Joyce’s wildcat move has mauled the Flying Kangaroo

Song Bird says:

09:57am | 30/10/11

You seem to know a lot about it Nick, NOT!  If only it were so simple.  The QANTAS PR Machine has been in overdrive for weeks and this is exactly what they want us to think. Take a look at what Hugh Riminton and Nick Xenophon have to say on the matter.

Mark W says:

10:12am | 30/10/11

Dead right. Greedy unions, they are already paid more than there worth.
Whens Gillard going to step in and put a stop to thier outrages claims, or is she going to keep looking the other way for her Union mates.

Erick says:

10:21am | 30/10/11

If the workers have a right to strike, then so do the corporations.

Against the Man says:

10:45am | 30/10/11

The useless waste of space you call a PM is hiding in Perth and IGNORING the problem. What can she do other than to make it worse. At least Rudd would have rounded up his celebrity mates to calm things down. Gillard would end up selling Qantas to Singapore for a $1 and high five everyone about it!

Rose says:

12:04pm | 30/10/11

Maybe Erick, but you clearly missed the bit whereunions must give 72 hours notice. Joyce gave no notice and made it very clear he is not prepared to act in good faith. He has done irreversible damage to the Qantas brand.

Dave says:

12:33pm | 30/10/11

virgin Blue staff don’t have wide body aircraft so they don’t need a licence to operate machinery they also don’t do push backs it’s all manual load so hence the cheaper rate.Nick you need to get your facts and info correct before you start gobbing off at Qantas staff.Ramp employees are skilled at operating machines required to unload and load aircraft,and then push back aircraft for departure, as i said Virgin don’t do this.Qantas don’t tell the public that the staff took a pay freeze to help company out when they were struggling that was two EBA’s ago then record one billion dollar profit then it was 3% increase over 3years still well behind the CPI but Geoff Dixon walks with a 12million dollar handshake and a further 9 million from Joyce to help him out now Joyce gets a pay rise of 2million and don’t forget James Strong he’s still involved, there all in bed together Qantas management is so top heavy it’s not funny and all the staff are asking for is about 1 dollar an hour increase and job security instead of bringing contractors which will affect public because all safety will go out the door because there is a large turnover of staff who are unskilled and not qualified. The public are not informed enough of what is really going on by Qantas and the unions.And if you call 21dollars an hour well above the rate then your kidding yourself.

Pilby says:

12:41pm | 30/10/11

Of course if you think the unions are paid more than their worth suely you must agree that Alan joyce is paid more than he is worth??

Kev says:

01:13pm | 30/10/11

So the unions are claiming that baggage handlers are underpaid ...Just what does a baggage handler do for their current wage of $40K a year plus overtime and super ..The calim & situation is way out of proportion any fit person can do this job ...agreed its a menial task but the dollars should reflect that…a tradesperson lives on a smaller income for a number of years and then sits his indenture exams, he then has a few more years of steady pay increases before he can reach a good income. Baggage handlers pick up bags and operate a baggage train and a loading conveyor ...seems like they are trying to claim brain surgeons wages for a tea lady’s input. (no disrespect to tea lady’s intended)

gobsmack says:

01:57pm | 30/10/11

Yes corporations have the right to withdraw their services which is why Qantas should never have been privatised.
Since privatisation, Qantas has gone downhill.  It’s been only a matter of luck that a plane hasn’t fallen out of the sky.
Personally, I would prefer to board a plane which has competent pilots and has been serviced thoroughly by the engineers than board one that happens to belong to an airline that is committed to cutting corners and reducing staff costs to increase its profitability.
The only thing that sets Qantas apart from other airlines is its safety record.  Employing some overpaid hack who doesn’t grasp that basic fact will lead to its demise.  The individual shareholders (as opposed to the institutional shareholders) realise that and made their concerns known at the shareholder meeting.  Unfortunately, the herd mentality prevails at the big end of town.

John A Neve says:

02:14pm | 30/10/11

Nick,
Just who or what is “working class Australia”?
This country, be it good or bad is built on the Labor movement. Yes, I know there are still a few squatters around and yes, they still hold, in many cases the purse strings of our country. But ask yourself where would you be without the uniom movement?

Mrniceguy351 says:

03:16pm | 30/10/11

Dave, any idiot can drive those machines that move and unload planes. Give anyone of reasonable intelligence a shot and they’d have it sussed in a day or two.

chris says:

03:30pm | 30/10/11

I fully support qantas in their move and will always fly them, why because they have the guts to stand up for their company, and not comply with the outdated unionists.

Unions have continued to drive up prices of everything. From building to travel, to the cost of driving, and we all suck it and deal with it, well now a company has again stood up to a union and we are all bagging them, GOOD WORK QANTAS!

Bella says:

05:09pm | 30/10/11

And there I was thinkling we had unions for power of the employees over greedy monsters like Alan Joyce and Qantas corporate greed !  That unions fought for the rights of everyman to a fair go…

Tch Tch I forgot, unions are there just to annoy everyone…

Occupy Qantas I say !

DaveO says:

05:37pm | 30/10/11

You’re a troll or a fool.  Most likely both.

Labor is Toxic says:

08:27pm | 30/10/11

The Unions want to play their silly games and they got what they deserved. QANTAS International is losing money and they want more. The Unions wanted to drag this out until Christmas then cause havoc calling 12hr strikes around the holiday period. Good luck with that!!!

Joyce’s decision ends it all .... do you understand ..... his decision ENDS IT ALL!!!! TERMINATION WILL END IT ALL!!! Could all be ended by the end of November.

No more industrial action ..... back to work ...... sort it out!!!

Rimmington is just a lothesome journalist who’s opinion is garbage!!!

Labor is Toxic says:

08:27pm | 30/10/11

The Unions want to play their silly games and they got what they deserved. QANTAS International is losing money and they want more. The Unions wanted to drag this out until Christmas then cause havoc calling 12hr strikes around the holiday period. Good luck with that!!!

Joyce’s decision ends it all .... do you understand ..... his decision ENDS IT ALL!!!! TERMINATION WILL END IT ALL!!! Could all be ended by the end of November.

No more industrial action ..... back to work ...... sort it out!!!

Rimmington is just a lothesome journalist who’s opinion is garbage!!!

TC says:

09:35pm | 30/10/11

Anyone who simply states “Its the unions fault” really has their head up their rear end.  Erick- “if unions can strike then so can corporations”..indeed so does that mean workers can give themselves obscene pay increases as well.  If anyone thinks this tosser has gone about this the right way they are totally deluded.  Whatever side of politics you are on Joyce has stepped way over the mark and I really hope there are some serious consequences coming his way

Ricko says:

07:39am | 31/10/11

Nick - the idiocy of claiming Joyces deicision is the unions fault, ignores personal responsibility. The unions may have contributed to the circumstances, but Joyce made the choice, and a choice he did not have to make at that.

I do think, given QANTAS’ profit margins, that the Unions claims are not economically responsible.

Labor is Toxic says:

08:06am | 31/10/11

An there you have it ....... TERMINATION!!!

Planes back in the air. No more industrial action.

No more strikes!!! No Christmas distruptions!!! Joyce was right!!!

Ps. My prediction is the future QANTAS International will be a shadow of what it is today. They will wind back operations in Australia so that it operates at a minor loss and establish/partner another airline out of Asia that will make money.

acotrel says:

08:12am | 31/10/11

If QANTAS cannot provide a reliable quality service, the should F#CK OFF !
  When a passenger buys a ticket there is a contract involved.  In the case of QANTAS there is an expectation that the journey will be safe, i.e. the risks are minimised to a level which is tolerable to all stakeholders.  If QANTAS is joining the lowest common denominator, they should have to compete for access to Australian airports on an equal basis for the rest of the world, and declare their disingenuous attitude to customer service and safety.
Allowing wages disputes to leave passenge rs stranded, is not on !

Labor is Toxic says:

09:46am | 31/10/11

@ Acotrel

What an ignorant little tantrum?? I find it amazing that you are so tolerant of unions who have stranded passengers because of wages disputes, but if QANTAS Management takes such action, it draws such profanity.

Or do you think when union action strands a customer, that QANTAS should have the right to employ ‘scabs’ to do the duties of striking employees because when a ‘passenger buys a ticket there is a contract involved’ and QANTAS should do everything possible to fulfill that contract?? I don’t think so!!!

Your’s is a very ignorant arguement!!

Joyce has minimised the risk of strikes over the Christmas period ....  this I believe was his end-game ...... ensuring 100’s of 1000’s of travellers would not be effected by strikes over this period holiday period. Good job Mr. Joyce

Christian Real says:

05:54am | 05/11/11

Nick
It is time that you and other bloggers put the blame where it really lies instead of passing the buck and blaming the unions or the current Government.
The blame lies with the CEO of Qantas, and regardless of how many times you or other bloggers puts spin on this issue, the fact will not change that the fault and the blame will alway remain with the CEO of Qantas,he is the person that called this ‘wildcat’ strike, deliberately grounding his airline and the full responsibility of this issue lies firmly upon his shoulders,and his shoulders only.

Christian Real says:

06:12am | 05/11/11

Against the Man (boy)
It appears that the Qantas CEO deliberately called this strike,grounding all of the Qantas fleet when he did, full knowing that the Prime Minister would not be able to respond immediately because she was locked into a Commonwealth Heads of Government meeting in Perth..
The responsibility and blame for the grounding of Qantas planes lies firmly upon the shoulders of the Qantas CEO .

James says:

10:23am | 30/10/11

What’s it got to do with the Govenment? You want a capitalist free market, you got it. An Airline that doubles it profit, and still wants more is fair enough I suppose. The Unions played by the Industrial Relations Rules, and the Company Didn’t. It’s black and white. And any reasonable person can accept the hypocrisy of the timing, shutting down the Airline right after Joyce get’s a huge payrise, yet denying a modest payrise and a claim for Job security.

spaz says:

01:08pm | 30/10/11

dovif- you clearly don’t understand IR. 1. The government were warned only 3 hours before. 2. The government legally could not act until their was a real threat to the Australian economy OR Qantas/unions asking for their help…..Qantas never asked! 3. The government started to act at 2PM yesterday not 5 hours after Joyces press conference. 4.If you think Qantas should be based overseas as an Asian airline support Qantas management, if you want it to remain an iconic Australian business support the workers. I don’t like Qantas so I don’t give a rats.

Al says:

04:38pm | 30/10/11

“The government were warned only 3 hours before”

Really Spaz??? Then why was Jetstar warned THREE DAYS BEFORE?

dovif says:

05:25pm | 30/10/11

Spaz

The aviation safety authority (ie a government agency) told Qantas on 17/10 that the strike by the Union was threatening the Safety of Qantas and for 13 days the government did nothing to protect the safety of Australians? I think most people would think this is a threat to Australian Economy and safety

The strike has been on for 2 months, with many business complaining the union action is hurting their business and this incompetant union does nothing

In fact the ministers seem to be saying we do not know, we were never told, which is a stupid person’s defense

Rose says:

09:01pm | 30/10/11

According to Joyce the decision to ground Qantas was only made that morning, so please enlighten us, how did Jetstar get warned 3 days earlier. Seems to me that Joyce is not only an industrial thug but also a big, fat liar!!

sean says:

10:19pm | 30/10/11

Under the FWA the Minister (Albanese) can intervene directly - the FW tribunal is not required. Albanese could have just said under Section 424,431 go back to work..He and the govt chose not to. Gillards FWA widened the scope of matters that could be negotiated such as the unions call for “guaranteed” job security ( and no responsible company could agree to that). Well done govt..

Against the Man says:

05:28am | 31/10/11

Interesting point sean. Looks like once again the Gillard/ALP are in the middle of another screw up. I’m sure a competent government would have seen this coming. I’m sure a government not influenced by unions would have reacted swiftly. No excuses from THIS government, just another stuff up to add to the list.

Michelle says:

10:26am | 31/10/11

Yes the Government could intervene directly and order an immediate termination but the government clarified this issue this morning. That Law is untested (ie its never been enacted)  and the likely outcome is it would have ended in front of the high court which could have taken weeks to determine if it was legal or not- the government chose to take the safer option. I notice there are a lot of supposed experts commenting in hindsight. The government on this are damned if they do damned if they don’t. Blaming the government is a pointless exercise and one I hate- nobody put a gun to QANTAS’s head- they have had lots of choices in this process over the last 3 months. If it was such a drama why didn’t QANTAS go to FWA before now instead of waiting for the govt to act- nothing was stopping them doing that. This whole thing smacks of political point scoring from the big end of town trying to overthrow a government.

Col Sanderes says:

10:08am | 30/10/11

Sounds like you would do well in Mexico or India Fran. All that insurance and workplace health and safety crap. Should be able to just get rid of the ones that can no longer pull their weight and get a newie.

Martin says:

10:25am | 30/10/11

@Col. Typical unionist comment. It may come as a surprise to you but most people in Australia have moved on from the 1970’s and no longer appreciate or sympathise with union thuggery and greedy pay and conditions claims, especially when most Australians are not unionists and do not behave like this at their place of employment These unions were holding Qantas to ransom, so Qantas called their bluff . Good on Qantas for standing up to these unions.

Shaun says:

10:44am | 30/10/11

Your admitting to illegal discrimination are you Fran? Refusing to hire somebody because they are a member of a union is HIGHLY illegal. I hope someone tracks down your IP address and launches action. Unions are what gave people the right to sick / carers / long service leave. Unions gave workers a meal break. Unions ensured that narrow minded employers like Alan Joyce ensured that workers were fairly remunerated for their labour, otherwise employers would pay them at slave wage rates (look at the minimum wage in the US as a prime example)

Fran Smith says:

10:44am | 30/10/11

@ Col - if my business had been subject to the same thuggish tactics that Qantas has been, I’d be out of work, my staff would have lost their jobs, and I would have lost my home (which I used to get a bank loan to set up my business). Qantas has only been able to survive the damage caused by the trade unions due to its size. A small business owner like me would be sent bankrupt if subjected to the same ordeal.

This is why I refuse to hire anyone who is a union member. To protect my staff, myself, and my family.

craig says:

10:44am | 30/10/11

really ....you never hire unionists in your bussiness…...so you are admiting to breaking the law?.....thats illegal, so your a criminal…..thats like not hiring someone coz of there colour or religious beliefs…

Fran Smith says:

11:06am | 30/10/11

@ Shaun and Craig - you can’t get a job on a building site or on the wharves unless you are a trade union member. You have to belong to a trade union if you want to join the ALP. Where is your indignation now? Are you going to launch legal action against the CFMEU, the ALP and others because of their discriminatory practices?

Shaun, your threat to ‘track down’ my IP address just proves what a bunch of cowardly thugs trade unions and their (few) supporters are. What else are you going to do? Picket my business? Intimidate my staff and customers? You’ve done more to prove what a bunch of neanderthals trade unionists are with your threat than I could do with a thousand words on this forum.

Ask yourselves - why do 85% of Australian workers REFUSE to join a trade union.

DJ says:

11:11am | 30/10/11

So when Craig can’t win an argument on facts, he pulls a ‘strawman argument’ by bring in the race card? Way to go, buddy.

Col Sanders says:

11:36am | 30/10/11

Fran aren’t the workers going to lose their jobs anyway? Isn’t this what it is all about? Don’t the workers(unionists) have homes, benefits, entitlements futures to lose also?  QANTAS had a parochial following not because it was cheap but because its Pilots, maintenance and safety record were exemplary and what other airlines aspired to . All that is already being outsourced if anyone has destroyed the brand it is Mr Joyce and his board..

craig says:

11:55am | 30/10/11

my point is that it is illegal NOT to hire someone because they belong to a union….......thats all, and as i said it is the same as not hiring someone because of race or religion….....to do either is illegal

Pilby says:

12:45pm | 30/10/11

No doubt you would never hire an aboriginal or a Homosexual Either Fran.
Please let me know the name of your business so I never give you my custom

Martin says:

01:06pm | 30/10/11

@Pilby. Fran never said anything of the kind. Typical leftist tactics, smear with grubby insinuations that are factless.

Stick with the argument at hand Pilby, the point I guess is that unionists are just doing themselves a great disservice with this sort bitter prolonged dispute. No wonder only 8% of the workforce is part of a union, everyone else wants to keep their job!!!

Paul M says:

01:08pm | 30/10/11

You do not need to be a member of a union to join the Labor Party Fran.

Rose says:

01:35pm | 30/10/11

Fran, the only possible reason I can see that an employer would have a blanket no union member employee rule is so that they can screw their employees over. They are clearly counting on the employee either not knowing their rights and/or realising that they are such little fish that they could never win a fight against an unscrupulous boss.
Trade unions have been instrumental in ensuring that Australians have a reasonable standard of living. It’s true that some have used tactics that make them no better than some of the worst bosses, but most unions are simply trying to ensure employees are protected. If we do see an end to unions in this country, we will also see an end to reasonable work conditions, while we continue to see scum bosses like Joyce being paid multi-million dollar salaries for screwing the employees and customers over.
If unions and employers both sat at the table in good faith (something Joyce had obviously never intended to do) there would never be a need for the kind of behaviour that we have seen in this dispute. In this case though it seems Joyce was only ever interested in setting up an easy out so he can relocate to Asia, he doesn’t appear to have ever intended to negotiate!

Go UNIONS says:

02:00pm | 30/10/11

Fran, the likes like you would screw the workers to the bare bone and indeed try.  Thank God for Unions.
Only have to look at the Chile Mining Disaster to see what happens without Unions ready to stand by Workers.  You would do well in Chile and no doubt sleep well if you had owned the mine with the 33 workers.

Keith Hammersmith says:

02:09pm | 30/10/11

Fran how dare you risk your home in order to create a business and employment!
Do you not know that unions are entitled to your business?? So what if you took all the risk to create those jobs,  that’s not the unions problems is it!  So what if your business becomes un-profitable if you can not source something off shore - again that’s not the unions problem is it!

with out people like Fran,  - Business owners,  there would be no jobs for anyone,  I also own a business, and i source what i can off shore to stay profitable so that my employees that i do keep here remain employed.

It is funny that the remarks people have made shows how paranoid unions are,  for example “Fran, the only possible reason I can see that an employer would have a blanket no union member employee rule is so that they can screw their employees over.” from Rose,  - talk about jumping to conclusions.
I also am against unions,  but i treat my staff well and to presume other wise is a poor argument.

LDLS says:

02:15pm | 30/10/11

If you’re doing the right thing by your employees why do you refuse to hire a union member?

Says a lot about you Fran no matter what a person’s view is on the matter. Figures about union membership etc are irrelevant and have nothing to do with someone refusing to hire a person simply because they choose to be a union member.

Afraid your practices will get you caught out?  I had a boss like you once..  The worst boss I ever had and I’ve run my own businesses as well.  Unions didn’t scare me.

FYI my father fought the unions that you disparage so much and I supported him fully when he refused to join them or make his workers join them - remember the Painters and Dockers Union? - so I certainly am not a union person but your argument is flawed.

Try sticking to the basic fact that solely due to a person being a union member you refuse to employ them and argue that alone.

Justinvw says:

02:28pm | 30/10/11

@Pilby. I can see where Fran is coming from.  I run a small business, a few years ago I hired a woman who was very union oriented and she was a pain and a disruption to the other staff and myself.  I also hired a homosexual aboriginal chap, he was a great worker.  It is all about attitude and a belief of entitlement.  No need to bring race or sexual preference into it.

Jason says:

02:48pm | 30/10/11

Fran, you’re just one more business person blaming the unions. Nothing ever changes. How do business persons such as yourself reconcile the fact that the share price has dropped almost 70% on Joyce’s watch, no dividends to the shareholders for 2 years and then Joyce gets a whopping big bonus?

QE10 says:

03:02pm | 30/10/11

I don’t blame Fran Smith for doing whatever it takes to avoid any possibility of union interference in her business.
One of the reasons the Australian government is a monumental failure is that unionists are running it.
Union membership numbers continue to fall because modern working conditions are mostly civilised and fair. Within large corporations where union organisers wield a large and overbearing presence, union membership barely remains static.

Ruairi says:

03:31pm | 30/10/11

“You have to belong to a trade union if you want to join the ALP.”

Apparently the ALP isn’t aware of this rule, since I was a member for a number of years without ever having been a member of a union.

Also agree with the above that if you don’t hire union members because they’re union members, then you’re breaking the law.  Please let us know what your business is so that I can report you to the relevant authorities.

Katie says:

04:32pm | 30/10/11

Okay Frans attitude is not legal and not one I would recommend. 
However it was not long ago where unions strong armed businesses.  Where no construction could be done by people who were not members of unions.  I clearly remember the huge billboard sized signs advertising this.  What is it? “No ticket - No start” that was then thier policy- google it.  Many unions still subscribe to this idea even though it is now illegal. 
The people on here who belong to unions and criticise Fran are hypocrites.  Because they pay duties to belong to organisations that are/were happy to discriminate against people based on thier union membership preference.

QE10 says:

04:54pm | 30/10/11

Ruairi:  Your comment reflects the ugly, nasty stand-over tactics associated with unions.  Maybe you would like to see her receive a warning shovel on her doorstep aye?

Pure thuggery.

Gaby says:

05:47pm | 30/10/11

I’m with you Fran.  The rest of you who have resorted to name calling, threats and bullying should be bloody ashamed of yourself.

Unions are bullies. I have seen them picket and shut down a hospital, denying life saving medication to the Drs and Nurses stuck inside and not allowing anyone in or out of the hospital - all because of a few measly dollars!!  That was my first dealing with unions and let me tell you nothing has changed my mind about them since.  The fact of the matter is that people dont have the money to travel anymore, the numbers are down, so for these unions to demand pay rises and a promise that nothing will go offshore is ludicrous.  The reality is that if this ‘negotiation’ process continued Qantas would be dead in the water and none of those union whingers would have a job…. If I was in a union I would be asking why it was taking them this long to get a resolution… but thank god I am not… what you are seeing here is unions working their members up with false promises resulting in a mob mentality…...

Sweetbean says:

06:33pm | 30/10/11

Fran - you are breaching anti-discrimination legislation and the Fair Work Act with your hiring policies.  Read it and then go get yourself some legal advice. You’ll need it when you are inevitably pulled up on it.

Fiona says:

09:27pm | 30/10/11

My hubbie has worked for the same large company for years. At the start it was a non union workshop. He’s only joined the union in the last couple of years, since they’ve offered less than CPI increases and generally whittled away any benefits that made them orginally one of the top 10 employers in the country. They are no longer in this list. All that union does is negotiate for them at enterprise bargaining time.
Same with mine, the QNU. Personally, I think anyone that works in the health care area without being in a union is mad.

TC says:

09:39pm | 30/10/11

erm…..it wasn’t the unions that shut the whole thing down with no notice.  Fair enough some people don’t like unions but to lay the blame at their door for this disgrace makes you look like a fool

Levi Stubbs says:

10:34pm | 30/10/11

Fran, you DO realise that it is illegal to discriminate against potential employees on the basis of their union membership?

Borderer says:

09:15am | 31/10/11

I work in construction in a managerial capacity, I’ve seen what unions do to ordinary guys and them making a living. Rather than making a comprimise or a deal they are more interested in exercising their power through industrial action and recruiting members through fear tactics. Unions as a worker funded body no longer serve their members but rather the political careers of its officers (look at parliment). The unions, like the labour party need to be decimated so that they can rediscover their true objective and that is to serve all the workers, $700.00 a year so you can be told not to work in a good job….. who does that serve? Are unions necessary, yes but not in their current incarnation.

Pilby says:

09:26am | 31/10/11

@ Martin
Maybe you should allow Fran to speak for herself Martin instead of dribbling your right wing tripe to everyone.

Kath says:

10:27am | 31/10/11

@Fran Smith - Actually, the unions were acting legally here and are protected from civil action.  Qantas is also protected by the same law from being sued, as they complied with the process set out in the Fair Work Act.

It’s the same law that gives the right for a person to chose to either be or not be a union member and prevents employers from discriminating because a potential employee is or is not a union member.  Called Freedom of Association and was also in the “Workchoices” version of the legisation.

Martin says:

12:22pm | 31/10/11

@ Pilby. Get stuffed. Yeah, we’ll just sit back and watch a whole bunch of left wing grubs jump on her back waffling crap about illegalities etc. If it was your hard earned going down the gurgler because of an ars*≤ employee causing strife then I really like to see what you would do. Knowing Labor clowns hypocrisy would come into play very quicklly.

Kika says:

02:15pm | 31/10/11

Do you know why trade unions resort to muscle? To restore the balance of power between employer and employee. If it weren’t for trade unions and the advent of workers rights we’d all be working in industrial revolution type scenarios of the big boss man, working all day all night for a scrap.

Kilroy says:

10:00am | 30/10/11

Next time you fly Qantas, be sure to tell the pilot he is a union thug.
Joyce has done more to trash the Qantas brand than any union has. Take off the capitalist blinkers.

Martin says:

10:57am | 30/10/11

@Kilroy. I’ll be quite happy to tell the pilot that Kilroy.  Trouble is I stopped flying Qantas because the cabin crew are rude, I guess they are too busy whinging about pay and conditions to each other. Flew last time with Thai Airways much better, very pleasant crew, no problems.

As for your cheap shot re capitilsm, these Qantas workers are already paid over industry standard, so who’s being greedy.

The unions started the dispute, Kilroy, not Joyce. His actions have been purely reactionary, to proect the interests of the company.

Austin 3:16 says:

11:39am | 30/10/11

—-  His actions have been purely reactionary, to proect the interests of the company.—-

Are you sure that’s what he’s doing? Doesn’t seem to be having that effect.

nossy says:

11:50am | 30/10/11

@Kilroy I wouldnt take any notice of what Martin says Kilroy as hes a clueless as they come. This dispute is all about globalising QANTAS’s workforce thus cutting wages and costs, which the company has every right to do. However given the huge profits QANTAS makes and the huge bonuses QANTAS management get no wonder the average working person at QANTAS is worried about his/her future given they are the ones who will lose out - Martin would be worried to if he could get a job as a baggage handler but suspect hes quite happy on Centrelink NEWSTART! As for Martin telling a Pilot face to face he is a thug well that will never happen - dream on Martin!  hhahahah

Phil says:

12:28pm | 30/10/11

@Kilroy, I’m happy to tell any unionist I meet what I think of them and regularly do. They are scumbag bully boys, they are a disgrace, they should grow up and be reasonable. Their threats, intimidation, blatant lies and BS are clear for all to see. The union leaders are just after an easy seat in parliament or a cushy job as staffer or hanger on.

I’m at a loss to see how anyone with even half a conscience could support them and their tactics. They ask for greedy pay rises and conditions that most of use don’t get and then blame everyone else for the problems in this country.  Why do many unionists get 9 day fortnights, an extra RDO each month and all sorts of other cushy perks and conditions when there is no justification for it. (really who gets 11% guaranteed over 3 years - almost 4% locked in no matter what and regardless of performance ??
It is clearly unfair and they are nothing but greedy, and I kind of hope that Qantas goes under to teach them a lesson.

Is is just me or has there been a massive increase in strike activity recently ? Methinks they are flexing their muscle while they can, cause they sure as hell are f***** come next election.

Pilby says:

12:48pm | 30/10/11

Union Versus Capitalist Thuggery

No doubts as to who will win that battle!!!

Martin says:

01:25pm | 30/10/11

Listen Nossy, I’ve had a front up a couple of times with union tools sprouting rubbish on the street, so I’ll be quite happy to have a go with a Qantas pilot.

As for your clueless comment, sorry to say it’s your union mates that are clueless. They wanted to play the brinkmanship game and now they have been checkmated by Joyce. LMFAO Nossy.

As for the personal insults Nossy, water of a duck’s back. I suspect the Centrelink comment may well be a Freudian slip on your part, you know NEWSTART being sort of top of mind for your good self at the moment. No embarrasment there Nossy every good Labor chap must have his nose in the government trough somewhere right?

@Phil. Agreed strikes have definitely increased recently, little wonder why. The end result of this thuggery by the unions will be lost jobs, yet they continue with their action, with little regard for the jobs of their members. Probably the most prudent thing Joyce could have done is ground the fleet, it’s brought this to head quickly all parties must now try and break the deadlock. It was smart move on his part, and the union dudes would know that, they just would never admit it.

nossy says:

03:10pm | 30/10/11

@Martin   hahaha you have had anothe rgo and still dont understand what the dispute is about you gormless twit - honestly fella do Australia a favour , get off the dole and go and get a bloody job - theres a good boy!

nossy says:

03:14pm | 30/10/11

@Kilroy dont listen to poor old Phil either Kilroy - loves a good drink he does then he says he wants to fight everyone!  hahahha Ohhh they are coming out of the woodwaork today - all the gormless chinless wonders!
Pour another scotch Phil!  hahahahha While you are at it pour one for pour old Martin!

Chris says:

04:09pm | 30/10/11

It is great that Qantas is trying to stick up to the unions.  Just look at the us postal service the are going broke and have some 5000 people employed who have no job because they’re Unionized. It is a total Jolene that we allow these unions to run this nation

Kilroy says:

04:32pm | 30/10/11

Good work nossy
I’ll put in a word to Rosie for you.

Martin says:

09:29am | 31/10/11

@Nossy what a childish lot of rot. I reread that first bit of bullshit you wrote here. You are the one on drugs. Firstly you rave on about the airline being globalised, then agree that’s the airlines perogative. Then you change tack to some sort of abstract nonsense about huge profits and bonuses and people being worried about their jobs? If they are making huge profits, then why would they lose their jobs? Then you have some bizarre shyte to say about me and Centrelink. Fair dinkum, none of it makes any sense, and then you get on here and call people “gormless” twits. Mate, you need help.

jf says:

12:47pm | 30/10/11

The fact that Joyce is grossly overpaid (though in line with his grossly overpaid peers) has nothing to do with the the Qantas employees claims.

The unions are like bloody children complaining that even though they’ve got an ice cream, the spoiled kid next to them got three scoops and they only got two.

Get back to work you bludgers. You earn many more times the national wage for performing a cushy job with cushy benefits and almost no risk.

As to overpaid corporate execs, that’s the shareholders responsibility and momentum is building there as well http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/companies/sevior-backs-executive-two-strikes-pay-rule/story-fn91v9q3-1226179957662

Shareholders. United. Will never be defeated.

gobsmack says:

02:03pm | 30/10/11

It’s because of the pilots and engineers that Qantas has such a good safety record (and that record is the only thing that gives it its competitive edge).
Hacks that attempt to increase profit by cutting corners and reducing staff costs are a dime a dozen.

jf says:

06:06pm | 30/10/11

gobsmack says:03:03pm | 30/10/11

“It’s because of the pilots and engineers that Qantas has such a good safety record (and that record is the only thing that gives it its competitive edge).”

Maybe. So exactly how many times the national average wage do you think they should earn.

Mayday says:

12:16pm | 30/10/11

The vote of confidence by the shareholders was all Mr Joyce needed to kick the TWU’s arse.

Now ALL of Qantas staff is being mucked about because a few tyrants under the title of Union Representative want job security and wage increases without improving productivity.

Hugh was so anguished at the Qantas CEO he couldn’t even find the right Mr Joyce just like he doesn’t seem to have the right facts in relation to the events unfolding!

We have to compete with Asia and no one will ever have a profitable business with outmoded thinking and entitled attitudes telling management how to run any business. 

Airlines are struggling as it is without industrial disputes over job security, the Unfair Dismissal Laws changed that years ago.

Welcome to the real world in 2011!

Ben says:

02:17pm | 30/10/11

He probably deserves the pay rise given how much shit he has to shovel because of the unions.

John A Neve says:

06:46pm | 30/10/11

Mayday,
I’d suggest the bulk of Quantas’ shares are held by super funds, banks and insurance companies. They in fact vote with your money, supported by “96%” shareholders B—-S—-. What you have here is a case of big business, supporting big business.

Lee Enfield,
I fail to see how this warranted government intervention?
In a free enterprize system (we are one, aren’t we?), both parties are covered by industrial legistlation. So there is no need for government’s to take any action.

hawker says:

10:40am | 30/10/11

I wonder how much they pay their PR flacks, Lee.

craig says:

10:49am | 30/10/11

sound like you know to much about this to be a just someone from the street…........and you care a little to much….....ALAN

Pilgrim says:

11:04am | 30/10/11

The facts of the matter that the media are not reporting. This is another way the Unions are decimating the manufacturing and other industries in Australia. Higher wages and conditions are the sole reason that all our industries are being purchased by overseas companies and moved overseas. Almost all our products that were once manufactured here are now imported. Stupid thinking.

Lee Enfield says:

11:25am | 30/10/11

Don’t work for Qantas, all this information is readily available to everyone with simple google searches.  The reason I have an interest is I am flying to Europe at Christmas time with Qantas, although, thanks to the Unions, it seems unlikely it will be happening.

The fact is if it was just about pay there wouldn’t be an issue, but it is about the unions flexing their muscle and dictating to the company how the business should be run and the future direction of the company.

Why should Qantas be forced to pay higher wages than their Australian competitors, why aren’t the Unions placing the same demands on Virgin in regards to pay, conditions, benefits, business practices, job security, and having two Virgin payed and funded union officials to the tune of $1million a year.

If it was just about pay and beneifts, the unions would not be striking as Qantas staff in all sectors are the best renumerated employees in the industry. This is all about Union power, nothing more, nothing less.

PTom says:

12:47pm | 30/10/11

Lee,
You are wrong, $150K package is not high for engineer go look on seek.com.au,  As for the perks every bank offers lots of perks to staff, some can save up to thousands.

Workers are asking for about 5% pay increase + about $5,000-$10,000 in perks yet there boss got 71% pay increase.  Go on tell a cleaner they can’t have pay raise because it was spent all on the boss.

“as Qantas workers are the highest paid in their industry.” was that a management statement. Just because you get $1 more then a Jetstar worker might make the statement true but is meanless when compare to community wages.

A Spade's a Spade says:

12:58pm | 30/10/11

Lee, you seem quite sure that you are not a Qantas representative, so then I wonder why you would make this statement in your previous post

“Last year the TWU negotiated a deal with Virgin, our biggest competitor in the domestic market,”

By saying “our” seems to imply that one of your posts contradicts the other. I don’t care either way (I am a loyal passenger and shareholder of Qantas) but am just saying I note the contradictions..

Steve Putnam says:

01:12pm | 30/10/11

Well, as you explained in your posting Lee, the QANTAS employees demands are tiny compared to the 70% Joyce has just given himself. A case of don’t do as I do, do as I say if ever there was one.
Which ever way you look at it Joyce has given other airlines an opportunity to bury QANTAS.

I hate pies says:

01:38pm | 30/10/11

PTom - the QANTAS ‘engineers’ aren’t professionals; they are plane mechanics…I believe you are being deliberately misleading.
Given that the CPI is 3-3.5% a 5% rise is excessive - throw in $10k p.a. in perks and it becomes ridiculous.
How far do you think Joyce’s payrise would go around QANTAS employees? His pay rise is immaterial compared to QANTAS’ annual wages bill, and any suggestion other wise is typical union bollocks designed to create an us-against-them mentality. The type of work done, responsibility and potential ramifications of errors between Joyce and the workers is incomparable - you know it and I know it. Comparing Joyce’s pay with the workers pay is comparing apples and oranges.

PTom says:

02:26pm | 30/10/11

“PTom - the QANTAS ‘engineers’ aren’t professionals; they are plane mechanics…I believe you are being deliberately misleading.”

Really did I call them Engineers first. NO. Interesting that you never question Lee Enfield where he got that figure from? May be Lee is just doing like some that quote cleaners are making $150K in Qantas but that BS would be caught out to easily.

BTW If they are Engineers then $150K would not be out of the market. If they are mechanics then that is different.

Mrniceguy351 says:

04:19pm | 30/10/11

When you talk about engineers in regard to Qantas, they are actually plane mechanics, as far as I’m aware they don’t actually have an engineering degree. They can fix the plane, but they couldn’t design a new one.

Chris says:

05:06pm | 30/10/11

@ PTOM ; it seems you support the workers, do you work for the union. I keep hearing about the 71% pay rise the boss has recieved. But people seem to not know that he actually took a pay cut, almost 80% of his pay is geared to KPI’s being met.

In saying that Alan Joyce has pretty much just thrown all of his pay down the drain yesterday and probably for the next 12 months.

It is annoying for the customers, I am one bu the unions need to be broken.

Just look at this like the current American Airlines situation, there is speculation that they are about to file for Chap 11 - restructure to break the deadlock with its unionised work force.

United Airlines had done the same in their recent chap 11 restructure, TWA was driven into the ground by unionised work force, along with Air Canada. We can not allow unions to drive companies into the ground the way they are.

With low cost carriers continuing to dominate the market with lower paid workers still under many of the TWA EBA’s why do QF Workers get more.

Fiona says:

10:22pm | 30/10/11

If what Lee Enfield says is true then it is greedy.
The “engineers” are called licenced aircraft engineers. They are a specialised field of maintenance fitting. 150k is a good wage, but not unheard of for this trade. The four days on, four days off is most likely because of a 10 hour day-40 hours. The rest, fair enough.

TC says:

10:24pm | 30/10/11

Lee what right have you to question anothers pay and conditions.  I am amazed at the amount of people who have a go at people wanting a pay rise.  Unless you have never asked or got a pay rise then you cannot comment.  I have a friend who slags off teachers/nurses/pilots etc looking for better pay and conditions but has walked into his bosses office 3 times in the last 18 months and demanded a pay rise otherwise he walks and all up he has increased his pay 30% without having to increase productivity or anything.  Is there any fundamental differences here.

While you are at it Lee why not get a breakdown of Joyces lovely little bonus.  The unions may be over the top but what this man has done is disgracefull and I personally question the motives of the man

Syl says:

10:18am | 31/10/11

TC

I love it!  Have a go at someone for questioning another’s pay, then do exactly the same thing in your next sentence regarding Joyces pay!

Congratulations, you win the hypocrite of the day award.

Labor is Toxic says:

11:20am | 31/10/11

Lee Enfield has earned a beer ..... but you should have published the site where you attained the information.

It’s all over now ..... TERMINATION!!! No more patheic little disruptive 1-hr strikes, then crying foul when flights are abandoned ...... no Christmas disruptions. So people can book their holidays with certainty.

I wonder who the ‘union officials’ were that were going to be paid, “at a cost of up to $1 million per year.” Maybe it was the same ignorant loud-mouth union reps that we see on the media. I now have to wonder how many other industries have to do the same.

@ Pilgrim ..... why do people listen to reporters. (which is why I enjoy this site ..... real people being published). If Rimmington published the ‘facts’ above there would be no doubt that many would side against the Union. All reporters do is play the wedge game!!! As stated in previous posts I believe that the media wanted Rudd in in 2007 because Australia was travelling to well. The inevitable chaos that encumbers Australia with every Labor Government sees more people watching the News and reading Newspapers.

1) Labor wins.
2) Labor breaks nearly everything they touch.
3) People read/watch more media.
4) Media revenues increase.

Why didn’t the media publish the failure of the 2010-11 Budget??
Why don’t they publish the real figures pertaining to boat people??

There is so much enotive conjecture when journalists spout their ignorat opinion ..... but when the facts are laid bare, as I believe Lee Enfirld has done, there is no debate!!!

TC says:

10:25pm | 01/11/11

syl I cannot see how I am being hypocritical. I simply stated that it was unfair to question the union demands without putting up Joyces conditions.  I make no comment on whether Joyce deserved it thereby not contradicting my main point.

So what award do you win for the day

Martin says:

11:04am | 30/10/11

Completely correct Super D

gobsmack says:

01:14pm | 30/10/11

If they wanted a union bashing CEO they probably could have got Reith for free.
No-one is worth that money.

Sony B Goode says:

03:11pm | 30/10/11

take out taxes and $2m becomes far less than $1m.

good on him, enjoy watching him smash the unions into oblivion and the scaby union lawyer who lied her way into the top job and is behind this pathetic un-Fair Work IR system.

Al says:

04:58pm | 30/10/11

What as?

An Assassin?

chris says:

08:17pm | 30/10/11

and as the bank CEO’s he is, this will just mean a Leaner, meaner qantas in the market. If AJ can topple the union movement a better Australia will prevail.

Fran Smith says:

10:36am | 30/10/11

@ Songbird - what proof do you have that ‘thousands’ of jobs are at risk of going overseas? You have none, because the fact is that no jobs are at risk. Stop falling for trade union propoganda and start researching the facts.

Song Bird says:

11:26am | 30/10/11

Fran, Qantas has already sent some jobs overseas and is not hiding the fact it plans to send more. Perhaps you need Google Nick Xenephon’s input!

Al says:

04:55pm | 30/10/11

Right there Song Bird. We are not getting the full story from either side so it makes many of these comments pointless.

Labor is Toxic says:

12:10pm | 31/10/11

No Fran Smith .... many jobs are going to go overseas. Just like manufacturing, call centres, accounting, retail, refining, metal processing ....... and when we have no minerals left to sell China, maybe we will startmaking some hard decisions.

Quantas will wind back its international operations ........ how far it is wound back is dependent on the Government and Unions.

Mike says:

10:19am | 30/10/11

What does being Irish have anything to do with it? My parents were born oversease. All you be telling them to go home? Ass hole.

Lee Enfield says:

11:29am | 30/10/11

Only if you tell Gillard the Welshwoman to go home first.

PTom says:

12:52pm | 30/10/11

Give the Englishman a ticket home too.

gobsmack says:

02:09pm | 30/10/11

Surely there are enough mediocre managers in this country without having to bring one in from overseas. 
“Oh, I just had a brilliant idea!  Let’s increase profitability by reducing staff costs and outsourcing jobs to asian countries.”
“What an outstandingly original plan, Joyce!  Here’s an extra 2 million.”

Max says:

09:07pm | 30/10/11

True Mike the problem isnt the fact he is Irish ; it is that he is another foreign CEO like Sol Trujillo who will take his bucket of money back home after he has screwed over an Australian company. They have no long term interest in companies in a country they are not planning to live in.

craig says:

10:51am | 30/10/11

SCAB

Lisa says:

11:22am | 30/10/11

Craig.  Post’s like yours illustrate why only 8% of the workforce want union representation.

Erick says:

12:01pm | 30/10/11

Well said, Lisa. People like Craig only hurt the unions.

Martin says:

12:06pm | 30/10/11

@Craig -SCAB???. Fair dinkum, these Labor people are really showing their colours aren’t they. No Craig, these unionists are the scabs because they are already paid over the odds and want more.

As LIsa said, little wonder only 8% of the workforce is unionised. What employee needs this sort of representation. Because of this union brinkmanship, many of these employees could lose their jobs, and that will be the unions fault, not Qantas. Losing $16 million a week cannot go on forever, Qantas had to take action and they have. Good luck to them.

Maree says:

10:53am | 30/10/11

Frank: Agree. I believe this is Alan Joyces long term aim. The government wants an international carrier to be successful, the government will have to come to the party and re-nationalise its operation. If we do not change from the way Qantas operates now, it will go broke eventually, or at best end up as I minor local carrier.

AdamC says:

11:59am | 30/10/11

Why wouId nationalising Qantas magically change anything, unless the government agreed to indefinitely underwrite losses? I don’t necessarily object to nationalising strategic businesses, so long as the public gets a decent return on its investment. But, given Qantas is unable to accomplish this with the greater discipline of being privately owned, why would it be able to do so as a government-owned sheltered workshop?

Mayday says:

12:23pm | 30/10/11

So the taxpayers have to bail out an airline company that loses money, now that would be a debacle.

gobsmack says:

02:13pm | 30/10/11

@AdamC
Nationalising Qantas would mean that decisions would once again be based on the public interest and safety rather than profit.

Timo says:

05:51pm | 30/10/11

So Qantas can continue making losses on international flights, unions can get ridiculous pay demands because Qantas will then be supported by Australian Tax dollars? Singapore airlines actually make money, I doubt Qantas if it’s nationalised.

Daniel D says:

10:08pm | 30/10/11

Exactly. QANTAS as an organisation makes a tidy profit and thus, could subsidise those segments of its routes that don’t, because that is in the national interest to do so. Similarly for maintaining standards in the airline.  It would not also have to meet insane profit targets to keep a greedy bunch of institutional investors happy.

All the while keeping money in Australia and in the Australian economy by employing Australians. Time for this false ideological nonsense that everything is better if it is privatised to be put to bed. Didn’t we learn enough with the airports themselves being sold off? Even QANTAS complains about landing and gate fees at Sydney - now its owned by Macquarie bank, who of course will milk that cash cow for everything its worth and deservedly so. Not many places are as stupid as our pollies in giving monopolies to the private sector for chicken feed.

Let Qantas go to the wall. Then Nationalise it and buy its assets back for a fraction of what the institutional investors paid for it, so they don’t profit from the mess they are helping perpetuate. Sorry for mum and dad investors, but the big end of town needs to learn a lesson. We need a national airline that represents the history, reputation and heritage of QANTAS. Not an Asian variation of Ryan Air.

Mike says:

10:22am | 30/10/11

Again… What the hell does Ireland have to do with this? Does this mean all I should believe all Australians are drug smugglers because a few get caught overseas? Ass hole

stevem says:

11:53am | 30/10/11

Being Irish has nothing to do with anything. Having held a senior position with Ryan Air, on the other hand does. Ryan’s reputation for ruthless cost cutting is well deserved and he was hired because of this. QANTAS’s behaviour is clearly aieemed at garnering public support for the time they close their Australian engineering workshops. They ceased training engineers on new aircraft several years ago and it is inevitable the rest of the fleet will be serviced overseas eventually. This is just the justification.

PTom says:

01:10pm | 30/10/11

So what about workers performance form the previous financial year?
What about the passengers that will lose money, what would have been so hard to give a 72 hours notice.

Col Croweater says:

01:12pm | 30/10/11

So given that Mr Joyce was give his payrise for his performance for a group. Why then did he decide to involve the same parts of the group who enabled him to get this payrise into this ridiculous debacle and along with that, the domestic travellers of Australia??? Domestic Pilots have made no demands or taken any strike action. Given that the Domestic arm of this group is performing well and is VERY profitable, can we expect when they do request a pay increase to cover the effects of inflation, that Mr Joyce will willingly give them that pay increase?? I think not. This grounding has not only affected one part of the operation, or one part of the group. It has affected tens of thousands of Travellers and thousands of Large and small businesses, some of whom will stand to lose Millions of Dollars. All because of Mr Joyces refusal to negotiate. For all of those who say the unions are thugs, or those like me who believe that the likes of Mr Joyce are thugs, When two thugs stand off with Joe public in between them, its Joe public that gets hurt the most. In this case the Union was mainly bluster and rhetoric, Now this clown has thrown a haymaker trying to bring down the unions and smacked everybody in the face. I won’t forget that and I hope nobody else does either.

LDLS says:

02:55pm | 30/10/11

Spot on Col Croweater!

Must be so easy to stand on the sidelines and mouth off about how good Joyce and Qantas are in kicking union butt but how about you look further into what is really going on rather than spout platitudes you only read in your favourite left or right version of media?

My partner has worked for a company for 30 years.  That company never retrenched a single worker during their time under a sole owner but he made the lousy decision to sell his baby to Qantas for a large fortune because it was so successful.. Hope he enjoys his 800+mill, he deserves it.

In a matter of months the CEOs and board grew and the workers are being laid off while they centralize all their operations.  The accountants are in charge and bugger the employees who have done nothing wrong but are no longer needed so costs can be cut down to pay shareholders and the board.

Way to go fatcats!  Strange how the same company supported its workers so well when one man was in charge and cared and now you wait daily to see who is next on their chopping block.

If you think for one minute that this is all about Joyce being such a great leader you’re idiots. The dollar signs are big and this just happens to be the story of the day because it is so public and can’t be ignored.

Mr Toecautter knows exactly why he was hired and he is doing that job really well.  If you have nothing to lose you’ll be patting him on the back for his great two finger job at the unions.  If you have seen what can happen to people who did nothing but their job well - but hey in today’s world that’s not enough because only money talks - then you’d start to realize just how bad this can be.

Mike says:

05:55pm | 30/10/11

Despite all your anger at Joyce’s moves, you will forget it and you will move on.
In an act of defiance, you will purchase tickets from a different airline. That airline will most likely be a low cost carrier. That low cost carrier will pay its employees less and be less unionised. The fact is, Qantas rates are enviable when compared to its overseas competitors. You will show your anger at Qantas by supporting another business that doesn’t have the same perks or rates that Qantas currently provides. You will blame management for destroying Qantas when in fact, you chose to support price rather than quality.

Take a look at the clothes you wear, the computers you use and the cars you drive. You hate the unions as much as anyone, you’re just disingenuous about it. You like your Bali holidays and your Taiwanese electronics. You felt upset about Ansett? But you loved it when Virgin and Air Asia replaced it. You will scream for murder, basterdise big businesses and scoff at anti-unionists. But in the end, you are anti-union. You cannot help but gorge on the benefits of a free market. You boo down Harvey Norman? Hey at least he’s still trying to flog Australian made goods, you got much Ikea stuff at your house?

This situation was created by Australians and by unions. Persistent demands to constantly increase wages have made nearly all internationally exposed companies uncompetitive. You think you deserve the pay that your getting, but want to compete globally? Then you’re going to have work a heck of a lot harder, because there’s 6 billion other people out there and a lot of them willing to work longer and cheaper than you. You say that’s not fair? Get in line son, world’s a bitch and then you die. Joyce gets paid to do his job. Ensure the continuation of a business, regardless of the form of that business. Nokia used to be a forestry business. What did you think happened to those workers when it became a phone company? Qantas may have to become a cheap, low fare business, that sound sad? Too bad, you’re not paying the premiums it charges when there are cheaper flights available.

Zaan says:

06:28pm | 30/10/11

Well said Mike

Song Bird says:

11:51am | 30/10/11

Hear hear Milo!

lapun says:

11:00am | 30/10/11

Virgin getting routes?  Something of an oxymoron!

palone says:

04:39pm | 30/10/11

Lapun.. Well done. They don’t understand. They think an oxymoron is a bloke that can’t weld.

PTom says:

01:34pm | 30/10/11

But how many do you think would have voted that way if they had known what joyce was about to pull.

Ben says:

02:41pm | 30/10/11

99% probably PTom.

jb says:

02:59pm | 30/10/11

@Tom
Probably 100%...

Kath says:

10:51am | 31/10/11

That’s 98% of votes at the meeting, including proxies, not necessarily 98% of shareholders.

Do you attend or proxy every AGM of a company in which you directly hold shares?

marley says:

11:20am | 30/10/11

What makes you think that because a pilot is foreign, he’s automatically less qualified?  Here’s a news flash - just because something is Australian, it doesn’t mean it’s necessarily better.

marley says:

11:52am | 30/10/11

No, I wouldn’t prefer to have “some random pilot with 200 hours experience” flying my plane.  I’d prefer to have a properly qualified, experienced pilot flying my plane. But I don’t give a damn whether that properly qualified pilot is Australian or Swedish or Malaysian or Singaporean.  All I care about is that he’s qualified.

Erick says:

12:07pm | 30/10/11

@marley - What makes you think that BobM’s comment was directed at foreign pilots? The only distinction he made was the number of flight hours’ experience the pilots had.

BobM says:

12:08pm | 30/10/11

200 hours training…..2,000-3,000 hours training. I know which one I’d prefer to be flying my plane…...

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2011-03-24/fears-grow-over-indias-fake-pilots/2645216

http://abcnews.go.com/Travel/pilot-seat-adjustment-accidently-plane-plunge-terrifying-7000/story?id=12285880

Oh those Indians…..

milo of Brizvegas says:

12:58pm | 30/10/11

Well marley I like to know the guy is qualified hasn’t just bought his licence or faked his experience (as happened just recently)
You have obviously forgotten that Tiger Airways had their air operator’s certificate in Australian airspace pulled by CASA until they improved the proficiency of Tiger Airways pilots in pilot training and checking processes, made changes to fatigue management, improvements to maintenance control and ongoing airworthiness systems and ensuring appropriately qualified people fill management and operational positions. Pretty Scary HUH?

BobM says:

12:58pm | 30/10/11

@marley. Here are some Canadian stats - doesn’t say much for the training of these pilots.

http://www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/airline_detail.cgi?airline=Air+Canada

Qantas = NO DEATHS

marley says:

01:34pm | 30/10/11

@Erick - I assumed Bob’s comment was directed towards foreign pilots because he talks about Qantas going offshore and using less qualified pilots.  Just because a pilot is not an Aussie, it doesn’t necessarily follow that he’s less qualified.  That’s my point.

marley says:

01:56pm | 30/10/11

Couple of points.  Yes, Tiger got grounded - while flying in Australian airspace with Australian crew.  The issue isn’t the nationality of the crew, its the quality of their training and the safety standards of the airline that employs them. 

I don’t understand why there is an automatic assumption that Qantas will lower standards for either training or safety if it hires offshore.  Do you really think it’s not going to check out the qualifications of its new hires?  Do you think it won’t provide offshore crews with the level of training it gives to its Aussie crews?  Do you think its going to let a pilot with 200 hours sit in the left-hand seat on a big passenger jet?  And really, does it matter a damn whether a flight attendant is Aussie or Malaysian, so long as he or she is given Qantas training?

As for Air Canada, well, the flying conditions in Canada are just a tad more difficult than those here.  I vividly recall being on a 747 that had to be de-iced three times while we waited in queue for take off.  That doesn’t happen much in Broken Hill.

Also, just so you know, a couple of those AC incidents were in fact examples of superlative airmanship - the DC9 that managed to land while on fire, and the infamous Gimli Glider, that ran out of fuel at 36,000 feet with the pilot gliding the plane in to a safe, unpowered landing on an abandoned military airstrip.  Seems to me like their training is just fine.

The point is, going offshore doesn’t automatically mean a drop in standards. And, as Tiger has proved, being onshore doesn’t mean high standards are a certainty.

Al says:

05:26pm | 30/10/11

Marley, you really don’t have a clue do you?

They have done it with their maintenance why wouldn’t they do it with their pilots as well?

How many images of QANTAS aircraft electrical cables held together with stationary staples do you need to see?

How many photos of the nose wheel collapse on the QANTAS 747 do you need to see?

How many photos of panels coming off QANTAS fuselages do you need to see?

How many photos of engine failures do you need to see?

How many QANTAS aircraft grounded due to safety reasons do you need to see?

How many exploded QANTAS oxygen bottles do you need to see?

All of this has been reported in the media over the years Joyce has been in charge.

Here is something to prompt your memory
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tArXdgRGcFg

How much do you have to see before you get your head out of the sand and realise this is purely dollar driven and nothing else?

marley says:

05:58pm | 30/10/11

@Al - and how many of those incidents have been confirmed to be the fault of offshore maintenance?  I don’t recall that the oxygen bottle or the exploding engine had anything at all to do with offshore maintenance.

Unionist says:

05:59pm | 30/10/11

@ Stuart says:12:06pm;  Bahahahaha I see your’e right onto it…. go back to your flat beer barfly and leave the intellegence to the big people.

Freeman says:

11:39am | 30/10/11

The unions that fought to improve working conditions in the early 1900s are nothing like these thugs that hold a company to ransom depsite the fact their members earn well above the industry standard. they do their members no favours as they will be out of a job.

Lee Enfield says:

11:39am | 30/10/11

And with unions our industries are steadily packing up an moving overseas because union demands make it impossible to remain competitive based in Australia.
Manufacturing all but non existent, Holden and Ford would have long packed up and left Australia if not for the massive tax payer funded assistance they receive.
The unions of 50 years ago are a different beast to the modern union movement. The modern union movement only care about their own hip pocket, fleecing their members, holding the public to ransom, and feathering their corrupt nests until they make the transition to politics where the rorting and fleecing continues. The modern Unions don’t care about the workers, they only care about the free ride the are given off the back of the workers.

Chris says:

12:17pm | 30/10/11

Hi Criag, no they didnt.

as for ...

“... i would rather see a company close, than see workers rights, safety and family life taken away from them.”

Spoken like a true moron. Sorry to all morons.

Paul says:

12:31pm | 30/10/11

Your right Craig, Trade Unions did ensure fair entitlements for workers but if you, as you admit, are unaware what the Unions are demanding then how can you comment on the matter?

And mate, if you trust the likes of Craig Thompson MP, who used Union Members funds to engage the services of hookers more than a Company trying to remain profitable amidst cheaper international competition then you my friend will be like most other Union members in the near future and be out of a job. Globalisation will make sure of it.

And to those suggesting the current Government should nationalise the airline, do you really think the cheap fares we enjoy today will still be available. No, it’ll cost around $1000 to fly from Sydney to Perth as it did in the 70s. Nobody will be going anywere unless you’re wealthy, a politician or a Union Official.

Mayday says:

12:35pm | 30/10/11

Can we set this to music…...please give me a break calling people scabs!

Sounds like “the trickle down effect” which is often derided by the Left in regard to capitalism and the poor being better off but then when Trade Unions are involved of course there are benefits which have trickled down to us all…....scabs too!

The Unions today are basically useless, the general population is educated and skilled enough to deal with their bosses directly

The days of Us and Them are long gone and all this lot are doing is spoiling it for the rest of the Qantas workforce.

jf says:

12:40pm | 30/10/11

i” would rather see a company close, than see workers rights, safety and family life taken away from them”

Absolutely right Craig.

So you, like me, must be fed up with unions spending their time, and workers dollars fighting for more pay for engineers, pilots and backage handlers who are paid more than their counterparts overseas (including in other developed countries) and who earn two to six times more than the average national wage.

Mexican Beemer says:

01:40pm | 30/10/11

Craig - While I do accept the important role Unions have played in the development of the modern workplace but I disagree with your comment

“i would rather see a company close, than see workers rights, safety and family life taken away from them.”

First the worst thing that can happen to any person is to be reduced to unemployment and if the employer is a shit one than the staff have the right to seek alternative employment.

Market forces do work against bad employers

I believe the company has offered the workers a pay rise and one other thing I find the term scab in this case to be offensive, unacceptable and rude.

A scab is someone that is willing to cross a picket line to replace the staff sitting on the picket line and I have not seen that occur in this dispute

jb says:

03:09pm | 30/10/11

Thompson, is that you?

TJ says:

03:52pm | 30/10/11

Well good luck to you Craig, because you just might get your wish ! Another large Aussie employer will head overseas thanks to these union thugs whilst the Aussies your unions represent have to go join the dole queue! Nice outcome for everyone - idiot!

Al says:

05:44pm | 30/10/11

@ Freeman, What rubbish,

Tell that to a school leaver getting monstered by his boss because he pays above the award wage so he can pick and choose which conditions he awards.

Tell that to an apprentice who has had his HBA deducted from his pay for six weeks without it being paid into his HBA account.

Tell that to an apprentice who is told by his boss that he is not entitled to a 38 hour week just because he goes to trades school the day the company knocks off early.

Tell that to workers of a factory who have had two weeks of their three week holiday pay with held for now reason and because the firm pays in cash they hope no one will notice.

Tell that to the school kids that works as casuals at a supermarket and are docked half an hours overtime just because the manager wanted to get out of work early.

These things didn’t happen in the 1900’s they happened in the 80’s 90’s and 00’s. What makes you think the employment market is any different now?

Ben says:

06:06pm | 30/10/11

Hate to break this to you: Some people do get their pay through hard work, intelligence and willingness to help a company succeed rather than holding their employer to ransom.

jf says:

05:32pm | 01/11/11

Al says:06:44pm | 30/10/11

“@ Freeman, What rubbish,”

You’re right AJ. What a pity that the unions aren’t in there fighting the hard battles, the dirty battles, the battles that attract little attention for the the vulnerable workers instead of fighting those battles that get the most media exposure for highly paid, highly qualified and highly employable workers.

Then they might enjoy the respect that they used to.

BobM says:

12:24pm | 30/10/11

@Gail - Tony Montana says: 12:20pm | 30/10/11
Alan Joyce, used his 10 million in shares to vote in favor of a 2 million bonus for himself.

It certainly helps when you have your own 10 million votes.

jf says:

01:47pm | 30/10/11

BobM says:01:24pm | 30/10/11

“Alan Joyce, used his 10 million in shares to vote in favor of a 2 million bonus for himself.”

(i) I doubt that he has 10m shares (ii) Even if he did, that amounts to less than 0.005% of shares on issue so I doubt his vote had that much influence.

In any case, even if he did own enough shares to have an influence on the vote, he’d only be taking money out of his own pocket.

All that said and done, if I were a Qantas shareholder I would have voted against the payrise. $5m is to much.

It seems that all Qantas employees are grossly overpaid from the CEO to the apprentice baggage handler.

TimB says:

02:38pm | 30/10/11

So what Bob?

Check my response to Tony . You have no more idea at the number of Qantas shares in existence than he does. We’re talking BILLIONS of votes. 10 million is nothing. Alan Joyce’s voting rights are a tiny fraction of the 98% of votes he got.

I suggest knowing what you’re talking about before you say silly things.

jf says:

04:05pm | 30/10/11

TimB says:03:38pm | 30/10/11

“You have no more idea at the number of Qantas shares in existence than he does”

There are 2,265,123,620 QAN shares on issue.

Luke says:

09:33pm | 30/10/11

Grossly overpaid, if only you knew. A standard electrician gets paid more than most LAME. He has far less schooling and far less responsibility. If only you knew what it takes to become an Engineer then maybe you can judge. But I bet you dont have a clue at all

Chris says:

08:40am | 31/10/11

@Bob I think you will find he (Joyce) would be excluded from voting any shares he has, so this is just ... BS, isnt it Bob!

jf says:

09:32am | 31/10/11

Luke says:10:33pm | 30/10/11

“Grossly overpaid, if only you knew. A standard electrician gets paid more than most LAME.”

Employed electricians earning on average $150k plus per annum? I don’t think so Luke.

Luke says:

10:02am | 31/10/11

Where did you get that figure of !50k from? Been listning to the mdia oo much? From wha the medi said average engineer is on 170k a year. Seein as I work as an engineer for Qanas I can tell you this is rubbish. Some LAMEs will be on this sort of money but have 3-4 type courses under their belt. A single type LAME would be on about 120k a year. This is aafter a lot of schooling and SOE. Now a union sight electrican will nomally top that without problem. And did they just get 20% pay rise over 4 years? As I said when you knoew the process you will know why enginers are on the money they’re on.

jf says:

11:35am | 31/10/11

“Luke says:11:02am | 31/10/11”

I can’t comment on whether $120k for you is reasonable or not. Nor can I comment on why you are paid $50k plus less than your more highly paid colleagues. However, I do know that there is a great disparity in incomes in my industry and I know why those on less money aren’t as well paid.

Furthermore, you may have a Bachelor of Engineering and three or four tertiary qualifications but you may also be fresh out of Uni and still gaining experience. Most uni graduates are paid relatively low wages until they gain some real experience.

$120k for someone with relatively little experience, low hours and a secure job is very, very good money.

gobsmack says:

02:21pm | 30/10/11

Yes and its the pilots and engineers who keep the planes from crashing not some overpaid prick trotting out the usual cost cutting measures.

TimB says:

02:37pm | 30/10/11

Hey Tony do you have any idea how many shares are in existence for Telstra? I bet you don’t have a clue.

Here’s a hint for you. Type 2,265. Then add 6 zeroes to the end.

Now if you’re really good at maths (I’m assuming you aren’t but feel free to prove me wrong), try and calculate what 10 million shares represents as a percentage of the total amount of shares. Then you’ll see why the votes Joyce cast with his piddling 10 million shares were rather irrelevant.

DAC says:

07:20pm | 30/10/11

Hey Tony Montana - Where did you get your information from. Alan Joyce is recorded as holding 721,255 shares.

Tony Montana says:

11:10am | 31/10/11

Hey TimbB, Yeah sure Joyce has relatively few shares, .28%  compared with Big banks/ super funds, etc but the facts are, he used his share options to award himself a fat 2 million bonus and for what? 3 million annual salary not enough hey! And also he was booed and hissed by the mum & dad investors who couldn’t show their disgust by show of hands. The ‘irrelevant’ amount was still used to enable a disgusting payout for himself….Timb you little Weasel ‘Globalist’ Prick!!!

tony montana says:

12:29pm | 30/10/11

Say that to someone on Board a, - Garuda, China, Egypt Airlines flight as your about to crash! Your a moron TK! Australians fly on overseas airlines like Singapore, Emirates because their safety record is up there with Qantas and look at Qantas safety record over the last few years…again your a moron!

marley says:

01:32pm | 30/10/11

Actually, Qantas’ safety record over the last couple of years hasn’t been all that great.

Mexican Beemer says:

01:49pm | 30/10/11

TK With due respect we have some of the best trained maintenance and pilots in the world.

In recent years we have seen a deterioration in safety performance partly due to the outsourcing to third world countries.

Before you scream racism, I think the evidence speaks for itself. and this is part of the problem in this country for the Corporate sector seems to only see Asia has a source of cheap labor rather than an opportunity to sell products to all those potential customers.

Timo says:

06:02pm | 30/10/11

I agree.

Consumers are smarter than what the unions think. If I can find an airline with good safety record, good service and cheap fares, I’ll fly with them. I don’t think they care the nationality of the crew.

Qantas doesn’t have good service, have outdated planes and simply cannot compete with Singapore Airlines, Cathay or Emirates. I don’t see planes operated by these airlines fall down from the sky.

Emily says:

01:12pm | 31/10/11

It’s not the fact that they are foreign that people are worried about, it’s the fact that they are not trained to Australian standards and the reason they are being hired is because they are cheaper.

I am not saying that every foreign pilot/engineer/mechanic is not as qualified, I’m saying it is a very real possibility that this may become the case if we start to outsource all employees.

On the other hand, sponsoring skilled persons to come and work in Australia on Australian airlines, in my opinion, is a good move.

The trade unions are acting on behalf of the employees in this strike, as they have promised to each Australian employee.  The choice for employees to strike was not made by the unions, but instead by the employees.  Union representatives, if anyone cares to go and have a little look, are not paid significantly more than you or I, but without them, we would be working 14 hour days without breaks, no holiday leave, no maternity or paternity leave, no overtime, without safe working conditions, and without the right to even ask for a pay rise.

Lee Enfield says:

11:57am | 30/10/11

Great idea true blue, giving all the ones born in the motherland a one way ticket home.
With that policy, the union movement in Australia would lose the majority of their leaders and officials and be dealt a long overdue cleansing. Gillard, gone, Abbott,  gone, oh, what a wonderful country we would be. All the parasites destroying this country gone in one policy.

jackfrey says:

02:49pm | 30/10/11

Hey True Blue, must be a real true blue aussie to spell Qantas with a U!!! What part of Australia are u from

Al says:

05:48pm | 30/10/11

Have a look at his Bio,

He came from Ansett and we all know how well that went.

Ren says:

12:03pm | 30/10/11

I have to agree with you. AJ has obviously put a lot of time and effort into being able to become a CEO of a large cooperation. If I did the same I would want a decent pay packet too thanks very much.

The thing is people go on about him freezing his own pay blah blah but the reality is he is still just an employee at the end of the day who is being paid to run a company.

Sure it sucks that these companies are making massive profits while employee’s don’t get the share in the spoils fairly. But that’s capitalism for you. Don’t hate the player, hate the game.

Ren says:

12:03pm | 30/10/11

I have to agree with you. AJ has obviously put a lot of time and effort into being able to become a CEO of a large cooperation. If I did the same I would want a decent pay packet too thanks very much.

The thing is people go on about him freezing his own pay blah blah but the reality is he is still just an employee at the end of the day who is being paid to run a company.

Sure it sucks that these companies are making massive profits while employee’s don’t get the share in the spoils fairly. But that’s capitalism for you. Don’t hate the player, hate the game.

Lisa says:

12:32pm | 30/10/11

Great comment!

Shane From Melbourne says:

12:54pm | 30/10/11

Bullshit. It is a economic question. Is a CEO of a company who has poor management skills, poor negotiation skills, who has trashed the company share value and trashed the company brand so that many travelers will not use Qantas again, losing market share in an already tight competitive market, worth a extra 2 million dollar pay rise? Alan Joyce has EARNED fuck all. Purely on a business criteria, of course.

Col Sanders says:

01:50pm | 30/10/11

Firstly haven’t you got the bull by the A*** ?Isn’t It primarily about a job security guarantee?.  Ansett and February 2000, just seem so long ago, remember how everyone kept working and tried to save the airline and their jobs, .Then,How many millions of dollars of a golden handshake did that wonderful CEO (who used to glare out at you from the terminal billboard) walk off with again? ...I remember it was larger than my telephone number.

Tony Montana says:

01:57pm | 30/10/11

A Richard, got any idea what the average baggage handler takes home after tax? Why can’t pilots ask for a 2.5% pay rise over 3yrs? They have 300 lives on most flights to look after. Pilots get flight tested every six months or so, if you fail goodbye career…..excuse me, but these people have real skills and don’t ask for 71% pay bonuses like CEO Alan Joyce., who are rewarded for sacking, downsizing and off-shoring jobs. AS for- The Shareholders, you think ordinary mums & dads voted in favour of this pig getting a 2 mill bonus? They are Super/ Hedge Funds and large corporations. plus Joyce used his 10 million in share options to vote in Favor of himself getting a 2 million pay bonus…NOT EARNED Richard, grounding planes leaving CUSTOMERS stranded Brave you say, another Clueless Moron on the Punch!

BobM says:

02:03pm | 30/10/11

Alan Joyce is best mates with the former CEO of Qantas, Geoff Dickson, who, if you recall, tried unsuccessfully to sell off Qantas a few years ago (and make a packet for himself in the process). John Borghetti should have been given the job - he at least knows how to run an airline profitably ie he is now the CEO of Virgin. Qantas was the loser, they got someone who only knows how to run a cut price airline (into the ground).

Martin says:

02:30pm | 30/10/11

@Shane. Your chip on shoulder comment shows you have no idea. To become a CEO of one of these larger companies requires a considerable level of education, experience and ability.

As for trashing things, this is a union instigated dispute. They are doing the trashing. If they were at work like they were supposed to be,then guess what? No trashing of the Qantas name, happy customers company making a profit and employing their staff and possibly even employing more as the business expands. But no, we can’t have that can we? Lets bring the airline to it’s knees, so the the CEO grounds the fleet. Oh, he’s trashing the brand? Fair dinkum you union and Labor people haven’t got a clue have you?

Anyway, Joyce did the right thing because now the unions will have to negotiate in good faith for realistic terms and conditions, which is what should have been happening all along

gobsmack says:

02:35pm | 30/10/11

@Richard
Your name wouldn’t be Alan Joyce by any chance.
This for example:  “he dared to take on the Unions and had the guts ..”  “fighting so bravely”.
He’s a business man.  He walks away with millions no matter what the outcome.  He has nothing to lose.
Honestly, by the way you talk you’d think he was taking on the Taliban with a pen knife.
If it turns out to be a disaster for Qantas, I’m sure he has a nice estate somewhere in Ireland.

Shane From Melbourne says:

04:45pm | 30/10/11

@Martin- No Chip. Personally, I don’t give a rats arse whether Qantas goes belly up or not. All it will mean is that the government or private operator that steps into the breach will get Qantas assets on the cheap. But I do know whether a CEO is good is not. Alan Joyce made the decision to ground Qantas, no one else. Blame the unions all you want, but Alan Joyce alone is responsible for trashing Qantas and its ultimate demise.

TC says:

10:32pm | 30/10/11

Brilliant Richard.  How dare anyone question what Joyce got paid, its none of their buisness, nothing to do with anyone.  You are correct there, lets not judge what a person earns….but then you question the unionists and their demands.  Little bit hypocritical don’t you think and isn’t that one of the issues.

gobsmack says:

02:27pm | 30/10/11

“You are willing to work hard to achieve your success.”
Rubbish.
He is willing to send work offshore and compromise safety to achieve his “success” (ie increasing profits).  Usual management approach.  Nothing particularly inspiring about that.
Surely we have enough mediocre managers here without having to bring them in from overseas.

Runt says:

03:46pm | 30/10/11

I pay the extra for because QANTAS pilots are the best in the world.

PTom says:

06:05pm | 30/10/11

Richard your a joke.

You got any proof that air hostesses or baggage handler get paid $150K or is just more BS.

Luke says:

09:17pm | 30/10/11

Maybe everyone has forgotten that Qantas made a tidy $550 million dollars profit in a year that was plagued by natural disasters and mid air mishaps.Qantas has also put down deposits for a bunch of new aircraft.  I’m going to go out on a lim and say that this year without all the union action and grounding by Qantas, they would of made a larger profit this finiancial year. It is not as dire as AJ is trying to make out it is.

Pilby says:

01:28pm | 30/10/11

Yes, a very good point, but not one I think any CEO should consider. The shareholders might notice that when he refuses to work that absolutely nothing changes. Then the shareholders might start asking questions about why he is there at all!!

Rose says:

02:06pm | 30/10/11

Why does it give the govt no choice but to terminate the industrial action? Maybe the govt will tell Joyce that he needs to start acting in good faith, maybe he will be forced to do the job he is overpaid to do and actually negotiate a mutually acceptable resolution. If Joyce is incapable of negotiating without halting the business’ core operations he is very clearly not very good at his job. The man and the Qantas board obviously have a hidden agenda (not so hidden really-moving to Asia) and he never intended to negotiate in the first place!

Lee says:

01:58pm | 30/10/11

I learnt something reading your comments. Thanks for that. A friend of mine is a Qantas pilot and he finds the actions and intentions of Joyce and Co disgraceful.

Mike says:

06:06pm | 30/10/11

Thank you (sincerely) for illuminating the less financially savvy re: shareholders and proxy votes, because not many people DO understand that the mum and dad ‘retail’ shareholders hold next to no power in swaying a vote UNLESS they gang together and assign their proxies through a group like the Australian Shareholders Association.

Most of these pay increases (for a decrease in share price ?) is the fault of those instutitions lazy enough to assign their votes to the chairman of the meeting (because they also don’t even turn up to the AGM in which they hold shares) and the fact that most people on the board hold shares.  Hence, it is a given.

Perhaps if more people made more noise through what their super funds hold and asked their fund managers to actively vote in the interests of their own share holders - not necessarily those of the board, then you might even see a higher return on your super !

WAKE UP says:

02:09pm | 30/10/11

Daz you hit the nail right on the head.  Qantas tried to go completely offshore a few years back.  Some Directors could see the financial gain but the Australian Govt stopped it with the Sale Act.  CEO Joyce is trying to get around the Sale Act and demolish Qantas.  Qantas has been sued by Japan and USA.  It is plainly obvious that the plan is to have Qantas based in Asia where wages are piss poor.  Max profit and tough luck for Australian Workers.  Look at all the problems Qantas have had with Air Safety that is because Australian Jobs have gone.

Occupy your Head says:

02:49pm | 30/10/11

by corporations no less….

Kate says:

01:40pm | 30/10/11

You do realise a huge proportion of Australians are of Irish ancestry? Should all of us be ‘sent packing’ as well? And what does his nationality have to do with his leadership?

jb says:

02:00pm | 30/10/11

Send Gillard back to Wales and get an Australian to run the country… you idiot

Leslie says:

05:32pm | 30/10/11

Dear Kate, I am of Irish decent who helped build this great nation. BUT i am 6 generation Australian not some fly in Irishman who took a job from an Australian and trashed Ansett airlines and is now trashing Qantas airlines. His nationality has everything to do with it,  Qantas to most Australians especially living overseas is HOME!! Joyce has no HEART for what Qantas stands for to us Aussies and I am sick to death of selling our land, manufacturing and resources to cheap overseas LABOR!!!

Lee says:

01:54pm | 30/10/11

Love it! Spot on.

Rich says:

01:57pm | 30/10/11

“The cost to Qantas being shut down Joyce could have given the workers what they wanted”

Actually no.  pretty much to your entire comment.

jb says:

01:58pm | 30/10/11

Ah and what the hell is a Welsh woman doing as the CEO of Australia?
Read your crap before you post Leslie…

OFFSHORE or Bust is CEO Joyce's plan says:

02:03pm | 30/10/11

What has been failed to be mentioned is that when CEO Joyce took over the Share Price was 5 times what it is now.  But gives himself an increase in pay of millions.  Plus The pilots and engineers have been negotiating with the company for over a year, with the company continually walking away from the talks, or so it has been reported. The AGM was Friday, and Saturday they shut down the fleet. Why was it not announced at the AGM and then vote on AJ’s wage increase? Did he mislead the AGM? Why wasn’t it announced Friday at the AJM? Why is it necessary?

Ben says:

03:03pm | 30/10/11

You’re a complete boofhead mate.

Leslie says:

05:15pm | 30/10/11

JB 1st,  No Australian voted for Gillard JB she shoved Rudd aside to become PM 2nd,  I am a Liberal supporter ever since Paul Keating years,
Read your own crap you fool!!

Fiona says:

10:58pm | 30/10/11

Leslie, pretty sure that you’re wrong about JG. She was the one who ran for PM last year, not KR. So people did in fact vote for her.

Leslie says:

05:41pm | 30/10/11

Exactly!!! These people have no clue about Australia or Australians, jobs for Australians first whether a CEO or baggage handler!

Ben says:

10:12pm | 30/10/11

That is absolute nonsense. Alan Joyce has a deeper knowledge of the Australian and, perhaps more importantly, international airline industries than anybody on this forum ever will. If he were a second rate CEO I severely doubt that Qantas’ shareholders would have shown such strong support for his management at the AGM. It’s a globalised world and if you want to perform you can’t limit your talent pool to Australia only. Corporate jingoism doesn’t solve anything and the yobbos baying for Joyce’s blood (ie. Leslie) are just a pack of dopey dickheads who have no understanding of the airline industry or running a business generally.

Mattb says:

05:36pm | 30/10/11

Um, pretty sure Qantas, and any other airline for that matter, already pays a ‘price/tax’ for carbon emissions when they fly into Europe. This hasn’t had any catastrophic impact on the worlds airlines, so what’s your point?....

Leslie says:

04:19pm | 30/10/11

I totally agree Tony, most Australians think of Qantas as an Australian icon and want it kept that way. I recently lived in Southern California for 7 years and at 9.30am every morning I saw the flying kangaroo circle around to land at LAX, it was my piece of home!

Piggers don't care. says:

04:37pm | 30/10/11

No Tony, it’s all about profit at any cost.
Screw the Australian families that rely on a decent wage and make sure senior management get more time at the company trough.

Joyce would move the Australian hub to Singapore if they’d let him.

Max says:

09:16pm | 30/10/11

True. If Joyce had been a half decent manager he would have cut his pay rise to the same percentage as he insists is all he can afford to pay staff.

JIm says:

05:41pm | 30/10/11

I agree.
The unions think they have a divine right for pay increases with no offer on productivity gains. Hard to imagine how Qantas can compete with other airlines.

SomePeople says:

08:55pm | 30/10/11

Good to see another misinformed person. Maybe if you did a bit of research you would know that this has very little to do with pay. But more to do with job security. The pilot only want a 2.5% payrise, significantly below inflation. They also risked jobs to try and bring them closer to international airlines by putting forward that they would increase efficiency by 20%. Qantas did not want to have a bar of it and proves to me they are not interested in making any form of an agreement, even if they were asking for 1%.

johhny says:

11:26pm | 30/10/11

somepeople says you seem to be more ignornat than those you are accusing of being misinformed. QANTAS had already agreed to a 3% pay rise. QANTAS staff are already paid more than their counterparts at other airlines. how could one reasonably expect a 737 pilot to be paid the same as an a380 pilot? not to mention the rolling strikes which seriously undermind the confidence the travelling public have in using the airline effectively participating in a lose form of corporate espinage of dare i say it terrorism. they (the unions) have been and are running one of australia once great companys into the ground. if QANTAS isnt able to compete globally it ceases to exist as do the jobs and probably jobs for anxiallary providers as well… think about that…  also for unions to slam the boards actions is straight up hypocritical and patronising to the australian public when they themselves have done the same. this isnt america people and union bosses need to realise the tactics of instilling fear in people to get them to align views is old world most of us are smart enough to see through the rhetoric. WELL DONE QANTAS! UNIONS SHAME ON YOU!

Leslie says:

05:11pm | 30/10/11

Well said Jason that is exactly what this boils down to for me!!!!

marley says:

05:53pm | 30/10/11

Well, at least one of those incidents was a result of a badly designed European engine. I know of no actual incidents caused by shoddy offshore maintenance.  Do you?

Mike says:

06:01pm | 30/10/11

What the hell is up with the bigotry. Again for the third time, what the hell does being Irish have anything to with it??

So shall I just say, never lend money to a Greek Person, Italians can’t run businesses and never trust those Icelanders.

You are an asshole and so is every other person that continues to make statements like “send the paddy home”. What the hell have you done that’s so great anyway? You managed a large company or invented anything or been the leader of anything?

You’re a dick.

Peter says:

06:02pm | 30/10/11

Union thuggery and illogisc aside,  CEOs are there to make things work.  They have all kinds of fancy names for the process but making it work is what it is all about.  Ask yourselves,  has Alan Joyce done that?  Has he been aleader?  Has he communicated his problems to his workforce?  Has he sought their help in ensuring the long term viability of their jobs?  Evidence that he has done any of those things is hard to find.  Now as a tough guy he has kicked the company into touch on the full.  In whose interests is that?

Kate says:

08:30pm | 30/10/11

@Mike, I agree! Yes, if you think the guy is a bad businessman then say so, but I don’t know what the anti-Irish comments have to do with it. All these comments like ‘he doesn’t understand Australians’ are BS. It’s not like Australians have some mystical quality that is hard for people to understand.
I would bet a lot of money that the majority of people banging on about Qantas and ‘the Aussie spirit’ would not turn down a cheaper flight on Singapore Airlines or Etihad if it were offered.
I’m an Australian of Irish descent and these comments make me furious.

Ben says:

10:23pm | 30/10/11

With a surname like ‘O’Shea’ I don’t think you should be slagging off the Irish mate.

Kurisu Sonsaku says:

06:15pm | 30/10/11

“As a QANTAS shareholder” -  “the gall to award himself with an obscene pay hike”

If you are a QANTAS share holder you would have known that CEO remuneration was voted on at the AGM. Joyce did NOT award himself a payrise.

I dare say you are a liar.

John of Brisbane says:

09:07pm | 30/10/11

@Kurisu “If you are a QANTAS share holder you would have known that CEO remuneration was voted on at the AGM. Joyce did NOT award himself a payrise.”  before you go calling people names you should understand how payrises for CEO’s are awarded. JOYCE voted to accept the offer even though he knew that it would not be in the best interests of the company. Therefore SELF-INTEREST.

Shane From Melbourne says:

07:31pm | 30/10/11

Actually no. It is time for the PM to watch Alan Joyce drive Qantas into the ground and then float Qantas as a government operated airline when the company is in receivership, picking up assets for a song. Qantas is already dead. It is the aftermath that bears watching.

Super D says:

07:51pm | 30/10/11

@Shane - So how do you suppose this government owned airline with all the inefficiencies that go with public ownership will be competitive with other airlines?  Perhaps the government could enact laws to restrict aviation competition?  At the end of the day it would mean higher prices for the travelling public.

Shane From Melbourne says:

10:23pm | 30/10/11

@Super D- Most of the government fully owned or partially owned airlines seem to be doing quite well thank you. On the other hand private airlines in the US seem to go into Chapter 11 with distressing regularity. At the end of the day it is federal government control over routes that is important. The federal government already restricts aviation competition otherwise Avalon airport (in Victoria) would have international status and Sydney would have its second airport by now. Oh that’s right John Howard privatized the airports and granted a monopoly to corporate interests…..

Against the Man says:

05:41am | 31/10/11

Shane, I think you don’t understand how things work in the real world and the concept of ownership and economics. But it is complex, even I need some time to digest it all.

The PM had a choice in acting for Australians. She didn’t. Australians are not surprised. Welcome to another fine day in the world of ALP failures.

Christian Real says:

06:29am | 05/11/11

Against the Man (boy)
It appears that no matter what private enterprise does, like the CEO deliberately grounding his airline, you and other Liberal bloggers will always blame the Prime Minister or the Unions.
The fact is,the blame lies directly with the CEO of Qantas, but you and other Liberal bloggers cannot accept that fact,or maybe you just all cannot understand that fact.
Against the Man(boy)
Maybe it is you, and not Shane that “doesn’t understand how things work in the real world.”

gobsmack says:

11:25pm | 30/10/11

Are you seriously comparing pilots to train drivers??
Do you know what happens when a train’s engine fails?  It slows down and eventually comes to a halt.
Also, there are those things called rails.  Which means a train driver doesn’t need a steering wheel.  In fact all the driver needs is a brake and an accelerator.

James Darby says:

10:14am | 31/10/11

Correction: “Reg” should have read “Sir Peter”

Got to be kidding says:

10:47am | 31/10/11

James Darby, you are a muppet. LOL. Comparing train drivers with pilots???? I guess you must play a flight simulator on your computer and received the high score?

John the Zombie says:

08:22am | 31/10/11

You sir/Ma’am prove that Darwinism theory of evolution is flawed if ppl like you exist. Your argument that because unions fought for conditions to be improved in the past they can hold any business at ransom and it is deemed to acceptable behaviour. Ok If that theory is acceptable then let me put this one to you. The Australian defence force fought for your freedom so does that mean they have a right to dictate how the govt and ppl live. I guess your answer would be no, so then why is acceptable for unions to do the same.

Also you are joking about the 3% pay rise per year over three years. If you are saying that anyone who is offered this increase is been cheated by their employer then I guess you better pick up the phone and call your union backed labor member of parliament and ask them why the govt offered this to defence. Even after it was rejected by defence the govt did not bother offering another deal but sent it to the tribunal who ruled that 9% over 3 years is what defence will receive. So is this acceptable if you say that the 9% deal is not a good one.

So I hope the unions will now turn to the govt and say to them that the deal that they offered defence is not acceptable.

Chris says:

08:32am | 31/10/11

lol ... thanks for the great laugh!

Sick of Union BS says:

10:47am | 31/10/11

@ SotBS

Much has been said, especially by your union mates, of AJ’s 71% payrise this year.

What HASN’T been said is that, when AJ took the helm in 2009, he received a fixed annual remuneration of $309k/yr LESS than his predecessor.  Would you be prepared to accept a lower wage than the guy before you got?  Like hell you would!

What HASN’T been said is that, last year, his packaged dropped by 20%!  Would you then be prepared to take a 20% drop the year after?  Pig’s arse you would!

But, you’ll happily crucify a guy who has.  You’ll happily feed on the propoganda your parasitic union bosses feed you.

Tell me, mate, when you go on strike and go without pay, does your union boss go without, too? 

Or, does he live in his ivory tower, quaffing champers and caviar while you starve???

Loxy says:

11:28am | 31/10/11

Sick of the BS, there is no doubt that Qantas management have made mistakes in this process. Joyce’s pay rise could have been timed better and although I completely agree with the decision to lock-out staff – from a customer’s service point of view they should have given notice.

However, perhaps you are a little unsure how the world works when it comes to pay for workers. Sure employers should treat their staff well which includes reasonable wages, however CEOs get paid well for a reason- they are highly educated and intelligent and work very hard. A baggage handler on the other hand is a job that requires no education and very little skill so why should they be paid more than a 40k base? Childcare workers, who must have qualifications, get less than that and have no option to top up their salary with overtime as baggage handlers do.

It’s time for the unions to live in the real world and make reasonable demands.

Sick of the BS says:

08:26pm | 31/10/11

@John the Zombie,you sir prove that you like to twist whats said to suit your own agenda. Going by what you are saying ill take a punt and guess you think its ok for a company who is unwilling to negotiate with its workforce to shut its business down costing the country,potentially,hundreds of millions of dollars? At least the unions gave due warning for work stoppages,what warning did Joyce give the thousands of passengers worldwide and its workers? As for your comments re the army i fully support them getting a wage increase beyond the 3% mark and would 100% support any union action taken to get our armed forces better renumeration.

SOTUBS:  Ive taken a job on a lower salary than my predecessor before…whoppty friggin doo! As for AJs 20% paycut well thats been well and truly taken care of hasnt it? During the GFC the unionists at my workplace didnt recieve/ask for any payrise to help the company thru the hard times.do you think the company doubled the payrise at the next EBA seeing as the company was not only back on its feet but going great? Parasitic union propaganda? lmao! QANTAS were the ones spewing forth lies to further their own agenda matey.

@Loxy: So do you think ALL bosses and workplaces would treat and pay workers fairly if there were no unions to worry about?  Im well aware of how the world works thank you and am not denying that CEOs do work hard for their money. But going by your views on getting paid for what someone is worth (through education,work hours etc) i ask,do you think any CEO in the world should be getting paid more than any neurosurgeon or the like? Surely doctors/surgeons who literally hold peoples lives in their hands on a daily basis have a higher net worth than any CEO? But thats not the way the world works is it? All us lower class uneducated monkeys should just eat cake and let the smart people tell us what we should be happy with!

Kika says:

02:05pm | 31/10/11

You are probably right!

julesbomb says:

03:23pm | 31/10/11

he is an australian citizen racist james

RyaN says:

04:31pm | 31/10/11

@julesbomb: Yet another reason for Australia to disallow dual / multiple citizenship.

James Hunter says:

12:24pm | 31/10/11

Carnival Joyce!