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It’s time we had an actual discussion about population

Susannah Eliott

by Susannah Eliott

02 Apr 02:21pm

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Filed under: Demographics, Ecology, Economics, Environment, Population

121 comments

Predictions for Australia’s population seem to be going up like bids at an auction.

Maybe if we go in sideways we'll fit?

Three years ago the Australian Bureau of Statistics predicted 28 million by 2050 and more recently Kevin Rudd has mentioned a figure of 35 million. Media reports in the last few days have put the figure at more like 40 million by 2050. Any advance on 40 million?

So where are these figures coming from? Many experts agree that the current focus on growing Australia’s population to 35 million or more by 2050 is not founded on sound science but on short term trends with a large dash of wishful thinking.

According to University of Queensland demographer, Martin Bell, “the surge in growth reported in the latest ABS stats is largely a product of unprecedented levels of overseas migration, coupled with a large number of overseas migrants being counted as permanent residents. No one who has looked closely at this data expects this level of growth to be sustained even for the next five years. ... speculation about a figure of 40 million shows the manifest dangers of basing long term projections on trends over the latest year or two”.

Assuming we could grow Australia’s population to 35-40 million by 2050 would it be a good thing? This is where the great divide in expert opinion rears its head.

The population debate in Australia is following two main trajectories that are incompatible and lead to completely different outcomes for Australia. In their extreme forms they represent rampant growth with a view to economic gain and zero growth with a view to maintaining our environment. The sad reality is that, while you can select the evidence to support either view, neither is likely to lead to the desired outcomes their proponents envisage.

The pro-growthers tend to look only at the benefits in terms of dealing with skills shortages, the ageing population and increasing economic prosperity. And they’re not wrong. As world renowned population specialist at Adelaide University Graeme Hugo, points out “if we look to 2031, over 60% of the growth of the population is going to be in the old age groups”. The baby boomers, who make up 27.5 % of the population but 42% of the workforce, will have well and truly retired.

On the other hand, a population growth of 35 million by 2050 will lead to a doubling of our greenhouse gas emissions unless we make enormous changes to our lifestyle says CSIRO population modeller, Graham Turner. We’re already faced with large environmental challenges regardless of any growth in population. Right now 90% of Australians live in areas where rainfall is declining and technological fixes like desalination require three times more energy.

The zero-growthers tend to look only at environmental degradation, jobs for locals and social inequality without considering the social and technological stagnation that could result from walling Australia off from the rest of the world with a zero migration policy.

Such a policy could reduce the chance of developing innovative technologies and energy systems that we need to deal with current and emerging environment problems.

So one set of pressures we face encourage growth, and another set encourage constraint.  Where does the solution lie?

On such a critical issue as population, it is essential that policy is underpinned by good research. “We shouldn’t be adopting unsubstantiated, aspirational targets; we should be looking at the science and looking at ... how we can achieve this holy grail of growth with sustainability,” says Martin Bell.

It is also essential that the researchers talk to each other and work together to help inform sensible policy decisions.

As long as economists, demographers, ecologists and urban planners inhabit parallel universes, we will not be able to reconcile the opposing trajectories or reach a shared and sensible vision for how we can grow our population into the future.

Most commented

431Australia, you have nothing to fear but fear itself
390There's no one Thomson won't burn to save his skin
336Animal experiments won't cure me from cancer
313Thomson didn't answer the question everyone is asking
266Who murdered the Arts degree?
246A big day for Thomson, who thus far is guilty of nothing...
231South Australia. It's the middle bottom bit.
231Craig Thomson speaks. Meanwhile, in Australia...

121 comments

Show oldest | newest first

    • Mr Pastry says:

      01:51pm | 02/04/10

      In 2040 the call will be for 75 million and so on.  I don’t think you need to be an economist, demographer, ecologist or urban planner to understand exponential population growth means extinction. Earth did very nicely without us before and is probably planning how to again.

      Reply

    • TB says:

      03:48pm | 02/04/10

      How about we have a discussion about the real issue - sustainability. As I have stated on at least one prior occasion, there’s no point in discussing population growth without taking a good honest look at our wasteful way of life. Our present levels of consumption are already excessive - an increase in population will exacerbate matters, population control (I can’t find a gentler term for it, I’m sorry) will simply delay the inevitable collapse of our (already outdated) socioeconomic system.

      Reply

    • Adam Diver says:

      12:14pm | 03/04/10

      “Such a policy could reduce the chance of developing innovative technologies and energy systems that we need to deal with current and emerging environment problems.” Are you serious migration is the only way we can develop new technologies and energy systems? I didnt realise our borders were walled off without any information passing through and that our population can not be educated.

      If that is the best reason not to have 0% population growth than it sounds like a good idea to me.

    • Paul says:

      04:21pm | 02/04/10

      stop the world I want to get off.

      Reply

    • The Dreaded Soothsayer says:

      04:47pm | 02/04/10

      ” I don’t think you need to be an economist, demographer, ecologist or urban planner to understand exponential population growth means extinction.”
      Actually none of these people will actually tell you that, only fearmongers or politicians could come up with that gag. April Fools Day was yesterday mate. If exponential growth does cause extinction, unfortunately extinction level events have done the job before it could, so the data is non existent (no pun intended) in this case I’m afraid.

      No one knows what will happen when the population swells over time - factors such as technology, environment, climate change (either way) and government competence make it impossible to predict. That doesn’t stop a whole tribe of doomsayers telling us the end is nigh in one way or another. I find it funny that people are addicted to misery and suffering in the good times, and are almost overwhelmingly positive when things are miserable - it must be instinctive.

      Before more people come on to this blog and demand controlled birthing like it was so easy to force people to give up their right to breed (people who breed are such bogans after all), think about the solution you propose. It is not ethical in any society to encroach human rights. You have to be absolutely sure of the scenario that is going to happen, and no one is. This argument is so incredibly selfish it astounds me - it is essentially a large group of people who would gladly sacrifice other people’s future lives just to maintain their standard of living, even when they are unsure whether or not their standard of living is at risk. It is true in politics that your opponents may not necessarily be stupid, but they are most certainly selfish.

      Now being pro growth is also a silly scenario - why increase the chance of a disastrous scenario from happening? This is also selfishly motivated in that businesses believe that more people equals more demand which equals more dollars - but there is no increase to the standard of living of people. If growth is to be enhanced, the increase in people must be adequately managed and sustainable otherwise it should be left alone.

      What should be done is simple - nothing. Leave it be, laissez faire etc. Let people make their own decisions with regards to their lives. Let governments try to predict these decisions and manage services accordingly. Disasters may happen, misery may happen - but these will happen regardless of whether we are here or not. Anyone who knows anything about the human race and evolution knows that we did not get to this position due to our superior teeth, running speed, or thick winter coat. We got here because we are manipulators, the rules don’t apply to us. And they won’t apply to us again and again and again. What’s guaranteed is that if or when this proposed misery does arrive, everyone will be a lot happier.

      Reply

    • jamie says:

      07:06pm | 02/04/10

      I thin Tim Flannery was talking about 12 million in his book the Future Eaters.

      Reply

    • A Bob says:

      08:47pm | 02/04/10

      Two words: Soylent Green.

      Reply

    • stephen says:

      12:03am | 05/04/10

      In the movie, actually, it was said as one word, and was intended that way. Wrong again.

    • Michelle says:

      09:25pm | 02/04/10

      Population debate is for nought unless you factor in Rudd’s proposed Asian Union: “Using the very crude equivalent measure of Poles moving to the UK after its accession to the EU with these figures, an EU-type organisation that included Australia and these three Asian countries (leaving aside all the other proposed members) would see a migration to Australia of about 21.256 million people.”
      http://onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=7488

      20 million Asians moving here? Yep. That’s why Rudd skirts the population debate. Surely Rudd isn’t that mad? Surely he doesn’t want a fully open-borders union with Asia? Well, he hasn’t ruled it out, and all the talk so far is BIG. Rudd forewarned of such big thinking when he announced his Asia Pacific Community: “In the 1950s, sceptics saw European integration as unrealistic. But most people would now agree that the goal of the visionaries in Europe … has been achieved. It is that spirit we need to capture in our hemisphere. Our special challenge is that we face a region with greater diversity … But that should not stop us from thinking big…”
      http://www.asiasociety.org.au/speeches/speeches_current/s55_PM_Rudd_AD2008.html

      And Rudd continued the big talk: “I actually believe in a big Australia I make no apology for that” and “I actually think it’s good news that our population is growing. I think it is good for us, it’s good for our national security long term” and “good for our national security, good for our longterm prosperity, good in enhancing our role in the region and the world”.

      Those last words are the key to understanding Rudd-Labor : “enhancing our role in the region and the world”. Its wrong to view Rudd-Labor through the prism of nationalism. They are card-carrying globalists who want to dissolve Australia into Asia. They’ve got a bad case of the Ban Ki-Moons: “This is, after all, an era of integration. Regional integration is taking place all over the world”. That’s why Rudd wants a big population but never says why, why he doesn’t care about the comparatively piddly number of boat people, why immigration and foreign students are at record high levels under Rudd, why he relaxed foreign owership laws, why he wants to diversify the military, why he awards the Indonesian PM an award of Australia, etc. It’s all to move us towards assimilation with Asia.

      Wake up and smell the coffee folks, Rudd-Labor think that, just like the EU, Asia can become one borderless superstate. And John Howard has the hide to say that Rudd has done nothing. Rudd is proving to be the most radical prime minister Australia has ever seen. Sure, I can’t see China and Japan opening their borders to foreigners, but I can see Rudd martyring our borders as a sign of good will, a starting point for regionalisation, a gesture. The conclusion is obvious: Rudd-Labor are mad ideologues who will wreck Australia in the name of some misguided notion of “imagine no countries”. Sounds good in a pop song, but in reality it is a nightmare. They are barking mad.

      Rudd said we should “catch the spirit” of the EU. Well, the rising spirit in the EU is a wave of resurgent protectionist parties (anti-EU, anti-immigration, anti-Islamic, etc) e.g. Geert Wilders’ Dutch Freedom Party, Italy’s Lega Nord, The Swiss People’s Party, The Danish People’s Party, the Austrian Freedom Party, the UK Independence Party, the BNP, etc. Rudd-Labor are card-carrying globalists, deeply indoctrinated, and cannot help themselves - and the Liberals are not much better. If you want population control then get behind such protectionist parties here in Oz e.g. Dick Smith’s Stable Population Party or The Australian Protectionist Party.

      Rudd also heralded his Asian Union with: “The purpose is to encourage the development of a genuine and comprehensive sense of community whose habitual operating principle is co-operation”. Comprehensive, habitual: these unlimited terms show Rudd’s true colours i.e. he’s got a bad case of Ban Ki-Moon’s one-world groupthink.

      Reply

    • Jan says:

      06:59am | 03/04/10

      Michelle’s astoundingly accurate representation of Rudd-Labor intentions should be on the front page of every Australian newspaper.  It should be headlined on every news flash, every day, so that all of us can be reminded about what lies ahead, and why,  if Aussies give Rudd-Labor more time to implement their stated population growth policies.

      Just wait. We are going to see more talk about climate change austerity measures (Mums and Dads - turn your heating down and let the kids go cold) while Rudd talks up a big energy-consuming population. 

      International discussions should focus on the (conveniently ignored) fact that a 5% population reduction would entirely halt climate change (if you give it the benefit of any doubt).

    • John says:

      10:44am | 03/04/10

      Thank you Michelle, insight at last. Rudd and Co are taking us in a direction most Australians don’t need or won’t to go. But looking to the Liberals will not help. Like the old saying, it’s not the constitution the country that’s important it’s the constitution of the people. We need to send a big message to these dictators that we are not happy. Put it to referendum then we will see how far it goes.

    • John says:

      10:51am | 03/04/10

      Thank you Michelle, insight at last. Rudd and Co are taking us in a direction most Australians don’t need or won’t to go. But looking to the Liberals will not help. Like the old saying, it’s not the constitution the country that’s important it’s the constitution of the people. We need to send a big message to these dictators that we are not happy. Put it to referendum then we will see how far it goes.

    • Tomi says:

      09:41pm | 02/04/10

      Yes, well. The World Population Clock seems to suggest a woman gives birth every 2 seconds. We should find this woman and stop her.

      Reply

    • stephen says:

      02:26am | 03/04/10

      I wish i was the bloke on t’other end.

    • klopper says:

      10:33pm | 02/04/10

      The majority of the population increase is due to migration. These people already exist and are already using resources and polluting.

      The environmental argument is nonsense.They’ll either be polluting where ever they are now, or here creating jobs and opportunities and adding to our cultural capital.

      Reply

    • marley says:

      01:42pm | 04/04/10

      Actually, there was a study done some years ago in Canada to identify the economic benefits vs costs of immigration.  Interestingly, the study found that immigration was not the great economic benefit that it had always been assumed to be.  The study found that, while large-scale immigration enlarges the workforce, increases the number of consumers, and expands the tax base, it also adds greatly to social costs for medical and hospital care, schooling, infrastructure and housing.  The study came to the conclusion that, overall, immigration costs and benefits neutralized one another.

      It would be interesting to know if a similar rigorous study has been done in Australia.

    • Don Clark says:

      05:05pm | 04/04/10

      Numerous studies over some decades, not too hard to find in the literature, both academic and departmental,  through the obvious sites like DIAC, ANU/CIMS, the APH or NLA,  via their online publications, catalogues etc.

      Though with this sort of econometric work, the results do tend to reflect somewhat the assumptions (mind-set, if you like) of the analysts,  by and large, the costs and benefits do turn out to be pretty neutral in many studies- ie where the assumptions aren’t too over-the-top in either direction…

      In stark contrast,  “Zeta” in his Arms and the Man lecture the other day assured us that the Soviets were going to invade us (didn’t say whhe, let alone how *they’d* get here ). Then again, “Steve” wants us to believe 80 million Bangladeshis will be on the way (and didn’t say how or when either). And in competition with both, “Michelle” would have you believe that we’re going to surrender our sovereignty to “Asia” (to which power, or when, she didn’t trouble to say).

      Summary: if you do want an open and useful debate about current population and future policy in our country, on realistic terms including costs and benefits of migration, there’s plenty of solid work on tap to start from, though you’ll not find any pointers in the disappointing original article. Plus you’ll have to tune out a few of the more plainly hysterical claims, but hey, that’s democracy. At least they’ve shown out the quite ludicrous barrows they’ll be pushing. It’ll help weed out the total dross from real work on the real issues.

      Happy browsing.  You’ll find - if you read far enough -that I’m not far off the mark.

    • persephone says:

      07:07am | 05/04/10

      Whenever people start talking about hordes invading Australia, it reminds me that the fort at Queenscliff, Victoria was built in the 1860s to keep the Russiand out.

      Mind you, it’s done an excellent job.

    • Gerard says:

      11:11pm | 02/04/10

      Anyone genuinely concerned about Australia’s population is at liberty to remove him/herself from it by some means of their choice.  Not only will that demonstrate the sincerity and selflessness of their concern, it will actually help solve the very problem they profess to be concerned about.  Who’s going to go first and set the example for the other doomsayers?

      In the meantime, why don’t we take meaningful steps to improve the infrastructure and availability of water so as to support a larger population?  And yes, I mean a 100-year-plan or whatever it takes to bring water down from the north.  We sit around doing nothing to improve our country and then gripe that we can’t support any more people.

      In the meantime, too, it’s perfectly meaningful to discuss the MANNER in which our population is growing.  It is NOT healthy for a country’s population to grow so disproportionately through immigration.  Such growth introduces all kinds of distortions, not least of which is the fact that immigrants have an immediate need for incremental housing, whereas a newborn Australian doesn’t need a new dwelling for 20-30 years.  Immigration numbers are currently out of all reasonable proportion to our existing population.  No one disputes the value of immigration but at least be sensitive to its possible disadvantages as well.

      Reply

    • S.L says:

      05:58am | 03/04/10

      It might be wrong but I have read the entire human population of the world right now would fit into the North Island of New Zealand with an acre of land around each person so if that’s tha case I think we have a while to go before panic statons. (Yes it was written by a kiwi!)

      Reply

    • Rereke Whakaaro says:

      07:23pm | 03/04/10

      I think you might be wrong.

      The world population, as at midnight, July 31 2009 was 6,790,062,216 persons.

      The entire area of New Zealand is 66,152,582 acres.  By my calculations, that is approximately 103 persons per acre, or 47 square yards per person - an area approximately 6 yards by 6 yards.

      But that is for the whole of New Zealand.  that area would roughly halve if you just considered the North Island.  About the area of a small double bedroom.

    • chris says:

      02:40am | 04/04/10

      just did some sums and the total area of both islands is 66 million acres roughly and divided by 7 billion people gives each roughly 6x6 metres. Sorry don’t know how big north island is but it looks about a third of the size so that’d be 2x2 metres each. Just enough space for some sheep ‘appreciating’.

    • Ben Finney says:

      05:19pm | 04/04/10

      S.L, you make the mistake of thinking that every acre of land is equally arable.

      If you’d be happy moving to your allotted acre of Nullabor Plains and staying within it with no expectation of ever getting more, I’m sure no-one here would deny you that lifestyle.

      Meanwhile let’s think about sensibly managing the population so we stop putting so much strain on the few arable acres we have left.

    • Steve says:

      06:32am | 03/04/10

      There are 80 million Bangladesh who live 2 meters or less above sea level.  Than means they will be looking for a piece of dry land very soon no matter which party governs Australia. The Ord River looks like a good real estate option.

      Reply

    • Don Clark says:

      08:59am | 03/04/10

      On population projections, they’re neither predictions nor forecasts. They simply illustrate what might happen under different sets of assumptions on fertility, mortality and migration. I expect that’s partly why they’re produced every 2 or 3 years.

      Typically, the most recent (Sep 2008) ABS issue of
      3222.0 - Population Projections, Australia, 2006 to 2101 gave 3 main series,  whose results for 2056 were
      Series A 42.5 million
      Series B 35.5 million
      Series C 30.9 million.
      http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/mf/3222.0

      Plainly, current Series B is close to the 2050 result that the PM has been quoting. That series largely reflects current trends in fertility, life expectancy at birth, net overseas migration and net interstate migration.  Series A and Series C are based on high and low assumptions for these variables.

      In recent years, the successive Intergenerational Reports of the Treasury have also shed much light on the future impact of population change. Treasury do their own projections of population and eg outlays, over coming decades. In doing so they call on ABS data. Treasury likewise adopt 3 sets of fertility etc assumptions: a base case, plus lower and higher growth rates.

      As the PM was quoting a 2050 figure, it is unsurprising to find the IGR 2010 projection of population was 35.9 million for 2050, using “base case assumptions” not unlike the ABS Series B to 2056.
      http://treasury.gov.au/contentitem.asp?NavId=035&ContentID=1710

      Those referring to 40 million may be preferring a high migration, high fertility scenario, eg ABS Series A, as their source.

      The 28 Million referred to by the author, Ms Eliott, may have been either the Series B middle of the road result for 2051 from the previous ABS 2006 Projections, or the similar result for 2047 from IGR 2007.

      So, I agree with her that a well-informed debate on population growth is badly needed, for social policy, for long-range budget planning, and in the climate change context. However, this article could have offered a much more useful summary had the author looked more carefully at the range of readily available data, instead of presenting the ever-evolving projections as though they are unexplained and warring guesses.

      [Don Clark is a private citizen, in the employ of no political party or member. His views are his own, researched and presented by his own hand from reliable, cited sources.]

      Reply

    • Steve says:

      11:01am | 03/04/10

      Thanks Don, I nominate you to explain to Bangladesh that they must stop complaining about rising sea level and just learn to swim.

    • jed says:

      09:20am | 03/04/10

      “So where are these figures coming from?” The property lobby! Buy now cause we don’t have enough homes and the Sydney median will be 10 million in 5 years!

      Reply

    • Robert Smissen of Rural SA says:

      05:46pm | 03/04/10

      The only problem that we have is that the model of a tough self reliant adventuring Australian is a MYTH ! ! ! Australians are office bound city dwellers clinging to the coastline. Get out of town you lazy buggers & get a job in the bush. Just 15% of us live in the bush producing over 40% of the country’s wealth

      Reply

    • Helena B says:

      08:12pm | 03/04/10

      No thanks I will let you keep all the snakes and I will just live in the city, after all us city dwellers can’t let you bushies have all the fun!!

    • andrew says:

      08:06am | 04/04/10

      my heart bleads for you robert smissen.  why do people like you feel the need to deem people that have an office job less deserving then those that work the land?  perhaps you are one of those uneducated people who feel the only hard days work is one that you use your body.  the brain takes longer to recover then that of the body from a hard days work.  ohh, where is your source from 40% of the countrys wealth comes from the bush?

    • acotrel says:

      06:57am | 04/04/10

      Rudd’s action to PLAN for population growth must appear strange to the Liberal Party.  They’ve never been known to manage risk, plan for anything, or even have a vision for Australia’s future!

      Reply

    • marley says:

      06:49pm | 04/04/10

      Mmmm.  I think the Libs had some concept of risk management when they introduced Approved Destination Status for visitors from the PRC.  Very successful program, with few overstays.  I think they had a vision for the future when they expanded skilled migration, particularly from Asia,  to record levels.  As for planning, well, sorry, but I haven’t seen any Party, Lib or ALP, actually willing to say what their demographic objectives actually are.

    • B Proletariat says:

      10:28pm | 04/04/10

      I think we have plenty of room, I mean look at cage hens. They are a little stressed but they still live and can produce eggs.

      Reply

    • Timmo says:

      08:27am | 05/04/10

      Where will the animals and rainforests go?. What about them? Two thirds gone now. Got to think of that as well, not just ourselves. Don’t worry, your grandkids will be able to look at photos in another book of what used to be. Let’s give them some room to live too, shall we.!?.

      Reply

    • kj says:

      10:03am | 05/04/10

      Far too many parents are choosing to have children when they are quite unaware of (or ignore) the consequences of that choice. Result - TV used to babysit, children learning violence through video games, etc..
      Responsible parenthood is the solution to many current social problems.
      Population policy development should include analysis of support and information available to couples on the consequences and responsibilities involved in a decision to have children.

      Reply

    • Fr John Fleming says:

      10:12am | 05/04/10

      What on earth is an “actual” discussion?  Actual means “existing in fact, real, present, current”.  We really haven’t been having the discussion we are having?  Or everyone else involved in the discussion except “me” is talking nonsense?  Pullease!  We may not all agree, but the discussion has been going on in Australia for decades.

      Reply

    • daviduxresll says:

      11:02am | 05/04/10

      So , how are you going tocelebrate this particular Easter Vacation?

      Reply

    • Robinoz says:

      11:06am | 05/04/10

      Canada has a population of around 30 million and is a bit larger than Australia, but with many unpopulated areas. They have a much better water supply than we have, but ours could be improved.

      We do need population growth economically but the idea is to keep it gradual and not fast. That way, we can gradually improve infrastructure and keep an eye on water supply, pollution and so on.

      What bothers me most is that if population movement occurs as it is for too long, there will be four or five countries that are overpopulated (ours being one) and hundreds of countries like some of the African states with unskilled and unqualified people to keep their countries going. There is an ethical argument about taking qualified immigrants from countries who need them. We never consider that.

      If we taxed the churches (supernatural charities), instead of letting them have a free ride, a substantial amount of income would accrue nationally rather than looking to immigration to offset our large baby boomer population costs.

      Reply

    • Russell says:

      01:23pm | 05/04/10

      This topic sure excites the blogosphere, two stories in one Punch! I guess we’ll get lots more.

      Malthusian thinking comes in cycles, its last great wave was in the 70s. All those doomsayers predictions were wrong. We didn’t starve, Asia didn’t get poorer, our city actually got cleaner, etc etc

      I think what this current crop are saying is, instead of letting our human ingenuity solve our problems. lets have less humans.

      It a misanthropic, cynical a lazy position. I wonder why it appeals to so many people?

      Reply

    • Edward james says:

      02:29pm | 05/04/10

      Put it to referendum, we don’t want, blah blah blah. The disproportionate population of our world with humans has been a problem for over a hundred years. While pursuing ways to sustain that imbalance we continue to do damage to our life support system. When will we take our elected reps by the scruff of their respective necks and shake some sense into them.  During world war two we fought to keep people out of Australia. People who like now wanted something which they saw as better than what they have “at home” Rudd is setting us up to give away what our forefathers fought and spilt blood to take from the first people and keep for those who are now borne here.  I will leave it for others who are more eloquent to explain these things. We did as English come and take away from the first peoples Gondwanaland.  I am not excusing that but perhaps Rudd understands how the first people felt when considering the swelling masses of people to our north.  I understand this planet our life support system is in a state of imbalance.  Moving the deck chairs around on the Titanic is a phrase which springs to mind.  If you want something easy to understand about over population consider how the growing populations of countries in the northern hemisphere are moving their foraging south to hunt and fish in the southern hemisphere in greater numbers.  Sustainability is all well and good but commercial interest pushing that mantra must be identified by politicians supposedly representing us as not fitting in with consumerism and population increases to create markets for growth. It is nonsensical spin even children can see through.      Edward James

      Reply

    • The_Mainlander says:

      04:06pm | 05/04/10

      No one understand the notion of Exponential Growth (clearly this number can not happen by 2050)

      Or the fact that Kevin was spruking for the housing industry with a “I don’t apologise for a big housing cost in Australia”... ooops I mean a floor under he housing market with “I don’t apologise for a big Australia”

      Clearly the media were conned by this PR stunt… bit like throwing out the 48B AUD number for a broadband network!

      Reply

    • Shockadelic says:

      08:24pm | 14/04/10

      So it’s Big Australia or Walled-Off Australia? If you expect an “actual discussion” it would help if it weren’t limited to extremes.

      How about letting the people decide?
      Send a notice to a random selection of 5000 people from the electoral roll.
      Each notice will ask whether they would want reciprocal migration with a particular country (one notice for Jamaica, another for Sweden, etc.)
      Each person then only needs to make a choice about one country.
      If they know nothing about it, they can research before answering.
      If a majority say no, then no migration.
      If yes, the corresponding country must also do the same with a notice in its country asking if they want Australian migrants.
      There must be a Yes vote in both countries (no one-way migration).
      Unfortuntely for the anti-white brigade this would probably result in a reversion to something like the policy we had 40 years ago.
      If so, so be it. The people, not their ‘betters’,  will have decided.
      (As all western countries have had non-western immigration for the last 40 years, about 20% of all migrants would be non-white anyway, so don’t panic white-haters).
      Once the countries are selected, the numbers of immigrants could be proportional to their homeland populations, with the total number proportional to ours (e.g. 0.5%).

      Or we could start building that wall.

      Reply

    • Gizmos says:

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      Mais même si vous une fois que vous   commande   le particulier spécifique de spin que la majorité des JP Morgan dans la   est sans aucun doute   fondamentalement,  petites pommes de terre et l’ donc le   à propos faire, c’est pas facile de Dimon.  au sein de l’ après-vente conférence téléphonique, Dimon sonnait comme rappellent ces de son ancien moi, défiant et, en outre brutalement honnête: «Tout simplement parce que nous étions stupides , ne signifie pas quelqu’un d’autre semblait être de ” http://www.michaelkorssiteofficiel.com

      Reply
 
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Anthony Sharwood

antsharwood 26 May 12 09:27PM

Dementor doing a good job for sweden #sbseurovision

Anthony Sharwood

antsharwood 26 May 12 09:11PM

Ukraine song pinches chord progression from The Verve's Bittersweet Symphony. Fo real #sbseurovision

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antsharwood 26 May 12 09:00PM

RT @GerardDaffy: @antsharwood all the talk over there is the grannies will win.they entered to get a church built,feelgood story

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antsharwood 26 May 12 08:57PM

These peole insult my grandmothjer, who was born in minsk, belarus #sbseurovision

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