It’s not the end of the world if you don’t get top marks

acotrel says:

04:07pm | 20/12/12

Project and risk management skills are good to have.  Tradies on construction sites cannot move without the skilled person leading. The difficulty lies in finding teachers who actually know what they are about.. Currently project management is usually only taught as part of IT courses and some advanced engineering, it is logic not rocket science.

Joe says:

04:27pm | 20/12/12

Poul, time to stop drinking.

Levi says:

10:28am | 20/12/12

True, but you can always go to uni and do engineering, geology or surveying and make more than any tradie. Earn more money stacking shelves at woolies than an apprentice does in a week. Then spend all your spare time chasing around 18 year old uni chicks. Good times.

Hmmm says:

10:57am | 20/12/12

Levi,

Thats simply not true mate.
A diesal mechanic, fitter and turner or air con mechanic just to name a few will crap all over a Geologist or Surveyor. And as an engineer you are up against 3427682746237849624892 Sub continent Engineers with Master degrees. Good luck there.
Also good luck chasing around Uni chicks with no money, the tradies win there too, fair enough they dont get much as an apprentice but its more than a Uni student .

Samantha says:

11:06am | 20/12/12

@Levi,
I disagree to a certain degree.  I am one of those engineers that does not earn more than a tradie does as the industry I work in pays tradies and other operators an absolute fortune for seemingly less responsibility.  It depends on if you want to travel to work, is all.  But I’m not complaining about what I earn, I think it’s worth it and in the end, it is the operators who are responsible for ensuring the works are done properly, after all, they are the ones actually carrying them out.

Andrew says:

11:28am | 20/12/12

Your probably right Shane, but i was useless at trades but my skills in delegating other people to complete my wood and metal work assignments in high school shown that perhaps i have a future in business.

Now i am at business school, needless to say, it is easy to see the MBA students, they are the ones that steal your ideas and make it out to be their own.

JTO says:

11:34am | 20/12/12

Hmmm - I manage several outsourced software teams in Australia and India. I earned my way to this position and have the knowledge and experience to do the job and assess the output of my teams, but what happens in 20 years when we’ve had no juniors coming through the ranks. How do you effectively manage someone when you have no real idea what they do? Or the problems they might face? Or the excuses they will use? That’s what worries me.

Tubesteak says:

11:58am | 20/12/12

Have to agree with this. I know tradies that earn more than lawyers. The only uni degrees these days that are lucrative are Com/Law for investment banking or medicine. The rest of the degrees are a waste of time.

I was joking with a friend yesterday about how the trades were frowned upon when I was at school. If only…...

Ziggy says:

12:33pm | 20/12/12

Sorry guys but you forget the accountants. An average accountant with a talent in finance especially financing methods and structuring will earn megabucks.And getting an accounting degree is childs play compared to engineering or law.I’m a CA but a friend who got his accounting CPA via TAFE path is earning more than any partner in my firm because he has the talent and passion for financing projects and companies.And good luck to him.
I’m all for the tradies as well.

expat says:

01:02pm | 20/12/12

The gravy train that tradespeople are currently riding won’t last forever..

Supply and demand is likely to be your short term issue, what happens when all of these people who are now choosing to do apprenticeships over uni come onto the market fully qualified? Add this to the fact that mining is on the slow down, which has been the one factor in propping up the wages.

Mid term you eventually will have to contend with globalisation like your white collar counterparts have already had to. Those 457 visa’s are already flowing for the mining industry, that is just the start.

Tell me again why you would want to do a trade?

Joel M-J says:

01:12pm | 20/12/12

Success = decent salary, right guys? You’re comparing degrees and trades based on what it will earn you. How very enlightened of you all.

I for one would not be choosing one career path over the other simply because it is more lucrative. There is a massive difference between job satisfaction and earning a lot of money.

I learnt that the hard way. By the end of my first year out of uni, I was earning 80k a year… and hated the job. I left it to take a job in a completely different industry, that only paid 50k a year, and never looked back.

If your job satisfaction is determined by the size of your salary, fair enough. To each their own. Just don’t make the mistake of thinking that the same principal applies to everyone, and certainly don’t be so arrogant as to assign judgement on how successful people are based on income.

My Space says:

01:20pm | 20/12/12

Tradies?? Good luck with that .... I know too many with stuffed shoulders, backs, knees, hip joints, missing fingers, skin cancers and aged prematurely from being in the sun too long.

Science and engineering, teamed with a management decree and business skills is fun, fun, fun!!! It has taken me around the world, to places people dream about.

Yeah ..... if you stuffed around at school you can go to TAFE or go OS for a year and hope for the best. But face it ..... you have probably wasted 2-years of your life .... which amounts to $140K (maybe). When you graduate you are already behind. Got a nephew who did this, but at least he is owning up to his mistakes and he is openly telling his cousins not to stuff around like he did.

Also the fact that you are an underachiever probably reflects on your work ethic ..... so good luck flipping those burgers.

Levi says:

01:39pm | 20/12/12

@Hmmm,

Well everyone has different experiences I suppose. Where I work and most companies I’ve worked for, Geo’s and engineers always get paid more than their tradie counterparts, and we’re not bound by EBA’s like they are. More flexible rosters, better work conditions and better benefits. But every industry is different.

Subcontinent engineers with Masters degrees generally end up driving cabs in Australia. From what I hear it’s a major issue in IT etc. But in mining if you’re shit you don’t get hired. Foreigners are very much the exception to the norm. The shortage of degree qualified engineers, geo’s/ surveyors isnt so dire in Australia that we need to rely on imports, especially now that the boom is slowing down.

If my kids want to go to uni someday, I’d give them this advice. Choose from Medicine, Vet, Dentistry, Mining/Chem/Mech Engineering, Geology, Surveying, Commerce/Business or Accounting. Don’t waste your time with anything else.

As for trades, the good times are soon to be over just like mining. The boom of the early 2000’s for building has finished, but a contraction in wages has been slow to catch up.

My Space says:

03:04pm | 20/12/12

@ Levi

What??? You wouldn’t recommend an Arts Degree???

acotrel says:

04:16pm | 20/12/12

The important thing about pursuing part time studies is to find something which really interests you, then learning is easy.  I was still at night school at age 57.  I always did courses in subjects which I liked and enhanced my career as a scientist in engineering companies. If your motive is purely to make money become a bookie or a stockbroker - same thing !

bananabender says:

04:25pm | 20/12/12

Levi,
nothing could be further from the truth. I known a senior engineer in the mining industry - Ist class honours, master of engineering degree and an MBA. He earns considerably less than his brother who drives a haulpak.

acotrel says:

05:07pm | 20/12/12

@bananabender
Some farmers earn a lot of money driving tractors, but I think you’d have to be able to live with the idea that life is passing you by, or be conditioned to do the job. It would be good to do it for a month after working for 40 years in a highly stressed job. Sort of like Zen Buddhism ?

Tubesteak says:

05:24pm | 20/12/12

The only reason to work is for money. The more money the better. Better still if it’s an easy cruisy sort of job. Money is the only thing that will buy you a nice house and a sweet ride. Lets not forget the ol saying “no money no honey” too

George says:

10:40am | 20/12/12

Do they? I think this is a conversation we as a country need to have. It’s just not on in my book that a year 10 dropout doing quite basic things is making big bucks and financially insulting others who did the harder stuff at school and uni.

I think we need to have a good look at importing shed loads of Indian tradies, these people built Dubai for crying out loud.

On topic, I 100% agree, the HSC is massively overrated and being a lawyer or a doctor looks pretty sucky to me.

Pattem says:

10:51am | 20/12/12

@Hmmmm, you stated: ” was one of those annoying buggers that never had to work or study for A’s. Until Year 12 hit and I found I didnt have any study habits”.

Sounds like me!

Hmmm says:

11:04am | 20/12/12

Haha Pattem its funny isnt it. Not sure if the jump from Year 11 to 12 hit me or I just hit my intellectual limit at that stage. Might have been girls also.

George, its just a market and demand thing I guess.
My parent tell me in the 60’s and 70’s a lot of the $$$ trades didnt bring in that much back then. People stopped training, skillsets grew more scarce and this is what you end up with. A diesal mechanic at a mine earning more than people who run your state.
Right or Wrong it has to make you think

Pattem says:

11:44am | 20/12/12

@Hmmmm, I think for me I reached a point where raw talent was no longer enough to achieve high marks.  Hard work was now required to understand the more complex concepts and maintain a similar standard of grade.  I just went pfft and couldn’t be bothered doing that hard work.

It only meant my uni journey was slightly delayed, rather than being completely derailed.

JTO says:

12:50pm | 20/12/12

Pattem - See I avoided joining the me too thread, but that’s spot on. Raw talent will only take you so far.

“delayed not derailed”
I believe I may hold the record for the longest time between starting and graduating at a certain engineering department. It took me so long my youngest attended some lectures with me, and was there to see me graduate. That was a proud moment. I still get a buzz when she puts on the little graduation bear pin that I gave her that day.

Brian B says:

01:23pm | 20/12/12

Bit rough on tradies George old son. Most apprentices choose to take up a trade after Year 10 - they are not “drop outs”.

Also they do a deal more than “quite basic things”.

Try asking your average accountant to build a house or carry out plumbing or refrigeration work.

Mark says:

01:31pm | 20/12/12

I didn’t have to work hard or study for A’s, even in YR12.

I went to University and did a high level course at the top victorian university. 3 years later and I realised they weren’t teaching me anything I didn’t already know, they weren’t providing me with the resources or support to develop my own ideas and all you do is sit in front of a lecturer listening to them blab on about theories that are readily available to anyone who is interested.

Seriously, university is nothing but an unessential degree printing factory. You can develop all the skills learned at uni in a shorter period of time working on the job. 

Oh, and money isn’t everything. Get passed that and you may not be so distraught about your job prospects. I know I would give anything to go back to high school, before the slavery for a wage kicks in.

acotrel says:

04:26pm | 20/12/12

My brother is a competent boilermaker in the construction industry. It’s not that flash.  The companies employ imports with minimal training, and call them trades assistants.  They can do just enough to undermine the tradies. I know tradies that earn more than I ever did, but they are not the majority, and their workplace culture usually stinks. As far as moving from a trade to a profession, forget it, it’s a dead end.

acotrel says:

04:49pm | 20/12/12

@Brian B
‘Try asking your average accountant to build a house or carry out plumbing or refrigeration work’

I’m an industrial chemist however I build a meaner road racing motorcycle than any tradie or mechanical engineer ever can.
It is all about application, building a house or plumbing is not rocket science, you start and you finish after you’ve read all the relevant standards. With tradies it is often monkey see, monkey do.  But if you read the relevant standards, they usually have it somewhere near right, because their apprenticeship classes are taught out of the standards. You often hear the phrase ‘when I done me time’ from them - they regard their apprenticeships as prison sentences . They are all good people, but don’t bullshit me about their knowledge of anything slightly advanced. The last courses I did were in welding technology, because I had responsibility for weld inspections.  The tradies were very limited in what they knew about aircraft welding or other high strength applications.  So the thing to do is always work with them and bring them along if you need to do that stuff..

Ben says:

05:44pm | 20/12/12

@acotrel

>>It is all about application, building a house or plumbing is not rocket science, you start and you finish after you’ve read all the relevant standards. With tradies it is often monkey see, monkey do. 

Yes, of course. Monkey sees mention of Tony Abbott, monkey (as trained by his keeper) automatically throws poo at Tony Abbott.

the cynic says:

06:11pm | 20/12/12

Acotrel says… “As far as moving from a trade to a profession, forget it, it’s a dead end” ........ Really !  At age 15 I left school with overall average marks and one fail in Maths II. I wanted to fly desperately but with my marks I was very lucky to even get an apprenticeship in one of Australias domestic airlines, became an engine/airframe mechanic then a Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer(LAME) .

After a few years positions came up to move over to the professional Flight Engineer ranks, was interviewed and accepted and I ended up flying all over Australia and then the world in another airline. Got where I wanted to be and never had to work at the coalface ever again.

I flew for 36 years and now happily retired after moving from a trade to a profession and have been renumerated handsomely because of the change. Not exactly a dead end move I would say. If you want something bad enough just go for it.

acotrel says:

04:52pm | 20/12/12

I live in Benalla - bit of a problem if you want to study advanced maths.

acotrel says:

04:59pm | 20/12/12

The best and worst engineers have come up from the shop floor.  The worst bring the bullying uncaring culture with them.

Joel M-J says:

01:17pm | 20/12/12

Good for you Jackson. Do what you have to do. Don’t let anyone else tell you otherwise.

acotrel says:

05:25pm | 20/12/12

Tester, I’ve never been ‘in a happy job, earning good money’.  However the job interest and opportunity to apply myself have always been excellent.  It is a question of values.

Colin says:

01:09pm | 20/12/12

@ sunny

Unless, of course, you have a ‘Real’ degree that is the fundamental basis for your working life without which you would be unemployable in a particular field…Which means that your subsequent jobs all also require it (and postgrad quals too), as I well know…

sunny says:

06:03pm | 20/12/12

My point was that I probably could still have been employable in my field (business) without my degree - a number of people doing exactly what I do don’t have a degree. I’ve never had to show my academic transcript to an employer, and only needed to show the actual degree certificate during my first interview 20 years ago as a graduate. Accepted though that law and medicine etc. are different - i.e. fields where the degree is the fundamental basis for your working life. Don’t get me wrong I have benefited from my time at uni, but wonder if there was another (possibly shorter) path to where I am now.

Jess says:

02:09pm | 20/12/12

Talk to the people who didn’t go to uni - In my department non degree qualified people tend to struggle once they hit the 5/6 level. (exluding IT)

AdamC says:

02:47pm | 20/12/12

Jess, are you talking about pay grades there?

Everyone in my agency, except the admin and data processing staff, have degrees, so I do not have any real insight into that. Personally, I tend to think sometimes degrees are being used merely as ‘entry tickets’ to roles. Lots of jobs in areas like government, banking, insurance and the like did not used to require degrees but now do.

JTO says:

03:03pm | 20/12/12

AdamC - That’s exactly what my degree was. I was a programmer before I got my degree, and one after. Nothing changed except I wanted to leave the small company I was working for and needed my ticket. I struggled for years refusing to do it because that was all it was, then gave in. The stupidity is that my degree doesn’t even directly relate to my job. Sure it was in engineering, but not software engineering.

AdamC says:

03:30pm | 20/12/12

JTO, sometimes I think employers want to see degrees just so they know you are smart enough to learn stuff and can read and write.

Jess says:

04:04pm | 20/12/12

levels of responsiblity really Australian Public Service Goes APS 2-6 now days EL 1-2 SES Band 1-3.
APS 2-6 are the lowly staff increasing responsibility and wages at each level, Execuative 1-2 are middle management and SES is senior executive service.
There is alot of research and analysis in my department so having a degree as you move up from processing jobs/data entry is benefitial.

AdamC says:

02:06pm | 20/12/12

Was there any particular reason you dropped out, James1?