It’s my flesh and I’ll bare it if I want to

marley says:

08:26am | 17/05/11

If women have to walk around worrying that they are being stalked by rapists on every street corner, maybe we should require them all to wear the burka after all.  Most sensible people realize that sexual assault by a complete stranger is, like pixie dust, rare.

pixie dust? says:

08:57am | 17/05/11

True Marley, rape by a complete stranger is rare. But rape and sexual assault in general, sadly not so rare. And yes I and many other women actually walk around worrying about rape and/or sexual assault could occur at any moment because that is exactly what happened to us. So pixy dust? If only Marley, if only.

http://au.answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080827003807AAQ8mns

Kassie says:

09:09am | 17/05/11

“Don’t look left or right when crossing the road!  We should be able to just walk right on out there, like we could before vehicles were invented?”

I really worry about the general level of community intelligence when I read fatuous comments such as this. Anyone with half a brain must realise that such an analogy is ridiculous on so many levels (although I suspect from the rhetorical flourishes in the comment above that BTS is under the impression that s/he is a debating genius).

And from reading the rest of the comments below, it appears that Tory’s blithe assumption that most people today place the blame for violent and criminal behaviour on the aggressor/ perpetrator was sadly misplaced.

marley says:

09:47am | 17/05/11

@pixie - I’m aware of the statistics for sexual assault.  My point is, the whole argument about women placing themselves at risk by wearing revealing clothing is based on the assumption that the rapist is a stranger who sees a bit of alluring flesh and attacks - but most sexual assaults don’t involve strangers at all. 

And for the ones that do involve strangers, how many involve scantily clad as opposed to fully clad women?  Got any statistics on that?  Certainly, there’s a hotel maid in New York who would challenge the assumption that one has to be scantily clad to attract unwanted attention.

Rick says:

10:01am | 17/05/11

You have the right to wear what you want…..................just as you have the right to prostitute yourself.

BTS says:

10:14am | 17/05/11

Kassie,

Good to see you worry about something.  Your concerns about the intelligence of the community should be held a level of far greater importance than say…sexual assault of women.

Anyone with half a brain would realise that the opening statement was rich to the point of overflowing with sarcasm, but then you have already demonstrated you don’t even have half a brain ...do you?

Sam says:

12:36pm | 17/05/11

Telling women to cover up to avoid rape is a disgusting outcome from a society that is far too lenient on serious crime.  The criminal should be punished and not the victim, or in most cases society as a whole. 

Sometimes it seems like that only crimes that are taken seriously are the ones the governments can make money from.

ShamWow says:

02:19pm | 17/05/11

Don’t be so quick to jump on your keyboard and attack BTS, he is not blaming the victims.

Tris says:

02:35pm | 17/05/11

I just think that these slutwalks are for women who want their cake and eat it too.“I should be able to Dress however i like and get attention from everyone cause they can see what i had for breakfast, but your not allowed to think i am a slut” Funny huh they are trying to impede free thought????

Survivor says:

03:48pm | 17/05/11

Tris - I plan to attend the SlutWalk in my city, and I have every intention of wearing something very similiar to what I wore when I was raped. The only flesh exposed is my head and hands - oh no, I must be a slut, and I was DEFINITELY asking for it!
The whole point of these walks isn’t “for women who want their cake and eat it too”, it’s in protest to the all too common notion that women are somehow at fault for being attacked and violated. Shame on you.

Rover of North Cooma says:

03:59pm | 17/05/11

BTS, the problem with the road safety analogy is that it falsely implies that all men are rapists.
It’s a pretty fair bet that if you step out in front of a car, any car, the driver will have little chance of avoiding hitting you.
But it’s highly unlikely that if a woman wears a short skirt and walks in front of a man, any man, that he will have little chance of avoiding sexually assaulting her.

BTS says:

05:02pm | 17/05/11

Rover,

I understand your point, but that’s not what I am saying.  When it comes to crossing the road, we all adopt a little common sense and protect our own safety.  Apparently that doesn’t apply when the genders are in conflict with one another.

Paul says:

05:49pm | 17/05/11

BTS your analogy does not hold.

Someone might accidenty run me over.
No-one accidently rapes someone.

Kassie says:

06:45pm | 17/05/11

BTS,  Your opening statement was obviously an attempt at sarcasm. However, that doesn’t mean it can’t be criticised for its absurdity. As I (and others) have pointed out, your analogy is fatuous (or to make it easier for you: meaningless, pointless…dumb).

You have no idea of what my concerns are and I’m certainly not going to bother debating with someone who thinks they are clever in analogising pedestrian negligence and resultant accidental injury with female “negligence” (“slutty” clothing) and resultant criminal sexual violence.

BTS says:

07:52pm | 17/05/11

Paul,

It does hold.  You don’t deliberately endanger yourself by running straight out onto the street without looking.  You take precautions.

BTS says:

07:55pm | 17/05/11

Kassie,

“although I suspect from the rhetorical flourishes in the comment above that BTS is under the impression that s/he is a debating genius”

then

“As I (and others) have pointed out, your analogy is fatuous (or to make it easier for you: meaningless, pointless…dumb).”

I know what fatuous means…it sounds like you are the one with the illusions of debating grandeur.  Shame you don’t have a penis, because then we could confirm you are a wanker.

BTS says:

07:57pm | 17/05/11

I never suggested accidental behaviour, you misinterpreted that.

Shamwow appears to have got it.

Rationalisation says:

11:41pm | 17/05/11

I don’t see anyone saying it’s the victim’s ‘fault’ for getting raped here. Funny how people twist words to rationalise their own agendas.
Sure you can wear what you like, and there should be no legal recourse for doing so. But it’s all a bit late once the trauma has been done - especially if it could’ve been avoided, however small the chance.

Matthew says:

12:44pm | 18/05/11

You jump out of a plane with 2 parachutes.  The chance of the first failing is extremely small, but why take the risk?

That’s what BTS is saying.  He’s not saying that the first one will fail intentionally.  He’s not saying that it happens to everyone.  He’s pointing out that it’s wise to do everything you can to avoid a situation whenever possible but sometimes it can’t be avoided (both your chutes fail).

It’s sad that women are raped, and everyone should do their best to stop it, including the victim (ie, don’t walk down dark alleys, or alone at night either).  The bastard that does it should be punished to the full extent of the law.

Wearing shorts skirts does not invite someone to rape you, but it may increase their willingness to break the law.

Carz says:

08:23am | 17/05/11

Oh Erick, how you love to twist the story to fit your facts. Yes men account for three-quarters of victims of violence, however Tory was talking about victims of sexual violence, where men make up about 20% of victims. You also neglect to mention that the majority of male victims of violence are victims of other men while the majority of female victims of violence of all types are also victims of men.

As for “helping” women by telling them how to dress and behave in public….where is your similar advice for men? As you keep reminding us, they are victims too.

progressivesunite says:

08:53am | 17/05/11

You might be on to something Erick - if men get “falsely accused” of rape, and they’re more likely to be the victims of violence (from other men…) aaand you think women should take measures to not get themselves raped, then I think the answer is clearl = men should not be allowed out without an escort : ) done. Everyone’s safe.

Erick says:

09:14am | 17/05/11

@Carz, we were talking about victims, not perpetrators. Your attempt to twist the topic in order to blame men is noted.

As for helping men avoid becoming victims - I’ve already covered that. Men are more likely to be victims of false accusations than of sexual assault, so it’s important to educate boys and men about the dangers they face.

Sarah M says:

09:32am | 17/05/11

Dear Men,

As you will by now be aware, with great thanks to Erick, you are at serious risk. No actually you are AT SERIOUS RISK of:
a) Being a victim of violent crime (you make up 75% (Erick (2011) of victims)
b) being falsely accused of Rape.

In an effort to ensure that you have appropriate information to manage these risks I provide the following advice in relation to:
a) Being a victim of violent crime…
1) Stop hanging out with other men
2) Stop hanging out with other men larger and faster than yourself
3) Stop hanging out with men smaller than yourself, (they will feel the need to prove their masculinity)
4) Stop being better at (watching) sport, video games, music and picking up women than any other man in your vicinity.
5) Don’t dress in better/more expensive/more trendy/not trendy enough/to sporty/to bogan/any team supporters wear/holden/ or ford branded clothing.
6) try not to leave the house after dusk
7) do not imbibe any alcohol or drugs or be around those that do

Following all this advise you will strongly mitigate the risk of incurring physical violence.

b) Being falsely accused of rape:
1) No means no
2) If she can’t stand up or walk due to intoxication she can not consent to intercourse (legally)
3) Try to get to know someone before you have intercourse with them and take the time to judge their character.

I feel given all the stereotypical information I have taken at least 20 minutes to consider, this foundation course in How to Be Safe for Men 101 provides the perfect introduction to safe social interactions for potential male crime victims.

Peter says:

09:41am | 17/05/11

Good stuff Erick, I agree whole heartedly. I’m sick to death of hearing woman proclaim “I should be able to wear what I want to wear”.
Surely common sense dictates that they should accept at least some responsibility for their own safety.

Cloud Strife says:

09:41am | 17/05/11

Then get off your arse and do something, instead of whinging about ‘teh p00r menzzzz!!!’ on the Punch all day.

You talk and talk and talk, but you never actually DO anything about it.

Tubesteak says:

09:50am | 17/05/11

Carz, you missed the point. Again. Not only did Erick mention some things that men can do to prevent themselves from being victims, but he also mentioned some things women can do. It’s what any normal risk averse person will do.

You will never prevent sexual assault or common assault for that matter. These things will happen. But if you take some personal responsibility you can minimise the risk of it happening. This can range from not wearing revealing clothing to not going into certain places after dark.

Our legal system is founded on the belief that everyone is innocent until proven guilty. This should remain. Therefore, the only way you can prevent something from happening to you is if you minimise the risk of it happening in the first place.

Eleanor says:

10:00am | 17/05/11

Erick, I’m a little disappointed in you. The point of view that says if a woman dresses sexy, it’s her own fault if she gets raped is just as offensive towards men. It suggests that all men are nothing more than knuckle-dragging neanderthals who think only with their dicks and are not in any way above their ‘baser’ instincts.

Septimus says:

10:17am | 17/05/11

Sarah M,

How dare you, a woman, think you can advise the men of the country on how to take steps to prevent something happening to us.  YOU have some nerve!!!  We should be able to behave however we feel without having to take advice from women.  TORY!  Get an article out on this PRONTO!!!

Bernard says:

10:24am | 17/05/11

No Erick, as a man I should be able to drink as much alcohol as I want and make a few choice comments to the biggest punters I can find in the rougher bars in the Cross. I have freedom of speech after all and it’s entirely legal.

I wouldn’t have any contribution to anything that happens to me after that. Entirely blameless, yesirree

Eleanor says:

10:32am | 17/05/11

@SarahM - You’re blaming the victim! Shame on you.

@Eleanor - Giving safety advice doesn’t assume anything about ALL men. It simply recognises the fact that some bad people exist.

Markus says:

10:48am | 17/05/11

Funny thing, Sarah M, is that in your attempt to be as hyperbolic as possible, you have presented point (5) which gives incredibly good advice: dress for the situation.

Don’t feel like being hassled and perhaps roughed up by a bunch of angry drunken Collingwood supporters? Don’t wear an Essendon jersey to a pub in Collingwood!
Don’t want to be insulted by a bunch of bogans? Don’t go to a tradie pub dressed as a hipster!

Sure, this is a free country, and you should have the right to do any of the above. Doesn’t mean any are a smart idea though.

Erick is a legend says:

10:48am | 17/05/11

Yet, again, Erick is spot on.

Despite the bad press the cadet at the Australian Defence Force Academy generated, secretly filming a sex act is actually a recommended practice in an age where false rape accusations occur, and the falsely accused is often convicted.

Erick says:

10:56am | 17/05/11

How embarrassment! “Eleanor” at 09.32am is me, Erick. I can’t believe I typed in the wrong name. Just goes to show that work dulls the mind.

G says:

12:31pm | 17/05/11

I fail to understand how wearing jeans and a t-shirt is some kind of self defence tactic.

Erick says:

02:19pm | 17/05/11

I fail to understand how suggesting possible self defence tactics is somehow “blaming the victim”.

Adam says:

02:59pm | 17/05/11

“Take some personal responsibility for your safety” probably sums the argument up well. Police wear bulletproof vests to work and try to get partnered up with someone who is strong and fit partner; usually a male because female officers have lower fitness standards. This is because they acknowledge some bad people may do bad things to them in the real world. Sure, they could pretend they live in utopia and go to work with no gun, no taser, no vest, no self defence training, a scawny unfit female partner, etc, however, they’d get their ass handed to them at the first sign of trouble. Furthermore, they want to go home to their families at the end of work so they realise there is a need to take some personal responsibility for their own safety in the real world and to minimise the risk of being hurt by taking reasonable precautions. We should all do the same because we do not live in a perfect society.

Alastair says:

03:55pm | 17/05/11

I fail to see why fear of reprisal (i.e. rape) is the only consideration offered as to why it’s not ok to be sexual offensive, provocative, or just plain disrespectful of those around you?

If it were generally accepted that nobody had the right to strike you no matter the circumstances would you attempt to reclaim the word d*ckh**d too?

Question, if no mean no why are you women struggling with the fact that we men have said no you do not have the right to impose your sexuality on us without our consent? If you want no to mean no you have to hear it as well as say it.

Now, If we focus specifically on the issue of rape with regards to provocative clothing you’ll find that the so called victim was not raped because the offender couldn’t control his lust you’ll find she was raped because he no longer felt he should have to control his rage.

Provocative dress may not be the sole cause of rapes but you’d find rape would be far less common if women actual respected a man’s right to say no.

I feel it is my right today to go about my business and enter any neutral public space without having to be exposed to the other genders private parts. What do you think my chances are? And what do you think the outcry would be if women were not afforded the right I’m guaranteed to be denied?

Rape or no rape you are obligated to be decent in public. And if you refuse to act decently you bring any consequences on yourself. Now rape is a crime no matter how it happens but I refuse to call people stupid enough to bring it upon themselves as victims. As far as I’m concerned they were competing in a contest to see who could do the most inappropriate thing to others and lost. I.e they are a loser not a victim, it may be tragic for them but it’s not worth my pity, that’s reserved for people who do the right thing.

Kika says:

04:10pm | 17/05/11

Erick - how many ‘false’ accusations of rape are assumed false on the lack of evidence? It is so hard to prove rape has occurred because a) it may be some time after the event that the victim feels ok enough to speak about it let alone report it b) the alleged offender would have to leave some evidence that they’ve been busy and c) witnesses are not often around when rapes occur. So without physical evidenec you need witnesses. Without witnesses you don’t have proof. Therefore, the alleged offender is acquitted on lack of evidence. Theferore the allegation then becomes accusation.

Alastair says:

04:41pm | 17/05/11

Kika, the answer to your question is none. the laws surrounding a rape allegation are structured in such a way that the allegation itself is considered sufficient to go to trial and in some place sufficient for conviction sans any evidence he didn’t do it. Thus unless an allegation is proven false either by admission or in a court of law it’s not counted as a false rape claim. In other words no we are not confusing a lack of conviction for a false rape allegation.

Ghost says:

08:00pm | 17/05/11

Alastair,

You have no idea how many rape complaints are dismissed by the Police because they are false.  It’s routine.

Liam says:

08:11pm | 17/05/11

I think people are looking to far into this, on both sides.
Im a bloke and in no way do i ever blame the victim of sexual assault (male or female) for ‘inciting’ rape.
I dont think that is the main point of this slut march thing.
I think this is just girls wanting to dress like a slut but dont want to be called a slut, its just the same as if I wanted to wear a shirt that is 3 sizes to small for me and gel and spike my hair but I dont want to be called a ‘metro’.
If you wear boob tubes and mini skirts, you are dressing like a slut, wether you are one or not, and I dont really care.
I think you girls do it more to stand out from other girls and seek the attention from guys, but again couldn’t care less.
Just stop trying to associate rape with this!

Matthew says:

01:41pm | 18/05/11

Sarah M, clearly you are incorrect.  I play video games a lot and have never been in a physical fight.  Also, I enjoy rap music.

Please don’t blame Gamers and people that listen to violent music/watch violent movies for this.  Guns don’t kill people, people kill people.

T says:

09:23am | 17/05/11

Yeah but what will the jury gossip about during their deliberations…?

I mean, juries are primarily made up of older women who have missed their favourite soap. Ehel and Flo need something juicy to tide them over.

I don’t think you’ve thought this through…

Leah says:

11:59am | 17/05/11

“I mean, juries are primarily made up of older women who have missed their favourite soap. “

Dunno about the juries you’ve been on, but of the 3 I’ve been on, I can recall only 3 or 4 middle aged women, most of whom were career women actually missing work rather than “their favourite soap”, plus 2 or 3 elderly women and 2 or 3 young uni-aged/just-entering-the-workforce aged girls. The rest were men, of all ages. The older women who would be “missing their favourite soap” are probably stay-at-home-mums who can get out of jury duty because they have children to care for.

I don’t think you can make those sorts of assumptions about juries and how they’d respond to such a case…

Aaron says:

01:01pm | 17/05/11

Here is where the problem lies: Consent, do you get all parties involved to sign a contract declaring that they consent to the sexual acts that are about to take place? There used to be a time when consent was as simple as “Wanna?” “Sure”. I am waiting for the day where you need witnesses etc to confirm that consent was received, oh wait it already is like that.

LP says:

09:34am | 17/05/11

Yes people do horrible things - always, have, always will. You aren’t going to change that.

And people will believe what they want to believe - you aren’t going to change that either.

Slothy says:

10:00am | 17/05/11

“If we were to take the actual precautions to prevent sexual assault - never leave our homes, deadbolt fucking everything, don’t have jobs, don’t have male acquaintances or relatives (or female, if you are male victim of female-perpetrated assault), never ever drink, trust nobody - it would trap us in our homes and we would effectively be allowed no role to play in society, powerless. And that’s exactly what rapists of women want: they hate us, and nothing would make them happier than a world where we have no agency and opportunity.”

I can’t add anything to this post that will sum up the argument better than this quote. Brilliantly said.

Tim says:

10:28am | 17/05/11

So you don’t believe in risk factors?
Never leave your homes? no one has said that.
Deadbolt everything? No, but using the locks on your doors are a good idea.
Don’t have jobs? again no one said that.
Don’t have male aquaintances? I’m sensing a theme here.
Never ever drink? How about just not enough to pass out in an alley?

No matter how much you don’t want to believe it, we increase or reduce the risks to our personal safety by our actions and behaviour. Sure if something does happen it’s not our fault but making it less likely to occur in the first place is just common sense.

Helen says:

11:04am | 17/05/11

Great post Bec.

The one precipitating factor in a person’s rape is the presence of a rapist. One can be an 80-plus-year old woman in her own bed, to take a recent disgusting example. Or one can be a hotel maid going about her daily employment, to take an even more recent example. Ditto all the other women who have been raped by someone they thought they could trust. Being virtuous and covering up doesn’t prevent rape any more than skimpy dressing excuses it.

Sad Sad Reality says:

11:37am | 17/05/11

bec, your comment surmises the problem with Orwellian clarity. How dare these hapless Punch rubes suggest women act responsibly when out on the town. Women can and will be vicitimised anywhere at any time, and thus it matters not if they stumble into a McDonald’s in Kings Cross at 4am on a Sunday looking like K$sha, smelling like regurgitated goon and throwing their arms around every heavily tattooed evolutionary hiccup in the place. What do we want them to do? Act like every other adult in the world? That’s, like, totally, stupid, like, wow you’re hot.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: Accountability = chick Kryptonite.

Elphaba says:

12:53pm | 17/05/11

“throwing their arms around every heavily tattooed evolutionary hiccup in the place.”

Hehehe, I like that…

Tozman says:

08:57am | 17/05/11

wtf?
so what you’re saying is, you should be able to wear clothing that is designed to make you look good, but noone is allowed to look at you?

that just defeats the purpose. you may as well wear a ripped up old tracksuit and noone will blink twice at you.

god i hate feminists…

W says:

09:40am | 17/05/11

Allergic to pervs - that was probably the stupidest post I’ve read today. Congratulations.

Here’s something that may shock you (but not the rest of us intelligent people) - some people (both men and women) dress to be looked at.

Why do you think you see young women dressed in barely there dresses on cold Winter nights? Similarly for guys who have ripped sleeves to expose the guns in the same weather?

It aint for comfort sweetheart.

I think I speak for a lot of people when I say we are allergic to people like you with such stupidity..

Did I just feed a troll? I think I may have.

Geoff - Brisbane says:

09:57am | 17/05/11

Have you not brought a womens mag with an article about good looking men. What makes you so special? Do you find it offensive when women check out men?

You are one of two types of women.

1) A looker who only claims she doesn’t like attention, then gets old and becomes a cougar in her lust for attention.
OR
2) A fatty who does not get any attention from the guys and is jelious of her friends, thus makes outrageous claims like “it is offensive for men to look at women”.

Going off your second paragraph i assume its option 2

Barry says:

10:02am | 17/05/11

Yeah, I’m struggling to decipher whether or not this is sarcasm . . . .

TheRealDave says:

10:09am | 17/05/11

Ahh yes, the old, hey, I’m hanging it all out on show…but only to guys I want to look at me and not those I consider beneath me, those guys are jsut freaky pervs.

Sorry, doesn’t work that way. You hang it all out and ALL guys will look….and most of the girls as well.

Reign yourselves in says:

10:50am | 17/05/11

In case any one was still wondering, there’s obviously a lot of entitlement. If we go by the comments to ‘allergic to perves.’ To the point where the perves expose themselves and wonder if the allergic one is a troll.

Well no, she is not, nor is she any of what you are suggesting in your seriously deluded minds. She is just your average women who comes home washing the snot, drivel and drool of herself after having been exposed to the likes of you. Much as you may not be able to comprehend this but I was not created as eye candy for you. Nor do I and women like me dress for guys like you. We dress for style and comfort.

Some of us are highly allergic to guys like you who are not in control of their own eyes and seriously deranged with regards to your perception of how women are to be treated.

Erick says:

11:26am | 17/05/11

If you want to see a sickening sense of entitlement, just consider the over-privileged females in this thread. They think they have a right to control where men point their eyes!

Women have a right to wear whatever they want. Men have a right to look at whatever they want. If you precious princesses can’t deal with reality, that’s your problem.

Helen says:

11:27am | 17/05/11

“Why do you think you see young women dressed in barely there dresses on cold Winter nights? Similarly for guys who have ripped sleeves to expose the guns in the same weather?

It aint for comfort sweetheart.”

Don’t you just love that passive-aggressive “sweetheart”? Healthy people assume people who dress up to look good are doing just that, dressing up to look good and be admired. However this commenter seems to be implying they are asking to be raped. This is the pathology in society that the Slutwalk is attempting to uncover and bring into the light. I’m very pleased that the Slutwalk has brought this topic out and allowed some discussion which goes deeper than the usual “chicks are asking for it, too bad”.

DDA says:

11:28am | 17/05/11

Trolly troll troll

Alison says:

11:37am | 17/05/11

Did you learn about Male Gaze in a womyn’s study class?

The only thing worse than being noticed is not being noticed. So many bitter 30+ year old females.

Dieter Moeckel says:

12:11pm | 17/05/11

GFood onya Alison. How true. I wear different coloured Crocs. Inoitially because a puppy chewed among the pairs I had, then I noticed that people were noticing ME because I wore different coloured Crocs - kids would nudge their mums and point - I was reminded of the Monty Python skit in which the adage arose ; “What is worse than being noticed? Not being noticed.” to extrapolate: What is worse than being perved on? Not being perved on.” And as for washing off the drool snot - get a grip there is no violence or contact in a look. If you get close enough to attract snotm drool and other bodily fluids your are simply too close and it really is your own fauklt.

Tim the Toolman says:

01:30pm | 17/05/11

There’s either a lot of trolls, or a lot of idiots in this thread.  I’m siding towards the latter.  If you have an issue with people looking at you, that’s YOUR issue.  Seriously.  100%.  You have mental issues.  Go get help or never leave the house and board up your windows. 

How mind-numbingly stupid must you be to think that people can avoid looking at you.  I mean, it’s almost an unimaginable level of stupidity that requires an absolute ignorance of the basics of reality.  My eyes collect light from the world.  That’s it.  If light happens to bounce off you and then hit my eyes, that’s what happens.  You don’t get to cry “Oh Noesss!!  He’s raping me with his eyes!!111 My reflected photons are in his body!!!11 Rape!!!” 

Do everyone a favour…don’t post again until you’ve fixed your issues.

Gees says:

01:35pm | 17/05/11

@ allergic to pervs

And here I am telling my husband it’s okay to look but not touch…...mmmm

Erick says:

02:25pm | 17/05/11

@Helen - “However this commenter seems to be implying they are asking to be raped.”

No. This commenter seems to be implying that they are asking to be looked at.

The fact that you somehow manage to interpret that as “asking to be raped” is an example of the pathology of feminism. It is all in your head.

Erick says:

02:28pm | 17/05/11

@Tim the Toolman - Excellent comment! One could also add that if male drivers took the feminists’ advice not to look at women, there would be a lot more pedestrian fatalities.

Alastair says:

05:03pm | 17/05/11

So yet again we have a woman claiming she can do whatever she wants but man is to be told what he can and cant do.

Maybe a throw away line will get the point across.

They are my eyes and i’ll do what i want with them nomatter how it makes you feel!

Everyone agrees with the principle of that right?

for Timmy says:

05:36pm | 17/05/11

Timmy boy how embarrassing that you need to expose yourself not only as a perv but actually demanding your bit of eye candy wherever you go.

It’s because of people like you my dear, that women wear burka’s.

grumpy says:

06:28pm | 17/05/11

Well you better kill yourself now if thats how you feel, because what you described is pretty much the only reason any of us are here.  Girls lie about things about themselves to not appear a way that will appear bad to a guy she likes, guys like to look at and even talk to sexy women. Get a life loser.

fairsfair says:

10:21am | 17/05/11

I am personally, not blaming the victim. It is not even worth trying to explain myself though as I am “well meaning but fundamentally wrong”. Apparently.

Septimus says:

01:27pm | 17/05/11

Unfortunately…all these ‘good ideas’ are wasted on the criminal to begin with - a point you can’t seem to get you head around Tory.

You seem to advocate certain safety warnings…just not dress???

St. Michael says:

01:28pm | 17/05/11

I could totally get behind my kids being taught to be ninjas in school.  My very own miniature hit squad that I don’t have to pay at award rates!

Markus says:

01:28pm | 17/05/11

Funny Tory, seems a lot of those ideas you have presented - be aware of your situation, don’t walk around like a victim (hint: stumbling around drunk and alone in a city late at night screams ‘victim’) - are exactly the same risk minimisation suggestions that got everyone howled down yesterday as ‘blaming the victim’ and being as bad as Al-Hilaly and his ‘uncovered meat’ statement.

fairsfair says:

01:35pm | 17/05/11

Tory it is the umbrella statements that are the problem though.

You can walk like a victim, but you can’t dress like one? A violent attacker can pick out who they want to go for by the way they walk, but not by the way they dress? Dressing like a ‘slut’ doesn’t sent them a signal… at all? What about that they look like a slut - nobody will believe them anyway? What about they look like a slut, they clearly don’t have the self respect someone who is dressed apropriately and walking with confidence does - easy prey.

I don’t hold my opinion in a sense that it is the victim’s fault - but that they must appreciate that their actions may set off one whacko that they encounter in their life. If refraining from dressing in a sexual manner avoids setting that one person off - well it is worth it.

And again, this is not an umbrella statement - this is directed toward attacks that originate in a social context, usually be a man that they have been dancing with all night and allowing to buy drinks for them. I am not talking about being raped by your husband or someone raping a Grandma in their house - nothing is going to stop those animals and that is where your suggestions have a place - I agree.

We as sexually empowered females however must recognise that we owe ourselves the respect. The respect to protect ourselves in the best way possible.

Erick says:

02:38pm | 17/05/11

@Tory - How, exactly, does offering safety advice equate to “blaming the victim”?

Duff says:

03:50pm | 17/05/11

@Tory - you know what?  I think we are all not very far off from agreeing wholeheartedly on this subject.  Safety classes.  Great idea!  Learn how to judge a situation.  How to play it safe.  Walk the right way.  Don’t make eye contact.  Stay close to friends.  It’s all good and I’m right there with you on all of that.  But why is “be careful how you dress” so completely outrageously different?  And why are we Al-Hilali’s for suggesting it might be a risk factor to consider?  You seem to have skipped over that part in your article.

Erick says:

07:51pm | 17/05/11

Tory, I didn’t realise that women considered their clothes as “something fundamental about themselves all the time” - a basic and irrefutable part of their identity. Perhaps this is simply a case where male and female perceptions are incompatible.

fairsfair says:

08:11pm | 17/05/11

No I don’t think so Erick. I certainly don’t think like that. Sorry Tory ICB on that one. I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree there.

Adam says:

08:40pm | 17/05/11

@ Tory - “Yes, I think telling people how to dress IS different to ‘safety advice’”.

I disagree. Police wear bullet proof vest to minimise the risk they are exposed to. Fire people wear fire retardant clothing that covers their whole body to reduce their risk. Construction workers wear hard hats. Cyclists wear high visibility lyrca (eww). Army people wear camouflage uniforms. People on fishing boats wear life vests, etc, etc all regardless of gender. I’m with Erick and Fairsfairs on this one; I call b*llshit.

Eva says:

06:52pm | 18/05/11

Tory,

you have just reminded me here of a documentary I watched that was about psychopaths and how they chose their victims…..it was always by the way they walk. So it would most certainly make sense to teach our children to walk assertively.

WRT says:

09:52am | 17/05/11

You can’t stop them. You can’t identify them early. Teaching men what you propose won’t solve the problem.

True story - about a decade ago I was a criminal defence lawyer. I remember a day where I had to visit another solicitor’s client for the purposes of getting a statement from him. The client was being held in high security at one of the state’s mental health facilities. He was charged with multple counts of rape which he was pleading guilty to. He told me about how voices in his head, which he thought was god but now thinks was the devil, were telling him to rape these women.

Cutting to the chase - nothing could have prevented those rapes.

Rape, most of the time, is about power, not sex. The male is satisfying his need for power over someone. And women are, generally, weaker and therefore present a easier target.

Markus says:

10:18am | 17/05/11

What is it with the “it’s not about sex, only power” mantra?
If it was only about power, surely they would just be beating the crap out of people, not getting themselves off?

Tim says:

10:20am | 17/05/11

“How about telling all men that they don’t actually have any automatic rights to women’s bodies? A lot of men seem to understand this…so again, what’s wrong with those who don’t? Let’s focus on them…. “

So you want to focus on the bad men by directing your points at all men? yeah that makes sense.

Markus says:

10:23am | 17/05/11

“so again, what’s wrong with those who don’t?”
Umm, they are criminally f**ked in the head, to the point where they don’t care that the consequences of their actions will be rotting in jail for the rest of their life.
Good luck with your walk. I’m sure it will totally make such characters realise the error of their ways…

Bernard says:

10:34am | 17/05/11

Sex Education in school left me with the feeling that my sexual urges were dirty and wrong and that if I showed any sort of sexual interest in a girl I was sleazy, stalkerish and a borderline rapist. Do you know how many years it took to deprogram myself from that (years without any sort of romantic relationship I might add)?

Don’t program young boys with this rot. I can understand teaching that consent is important, but too often female teachers go overboard with the concept of respect that makes it impossible for young boys to understand what a healthy attraction to women is. And then women wonder where all the normal, well adjusted, masculine men have gone.

Sad Sad Reality says:

10:38am | 17/05/11

WRT, 99.99% of rape doesn’t involve someone hearing voices. Thus the situation you describe is hardly the norm. Most rape is committed by sexually frustrated men or sexual opportunists. AKA they see someone they know in a nice summer dress and think why not or they break into a house to steal some things and think why not.

focus .. action says:

11:14am | 17/05/11

excellent point progressiveunite. It’s the lot of men who seem to understand this which need to get a little more active educating their brothers instead of standing by watching it all unfold. If good men do nothing..

Those who rape and sexually assault don’t always end up in jail and mentally deranged as they may be, this is not always diagnosed.

It’s up to all guys to get this right. Stop focussing on the women. Play an active part to set it right wherever you can.

Men don’t have automatic rights to women’s bodies.

Erick says:

11:32am | 17/05/11

Well said, Bernard.

Female sexuality is glorified in our feminist culture, while male sexuality is demonised. Yet another reason to hate feminism, and oppose everything it does.

Aaron says:

01:32pm | 17/05/11

Okay why do we always have to focus on men with this? I notice the lack of comments about the very recent cases of women molesting/penetrating kids and adults (the laws suggest that a woman can’t rape), and what happens? From what I’ve read they’ve all gotten away with slaps on the wrists and told not to do it again.

Let’s have a look at cases where women rape men and see how the victim blame game is played there: A woman rapes a man, the man reports it and the result is claims that it couldn’t happen because what man wouldn’t refuse sex and a man getting an erection is proof of consent.

If you want to know the reason why there is a larger proportion then before of men who are becoming “addicted to porn”, or are more aggressive than before it is the whole issue of consent. Confusion over consent and whether even getting consent will protect you means men tend to withdraw or lash out.

And yes I will look at a woman who appeals to me, just as I would know the same would happen if a woman found me appealing.

This shouldn’t be an issue of men vs women it should be an issue of community vs rape (regardless of gender in both instances).

Markus says:

01:43pm | 17/05/11

@focus .. action, that is the same stupid premise that White Ribbon Day is based on - that the 99% of men who acknowledge that rape is an abhorrent crime and would never have anything to do with it, should somehow be actively responsible for the 1% that have a criminal mindset, and aren’t even deterred by the threat of life imprisonment.

Do you seriously think we all know a rapist friend, but don’t report him to the police because we’re mates?
Hell, even if we did know a rapist, what are we to do exactly? Say “No mate, you shouldn’t be raping that girl, that’s disrespectful…”?

Tim says:

01:56pm | 17/05/11

Markus,
I think that’s exactly what they want you to do.
Get your cape and tights on and head out fighting against sexual assault.
I was trying to think of a suitable superhero name but I just don’t think that “Rapeman” would be appropriate.

Erick says:

02:43pm | 17/05/11

@focus - your comment is an insult to all men. Furthermore, attitudes like yours have destroyed the lives of many innocent men, through the effects of indoctrination and false accusation.

Every man should resist and oppose your tactics.

stranger danger says:

06:08pm | 17/05/11

Markus, Aaron, Tim and Erick. It is the culture of guys oogling girls which is the problem. If as a society we would agree on this then if a guy were to step out of line, one of his ‘brothers’ could pull him into line. That is where it would stop. Because many guys believe it their right to look women up and down, that’s step one. If you were to stop them right there, is not much chance anything more would happen because every one around them would be on top of it.

However, many guys obviously (on this forum) believe that they are entitled to look women up and down, they believe this is their birth right. Many women, sadly think this is a compliment and don’t recognise the insult.

For the less primitive there are many many different ways that men and women can interact without looking each other up and down. You however don’t seem to get that. I get it that you don’t get that. It makes this world kinda scary for lotsa women who get exposed to dirty men’s eyes undressing them where-ever they go. But hey, I get it, no-one is going to deny you your pleasures. You just need to know that I have to meet a women yet who enjoys being looked up and down. Much as some may think it is a compliment, it still creeps them out to have some stranger check them out.

Most of us were told at kindergarten to keep our eyes to ourselves, yes, it really is that immature.

Erick, here’s hoping that you’ll get some therapy, soon.

Slothy says:

09:49am | 17/05/11

Well for starters, if you want to go out dancing, try making it in to a club while dressed sensibly for the weather.

Secondly, maybe they do want to look sexually avaliable to men. Maybe they are out and out looking for someone to hook up with. That doesn’t take away their right to choose exactly which men they interact sexually with.

Why is it okay for a man to go to the gym, dress to show off his body, go out to pick up and then reject any interested women that don’t meet his standards, and not okay for a woman to do the same?

A woman may be sexually avaliable to someone, but that doesn’t mean sexually avaliable to everybody.

Jess says:

09:52am | 17/05/11

Okay.
So some women dress to attract attention. But acting on this attention needs to be consensual whether that person is wearing lingerie in Kings Cross or a potato sack in a Church.
As I understand, what Tory is trying to emphasise is that no matter what a woman is wearing, or whether she is sexually available, or how many sexual partners she has had, she can’t be blamed for her assault.
Being sexually available and being sexually assaulted are two very different things and to suggest that a woman (or man, for that matter) can and should avoid being attacked by ‘covering up’ is furthering victim blaming. It is no more or less morally reprehensible to rape a ‘cheap hooker’ than it is to rape a covered up virgin because non-consensual sex is non-consensual no matter what a person is wearing.

Paulb says:

10:13am | 17/05/11

analogy:  A deer should be able to select which mountain lion attacks it.  After all, even prey has rights.

iansand says:

10:24am | 17/05/11

My 16 year old daughter does not dress primarily for men.  As far as I can work out, she dresses as a competitor in some sort of undeclared (or perhaps it is declared) contest with other girls.

Jess says:

10:30am | 17/05/11

@Paul - Wow, that’s profoundly offensive. Likening victims of sexual assault to creatures on a food chain is a very poor choice of analogy.

Slothy says:

10:38am | 17/05/11

Paulb, you seem to be confused. Men are not animals and slaves to their natural instincts. Women are not prey. Consensual sex is not an attack. We are not in the animal kingdom. Hope this helps.

Displaying a desire for sex is not an invitation for first in best served. It is an invitation to negotiate. Because we are humans capable of rational thought and decision making, not animals.

If you have are having trouble with this distinction, you probably shouldn’t be out in public.

Markus says:

10:59am | 17/05/11

@iansand that’s fairly naive of you. How do you think they judge the winner of said contest? By the amount of male attention they get.

iansand says:

12:58pm | 17/05/11

Markus - Have you ever walked down the street with a stylishly and fashionably dressed 16 year old?  It is fascinating.  Almost every passing girl between about 14 and 20+ looks her up and down awarding points.  Nothing to do with boys.  I have noticed it in Sydney.  And in Brisbane.  And New York.  And San Francisco. And Los Angeles.  My daughter, in turn, gives a running commentary about faux pas and pluses.

Tim says:

01:52pm | 17/05/11

Iansand,
methinks you might have gotten a bit old or you simply don’t want to think about your daughter getting attention from boys.
Yes girls will judge each other on how they look but the end game is always the male attention.
I don’t think your 16 year old daughter is going to come out and admit that around her dad. Just slightly awkward.

Markus says:

01:55pm | 17/05/11

Again, the scoring system is based on the amount of male attention* the outfit would get. Or rather, the amount they believe it would get.
Any claim to the contrary is complete BS.

*Good male attention. As per numerous comments provided in the last two days, girls crave male attention to their dress, but only from the men they wish to receive it from.

KH says:

02:11pm | 17/05/11

I wasn’t suggesting they shouldn’t have a choice, but I am suggesting that in a few cases this may be a factor.  You can’t just do whatever you want all the time - sometimes you have to exercise some judgement, and walking down dark streets late at night dressed like a hooker is probably not such a good idea….......  There is a time and a place for everything - inside a club you might be just fine, but in an environment that is uncontrolled you should be thinking it through a bit more….......I don’t think its wrong to point that out.

iansand says:

02:32pm | 17/05/11

Hands up everyone who has a 16 year old daughter.

Tim says:

02:59pm | 17/05/11

Iansand,
“Hands up everyone who has a 16 year old daughter”
Yep, and that’s the reason you’re not qualified to comment on what the usual 16 year old girl does.

Duff says:

03:23pm | 17/05/11

@Tim, I believe Iansand does have a daughter.  I too have a daughter and I have to admit that part of my viewpoint on this subject may be coming from the fact that I may be a bit over-protective of her.  But being a parent means you sometimes see things from a different angle than you might have before.  You tend to be a lot more pragmatic in your views.  “You’re not going out dressed like THAT are you?”.  This is probably what I sound like.  But, damn it, it just defies common sense and logic to think that a young girl shouldn’t take whatever precautions she should take - even erring on the side of caution by dressing appropriately - to keep safe.  Doesn’t it?  Or have I read the wrong rule book about life or something?

iansand says:

05:51pm | 17/05/11

Duff - I think Tim is saying that, because I have a daughter, I am not in a position to comment about how she behaves.

Grumpy says:

06:22pm | 17/05/11

You should say ALL women dress to attract attention. So do most guys. If girls didnt want attention from men at all they would shave their heads and never leave the house. Who cares what someone is wearing anyway. A hot girl is a hot girl, shed still be hot in a potato sack..

Slothy says:

09:58am | 17/05/11

But what if I don’t want a dog? What if I think they’re smelly, loud and dirty? What if I want a dog but I’m not home enough to look after it? What if I’m allergic to dog hair? Am I contributing to being robbed? At what stage do I stop letting criminals dictate the way I live my life?

Your point is meaningless anyway, because the advice that women are given on how to avoid rape does not match up with the mindset of the people doing the raping. They can follow all the rules, give up all the freedoms and not protect themselves one iota because the rules come out our perception of rape, not the reality.

stay safe Slothy says:

11:28am | 17/05/11

Slothy it is not about blaming the victim. It is about being realistic and just being aware and prepared knowing that there’s quite a lot of nutjobs out there. Just read this forum. A lot of entitlement. To keep saying that there shouldn’t be and it is wrong. Yes duh. But the fact is that they are out there and I rather have our youngsters being realistic and prepared and with this awareness fight the injustices of this world without, hopefully, getting caught up in it too much.

The focus should be directed away from women as progressivesunite says and more focussed on the guys. As far as I’m concerned all of them ought to pull each other into line instead of standing by the sidelines with useless grins on their faces blaming the rapists. In cases like this where it concerns all of us, anyone who doesn’t speak up is complicit for condoning the culture.

Chris L says:

04:23pm | 17/05/11

That’s right, StaySafe, we must avoid even looking like we might possibly be suggesting women take some responsibility. Instead let’s just blame all men regardless of whether they have committed such a crime or even know anyone who has. Much fairer.

Of course you won’t see us organising marches and protests over such a ridiculous comment. I guess we just don’t crave attention in that way.

fairsfair says:

10:05am | 17/05/11

I don’t agree with that Persephone.

There is a difference between being wary of all animals while you are scuba diving and staying out of the water completely. It is not that you think all of them will bite/sting/eat you, it is that some of them might, so it is best to modify your own behaviour as to not cause harm. My caution aside, a shark could approach from behind. I can not eliminate that risk, but I can avoid being barbed by a cone shell by not picking it up of its ledge.

Same applies to my own social behaviour. As a modern, young woman I know that the majority of men out there are genuine decent human beings, there are some that are horrible. I may never be able to deflect the attention of the extreme, but I can try not to draw attention to myself by bahaving and presenting my person as overtly sexual.

By you implying that there is absolutely no social trigger for an otherwise legally and morally conforming male to sexually assult a female YOU are implying that all men are potential rapists. Irony, huh beacuse I am not sure that is what you were seeking to imply.

fairsfair says:

10:08am | 17/05/11

Ooh sorry, my previous post I called you Persephone…... sorry Perse, sorry PU.

Tim says:

10:41am | 17/05/11

You really have no idea what we are saying do you?

Elphaba says:

10:44am | 17/05/11

@fairsfair, we agree, yet again…

Alastair says:

05:35pm | 17/05/11

Except that’s not the argument! The argument is they have a duty to respect the right and wishes of those around them.

Rape is what’s being discussed because it’s the most emotive topic and because women seem only to respect the possibility of reprisal for their action and not the possibility that what they are doing is intrinsically wrong.

The sentiment of the cover up brigade is not that rape is right, it’s that when you do the wrong thing to those around you, those around you stop caring when someone does the wrong thing back.

The question being posed is; does a girl who disregards the sexual rights and wishes of men have a right to pity when a man disregards her sexual rights. We do not say a girl does not have a right not to be raped, we say that there is a difference in the response required when her right is violated based on how she was conducing herself.

The message is stop asking for pity if you show no respect.

Annie P says:

12:15pm | 17/05/11

Why does society make assumptions about what rapists look for? 

Marked for Mayhem by Chuck Hustmyre and Jay Dixit in Psychology Today January/February 2009 states: 
“Criminals, like their victims, come in all varieties, but researchers have found that they don’t choose their victims randomly.” 
“There are degrees of risk for a type of crime based on your career, lifestyle, relationships, movements, and even personality, aspects of which are manifest in yoru behaviour and demanor.” 
“Sexual predators in particular look for people they can easily overpower.  The rapist is going to go after somebody who’s not paying attention, who looks like they’re not going to put up a fight, who’s in a location that’s going to make this more convenient,” says Tod Burke, a criminologist at Radford University in Virginia.” 
“Conventional wisdom holds tht women who dress provocatively draw attention and put themselves at risk of sexual assault.  But studies show that it is women with passive, submissive personalities who are most likely to be raped - and that they tend to wear body-concealing clothing, such as high necklines, long pants and sleeves, and multiple layers…The hallmarks of submissive body language, such as downward gaze and slumped posture, may even be misinterpreted by rapists as flirtation”

Isn’t it odd, that rapists are more likely to target the covered up woman?  Sure blows out of the water most of the judgemental rot on this message board - on both sides of the debate.  Get educated people!

TracyH says:

04:24pm | 17/05/11

Annie P…totally agree with your post. It seems common sense to me that perpetrators of crime seek out vulnerability, and dressing sexily doesn’t scream ‘vulnerable’ to me.

V says:

11:31am | 17/05/11

Well said.

Also, the world is never going to change in this respect.

Helen says:

11:56am | 17/05/11

So, what did the Grandmother do wrong? flashed her nightie provocatively, did she?

And yes, when rape occurs, it’s the rapist’s fault, not the raped person. That is the entire point. I’m sure you’d be the first to be enraged if you suffered a humiliating assault and were blamed for it.

Q says:

12:41pm | 17/05/11

Helen - I’m not sure you can read.  Try again.  Rape is a violent act with no provocation.  Too many are crying rape when they have behaved irresponsibly.  These two situatuations are not the same thing.  I’m not talking about sexual predators who prey on the weak but those who have made bad decisions that they regret later.

Great comment says:

01:53pm | 17/05/11

This has got to be the best comment of the day! Well done, HISRATFZ!

Beck says:

11:35am | 17/05/11

I agree whole heartedly - stop the yuck ones who think they are hot letting it all hang out…

I mean, come on, sometimes we are eating food when they walk past.

Tchom says:

01:12pm | 17/05/11

Thank god someone dropped the pretense and started telling it like it is. But why stop at just removing them from the public eye when we can get rid of them altogether? I always thought we gave up on that eugenics thing way too early…

Being obese has its merits for women says:

01:50pm | 17/05/11

I once regurgitated a bagel when I saw an obese woman walk by the cafe window wearing nothing but Lycra that were 18 sizes too small for her.

But to her credit, she will never need to worry about being raped.

St. Michael says:

01:30pm | 17/05/11

Oh, dear ... you were doing so well until that last paragraph…

Tim says:

02:38pm | 17/05/11

With the number of victims walking down dark alleys in all these analogies, you think the alleys would be busy enough to make rape pretty hard to perpetrate

stay safe says:

01:25pm | 17/05/11

This whole discussion highlights the problem in society where men and women sit on opposite sides. Few men actually side with the women and many women side against the women who need their support. THAT is the problem.

Stats tell us that women are vicitmised way over and above men. Our jails are filled with men, not women.

We need an attitude change where woman are treated as people not objects. It’s as simple as that.

A slut walk is confusing the issue, the word slut gives me the creeps.

If men were to keep their hands, dicks and eyes to themselves unless they’re invited, there would never be such a hideous thing as a slut walk. I understand where the girls are coming from but I think it is the wrong angle entirely. It’s not about you girls, it’s about guys needing to clean up their acts. Till then, keep yourselves safe pls.

Duff says:

01:27pm | 17/05/11

The thing of value that you (and apparently Tory) seem to be saying is that there is, in your view, no correlation between what a person wears and their likelihood of being raped, so who cares about what women wear.  That is a totally valid point.

But what I find irks me is the next bit: that if one thinks there might be such a correlation and that women should therefore be advised to take care, than this makes them a victim blamer and no better than Hilali. 

I think that takes it too far.  Sure, there may be some who think like that and to hell with them.  But most of us are just applying our common sense to an issue which, admittedly, we probably don’t know a lot about.  But that doesn’t make us a pack of women-hating old codgers.

St. Michael says:

01:48pm | 17/05/11

@ Duff: I’m saying that people frothing at the mouth over the fact their daughters are dressing like Britney Spears should not be hiding behind “we’re just trying to keep your safe” as a justification for their criticism of their dress.  That’s all.

I didn’t say one’s a victim blamer if you say a woman should cover up.  I’m merely saying it’s like suggesting asteroid insurance when you consider how much difference scanty dress is going to make to whether or not you get sexually assaulted.

Duff says:

03:08pm | 17/05/11

Ok, but that’s not what Tory has said in this article.  She says that not only is there little chance of dress being a factor in rape but that apparently you are a well meaning, but nevertheless Hilali-type, Sharia-loving mysoginist for even suggesting anything to the contrary.  Thanks for clearing that up, Tory!  I thought I was just some average Australian dad with a young daughter who he cares about and wants to be safe.  I better get myself down to the local mosque and start growing a beard.

TracyH says:

12:29pm | 18/05/11

St Micheal…another voice of logic amongst the madness! You have articulated precisely what I believe is the case. Well done!!!! It’s ridiculous that others have made a comparison about police wearing kevlar etc…and thus for women to dress modestly is a ‘risk management’ issue. Bollocks!! You, St Micheal, are a very wise person!!

Sad Sad Reality says:

12:46pm | 17/05/11

Bravo.

Kate says:

04:06pm | 17/05/11

Well said.

I would never think that somebody dressed provocatively deserved to be sexually assaulted or raped. I would, however, form a judgement about them, based on how they present themselves, and that judgement probably wouldn’t be positive.
You can look attractive, feel sexy, get positive attention, etc without dressing like a stripper. If you choose to do so, that’s your right- but I can guarantee you that many people will take one look at you and go ‘what an idiot’.

Markus says:

02:07pm | 17/05/11

We aren’t talking about the men here. I am going to make a fairly safe assumption that none of the men commenting here have ever raped anyone. Or ever will.

Any attempt to ‘educate’ men as a whole are pointless. The men such a program would target already know, and the men that should be targetted won’t give a s**t, they will just continue on their merry raping ways regardless of how wrong you tell him it is.

Tim says:

02:50pm | 17/05/11

You’d try and pick up a naked woman in a lonely dark alley and you think other people need psychiatrist treatment?
What kind of sick freak are you?

killerbee says:

02:00pm | 17/05/11

bitten
So, if your attractive wife has been out on a night with the girls and comes home dressed in the latest fashion, a bit tipsy that you then have the right to throw her on the floor, rip off her clothes and if she objects, smack her across the mouth and have sex with her because she is asking for it?

Grow up.

Tim says:

02:04pm | 17/05/11

Bitten,
that is by far the best comment on this thread.
100% agree, well done.

Bitten says:

02:41pm | 17/05/11

@ killerbee - what? If you were able to read and comprehend, you might see I never made any statement that remotely reflects your comment.

Kika says:

04:30pm | 17/05/11

Well written and very true.  There are a few opportunistic attacks that do happen, but statistically you are more likely to be assaulted by someone you know. And it is quite funny sometimes the company people seem to choose.

grumpy says:

05:12pm | 17/05/11

How would anyone ever get raped if all this was true? its hard to find a girl in overalls who has a ponytail up, all same day and is alone in a dark secluded place.

I know a few girls who say they were raped, and i dont believe them, I think it was buyers remorse, ASD (anti-slut defence). Theyre not girls who ever used restraint with guys, and rarely said no in the first place. As cool as they are to hangout with, i couldn’t say they put themselves in good situations. The real rapes are reported and any girl who lies about it should be prosecuted and face the same imprisonment that the guy would have if he had been convicted, rape laws are one sided, equality?. As soon as this is even questioned in a guy he is tainted by it, its not fair. I dont believe ANYONE should EVER make anyone do something they dont wanna do, and for me this includes everything you can think of, I dont care what people think i should be doing or whatever, im not after what you are after but a rapist has a twisted reality. I dont believe there are that many of them and how do these people get stats on unreported rapes?...by asking the girls that i know? Not saying it doesn’t happen but why be worried about something that probably never will if you dont put yourself in stupid situations with random guys alone if you are not going to be able to protect yourself even with a self defence class, i doubt many girls could over power even a weak guy. I love hoes, but ill always side with my bro’s, unless i know they’re doing the wrong thing.

Girls if you were raped, go straight to the police, then a doctor to atleast have some proof. If not, and you plan on using your feminn powers to get what you want, or expect, then go to hell.

Cloud Strife says:

09:39pm | 17/05/11

@Grumpy

Do you know hard it is to get physical evidence? Esp if the perp wears a condom?

Steve says:

05:35pm | 17/05/11

Under Sharia law is there such a thing as a husband raping a wife or a father raping a daughter?

NESLIHAN KUROSAWA says:

02:18pm | 18/05/11

Hi Steve,

I am not really certain how to answer that question at all!  Since I have never lived in a society or a country where the sharia laws exist and rule.  Good point though!!

Ari Avery says:

08:38pm | 17/05/11

ok, so you may not have read all the replies, but please read this profile of rapists and their victims.
the idea of women moaning about being raped when they did everything to encourage it is one that should be explored. because if it’s true, then we should do everything to re-educate those women and help them stop being so stupid.

people did explore that idea and here’s what they came up with:
http://www.smh.com.au/national/profile-finds-rapists-ordinary-and-nice-20101207-18ogh.html

it’s not true, unfortunately, or it would be a problem much easier to fix.  truth is, rapists are hard to detect.

anon. says:

08:50pm | 17/05/11

hey can i ask you a favour? could you please google a profile of rapists and their victims? i understand how easy it is to think that people might be acting stupid - i kind of think humans can be super stupid. most of the time. but the evidence shown by unbiased researchers is that rape is not a case of the ‘victim’ attracting unwanted attention. nice, cleanly, demurely dressed women get raped by people who seem friendly, non scary and nice, just like you, me and tori.  (and men get raped too, by other men and by women.).

Ari Avery says:

08:43pm | 17/05/11

do murder victims need to take responsibility for having associated with murderers?

can i ask you a polite question? could you please describe for me who you think rapists are? what jobs do they do? and who are their victims? what are the statistics?

i am going to re-post a link i put up a bit further because i don’t know that everyone will read all the responses so here it is, a profile of a rapist. not a drug using, lower class sex fiend that people could see coming a mile off., actually someone very good at hiding their tracks and their behaviour.

http://www.smh.com.au/national/profile-finds-rapists-ordinary-and-nice-20101207-18ogh.html

Iman says:

09:28pm | 17/05/11

I wouldn’t be taking Omani customs as a correct interpretation of the Qu’ran. I would be reading the Qu’ran. And yes, it is in the Qu’ran and many hadiths that women should cover their hair, to their wrists right down to ankles. That is Sharia.

Mohammed Yousef (Not Really) says:

01:41am | 18/05/11

Iman,
Isn’t Islam the “Religion of Peace?” If so, aside from the Maldives, Oman is probably the most peaceful Islamic nation on Earth! Granted covering up may be in the Qu’ran however, tribal traditions are more prevelant in the Middle East than an allegiance to Islam. Islam, as I have already stated, is nothing more than a political tool (Al Qaeda, Taliban, Wahibism etc).
The basic right of a woman to wear whatever the hell she wants, thus allowing her the freedom to make her own choices, should not be imposed by any “religion.” Islam - Submit. Submit or die. Pretty simple, but Oman has moved on!

Septimus says:

06:26am | 18/05/11

Men take safety precautions too!  Any thoughts on the freedoms and advantages acquired (sometimes grossly in your favour) just because you were born a particular gender?

anon says:

11:35pm | 18/05/11

sorry, but this is idiotic.

you are confusing rapists: secretive, manipulative, trying to avoid detection, with a shark: obviously scary and dangerous. (have you never heard mack the knife?)

a shark looks like a shark. it has fuck-off sharp teeth, cold eyes and a body at least 5x larger than most of its’ prey.

a rapist looks like the guy next door. he or she looks like your best friend, your boy or girlfriend.
there are police person rapists, your best mate’s friend over for a drink rapists, some guy from work, your babysitter, judge rapists. there are politician rapists.

so it is a complete fallacy to imagine that a woman is more likely to get raped if she is wearing slutty clothing.
rapists don’t all have the same taste you know!

http://www.newspepper.su/news/2011/5/16/the-frenchwoman-has-decided-to-sue-mr-strausskahn-for-rape/