It’s called Christmas folks, with a capital C

TCB 24 X 7 says:

12:53pm | 01/12/10

Yes and what is wrong with that.
Any intelligent person would know that the NBN could be a white elephant with the way technology changes.Yeah health reform the whole 11 beds created over the past 3 years.Lets not forget border protection, there is none . And whats wrong with celebrating christmas after all you live in the year of our lord 2010. Anno Domini

NicoleG says:

01:05pm | 01/12/10

OMG, I agree with you on this 100%. He is magnificent isn’t he just? I’m extremely jealous of all those Victorians. Finally they have a Premier who gives a sh!t.

TChong says:

01:38pm | 01/12/10

NicoleG, dont you go getting all hot and flustered about big Ted, you have publicly committed yourself to Pyne.
Yur position of VP of Pynes Pals is looking increasingly shakey.
The lifelong membership you seek,musta got lost in the mail.
Cheers.

NicoleG says:

02:25pm | 01/12/10

Don’t worry Chongy, I shall remain committed always. And I have the life long membership

mickijo says:

02:52pm | 01/12/10

After nearly three decades of living in politically correct darkness, someone has switched on the lights! Hooray! On yer Ted , a merry and holy Christmas to you. Keep them shining.

nosthow says:

03:56pm | 01/12/10

@mickijo - the only thing is mickijo Big Teddy hasnt told you its a 5 watt bulb !  hahahahaaaaaaaa

NicoleG says:

05:02pm | 01/12/10

It may only be a 5watt bulb, but it’s better than what you’re running on. Two AAA batteries, one’s half charged and the other’s about to kark it. And they’re not rechargeable.

Colin J Ely says:

05:28pm | 01/12/10

Nosthow
I am glad that you are a big fan of Big Ted’s. I heard that he was thinking of appointing an Agent-General to Harare and your name had been raised!?

nosthow says:

06:36pm | 01/12/10

@NicoleG - being a SNAG Nicole I am cut to the quik !! hahahh Good to see we both luv Big Teddy huh ?

nosthow says:

06:44pm | 01/12/10

@TChong - “Pynes Pals” Chongy - poor Nicole must be scraping the barrel going on that tiny list ! Mrs Pyne (Mummy) is probably the only other Pynes Pal ! hahhahhhhhhhhh

Rosie says:

06:48pm | 01/12/10

LOL NicoleG What did you mean about the Two AAA batteries???????

- one half charged did you mean the Greens and the other two about to kark it was reference to Julia Gillard and two Independents who put her there????????

Congratulations & Best wishes to Big Ted for winning and joining the Western Australian Priemer as the second State Liberal Priemer. Go forth and celebrate Christmas the way you want. To win against a Labor Govt is big deal and I am sure is the best Christmas present you could have for you and your family!

Robert Smissen, rural SA, God's own country says:

10:29pm | 01/12/10

Is Ted John Howard’s love child? ?

NicoleG says:

11:41am | 02/12/10

Excuse me nosthow, but we actually have 13 members now. We’re still waiting for TC to join.

Rosie, hahahaha. I like that one

Leo says:

12:16pm | 02/12/10

@TCB 24 X 7 “Any intelligent person”? The arguement of someone with out facts to support them. And, how many attacks on Victoria’s border have there been? And, it’s Christmas.

nosthow says:

12:19pm | 02/12/10

@Colin J Ely - nosthow is always at the ready to serve his country Col - are there many honeys over there ? Me heap big Zulu - you my honey Zulu !

Tedd says:

01:20pm | 01/12/10

Australia is a post-Christian country, as is NZ, Canada, the UK and European countries.  We can still enjoy the history, stories, events, and messages though.

Jade says:

01:59pm | 01/12/10

How is the inclusion of nativity scenes in any way not injecting Jesus into school celebrations? I would say that it’s putting Jesus pretty much front and centre of the Christmas celebration, myself.

Christmas has never, ever been banned at schools as far as I am aware. It has merely been requested that teachers respect the beliefs of their students, and don’t use it, or allow their students to use it, as an opportunity for proselytising.

In all the schools I have experienced as a teacher, and all the schools that my friends have taught at, I have never heard of schools banning Christmas or not doing Christmas celebrations. I have heard deeply religious parents upset that the school included secular symbols of Christmas rather than religious ones in an effort to include all children, or taught about Santa. In one school, the Jehovah’s Witness parents of several children attempted to have the Santa visit and Christmas tree banned because it was discriminatory to their children as they couldn’t participate.

In another school I worked at, the Christian parents attempted to have the teachers stop the entire class from singing Six White Boomers, Jingle Bells, Frosty the Snowman and various other secular carols because their children weren’t allowed to sing them. So noone should.

Richo says:

09:54am | 04/12/10

Seriously - you don’t want the Christ in Christmas, then work on the day. Why enjoy a holiday that is *specifically* about the Christian faith if you don’t give a stuff? By celebrating it, you are condoning it.

X. Mass says:

01:18pm | 01/12/10

I think we should put the X back into Xmas.

Steph says:

01:33pm | 01/12/10

I had an old wise teacher in primary school who also felt the same way about this, but to our enlightenment, she located a document showing us that the name Christ was abbreviated to the symbol X in some cultures. Our aboption of this was widespread but its meaning soon forgotten.

Wallaby says:

01:58pm | 01/12/10

Xmas is not a modern abbreviation. See this link.
http://www.crivoice.org/symbols/xmasorigin.html

mattyb says:

03:26pm | 01/12/10

My personal bug bear, The use of the phrase bug bear!

Gladys says:

03:37pm | 01/12/10

I bet the Christians just did that in times when there wasn’t much paper and even fewer scribes.

Outraged says:

05:12pm | 01/12/10

Gladys, just admit you were wrong and get over it! Merry XMAS!

James1 says:

01:06pm | 01/12/10

In Iran, and indeed much of the Islamic world, it is the year 1431.  The Islamic calendar has the year Mohammed left Mecca for Medina as year one.  It always pays to check these things before making silly comments such as this.

Also, having “the year of our lord” and “AD” is silly too - because AD stands for anno domini, which means “the year of our lord” in Latin…

Steely Dan says:

01:07pm | 01/12/10

@ TCB

“Wether you like it or not, Aust. is a christian country”
Whether you like it or not, S116 of the Australian Constitution begs to differ.

“after all you live in the year of our lord 2010 A. D.”
CE, TCB.  2010 CE.  Yep, we stole the ‘0’ year from Christianity.  Just like the Christians stole the 25th of December from pagans.

Charles says:

01:42pm | 01/12/10

indeed, just forget all other religions and most importantly the pagan faitjs ripped off by christians- but then that woudl ruin a good story?

Bobster says:

01:43pm | 01/12/10

Ah yes, the year 0 A.D. That wonderful year when God decided to stop with the creative methods of killing us and started guilting us to death instead.

Bring back the true meaning of Christmas, I say. I want my mid-winter’s feast back. It was much more fun before Jesus wrecked it.

Hail Bacchus.

Wallaby says:

02:02pm | 01/12/10

Please don’t mention the year 0 A.D. That will start a whole other argument.

Remember Y2K?

Peter says:

02:08pm | 01/12/10

James1,
That may explain why the behaviour of so many Muslims around the world is like they are from the middle ages.

James1 says:

02:21pm | 01/12/10

Thanks Peter.  I had not thought of it that way before, and I got a nice little giggle out of that.

BK says:

02:50pm | 01/12/10

Is December 25 really Jesus’ birthday?

Shane From Melbourne says:

02:58pm | 01/12/10

I’m up for the Mayan calendar which apparently ends in 2012 (less book keeping) By the way I’m trying not to think of the power bill the house in the picture is going suffer…...

iansand says:

03:03pm | 01/12/10

TCB - The puzzling thing ids that when God was inspiring Dionysus Exiguous to come up with this wizard BC/AD wheeze he forgot when His son was born.  It is reasonable that a person could have a lapse of memory after half a millennium, but one loses a little confidence in the omniscience of a deity who can’t even remember how old his son is.

Feral Wombat says:

04:24am | 02/12/10

Peter and James

In Thailand the year is 2553. So I guess Buddhists must be living in the future. Hopefully it’s a tolerant future.

James1 says:

07:41am | 02/12/10

That’s awesome Feral Wombat.  I hope they have hoverboards.

Robert Smissen, rural SA, God's own country says:

08:25am | 02/12/10

BK the easy answer is, NO! ! If you sit down with your bible & work it out for yourself you’ll end up with early October. Even without that you’ll find that the shepherds aren’t out in the fields in December in Palestine, it is too cold for the sheep & it often snows then. 25th of December is the peak of Saturnalia & the fir tree, holly leaves, mistletoe, drunkeness etc are taken from the same pagan roots

Steph says:

08:58am | 02/12/10

BK -

The actual date of Jesus birth is unknown. I can’t remember the reason 25th Dec was chosen, and my hubby, who does know, is at work. It may have something to do with the census conducted the year of Jesus birth though. Maybe another Christian can enlighten you?

Steely Dan says:

09:57am | 02/12/10

@ Steph

The 25th of December was an existing pagan seasonal celebration - the church declared that date to be Jesus’ birthday as a way to sell Christianity to pagans.

And there wasn’t a Roman census in 0AD/CE.

Steph says:

01:15pm | 02/12/10

Steely Dan…. I highly, highly doubt that the Christians chose the 25th of December to spite some other pagan festival. I know you probably think they’re a bunch of mean, nasty, greedy shallow buggers but really, they aren’t. It’s too much effort and goes against what they’re preaching anyway. For having 365 days in a year (give or take what calendar you’re using), there’s bound to be more than 365 festivals of any religion or culture throughout history and inevitably, some had to fall on the same dates as others. There is a reason the 25th Dec was chosen, but for the life of me I can’t remember what it is. (I’m blaming pregnant brain).

There was a census - that’s why Joseph was returning to Bethlehem with Mary. As his betrothed she was pretty much already part of the family (a betrothal being more binding back then than it is now) and thus obliged to follow him to his hometown to register with the census.

Chris L says:

02:03pm | 02/12/10

Steph you are countering history with opinion. Even most preachers with agree that the date of Christmas was chosen to coindice with Yule, and this is no doubt why we still often refer to it as Yuletide. There was no Roman census in 0AD, this has been verified by archeology.

Steely Dan says:

03:21pm | 02/12/10

@ Steph

“I highly, highly doubt that the Christians chose the 25th of December to spite some other pagan festival.”
I don’t think that they did it to spite them at all.  They weren’t after enemies, they were after converts - linking Jesus with the solstice makes good sense. 

“...there’s bound to be more than 365 festivals of any religion or culture throughout history and inevitably, some had to fall on the same dates as others. “
Sure.  But you’ll find there’s a lot more that coincide with solstices and other naturally recurring annual events.

“There is a reason the 25th Dec was chosen, but for the life of me I can’t remember what it is.”
But you’re sure it’s not what Chris L, Robert Smissen and myself say it is?

“There was a census - that’s why Joseph was returning to Bethlehem with Mary.”
See what you did there?  You’ve assumed that the Bible is historically accurate.  There is no record of a Roman census at this time - and more critically, no reason at all why people would have to get up and travel to another town for a census!  The idea of a census is to work out how many people there are, and where they live.  This would help Rome work out what taxes to expect from each region, where to send troops etc.  Making people travel to an ancestral birthplace isn’t just mean, it’s counter-productive.

Steph says:

07:47pm | 02/12/10

Hubby just came back with the 25th being chosen by Constantine as Jesus birthday because of the pagan festival being on and since Connie had declared Christianity the new religion of Rome, placed it on the same date as the pagan one to get more converts.

So, looks like I was wrong. Sorry

Adam says:

07:57am | 04/12/10

In regards to the whole “we use BC and AD in Australia, so therefore we MUST be a Christian country!” argument:
I am a qualified historian, and those terms are NEVER used into modern discourse when we talk about dates, it is always “BCE” and CE” (meaning “Before the Common Era” and “Common Era” respectively). Granted, these usages are not widespread in society, but they very swiftly gained ground in the academic community.

marley says:

06:34pm | 04/12/10

@Adam - and would those dates just happen to coincide with BC and AD?

If so, then their acceptance in the academic or any other community is a bit of a joke, really. “Common era?”  Common to what? to whom? why that year and not oh, say the birth of Athens or the fall of the Roman Empire or the conquest of India or the discovery of America?  What is common to the world about the year dot?

Robert Smissen, rural SA, God's own country says:

08:27am | 02/12/10

My local GP is an Indian non Christian but celebrates Christmas bigtime! !

HappyCynic says:

08:42am | 02/12/10

@notSue

Sorry but is not a secular holiday, nor will it ever be a secular holiday.  It is a christian holiday.  I am not a christian so I don’t celebrate it.  I have no problem if others do though.  Aside from the very annoying (and very grumpy) Xmas shoppers and those f**ken awful carols, Xmas doesn’t really intrude too much into my life though I wish more shops would stay open on the day.  It’s pretty f**ken slack that more non-christians don’t work on the day. 

Steph says:

09:04am | 02/12/10

None of my hubbys work celebrate Christmas as they’re all Jews. I’ve had to confront the boss and tell him that everyone in his company gets every Jewish holiday off but my hubby has to work through his religious holidays? At least they’re pretty consistent, not celebrating something they don’t believe in. From what I can tell it’s the secular society that celebrate it even though it’s a religious holiday they may not agree on.

marley says:

09:25am | 02/12/10

@happycynic - not so sure that’s true.  I know lots of people who don’t think about the religious aspects at all - they just regard Christmas as a time for family gatherings, overeating and exchanging pairs of socks and bbq aprons with sexy slogans.  Sort of going back to the pagan roots of the whole thing, really. 

And if you think Christmas inconvenient, try to get a midday meal in a Muslim country in Ramadan - and that lasts for weeks!

Steely Dan says:

11:16am | 02/12/10

@ Steph

“At least they’re pretty consistent, not celebrating something they don’t believe in. From what I can tell it’s the secular society that celebrate it even though it’s a religious holiday they may not agree on.”
I don’t celebrate the birth of a deity.  I celebrate a long weekend to spend with my family.  Though it’s true that we stole some seasonal traditions that were started by pagans - like decorating trees.  Obviously Christians don’t do that sort of thing (Jeremiah 10:1-5).

Steph says:

01:24pm | 02/12/10

Steely Dan….

It sounds like they’re referring to a Christmas tree, but they could easily be referring to a totem pole, and reading further into the passage an adorned tree like we see at Christmas doesn’t really make sense. Especially as the tree isn’t a god or idol. Look at passages 8, 9, 14 and 15.

Steely Dan says:

03:31pm | 02/12/10

@ Steph

“It sounds like they’re referring to a Christmas tree, but they could easily be referring to a totem pole”
A totem pole?  This was written in the Middle East, not Northern America.

“and reading further into the passage an adorned tree like we see at Christmas doesn’t really make sense. Especially as the tree isn’t a god or idol.”
An adorned tree can certainly be an idol - and to some pagan sects, the tree might even be worshipped as a part of a pantheistic-style natural god.  Idols don’t have to be a statue or anything shaped to represent a human or an animal (eg Golden Calf).

Steph says:

04:01pm | 02/12/10

Steely Dan, take an example where an example is given. I didn’t say it WAS a totem pole, I said it could have been referring to one.

And I meant the Christmas tree we celebrate now not being an idol. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_tree - some good reading there.

Steely Dan says:

10:38pm | 02/12/10

@ steph

“I didn’t say it WAS a totem pole, I said it could have been referring to one.”
Right.  And I’m saying that it couldn’t have been referring to a totem pole.

“And I meant the Christmas tree we celebrate now not being an idol.”
As long as you celebrate it as a symbol, your god may look favourably on you.  Who knows.  It probably still bugs him that the trees get rolled out every year.

Steely Dan says:

01:42pm | 01/12/10

@ Wayne Fehlhaber

“Christmas is back for Victorian children and so it should be”
Christmas didn’t come last year?  Are you sure?

Separating overt religious celebration from state schools is common sense.  It’s not spoiling Christmas for Christians.  How many kids ran home from school crying last December because the day they spent making tree decorations in arts and crafts wasn’t religious enough?

James1 says:

03:12pm | 01/12/10

Indeed Steely Dan.  Why did you stop celebrating Christmas and Easter Wayne?  Last time I checked, there are very few children at school on Easter Sunday or Christmas day, so it must be you who denied it to them.  That’s not very kind to your children…

Wayne Fehlhaber says:

06:16pm | 01/12/10

James 1 :  Why pretend you don’t know what i have said.  ?
Our children are entitled to celebrate Christmas and Easter in state schools.  To deny the majority because of the minority is ridiculous .
Try denying a Muslim or a Seventh Day Adventist their traditional practices and see what would happen.

Steely Dan : Why do i suspect your comment to be just another attack on Christianity. ?
I could just picture you on Christmas day running around confiscating the kids Christmas gifts and shouting ” Bah Humbug ! “
Get your left leaning attitudes and political correctness out of our kids lives.

Karen says:

08:04pm | 01/12/10

The Road to Bethlehem, an amazing celebration of Christmas (free, held at Nunawading-check it out) is presented by the Seventh-day Adventist church—and has been so for many years—because they celebrate Christmas. The teacher you had must have been an anomoly, unless you had the religion wrong.

James1 says:

07:53am | 02/12/10

Entitled?  Do you really think it is that terrible if they celebrate it with you and your wife, rather than colouring in pictures of a rabbit and making paper baskets at school?  In any case, all I can go on is what you said.  And you said “my kids were denied celebrating Easter”.

The sense of entitlement in parents these days…

Steely Dan says:

11:30am | 02/12/10

@ Wayne

“I could just picture you on Christmas day running around confiscating the kids Christmas gifts and shouting ” Bah Humbug ! “
Why on earth would I intrude on people’s personal lives like that?  And I love that (incidentally non-religious) tradition!

“Get your left leaning attitudes and political correctness out of our kids lives.”
Says the man who backs enforcing religious observance on school kids. 

No child is having Christmas taken away from them.  Kids can still exchange gifts at school. They can still sing carols at school.  What I’m objecting to is promoting the explicitly religious aspects of the holiday in state schools.  Just as I would object if a state school was celebrating Ramadan.
I’ll ask again - were Victorian children upset by the lack of Christmas under a Labor Premier last year?  Quit being a drama queen, somebody wishing you a happy holiday when they could have said happy Christmas is not oppression.  Respect people’s religious position like our Constitution asks and have a happy holidays and a happy Christmas.

Dave-o says:

04:07pm | 01/12/10

Logic and religion aren’t compatible.

Blazes says:

04:53pm | 01/12/10

Respect and atheism aren’t compatible.

Ryan says:

08:34pm | 01/12/10

@Blazes: I must agree, it appears that so-called atheists would like to take some sort of logical and thus imply intelligent approach however seem hell bent on pushing their belief in nothing on everyone else, what this shows is that atheists are clearly not showing logic or intelligence. If they had clear and concise intelligence and applied some actual logic to religion, they would see that in general most religions when practiced within a family structure in a moderate and compassionate way do more for the average persons morals, association and class than any amount of pathetic ranting about logic and science. This coming from someone who is an agnostic because I couldn’t bare to be lumped in with these insufferable charmers that have taken to atheism.

Chris L says:

06:53pm | 02/12/10

I disagree with your assesment Ryan. Atheists, myself included, are not trying to “push their belief”. Indeed we are trying to escape having others’ beliefs pushed on us. Christians are getting upset because we don’t want them using public schools to promote their Jesus story, something they can happily engage in at home.

Please tell me where there is any sort of atheist belief being pushed onto people. What form does this take?

Ryan says:

09:18am | 03/12/10

@Chris L: so first you tell me atheists are pushing their belief on Christians saying “don’t want them using public schools to promote their Jesus story” then you tell me to provide me an example of where atheism is being forced onto people, you answered your question right there.
See the thing is Chris, there needs to be a balance, people should be allowed to CHOOSE what they want to believe in, evolution is already taught in school and hence the balance within religion. The general rule of thumb is teach your kids to decide for themselves and take the best from everything.

Steely Dan says:

01:00pm | 03/12/10

@ Ryan

“then you tell me to provide me an example of where atheism is being forced onto people, you answered your question right there.”
Asking Christians to respect Section 116 of the Constitution and not force Christianity on public school kids is not forcing atheism on anyone! 
“evolution is already taught in school and hence the balance within religion.”
There’s a difference Ryan, one is accepted science and one isn’t.

James1 says:

01:31pm | 01/12/10

Good question.  I think we can safely say the last one is somewhere past the line though…

notSue says:

01:41pm | 01/12/10

Obviously, the words ‘common sense” or to put it another way, tact and good judgement, should be our guiding principles, not some legislated idea of what is deemed offensive in this regard. This is our country’s tradition and we should be able to express it as we see fit, both publically and privately. It harms no-one, that’s it’s main selling point.

Like the ethics vs religous education debate, if we are unable to decide for ourselves what might offend our fellow human beings, taking into account our knowledge of them and their beliefs, we are pretty sorry excuses for modern, educated homo sapiens.

“When in Rome do as the Romans do” is not a bad principle either. That’s not to say that those who are not Christian must accept being co-erced into our traditions, but if the spirit is one of inclusiveness and love towards our neighbour, I cannot see how a secular Christmas is possibly a bad thing. All religions have feast days, days of celebration and ritual. This one has become a potential day of joy for all Aussies,( if they are lucky enough to have someone to share it with). That does not mean we abandon all PC ideas of courtesy, quite the opposite, IMO.

James1 says:

02:45pm | 01/12/10

Good points notSue.  We used to always have Christmas lunch and New Years Eve with our Iranian neighbours, and would always attend Eid al-Fitr and Nowrouz with them.

Jade M says:

03:23pm | 01/12/10

Did you honestly stop saying any of that? Everyone I know says stuff like that always, but then most people I know don’t get offended by silly words either!

MJ says:

10:08am | 02/12/10

@Macca:

Thank you, you have given me my first laugh of the day!!

mickijo says:

02:59pm | 01/12/10

The happy thing about Australia is that everyone can celebrate Christmas or not. It doesn’t matter, it is up to the FREE will of us all.There are those who draw great comfort from their religion, there are those who get nothing from it. Each to his own. That is what being Australian is all about. Long may it live.

Steph says:

09:12am | 02/12/10

I’m sweating at the amount of money I’d have to spend on presents if kids expected 5 santas to all bring them gifts!!

Robert Smissen, rural SA, God's own country says:

08:33am | 02/12/10

Krusty Klown, are you some kind of anti-Semite? ? ? ? You left out Hanukkah! ! ! LOL

DC says:

10:17am | 02/12/10

Robert, look again… he just spelt it differently

Robert Smissen, rural SA, God's own country says:

08:36am | 02/12/10

Brave/stupid woman, doesn’t she realise her sprog will be “sent to Coventry” just to feed her own ego

Wayne Fehlhaber says:

06:23pm | 01/12/10

Knickers in a Knot :  Very well said indeed.  We need to let Christmas and Easter back into our kid’s lives. There is hardly a risk in offending other religions because i’m certain that they have no intention of abandoning their own traditions and rightly so. Good to read your refreshing view.

Yo Ho Ho says:

08:51pm | 01/12/10

As an atheist, I used to work every Christmas, Easter and any other holiday I could get my hands on. Double time is a wonderful thing. I no longer get that opportunity in my current job.

Tax doesn’t take the benefits unless you’re already in the highest tax bracket. You get taxed at the regular rate - it all evens out at tax time.

If you have worked 20 of the last 25 Christmases and are moaning about it, how about you get another job, or perhaps you should ask Santa for some ambition.

Chris L says:

07:07pm | 02/12/10

I have never taken holidays over Christmas as it means more to my collegues than it does to me. I wouldn’t expect a Druid to work over Yule though, it is their holiday after all.

Robert Smissen, rural SA, God's own country says:

08:44am | 02/12/10

Thank-you,a very rational approach.

notsurprised says:

12:48pm | 02/12/10

Nice one Pallavi, have a peaceful festive season for you and your family.

Robert Smissen, rural SA, God's own country says:

08:48am | 02/12/10

WOW! ! ! ! Now that is what I call drawring a long bow.

Steph says:

09:19am | 02/12/10

I don’t know about your last statement, Ted being on Christans side and not other religions, but you put up a good post.

marley says:

12:52pm | 02/12/10

I don’t see the argument at all.  Anyone who lives in Australia knows (or should know) that Christmas is a part of the social tradition of this country, irrespective of its religious meaning.  Why would a Muslim, or the follower of any other religion, regard Ted’s statements as anything other than a bow in the direction of acknowledging well-established practice? 

And if we’re going to talk about “bright and colorful and fun” celebrations, give me the great Hindu festivals like Diwali and Dussehra any time, with their bright lights and color, their feasts, sweets, gifts and play acting.  Very attractive and entrancing to a child, I would have thought.  And a lot more interesting than Easter.

Feral Wombat says:

04:47pm | 02/12/10

Robert

Your comments above show that you are exactly the type of person that this announcement was designed to appeal to (except that you don’t live in Victoria).

“I’m a white, male Christian. Somebody help me, I’m under threat!”

Don’t worry, Super Ted is here to stand up for you.

Steph

Thanks! Just trying to get people to consider an outsider’s view.

Marley

It’s not a “Battle of the Religions.” But if it was (with apologies to Hindus) I’d back Santa over Diwali any day.

“Why would a Muslim, or the follower of any other religion, regard Ted’s statements as anything other than a bow in the direction of acknowledging well-established practice?”

The “argument” is that if a politician comes out so quickly and keenly to support one particular section of the population, then he is by inference not supporting, or supporting less, other sections of the population. This is especially true if he panders to a mistaken belief that the people he is supporting are under some sort of threat from those that he is not.

Have you ever lived somewhere where you were in a minority because of your race or religion? Have you ever been part of a minority group that is commonly demonised by opportunistic politicians who want to portray themselves as defenders of God, the religion of the majority and all that is right?

I have. I guess I just wanted to get the first salvo off against Big Ted because I’ve seen it all before. I really believe that we should be better than that.

marley says:

06:48pm | 02/12/10

@FeralWombat - have I ever lived somewhere where I was in a minority because of my race or religion?  Well, yes.  Why do you think I know about Diwali and Dussehra?  But India is, by and large, a relaxed place, prepared to accommodate other religions (though there are obvious recent historic exceptions to that). And it is in that vein that I see no problem with Ted’s willingness to say that kids should get to celebrate Christmas if they want to.  India doesn’t have a problem with it, why should Australia?

Ted’s not forcing kids who belong to other faiths to celebrate, but neither is he denying that the majority of Australians have a social, if not religious, affinity with the celebration of Christmas.  Why should that be ignored or tossed out?  It’s part of our heritage. And I see nothing wrong with celebrating it, any more than I see anything wrong with celebrating Diwali in New Delhi, or Eid in Pakistan.

It is not progress to deny our own heritage.  By all means, allow our citizens to celebrate Diwali and Eid and Hannukah and whatever other religious or non-religious festivals may be of importance.  And don’t impose Christmas on anyone.  But to pretend that Christmas is not important to many Australians, in order not to offend the sensibilities of those of a different heritage, is in my view simply silly.  And I strongly suspect that those with different religious views would entirely agree.

Feral Wombat says:

11:31am | 03/12/10

Marley

You seem to have completely misread both of my posts. Or perhaps not. Like Big Ted, you want to take the position that anyone who is not in complete agreement with you must be attacking Christmas.

“... I see no problem with Ted’s willingness to say that kids should get to celebrate Christmas if they want to. India doesn’t have a problem with it, why should Australia?”

I’ll try again, Marley. The problem is that Ted (and you) are pretending that little kiddies Christmasses are being stolen so that you can portray yourselves as the defenders of Christmas. Tell me, just who is trying to take Christmas away from the kids?

“And I see nothing wrong with celebrating it…”

Seriously, you took my post as an argument that we shouldn’t celebrate Christmas?

“It is not progress to deny our own heritage… But to pretend that Christmas is not important to many Australians, in order not to offend the sensibilities of those of a different heritage, is in my view simply silly.”

Once again you have ignored the points made in both my posts, implied that I am an enemy of Christmas, and then set yourself up as the defender of Christmas with some fine motherhood statements.

That kind of approach to this debate is what I was criticising in both my posts.

marley says:

04:26pm | 03/12/10

@FeralWombat - sorry, I think you’re right - I’m not getting exactly what your point is (but I don’t think you’re getting my point either).

If I understand you, you are concerned that non-Christians are sensitive to proselytizing by Christians and that Christmas is a holiday which might be seen as seducing impressionable youngsters with its colours and presents.  You are concerned too that what Ted is saying, and what I am saying as well, is code for “Christmas is being stolen and we must protect it.”  And that therefore, non-Christians will regard his statements as being not just an affirmation of Christmas but an exclusion of other religions.  Have I got that more or less right?

What I’m saying is, I think you’re making too big a thing of this.  I know that Muslims and Hindus (the two religious groups I’m somewhat familiar with) do worry about proselytizing, but I seriously doubt that either faith would regard the celebration of Christmas in that light.  Muslims, after all, regard Jesus as a prophet, and Hindus have festivals far more colourful and engaging than Christmas. 

I can’t speak for Ted, of course, but I have certainly never suggested that Christmas is being stolen from little kiddies, or that I need to defend it.  And in fact that’s not what I’m doing.  What I’m defending is the right of a politician, or anyone else, to be able to say, go enjoy Christmas - its part of our heritage.  I just don’t see that as putting oneself on one side of a religious or cultural divide.  I see it as a recognition that a lot of people are going to celebrate Christmas as Christmas, not as the “holiday season” and that they shouldn’t worry that it might be offensive to non-Christians, because it isn’t.

In other words, I think I understand what you’re saying, I just disagree with the weight you’re putting on it.

Feral Wombat says:

07:18pm | 03/12/10

Marley

At least now we are getting close to a discussion of the issues that I raised. You seem to partly understand what I was saying, so I’ll help you out with the bits that you have clearly misunderstood.

I have absolutely no concern for Christians, Muslims or anyone else who is concerned about proselytising. In fact, people who would appoint themselves as defenders of the religion of the majority were the primary target of my posts (along with politicians who seek to benefit by pandering to people with unjustified fears). That part of my first post was simply intended to show that the perception of minority religions as a threat is an international phenomenon, unjustified everywhere that I have seen it.

The clueless bloke with the Christmas presents - that was me.

The onlookers who assumed that I was trying to destroy their religion - my point was that there are scared and stupid people who jump to ridiculous conclusions in every country, especially on issues of religion. I try to be tolerant of this when I am in Third World slums. I find it much more difficult to be understanding when Australians are involved. By pointing out how fearful some others are of “foreign” religions, I was hoping to get people to consider the stupidity of their own fears.

The “bright and colourful and fun Christian celebrations” ... Given the international dominance of western, Christian culture, at least the fears of some people in other countries that their culture and religion are under threat are understandable. But it seems to me to be pathetic for Australian Christians to take this position (of being under threat), especially without offering any facts to back it up.

The story about my friend who was a “religious bigot” was to show that we already have a great society, one to be proud of. To a large degree that is because most of us reject fear-mongering based on lies.

I even managed to get in the fact that I have witnessed this sort of pandering to unjustified fears of members of the majority religion - committed by Muslim politicians using Christians as the perceived threat.

I admit that the post was not simple and straightforward. I was telling a story, attempting to get people to consider viewpoints other than the most obvious.

I’m pretty sure that I understand your posts. You can see no ulterior motive in a newly elected politician coming out quickly to defend the religion of the majority against a perceived (but non-existent) threat. I understand your point of view, I just think that it is extremely naive.

And when you write something like “And I see nothing wrong with celebrating it…” as part of a structured argument against my post, surely you are making yourself the “Defender of Christmas.” Your second post is full of such lines. I would be interested to know exactly who you think does see something wrong with celebrating Christmas.

marley says:

07:21pm | 04/12/10

@Feralwombat:  I guess my first cavil would be with the statement “given the international dominance of western, Christian culture, at least the fears of some people in other countries that their culture and religion are under threat are understandable.”

I’ve lived in quite a few countries in which western, Christian culture is not dominant, nor likely to be anytime soon.  And a good part of the Muslim world (Islam is of course a proselytizing religion) believes that theirs will be the dominant religion in the future.  They’re not in the least worried about a fading Christianity.  So, with respect,  I disagree with your analysis.  No one is worried about a dominant Christian culture - maybe they’re worried about western culture - Big Macs and bikinis and womens’ rights - but not about Christianity.

And my take on the political aspect is not that Baillieu is defending a Christian majority from Muslim minorities - hell, no, I’ve never heard a Muslim or a Hindu or a Buddhist complaining about Christian observances here.  My point is that Baillieu is, I think, defending the celebration of Christmas from the politically correct brigade that fear the sight of a Christmas tree or nativity scene will be culturally divisive or offensive.

It won’t be.  And that’s my point. 

Bottom line - I do understand what you’re saying, I just disagree with your take on things.  And, for the last time, I’m not a defender of Christianity, but I am a defender of the freedom of religion, including Christianity.

Feral Wombat says:

06:18am | 05/12/10

Marley

Once again you choose to take an explanation of a minor part of my post (the international dominance of western, Christian culture), misinterpret it, treat your interpretation as if that was the point that I was making and then make a half-baked argument against it. I won’t bother trying to explain again as your ability to misinterpret is simply amazing.

“...is not that Baillieu is defending a Christian majority from Muslim minorities…”

As I’ve already said, that’s a perfectly valid take on the issue. You obviously don’t understand the concept of dog-whistling (or don’t believe that it exists) and that’s fine.

And I see that you have further refined your position as Defender of Christmas and are no longer implying that I (or anyone else) pose a threat to Christmas. Now you are arguing against “the PC brigade”, which doesn’t really have anything to do with my post. That’s good work. Your new position is actually quite sensible.

notSue says:

12:07am | 08/12/10

@ Feral Wombat and marley Having read your exchange,, I think, as you originally stated, marley, the last two lines of FW’s post are the most significant, viz: “Ted wants Christians who fear other religions to know that he is on their side. And what those of other faiths hear, of course, is that he is not on theirs”. I agree entirely with the first sentence of this proposition, it is a timely reminder that politicians never do anything without an agenda, subliminally or not. The message received by Christans is certainly that Teddy is a good bloke for standing up for our traditions. The subtext escaped me until I read FW’s post. Congrats, very astute.

However, it is the second sentence which I feel needs defining.“And what those of other faiths hear, of course, is that he is not on theirs”.This is very definitely a possible Muslim reaction, as you rightly point out, FW, since Islam is vigourously anti-proslytisation to the point of condemning to death anyone who dares to try to convert one of their number. However, I doubt very greatly that Buddhists or Hindus, (as demonstrated by Pallavi, incredibly intrinsically religions, as you say,) hear the same message. As for other minorities, I doubt they would either.. but you never know.

Thanks for the opportunity to analyse this move a tad more deeply.

notSue says:

08:00am | 08/12/10

Buddhism and Hhinduism are “incredibly intrinsically *inclusive*, religions”, is what I meant to say. - (nice litle piece of alliteration there!) hah!

Pete the Parrot says:

04:25pm | 02/12/10

“who existence is in some historical doubt”

Just because you don’t follow Him doesn’t mean you have to discount His obvious and proven historical presence.

I am a Catholic and, whilst I celebrate Jesus’ birthday on the 25th December, I am not that naive to think that it is his actual birthday. Those that do are either between the ages of 0 and 18, deluded, Evangelical or Tony Abbott.

And apologies for hijacking your pagan festival date back in the day - all the other good ones were already taken.

Jon says:

06:40pm | 02/12/10

Pete the Parrot@ Sorry, but from my reading there isn’t a shred of evidence that Jesus ever existed at all, while there is a mountain of evidence that Jesus and Christianity was a reconstruction of Mithras, Dionysus, Attis, Osiris, and Orpheus myths.  No records of Jesus from the Romans at that time, who were very good historians. Know one who wrote about him ever met him. On the plus side and a very short passage “Testimonium Flavianum” a statement by Flavius Josephus a Roman Jew, who’s much quoted text is used as proof of Jesus. However it has been questioned by historians who suggest that it is the result of alterations to the original text by zealous Christians.

Steely Dan says:

10:40pm | 02/12/10

@ Pete the Parrot

As much as I’m convinced there was a Jesus (not for the same reasons as you I’ll bet), his existence is not a matter of historical fact. 

(Cue people citing Josephus etc.)

Steph says:

01:31pm | 02/12/10

Mcwong, I await the day they admit believing in that stuff is religious, and they have atheism listed as an official religion (and one of the biggest, I’d say - they don’t just focus on one God, they take all of them and deny the whole lot exist!). Then, finally, nothing Atheistic can be taught in schools as religion shouldn’t have an influence in schooling.

Steely Dan says:

10:03am | 03/12/10

@ Steph

“I await the day they admit believing in that stuff is religious”
Who said all holidays or themed days of recognition have to be religious?  Is ANZAC Day a religious holiday?  What about Mothers Day?
And you think science is a religion?  Yikes.

“and they have atheism listed as an official religion”
Will they declare bald to be a hair colour?

Steph says:

07:01pm | 03/12/10

While we have not discussed it, I think you know some people say that Athiesm is a religion because it has a stance on God (ie He doesn’t exist) and a theological viewpoint to match it.

I don’t think I said anything about religious holidays. Looking at my post, I honestly can’t see where you read that.  And no, I don’t think science is a religion - religion at least claims what they believe to be true for a long period of time (years and years and more years… you get the picture) whereas science changes every day. Yes, they (scientists) keep coming up with new information, but until they do, what is currently seen as the truth (scientifically) is shouted in our ear as practically gospel.

And also, I like science. I think science should be studied more. I don’t think it’s fictional, or a myth, or stupid, or a waste of time. The only time I don’t agree with science is when it doesn’t agree with my religion. But the Big Bang and Evolution are as mythological as Zeus - Thought up by some enlightened fellow(s) in the last couple of centuries to which there has been no evidence of actually being able to back up the claim. Bit like Mormonism, or Scientology. Even Darwin himself was sceptical of his Theory of Evolution. Really, how am I stupid or blind for following a religion that’s been out for thousands of years but you’re enlightened for following a theory written by a chap in the 19th century?