The Occupy movement has certainly been grabbing the headlines over the last week.

Free transport. Woohoo! Photo: The Daily Telegraph

Apart from the protests that simultaneously occurred in capital cities around Australia, there was also the controversial police evictions of both the Melbourne and Sydney sites.

In the latest news, it was reported that there are concerns that Occupy Melbourne will be targeting a protest towards the Queen when she visits the city later today.

Unsurprisingly, there have been many in the media who have been having a field day with the Occupy Movement. Among the first was Sophie Mirabella writing for The Punch a few weeks ago whose biggest problem with the protestors seemed to be that they where ‘politically adolescent’.

Mirabella then reached for the conservative playbook and threw a litany of accusations at the protestors: they want free education, they need to get a real job, they support the carbon tax, are puppets of Bob Brown and the Greens and so on. If she had only managed to talk about ‘stopping the boats’ and poker machine reform, then she would have completed the clean sweep.

The usually erudite David Penberthy essentially accused them of not understanding economics by pointing to Greece and saying, see, this is what lazy socialism gets you.  What was not mentioned was the role of the financial industry and speculation in fuelling this crisis or Greece’s excessive military spending. 

The never erudite Gerard Henderson informed his readership that these people were all getting government handouts.  Henderson used his column to attack the soft-bellied former Victorian Police Commissioner Christine Nixon and, of course, the Greens.

One of the areas that almost all critics have focussed on has been that the protestors have no clear agenda. While the same criticism can be levelled at the current Abbott Opposition, critics have failed to either understand what the protesters are saying or address the issues that are being raised: which are growing levels of inequality, profits ahead of human needs and the rising level of influence of corporations over democratic governments.

Are these fantasy concerns or is something real happening? Let me address each of these in turn.

Writing for The Australian earlier this week, Mike Steketee quoted some concerning Australian Bureau of Statistics figures showing that the top 20 per cent of Australian households earned on average 11 times more income than those in the bottom 20 – up from 8.5 percent in 2003-04. This comes to $3,943 a week compared to $360. Even after adjusting these figures for family size, taxes and benefits, the gap still widens (though less at a rate from 4.8 to 5.4 percent).

The distribution of wealth tells an even more concerning story: the top 20 percent of households have 70 times more net wealth as bottom 20 percent (again we are talking 2009-10 figures). This comes to an average of $2.2 million per household compared to $31,829.

We can drill down further. Queensland, one of the resource states flying high before the floods shows a large increase in people living under stress. The Queensland Council of Social Services found a 73 per cent increase in the number of people looking for financial assistance, unemployment rates for young people at 12 per cent and rising cost of living created by the mining boom that it is creating stress.

I could go on but I suggest a close reading of the ABS figures tells us what we all suspect: Australia is becoming a more inequitable place and this has nothing to do with Bob Brown or the price on carbon.

The second area of concern raised by the Occupy protestors is the fact that profits are placed ahead of human wellbeing. We do not have to look far to see the examples of this: The sports wear industry has become synonymous with ‘sweat shop’; clubs throughout Australia supported by state governments defending poker machine profits despite the overwhelming evidence of the social harms; the removal profitable manufacturing industries to places where labour is cheaper (and conditions much worse); and, environmental devastation that has ruined livelihoods.

Rather than naming and shaming any single corporation, the protestors are right in arguing that this is a systemic issue. Board members and managers are required by law to meet their fiduciary responsibilities with little or no account for the wellbeing of communities, future generations or fragile environments.

If we truly want a sustainable and fairer society, then this must change.

The third area is the rise of corporate power. In his recent book, Too Much Luck, Australian journalist Phil Cleary describes in detail the power of the mining lobby in Australia. Cleary articulates the way the well-funded mining industry brought down Kevin Rudd, a democratically elected leader, because of their resistance to the super-profits mining tax.

Within a week of reaching a compromise with Julia Gillard, Rio Tinto’s American chief executive, Tom Albanese, told mining executives in London that the Australian experience should act as a warning to other governments around the world. 

The mining industry provides only one example. We could easily turn to the strength of the pharmaceutical industry, media empires, the pubs and clubs lobby groups and so on.

When I was an analyst in the finance industry, the concept of too big to fail was often discussed when evaluating the balance sheet of banks. Today, with the world economy almost brought down by the excesses and hubris of Lehman Brothers and Merrill Lynch, the protesters are right to ask if certain corporations are too big to exist.

It is easy to hurl cheap insults at the Occupy crowd. They have been dismissed as naive, socialists, ignorant, middle-class kids who have it too good, unemployed bludgers and so on. It is also easy to shove a microphone in front of someone and pick apart his or her words.

None of these address the real concerns of the protestors.

The Occupy Movement may not have a catchy slogan like “save the whale”. What they have done, however, is identify a sense of unease that the economic system is letting down a majority of the world’s population: and the evidence is there to support them.

330 comments

Show oldest | newest first

    • Erick says:

      06:17am | 26/10/11

      “Growing levels of inequality” can be a deceptive concept. The absolute level of wealth is more important than its distribution.

      The poorest Australian is vastly wealthier than the average Somalian. A society where income ranges from $10,000 to $10,000,000 is preferable to one in which income ranges from $10 to $100.

      The capitalist system produces inequality of distribution as a byproduct of the enormous absolute wealth it generates. While current inequalities may be greater than they ought to be in developed nations, they still mark a society where everyone is better off than they would be in the absence of a free-ish market.

      On a lighter note, it’s not true that the Occupiers have no policies. They have very real policies on the issue of drumming.

    • Mahhrat says:

      07:33am | 26/10/11

      @Erick, while it might be a “first world problem”, it is still a problem.  It still exists, and it still needs to be addressed.

      I’ve been pondering various ways of doing so.  One of those ways is a little Hubbardish and definitely needs some work, but what about a vast limiting in the methods of advertisement?

      The reason we have sweat shops is a race to the bottom line.  We’re told we deserve things we can’t afford, and so industries spring up to provide ever cheaper things so we can.

    • Damian Parkhill says:

      07:46am | 26/10/11

      @Erick

      “The poorest Australian is vastly wealthier than the average Somalian. A society where income ranges from $10,000 to $10,000,000 is preferable to one in which income ranges from $10 to $100.”

      I’m not sure using a country run by Muslim extremists, which has been exploited, ignored and become extremely over-populated as a example of how things should be really works - maybe as a “could be worse” but not really as a excuse to stop protests because “hey we’re not dieing of starvation yet”.

      “The capitalist system produces inequality of distribution as a byproduct of the enormous absolute wealth it generates. While current inequalities may be greater than they ought to be in developed nations, they still mark a society where everyone is better off than they would be in the absence of a free-ish market.”

      While this is true, there is also the proven fact that economies will go through periods of chaos and wealth redistribution (e.g WW2 and the great depression). I personally wonder if these protests could become another balancing act, after all - in order to generate “wealth” one must have people “consumers” with the money to buy products. Also unless I’m mistaken, a part of free capitalism is “trickle down” which is the process of business rewarding staff for continued productivity in the form of increased wages, kickbacks and bonuses…...so perhaps business shouldn’t be so ready to protest each minimum wage increase?

      Anyway its hard to say anything that hasn’t already been said in the last few topics, so I’ll drop in a excellent comment about the protests and the causes that I came across in another forum….

      “Just a reminder about the real cause of the financial crisis:

      Devastating Deregulation of financial and banking systems facilitated by “campaign contributions” (AKA Bribes/pay offs) to politicians, presidents Etc.

      Disastrous decision to allow private banks to create money through Fractional reserve banking allowing reckless and money creating on the scale of 33 x the Banks depository flooding the world with debt.

      Trillions in Derivative gambling and speculation ridiculously leveraging the markets and indexes making them unstable. The amount of derivatives still present in the system are estimated at 100 x the world GDP!! (time bomb waiting to explode)

      Tax avoidance by banks and corporations to the tune of 10’s if not 100’s of billions

      Government Bail outs undermining the entire principle of true free market capitalism, causing insane moral hazard and risk taking as all risks and private bank losses are passed onto the innocent tax payer.

      Insane Financial sector Bonuses totaling £15-20 billion per year causing reckless behavior and massive risk taking.

      Lending to people who would never be able to pay back loans(subprime lending) The (responsibility has to fall with the lenders for being so stupid and irresponsible)

      100% proven Market and index manipulation in the Silver and Gold markets by massively naked short selling silver and gold Exchange traded fund ETF’s especially.

      Banks loading up countries with fraudulent debt by selling them toxic (CDS’s CDO’s) and then hiding this debt to get them membership into the EU where they would not survive amongst much larger economies which was a major catalyst which led to the implosion of the Euro zone so the Troika (IMF, ECB, EU) can move in and then asset strip all the genuine valuable services from these countries.

      Subprime mortgages and predatory lending time bombs -causing 1000’s of foreclosures on innocent American people especially.

      Credit debt Obligations rated AAA when they should have been rated junk Credit default swaps also majorly leveraging the financial systems.

      Global elite Fighting illegal undemocratic wars with no vote for the people of the countries involved - Spending billions on mass genocide

      Corrupt rating agencies, no accountability ,no police investigations, no Jurisdiction. Corrupt politicians”

    • Tina says:

      08:02am | 26/10/11

      @ Mahhrat

      We certainly do have a funny understand of basic needs. I know I personally sometimes have a whinge about what I earn, but then I have a look at my lifestyle and wardrobe and “gadgets” and know I could easily put more money aside.

    • Chris_D says:

      08:03am | 26/10/11

      @Mahrat, I do agree that advertising is a great scourge, but people need to take some responsibility and show some restraint.

    • Mark G says:

      08:08am | 26/10/11

      Mahhrat,

      Like most of the solutions it sounds great in theory but here is a question for you. Who do you limit from advertising? What advertising do you limit? This would just make the advertising that you don’t limit more aggressive. It will probably also lock out smaller competitors and increase the chance of monopolies creating a bigger problem.

      Saying that advertising is the problem is like saying that ‘the wheels not going around’ is the problem when a car will not start.

    • stephen says:

      08:25am | 26/10/11

      You haven’t been looking at movements.
      The Somalians have been getting nought to a hundred dollars a week for a hundred years, whilst aussie salaries are getting proportionately higher the higher the the wage rate is, (and this is not only due to percentage wage-rises) and they are rising at a rate which is at the expense of new jobs and capital growth.
      Inequality of distribution is a choice, not of the market-place, but from those who choose to unequally distribute.

    • Budz says:

      08:43am | 26/10/11

      @Mahrat: What’s important is that people realise that advertisers will always be trying to create a need for their product or service, which isn’t always there.
      If you base your ‘quality of life’ purely on those things that can be bought and not the things that are experienced I think you are going down a slippery slope. Also it frustrates me that everyone is trying to keep up with the Jones’, because in the end that is why their financial situation is so stressful. I see it everyday.

    • John A Neve says:

      08:54am | 26/10/11

      It is good to see some people are waking up to the failure of our current system However, unlike Erick, I don’t believe “The absolute level of wealth is more important than it’s distribution”! Although I am equally sure the “top 20% of households agree with him.
      The old adage that a country is only as rich as it’s poorest person, hold good for me.

    • Tubesteak says:

      08:58am | 26/10/11

      Damian Parkhill
      Not sure where you got that quote from but it’s not the causes of the GFC.

      The cause is the US government over-stimulating the property market and forcing banks to lend to people who couldn’t afford the loans and then not regulating the market.

      To blame this on corporate donations is sheer stupidity.

    • Erick says:

      09:04am | 26/10/11

      @Damian Parkhill - “Lending to people who would never be able to pay back loans(subprime lending) The (responsibility has to fall with the lenders for being so stupid and irresponsible)”

      One correction. The responsibility for subprime lending falls squarely on the shoulders of legislators and race hustlers.

      Congressmen and Senators, mostly Democrats, passed laws that made it compulsory to lend money to people who couldn’t afford to pay it back. This was pushed by the race lobby, because many of those borrowers were black.

      President Bush tried to fix this as early as 2002, but he didn’t have the numbers. And so the trigger for the GFC was set.

      You’ve also selectively left out all the socialist policies that contributed to the GFC - such as government spending way in excess of income. I’m sure that’s just an oversight.

    • Mahhrat says:

      09:12am | 26/10/11

      @Chris D, I agree, but your argument presumes that people have the faculties necessary to do so.

      They are taught, from the very youngest of ages, that restraint in consumer ideals is unecessary, if not downright bad for you.

      To say it’s the parents’ responsibilities is also fine in theory, but denudes that the pervasion of modern media advertising is too much for any “individual” to overcome.

      I am against my daughter going to the local show.  She was dead set for it, so complied with behaviour I would love to see from her - responsibilty, saving resources, working harder to earn said resources - because she really wanted to go to the show.

      Do I not reward those behaviours?  She met her responsibilities and now demands her “choice”.  I haven’t taken her since she was about 5, and have panned the virtues of it ever since.  Short of actually forbidding she go, what would you have me do?

      I know it is a waste of money, and have told her so.  She knows it is a waste of money, yet still wants to; “It’s my money to waste, Daddy”.  That is undeniably true.

      Since I didn’t encourage it, and her mum didn’t, nor any other members of her family, then something I cannot possibly control did - modern media and it’s ability to influence peer groups and certain demographics.

      She doesn’t overly use the ‘net, she doesn’t watch too much television.  She’s an otherwise normal, sensible kid in this weird as world.  I simply cannot compete with all that pressure, all those manipulations, from every single company on the planet, all vying for her attention.  I am but one voice.

      Hence, I need help.  Invidiaul responsibility is fine, so long as we remembers companies are also legally individuals.

    • Erick says:

      09:14am | 26/10/11

      @John A Neve - “a country is only as rich as it’s poorest person”

      That’s precisely the point I was making.

      Australia’s poorest person is far richer than most people in the world.

    • John says:

      09:16am | 26/10/11

      The difference is that is that Somalians don’t work, explains why they are poor, we work but still just scrap by. There is national looting and individual looting going on. The International Bankers need to be expelled from every country that exists on this planet and they should be given no refuge. They are source of all the world problems, wars, multiculturalism, corruption, immigration, terrorism, crime, poverty and death, they also want to rule over the world and MONEY is their way to keep people in check via corrupted, they want to create hell on earth here, they are demonic agents. Don’t expect international bankers to loot Somalia, as there is nothing to loot. They target westerns because we work and create wealth.

    • andye says:

      09:17am | 26/10/11

      @Erick - So… we are wealthier than Somalia, therefore why bother doing anything? Brilliant.

    • Porter says:

      09:21am | 26/10/11

      @Damian Parkhill
      Most to all of your points don’t really apply to Australia.

    • Richard says:

      09:22am | 26/10/11

      Inequality (of outcome) is a good thing. Some people earn more income because what they contribute to society is more valuable. If they weren’t remunerated accordingly, the world would be unjust.

      Equality of opportunity is important, every needs to have the chance to succeed in life. But then, let the chips fall where they may. It would not be right, and as history shows, it would not be productive, to let everyone receive equal renumeration regardless of the value of their contribution to society.

      And the only fair way to judge the value of each contribution impartially is through the inherent price mechanisms of the free market. Sorry if this bursts your bubble James, but how has what I’ve said not been reasonable?

    • andye says:

      09:39am | 26/10/11

      @ Tubesteak - The very regulations that you blame the GFC on (because then it can be blamed on Clinton) were holding back the lenders covered by them towards the end of the rush. The unregulated lenders were doing far more than the ones you say were forced to lend.

      Why? Because there was a huge amount of money to be made speculating on packaged loans. Loans which were lumped together, good and bad and rated incorrectly. This bubble eventually popped and we had the GFC.

      Do you really think bad home loans brought down the world financial system? It was a lot more complicated than that. In 2007, the US mortgage market was $7.1 Trillion. The Entire USA stockmarket was $22 trillion. The Credit Default Swap market at the time was $45 trillion, twice the size of the US stockmarket.

      The complexity and size of this market dwarfed what you say is the true cause.

    • Adam Diver says:

      09:50am | 26/10/11

      “Somalians don’t work, explains why they are poor, we work but still just scrap by”

      In one sentence you made a comparison that you go on to ignore a couple of words later. How you can compare to the plight of Somalians, and then pretend that you just “scrape by” in a country with such a generous welfare net?

      Do you put any thought into what you post, or do you post on impulse?

    • Tubesteak says:

      10:01am | 26/10/11

      Andye
      Wrong. A bubble in one asset class will bring all others down when it pops. This is because an economy, like any other ecosystem, is an inter-related organism.
      An over-inflated bubble will have a bigger pop than anything else.

    • Peter says:

      10:16am | 26/10/11

      @Richard, the problem is that your theory is an extremely limited view of reality.  You have dismissed factors such as inherent advantage that totally scew the results. For example, if you took a cross section of the top 20% of earners and the wealthy in this country you would find an obvious trend: the majority of them have come from relatively “privileged” backgrounds.  For eg. they have a good education, their parents have money, a stable family and upbringing.  They were able to get a leg up at key times in their lives.  I can tell you from personal experience, the vast majority of people working at the top law firms of this country, for example, have gone to private schools. 

      The truth is that the system which you describe produces an extremely unfair society if left to it’s own devices.  We have to manipulate it to get the results we want, which is a healthy combination of personal independance and freedom married with social responsibility, in my view.  The protestors are reminding us of the importance of the later component, that is all.

    • andye says:

      10:32am | 26/10/11

      @Tubesteak - Correct. I am glad you agree that the massive bubble in CDS was the cause of the GFC.

    • PsychoHyena says:

      10:36am | 26/10/11

      So Erick, it sounds like you are in full support of CEOs firing 1000s of workers because the cost is unsustainable and then issuing themselves a pay increase that is greater in value than the cost of keeping those workers employed. Some even award themselves multi-million/billion increases while kicking up a storm over increasing the minimum wage for their workers.

      Let’s also look at the fact that the tax system favours the wealthy through incentives that only the wealthy can claim because they are the only ones with the disposable income to meet the requirements.

      When you have the wealthy paying less tax (by percentage) than the lower income workers you are looking at a system that needs a makeover.

    • John A Neve says:

      10:40am | 26/10/11

      Erick @ 0914,
      I believe most of us accept that the world is not a level playing field. Maybe you are the acception?
      So to compare us to so called third world countries, is to distort the truth, but then you know that don’t you?
      The divide in this country is greater than at any other time in our history and is sadly getting worse.
      To repeat what I said the other day, the concept of a “fair go” in this country is long gone, Democratic Capitalism has failed us.

    • John Smythe says:

      10:45am | 26/10/11

      @Peter you make me laugh.

      Seriously. If you actually understood what Richard was saying and got our of your wealth envy, you would understand that EVERYONE HAS THE SAME OPPORTUNITY, irrespective of starting place (which is what you seem to be bitching about).

      FFS, you wealth envy people are just plain lazy and are whinging about not reaping someone else’s rewards. You want the reward YOU do the work FFS.

      Pathetic really. Australia abounds in opportunity, and THAT is what the current system is providing. The imbalance inherent within is NOT the distribution of wealth (aka rewards), the unbalance of distribution is between the people of this society…those prepared to get off their arse and give it a shot, are far outnumbered by the self-proclaimed have-nots, who simply don’t have for not wanting to try!

    • James says:

      10:48am | 26/10/11

      @Erick

      You’ve also selectively left out all the socialist policies that contributed to the GFC - such as government spending way in excess of income. I’m sure that’s just an oversight.

      Bush was a socialist?

    • Charity Box says:

      11:24am | 26/10/11

      @Mahhrat

      What ever happened to the second world?

    • Tchom says:

      11:35am | 26/10/11

      “The poorest Australian is vastly wealthier than the average Somalian. A society where income ranges from $10,000 to $10,000,000 is preferable to one in which income ranges from $10 to $100.”

      Right,  but the gap between the wealthiest and poorest is increasing. At which point do we consider it a problem? When it ranges from $1,000 to $100,000,000? $100 to $1 billion? Should we wait until Australia’s economy ACTUALLY collapses and we have people homeless and jobless before we do something? America is an example of why this shouldn’t be left unchecked. While I’m not sure that the Occupy Australia movement will create a dramatic shift in public perception (there are a lot of photos of people with hemp trousers and beaded hair coming out of the protests) I don’t think they can be accused of having an illegitimate causes. They probably should have called it something other than ‘Occupy Australia’ seeing as their goals are so different to the original American movement.

    • LC says:

      11:48am | 26/10/11

      Someone call the men in white coats for poor ol’ John over there before he harms himself or someone else…

    • Sindy says:

      12:28pm | 26/10/11

      My boss’ salary is half a million a year in base and bonuses. He pays 20% tax because he has investments which are “making losses”. I know he has a few houses that are mortgaged, where his family members live without paying rent. These houses have been steadily increasing in price, probably enough to cover the interest payments on the mortgages. Few years down the track, he can sell the houses, covering all his interest expenses he incurred, having been paying 20% tax all those years on his half a mil a year income.

      And it’s fair, isn’t it, because he can afford an accountant who knows the loopholes?

    • John Smythe says:

      12:42pm | 26/10/11

      Sindy, it’s fair because you can do the same things as he is. You just can’t afford it maybe?

      People are focussing too much on “wealth” and forgetting where the true wealth is, and that is wealth of opportunity in this country. If your gripe is about having the smarts on how to get through “loopholes” then go to a library and educate yourself!

    • Tubesteak says:

      01:05pm | 26/10/11

      Andye
      That’s not what I said. The bubble was in housing prices and housing generally which was caused by specific intention of the US government in flooding the market with cheap money and forcing banks to adopt inefficient lending practices under the Community Reinvestment Act

      Tchom
      It only becomes a problem when we no longer have equality of opportunity. Equality of outcome is ridiculous and should never be a goal of any society.

      Sindy
      Your boss is using negative gearing not loopholes. When he sells the houses he will pay CGT on any gain. Again, no loopholes.
      An effective tax rate of 20% means that he has lost a lot of money and has paid to do so.

    • Peter says:

      01:07pm | 26/10/11

      @John Smythe - no “wealth envy” here, mate.  I am actually one of the people I’m referring to.  So, no, I’m not bitching and, yes, I do understand what Richard was writing, all to well.  Perhaps you don’t understand me, which is not surprising given your willingness to assume so much about people from a single comment.
      As for your this: “... EVERYONE HAS THE SAME OPPORTUNITY, irrespective of starting place ...”.  You know that is BS as does everyone reading it.  What a laughable statement.  Using upper case doesn’t make it more true.  So, let’s leave fantasy land and acknowledge that the quality of opportunity is highly dependant on a great number of external factors of which one has no control over, or responsibility for, and which can most certainly shape the course of one’s life.  So it is a fact that people who are born into poverty are more likely to stay in poverty and that people born into wealth are more likely to be wealthy.  I suppose the poor deserve their poverty, is that what you’re saying?

    • Richard says:

      01:15pm | 26/10/11

      @ Sindy, clearly the arcane tax system should be simplified. Scrap negative gearing, set up a flat tax rate of 25% of all income over a tax free threshold of $25K, and implement a small financial debits tax and a small carbon consumption tax. These reforms would reduce the opportunity for tricky accountancy and set up Australia for strong economic growth into the next 40 years.

      @ TChom, the gap between rich and poor is totally irrelevant. As long as there is a welfare safety need to prevent people from starving on the streets, and as long as there is equal opportunity for everyone (no matter what there background) to succeed if they take the time to get a good education and put in all the hard work that is necessary, then any complaints about some people earning “excessive” income is just jealousy. They’re not doing you any harm, its very ugly to wish them less success just because they’re better off than you, even though you’re doing just fine anyway.

      @ Peter, an unfair society is when productive people are penalised so that “poor me” whingers can feel better about their station in life. To the extent that the very richest in society succeed, it is to the benefit of the whole society.

      Human behaviour is governed by incentives. You might not like that fact, but it is so. The stronger the incentive, the more of that particular behaviour is encouraged. Currently, there is a strong financial incentive in our society for people to get a good education, for people to work hard in order to build an enduring business. This is how wealth is created, this is how societies become rich. And to the extent that businesses can only become rich if they are providing products and services that are valuable, that the rest of society needs and wants, EVERYONE becomes richer. This is a good thing.

      But if you had your way, and stripped the successful people of their wealth and gave it to the “poor me, I went to a public school” people, *poof* there goes that strong incentive. Now, the incentive would be to just kick back and which about your lot in life. And so that’s exactly the sort of behaviour that we would get more of, and less of the productive, wealth generating activity that makes our society rich in the first place.

    • john smythe says:

      01:30pm | 26/10/11

      Now Peter, let’s not try and cloud the issue with your missdirection here.

      Nice try though. But fail.

    • andye says:

      01:36pm | 26/10/11

      @Tubesteak - I know, I was being a smartass. raspberry

      The thing is, the crash in the USA mortgages was essentially a localised thing. The problem was that there was a MUCH larger house of cards built on top of that. When the foundation crumbled, it took out this larger market which was essentially unregulated and which a number of people had pointed out before the GFC as being of great concern. The banks had been making a lot of money collecting these mortgages and then pushing them into the CDS market. Nobody was forcing them to do this.

      When your house is made of straw, is the breeze at fault for knocking it over or is it your fault you built a house of straw?

    • Peter says:

      01:51pm | 26/10/11

      @John Smythe - lol, I have addressed your comment point blank.  But you are at a lost for words, it seems.  That’s ok.  I understand.  I have sometimes also read comments from people on this site which have made me think twice about my own opinions.  That’s good.  The trick is to be honest with yourself. 

      But, just to be clear, I am not advocating against personal responsibility and the need for people to “get off their arse and work hard to improve”, as you might put it.  Yes, there is plenty of opportunity out there and it is up to us as individuals to take full advantage of it.  Yet, we also have to be careful to avoid this free-market puritist ideology which Richard was espousing that says that we all deserve what we get (and have).  The facts do not support that.  The theory is flawed because it discounts factors such as monopolistic behaviour, inherent advantages and just plain dumb luck, for example.

      I know that you are nodding your head now in agreement.

    • Dave says:

      01:54pm | 26/10/11

      Thats interesting. Erick said “While current inequalities may be greater than they ought to be in developed nations, they still mark a society where everyone is better off than they would be in the absence of a free-ish market”. See the words “greater than they ought to be”. Which suggests that even a guy like Erick agrees with the fundamental problem the occupy guys are talking about. The other point, not addressed, is that inequalities of wealth fundamentally distorts the democratic system. The French revolution didnt occur because lots of people were poor - it occured because lots of people were poor and the people with the power wouldnt do anything to address that problem. Thats why “let them eat cake” is such an infamous phrase: it demonstrated the disconnect between the wealthy and politically powerful and the majority who were not politically powerful. And its interesting also to note that a lot of the british system of government that we have today actually came about as a response to the French Revolution and a concerted attempt by the politically powerful of Britain to short circuit any attempts by British subjects to follow the French example. Evolution, not revolution. The difference is the politically powerful of Britain fought a long rearguard action to maintain their privileges, while the rest of Europe took various steps - often authoritarian - to maintain theirs. In any case, it appears that the new breed of politically powerful in these places and elsewhere have forgotten the lesson of the French Revolution and the history of 19th century Europe (particularly the failed revolutions of 1848). Interesting times.

    • Erick says:

      02:03pm | 26/10/11

      @andye - Strawman. I didn’t say that, or anything like that. Please address what I actually said, not what you would like to imagine I said.

      @PsychoHyena - Strawman. I didn’t say that, or anything like that. Please address what I actually said, not what you would like to imagine I said.

      @John A Neve - I really think you might be incapable of understanding what I’m saying. That’s kind of sad.

      @James - Stupid comment.

      @Tchom - I fail to see your point. It isn’t the gap between the poorest and the richest that’s important - it’s the wealth of the poorest. And the wealth of the poorest keeps on increasing in the long term.

    • John Smythe says:

      02:03pm | 26/10/11

      Now now Peter, I call BS on your call BS because you are trying to cloud the issue. No one is denying that people born to poverty have a higher chance of staying in poverty. You even agree that everyone does have the same opportunities. The opportunity exists and that is the point. The difficulties one may face in trying to make use of that opportunity is a completely different argument.

      Nice try, but fail.

    • John Smythe says:

      02:17pm | 26/10/11

      Wow Peter, you present yourself much clearer now in that last comment at 1:51pm.

      I was actually out enjoying a very nice lunch with some work mates. That particular comment resulted in a “failure to post” error which is why I kind of double posted with a follow up comment without seeing your response there.

      Your immediate assumption of being the ever more superior just makes you look more of a joke than your comments.

      Pretty sad really.

      Fail x2

    • Peter says:

      03:53pm | 26/10/11

      @John Smythe - typing “fail” over and over doesn’t make you win an argument.  Why not utilise life’s opportunities and make some good points, instead of taking the lazy dole bludger’s way out of typing “fail” all the time?  You know, it’s up to you to better yourself, not ours.

    • John Smythe says:

      04:34pm | 26/10/11

      Peter, you truly are amusing. You try to belittle me but it just won’t work.

      Richard’s comment is taken out of context by you to try and state that we get what we deserve, therefore, the poor deserve to be poor.

      I’ll agree with that in the following context, the poor (of mind, will and drive) deserve to end up poor. Why, because by ignoring all those opportunities that exist for us all, they are doing themself the disservice, not as you would like to imply, that the rich are doing them a disservice by keeping them poor.

      If you only put as much effort into your argument as you do trying to belittle me, you might actually come across as something other than a winner of the interwebs argumentz~  Gold star for you mate!

    • Tubesteak says:

      04:51pm | 26/10/11

      Andye
      Now it is you that has agreed with me. The government built the house of straw(encouraging poor loans), let people live in it (significant deregulation of the financial market) and then created the wind that knocked it over (low interest rates and high spending).

      Who to blame? Who voted for them…..

    • Damian Parkhill says:

      05:52pm | 26/10/11

      @Erick

      “You’ve also selectively left out all the socialist policies that contributed to the GFC - such as government spending way in excess of income. I’m sure that’s just an oversight.”

      No…..... I just chose not to ignore the 2 regional wars that Bush started and the huge bank bail out made. (and distressingly enough in the case of the EU another round still being considered) make no mistake Erick - the right is just as much responsible in this as the left and center are. 

      @Porter

      “Most to all of your points don’t really apply to Australia.”

      Incorrect, most of worlds economic woes have a big kickback on Australia, this being due to our -massive- over-reliance on the mining sector.

      A number examples are - the minimum wage (which was frozen for nearly 2 years because of the GFC), Under employment (companies claiming they needed to cut back on hours and reap the benefits of -insane- amounts of unpaid overtime to remain profitable) and Super (know a few people that canceled their retirements because their “investments” died and slashed their super fund in half)

    • Richard says:

      11:54pm | 26/10/11

      @ Damian Parkhill~ there is no question, the GFC was caused by the Federal Reserve and Government moral hazards. Seriously, its all explained right here in this video, and if you can’t understand the manifest truth in it, you are very stupid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uDbrvir6Lo&feature=feedu

    • acotrel says:

      05:35am | 27/10/11

      @Erick
      ‘One correction. The responsibility for subprime lending falls squarely on the shoulders of legislators and race hustlers.’
      I sugest that is a simplistic, convenient viewpoint.  The manipulation of these products was done by financiers who were well aware of the risks to the economy.  They could have put their hands up at any time, and acted in the public interest.  The outcome of the GFC has been that the wealthy got wealthier, and all the rest of us have paid.

    • Fiona says:

      08:30am | 27/10/11

      Richard are you serious about those who earn more contribut more to society? Compare and contrast: the corporate banker and he fireman. Your statement doesn’t make sense.

    • Jet says:

      09:12am | 27/10/11

      Fiona | Firstly,corporate bankers pay more tax. They also help companies do the deals to expand and create things called jobs. They do the deals that brings investment money in from overseas, for example for the mining industry and create things called jobs.

      Why not compare someone like a fireman and the factory worker that sews t-shirts together for a living? Or a corporate banker and a t-shirt sewer? The t-shirt sewer contributes less than both the corporate banker and the fireman so what are you saying about them?

    • Fiona says:

      06:36pm | 27/10/11

      Jet, I understand your point, but disagree. Corporate bankers as well as helping create jobs etc, also have helped create misery with the GFC. BTW, where would you be without the humble t shirt? Would you go back to wearing animal skins?

    • Brenda says:

      06:19am | 26/10/11

      Ever been employed by a poor person?

      The protesters and the stories about them are by now probably boring their audience witless in addition to being disliked public nuisances. If they cause further obstacles to innocent people going about their daily lives such as enjoying the Queen’s visit, they are nothing but rabble imo and I hope the cops appropriately dispense with them.

      The Greens involvement in Australian troublemaking demonstrations is here for all to see: 

      http://www.vexnews.com/2011/10/show-me-the-money-greedy-green-politician-nick-carson-cashes-in-on-occupy-melbourne/

    • Nathan says:

      08:13am | 26/10/11

      they have every right to be there just as much as someone who wants to see the queen. Just cause you don’t agree with does not mean they shouldn’t have any rights

    • Erick says:

      08:26am | 26/10/11

      They have a right to protest, but they don’t have a right to take over public space and keep it for themselves.

    • Mark G says:

      08:27am | 26/10/11

      Nathan,

      People seeing the queen are not destroying property, causing a public nuissance and camping in public squares for long periods of time, making the place stink.

    • Fran Smith says:

      08:30am | 26/10/11

      @ Nathan - you don’t get it, do you? The people wanting to see the Queen are NOT taking over a public space for an indeterminate length of time. Unlike the great unwashed, they will head into the city today, wave at the Queen, then GO HOME.

    • Chris_D says:

      08:41am | 26/10/11

      @Nathan, I think you are missing the part about “occupy”.

    • Tina says:

      08:56am | 26/10/11

      @ Fran

      And you will be there to tell everyone to get back to work?

    • andye says:

      09:15am | 26/10/11

      @Brenda - I have never been employed by a rich person either. I have been employed by companies. Do you think personal tax levels for the wealthy affect how many people are employed by the companies?

    • Joey Joe Joe Junior Shabadoo says:

      09:28am | 26/10/11

      Tina v Fran round 2 everyone… let the catfight begin!

    • Zeus says:

      09:40am | 26/10/11

      @ Nathan:

      The unwashed and feral occupiers are stopping people going about their lawful business. They have no policies. They just want to bitch, pee on the footpath or grass, and cause mayhem.

      You forget these arseholes set themselves up in the top end of Martin Place, fronting Macquarie Street, next to Martin Place station. Macquarie St is where all the pensioners and poor go to seek Medicare paid medical treatment. Little old ladies, wheelchair bound disabled have to wind there way through these anarchists. On ya bike mate !!!!!!!!!

    • fml says:

      09:50am | 26/10/11

      How long are you allowed to stay in a public place?

    • Adam Diver says:

      09:53am | 26/10/11

      @ andye, I wonder how those companies started? Probably just came into being by themselves.

    • andye says:

      10:31am | 26/10/11

      @Adam Diver - You are right, but I am not saying there is no correlation at all. I am just questioning this seeming assumption that rich people equate to creating employment. If the CEO of Big Large Company earns twice as much, will that equate to more jobs? No. It would be the company tax rate that is correlated more closely with that.

      There seems to be a tendency to conflate the two.

    • Peter says:

      10:41am | 26/10/11

      Public space if for the…....drumroll…....public

    • NicoleG says:

      10:49am | 26/10/11

      I vote for Tina!

    • Matt says:

      11:27am | 26/10/11

      I’ve seen a lot of employers who are no longer able to employ people because they cannot afford it. I also see the employers work harder than the employees nine times out of ten. The sense of entitlement people have these days truly sickens me.

    • LC says:

      11:55am | 26/10/11

      @ Nathan

      They did have a right to a peaceful protest, like everyone else. Hell they even had the right to take over and camp in a part of the city, but only on the condition they leave when requested. But when that request came down they did not.

      The moment they disobeyed a legal instruction they stopped being peaceful protestors, and started being a public nuisance. Hence the police did their job and removed them.

    • John Smythe says:

      02:52pm | 26/10/11

      Andye, if company y can pay CEO x big bikkies, then one would hope they are employing enough people to generate the amount of capital required to afford his pay.

      So going on position to pay is not really a good indicator.

    • andye says:

      03:16pm | 26/10/11

      @ John Smythe - I guess what I am challenging here is that whole “rising tide lifts all boats” thing. Trickle down economics.

      I think it works the other way around. Think about the marginal utility of money. Lets give a rich and poor person each a $100 raise. If you compare how they are spent, the poor persons last $100 is still likely to go to local businesses. Supermarkets, clothes, whatever. Close to 10% of that is likely to go to GST as well.

      The rich persons last $100 is going to go… where? Saving? investment? Overseas? Wherever it goes you would be hard pressed to argue that as much is likely to go straight back into the economy - to help business and keep the wheels oiled and moving.

      More money into business seems more likely to drive employment than money which is more likely to be used to further build personal wealth.

    • John Smythe says:

      03:42pm | 26/10/11

      Andye, you’ll have to school me a little more in your thinking because I’m honestly not following.

      Your example is true to your point only because you are giving someone that money. If it is a raise to income, then both people are taxed on their income. Maybe $100 isn’t enough to push Richie Rich to another tax bracket, but they are still paying way more tax than Paul the Churchmouse. This tax, should we be blessed with a responsible government, is then returned to the very system that society uses.

      I honestly don’t understand how some people refuse to see both side of the coin by only comparing base income level, and conveniently forget about the level in tax difference paid out.

      You could argue that the person with a bit more financial freedom does actually continue more to the society buy spending more in the community. /shrug

    • S.L says:

      06:30am | 26/10/11

      Occupy are complaining about the unfair distribution of wealth? In my experience a great percentage of these protesters come from the highest socio economic demographic in our fair country! Many of these people certainly could do with a wash but for cash I’m sure mummy and daddy have provided for them handsomely. They get onto some bandwagon at uni and run with it as a form of rebeling. I take little notice of these poor little rich kids…..........

    • Nathan says:

      08:17am | 26/10/11

      you base this on your experience probably cause you are wealthy and know them that way. Don’t know if that is true but is the same assumption your making. Either way it does not matter they have a right to protest what does it matter if they are rich or not its called a social conscience

      You can’t make broad sweeping comments go off on a tangent based on a theory of what you think

    • Alex says:

      08:23am | 26/10/11

      In your experience? And what is that exactly? And is it wrong for someone with money to support those without?

    • Mike says:

      08:26am | 26/10/11

      Exactly.  Not happy about it ?  Then how about you work hard, do without, save and go get some more wealth, that’s usually what normal people in first world countries do ! 

      “You cannot help the poor by being one of them” - Abraham Lincoln

      Seriously, there is a difference between lobbying these same companies who they hate so much versus hating everything capitalist because “communism and being green is trendy or risque’”.

      These same companies will be the ones their super fund holds (not that they take much notice of that), to provide some sort of a retirement for them when they get too old to work.  The alternative is to exist on what the State can give you (and I don’t reckon that will be too much in 30 years !)

      Don’t like it ?  Then how about you get your super funds with all their millions of proxy votes to vote and propose motions at the AGMs that make these companies sit up and listen, starting with votes on the remuneration of the CEOs.  Oh no, that’s too hard, easier to camp in Melbourne and look like a tool.

      P.S. The well-funded mining industry did not bring down Kevin Rudd, he brought himself down with a ridiculous, ill-thought out policy and badly explained policy (much like Julia’s carbon tax) and was gotten rid of internally.  If the mining (or any industry or lobby group) had not wanted him in power, I think that donations drying up would see to that.

    • Fran Smith says:

      09:31am | 26/10/11

      @ Nathan - you STILL just don’t get it, do you? No one has ever said that these people have no right to protest. Geddit?

      The problem here is people thumbing their noses at the rest of society and taking over a public space. How would you like it if I set up a tent city in front of Flinders St Station and inconvenienced all the train travellers there? Or in your local park?

    • fml says:

      09:53am | 26/10/11

      Fran,

      They have every right to protest yer? but not on private property, oh yeh not on public property either?

      Where exactly then?

    • PTom says:

      09:56am | 26/10/11

      SL
      Wow some people are protesting to create a more equitable society but for some reason in you think that is wrong.

      Mike,
      Do understand how the majority of super funds work. You have no say in which shares are purchased and you get no say at AGM on where the funds are held. I can think of three big super funds companies that have no AGM as they are 100% controlled by another company.

      As you might not be aware it was only last week that share holders have been given the power to object to CEO and dictators pay.

    • S.L says:

      10:21am | 26/10/11

      I grew up in Hornsby on Sydney’s North Shore. While our suburb was working class in the 60s and 70s we regularly mixed with kids from neighbouring very affluent areas like Wahroonga, Pymble, Killara etc They went to some of the most prestigious schools in Australia and their parents were top Barristers, captains of industry and anything else in that income bracket you can think of. Many went on to uni because they couldn’t be bothered working and got onto the bandwagon of many a protest.
      That is my experience with these people….......

    • Borderer says:

      10:39am | 26/10/11

      So are these people are protesting about the collapse of the Australian banking system and subsequent bail out by the government like the US protesters are? Are they protesting about the high unemployment levels and lack of social welfare too? Are they protesting about austerity measures being implimented like in Greece? Crushing poverty and lack of opportunity? Was that No, no, no and ummm no. So what is their gripe? They’re just jumping on a global band wagon and basking in the reflection of real social struggle so they can appear edgy and involved. Perhaps if they involved themselves in Australian issues people would actually listen.

    • Kika says:

      10:41am | 26/10/11

      The funny thing is most of them are uni students studying in ORDER to become doctors, lawyers, teachers, scientists. A few may finish their arts degrees and end up doing something for the community. A lot will end up working in companies who they are protesting against. But they are young and angry and they have a right to protest against the man.

    • Matt says:

      12:44pm | 26/10/11

      @PTom:
      If you want a bigger slice of the (wealth) pie, then work harder to earn it.

      If you aren’t happy with where your superannuation funds are invested, then set up a SMSF and then you can decide where the assets are invested. Neat, huh!

      In other words, take some responsibility for your life, and stop complaining about perceived inequalities.

    • neo says:

      01:18pm | 26/10/11

      Exactly right, these kids have money, they have an education. They aren’t protesting for themselves, they are protesting for the society. Someone has to.

    • ando says:

      03:16pm | 26/10/11

      Fml,
      The public don’t want them permanently occupying the public space.  There are so many more effective forms of protest which would not turn the majority against them. The fact that they cant see that they are losing support rather than gaining it,  suggests to me they are selfish and care more about the moral high ground and being part of the cool crowd than the actual cause.How could anyone support an open ended occupation with such general concerns and no solutions which is actually hurting their cause..

    • neo says:

      03:36pm | 26/10/11

      Where do you want them to protest? Some back alley that no one walks though? At home, in groups of 5 per house? What would be the point then? It is a protest to gain public attention, appropriately conducted in a public place.

    • John Smythe says:

      03:45pm | 26/10/11

      Exactly my sentiment as well Ando!

    • Mike says:

      11:30am | 28/10/11

      PTom, this is not about the super funds per se, you TELL your super funds by making noise and writing to them (if enough of you took charge, perhaps through the Australian Investors Association or the Australian Shareholders Association, they might listen) to lodge their proxies and vote, instead of just being lazy and assigning them to the chairman.

      That’s what I was aiming for.

    • Super D says:

      06:42am | 26/10/11

      If the occupy protesters are representative of the 99% they should be mostly coalition voters.  I’d bet that they are 99% Greens voters with a conservative fringe supporting the Labor Left.

      This is not to say they have no right to protest, to give their views an airing and to then be ridiculed for their lack of comprehension of the issues at play and their not even remotely workable solutions.

      Furthermore they have no right to occupy public space.  They are appropriating it from the 99%.  March up and down all day long but no new shanty towns without a permit.  Alternatively we should make available other public spaces for the Anti-Carbon tax crowd to construct their own protest town.  It would be interesting to see who would do a better job.  I’m guessing the anti tax crowd would do a better job.

      The support for carbon trading shows once again if you wrap it up in a green aura then anything is politically saleable.  The carbon trading mechanism will end up the same as the solar feed in tariffs - a direct transfer from the poor to the rich.  A new market for bankers to play with seems somewhat inconsistent with the main stated aims of the protests.

    • fml says:

      09:56am | 26/10/11

      Dislike. “they have no right to occupy a public space”, They have every right. If they cannot protest on a public space where can they?

      Its just an underhanded way of saying you have no right to protest, right after you say that they have the right to protest no less.

    • John Smythe says:

      10:49am | 26/10/11

      fml, stop with purposely taking someone’s point out of context already.

      It’s been clearly stated people DO have a right to protest, but they don’t have a right to infringe on public space for a successive period of time and set up tent city. You know this so stop being such a prude.

      Why do you think cops have to move homeless people out of some spots. Same law mate.

      Will put you back on /ignore until you have a real point to argue.

    • Fran Smith says:

      11:05am | 26/10/11

      @ fml - no one has ever said that these people cannot protest on private land, despite your earlier claim. And no one has said that they cannot protest on public land. What you need to understand is that you cannot take public land away from the 99.99% of the rest of the public.

      How would you like it if I set up a shanty town on the (public) nature strip in front of your home?

    • fml says:

      12:50pm | 26/10/11

      pffffft sounds like too many rules for a democracy.

    • Super D says:

      02:50pm | 26/10/11

      @fml indeed it is too many rules for a democracy.  It turns out that despite most people having basic concepts of how to live together - lest call them the 99% - there is always another group that is clueless.  Lets call them the 1%.  In fact it’s probably even less than 1% who would consider the establishment of an unsanitary shanty town to make some sort of incoherent point.  This 1% are the reason we have so many damn rules.  Hell even the 1% has suddenly found they need their own rules.  In New York they’ve had to restrict drumming to 4 hours per day!

    • Ghost says:

      06:45am | 26/10/11

      Why is it the ratbag, bong smokers seem to be the only ones attending these things?  Why is it they want something for free, something they put no effort into deserving?  If their is unfair wealth distribution it’s nothing hard work doesn’t fix.

    • Tina says:

      07:48am | 26/10/11

      It is true that the people you spot attending these protests (or maybe the ones that catch your attention) seem to create the picture that they are all just “trash”. That is quite sad as there are a lot of people who are in a desperate position despite making an effort. But those people dont have time to protest because they work two shifts a day.

    • Mark G says:

      08:29am | 26/10/11

      Gobsmack,
      ‘He should get a real job.’

      Cant argue there wink

    • reddragon says:

      08:29am | 26/10/11

      @ gobsmack. Yes, he and his ilk should get a real job and stop leeching off the faithfull and taxpayers.

    • Fingers says:

      08:38am | 26/10/11

      @ Ghost - Don’t lump us bong smokers with these Occupy fools. As if we’d get off the lounge and go and protest when we could be packing another Ken Done in front of the tele.

    • Dan says:

      12:19pm | 26/10/11

      Fingers is my nomination for post of the day

    • Semi Concerned Citizen says:

      02:05pm | 26/10/11

      Ghost,

      I just knocked off work , ripped a couple of hotties and will now continue on my day. Between work and attempting some sort of social life and smoking cones , I don’t have time to protest.

    • Kipling says:

      06:46am | 26/10/11

      Well said James. It is good to see the complexity of the problems well articulated. That said, I expect to see some fairly negative and derrogatory responses attempting to pull apart your correspondance.
      Wealth equates with power and the wealthy now hide behind “corporation” and utilise every means at their disposal to maintain and build on their power base whilst simultaneously keeping the peasants in place and available as cheap labour as they require it.
      Any percieved benefits are only in place to keep the subservient convinced that everyone is well off. Watch the following arguments to see how effectively this works…

    • Chris_D says:

      08:08am | 26/10/11

      @Kipling, “Watch the following arguments to see how effectively this works… ”  Good try…..

      I go to work to earn so I can afford to do the things I enjoy doing and provide a safe and fun upbringing for my family.  I may well be a peasant to some, but I’d say my life has a lot of simple pleasures that wealth and power don’t buy.

    • Erick says:

      09:12am | 26/10/11

      The two million people who were murdered by the Communist regime after its military takeover of South Vietnam might disagree about the troop withdrawal.

    • PTom says:

      10:03am | 26/10/11

      Ahh Erick the first to send others to war, but the last to go himself.

    • James1 says:

      10:32am | 26/10/11

      “The two million people who were murdered by the Communist regime after its military takeover of South Vietnam might disagree about the troop withdrawal.”

      What’s your source on that figure?  My understanding is that the post-war death toll was more like 18,000.  Sure, around 1 million were killed in the aerial bombing campaigns against North Vietnam, the regime in the south was responsible for 500,000 deaths in the south, the US another million or so (if one includes insurgents in the figure), and the Khmer Rouge killed around 2-4 million in Cambodia, but I am not aware of any reputable study which shows that the communists killed 2 million post-1975.  Can you direct me to one?  As an amateur historian I would be very interested in this revisionist figure.

    • onlooker says:

      06:50am | 26/10/11

      I don’t know if they will achieve much BUT I for one felt heartened to see these kids out there protesting for they believe in. In the 70’s Australian kids got out there and roughed it and protested and achieved many changes. It was the protest era and something I can look back on with pride. The Boomers won women the right to equal pay and maternity leave and Indigenous peoples made progress on land rights. In 1972, Australian troops were withdrawn from Vietnam due to protesting, there were many other worthy issues addressed at this time. You can make change, but your voice must be heard, and your protest must be peaceful to keep the general public on side. Forget the nasty signs, people dismiss you as a nut straight away.

    • Mark G says:

      08:40am | 26/10/11

      Onlooker,

      All good protests. They had a problem and a solution. For example; troops in Vietnam, withdraw said troops; Women don’t have equal rights, create legislation to force equal rights; Indigenous people have no entitlement to land that they have owned for centuries, Land rights regulations.

      One of the problems with the occupy wall street protest is that they don’t know what they want or really what the problem is. All they know is that the rich are rich and the poor are poor and that this appears to be getting worse. So what? what is the aim of the protest? What are they trying to achieve? Its always a good thing to protest. At least these youths are look at societal problems and not just playing their X-boxes all day but they need to think things through a bit better. It seems to me that these protests are more about restoring the spirit that existed in the 60s-70’s than about any real demand.

    • onlooker says:

      01:35pm | 26/10/11

      Your probably right MarkG I can’t see it achieving much,  the number of people are not large enough to have any real impact. But at least they tried, even though they seem unsure about what is they want. If they start getting violent or bringing out those silly malicious signs..its a lost cause before they start. People tune out and they lose support

    • Foof says:

      07:03am | 26/10/11

      I had a chance to converse with a couple of rather smelly gentlemen from the Socialist Alliance at the Sydney Occupy protest. I asked one of these idiots why they were in fact hypocritically funding one of the biggest most destructive globalized companies in the world on a regular basis. After their quizzical looks I pointed to the packets of roll your own tobacco they carried. Needless to say I was given a non- political/ecomonic reply.

    • Sarah says:

      09:57am | 26/10/11

      @Foof.

      Gold! Gotta love it when you can call out hypocrisy!

    • Zeus says:

      10:00am | 26/10/11

      I bet you they wish they were one of Miss Gillard’s Muslim illegal economic aliens who get free fags. Maybe they could call for an end to that. I haven’t heard any cancer group complain about that yet. They arrive with heaps of the dreaded US dollars, but no ID. Uncle Sam seems to be their only idendity document !!!!

    • Dar says:

      11:12am | 26/10/11

      Well, this is a nice little circle jerk you first three have here.

    • Ghost says:

      05:12pm | 26/10/11

      I guess that makes you the ‘money shot’ then Dar.

    • Chris L says:

      05:54pm | 26/10/11

      @Foof - growing your own tobacco is actually considered a worse crime than growing cannibis (the government misses out on tax dollars that it would otherwise collect).

    • ZSRenn says:

      07:08am | 26/10/11

      I wholly agree James
      I do not know if it is the apathy that has infested Australia and the rest of the western world causing this movement to remain small or the Bully Boy Law tactics used in western society, by police and Nanny State legislation,  to reducing participation in this type of event.

      We used to able to claim a high moral value that we were able to legally protest in Australia but recent events make me wonder if it would be more like Tiananmen Square should thousands of protesters turn up in Martin Plaza and take over.

      We all know the propaganda machine that is the western press will support the people paying their wages and keep the group looking like just rabble rousers whilst in the meantime we have 2,000,000 people in Australia living under the poverty line and this is never mentioned in the mainstream press.

      The world has problems and nobody is listening. They, the powers to be, just want to protect their own vested interests. These problems have been more noticeable in the other nations as we are reasonably protected here in Australia with our Mining Boom.

      But how long can that remain before people start losing homes in the thousands. How long before the plight of the world starts dragging us down too. We will be ill prepared and the soap operas that are our news services, creating daily soft core drama, will run the story of the nice little dog that saved the pet rabbit from the hole and we will feel all fuzzy inside.

      If you do not want to join the Occupying movement that is fine, I don’t either but we really should be trying to listen to the point they are making before it is too late.

    • Mark G says:

      08:24am | 26/10/11

      We used to able to claim a high moral value that we were able to legally protest in Australia but recent events make me wonder if it would be more like Tiananmen Square should thousands of protesters turn up in Martin Plaza and take over.

      1. The police didn’t drive tanks over the top of protesters. They removed them by physical means and none ended up in intensive care.
      2. You do have a right to protest in Australia. What you don’t have a right to do is camp wherever you want, destroy private property, obstruct people going about the everyday legal business and cause a public nuisance.

      The occupy protest in Australia would not have been evicted if they went home everyday and came back to continue the peaceful protest. They would still be there if they were not obstructing legitimate businesses. They would still be there if they were not damaging property. They would still be there if they were plasticising good hygiene within the square. They would still be there if they were not causing a public nuisance. The problem isn’t the protest the problem is the way it is being run. This is why, after the first few days in Sydney, a lot of the main stream protestors left the movement.

      And another thing. Propaganda machines in democratic societies work both ways. The left propaganda is just as strong, otherwise you wouldn’t have the movements that exist. The occupy protest was caused by a world wide call to rise up. How do you think this message got out? Generally speaking a political faction that claims the other side is a propaganda machine is completely blind to the fact that they are doing the same thing often even by the same mechanisms.

    • John Smythe says:

      09:50am | 26/10/11

      Thank you Mark G for pointing out where the true issues of this movement lay. ZSRenn, I’m a bit surprised you took that angle. People are being evicted not because of some political or idealogical belief, they are being evicted…heh..there you go…evicted is the RIGHT word here….for not abiding by the law with their protest.

    • ZSRenn says:

      05:26pm | 26/10/11

      @MarK G Thanks for proving to me that the western propaganda machine has done a good job regards Tiananmen. The tank stopped in front of a lone protestor it did not run him over. This has been well documented and is a very famous photo.

      If protestors numbering up to 50,000 were emplaced in Martin Square smashing shop fronts and destroying property what would be the end actions by police. Sure since 1989 things have changed on how they are dealt with and better riot methods are in place.

      Think about it though, what would be the result in Australia then also? I am old enough to remember Berkley when students who were shot by police in their campus or when Blacks were mown down in the streets for protesting equal rights. I know that was the US but we as their ally we never condemn them for their actions but are swift to turn on China.

      My summary point remains though. We need to listen to this growing distress by many of our citizens, before it becomes a ground swell, as a lot of people are unhappy with the Status Quo and more will be soon sure to follow.

    • St. Michael says:

      05:57pm | 26/10/11

      “I am old enough to remember Berkley when students who were shot by police in their campus or when Blacks were mown down in the streets for protesting equal rights. I know that was the US but we as their ally we never condemn them for their actions but are swift to turn on China.”

      The difference being that Berkeley and the equal rights movement were

      (a) thirty to forty bloody years ago.  Someone your age would, or really should, realise a few things have changed since then; and
      (b) actually led to meaningful change—so much so that economic affirmative action was one of the underlying, if not the main, cause of the GFC.

    • ZSRenn says:

      08:08pm | 26/10/11

      @ St Michael So what is your point Tiananmen was 23 years ago. Two Chinese premiers have come and gone and a third is on his last year in office. If it is so easy to dismiss the actions of the US against it’s people why do we as Australians find it so difficult to forgive the actions of the Chinese.

      I’ll tell you why because the western propaganda machine keeps jamming it down our gullet, teaching us to beware the Red Dragon of the Middle Kingdom. Yet when was the last time you read a story about the race riots in the US and the murders? I cant remember one! Each year our press reminds us of Tiananmen but they never remind us of Berkeley

      Even today AAP had a story written by someone who does not have a clue as to how the one child policy in China works, spewing forth rubbish regarding it, unchallenged it was fanciful.

      Just keep believing that our press and government do not work hand in hand and continue to live your life in ignorance. As long as you believe we have a real enemy and they can keep you living in fear they have control over you.

    • Craig Mc says:

      07:08am | 26/10/11

      Of course they can be dismissed.  They’re just the usual, worthless deadbeats that turn up to every left-wing cause whether it’s G20, pro-carbon-tax, or this.  Yawn.  Lefties who think it’s important have been sniffing their own farts for too long.

    • Nathan says:

      08:19am | 26/10/11

      @craig
      We enjoy many thing because of a democracy and you have to deal with peoples right to protest just cause you don’t agree.

    • Nathan says:

      08:25am | 26/10/11

      Listening to the anti left on this site i propose that we give up anything democratic and make Abbott our dictator and let him rule with conservative values. Can’t have it both ways dope, i am sure if you ask 10 people in a suit if they sympathies with them i am confident allot would say yes…...they are not a minority

      First law you can only protest if its for a conservative cause then you can be abusive as much as you want.

    • Craig Mc says:

      09:09am | 26/10/11

      That’s the problem with lefties, they confuse the right of free speech with the privilege of being taken seriously.

    • Mark G says:

      09:38am | 26/10/11

      Nathan,

      If there is going to be a right wing dictatorship in the country it will not be lead by Abbott. Most of the right dont support him, its just that they see him as a better solution than Julia. Just look at some of the recent polls.

    • Michael says:

      09:43am | 26/10/11

      Nathan, still struggling with the fact that democracy doesn’t just give you or your tribe a voice, it gives a voice to those that oppose you also. You have to up your ante and bring a decent argument to the table as opposed to calling people names and suggesting a system you don’t like is a dictatorship, but a system you prefer…well, that’s democracy.

    • Jet says:

      10:11am | 26/10/11

      Nathan - “Can’t have it both ways dope, i am sure if you ask 10 people in a suit if they sympathies with them i am confident allot would say yes…...they are not a minority”

      I work with a whole lot of suits and I can tell you that I haven’t heard one in support of the protestors - so don’t be so confident.

    • Brizben says:

      07:15am | 26/10/11

      The politics of the Occupy movement seemed positive. The Occupy movement had no rude people with “Bob Browns Bitch” signs. It seemed the younger generation had finally gotten involved in politics.

      I think it is interesting how the right wingers were bleating about “freedom of speech” just a few short weeks ago and yet continually complain about the Occupy protesters.

    • Chris_D says:

      08:14am | 26/10/11

      @Brizben, I think most people are complaining about the fact they have camped out in public spaces and trashed them.

    • Joan says:

      09:16am | 26/10/11

      Chris-D;  Yep. The city square of Melbourne was turned into wall to wall camping site - tents galore with hardly a protester in sight when I walked past it. The council allowed them to camp there for one week - 7 days too many as far as I`m concerned. Protesting is one thing but camping in the city is as another. From interviews as seen and read - this is a protest by gibbering idiots who mostly don’t know why they were there but say they did represent 99%  - (of idiots it would seem.)  this ended up with a video of a representative protester submerged in his bathtub on ABC Q&A asking question of panel -  here we go ABC pandering to mumbojumbo protester in bath -  Q&A puts back meaning into the idiot box.  The protesters and their mumbojumbo protest - totally incapable of articulating their protest. in coherent English language - (some say they are Uni students - now that is scarey! ). so the comentators/reporters end up `creating `a meaning to the protest after deciphering protester mumbojumbo . A group of prostesters so dumb they don’t understand words like `trespass` or `move on`. and gibber on about rights and 99% .  Who can take this gibbering mob seriously ?  The film `Planet of The Apes `makes more sense.

    • JuzzyD says:

      10:54am | 26/10/11

      Ahh the irony Joan. A post lamenting the coherence of the protestor’s message (As far as I can tell.), that just happens to be the least readable and coherent of the entire thread so far.

      Well done.

    • Joan says:

      01:31pm | 26/10/11

      JuzzyD- Looks like I hit bulls eye.  Your post reads like a sad lament of a protester reviewing day after write-ups

    • JuzzyD says:

      03:59pm | 26/10/11

      Well played Joan, you’re oh so close. I spent yesterday at work. Far far away from a capital city, no matter how much I agree with the disturbing disparity between reach and poor.

      You see, the old adage is true. You have to have money to make money. It makes my blood boil to see people claim everyone has the same opportunities. Usually the person claiming this was gifted their deposit from their parents for their first house, lived with parents who paid their way through uni, got jobs through family connections etc.

      I had to leave home at 17, struggled through what education I could while making rent, mostly tertiary certification through on the job training as I couldn’t afford to enroll in full time university. After paying increasing rents from the age of 17 onwards, I’ve been on the back foot ever since. Things are getting slightly easier 10 years on, but I will never afford a house. That’s a two person caper.

      A single can never hope to save a deposit for a 300k hell hole that needs another 100k just to be made livable. The major problem is, with an aging population, the baby boomers have accumulated so much wealth that they are using it to create more wealth to the detriment of those starting out. Previous generations have always been more established when the next generation starts out. The problem is, those previous generations have not used their accumulated wealth as a barrier to prevent the next generation from starting out themselves.

      That is what has led to the death of the land of the fair go, you now only get a fair go if you are lucky enough to be born into a family of wealth substantial enough to gift you your start, then the hard work takes over from there.

    • Seamus says:

      07:24am | 26/10/11

      The unruly, unemployed and unwashed just doing what they do best - bludging off the long suffering Australian taxpayer.

    • Kika says:

      12:43pm | 26/10/11

      Hey my cousin went! She works and goes to uni studying to be a teacher.  Don’t be so presumptious. I was even considering going - and I work for a big company!

    • Tator says:

      07:28am | 26/10/11

      James,
      It is obvious through your comment “The distribution of wealth tells an even more concerning story: the top 20 percent of households have 70 times more net wealth as bottom 20 percent (again we are talking 2009-10 figures). “
      that you have no idea of the demographics involved in that claim as the ABS explains it as the top 20% basically consists of a majority of older Australians who have worked all of their life, paid off their mortgage on the family home and accumulated a large sum in superannuation which can be compared to the bottom 20% who in the majority are young people just starting out in life and haven’t had the time to accumulate the same sort of wealth and have debt in the way of mortgages as they begin building their own wealth.
      As for the income disparity, the top 20% who earn from $68700 (from 08/09 ATO tax stats) can be stated that it has a similar life cycle where people start out on lower incomes and as they progress through life, gain payrises/promotions or move to more lucrative employment. 
      The Table S7 on page 9 of the ABS publication in question confirms this
      http://www.ausstats.abs.gov.au/ausstats/subscriber.nsf/0/51342DFD54324472CA257928001107B4/$File/65540_2009-10.pdf

      so IMHO, most wealth redistribution is from the older generations who have worked their life in advancing their wealth to the young who haven’t had as much time to do so.

    • John Smythe says:

      10:04am | 26/10/11

      Tator, liking your input more and more!

      Gillard fails because she treats people like idiots (as well as a number of other failed reasons)...a lot of authors here fail for the same reason!

    • David C says:

      11:27am | 26/10/11

      Tator thanks for a valubale insight

    • Mikeymike says:

      05:58pm | 26/10/11

      @ Tator:
      Nicely played.

    • Mahhrat says:

      07:35am | 26/10/11

      As always, the answer is indvidual responsibility - remembering, of course, that companies are also individuals with responsibility.

    • PTom says:

      10:16am | 26/10/11

      If only that was the case. As it seem most don’t care as long as they can make money without having to pay for damages.

    • Macca says:

      07:38am | 26/10/11

      That’s all well and good, what do you actually propose is done to facilitate change?

      Sitting in the street complaining that everything in our society is bad isn’t constructive. The Occupy movements are characterized by a lack of a clear message. They are characterized by the same flowery-motherhoood statements that won Kevin Rudd the ‘07 election.

      Campaign on a number of specific reforms, rather than whinging about equality in the world whilst you tweet on your iPhone.

    • AdamC says:

      11:56am | 26/10/11

      Some commenters, here an elsewhere, have suggested the ‘occupy’ movements are an indication that young people have overcome their apathy towards politics. But, to me, the sort of sit in stuff they are so keen on is actually just a more flamboyant form of the same apathy. As you note, Macca, they haven’t actually bothered to participate in a constructive way in the political process to effect change. They haven’t even settled on the sort of change they want. It all seems a little bit lazy.

    • Tina says:

      07:44am | 26/10/11

      I dont get how people can whinge about corporations manufacturing overseas but not being prepared to pay more for the product. Its only two options: cheap in China or expensive in AUS.

    • reddragon says:

      08:51am | 26/10/11

      Agreed Tina. Don’t like consumerism then cut back on the spending and buy local whenever you can. Stuff world trade and the improved lifestyle its brough to us.

      How was Saturday’s dinner?

    • Bitten says:

      03:06pm | 26/10/11

      I used to get a similar eye-roll happening at uni when other students, typically the ones always taking over classes (on just about any subject) by bleating on about the woes of the developing economies and how naughty and bad and selfish the Australian public are, would suddenly start banging on about haggling with some street vendor in Bali over a pair of thongs “Yeah, and I beat him down to about 50 cents mate, fantastic!!” What champions…

    • Mark G says:

      07:59am | 26/10/11

      James,

      Like the occupy wallstreet movement you have rattled off a whole bunch of systemic problems in our society. Even if you acknowledge that these are in fact problems (and for a lot I agree) doesn’t resolve the problem. Neither does pitching a tent in the middle of the city and hurling abuse at the ‘Fat Cats’ and police. The reason the ‘occupy’ protest is taking a battering is because they present no workable solution. They just constantly rant the problems. The reason they are going astray is not that they don’t have a legitimate argument, its that any real solution has been hijacked by left wing, pot smoking, hippie nutters (to use the common ‘Punch’ terminology) intent on the destruction of capitalism and free trade not the restoration of a fair capitalistic society.

    • Static says:

      10:16am | 26/10/11

      Yeah!! As Republican candidate cain reckons its all the poor peoples fault the USA is in the mess its in. Positively angelic those poor bankers.

    • Chris_D says:

      08:00am | 26/10/11

      I see it as I see most arguments for “equality”.  It’s not that they can’t get what others have, it’s just too much damn hard work to bring themselves up the same level, so they’d rather take away something that others have or bring others down closer to their level.


      Having said that, I do believe that all these mega-rich companies and individuals should be giving something back, in some way or some form, to those who are genuinely disadvantaged or needy, rather than those who think they deserve something for nothing.

    • Tina says:

      08:19am | 26/10/11

      Its is quite funny that is always the ones that dont have anything that want to redistribute money equally. But they actually dont want equality. They simply want more for themselves.

    • Adam Diver says:

      09:45am | 26/10/11

      ” I do believe that all these mega-rich companies and individuals should be giving something back, in some way or some form, to those who are genuinely disadvantaged or needy”

      Its called progressive taxation and company tax, as well as employment smile

    • Ghost says:

      10:39am | 26/10/11

      Chris_D

      You might not be aware, but many of these corporations make significant donations to the needy.  They just don’t advertise it.

    • Chris_D says:

      04:14pm | 26/10/11

      Thanks for the heads-up, but I wasn’t saying that they didn’t, I was just saying that they should.  If they are, great, I can sleep better.  wink  Cheers.

    • Fran Smith says:

      08:17am | 26/10/11

      Hmm, another academic with left wing views. Who’d have thought it?

    • Zeus says:

      10:15am | 26/10/11

      It will go well on his CV for published works. I reckon he’s professorship material. All crap with no life experience. Just a lot of quotes from other people of the same ilk. I think they call that “peer reviewed”. Alot of that going around since Miss Gillard assissinated the ‘peoples’ PM - Bob Brown !!!!!!!!!

    • Monty says:

      12:00pm | 26/10/11

      Yeah, those left wingers with their research and their learning. Why can’t they just get their information from Jones and Bolt like the rest of us!

    • reddragon says:

      08:25am | 26/10/11

      “We’re here
      We’re unclear
      and we want stay”

      Yeah, I get it we are all aginst corporate greed, war, hunger, ‘the man’  and anorexic miss world contestants. Now here’s an idea, start out by actually doing something aprt from sitting around complaining, something real. Stop buying expensive consumer toys for one. I walked past these folk in Sydney last week and was greatly amused by the numbers of expensive iphones and the like on display. Right there, that is a good place to start.

      Don’t like that dirty regime somewhere overseas that’s killing or starving its citizens? Go out there and help the locals change it. I can provide you with the templates for effecting regime change. Better still, do your own research, here’s one to get you started:

      Gene Sharp’s pamphlet “From Dictatorship to Democracy” (1993)

      Now go out and do something useful.

    • Big Jay says:

      10:03am | 26/10/11

      @Reddragron - I agree…Don’t just complain, do something about it.
      Think big banks are evil? - Put your money in a small credit union, and encourage everyone you know to do the same.
      Not enough money for schools and hospitals? - Make your own TAX deductible donation to your local school and/or hospital.
      Petrol too expensive? - Stop using it, smaller car, motorbike, public transport.

      Help the locals with regime change? - I have a funny feeling that might put you in difficult regarding Foreign Incursions and Recruitment Act 1978 grin

    • Chuck says:

      08:27am | 26/10/11

      When I happened to pass the demo. last week in Melb. on Frid. I noted that there were more police than demonstrators and I also noted that they seemed to exercise undue force to remove them. So now VicPol have received their pay of - coincidental??
      The demonstrators did themselves no favour in leaving the city square like a Romany Gypsy site! Why should they have policies anyway?? I thought they were railing against world greed and banking incompetence for which they have a large following I would imagine.

    • Engo says:

      08:32am | 26/10/11

      David, perhaps you should further consider your use of statistics, as the way you present them appears to assume that society and wealth distribution is static.

      By way of example, our household income is above average (certainly above the bottom 20%). Yet our net worth is not significantly higher than the bottom 20%. The reason? We are young. We have recently purchased a house, so do not yet have a large amount of equity. But over time, whilst our household income may not move up a significant amount, our net worth will as we build equity.

      So I would expect that those in the highest 10% would be significantly older than us, and have had the time to build up their wealth. My parents, for example, do not have a tertiary education and have been 9-5 workers their entire lives. But they would have a net wealth well over the $1m, yet do not sit in the top 10% of income.

      I do not expect to have the same net wealth as my parents at this point in my life, as I have not had the time to work for it. Likewise, I would think that my son, when he moves out, will have a much lower net wealth than myself (though best of luck to him!!).

      You should investigate these statistics further to consider the impact of age demographics and their impact on the gaps, before blindly copying from another article.

      As for the rest of your article, it’s mostly waffle but I’ll pick on a couple of points.

      Can you name a recent example, where in Australia, “environmental devastation that has ruined livelihoods”? There’s the floods, but they are a natural event (unless you take Bob Browns argument that it’s the coal miners fault).

      There’s bushfires, again a natural event or an arsonist. Though the Greens may have some impact by increasing fuel loads through campaigning against backburning and blocking access to national parks.

      There have been other events, such as the Orica Stockton release, but that has hardly ruined livelihoods or considered environmental devastation.

      Sure, there are terrible events overseas like the gulf oil spill. But in Australia? Not in recent history.

      “Board members and managers are required by law to meet their fiduciary responsibilities with little or no account for the wellbeing of communities, future generations or fragile environments.”

      Rubbish. There are severe penalties for companies that breach environmental licences, which range from fines and imprisonment, to impacts on share value in the market. Many, many companies support charities and their local communities.

      As for Kevin Rudd, I though it was the Labor/Union back room boys responding to the polls to eliminate a leader who was already unpopular within the party, and didn’t fall in line behind the usual factions. I highly doubt that Rudd would have been rolled over the mining tax if he was still popular within the electorate, and his popularity was falling before the mining tax issue.

      “the economic system is letting down a majority of the world’s population: and the evidence is there to support them. “

      Right. So looking at the living standards in the major capitalist democratic economies of Northern America, Europe, Australia, Japan etc compared to say those of the former Soviet union, the middle east, Northern Africa, Asia, etc. On the whole, I’d say our system has worked very well indeed when compared to the alternatives.

    • John Smythe says:

      11:08am | 26/10/11

      The more I read comments like this, the more I believe that there are better contributors than some of the authors themselves. Like Engo here, they are clearly more well read, concise, and not trying to dupe anyone by misquoting figures to use as empirical evidence to express, not not express, enforce some sort of opinion.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      11:44am | 26/10/11

      @Engo- “Can you name a recent example, where in Australia, “environmental devastation that has ruined livelihoods”? That’s easy!!!
      Over-irrigation leading to salinity, Over use of the Great Artesian Basin, possible environmental damage of the Basin through coal seam gas extraction, introduction of noxious weeds and pest into the Australian ecosystem etc. Give me something harder…..

    • Engo says:

      02:28pm | 26/10/11

      Ok Shane

      Over-irrigation - Granted, this is an issue, though mostly due to farming practises. Farmers have had quite a struggle in the recent past due to drought, and I doubt that the spirit of the protest, targeting banks and “corporate fat cats” really runs against struggling farmers. I certainly haven’t heard of this being raised as an issue in these protests.

      Coal seam gas - This hasn’t even started yet. There may well be issues with CSG mining, but it hardly counts as an example of environmental devastation when it hasn’t even begun.

      Noxious weeds/pests - I fail to see who is profiting from accidental introduction of these pests, and they have mostly occured in the distant past (weeds, rabbits, cane toads, minor birds), with the exception of the (I think) crown of thorns star fish being the only major one I can recall in the last decade or so. Happy to be corrected, and happier still to see how this relates to the protests against corporate greed.

      The BP gulf oil spill was a result of poor risk management practises that did cause massive environmental damage and impacted on the livelihoods of fisherman, tourist operators, etc in the gulf region. None of your examples really fit.

      There was the rig fire off of the NW shelf if I recall correctly shortly before the BP spill. But that wasn’t on the scale of the gulf spill and certainly didn’t affect the livelihoods of others or the community, except obviously those on the rig.

      Any more examples? Or would you like to comment on any other part of my post?

    • Kika says:

      02:31pm | 26/10/11

      Over fishing leading to the inevitable collapse of the Australian fishing industry?

    • Engo says:

      04:10pm | 26/10/11

      Kika - Yes, and there are increasingly measures in place to help stop this. Buyouts of commercial licences in Botany Bay, the increasing number of marine parks, the introduction of fishing licences, bag limits and size limits, increases in commercial fishing farms rather than open ocean fishing. From my experience, the fishing in Botany Bay has significantly improved, not decreased.

      Again, “inevitable” means that it hasn’t happened yet.

      This also isn’t an example of what I’ve seen and read about these protests. Which shows that either the message isn’t getting out, or they simply don’t have something coherent at all other than the fact that 1% of the world’s population holds all the wealth.

      These protests are, at the heart of it, about wealth distribution. At least as far as I can tell. My main issue was with how this article presents certain statistics, and in my opinion fails to do even a basic analysis as to the reasons why there is a disparity in wealth distribution. It simply assumes that it is a bad thing that some people have more money than others, ignoring any and all reasons.

      The article also fails to look at absolute wage growth. So, on an adjusted basis the gap between the top 20 and bottom 20 has increased by ~5% over 6 years. 0.83% per year. How does this relate to absolute wage growth? Is 0.83% hugely significant? Or is it just a bad thing, as the author might argue? I would think that absolute wage increase relative to inflation for the top and bottom 20% would be a much fairer comparison. But the author obviously had a pre-determined conclusion to reach and just looked for some statistics to back him up.

    • Old Man Emu says:

      08:42am | 26/10/11

      You don’t need to read the bio to know this article was written by an academic. It’s all cherry-picked facts and opinions that seem true only to those who have never worked in the real world and who don’t understand the concepts being discussed.

      The fact that the gap between top and bottom earners is growing is irrelevant - wealth is not finite, it will always continue to grow and those who have more capital to invest are always going to see a greater return for their dollar provided they invest prudently. The point is where are the bottom earners at and the answer is they’re doing far better under the current system than they would under any other alternative.

      Additionally, those top 20% of earners pay 95% of taxes. This means they are providing other people in society with a disproportionately large portion of the public services that are primarily being used by others. Australia may becoming a slightly more inequitable place, but in actuality everyone is far better off than the alternative.

      In reality these protests are about one thing - jealousy. The people involved are jealous of those who have achieved financial success. Those preaching equality are merely repeating the mantra of all socialist doctrine: More for those who don’t deserve it and less for those who do. If acted upon, this mantra reduces overall wealth, stymies innovation and leads to a directionless and violent society (see USSR, Cambodia, et al).

    • John Smythe says:

      10:33am | 26/10/11

      /cheer OME!

    • Dash says:

      08:49am | 26/10/11

      This article is straight out of the Socialist handbook!

      The thing that shits me about this is the presumption that the “top 20%” don’t deserve to be where they are. That the “top 20%” some how just landed in their position which is complete and utter nonsense.

      This hippie lefty view of entitlement when giving jack shit to our society is unbelievable!

      The people with wealth also contribute the most financially to the running of our society. They are paying 11 times more medicare levy. They are paying multiple times more personal income tax. Many of them operate companies that employ people and drive our economic growth.

      The top 10% of taxpayers contribute over 50% of the personal tax revenue! Yet that doesn’t seem to count for anything in this article.

      We are not all created equal. That is the biggest and most fundamental flaw in the socialist ideology! We do not all have the same skill set. We are not all of the same intelligence. We do not all have the same self motivation. We do not all have the same moral and ethic approach to life and to work. Therefore this notion of redistributing more wealth just because is should be shared equally is utter crap!

      Go and tell share holders (anyone with superannuation for starters) that profits are being put ahead of “human wellbeing” and they will laugh in your face. This is how our society works and has worked for hundreds of years. If you don’t like the freedom and liberty afforded you to get off your arse and strive to make a better life for yourself and your family, bugger off somewhere else!

      People do not deserve something for nothing! The carbon tax is a classic example of socialist wealth redistribution at work . It’s a fraud on the people of Australia and it rewards people living at home and on welfare and punishes the people paying tax!

      How the hell does redistributing peoples hard earned to idiots smoking dope and living on the dole make this a “sustainable and fairer society”? What complete utter socialist crap! Go away!

    • Elphaba says:

      09:35am | 26/10/11

      Well said.

      I notice the movement is becoming more and more inconsistent with celebs like Kanye West throwing their support behind it.

      Any word from Bono? lol

      To James, the movement is being laughed at and dismissed for this inconsistency, and their hypocrisy.  They claim to want a better democracy, but want to tell the rich how much they can earn and how much they have to give away.  That’s not democracy, that’s a dictatorship.

      We are free to earn as much as we choose, and we are free to keep it, or give it away, or do whatever we like.  Communism was tried and shown to be just as corruptable.  If you gave everyone in the world a million bucks right now, in 24 hours someone would have none, and someone would have $2million.  The idea that the problems of the world could be solved by churning a bit of cash around is laughable.  We have problems because we are human.  They’ll continue for as long as we continue.

      My favourite article on this whole issue has got to be this:

      http://blogs.news.com.au/dailytelegraph/timblair/index.php/dailytelegraph/comments/after_the_occupation

    • Jet says:

      10:15am | 26/10/11

      Excellect Dash - well said !!

    • James says:

      10:46am | 26/10/11

      However we are not all born equal are we? What % are born with a silver spoon up their bum and NEVER have to lift a finger to create wealth for themselves and their family.
      You forgot to mention that.

    • Ghost says:

      10:52am | 26/10/11

      So you are jealous James?

      Well you could fix that by working or working harder, right?

      Tell me if you were wealthy, would you not provide for your family?

      Best whinge about it on the internet, that will change the world.

    • LDLS says:

      11:47am | 26/10/11

      Excellent comment Dash.

      Elphaba have you noticed how the squillions Kanye and his ilk make never precludes them from venting against others who made money in the corporate world? But then they’re artists right? Not greedy company types.

      Funny how protestors never have a problem with ‘artist’ multi millionaires keeping their money and continuing to make royalties taking from the ‘poor’.  Strange that.

      As for this article Tator and others have pointed out the cherry picking and shocking lack of attention to details the author has shown so I won’t repeat them all… Mining companies deposed Rudd? Really? Statistical analysis was certainly not a subject he majored in.

    • James says:

      11:52am | 26/10/11

      Not jealous at all, actually I pity those sorts, never knowing the true value of hard work.

      More productive people are needed at both ends of the spectrum.

    • Tator says:

      11:55am | 26/10/11

      James,
      that would be probably less than .5% of the population.  As only 1% (98180) of taxpayers declares an income of over $238k and they have an average income of $541k which means there aren’t too many sitting pretty living off of family money. 
      To clarify this point, According to the World Wealth Report 2011, an annual study by Capgemini and Merrill Lynch, the number of Australians with investable assets worth more than $1 million dollars - excluding primary residence - jumped by 11.1 per cent in 2010. There are now more than 192,000 of them, with a combined wealth of $US582 billion ($553 billion).
      http://www.smh.com.au/executive-style/luxury/number-of-australian-millionaires-on-the-rise-20110623-1ghlt.html#ixzz1bqMFZ2O9  Compared to 1994 when there was only 113000, so 79000 of these high net worth individuals have created their wealth since 2004.
      Another report, consultants Capgemini estimate only 16% inherit their wealth and the most common way that high net worth individuals
      create their wealth is by starting a business.
      http://www.economist.com/node/17929057

    • Elphaba says:

      12:11pm | 26/10/11

      @LDLS, I just laughed when I read it.  Much like I laughed at Bono when he talked about making poverty history, then it was revealed that his cash was offshore to stop the tax man getting his grab.

      I don’t object to people who take advantage of tax havens (good bloody luck to them), but the hypocrisy of ‘cough up you peons, whilst I want for nothing’ is a bit… well, rich.

      Regardless of statistical blah blah blah Re: the article, it was a funny read.  I’ve been taking the whole issue with a very light-hearted view.  This was just another one. smile

    • Ben C says:

      12:11pm | 26/10/11

      @ Dash

      Brilliant.

      @ James

      “What % are born with a silver spoon up their bum and NEVER have to lift a finger to create wealth for themselves and their family.
      You forgot to mention that.”

      You forgot to mention that the wealth was generated by a previous generation lifting more than their finger. Yes, James Packer, Lachlan Murdoch, Gina Rinehart - they all were born with silver spoons up their arses. But how did the silver spoon get there in the first place? Let me tell you: HARD WORK ON THE PART OF THE FOLLOWING PEOPLE:

      Frank Packer
      Kerry Packer
      Keith Murdoch
      Rupert Murdoch
      Lang Hancock

      You want wealth? GO AND WORK FOR IT! JUST LIKE EVERYONE I’VE LISTED ABOVE HAVE!

    • John Smythe says:

      12:36pm | 26/10/11

      Pardon the quoting Tator
      .....
      that would be probably less than .5% of the population.  As only 1% (98180) of taxpayers declares an income of over $238k and they have an average income of $541k which means there aren’t too many sitting pretty living off of family money.
      .....
      but…this is where we link in the article showing what our pollies are actually on? smile

      So, in truth, these people are fighting against the red headed step-child they support so blindly then? smile

    • Economist says:

      01:01pm | 26/10/11

      No I vehemently disagree. It’s convenient to categorise the movement as a bunch of bludging socialist hippies. I believe these individuals are in the minority but represent the more hardcore elements of the movement, in that they’ll squat and carry on, and hence are newsworthy. From my point of view the movement is also concerned with two areas crony capitalism and rent-seeking and the inequalities that result from these activities.

      While I agree with your general assertion that we are not all created equal I believe there are unjust elements that James hints at (the article writer and the commentator below). If I’m a sole trader with a successful business and a recession hits making my business no longer viable I bare the responsibility, the losses. Yet If I’m heading up a corporation I’m some how dissolved of any responsibility between the organisations performance and my remuneration package. I grant myself, with the assistance of some remuneration consultants and directors, a lovely bonus despite not achieving many or any KPIs set, so you endorse this situation? That while clearly the individual has worked hard to get where they are, but regardless of their performance and direction they’ve taken the company they’re entitled to large remuneration package? The number of examples where this goes on is staggering.

      Similarly, clearly corporations require productivity improvements for justifying payrises to staff and that unions are for the most part rent seeking? This activity by unions is deemed effectively criminal, by yourself in that you’ve indicated this in other posts, but the same rent-seeking activities by corporations to avoid their obligations to society are acceptable? Rent seeking to avoid paying taxes on externalities they produce. rent seeking to influence policies that may be adverse to their bottom line rather than doing the hard yards through innovation.

      I suppose also you support what I see as the subversion of the finance and stock industries with not just CDOs etc, but the general behaviour of the markets to hedge and speculate at the expense of companies, shareholders, farmers etc. The idea that stock markets are used to raise capital is no longer their primary objective, that futures markets designed to smooth out prices is now perverted for hedging purposes for blokes with sophisticated software? This activity is the epitome of deserving something for nothing. The true fraud on the people and we reward this behaviour by just saying its business as usual. What complete and utter crony crap. 

      So you haven’t said anything well, you’ve just stereotyped a group of individuals who have numerous concerns and appealed to what is common sensible, that hard work and innovation should be rewarded and that different jobs should and are paid differently without actually getting to the heart of the problem. That while some are accountable others are not.

    • Matt says:

      01:18pm | 26/10/11

      @ James:
      I was at a seminar last week where the guest speaker was saying that wealth is generally created and lost within 3 generations. There is a natural ebb and flow of wealth, which is as it should be. If you’re born into money, odds are that you and your progeny will squander it in short order. So it all works itself out, and the new up-and-coming go-getters are able to start the cycle all over again. So much for people born with a silver spoon. It tends to tarnish easily.

      Hard work and innovation *should* be rewarded, and *is* rewarded. I think that is completely fair and balanced. If you want to improve your lot in life, then study hard, get a better job, invent something new, etc. Just don’t expect others to pay your rent just because you’re unwilling to take responsibility for your life.

    • John Smythe says:

      02:09pm | 26/10/11

      Well said Matt.

    • Mark G says:

      03:59pm | 26/10/11

      ‘Go and tell share holders (anyone with superannuation for starters) ‘

      Yes, one of the great flaws to the people before profit argument. They say that profits are put first but where do they think profits go? Executive salaries have nothing to do with profit. They don’t just have a money bonfire after they accumulate profit. Profits go back to investors (aka people). The only difference between profit and people is what people are getting the money. Anyone can invest in shares and you don’t have to be a millionaire. If you choose to live on wages and not invest for you future then that’s your problem not everyone else’s. Wealth generation is about more than just working for what they call a fair wage and its not corrupt to invest in companies and expect to receive dividends from the profits that that company makes.

    • Tubesteak says:

      08:53am | 26/10/11

      The Occupy protesters are even bigger naive halfwits than the free love hippies of the 60s who thought everyone should just hold hands and sing kumbaya and the world would be perfect.

      There is nothing wrong with unequal distribution of wealth. Wealth is a reflection of personal contribution. In our society anyone can go to uni and do a finance, law or medicine degree and be within the top 5% of earners within 10 years.

      There’s no reason to complain.

      Big corporations should also be allowed to use their voice. They pay taxes just as much as anyone else. Therefore, they should be allowed to speak just as much as anyone else.

      Profits should always come first. This is in line with a rational self-interested human. This is the fundamental driving force of every civilisation since the dawn of time.

      It’s up to YOU to make rational choices in life that benefit yourself. Stop looking for a hand-out and grow up.

    • stephen says:

      09:06am | 26/10/11

      Rational self-interest as a ‘fundamental driving force’ only came to being in the 20th century.
      Capitalism, in its current form, is unnatural, and harmful.

    • Chris_D says:

      09:27am | 26/10/11

      @Tubesteak.  +1. Well said.

    • Tina says:

      09:35am | 26/10/11

      Generally yes. That does not apply though for people with disabilities, disorders, limitations in their work permits or people that have family commitments like having to care for elderly. And I happily contribute to those people receiving help.

    • Ian1 says:

      09:42am | 26/10/11

      Tubesteak, I think that the problem they protest is more in keeping with the growing divide.

      If the system were to absolve the debts every so often (say 7 years), then the system could work better.  In reality, that does not occur.  Many find themselves intergenerationally trapped.

      The nature of compount interest means that enforced economic slavery is experienced by a great many. 

      I would like discussion around a system whereby every child born was gifted a trust fund by the State in lieu of future welfare.  Especially considering that Commonwealth assets are rarely viewed or considered those of the citizenry anymore, especially with all the asset sales the politicians facilitate - to the great disadvantage of generations to come.  A fund unable to be touched until adulthood.  There would then be the start in life, and less welfare dependance as a result.

    • Tubesteak says:

      10:10am | 26/10/11

      Stephen
      Capitalism is the most primal of natural instincts. It has been with us since the very beginning.

      Tina
      Sorry, but no. Some people do have the misfortune of being sick or disabled. That’s too bad. That’s mother nature. If they have family members willing to support them then that’s fine. As for work permits, you can always go back to where you are permitted to work. The elederly should be funding their own retirement.

      Ian1
      The growing divide is mainly because of the entitlement many people have and are not willing to work or work hard.
      Intergenerational debt is rare and can be avoided by the youngsters by selling whatever the parent’s debt was (no doubt a house).
      Giving people lump sums of money is ludicrous. Everyone should be told from an early age to earn their own way in life. I’m sure everyone was told this. Too many choose to ignore it.

    • JT says:

      10:38am | 26/10/11

      Well said Tubesteak.

      @stephen ‘‘Rational self-interest as a ‘fundamental driving force’ only came to being in the 20th century. Capitalism, in its current form, is unnatural, and harmful.’‘

      Absolute and utter bullshit stephen. Self interest is the very essence of human nature and capitalism represents human nature the best and in reality has existed since man first walked on this planet.

      @Ian1 ‘’ I think that the problem they protest is more in keeping with the growing divide.’‘

      Irrelevant when everyone is getting wealthier. The growing divide is simply an excuse for these fools to say I want what you have without doing anything you did to get it, I want it given to me.

      ‘‘If the system were to absolve the debts every so often (say 7 years), then the system could work better.’‘

      Are you mad? So if I borrow to buy a house I should simply wait 7 years to have my debt absolved. That is insane.

      ‘‘I would like discussion around a system whereby every child born was gifted a trust fund by the State in lieu of future welfare.’‘

      What is the difference between that and welfare? It is the exact same thing.

    • Dan says:

      10:55am | 26/10/11

      “Wealth is a reflection of personal contribution.”

      You’re kidding, right?

      A senior doctor saving lives at Dubbo Base Hospital might earn $100 000 a year. A fairly respectable salary, for long, hard, thankless work.

      A senior investment banker might earn $2 000 000 a year for tradingon the stockmarket on a daily basis. An enormous salary for having a fantastic understand of economics and mathematics, and an ability to play the game.

      Which one contributes more to society? Is that banker really worth 20 times more to us than the doctor?

      I get that life isn’t fair. I undertstand that’s how capitalism works. But your comment could do with a healthy dose of reality.

    • JT says:

      11:25am | 26/10/11

      @dan ‘‘Which one contributes more to society? Is that banker really worth 20 times more to us than the doctor?’‘

      Irrelevant. It is not their contribution to society that matters. It is their contribution to their employer that matters. The banker IS worth 20 times more because he brings in 20 times more wealth (most likely much more) for the company he works for compared to the Doctor. Their value to their employer is reflected in their pay.

      ‘‘I get that life isn’t fair. I undertstand that’s how capitalism works. But your comment could do with a healthy dose of reality.’‘’

      I don’t think you do because no opinion you have expressed here is even coming close to reality.

    • Tina says:

      11:25am | 26/10/11

      @ Dan

      The fairness though lies in the choice. The doctor could have become an investment banker and earned that much if he wanted to. But he chose to be a doctor.

    • John Smythe says:

      11:50am | 26/10/11

      @Dan   I’m starting to get why people question commentors’ life experiences.

      Are you seriously comparing a doctor and broker? Do you really understand how these industries work?

      A broker GENERATES capital for clients. The more a client makes, the bigger the commission is given to the company the broker works for. The more commissions a broker can make, the bigger their bonus. More importantly, the more top tier clients a particular broker has in their portfolio, the more “wealth potential” for the firm that person is. And therefore, based on that wealth potential they are paid (to keep them within the firm itself).

      A doctor may be a far more noble profession, but it is not one that generates wealth in such a similar way. Now I don’t pretend to understand the medical profession and all the kickbacks and “subsidies” they may receive for endorsing certain medications, equipment or the like, so I will leave my comment there.

      God how unfair this orange is not an apple!

    • Jet says:

      12:00pm | 26/10/11

      Ian1 - “If the system were to absolve the debts every so often (say 7 years), then the system could work better”.

      Does that mean I get the privilege of working even harder than I do to pay off someone else’s debts as well as their welfare payments - goodie, goodie. And the left accuse the corporations of being greedy.

    • David C says:

      12:07pm | 26/10/11

      Dan .. the investment banker probably earns his organisation ten times that so for them its a good deal. In terms of contribution to society doesnt the investment banker pay a lot more tax ?

    • neo says:

      12:14pm | 26/10/11

      That’s the thing, the broker does not contribute much to the society (at times, he harms society), thus he should not be earning much money. What he contributes to his employer is irrelevant, siphoning money out of the society and into the pockets of a few should not be rewarded.

      That’s where capitalism and socialism differ, socialism focuses on the society as a whole, taking into account the rich and the poor and trying to improve life for everyone. Capitalism only aims at benefiting the few individuals who are sly/smart enough to trick the masses into giving up their money. Take your pick.

    • Dan says:

      12:18pm | 26/10/11

      @all of the above,

      Please. I understand exactly why a broker is paid 20 times the salary of a doctor. I just disagree with the idea that it is “a reflection of personal contribution”.

      Do you not see that as a problem? When a profession that quite literally saves lives, draws just 5 percent the salary of a broker?

      JT says: “Irrelevant. It is not their contribution to society that matters. It is their contribution to their employer that matters.”

      That’s the issue. Their contribution to society should at least count for something.

      Tina says: The doctor could have become an investment banker and earned that much if he wanted to.

      You’re right. It’s a noble choice. But shouldn’t we make the noble choice more appealing?

      John Smythe says: Are you seriously comparing a doctor and broker? Do you really understand how these industries work?

      I do. But that’s beside the point. They’re both potential careers for some of our best and brightest young people. Why don’t the salaries on offer match the actual contribution made to society?

      I don’t want to understate the work of brokers, and those across the finance industry. The firms handling our super funds help grow our wealth, and make our lives more comfortable. A strong finance sector helps hold up a strong economy. I understand that.

      But I can’t bear this idea that one’s income is a reflection of their contribution, our how hard they work. Ask any nurse, teacher or social worker. It’s just not the case.

    • John Smythe says:

      12:54pm | 26/10/11

      Fair cop Dan, but it’s still not in the right context. You, yourself, state exactly how hedge funds and brokers contribute so much to society. (neo, take a lesson there.)

      What you are now arguing against, is pure and simple industry standards and how those standards differ between industries which is a completely different topic altogether.

      If you wanted to focus on an individual’s input to society vs reward they get, let’s not stop at teachers for what they do, and step back further and bitchslap a lot of parents for not doing their job in bringing up better representations of society.

      Companies and individuals pay/contribute/donate a lot through taxes and donations etc. I, for one, do not believe the great socialist regime will ever work, simply because of Australia having way too many people caught up in wealth envy, misguided self-importance and caught up in entitlement mentality. All the while trying to sell it off as caring about a better society.

      If they were truly interested in a better society, they would not approach this from a wealth envy entitlement mentality. They would be far more productive.

    • JT says:

      01:16pm | 26/10/11

      @dan ‘‘Do you not see that as a problem? When a profession that quite literally saves lives, draws just 5 percent the salary of a broker?’‘

      No and why should we?

      ‘‘That’s the issue. Their contribution to society should at least count for something.’‘

      It does, their salary and the esteem and respect they gain for being a Doctor. Ultimately though they are paid what they are worth.

      ‘‘But I can’t bear this idea that one’s income is a reflection of their contribution, our how hard they work’‘

      It is a reflection of their worth. Hard work and their contribution can lead to them increasing their worth.

      You strike me as being incredibly naive and very limited in life experience Dan. I am happy to extol the virtues of noble professions such as Doctors and Teachers but it is ridiculous to suggest we force the value of their work up at the detriment of others simply because it is not ‘‘fair’‘.

      @neo ‘‘That’s where capitalism and socialism differ, socialism focuses on the society as a whole, taking into account the rich and the poor and trying to improve life for everyone. ‘’

      And yet, it has never once worked because when you attempt to change human nature, you only end up making everyone miserable and the only way to change human nature as so many unfortunate souls discovered is through force.

      ‘‘Capitalism only aims at benefiting the few individuals who are sly/smart enough to trick the masses into giving up their money. Take your pick.’‘

      Bullshit mate. Capitalism is the natural state of humanity. We each seek a benefit for ourselves and this results in transactions that mutually benefit both parties.

      You participate in capitalism every single day and you benefit from it but you come on here and rail against it. The proof is in the pudding, do you walk away from every single purchase you make feeling ripped off? or do you think for example: I don’t feel hungry anymore because I purchased that KFC meal. You benefit from the meal, KFC benefits from your purchase.

    • Tubesteak says:

      01:17pm | 26/10/11

      Dan
      I meant contribution on the sense of earning what you do through the labour market (supply and demand for skills, profits generated etc). Not some intrinsical airy-fairy notion of what seems “fair”.
      Btw maybe you might want to have a look at what Dr Tavakoli earns. A plastic surgeon I would suspect earning close to that investment banker.
      You can’t determine what a certain profession earns based on what you think is right. Many doctors are paid out of the public purse which means you’ll either have to forsake services in other areas or increase taxes which is a zero sum game.

      Neo
      Your earning is based on your contribution to the bottom line. It’s not about what’s “fair” or “right”.
      Socialism focuses on rewarding nothing and distributing everything. Capitalism focuses on rewarding effort through the acquisition of as much as possible.

    • Jet says:

      01:19pm | 26/10/11

      Tubesteak | You are so correct.

      Tina | Yes these people should be looked after but that’s the job of the government. A corporation’s job is not to run the welfare system but to make a profit.

      neo | In what way doesn’t the investment industry contribute to society? I work in the investment industry and although I don’t provide a physical product, I provide advice to my clients on how to maximise the results of their investments so they have happy retirements.

      Investment bankers don’t siphon money out of society - they keep the money cycle going. Who do you think puts together the deals that brings investment into this country and creates jobs? How do you think the mining boom could happen if the investment bankers weren’t doing the deals? How would listed companies expand to create more jobs without the specialist advice of investment banks?

      If you think they should be paid less, that’s a fair opinion, but to say they contribute nothing to society is to show ignorance in our money system. But, of course I forgot, you don’t like our system.

    • neo says:

      01:27pm | 26/10/11

      Brokers provide a service to people, for ridiculous commissions. They push to sell hard, not for anyone else’s benefit but their own. Speculation is rife, and risk taking is encouraged. If you are grateful to your super managers, I suggest you check your statement and see how much you lost.

    • Shama says:

      02:19pm | 26/10/11

      Obviously no one on this site watches hippie leftie channel SBS. Yesterday’s Adam Curtis doco pretty much explained why the “nature is rational” i.e. people are selfish and rational has long been debunked by ecologists but is still in play in the 21st century.  Though in all fairness it also sought to explain why 21st century “people” movements like OWS do not succeed

    • John Smythe says:

      02:28pm | 26/10/11

      neo, best stop while you are ahead mate. You are showing how much of a clue you don’t have.

    • Jet says:

      02:34pm | 26/10/11

      neo | Your ignorance of the system reflects the ignorance of most left-wingers. I can say nothing about your comments as they are incorrect so there is nothing to actually argue against. When you come back with some correct, factual information about how the system works instead of hysterical left-wing misinformation then maybe we can talk.

    • neo says:

      02:44pm | 26/10/11

      JT, you make a very good point. I think a lot of people here arguing against socialism only do so because of the many examples of countries failing to build socialism by force. I agree mate, it hasn’t worked so far, people are greedy, it’s human nature for a lot of people. Quite frankly, it would only work if the people in charge are indeed uncorruptable. These people do exist, there are highly intelligent people in this world who put honour above everything else and who are capable of acting in the interests of the society rather than their own.

      We can’t just stop trying to improve ourselves because “it is human nature that we are evil”, I think human nature has come a long way since the tribal days, and if it keeps going the way it is now, socialism WILL be possible. At the end of the day, you are intelligent enough to see past all the propaganda of the cold war days and admit that socialism is a great thing, perhaps an ideal that can only exist in our dreams at the moment, but something that would be wonderful if it could be achieved without repressions and totalitarian control. And once the rest of humanity can understand this, we would have taken the first step towards a brighter future.

      And of course I participate in capitalism, yeah. But notice how through competition, products and services have become cheaper, companies are forced to make smaller profits, and the consumer is benefiting. Before making a purchase, I do my research, I source it from the cheapest vendor I can find (usually online stores), I don’t get ripped off. I don’t contribute to the companies who want to make a huge margin, I support those who make a small one, those making a reasonable living for themselves without ripping off the consumer. Of course, with some products, there are monopolies, and people have no choice. But they can’t last forever, the consumer is getting more and more savvy, and those who stick to rip off tactics (Apple comes to mind) are doomed to fail.

    • Jet says:

      02:50pm | 26/10/11

      @neo ‘‘That’s where capitalism and socialism differ, socialism focuses on the society as a whole, taking into account the rich and the poor and trying to improve life for everyone. ‘’

      No it doesn’t - Socialism is a totalitarian ideology that seeks to steal the political, economic, social, and private lives of individuals and place it all under control of the state. It’s a political class system. Capitalism makes the division of these aspects possible.

      Under socialism individual rights to private property, free exchange, freedom of labor movement are abused. You cannot work freely under a system when your economic and personal fortunes are subject to the whims of the state.

      Capitalism, on the other hand, is where people choose whether or not to take personal responsibility for their lives, suffer the consequences, learn, and adapt. The process of learning brings out the best in people. Progress is not driven by a political class structure like socialism.

    • Jet says:

      02:55pm | 26/10/11

      stephen says:09:06am | 26/10/11 “Rational self-interest as ‘fundamental driving force’ only came to being in the 20th century. Capitalism, in its current form, is unnatural, and harmful.”

      Stepthen I think you need to hit the history books. Rational self-interest is far from being a 20th century event. The history of money and business goes way-way-way back. Have a look at the history of incorporation for instance, way back to the 1600s.

    • neo says:

      03:17pm | 26/10/11

      @ John Smythe
      That’s what people say when they have nothing to say.

      @ Jet

      Exactly what “factual” and “correct” information do you expect to see in a philosophical debate about natural justice? Facts like the millions starving in the world while others spend millions on cars that sit idly in their garages? Or facts like corporations downsizing their low level staff or outsourcing to countries with cheap labour while the exec’s bonuses steadily increase? Please do tell.

      As for your understanding of socialism, I strongly suggest you actually read the definition and the aspects of the doctrine, because you’re making a fool of yourself with your cold war era inspired propaganda phrases. There is no totalitarian control under socialism, there is no need of government, there is no government, no abuse of individual rights. What you speak of sounds like a dictatorship.

      As for what socialism focuses on, it focuses on satisfying the basic needs of every member of the society, and on those members fulfilling their duty to the society.

    • John Smythe says:

      03:56pm | 26/10/11

      I was actually being nice neo.

      But seeing as you want to be a smart arse, go and educate yourself.

      Look up what the SESC and FSA are, and do. Also read into their directives about moral conduct, yes, you read that right, moral conduct they enforce on businesses and their employees who wish to partake in the financial industry, even as far as, and especially related to your comment regarding the advisory roles on financial investments.

      Your comments are grossly incorrect, baseless and clearly display a true lack of understanding.

      For someone to be pushing investment advice on thsoe who can’t afford, they are NOT the big hedge funds. Hedge funds and institutional brokers have minimum requirements of investment. I believe CS used to have a minimal investment for FX at the 10million dollar level.

      there is a reason they use these terms :
      Institutional Investing
      Retail Investing

      The second is the one that you may be trying to raise a point about. This is your little branch bank that dabbles in trying to generate business in investments. All they are doing, is collectively as branches, trying to scrape together enough business to let their securities side handle.

      These are the people who are pushing incorrect advice on your mum and dad retirement investors.

      And guess what, these people are under the SAME regulations as the big institutional level houses. Such practices result not only in the individual losing their advisory license, but also harsh punishments for the company for which they work.

      Mum and Dad have the SAME right as an investor to report such unscrupulous tactics as your big time investors.

      Your point is not only incorrect, but misguided. There are unscrupulous people in every industry.

      Seriously….

    • JT says:

      04:04pm | 26/10/11

      @neo ‘’ I agree mate, it hasn’t worked so far, people are greedy, it’s human nature for a lot of people. Quite frankly, it would only work if the people in charge are indeed uncorruptable. These people do exist ‘’

      Socialism has never and will never work Neo. You start out wrong and just get worse from there. There is no person on Earth who is incorruptible. Such people simply do not exist .

      ‘‘We can’t just stop trying to improve ourselves because “it is human nature that we are evil”, I think human nature has come a long way since the tribal days, and if it keeps going the way it is now, socialism WILL be possible. ‘’

      We are not evil but we will never reach a point where socialism is possible. Give up on the Star Trek fantasy and join the real world mate. One simply cannot take you seriously.

      ‘‘And of course I participate in capitalism, yeah. But notice how through competition, products and services have become cheaper, companies are forced to make smaller profits, and the consumer is benefiting. ‘

      Umm, that is what makes capitalism great and the best system to represent humanity. We all benefit from it.

    • Jet says:

      04:05pm | 26/10/11

      neo | “Exactly what “factual” and “correct” information do you expect to see in a philosophical debate about natural justice?”

      neo - In your posts you’re throwing about statements about what brokers and the financial system like they’re facts without backing them up. You can’t now turn around when you’re called out for bs and say you don’t need facts because its a “philosophical argument”.

      And neo even philosophical debates need facts and not a load of crap chucked in because, hey, if you want that I can make-up any old shit like you do as well.

      “There is no totalitarian control under socialism, there is no need of government, there is no government, no abuse of individual rights. What you speak of sounds like a dictatorship.”

      What utopia are you living in - your version of socialism doesn’t make sense. Who runs the place? Who sets the rules? The people - don’t make me laugh. Who makes the decisions on how to redistribute the wealth you’d like to steal? The Occupy protestors have shown themselves that no consensus can be achieved by the collective.

      This is why you want to keep this a philosophical debate - because your fantasy version of how the world should be doesn’t stand up to factual reality. How old are you? 17-18?

    • Anna C says:

      09:01am | 26/10/11

      While I think that it is admirable that these young people are protesting for lofty ideals, I think they are being a tad naive and misguided if they think they can really change anything.

    • SimonFromLakemba says:

      10:17am | 26/10/11

      They could change something if they knew what they wanted! they could make themselves into a lefty version of the Tea Party and actually get somewhere.

      But if their main gripe is that the rich are going to get richer then America is the wrong place to protest about that, any changes in tax, especially against the rich will never happen, Obama is the closet president they have had to changing something and look at all the crap he gets for it

    • Tina says:

      11:03am | 26/10/11

      I think that most of them actually lack the drive and ambition to change something. Its one thing to have a whinge but change asks for initiative and getting active. Its hard work.

      There were a few in Wellington camping as well, with signs saying “lets plant trees” while they were sitting on the lawn sunbathing. I thought “And what or who exactly is keeping you from doing that?”.

    • Anthony says:

      09:04am | 26/10/11

      The Occupy’s new page three girl?

    • Nick says:

      09:05am | 26/10/11

      I’m not sure if this is an appropriate analogy, but remember the good old days when there was a single income earner in the household, whilst the other person could stay home and look after the house and kids? Why is this such an impossible dream now? Is this because the distribution of income has moved away from the middle class?

    • Anna C says:

      10:24am | 26/10/11

      Nick it’s got more to do with double income couples bidding up the prices of houses, banks relaxing their lending laws and overpopulation. Now everyone else needs two incomes too even consider buying a house. This leaves many single people screwed like me. That’s heaps.
       
      Sometimes I think that we would have all been better off as a society if women with children had just stayed home like in the olden days (and looked after their kids until school age at least).

    • Nick says:

      10:34am | 26/10/11

      Indeed, good point! However there should be the option for men to stay home and be a house-husband, I wouldn’t be adverse to cooking all day, doing yoga and looking after kids.

    • Tina says:

      11:50am | 26/10/11

      I think as well our demands have gone up. I had a stay at home mother. But back then we had one television in the living room, one telephone, obviously no mobile phones, and my wardrobe was not the size of a small country. We want our family home to be in the “good” suburb where the “good” school is and of course we need two cars, one SUV because the mother needs it for grocery shopping, right?

    • Kika says:

      12:39pm | 26/10/11

      Even when I was a young kid (born in the early 80’s) my parents needed 2 incomes to get by. We rented up until Dad got a redundancy at work and we only had 1 car (a dunger), second hand clothes etc. I used to envy the kids who had a Mum at home who could go to the school sports day or come with us to excursions etc. Granted, if they were smarter they could have got by on one income.

      I don’t know what the change was, but I blame the baby boomers like my parents who grew up with penny pinching parents but had things so good the world was their oyster. So working to have a level of lifestyle they wanted (my parents smoke, drink copious amounts of alcohol and even though never had money for my school trips would always have money for holidays). More people in the workforce = less income distribution to the pool. Having a man and woman working means that the employer must fairly distribute the cash to both.

      I love it when my husband is at home while I’m at work. I know the place is being looked after, kept (reasonably) tidy and dinner will be ready when I get home… well all except the latter. Cooking is still my wifely duties apparently.

    • MarkS says:

      09:12am | 26/10/11

      Greece’s excessive military spending?

      Greece spends about 4.3% of GDP on the military, high by European standards, but nowhere near the 28.4% of welfare spending. Greece has disputes with Turkey who spends more with in absolute terms on their military then Greece. Blaming Greece’s budget problems on its military spending is a bit like blaming a person’s smoking for their death by hanging.

    • Lucky says:

      09:15am | 26/10/11

      in our solar system 12% of the planets have 71% of the mass. #occupyJupiter

    • Zeus says:

      10:50am | 26/10/11

      Can we stick our illegal aliens on clean green Jupiter or is that against some UN regulation ???

    • Driftwood says:

      09:15am | 26/10/11

      Well said James, and thank you for delivering an appropriate response to Sophie Mirabella’s scathing dismissal.

      I would like to know if you or any other intelligent, forward thinking individuals have any suggestions for what could now be a new and positive way to move forward as a nation. If not to provide a slogan for the Occupy protestors, then to tap into what is clearly an emerging and significant voting base.

      Surely there is a concept waiting that can serve as cohesive inspiration for us all. Something that can re-ignite nationalism, cater for social and environmental ideals, provide the infrastructure that we deserve and earn us profits through the sale of a finished product.

      Is it even possible, given the power of the current economic elite described in this article?

      If it is possible, now is certainly the time to step forward.

    • Zeus says:

      09:19am | 26/10/11

      “Henderson used his column to attack the soft-bellied former Victorian Police Commissioner Christine Nixon”

      Nothing soft about Ms Nixon’s belly mate. I’d call it corpulent !!!!!! She was a great advocate for fitness in VicPol, as she was in NSW force, and led from the front so to speak !!!!!!

    • John says:

      09:20am | 26/10/11

      I’ve seen video’s of police literally going into the crowd and pulling people away like they are carcass’s. I’ve never seen protests were the police charge into a crowd and pull the protestors one by one away.

      Still i think this movement is being lead by Al-Ciada. Most likely from the orders from obama and his handlers. To cause division between them and the tea party.

    • James1 says:

      10:24am | 26/10/11

      “I’ve seen video’s of police literally going into the crowd and pulling people away like they are carcass’s. I’ve never seen protests were the police charge into a crowd and pull the protestors one by one away.”

      Tell me John, why is it that you use an apostrophe in “videos” and “carcasses” to signify a plural, but not in the words “protests” or “protesters”?  These are both plurals as well.

      If you are going to abuse apostrophes in this way, at least do it consistently.

    • NigelC says:

      12:31pm | 26/10/11

      ” I’ve never seen protests were (sic)  the police charge into a crowd and pull the protestors one by one away.”

      You obviously know little about crowd control techniques then.

    • Zeus says:

      09:25am | 26/10/11

      I bet you think Greece is a leading economic force. You quote crap like this:

      “some concerning Australian Bureau of Statistics figures showing that the top 20 per cent of Australian households earned on average 11 times more income than those in the bottom 20 – up from 8.5 percent in 2003-04.”

      What an idiot you are. The bottom 20% aren’t earning. They are being supported through the social security system by the top 20% of earners. To earn money, you actually have to work. With idiots like you, I understand why Greece is where it is, and how you would we like fellow Aussies to join them.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      11:12am | 26/10/11

      Umm, no. The top 20% earners of Greece got there through tax evasion. One of Greece’s most pressing problems is that tax evasion is rife. The other is overly generous public service and retirement benefits. In short, the same problem that the United States, a distinctly non socialist country is having- too much government spending and not enough tax collection- only their tax evasion goes though the Cayman Islands and Corporate transfer pricing….

    • Anna C says:

      12:33pm | 26/10/11

      Shane from Melbourne is correct. I heard on the ABC that almost all doctors in Greece declare less than $12,000 income per annum and thus pay no tax. Also public servants in Greece are paid three times the salary/wage of workers in the private sector. This was never going to be sustainable and hence Greece’s woeful economic state.

    • Dan says:

      09:32am | 26/10/11

      The ‘Occupy’ movement should be the catalyst for some real discussion on society’s current direction. It’s a shame the kids sleeping in Martin Place are such terrible, terrible spokespeople.

      As James said, it’s wonderfully easy to pull these kids to bits. And, frankly, I don’t have a whole lot of time for the Occupy Sydney/Melbourne crew. They do seem like spoiled brats for the most part - particularly as they tweet about the event on their iPhones.

      BUT, looking into the roots of the movement in the US, there are serious issues at hand. Questions like:

      - Do we want the rich to keep getting richer, and the poor to grow poorer?

      - Has anything been done to stop banks becoming ‘too big to fail’ once more?

      - How do we stop rising unemployment (particularly youth unemployment) in developed countries?

      - What is an acceptable standard of living in a first world nation, like the US?

      Erick’s argument that $10 000 a year is far better than $10 is a welcome reality check. The fact that many of these protestors have to pack up each morning and go to their jobs speaks volumes.

      But the questions outlined above are real, and there are no easy answers. The ‘Occupy’ movement’s main issue is it can’t find the words, or the mouthpiece, to ask them.

    • Kika says:

      10:46am | 26/10/11

      Exactly.

      There are real problems that they should focus on, but by being all over the shop they aren’t promoting their cause of themselves very well at all.

      In the 60’s and 70’s demonstrations were pretty normal. The kids had something to say and the did it. Now, people just see them as filth.  I’m glad they are out there because if they weren’t, then what sort of society would we be in? Bjelke-Petersen’s Queensland? Kim Jong Il’s North Korea? Or Ahmedinejad’s Iran?

      All those points you raised are VERY valid. It’s just we’re doing ok in Australia at the moment, but the fact that the world is so small and interconnected in a million ways it’s fair to say that what is happening in Europe and America will affect us over here… eventually.

    • David C says:

      12:55pm | 26/10/11

      Dan the rich are getting richer but so are the poorer.
      The too big to fail issue is being worked on.
      Rising unemployment is interesting because it might have something to do with the choices being made. You cant outsource plumbers, carpeneters etc to Inida, maybe this idea of getting a degree isnt for everyone?
      I have no idea what an acceptable standard of living is, all I know is thsat the current system is the best way of getting us there.Maybe something new will evolve. It hasnt so far.

    • Kika says:

      02:28pm | 26/10/11

      David C -  The outsourcing tradies thing? Hmmm… well a lot of Asian tradies are moving to Australia and are quoting jobs for half the price and doing half the quality of work. It’s happening here, just not over there.

    • Zeus says:

      09:32am | 26/10/11

      Shit !!!!!  You mean it wasn’t the evil red witch that knifed Kevvie in the back so she could install ‘Little Timmy” in his tool shed when you said:

      “Cleary articulates the way the well-funded mining industry brought down Kevin Rudd, a democratically elected leader, because of their resistance to the super-profits mining tax.”

      By your logic, Gillard, Swan, Shorten, Plibersek, Combet and the rest of the sinking ship are paid up members of the mining sector conspiracy to destroy Kevvie who gave us dead people installing pink batts, school halls that can’t fit the kids in, pricewatch, fuelwatch, rising ER waiting times etc etc.

    • Gaetano says:

      09:53am | 26/10/11

      I’m critical of the protest pure and simply because of what they stand for. This is not an “Occupy Wall Street” faction. It’s a Communist faction. If you don’t believe that, ask the blow joes that attend these protests, what they’re actually protesting about. The spokespeople keep it diplomatic.

      In America it’s about people protesting for what they NEED. In Australia it’s about people protesting for what they WANT.

      They want complete and utter financial equality across the board. No exceptions. They want the CEO of a company to earn just as much as his employees. They want the wealth generated from the mining boom passed down to everyone.

      He’s a thought: if you want something, go and get it. No one is stopping you from going to WA and earning what you so equivocally claim is your right to have.

      Isn’t that what we stand for? If you want something, go and get it?

      Doesn’t that ideal fuel dreams, ideas and creativity? Why would I strive to be my best if I won’t be rewarded for it? Why would I strive to be the CEO if I have nothing to show for it?

      Isn’t that part of what helps define democracy, capitalism? The ability to earn and do whatever it is that you want?

      You need rich and poor. That’s how the world goes round. I don’t want to live the same as everyone else. I want to strive and be bigger and better.

      What they’re trying to say has no weight here, because we’re already a capitalism society with social programs: we are neither aggressively capitalist, nor socialist. We’re right in the middle, and it’s why we have and will continue to ride the GFC and any future GFC.

      Financial equality is the biggest compromise we’ll face in ultimately trying to achieve the dreams that are driven by success and wealth.

      Some of you might call that greed.

      I call that freedom.

    • Tina says:

      11:39am | 26/10/11

      I dont really like how some people talk about CEOs of large corporations. I am the assistant of one, and I must say, I would not swap for all the money he earns. I would not be able to cope with his workload and level of responsibility for one week. People like to portray them as evil, but they follow one simple goal, profit maximisation. Thats how the world rolls. You wouldnt buy shares of a company that supports people before profit as that company wouldnt be able compete and survive.

    • James1 says:

      11:51am | 26/10/11

      Indeed Tina.  Everyone I know who earns a heap of money has an awful life, full of stress amd work and devoid of fun and family.  They may earn a lot more than you or I, but they also work and stress a lot more as well. 

      I am more than content to work 9-5, bring home a pay packet in the upper-middle range, and spend time relaxing with my family.

    • Chris says:

      09:53am | 26/10/11

      I just find it funny - and I do mean funny - that people who don’t have money, or property or jewels or wealth or holidays or anything else feel they should have, whether deserved or not, always want those who have it to give it to them. I don’t care for the argument they should work harder, or those who do work harder and earn more have done so by doing just that - working harder. It’s just a simple case of those who don’t have want, and those who do have don’t want to give. I for one have and won’t give. Why? I earned it! It’s that simple. I pull myself up from the gutter, got an education, got a job, got another job, got a better wage, got an even better wage, put money in the bank, made some good decisions - not lucky ones, just good decisions and now I can afford a “nicer” lifestyle.

      If those who “occupy” want the same for all then possibly, and just possibly they should “occupy” their time with a little less chants and slogans - to which are not being listened to, nor will they be - and pick themselves up, get an education - of any type, get a job - of which there are plenty, work harder and smarter, get another job that pays a little more and just try and succeed. It’s that simple.

      There is no magic formula, or magic redistribution of wealth. Those who are MEGA rich will always be so and will never change. So stop admiring them - as that’s what it’s all about, admiration that they (the occupiers) don’t have - so get on with your life.
      If there was this mass underbelly of change desired I think the somewhat 100 rabblers would be 100,000 - which it isn’t - and will never be. Why? We are, most of us that is, are concerned with our own lives, our own slice of getting on, and our own desires to be in the top 20%. No one wants to be in the bottom 20%, so no point taking time off work to lose income to not pay the bills to be evicted to have no support – work, money, food, and then find that we have plenty of time to join the “occupy” set. Theres a lot to be said for NOT going backwards.

    • Dodge says:

      10:36am | 26/10/11

      At what point would you call out the wealth disparity as an issue for society?

      Did you expect the people of Egypt and Lybia to just be ‘content’ with life ans shut the hell up?

      And yet more cheat beating from conservatives about ‘working hard’, and ‘I earnt it’, blah blah. I have tons of money, but I’m not arrogant enough to think it was ALL my doing. It was a confluence of factors including the industry I chose, my contacts, my fortune and a myriad of factors. Like - I’m extremely lucky, as you are, to live in a society that allows the generation of such wealth (Unlike say, the vast majority of countries on the planet)... The sheer selfishness that comes out in these threads is really quite incredible.

      So I return to my first question, at what point would you understand the protests occuring? When the wealth disparity became like America? Perhaps like the various totialitarian states found in the middle-east and Africa?

      Would you EVER complain, or would you embrace your endentured servitude to the dominant plutocrats like a good little serf?

      I contend it’s the slave like mentality of people like you that are the real problem. It’s clear progression, understanding and innocation in politics or sociodemographics is not your forte, so I would conclue that extends to your ability to generate wealth raspberry

    • Zeus says:

      10:59am | 26/10/11

      @ Dodge:

      So how much of your “wealth” do you distribute to charity each year - 10%, 20% or 99%. You seem like you wouldn’t be an actual hypocrite sprouting hyperbowl !!!!!!!

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      11:24am | 26/10/11

      @Chris- There is a magic formula for wealth redistribution, it’s called demographics. There is nothing that the west can do, that China and India can’t do better. The sad thing is that the western corporations collude in their ultimate decline and demise in the name of short term profits….

    • Dodge says:

      11:27am | 26/10/11

      I don’t give much at all, apart from two regular small charities….

      Australia has a strong tax system which for all intents and purposes distributes money to folks in a similar fashion to charities, even with similar amounts of waste.

      It’s part of the reason I think Dick Smith was a tool for going on about Aussies not paying enough to charity, and he cited America as the example to follow - he seems to have missed the part where Corporate America and the 1% are criminally undertaxed over there, and ‘some’ people make up for that by giving more to charity.

      Next…

    • Chris says:

      11:50am | 26/10/11

      This is what I love about the true sense of human nature - it’s all BS. Dodge, you suffer one of the great failures of all people, and sadly you have done very well to articulate it. You presume to know the person you are responding to so well that you can make the sort of ... well, let’s humour you and call it ‘witty’ and ‘intellectual’ comments you have made.

      You may start to see a rather patronising theme develop here, so brace yourself to retort in the manner I expect you will.

      I am sure you think you are educated because you have managed to say nothing with such an intelligent sounding piece like:” Would you EVER complain, or would you embrace your endentured servitude to the dominant plutocrats like a good little serf?”

      I’m sure you think this sounds clever, yet it doesn’t. It means nothing. A true Degree Graduate in Arts. Congratulations.

      I’m glad you think I am a conservative. It’s a wonderful thing that - I shall tag you as a leftie - lefties when confronted by an opinion they don’t agree with by someone that can’t bring themselves to rationally discuss without to label them a conservative or a right-winger. If it makes you feel better so be it. My political persuasion should not matter a tot my opinion.

      I do fail to see your point, maybe my blinkered conservative right-wing thoughts won’t allow me to see your clear and progressive and well thought out points of view.

      I work. I make money. I accumulate some more money. I put MY money, get it? MY money to course. I’m lucky to make some more money. That means I can afford some “nicer” things. Understand that bit? Good.

      Your problem with that is? I thought so, nothing. As I don’t believe for a second you would give away your “tons” of money to have a level of living say on ... $25k a yr. Would you? No you wouldn’t. Why, because you on the left - get it? There’s that random tag association again - will never practice what you preach.

      You assume, like so many that peoples wealth was given to them. Therein lies your problem. You believe that no one can actually make something of themselves from nothing and then want to enjoy that success. If I didn’t then I couldn’t join people like yourself and give away my tons of money - ohhh whoops, you haven’t - and then just wait for all the wonderful people like you - ohhh, whoops again, you haven’t - distribute your “tons” of money to me.

    • Dodge says:

      12:42pm | 26/10/11

      Thanks for the fun Chris. Though, trust me, you are essentially left-wing when compared the the whack fundamentalist Theists I typically debate with on US forums.

      I find the general conservative position intrinsically funny, so it feels easy to make fun of them. I’m seeing a cultural shift in Australia to the sort of nonsense Tea Partyesque stance seen in the US, and why I feel compelled to reply on these threads.

      Now, I’m sure you appreciate the colour I inserted into the posting, the highlighted quote you threw up was a highlight of that, I’m glad it tickled your fancy… I wouldn’t say it was pointless. The running theme from conservatives seems to be ‘shut the hell up, don’t complain, be happy with your station’... I just don’t think you can expect people to be happy with that. You’re in a way attempting to suppress the human nature to better themselves. Further, you contend that ‘poor’ people have themselves to blame and haven’t ‘worked hard enough’ and all that chest thumping cons seem to think carries so much weight.

      I can’t seem to get a straight answer from Cons about how they feel about the people of Egypt and Lybia. It really feels as if they think those people should have simply bowed to the powers that be. Thankfully, that natural human inclination to better one’s self could not be suppressed by those regimes.

      Now, as far as money and all your non-sensical rambling in the last couple of paragraphs - no, I wouldn’t ‘give all my money away’. As before, Australia has a solid tax structure. I pay a top rate and am extremely grateful for the society that has been procured here with those taxes.

      I never assume wealth was ‘given’ to people. that’s a strange link to come up with from my posts, but a good percentage of the very wealthy are born into that, just fyi.

      “You believe that no one can actually make something of themselves from nothing and then want to enjoy that success.”

      Nonsense. I simply believe, you live in a country which allows wealth creation far more easily than the vast majority of the world, thus it’s encombent to give back to the system that allowed that to happen.

      You understand there are extremely rich people who have a left wing, liberal mind-set right? Warren Buffet for instance, one of the world’s greatest capitalists. Just like there would be people in the OWS demographic of income earners with a deeply conservative mind-set.

      You seem particuarly put out about my own income, I just got lucky to be honest… I’d pay more taxes if I could see where the money was being spent, but right now, it’s a happy medium in this wonderful country.

    • Ghost says:

      10:08am | 26/10/11

      Anyway, great stuff ‘Occupy here and there’ you achieved nothing.

    • Freeman says:

      10:08am | 26/10/11

      the last paragraph cracks me up, Like these dimwits have unearthed something that would have never occured to the rest of the population and we are all ‘standing up and taking notice!’

      these fools are not representative of anything other than the lice in their hair. they’d probably protest against the free distribution of soap if you told them it was a government conspiracy.

    • Dan is superior says:

      10:09am | 26/10/11

      I can’t wait until WE ALL own businesses and become job generators. We can all be rich together, it’s going to be great.

      Not sure who will actually do the work for our businesses because there will not be any people worse off than us, so there will be no one keen to do the sh*t jobs for minimum wage (because we are all rich remember).
      Maybe we could find some desperates from the poorer countries to do the work, after all it’s their fault for being poor. (get off your ass remember)

      If we were ALL rich does that mean WE will have to do the all hard work ourselves…....

    • Ghost says:

      10:49am | 26/10/11

      You struggle with life don’t you Dan?

    • Dodge says:

      10:50am | 26/10/11

      We just need a Mexico Dan!

      I do enjoy all these corporate ass kissing demagogues clearly incapable of championing the system they have a passion for.

      Indeed, for a successful Upper Class Capitalism requires a lower class, and a middle class to buy your crap.

      Without the right balance, the house of cards collapses. The OWS protests should be a red flag to these people, but instead it incenses those who see their protests as redundant, to hate on them further. GG

    • Al says:

      11:00am | 26/10/11

      Dan, there is one simple principle you need to consider:
      If we are all ‘rich’ then prices in the market for many goods and services will increase as well meaning that when everyone is rich, no one is.

    • Anthony says:

      11:15am | 26/10/11

      Not many poor plumbers but all have dirty hands. Not many people go from earning nothing to millions and the ones that do arn’t particularly happy. We all start at below the minimum wage. If your boss buys a new car do you blame him? Not everyone is an asshole.

    • Dan is superior says:

      11:34am | 26/10/11

      @ Ghost - yes I do.

      @ Dodge - You can see. Most are blind.

      @ Al - Who is raising the prices ?

      @ Anthony - Does the plumber have dirty hands or is it the apprentice ?

    • Anthony says:

      11:59am | 26/10/11

      @ Dan the superior

      OK lets ban apprenticeships; at last we have a reason to protest!!!!

    • Dodge says:

      12:12pm | 26/10/11

      Dan, most are just…. Selfish and greedy.

      You need only read the conservatives on here… They simply can’t understand people doing things without money being the focus. They must scratch their heads in awe at charity workers or people content in low wage positions.

    • David C says:

      12:25pm | 26/10/11

      Dan you have to get your head round the concept that not every one wants to do or be the same thing. Thats the beauty of the system

    • LC says:

      10:46am | 26/10/11

      The best economies in history are the ones with small governments, with few but very strong regulations, and tough penalties for breaching them enforced by the courts. This approach DOES work, and you can see this even in this society where some areas are heavily overregulated. Lets look at some of the areas where there is very little government intervention and solid private competition: Mobile Phones, Comptuers. The quality of the goods/services keep going up and at the same time the price keeps going down. Now on the other hand lets look at a few areas where there is very heavy govenrment regulation and control and in some cases next to no competition: Electricity, healthcare, education. The price keeps going up while the quality of these services slides.

      One of America’s key problems is laws governing private corporations and banks aren’t tough enough, creating the situation we are seeing now with the GFC.
      But in Australia this isn’t the case, in fact Australia usually goes too far in the other direction, and the GFC was not felt by banks or companies in Australia, except for companies that deal primarily in exports, by the very banks these people protesting against, by the banks these “Occupy” people are protesting against meeting and planning with the government to develop some solution to wether the storm, and thier solution worked perhaps better than they thought (considering how close and Australia and America are economically).

      The “Occupy” movement is irrelevant outside of Europe and the US.

    • Richard says:

      01:16pm | 26/10/11

      Well said LC!!

    • Bob Sanders says:

      10:46am | 26/10/11

      This is just typical. I can’t believe they get away with this. I’m so sick of it. I don’t want to raise my three children in a world that tolerates this sort of BS. This is like that other stuff that happened last week which also pissed me off. Who do they think they are, anyway? And who do they take us for, the tax paying citizen? Everyone needs to wake up to themselves and stop it with this sort of puerile nonsense. I’m really over it.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      11:29am | 26/10/11

      @Bob sanders- Who is they? The protesters? The police? The government? What other stuff that happened last week to piss you off? (a lot of stuff happened last week) Your entire post is unclear.

    • Mike Stanley says:

      12:42pm | 26/10/11

      Well said, Bob. Glad someone said it. I just think we, as a people and a country, should stand up and say No to this sort of stuff. In the end, who pays for it but us and our tax payer dollars? But if I can make just one point, I think ‘tax-paying’ needs a hyphen.

    • Mike Stanley says:

      12:58pm | 26/10/11

      Well said, Bob. About time someone said something like this. I think it’s ridiculous that we and our tax dollars have to pay for this sort of thing and other things that are like this. If I can just make one point, I think ‘tax-paying’ needs a hyphen.

    • Bob Sanders says:

      01:35pm | 26/10/11

      Mike Stanley, you’re wrong about the hyphen. And you are stupid for posting your comment twice. Makes me wonder if you really are a tax-payer after all. Derrrrrrr ...

    • Mike Stanley says:

      02:22pm | 26/10/11

      No, I do think that a compound adjective preceding a noun requires a hyphen, except when the first adjective describes something like a colour - you know, like dark brown chocolate. Do you like chocolate? I wish you were right about me not paying tax… but I am a tax payer and I don’t like paying tax when it is wasted on things like this whole thing that’s going on in this story.

    • Scott Mortimer says:

      03:45pm | 26/10/11

      I have to agree with Bob Sanders - all thes BS is a burden on the taxpayers. I mean who pays the cops, who really have better things to be doing than break up protests by doll bludgers, like catching criminals and putting them in jail where our taxes are for good use. It comes from hard working taxpayers.  To all the doll bludgers “Get off you’re asses, get a job and pay some blooddy tax!!!!!”

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      04:11pm | 26/10/11

      @Scott Mortimer- yeah, bludgeoning dolls should be a crime…...

      Considering that breaking up protests and <censored> crap out of some smelly hippies just earned the Victoria Police a massive pay rise, I don’t think they had anything better to do….

    • Scott Mortimer says:

      04:31pm | 26/10/11

      Get lost Shane. Bet you’re don’t even pay tax like us hard working Aussies do

    • Mike Stanley says:

      04:33pm | 26/10/11

      @Shane, I think he means dole bludgers… He might not have a spell checker lol. Do you find hippies smelly too? I thought it was just me… I’d say that they should be washed by the government but then that’s more of my tax dollars wasted down the bin. But I like it that the Vic Cops got a payrise… I’ve heard from uncle Dave, who lives on the Mornington Peninsula, that there are a LOT of crims down there in the state of the long white cloud.

    • Zeus says:

      11:11am | 26/10/11

      The only results I’ve seen from the “Occupy anywhere but Beijing” protests so far is that a 14 year old girl has been raped in an occupiers tent, fellow occupying thieves are rampant in NYC, they have a penchant to burn cars and smash windows, they smell, most can’t spell given their signs and they all vote for Gillard, Obama and other leftoid ratbags. Says a lot about why the world is in such a mess.

    • Zeus says:

      11:13am | 26/10/11

      The only results I’ve seen from the “Occupy anywhere but Beijing” protests so far is that a 14 year old girl has been raped in an occupiers tent, fellow occupying thieves are rampant in NYC, they have a penchant to burn cars and smash windows, they smell, most can’t spell given their signs and they all vote for Gillard, Obama and other leftoid ratbags. Says a lot about why the world is in such a mess.

    • Tina says:

      12:04pm | 26/10/11

      Not to mention those attention-seeking haircolours. If they can afford to dye their hair orange and blue then it cant be too bad.

    • Kika says:

      02:46pm | 26/10/11

      Tina I’d think you’d find that chemist hair spray colours are far cheaper than a $400.00 salon visit.

    • Cry in my Gin says:

      11:45am | 26/10/11

      Where’s mine and why isn’t it bigger?

    • Joanne says:

      12:07pm | 26/10/11

      No one said that life was fair.

    • Fat Cat says:

      12:21pm | 26/10/11

      We can argue all we want, but the general manager at my work earns $300,000 a year, and we have a letter from the ATO saying that he should be getting charged 15% tax. For the first year of his work, we had a similar letter for 0% tax.  If you still think the system is not broken, you are a complete fool.

    • Matt says:

      12:33pm | 26/10/11

      @Fat Cat, there is no way what you’re saying is true. You’re either leaving out a lot of additional information, or making it up as you go along.

      Either way, you don’t seem to have much of a comprehension of how the tax system in this country actually works.

    • Nilbog says:

      12:34pm | 26/10/11

      You’re general manager sounds awesome… that is 100% winning on his part!

      Don’t be a hater!

    • Fran Smith says:

      12:44pm | 26/10/11

      @ Fat Cat - why would you have a letter from the tax office giving you private information about another employee’s tax liability? And why would you also be in posession of another private letter allegedly stating that this employee should not be paying any tax at all? And in the off chance that your job gives you this confidential information, why are you publishing it online? I hope your employer fires you and then sues you.

    • Michael says:

      01:03pm | 26/10/11

      Sliding scales for income taxes, no such thing as flat 15% for individuals.Australian tax office didn’t send you shit about your manager’s pay or taxes.

      0-6000 tax free
      6000-37000@15%
      37000-80000@30%
      80000-180000@37%
      180000+@45%

    • Chris says:

      01:06pm | 26/10/11

      When there is so much you could have added that would be believable you have to come up with a lie.

      Ohhh, that’s just disappointing, and a very lazy mind.

    • Ben C says:

      01:06pm | 26/10/11

      @ Matt

      It is possible, but at the end of the day when the tax return is lodged, Fat Cat wouldn’t know how much his GM is actually paying.

      @ Fat Cat

      Before you go spouting off about the tax system, learn how it works first.

      Your GM is not getting tax withheld from his wages (PAYG Withheld, which is paying tax upfront). This is something that he can apply for. Do you know how much he would’ve paid when he lodged his tax return? I can guarantee that he would’ve paid something, as he didn’t have the tax paid upfront.

    • Matt says:

      01:27pm | 26/10/11

      @ Ben C:

      Thanks for the tax lesson, but I’m pretty sure I already know how it works, being a Chartered Accountant/Tax Agent/holder of a CPP, etc.

      If I were to take a stab in the dark, I’d say Fat Cat is referring to a PAYG withholding variation application, as a result of owning a substantial amount of negatively geared assets. It seems unlikely though that he would be able to get his income down to around $37,000 for the year from a $300,000 salary.

      Nevertheless, this is none of Fat Cat’s business, and he/she should be more worried about his/her own tax position, rather than that of the general manager.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      02:59pm | 26/10/11

      Tax evaders and tax minimizers should be shot…..They threaten the very lifeblood of the state….

    • Ben C says:

      03:34pm | 26/10/11

      @ Matt

      Ah, you’re a fellow accountant? The variation was exactly what I was referring to as well.

    • Ben C says:

      04:07pm | 26/10/11

      @ Matt

      Tax lesson wasn’t exactly directed at you either, it was at Fat Cat.

      @ Fran Smith

      Fat Cat would be in the possession of the letter if he/she was the payroll officer. The ATO notifies teh payroll officer so that the varied rate of tax is deducted from the employee’s pay, not the standard rate as prescribed by the ATO. Otherwise, if Fat Cat is not involved in the payroll function, then something isn’t right.

    • Matt says:

      04:25pm | 26/10/11

      How very humanitarian of you, Shane from Melbourne.

    • Matt says:

      04:34pm | 26/10/11

      @Ben C
      Its all good. smile

    • jade (the other one) says:

      01:19pm | 26/10/11

      The problem with suggesting that because the average Australian is wealthier than many in other parts of the world, and therefore should just shut up, is the fact that the more inequality widens in a society, the less opportunity the lower end has to get to the higher end.

      We have universities in the Group of Eight now wanting to charge higher fees for their courses, supposedly because of the “higher quality”. Yet their student results do not reflect this reality.

      We have a society where the basics continue to cost more and more, and wages at the lower end of the scale are not increased in line with these increases.

      When I was at primary school, owning an electric typewriter meant that you must be very wealthy, and to own a computer was almost unheard of. Now, families who do not own a computer (because they cannot afford it) or do not have expensive, high download limit internet access, are well in the minority, and fall into the lowest areas of wealth distribution. The effect is that their children are disadvantaged by an education system which assumes internet access, and educated parents who can assist their children.

      It also is problematic when considering access to the workforce. People in the lower percentile, often do not have the opportunities to develop skills and experience, due to lower education levels. Therefore, they become restricted in the range of jobs they can apply for. While FEE-HELP for university courses is widely available, it is the other expenses, such as textbooks, resources, and various fees that are sometimes unaffordable for the very poor.

      How many of those here who are university graduates can honestly say that they did not receive one skerrick of financial assistance from their families, whether that be buying one or two textbooks, providing meals, or paying fees? There are families that simply cannot afford those expenses and this makes it one step harder on those from backgrounds to access higher education.

      Even to study a trade, you are required to provide certain clothing and equipment up front. The fact that this can be claimed on tax does not alleviate the initial expense, and for those who don’t have the ability to outlay a few hundred dollars, this makes entering trades impossible.

      To enter certain other jobs, you need licences, tickets, or police checks, which cost money. If you do not have the money to spare, it makes it difficult to save.

    • Kika says:

      02:24pm | 26/10/11

      Totally agree.

      Also with Fee-Help, the kids who actually earned their way into uni by working hard at high school (unlike the children of rich parents who can buy their kids way into university courses) will have disadvantage when they actually start working because they have their Help Debt automatically taken from their pay which reduces their incomes and saving abilities. The debt is indexed every year as well, making it that little bit more harder to pay off. No wonder why so many kids move overseas.

      Meritocracy is a dream and only a few every break it out of the class of their parents. Few.

    • Anthony says:

      03:22pm | 26/10/11

      I got no help from my parents at all when I was at uni. Had two part-time jobs.  Dick heads like you still made me feel guilty for doing medicine. Also had a 150,000 HECS debt at the end of it. Having to buy text books and wear clothes is not a new problem. This is how I would have looked at it: Ten bucks an hour =thirty hours during summer break will cover your tradies dillema. Seriously harden up.

    • Chris says:

      03:29pm | 26/10/11

      I have to ask this, you honestly believe all this do you? There is nothing like regurgitating A Current Affair type sensationalism to make a point which has no substance at all.

      Life is tough. Life is hard. Honestly! So, get over it. What do you want? Are you suggesting, which you are, that people - that’s the rest of us who have already paid, pay for your kids or others to have a free “trade” or “education” to then go on and make money and possibly become these wealthy people you so obviously dislike?

      When you advocate refunding my HECS and all the debts I incurred PAYING for my own education then let’s talk turkey, however until that happens get off your arse, and pay your own way.

      So if you earn a low wage and let’s assume the cost of living rises $100 a week then you want $100 a week more for nothing? Is that it? First get rid of all the things you don’t need and then let’s see if you can’t afford anything.

      It’s this BS from the likes of you that more than likely assume that much of what you have is a ‘right’ when in fact it’s a want - not a need. So give up the smokes. Stop eating out. Stop the booze. Take your own lunch. Stop buying the coffees. Stop paying for Foxtel. Buy the $10k car and not the $30k. Have a few less kids. Stop trying to keep up with the ‘Jone’s’ with a house you can’t afford. Stop taking the expensive holiday you don’t need. You don’t need the new TV, buy a digital box and plug it in, you don’t need the big plasma with all the bollocks, you just watch it after all. Shop at, ummm K-mart. Buy sneakers and no Nike etc. Leave the iPhone and iPad and iTunes and the rest of the ‘i’shit alone and keep the phone you have. All you need to do is make a call and send a text. And the list goes on ...

      Once you have done all this and still can’t afford the few hundred a yr. to undertake a trade then, as I say, we’ll talk turkey, yet you will give up none of this as you think it is a right.

      The irony of this sort of BS and the “occupy” rent a mob is this: you have no idea what it is you do want, and want to stop, other than those who are lucky to have it better shouldn’t [have it]. The fact you are not rich, or wealthy, or have more money than you want to have is no one’s problem, or FAULT. It’s not the MacDonald’s of the world that have made you poor. Stop eating it, they will shut-up shop. You call on your iPhones and think Apple understands “me”, yet they make more money than anyone AND dont give a thing back, yet the rabble wasting time in our cities text and chat and Facebook and twitter away on the very products that they want to get rid of because of the “corporate” greed.

      Grow up. Stop blaming everyone else for your bit in life. Some have it good. Some have it worse than others, yet to complain you can’t get what you want in this country, Australia ... well you really are a self-indulgent miserable piece of ...

      My last bit of advice, leave. Go live somewhere better. Go join a monastery, pitch a tent in hills, live off the land, yet until you do, go away, shut up and get on with your life.

      @Kika, show me one place at a University, real evidence not the ACA or TT version of events, that has not been given to a student – HECS that is – and went to a “rich” kid who was paid for by mummy and daddy. Just one example. It’s all I ask. A proper verifiable example.

    • Chris says:

      03:55pm | 26/10/11

      @ Anthony If know one else ask’s, I will. Really, $150,000 on HECS? That does seem like a lot.

      Does this fit into your other post of “...just make shit up”?

    • Anthony says:

      04:10pm | 26/10/11

      Yes by the time I deferred payments and small loans that was the debt. I think you will find the average cost will be 120,000 a year.

    • Ben C says:

      04:11pm | 26/10/11

      @ Chris

      If you’ve ever studied the HECS-HELP contribution bands, and looked at the length of time a medicine degree plus any post-graduate study takes, $150,000 for medicine is quite normal.

    • Kika says:

      04:27pm | 26/10/11

      @Chris - it happens all the time! John Howard changed the rules in his 2nd last election making it permissable for universities to admit full fee paying students to courses that they want to do. I can name names if you like, but I won’t on this forum. But I know of many cases of rich kids getting admitted into courses where they wouldn’t have if they went through fee help.

      I know of a friend who got into a science degree thanks to Mummy and Daddy paying up front even though he scored the 2nd last rank you can get on the OP scale in QLD.

    • Kika says:

      04:35pm | 26/10/11

      And Chris you can look up the rules yourself. Obviously it’s been a while since you went to uni! Probably before 2004?

    • Chris says:

      04:52pm | 26/10/11

      I am perfectly aware of the rules thank you, and I know that any acceptance of “full fee paying students” is in addition to the intake of HECS paying students.

      So, no HECS paying student has lost a place, unless you are trying to make the point that: if they can accept more students who pay upfront they must therefore have more room to accept more students, and hence they should be HECS paying students - that is, those students who got the grade.

      Yet this is a circular argument. The government has always allowed full fee paying students, in small numbers. So it’s nothing new. Where would this stop? Stop international students because if there is room for them then there is by extension room for more local students (HECS students that is).

      So once again, no student has lost a place or opportunity, it’s just that there are places available for those who can or wish to pay upfront. I’m not sure where the problem is.

      And yes ... I did go to Uni prior to 2004.

      @ Anthony and Ben Looked up an interesting site. Shit me, HECS fees have gone up a lot since the early/mid 90’s.

    • Anthony says:

      05:36pm | 26/10/11

      @ Chris was that interesting site
      www. nobodylikestolooklikeacockbutIdoitallthetime.com

    • Tator says:

      05:38pm | 26/10/11

      Kika,
      from memory, one of the conditions that is in place for universities who allow full fee positions is that those who pay full fees are allocated additional places and do not take one that is subsidised via HECS.  It is along the same principle as full fee paying international students who also do not displace HECS funded positions.

    • Kika says:

      05:42pm | 26/10/11

      @Chris - I beg to differ. The criteria that the Fee Help students have to reach to get admission into the course is a lot tougher than the full fee paying students.  Universities also don’t have unlimited course places for students, so balancing the Help students and full fee paying students is part of the parcel.  Of course International Students pay their way into courses. They are the bread and butter for the universities. My gripe is with local domestic students relying on their parents to get them into the course on the back of a blaze attitude towards their high school education, where the kid with the working class parents has to work their A**s off to get good grades at school to even get a look in to doing the course they want.

      It’s wrong, but from what I read today they may be tightening up this even more. Good.

    • Tator says:

      06:08pm | 27/10/11

      Kika,
      the reason that the HECS funded places have higher criteria is that there is a demand for those positions and the governments along with the Universities have decided that the fairest way for people to earn one of those funded spots is via their TER, which by the way is corrupted by bonus points being available for “disadvantage” etc.  The way they do this is to set a quota on the number of student positions in each course and then use the TER to rank them.  There are very few courses that require a prerequisite score in specific subjects and some like Medicine at Adelaide and Flinders Universities don’t actually use the TER as the sole guide to selecting students but use the UMAT testing regime to screen domestic applicants.

    • Anthony says:

      01:44pm | 26/10/11

      Yeah and his name is Elvis! Rock on Dan. Why bother arguing when you can just make shit up.

    • No weather tomorrow says:

      01:51pm | 26/10/11

      the bit rich people of our society dismiss poor occupiers as they only see the world in dollars and cents only. Nothing and Nobody else counts!
      Thats how the bit rich got a big rich in the first place.These luxury loving bit rich old blokes support Occupy Vagina but not Occupy Sydney or Occupy Melbourne

    • Chris says:

      02:45pm | 26/10/11

      Its posts like this that make me re-think my attitude. I should pay more tax so our education system will get more so people don’t have to come out of school with this sort of illiterate education.

      Sorry we failed you “No weather tomorrow”.

    • Kurisu Sonsaku says:

      06:22pm | 26/10/11

      Dude - just say NO to drugs mmmmmmkay

    • poa says:

      03:29pm | 26/10/11

      Your comment:“What do we want?...We don’t know!!!”...“When do we want it?....Sometime!!!”
      But we’re copying young socialists in America and protesting about the way American culture is taking over the world!
      Brainless Lefties..Gotta love em…they bleat too much when you violently arrest them.

    • jg says:

      03:58pm | 26/10/11

      Reminds me of when I was a young idealistic uni student. Protest against this protest against that, stick it up the man.

      Now we all work in responsible jobs earning over a $100K per annum. That is, except for a few lazy arsed people who kept protesting, never did any work and have been sucking on the public teat for all their lives.

      In fact, I would hazard a guess that the latter is probably all for these ‘occupy’ movements given that they can go along and have a whinge about inequities, even if they are self imposed.

      Nothing different.

    • James says:

      04:00pm | 26/10/11

      If you push people too far the protest may not always be peaceful.  I would enjoy the peaceful protesting period while it lasts, trot out your well worn put downs if that makes you feel better about yourself, all it does is identify you as a tool who confuses being lucky with positive personal attributes.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      04:25pm | 26/10/11

      @James- Actually I agree with you. These protests are symptomatic of a much larger issues within western society including the nature of ethics (Enron, Savings & Loans, GFC 2008), the nature of democracy (lobbying, campaign contributions, political advertising by corporations), the international economic structure caused by globalization (who owes what and when), It is no wonder that the protesters have few specific demands. The issues are so complex and potentially unsolvable, that they might have to let history take its course. It may mean riots or revolutions at the end of the natural events.

    • Brenda's sister says:

      04:13pm | 26/10/11

      Australia endured 10.9% unemployment in the early 1990’s, which is higher than the present US figure.

      No-one was pitting Australian against Australian during that recession as occurring in the US, and being copied to some extent here. Australians helped each other out and weathered the storm without rancor. People who could not employ themselves felt fortunate when successful companies hired us. Unproductive backroom agitators with too much time to do far too little seem to be encouraging a hateful culture of envy. None of us are entitled to anything without very hard work and occasional set-backs.

      The protesters are looking too much like recruited playthings, ugly front-liners for faceless agitators.  In the long run, they do not represent anyone but themselves.

    • stephen says:

      06:05pm | 26/10/11

      By contrast the US has no comprable welfare/public health safety net, so when things go wrong people are more exposed to real hardship than here.

      This would explain in part the difference in social unrest.  Wrong to judge them as playthings.  Don’t underestimate the real anger in the US at what is occuring.

    • St. Michael says:

      06:39pm | 26/10/11

      Proof’s in the pudding.  For all the Occupy Wall Street and the Tea Party screaming, they didn’t change jack when the decision had to be made as to whether the US’s debt ceiling ought be increased.  The Tea Party was supposedly opposed to raising the debt ceiling.  But just about every “Tea Party” delegate voted in favour for it in Congress.

      If there was either real knowledge or real anger about the government’s profligate spending the debt ceiling would not have been raised and the entitlements would have been cut, as they must be, by 50% or more.

      There wasn’t, because the US voting population is essentially drugged into submission by their addiction to their entitlement schemes.  Particularly the US military, which has entered the Potemkin Village zone: active-duty personnel, equipment, and ammunition are being sacrificed in order to pay for the lifetime benefits scheme the US Army gives to its careerists who retire after 20 years.  Obamacare is accelerating that process.

      Don’t think the US politicians, both Democrat and Republican, don’t know this.  Obama wants the entitlement train to continue because it buys him votes.  Cain’s rhetoric is all on reforming tax, not reforming entitlements at the far end.  Even the most far right Republican candidates like Ron Paul won’t go anywhere near the subject of cutting entitlements—because although it has to be done eventually, whoever suggests it first will be lynched at the primaries or shot on the White House lawn if he somehow makes it that far.

    • Chris says:

      04:25pm | 26/10/11

      My question is: what do you want to actually happen as a result of these protests? Save-the-whale protestors invariably want an end to whale culling. Environmental protestors invariably want to preserve the planet by pumping less crap into the air and the sea. Anti-war protestors always want an end to war.

      Well, what is it?

    • Jay says:

      04:30pm | 26/10/11

      Unfortunately the protesters were the same rent a crowd (socialists and anarchists) who appear to protest anything. They missed a very good opportunity to articulate the specific concerns of a lot of people.
      Their so called representatives just parroted whatever they were told to say. They could not even make a decision unless the Central Committee agreed.
      What they failed to understand is that Spain and Greece are perfect examples of how uncontrolled Socialism can bankrupt a country in a little over a decade.

    • Brenda's sister says:

      04:59pm | 26/10/11

      That’s it! 
      Instinctively I feel there’s something more sinister occurring behind the scenes. It feels like some kind of excessive mind control where trained organisers achieve a perverted sense of satisfaction from measuring their power by the numbers they can influence. Organised incitement of hatred.

      I’ve heard others remark that they too are experiencing a similar discomfort.

    • Kika says:

      05:54pm | 26/10/11

      So the fact that Spain and Greece also have less work hours than the rest of Europe and the West, and also have retirement ages at 56 has nothing to do with it?

    • Ximo says:

      06:55pm | 26/10/11

      Retirement age in Spain is 65! Spain is not bankrupted (yet)... And it was not uncontrolled Socialismo the problem in Spain, it was liberalism measures; like decreasing taxes, helps to construction sector…
      Greetings from Spain!

    • St. Michael says:

      07:00pm | 26/10/11

      It staggers me how people just don’t get the Greek problem.

      Government finance 101: when you are a government, you pay for things either by tax or by loaning the money from someone else.  There is no other way the government gets its cash.  (Let’s leaving aside printing money, which is a disaster zone.)

      If you can’t or won’t raise enough tax from your own population to pay for all the things you do for that population, you have three options:
      (a) let your borrowed debt rise ever higher, which will make it harder and harder for subsequent generations to pay the debt;
      (b) tax your population at higher rates to pay for it; or
      (c) cut the things you do for that population so you can pay for it.

      Greece’s problem was (b).  Either it can’t tax enough, or refused to do so.  Therefore it borrowed—hard.  And eventually the borrowing came back to kill it.  Unfortunately the debt level is so high, and the same practices have been going on among idiot nations in the EU in similar proportions that it now carries the risk of bringing down the euro if not the EU entirely.

      But if you think the fallout from Greece is bad, wait until you see what the US has in store.

    • St. Michael says:

      04:53pm | 26/10/11

      “Australia is becoming a more inequitable place and this has nothing to do with Bob Brown or the price on carbon.”

      Don’t think that either of them will make the country any more equitable.

      “The second area of concern raised by the Occupy protestors is the fact that profits are placed ahead of human wellbeing. We do not have to look far to see the examples of this: The sports wear industry has become synonymous with ‘sweat shop’; clubs throughout Australia supported by state governments defending poker machine profits despite the overwhelming evidence of the social harms; the removal profitable manufacturing industries to places where labour is cheaper (and conditions much worse); and, environmental devastation that has ruined livelihoods.”

      Leaving aside the scum who defend pokies as essential for the survival of clubs and the entire AFL—that is fairly and squarely on point—the other two whinges here are, as with most lefties, not looking at the full equation.

      Overseas sweatshops and overseas manufacturers are generally paying much, much higher wages than the average employer in their country does.  That’s right across the board, including food production.  Admittedly this is getting into relative wealth which everyone has trolled over already, but it’s a significant distinction: stick a sweatshop in Bali (another place we all like to exploit relative wealth to its utmost) and you make its workforces comparative millionaires.  Take those sweatshops away and you would destroy an equal number of people in that location as you did by removing the manufacturing base here in Australia.  Leave them there and they become institutions that entire economies begin to flourish around.  It’s no different than early labour development in the US: large employers became the focus of towns’ entire economies.

      The other argument, which seems to a tacit call to pump third world wages up to first world minima, is also asinine since there is one inevitable result of a wage breakout: rampant inflation, which murders an economy just as decisively as negative growth.  It has happened here.  The last time that happened in Australia people were paying mortgage rates high enough that you were literally buying houses on credit cards in today’s terms.

      It also ignores the fact that it’s a comparative minority of multinationals that manufacture overseas, and in most if not all cases it’s largely large-run consumer commodity goods which are made there.  High-tech gear is still largely manufactured onshore in the US, and niche manufacturers remain in their native countries for the most part.  It is simply an argument about comparative advantage and the joys of specialisation.

      “Fair” trade is nothing more than “protectionist” trade by another name, and Mizz Gillard, for all her leftie credentials, has said openly that free trade is essential to the entire planet’s economy.  It’s about the smartest thing she’s said in the brief period of time she’s been in power.

    • Jay says:

      09:42am | 27/10/11

      When you say equitable what is it that you are actually trying to say?
      Technology and the gadgets and modcoms is readily available to everyone. Unemployment is at a low level, and our social security is one of the best in the world. Education is free and Medicare provides for medical needs. You say equitable, does that mean that a surgeon or the head of a Corporation should be paid the same as someone who works in a call centre or a factory?  My mum used to work 12 hour days at General Motors(with overtime)  on the factory floor, then cleaned offices on the weekends.She saved and scrimped to own her own house and provide a living for her family. This was in the days when interest rates were fixed at 13.5%, and the average salary was $97.00 per week and the fact that she was a woman she automatically earned less.Sweat shops are a disgrace but the reality is that it provides work and an opportunity for people who would otherwise have no work. If the Union movement wants to be relevant then they should agitate for better conditions and pay for these people. I pay more than my fair share of taxes and I have no problem with this, but I am sick and tired of listening to whining socialists who want equality and democracy and have no idea what they are talking about. Put your head down, work hard, save your money and you can achieve anything you want in this great country. Why is that so many people want to come here? Finally with the clubs and Pubs, again I ask you to consider how many people the industry actually employs.There are hundreds of bowling clubs which provide facilities for members like bowling greens, day trips and cheap dining. These retired people have an opportunity to socialize and not feel like a burden. At my local bowls club I love meeting the people whom I met years ago and catch up with on a regular basis as we practice our bowls.We do not sit there playing pokies. If people cannot or will not take responsibility then ban all gambling including horse racing,tattslotto etc.Just remember people get on the net and play on line poker and pokies. They lose their shirts but not one cent goes back into our economy.  While we are at it, let us ban alcohol and smoking as it kills so many people, let us set motor cars to only be able to travel at 60km per hour and ban junk food.Perhaps we can regulate how much television people can watch. Do you see where this is all going?

    • stephen says:

      06:20pm | 26/10/11

      In the defence of capitalism I think many of you are missing the point of what caused the anger in the first place in the US, both on left and right, is it isn’t true capitalism with rewards and risk, but crony corporatist government.

      Rewarding of incompetence, negligence and the resulting moral vacuum is the real danger, as there is no incentive to make good decisions.

      With no negative consequences for making bad decisions, people in positions of great power and wealth are empowered to keep on making bad decisions, only next time ramp up the risk even more as the general public are their safety net.

      A true system of rewards and consequences could punish recklesness and with penury and shame.  Take down a bank and get fired - not likely!

      However they run a oligarchy peversely supported by people who gain nothing by doing so - blinded by faith in the system.

    • Jay says:

      11:22am | 28/10/11

      Absolutely spot on. Obama for all his rhetoric quickly lined with the establishment and let Goldman Sachs get away with murder. How does the representative from AIG & Goldman Sachs walk in and see the President and tell him that unless AIG received 50 billion dollars by monday they would collapse. If I had been President I would have walked in and said well s**t happens better make sure there were no irregularities or you will go to jail.Instead Obama bails them out. No enquiry, no questions just wrote out a cheque. The whole notion of corporate governance needs to be examined and when irregularities are found then the people in charge should be jailed and their assets stripped from them.It is the same with Company’s which fail to meet their statutory obligations and pay workers superannuation or benefits, They should become personally responsible and their assets seized until the debts are paid.

    • Joel B1 says:

      08:43pm | 26/10/11

      The McDonalds protesters.

      “Wow, they’ve got McDonalds in the USA !

      We had better catch up!”

      Nuts.

    • Col. of Blackburn says:

      08:55pm | 26/10/11

      @James
      If you are so depressed being in the bottom 20% then may I suggest you ditch the T-Shirt for a collar and tie and shave every day! wink
      The sad truth for the protestors is that they had their day in the sun and then were asked to move on. When they refused they became subject to the law, the same law that applies to all of us, rich or poor. If BHP Billiton or Rio Tinto had occupied the City Square for the same length of time, they would have been moved on as well.

    • Dags says:

      11:27pm | 26/10/11

      @ Sindy says: 12:28pm | 26/10/11

      No he sells the houses and pays capital gains tax…

    • James says:

      05:06pm | 27/10/11

      I have a feeling a lot of smug middle class folk will be eating their words in short order as they realise their super ain’t what they hoped it would be.  They might even be forced to join the smelly ferals:)

    • Sick of the BS says:

      01:13am | 30/10/11

      Its interesting hearing a few of the comments attempting to justify outrageous CEO salaries by claiming these CEOs are contributing to society thanks to their work. Are you suggesting someone like Alan Joyce contributes more to society thatn say a brain surgeon or the like? It would be an easier pill to swallow these pay differences if these CEOs didnt deny the workers a 4-5% payrise while getting a 70% payrise themselves (yes im using the current QANTAS situation as an example here) WHat is even worse is when a CEO almost destroys a company through piss poor management gets a “golden handshake” and gets paid millions to leave! Im pretty sure if i cost my company a years worth of my salary + in damages i wouldnt be paid a years wage to quit!
      As for the people talking about welfare and how we can always afford to live with the barest essentials thanks to our welfare system…. How many of you have ever had to live on the dole? $460 per fortnight doesnt go real far these days!

    • Joan Bennett says:

      09:05am | 02/11/11

      Capitalism promotes equality of opportunity.  If you don’t want to take that opportunity (ie be on the dole so you can attend protests), that’s fine.  I chose to be a tax payer to fund the protesters (huh?).  I chose not to study and work hard and take risks to be a CEO, so happy earning pleb wages.

 

Facebook Recommendations

Read all about it

Punch live

Up to the minute Twitter chatter

Daniel Piotrowski

"@Sandra_Sully: K Rudd urges Australians to pick up the phone - state your views - rallying everyone to have a say #tennews#dirtypolitics"

Daniel Piotrowski

RT @BenFordham: Kevin Rudd says his colleagues see him as the "best prospect" to save the ALP.

Anthony Sharwood

Meanwhile, in the real world, hard-working Australians pack the kids' lunches and bundle them off to school #Ruddvenge#Auspol

Daniel Piotrowski

And @_Tors on Labor's scorched earth shenanigans http://t.co/E9I69dG5

Recent posts

The latest and greatest

Live blog: Gillard’s press conference

Live blog: Gillard’s press conference

Julia Gillard will give a press conference at 9.30am Eastern Time to respond to Kevin Rudd’s shock…

A sneak preview of PM Kevin Rudd Mark II

A sneak preview of PM Kevin Rudd Mark II

After modest carousing following his second elevation to Prime Minister - no more than half an hour -…

Scorched earth is all that will remain if they keep this up

Scorched earth is all that will remain if they keep this up

Never underestimate the furiously protective streak of an adult daughter towards her father. Last night…

Nosebleed Section

choice ringside rantings

From: Australia, we’re a bunch of heartless travel snobs

Justin says:

My 2 cents worth, If you feel the need to belittle other peoples holidays/methods of travel/experiences/destinations/restaurants they choose etc etc, then you should probably take a look at yourself in the mirror as well. People should be free to travel as they can best afford, best suits… [read more]

From: This Sally’s no lay down, she’s a lay down misère

Jacques Meoff says:

"Why can't we have more athletes like Sally Pearson?" The answer is actually pretty simple, notwithstanding the simple fact that she is an incredible athlete, the AIS pour 99 percent of their money into supporting the swimmers. Unless you form part of that team you fund yourself to train, travel and… [read more]

Gentle jabs to the ribs

No wuckin forries. These nuckin futs are tuckin fops

No wuckin forries. These nuckin futs are tuckin fops

Well, puck me with a fitchfork. The F-word is apparently an acceptable part of Australian speech. That’s… Read more

160 comments

Newsletter

Read all about it

Sign up to the free daily Punch newsletter