During Ramadan just passed this last weekend, an Australian born Muslim cleric was reported to have called for the beheading of a Dutch MP for denigrating Islam.

Afghan soldiers dance to celebrate the Eid al-Fitr that marks the end of Ramadan. Photo: Anja Niedringhaus, AP

The world currently faces the real risk of nuclear weapons being obtained by a Shiite leader, Ahmadinejad, who draws his belief system from a strain of Islam that longs for the apocalyptic return of the 9th century Imam, Mohammad al-Mahdi. A significant portent to the messianic return of the Mahdi will be the re-possession of lands once ruled by Muslims. For Ahmadinejad, this means first and foremost, Israel.

How are we to deal with militant, fundamentalist Islam? For Australians, living as neighbours to the largest Muslim country in the world, this is no minor issue.

First, let’s be clear that the call of brave dissidents like Ayaan Hirsi Ali for Muslims to renounce their fundamental beliefs is a counsel of despair. Over a billion Muslims are not going to convert to a form of Enlightenment agnosticism or atheism.

No, the answer to Islam is Islam. The fringe of Islam must be dealt with by the mainstream of Islam. And this mainstream must be encouraged and supported to come to peace with and champion secular, pluralist, liberal democracy.

The test for Islam in this regard, as for any divinity and revelation based belief system, is whether the mainstream can hold the view that its God does not want faith enforced by the sword: Does Allah have confidence in his capacity to move the minds of his creatures, can his truth evoke adherence without compulsion, or is his truth and power so feeble that it cannot compete in a market-place of beliefs?

The kind of Islam we are talking of is one that, like Christianity has done in the shadow of its religious wars, privatises faith and practice, renouncing any desire to force resolution of public issues and law by anything other than the vote of citizens, as citizens – and one which believes and teaches that Allah supports this.

I believe that in its traditions and some parts of its history, Islam has the resources to become this kind of Islam. But how do we assist, and assist mainstream Islam to become explicitly loyal to liberal democracy? How do we get the mainstream to champion and defend it against other Muslims who might seek to subvert it? Here are a few priorities for debate.

Obviously we first ensure that we are not tempted by the actions of the militants to betray our own values, not least in regard to stringent application of a non-discriminatory use of the law. Bans of the burka are a case in point.

But in defence of those values, we should also insist that mainstream Islam accepts that it is subject to intellectual challenge in a society with free speech and allows individuals the freedom to leave Islam. Violence against critics and apostates must be prohibited and sanctioned forcefully.

Liberal democracies allow faith-based schools, but all such schools should be required to integrate liberal democratic civics in the programs they run, and be licensed only with continuing compliance.

Where evidence arises that religious facilities are being abused to promote hatred or violence, our intelligence services should be tasked to gather the evidence needed for Police to excise and prosecute the militants, preferably with the support of the mainstream.

We should fund leadership development that promotes the capacity of mainstream leaders. In particular, we should promote dialogue with the mainstream on women’s rights, a touchstone issue and indicator for the liberal democratic disposition, and promote women’s leadership programs here and in developing Muslim countries.

Finally, we should have a much better funded program of media and internet programs that promote the liberal democratic worldview and experience into the homes and onto the computers and phones of Muslims across the globe.

Of course, where soft power is insufficient in the short term, we must support action to militarily contain Iran and militants groups such as Hamas, Hezbollah, al-Qaeda, al-Shabab, and Jemaah Islamiah.

But ultimately, our aim is to see global Islam build a kinder, gentler, liberal sense of itself. We see this Islam expressed in the Sufi tradition that militants are trying to destroy in Pakistan, and the Indonesian expression that Abu Bakar Bashir is trying to subvert. This kind of Islam is already practiced by millions of Muslims across the world. The challenge is how we make sure that in the internal war for the heart and soul of Islam that is being waged by militants or hardline fundamentalists from oil-rich countries, they win.

81 comments

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    • Eric says:

      07:08am | 14/09/10

      “The test for Islam in this regard, as for any divinity and revelation based belief system, is whether the mainstream can hold the view that its God does not want faith enforced by the sword…”

      That’s pretty difficult for a religion founded by a warrior-prophet, who explicitly stated on multiple occasions that its faith must be enforced by the sword.

      The problem is that mainstream Islam is by definition violent and expansionist. All Muslims are required to believe that the Koran is the literal word of Allah, immutable and irrevocable. Thus, those who don’t practice sharia law are already outside Islam, regardless of what they might call themselves.

      It’s a mistake to think Islam is like other religions. It’s a complete political system that denies secular rule and puts its own expansion as the top priority. This makes it uniquely dangerous.

      Historically, the most effective answer to militant Islam has been military opposition, and I doubt that will change.

    • Patrick says:

      12:09pm | 14/09/10

      Do you think it’s a good idea to confront a quarter of the world’s population militarily as opposed to getting them onside, when the West is having a difficult enough time as it is dealing with isolated sects?

      This claim that Islam is inherently expansionist and must be brought by the sword that does the rounds overlooks the fact that Christianity itself was expansionist and brought by the sword, notably when Constantine ‘the great’ forcibly converted the Roman Empire to Christianity, The Crusades, and the devastation of native Americans by the Spanish and later European powers in the name of christianity.

      The best way to deal with and modernise Islam is to bring it into the tent of the global community, not marginalise it. That said there are certain aspects practiced in Islamic countries that the global community can never accept, relating to things such as women’s rights.

    • Leah says:

      04:28pm | 14/09/10

      Patrick, your comparison of Islam to Christianity misses a key aspect. Islam’s holy book, the Koran, teaches this expansionist-by-the-sword idea. Christianity’s holy book, the Bible, does not. That’s not to say that in the past Christians have never behaved in contravention to the BIble, but to suggest that Muslims acting this way are acting in contravention to the Koran simply demonstrates that you don’t know what the Koran teaches. Eric’s comment was spot-on. His only mistake was in saying “mainstream Islam is by definition violent and expansionist”. It’s not. “Real” Islam is violent and expansionist, but what we refer to as “mainstream” Islam does not follow the Koran 100%, therefore isn’t really “real” Islam, just luke-warm.

    • Mark says:

      05:41pm | 14/09/10

      From the Bible Leah

      “Go up, my warriors, against the land of Merathaim and against the people of Pekod. Yes, march against Babylon, the land of rebels, a land that I will judge!  Pursue, kill, and completely destroy them, as I have commanded you,” says the LORD.  “Let the battle cry be heard in the land, a shout of great destruction”.  (Jeremiah 50:21-22 NLT)

      This was great to more from the bible , its full of this stuff.

      “Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword.  Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes.  Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes.  For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off.  The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows.  They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children.  (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)”

    • Eric says:

      06:10pm | 14/09/10

      Good point, Leah. I should refer to it as “real Islam”, not “Mainstream Islam”.

    • Raed says:

      08:47pm | 14/09/10

      Wow so many experts on the Koran, I wonder how many of you have actually read the Koran. Would anyone care to actually quote the Koran where it advocates promoting Islam by using the sword.
      I will actually quote the Koran “there is no compulsion in religion”
      So those with half an ounce of understanding would interpret that to mean that religion is a choice not one to be forced

    • Foreshadow says:

      10:45pm | 15/09/10

      As requested Raed, check out 9:5 of the Qu’ran which states:

      9:5. Then when the Sacred Months (the 1st, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun {unbelievers} wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat {the Islamic ritual prayers}), and give Zakat {alms}, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

      This occurs later in Muhammad’s life and so abrogates the “There is no compulsion in religion” passage of 2:256 which you quoted.

    • Apostate says:

      07:37am | 14/09/10

      Until Islam comes into the 21st Century, Australia should not accept Muslims into this country.  We have enough problems with Scientology and other bizarre belief systems without adding to the mix of a religion which likes to behead anyone unacceptable and accept honour killings.

    • Raed says:

      08:48pm | 14/09/10

      Do you have any understanding AT ALL of the core beliefs of Islam
      No I didnt think so

    • Seamus says:

      07:38am | 14/09/10

      My personal belief that, here in Australia, our tradition of giving everyone a fair go has been exploited by extreme Islam and it is probably too late to try and bring about change without being tagged racist extremists ourselves.

      When you see members of the Islam faith still calling for beheading and stoning to death you have to wonder.

    • James1 says:

      01:42pm | 14/09/10

      I have heard members of the Christian faith say that adulterers should be stoned to death, just like it says in the Bible.  I have heard members of the Christian faith say that, the sooner Israel kills all the Arabs the better, because the sooner Christ will come again and God will take them to heaven.  I just don’t listen to these nutjobs, because I know they are not representative.  Much like I know the kind of Muslims Eric refers to above are not representative.  To say that the extremists represent Islam is like saying that the KKK represents the views of average Americans.  It is reductionist, and offensive, and shows a real lack of knowledge of the world.

    • Lucee says:

      02:19pm | 14/09/10

      James1 - as someone who has lived in the ME I beg to differ.  Just go to many Muslim sites, including news, to enlighten yourself on reality.

    • Leah says:

      04:31pm | 14/09/10

      James, I have to say that YOUR comment shows a real lack of knowledge of the world. Christians have behaved appallingly, that’s inescapable. The difference is that those Christians are behaving in contravention to the bible. The New Testament (second half of the bible) is very clear that many of the old laws and punishments from the Old Testament (eg. stoning adulterers) are no longer applicable, so Christians suggesting they are need to take a better look at their bible. However the Muslims Eric refer to are following their Koran to a tee.

    • Raed says:

      08:50pm | 14/09/10

      Please find me a quote in the Koran that advocates stoning or the beheading of anyone.
      I see many people advocating we as Australians go and kill Innocent Afghans and Iraqi’s, but hey thats Ok
      Whilst where at it why dont we just torture them and put corrupt govts to run those countries

    • Greg says:

      09:16pm | 14/09/10

      James, maybe its time for you to learn things. Start with “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone”. Jesus was stopping a stoning.
      You must hang around strange radicals as I have never heard those type of comments come from any christian and if they did they would be against the teachings of Christ. Its the turn the other cheek religion.
      Very unlike an Imam who calls for beheadings for the smallest, perceived slight against Islam.

    • elc says:

      09:19am | 15/09/10

      Raed, I would like to believe that Islam could be a peaceful religion but when I read about the human rights abuses and religious sharia law that occurs not historically but right now, currently, in this day and age then naturally that makes ppl uncomfortable. I don’t care what is and isn’t in the Koran, what I care about is the belief system that muslims support, if that includes sharia law and the abuse of human rights in the name of religion, then that is a problem. As for the killing of innocent Afghani’s and Iraqi’s do you have statistics on deaths caused directly by Australia troops? I would also be interested in the stats of how many of those innocents were killed by the actions of their own people…

    • Jon says:

      09:31am | 15/09/10

      James1, Methinks you doth protest too much.

    • Jimmy frae Adelaide says:

      07:47am | 14/09/10

      I agree with Eric, I have myself an obscene three minute video clip of a teenage girl being stoned to death in an Islamic country by a bunch of adult men for some breach on Sharia law and, she is only put out of her misery by a young man who slams a large piece of concrete onto her head twice. I sent it to an Islamic office with a please explain. No one replied.  Jimmy

    • Austin 3:16 says:

      12:48pm | 14/09/10

      Have you ever tried to contact the Vatican re the atrocities committed by the Christian Lord’s Resistance Army in Uganda ? If not why not, why are you just picking on the Islamic extremists and ignoring the Christian ones ?

    • Naomi says:

      12:57pm | 14/09/10

      Why do you even have a video clip??

    • Sydney says:

      08:29am | 14/09/10

      Their book instructs them to hate all non-Muslims, and to seek out and kill all non-Muslims. Muslims try to tell us that Islam is a religion of peace, when it’s actually a culture of hatred and oppression.

      The west’s political correctness has allowed Islam to spread their hatred. Islam does not understand rational discussion. Look at 1,500 years of history, they spread their “religion” by the sword. Defence of democracy can only be accomplished by meeting their sword with the necessary level of force.

    • Y says:

      02:58pm | 14/09/10

      i left Islam five years ago (along with a whole lifetime of family and friends) and have yet to look back; however, what you say is completely wrong and out of line. http://quran.com/109 clearly disputes what you say, demonstrating the “live and let live"attitude of the religion according to the actual Koranic text. i could go on for pages and pages on why i left, but as a person who was born in Iraq and raised in Iran and now actively atheist, i think in the interest of healthy discussion you need to check your facts.

      regards.

    • T.Chong says:

      08:40am | 14/09/10

      Yes folks its the anti Muslim jihad week here at Punch 3 0r 4 articles already, and its only Tuesday.
      Lucky we arent influenced by the foaming at the mouth Islamophobia current in hillbilly USA, much.
      Chris, would your internet surveillance also extend to some Jewish schools and white bread christian schools in eastern sydney, where students have also been guilty of anti Arabic rants.?
      Wasnt it a POPE, (argle bargle the 4th,or some one else)  who decided his god would decide the guilty or innocent after his troops massacred all the inhabitants of a beseiged town.?
      Lucky “we” are the moral ones, not like “them ”

    • Kev Gillett says:

      10:06am | 14/09/10

      argle bargle the 4th’s decisions were a very long time ago.  Since then Christianity has evolved.  The problem we have with Islam is, it hasn’t.

    • Ryan says:

      10:28am | 14/09/10

      Still banging that old drum there Chong. Unfortunately jumping up and down and calling people whitebread foaming at the mouth hillbillies for people murdering innocent civilians in the name of Islam without a word of condemnation from Islam just won’t wash anymore. Go back to hiding under your rock waving your white flag begging for them to please not hurt you while they stone your daughter to death and rape your wife.

    • Az says:

      10:51am | 14/09/10

      Islamaphobia ? Lol !

      Islam, like any other religion is a belief system.

      Scientology is also a belief system and no less valid in its claims than Islam or Christianity.

      Not being part of or a subscriber to any orthodox belief system, am I bound by some universal law to respect it within the bounds of my own particular environment or culture ?

      No I am not.

      On what basis does any belief system legitimately claim inviolable respect or exemption from ridicule from non believers ?

    • Jon says:

      10:52am | 14/09/10

      Sorry T.Chong, Islam not going anywhere, and it has an agenda. I know it seems repetitious but that’s how this religion its works. As with most religions repartition is one of its many tactics to get and hold believers. Mantras of instructions over and over again until people start to believe it. Like the saying ‘if you tell a lie enough times people will believe it’.  We can only hope that the moderates, if they exist in large numbers can reform it, but don’t hold your breath.

    • n_dude says:

      04:47pm | 14/09/10

      Christianity went through this with the crusades (WWII notwithstanding) which was hundreds of years ago. Unfortunately Islam is going through that same evolution now and is affecting the rest of the world (not just Christians in the west). Moreover, this is also the fastest growing religion. The comments in this article are correct. I do agree that not all M uslims are fanatics, but I tend to find that they are generally fine until you bring up the question of religion and question their beliefs.

    • Baal says:

      05:32pm | 14/09/10

      The crusades were beyond horrible. Imagine if the Pope back then had nuclear capability when he ordered the crusade on the middle east. That is the difference, technology gives man kind new an inventive ways to kill, which means it only takes 200 people what it used to take a million soliders and an entire society to do. Before guns you had to be pretty determined to kill an entire an entire busload of people, these days you only need money enough for a weapon. I do not have answers but the threat from made men, be they from Iran, Afganistan Texas or Alaska is real, very real.

    • the apologist says:

      08:51am | 14/09/10

      The Islam you’re talking about and calling for is not the Islam that is propounded in the Koran.

    • James1 says:

      01:45pm | 14/09/10

      Much like the Bible, it depends which part you read and emphasise.  Jesus was actually a violent revolutionary socialist, who came not to bring us peace but a sword, and to get the rich to give all their goods to the poor, lest they be unable to enter the kingdom of God.  According to some parts of the Bible, Jesus supported stoning adulterers to death.

    • Leah says:

      04:35pm | 14/09/10

      James1, I’m not sure which Bible you’ve been reading. It was Jesus who explained to the religious leaders of the day that stoning adulterers was no longer an acceptable route to take.

      I also suggest you revise what a metaphor is (eg - the passage about bringing not peace but a sword).

    • chris says:

      07:19pm | 14/09/10

      So, Leah, Jesus running amok in the temple and overturning the tables of the money-changers; an act which, today would attract charges of criminal trespass, assault causing bodily harm, and criminal damage just for starters; that was a metaphor as well was it?

    • Greg says:

      09:26pm | 14/09/10

      Again James you show your ignorance. On the issue of giving to the poor Jesus says not to give so much that you become poor also. He said the poor will always be with us.
      Go and learn something.
      You truly belong in that old saying “The door to stupidity is never closed”.

    • Gabrielle says:

      09:00am | 14/09/10

      Brilliantly articulate and intellectual piece, Chris. Specifically, your point…

      “insist that mainstream Islam accepts that it is subject to intellectual challenge in a society with free speech and allows individuals the freedom to leave Islam. Violence against critics and apostates must be prohibited and sanctioned forcefully.”

      ...this is the fundamental challenge. When Muslims are seen as victims we rush to their aid, when they are the oppressors we cower for fear of retribution. The demands for more will never cease whilst ever one group receives both our sympathy and support when it offends and when it is attacked. This renders the system inequitable for those outside of Islam.

      A religion which promotes violence against detractors or oppression of any of its members is not a basis for any belief. The idea of any religion is about something more important than ourselves and with values to aspire to for the equity and good of all.

    • Ella says:

      09:30am | 14/09/10

      I read somewhere that there is a ban on translating the koran. Which means that most practitioners of islam learn it by rote and are relying on religious leaders for their interpretation of the text. I have often wondered if we were to translate it and make it available to all comers in a language they could understand so they could interpret it themselves we would see a splintering and softening of Islam as happened in Christianity after the printing and translation of the bible.

    • Joel says:

      12:27pm | 15/09/10

      I think you will find that the Koran is now available in a number of translations (English, Turkish, etc), moreover, many Muslims actually speak Arabic as a first or second language.  Rather unlike the Bible, before the Reformation, which was in Latin, a language only spoken by the clergy and academics since the collapse of the Roman empire.

    • Jay says:

      10:34am | 17/09/10

      Its not a ban, but a great circular argument that says because the Koran was dictated in Arabic, it is only ‘true’ in Arabic and therefore people who have read a translation have no right to criticise the true Koran - forgetting that Arabic has evolved since C6th AD.

      Another interesting point: EVERY YEAR, more books are translated into Spanish, than ALL the books translated into Arabic since the 9th century!!

    • P. Darvio says:

      09:45am | 14/09/10

      The Christian Bible advocates similar or the same murderous acts, terror, mass genocide, stoning of women, killing gays etc as the Koran. The only difference is that most so-called Christians have grown up just a bit and don’t practice true Christianity (which actually means they are not Christians).

      I agree only the Muslims can deal with their own people – but they won’t because they haven’t to date and most of them hate the West so much they will not do anything.

    • papachango says:

      12:10pm | 14/09/10

      “The only difference is that most so-called Christians have grown up just a bit and don’t practice true Christianity (which actually means they are not Christians).”

      Or you could argue that Christianity has reformed, since the Dark Ages, Spanish Inquisition, crusading variety no longer exists anywhere in the world, and no-one takes the Bible literally anymore, apart from a very few nutters is the Deep South.

      It’s reformed because ever since the Reformation, its power over the state has been severely curtailed, so they can’t go around indoctrinating people anymore, at least not without serious competition from rationalists. Whereas Islam in most places can indoctrinate away, no debate is allowed and large numbers take the koran literally.

    • Greg says:

      09:33pm | 14/09/10

      Wrong Darvio, go and read a bible. It is against all those things. If you must post don’t do it in ignorance.
      And yes Ive read the old and new testaments and the Koran. You should to. Then you may have an idea of how stupid you are and why Christianity is of the new testament, Judaism of the old.

    • Mike T says:

      10:46am | 14/09/10

      Great article. I think this is what non-muslims inately want to see. That being some of the moderate Islamics (the majority) to stand up and condem those citing violence in the name of islam. The “Islam dosent teach that” excuse is not enough, neither is distancing themselves from the debate. We in no way blame the moderate/peacful Muslims, however, we want to see them stand up and announce that these people are not worthy of following Islam. We want them to stand with those that detest this type of violence, not on the side lines.

    • Margot says:

      09:56pm | 14/09/10

      Many moderates speak out against these crazies.Are you even aware of the tvs show Salam cafe?Of corse not because our voices are either not as loud as the extremists(because we don’t kick and scream like them) or we are willfully ignored by the media because everybody is happy to focus their fears towards us.Many of us are just too tired of this to bother any more. We are resigned to the knowledge that everybody has their time to be hated and to struggle,it"s currently ours now.All I can say is that anyone who thinks Islam is a really serious threat to this world is a fool.What would be the best(although a pipe dream) would be if some high ups from saudi arabia came out and basically excommunicated these kinds of people,I’m sure that would be the biggest deterrent I can think of.

    • William says:

      05:38am | 15/09/10

      Mike T,

      If you lived in a Muslim country you would see this on a daily basis.  Australian media aren’t interested in portraying Muslims as decent people…where’s the controversy in that?

    • stephen says:

      10:53am | 14/09/10

      Islam is peaceful because moderate muslims have made it so.
      The hard-liners are just as much their enemies as they are ours.
      What will change various perceptions is happening now in Iran : there, a democratic reform movememt is trying to replace the recalcatrent President.
      If the West doesn’t panic, something like this may succeed in other nations too.

    • Dave - Melton says:

      11:09am | 14/09/10

      My goodness.. This whole Islam topic is getting just a little too much. Eric – NO mate they did not have a warrior prophet stop reading rubbish of the net generated by right winged hate groups.
      I have travelled the middle east since the 70’s (yes I work in oil) and I’ll tell you one thing I have never come across any fringe fundamental Muslims. I have seen and have been hosted by very religious Muslims but not for a minute have a been treated like an infidel. When media perpetuates ignorant comments made by Muslims around the world and spins it to be a general Islamic view.. its blood boiling but I guess in every era we anglo’s need to hate someone, so Muslims be prepared because I think Islamic apartheid is about to commence.

      Oh when we quote something from the Koran and use it against them.. please don’t make us Christians look stupid, because they can re-quote from our holy trinity (funny enough its nearly the same).. So those that do quote the Koran to insight fury, please read the Bible and Tora as well..

    • Stephen Fitzpatrick says:

      12:05pm | 14/09/10

      Excellent comment Dave.

      I myself just recently attended an Eid ul-Fitr (end of Ramadan) luncheon at the home of a prominent member of the Indonesian community. Not only was I not stoned even once, but I was welcomed warmly and offered plently of delicioius food to eat, even thought I’m not muslim and I hadn’t fasted.

      Ella, if your tempted to start a comment with “I read somewhere”, that’s a sign that you should do some research before you comment, becuase you are wrong. If fact, the translation of the Koran is a major issue with the internal battle in Islam that Chris Gardiner is talking about, as currently it is hardline fundamentalists in Saudi Arabia that are putting the most effort into translating and printing the Koran, along with their own commentary.

      The problem currently is that on one hand we want moderate Islam to succeed, but every time we go to the petrol pump we put money in the hands of the Saudi’s. Make no mistake, while the Saudi regime may be an “ally” of the US, their Wahabbi sect is the very worst brand of Islam, yet our addiction to oil fuels it.

      It’s time for the West to get it’s story stright, get off the oil, stop funding the fudies and give moderate Muslims a chance.

    • James1 says:

      01:51pm | 14/09/10

      I attended an Eid al-Fitr feast last night as well.  Wonderful company.  My atheist self, and our unbaptised daughter, were very, very welcome.  I imagine that most people bagging all Muslims as being all the same have no Muslim friends, otherwise they would realise that their approach is like saying that all Christian believe in a literal interpretation of the Bible, and thus support stoning as a punishment for adultery.

    • Ella says:

      03:54pm | 14/09/10

      Apologies Stephen, I should have referenced my source. I don’t always remember the titles and authors of books I have read off the top of my head and I was being lazy and not looking it up.

      Ali, Tariq (2003) The clash of fundamentalisms : crusades, Jihads and modernity (Publisher Verso) specifically talks about the lack of translation particularly in reference to the Pakistan situation. To clarify - he does not saying that there are no translations anywhere, obviously there are just that for some forms of Islam translations don’t count.

      For those looking for an internet reference for this, see http://www.witness-pioneer.org/vil/Articles/quran/ieb_quran_chittick.html which states that
      ” For Muslims, the divine Word assumed a specific, Arabic form, and that form is as essential as the meaning that the words convey. Hence only the Arabic Koran is the Koran, and translations are simply interpretations.”

    • Yasser says:

      08:42pm | 14/09/10

      Dave and his Apologist clown friends have no clue. I am an Egyptian Coptic Christian who’s parents escaped from the middle east in 1970 to seek a life in Australia because of the unrelenting persecution experienced in Egypt (which has existed from ancient times and has only intensified in the few decades). These people are not your friends, they are only bidding their time and smiling behind your backs.

      You disgrace this country, the religion of your forebears, your civilisation, common sense and the hundreds of thousands of slaughtered Christians and others killed in the name of Islam over the centuries.

    • papachango says:

      12:00pm | 14/09/10

      Good points raised and I agree with all of them.

      One thing I’d add, which is what you’re hinting at but you don’t come out and say explicitly, is that Islam badly needs to have its own Reformation. Christianity went through this in the sixteenth century; before that they were just as bloodthirsty, controlling and funadmentalist (see the Crusades), afterwards came the englightenment, the renaissance, the birth of liberal democracy, and general Western prosperity. ALL of these can be linked back to separation of church and state.

      Islam has yet to go though this in most places, which is why most Islamic Republics are theocratic backwaters with severely limited freedoms and widespread indoctrination. There are notable exceptions such as Turkey, most provinces of Malaysia and Indonesia, where Islam functions like Christianity as part of a secular state, and people and women in particular have levelks of freedom siumilar to the West.

      So Islam can reform, but it needs to come from within. Irshad Manji is at least one brave, outspoken practicing Muslim, who loudly advocates these views. Read her book ‘The Trouble with Islam’.  For that, and for being a lesbian, she needs security guards, but if there are more like her things may change.

    • Michael says:

      01:31pm | 14/09/10

      The great irony of Islam is that their present stance of anti-Western feeling was largely caused by the West when the Crusades blew through Palestine from around 1099 - 1200 A.D. or so.

      Prior to that, Muslim nations in the Holy Land and surrounds were actually more advanced medically, academically, and philosophically than Christian Europe - they’d retained the writings of all the great philosophers out of Greece and Rome, which had influenced their interpretations of the Koran.  The accounts from the time record unequivocally that the Muslims in control of Palestine were tolerant of Jewish and Christian faiths alike; Jerusalem was a relatively peaceful city.

      It was only after a solid two hundred years of Christians crusading out of Europe through Palestine that this approach to the West changed.  Sala-ah-Dinh, more commonly known as ‘Saladin’, who was the first of the ‘great’ Islamic generals to kick out the Crusaders from Palestine, was actually a pretty decent, chivalrous man, respected even by the Crusaders themselves even though he was their “infidel enemy”.

      But by the time of the last Crusade, Saladin was gone, and in his place were rulers like Babyars, who, after putting up with Christian atrocities and conquest for two hundred years, decided it was time for No More Mr. Nice Guy.

      The crusaders actually succeeded in creating the very enemy they’d long said was in Palestine and which for the most part wasn’t: an implacable Muslim opponent who had no regard for Christian life or tolerance.  To make matters worse, Babyars was in charge when the crusader kingdoms finally collapsed and the Muslims reasserted control over Jerusalem.  Since that time, there’s been a strong element of anti-West sentiment in Islam.

      Which is not to adopt the black armband view of history, but only to say that once more in the West we are more than capable of putting our foot in it repeatedly.

    • papachango says:

      03:59pm | 14/09/10

      Michael -

      Yes the Christian Westerners were barbaric in the Crusades (actually both sides had their share of atrocities, even if Saladin was famously fair play), but that was NINE CENTURIES AGO. Islam seriously needs to get over it. I mean honestly, my ancestors were Scottish and were oppressed by the English only four centuries ago, but I don’t particularly want to blow up London.

      Oh, and the famous the tolerance for ‘people of the book’ (Christians, Zoroastrians and Jews) is viewed through largely rose-coloured glasses. They were only ‘tolerated’ provided they agreed to submit to the supremacy of islamic law, paid their dhimmi taxes and accepted that their life was worth less than that of a Muslim (one-sixteenth in the case of a Zoroastrian)

    • Sean says:

      04:50pm | 15/09/10

      Michael
      You do realise that the Crusades started as an attempt to retake formerly Christian territories, some held by the Byzantium Empire. It also was in response to persecution of Christian pilgrims to the Holy Land.

      Also continual references comparing medieval Christianity to modern Islam are specious. Christianity went through its own Reformation and modernisation, just like Islam needs too.

    • impossible says:

      01:19pm | 14/09/10

      I wish people would stop comparing Christianity to Islam.  They are nothing alike.  Any similarities are so far in the past they are not worth mentioning.  I have researched this topic and Chris Gardiner’s post is spot on.  Political correctness in the west has allowed Islam to grow and fester like a boil and no one has the foresight to surgically remove it.  Generations to come in the future will wonder why we let this happen.

    • Raed says:

      09:04pm | 14/09/10

      Your research must have stopped in kindergarden with the Alphabet.
      To quote the koran “mary the mother of Christ the holiest women of all time”
      “Christ being the prophet of God” “born of the virgin Mary’
      The koran mentions all the same prophets that are mentioned in the Torah as well as the Bible.
      Maybe you should read the gospel of Barnabas or the gospel of Judas or even the Gospel of Magdeline that all said that Christ was only a prophet of God and that there is only one God and one other prophet will follow after Christ. Hmmmm sound familiar

    • impossible says:

      04:14pm | 15/09/10

      Raed, maybe I didn’t spell it out for you clearly enough.  What I was trying to articulate is Christianity (by and large) with the exception of certain people of the priesthood, is a very peaceful loving religion, whereas Islam is ruled by the sword.  It’s when people try to say Christianity in the not too distant past is as violent as Islam is just being ridiculous to say the least.  BTW I am of no religious persuasion.

    • Jay says:

      02:58pm | 14/09/10

      Whilst we rely on scripts written between 1400-2000 years ago which have been interpretated and skewed to support a point of view. How can we ever believe we can move forward? It is time that the World Govt’s fess up and tell us the truth about their encounters with alien beings.This will be the wake up call to many to show them that there is something else out there and perhaps allow us to start moving forward as a species. We are ready to accept the truth however terrible it may be, but it may provide the impetus for a new enlightenment.

    • Jimmy frae Adelaide says:

      03:10pm | 14/09/10

      Well Austin3:16 I have never heard of the Christian Lord’s Resistance Army, and being a Scottish Protestant I wouldn’t even dream of writing to the Vatican.
      Naomi the clip was sent to me by a friend in Scotland last saturday and having spent twenty two years with Scotland’s finest Regiment the ‘Argyll & Sutherland Hghlanders’ and having served in Egypt, Malaysia, Aden and Oman I have a pretty shrewd idea what Muslims do and don’t do.

    • chris says:

      07:34pm | 14/09/10

      Well good on you, Jimmy. So you know all about Muslims. Is that Shiite, Sunni? From the middle east? Indonesia? The Balkans? How would you like it if someone assumed they had a “shrewd” idea about what you do, based on say, sectarian violence in Northern Ireland?

    • Dave says:

      05:51pm | 14/09/10

      Essentially Chris is saying that Islam should become more like us. Religion is private and leave the politics and law to the will of the people. Good idea. The problem is that it is exactly what most of Islam and certainly the Islamists are resisting.

    • Truther says:

      09:07pm | 14/09/10

      Who held the lines from Islamic aggression and expansion? Spanish, Portuguese, French and the Greeks. If it wasn’t for the crusades in Spain, France and against Islamic aggression in the east all you people most likely have be all Muslims.  Have some respect for the knights and Christian soldiers that died against Islamic aggression against Christianity and European lands. Where were the atheist soldiers fighting against Islam? Some of you people have a deluded view on history and logic. You all have been infected by the liberal disease called communism which serves Zionist interests. Zionism is now what occupies the west and morally degrades it. Remember it is in the interest of Zionism to keep the west against the east for their benefit. Thats why the western military is in Iraq, Aftgan, and Iran serving Zionist interests, while western politicians take the money and turn a blind eye like a huge gang, mafia infected with with corruption,

    • Raed says:

      09:10pm | 14/09/10

      The Christian crusades over the past 10 years just killed a few hundred thousand arabs in Iraq and the same Christian Crusades are killing just as many Afghans as we speak right now.
      We torture these people,we imprison them with no charge, we rape and pillage there women and families.
      But I dont see the Christian world in outrage about the killing of innocent Muslims

    • Markus says:

      09:16am | 15/09/10

      From the reports I have seen the vast majority of civilian deaths in Afghanistan have been caused by Taliban and other Afghan forces.

      And rape and pillage there(sic) women? Seriously? Do you have anything at all to back up that accusation?

    • NESLIHAN KUROSAWA says:

      03:07am | 15/09/10

      Hi there,
      Looking back at the history of most cultures, there has been moments that one special group of people were targeted because of their cultural heritage or the color of their skin.  And if you happen ask for my personal view, it is nothing new and it will go on just the same as long as our world is turning.  Unless, certain portion of our society, we call “the moderates”  will express their personal opinions, it might not make any visible signs of difference in the very beginning.  However, that does not mean that we should not even try to change our preconceived ideas about other cultures.  I am totally against any political or religious agendas & messages of hatred, which in turn, will only tend to add fuel to fire.  To this day, I am very amazed of the very fact that “why most people are fascinated with idea of war and fighting”.  This can only make things worse, because of the fact that messages of hatred and intolerance can divide a nation and our world we live in.  Just like Dave-Melton talked about his own story and experience that he was not treated any differently, may be he could be just one of the lucky ones.  Our perception of the world differs greatly across our general population.  This is due to the fact we have had minimal experience in other people’s shoes and most importantly everyone has had their own personal experiences when it comes to the understanding of other cultures and belief systems.  My question of the day to you is that, “Violence against violence, is it really working”??  To me, it is also such a waste of time and energy anyway. Only when when we educate ourselves and learn about our cultures and their life styles, we have power over the mixed messages of hatred & propaganda.  Instead of going to war for any reason, I would much rather sit down and talk about the reasons “why most people behave the way, they do in their everyday lives”?  When we start asking the actual questions,  only then we might be able to have the answers we have been searching for.  Somehow, in this process, we will hopefully try and discover a middle ground most people can agree on.  Best regards to your editors.

    • Greg says:

      09:04pm | 15/09/10

      I agree with most of what you say but for one. How do you deal with violent people? If we had said no were not fighting to Hitler would have that stopped his violence? Of course not, ask the Norwegians. They hardly put up a fight but suffered. Australia has never started a war but we must be prepared to fight aggressors. The risk of not meeting violence is surrendering all you hold dear. Mr Obama claims the USA is not at war with Islam and ignores they have been fighting them for over 40 years, Islam has openly (through Osama Bin Laden and others) declared war on the west. Just look at the church and flag burnings that occur regularly. Where are these moderate Muslims to stop it? As I think it was Netinyah(?) said ” If Muslims put down their guns the fighting will stop tomorrow, If Israel puts down its guns there will be no Israel tomorrow”. It was MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction) that stopped the cold war becoming hot. The threat of retaliation.
      The west has learned the futility of war at a great cost to us. So has Islam, they now invade by stealth. As one of there leaders (sorry cant bring his name to mind right now) said in 1971 ” We will conquer the west through the wombs of our women”. They are at war with us whether we like it or not.
      Violence against violence? How do you propose we protect our world if we do not fight back.

    • James1 says:

      06:16pm | 21/09/10

      You treat Muslims as though they all speak with one voice, and have the gall to call me stupid?  You need to take a long hard look at yourself.  You know, I once heard a Christian say that adulterers should be stoned to death.  Can’t recall the name, but it is proof that all Christians are evil…

      That is exactly equivalent to your argument Greg, in all its stupidity.

    • Youdy beaudy says:

      06:04am | 15/09/10

      Too much Religion and not enough truth. As a person who keeps his beliefs to himself as one should ,and as an Australian, I find it rather contemptuous that Religions of Militant types are allowed to pervert our culture. I am sick of reading about religions, in particular those religions who are pushing their own barrow with the hope of converting others to their sides.

      I see that the constant Jostling of Religions for some Majority position is an insult to those who are more open and steady in regard to beliefs, such as the Athiests and Agnostics in the communities. Where is their voice and where is it heard, where is their right represented!.

      I think that Religion is OK and gives comfort to many usually at the time of their Deaths. It is Death and the Misunderstanding of Death that is the core of Beliefs that teach fear and practice persecution. We don’t want this sort of behaviour in Australia and we should now be doing something about it.

      The false doctrines that somehow these Priestly Zealots can qualify as the mouth pieces of of God. Religions have grown very well on the backs of the ignorant and poor. It still happens today. People are still Ignorant and Poor and unfortunate if they throw their Souls away to these Despots of Religion. They have no courage to stand on their own feet.

      Australia is a country which has Religion. People believe in a God but most of us leave it open and therefore are not affected by the Moronic tones of religion. Islam and Christianity have nothing to do with God. They are Religions that actually believe their own bullshit. They may seem very nice to the uninitiated but they have got away with teaching lies for many hundreds of years and have done nothing to advance civilization. It has been put that Religions have put Human knowledge back by 2000 years.

      Now, there are many people I know who are Muslim and Christian and they are seemingly very nice people but In my life I know that in most cases once you move the facade then there is not much left except the pretending of faith.

      When the God of Death comes to us that is the time when people will find out whether there is such an Animal as God and whether there is such a place called Paradise. It seems to me that we live in a Paradise already but we are not seeing it in that light. To do the Right thing by some God or the other one would think logically that by making our Earthly Home a Paradise as was intended, then we may qualify to speak about other concepts of paradise. But as it was said in the Bible, “There are none so blind as they who cannot see”. Maybe we could start work on that one.

    • elc says:

      11:40am | 15/09/10

      There is such a thing as militant agnostics and atheists, who push their own personal belief agenda (which appears to me to be similar to their own personal brand of religion) and rabidly attack anybody who believes differently, being non religious has almost become a religion in itself for some ppl constantly claiming how they have and know all the answers and those who follow religion therefore must be fools. Religious and non religious folk are all around pushing their own belief system, I don’t think it is something purely unique to those from organized religion at all.

    • Markus says:

      12:17pm | 15/09/10

      elc, name one act of violence or terror that has been carried out in the name of atheism.

    • elc says:

      02:45pm | 15/09/10

      Markus perhaps I wasn’t clear, when I say that there are some ppl in existence who are militant agnostic and atheists (and I am not referring to anyone specifically when I say that) who can sometimes rabidly attack anyone who believes differently I am not referring at all to terrorism and violence but I am referring to those who use aggressive verbal abuse and attacks on others due to their beliefs. As I have acknowledged this can come from anyone, agnostic, atheist and religious. The notion of one person being superior over another simply because of their beliefs is something I disagree with. The point I was making is that belittling others for their beliefs is not something exclusive to those in organized religion at all.

      If you are suggesting religion might be a negative thing because of historical acts of violence and terror committed in the name of a religion, I don’t believe that makes ppl who follow that religion necessarily bad unless of course they support and encourage such acts of violence and terror.

    • mr T says:

      09:39am | 15/09/10

      @ Youdy Beuaty… 

      Amen to that..

    • Jeremy says:

      09:51am | 15/09/10

      I wonder if anybody actually read this? Its about how Muslims can help fix their appearence in the eyes of westerners. Now the question beg, do Muslims need to change their ways (even just the extreme one), or do we need to change our perspectives?

      Honestly, I think a little from both sides is nessercery. Islam, cant change Islam, because they are Islam, but they can show us the Logical reasoning behind what they do, bring their ideas up with modern values (Womans rights, Education, etc), and as westerners, we can live and learn, I have some Muslim friends (I do not pretend to know all the detail on their faith, I was bought up christian, and chose not to follow any longer, in my early teens), and they are some of the nicest people I have ever met. They have their beleif, they dont push it on me, I am aware of it, and thats that.  I think all Faiths would be better off being like these few friends of mine.

      How many billions of people have died in the name of a deity?

    • Markus says:

      11:02am | 15/09/10

      If the final aim is mutual respect and co-existence then yes, change on both sides is necessary.
      But it is not that simple. There are fundamental differences in our cultures and ideals, many stemming from the secular vs sharia cultural gap.

      Which fundamental ideals are you willing to compromise to ensure Western and Middle Eastern Muslim cultures can co-exist? (I specify ME as Indonesia and Turkey already have achieved relatively successful co-existence)

      Equal rights for all genders and races? Capital punishment? Freedom of speech and religion? Right to a fair trial?
      It is tough to even say the laws enforced in these countries are not ‘real’ Islam as there is no separation of church and state.
      Sadly until this separation occurs,  I do not believe any attempts at bridging the gap will be particularly successful.

    • Jeremy says:

      12:44pm | 15/09/10

      @ Markus: “It is tough to even say the laws enforced in these countries are not ‘real’ Islam as there is no separation of church and state.”

      That is true, and until there is seperation in these (even in this country, I am sure Gillard has some religion driving her descions, and Abbot is completely religeon driven IMO), then the Laws will be driven by religous views.

      I beleive that everyone deserves equal rights, regardless, of gender or race.
      Freedom of Speech, and Ideals is essential to growth of society.  But when people die over a beleif it becomes too much I think.

    • Justin says:

      06:54pm | 15/09/10

      Th problem isn’t Christianity or Islam - but people. People are always going to find some way to validate their personal beliefs - whether through a 2000 year book or what their parents have been telling them since birth. Not sure if you guys know this but you all worship the same god - why you engage in petty divisive politics like Christianity vs Islam is beyond me. Rather you should look at the core beliefs of each faith and celebrate the similarities, not the differences. Lets face it - there are awful human beings in the world (whether they are muslim, christian, atheist or what have you) and they will try to use religion as a weapon to further their own hateful agendas. Ignorance is the enemy here. Religion (in my mind) is simply a means to promote peace, tolerance and understanding.

    • VillarrealNeva19 says:

      01:05pm | 22/08/11

      That is understandable that money makes people free. But what to do when someone has no money? The one way only is to try to get the business loans or just term loan.

 

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