Crying wolf on racism

Rosemary says:

07:05am | 07/01/10

Weren’t there at least five stabbings on or around the same day in Melbourne? (four in Richmond at one incident and another in Fitzroy are clear in my mind). Regardless, the fact Nitin Garg died is abhorrent.

However, Garg was walking through parkland when he was attacked. Cruickshank park, which borders West Footscray and Yaraville, is a vibrant, very pretty park during the day. Used for walking dogs and kids it is also a thoroughfare to reach Somerville Road or Williamstown Road on foot. (I lived around here for 12 months until January last year).

Cruickshank Park at night is a very scary place. It is beyond dark - a dark that actually seems like a vacuum. I would only ride my bike through it after hours and then at high speed hoping to come out the other end unscathed.

Maybe we’ll never know who was desperately lurking in the shadows that night, but in Garg’s honour perhaps some better lighting could be installed to ensure no one else comes to harm, allowing those of us who keep irregular hours to go about our business too.

Biff says:

07:13am | 07/01/10

The racism button, once pushed, will guarantee action from our politicians.

Super D says:

07:29am | 07/01/10

If Indians claiming racism is what it takes to get our incompetent state ALP governments to be genuinely tough on crime rather than just claiming to be then thats fine by me.  I don’t see how we will actually reduce the number of street assaults without more police on the streets and some tough new laws - ideally some sort of corporal punishment and public humiliation - being put in place.  For too long we have allowed social engineers and do gooders to portray the perpetrators of violent street assaults as victims of their circumstances.  The time for more iron fist and less velvet glove is upon us.

Dennis says:

07:37am | 07/01/10

Well put Paul, We Australians are well known for the low level racism as you put it and in the vast majority of cases it is harmless and said in jest. However, it can be taken out of the context in whch it was meant and used by those who wish to bring us into disrepute.

A case in point is the rediculous criticism of the KFC Cricket advertisement where a young man offers a group of West Indian supporters a bowl of the KFC product in order to take the heat off himself as presumably the Australian cricketers are under the pump by the WI cricket team. The detractors say it is racist ........ they just don’t get it.

Pete from Sydney says:

07:43am | 07/01/10

‘viewed with utter repugnance by sensible people’....isn’t that the point Paul, racism generally doesn’t involve sensible people…you’re sort of stating the bleeding obvious….

Also it does seem a little odd doncha think that of the “millions of people from a huge range of backgrounds live and work” Indians seem to be coping the brunt of these attacks? Not trying to fuel the rascist fire but something is rotten in the city of Melbourne….

Dave says:

07:58am | 07/01/10

Out of curiosity….during that same period how many non-Indian students were assaulted/attacked in Melbourne?

Who are the people perpetrating these crimes?

Or is that too racist to ask?

Dan says:

08:20am | 07/01/10

Yesterday on ABC Melbourne the individual being interviewed said Indian’s in Melbourne are 4 times more likely to be victims of crime.  If the stats are true - you can’t argue with their point.

Toby says:

08:36am | 07/01/10

Excellent article Paul.

Jamers Hunter says:

08:47am | 07/01/10

calling every attack upon a person from a minority group racist is surely a way to engender racism. the unnecessary calling wolf of course as the classic story goes desentizes people to the events os that when a truly racist problem arrises it will not be acted upon with alacrity.
all groups in our society “sufer” racial slurs from some other group. my grandparents were all scots and the number of jokes about the tightfistedness of the scots are boundless. some greekes and italians have “suffered ” similarly. Cant recal any of them screaming racist.

Carl Palmer says:

09:09am | 07/01/10

Paul, breath of fresh air - agree with your article. Too often this is thrown up as the reason when in reality it is not. Yes there is a murderer out there and like every other unfortunate crime of this nature, the culprit must be brought to justice.

An observation - if what Rosemary says: 08:05am | 07/01/10 is correct – and I have no reason to doubt her, then why would anyone be walking thru Cruickshank Park which as Rosemary states “at night is a very scary place. It is beyond dark - a dark that actually seems like a vacuum”? I recon I can defend myself, but I’d think twice about walking thru that park at night. In this particular case, did Nitin Garg know that there are places you just don’t go at night? Do migrants know that there are places you just don’t go to? If instead of Nitin Garg it was me who took that fateful walk, would I have suffered the same outcome? In all probability yes given that it was so “dark that actually seems like a vacuum”. As I said, it is an observation.

Yesterday I was listening to a Indian journalist carrying on hysterically about some comments made by Simon Crean saying that it was racial this that and the other. These frenzy outbursts do not help and only inflame the situation. I think Mr Crean was pretty much saying what you have stated in this article.

I do feel for Nitin Garg’s family (and any other family that have this experience) and I can’t imagine what they are going thru, all I can say is that I truly hope that the perpetrator is found and confronted with the full force of the law. I also hope that the Judge throws the book at that person and the maximum penalty is applied.

Shama says:

09:22am | 07/01/10

If this is not racism and there were five stabbings in a day then Melbourne has a serious problem!!  And no one seems to be addressing it.

Also it doesn’t help at all for the police to keep saying there is no racism and almost having a “run along now, nothing to see here” attitude. Not all cases are due to racism but surely there is something to what is now a pattern *over a year* - and it is not simply slurs but quite violent and now fatal.  It doesn’t help with press coverage elsewhere either and just reinforces that Keystone Cops feeling (and I don’t mean just in India).

persephone says:

09:22am | 07/01/10

The stats show that Victoria is the safest state in the country, and that the rate of crimes against people here are falling, so there’ s obviously little wrong with what the police are doing (although, also obviously, they could always be doing more).

There is no evidence that attacks on Indian students are racist in nature but are more to do with their employment in high risk occupations (which also tend to mean that some of them are on the streets late at night).

So there may be more attacks on Indians, but in situations where a high number of attacks happen anyway (e.g. convenience stores, taxi drivers).

Q.E.D. says:

09:53am | 07/01/10

All this carry-on about racisim is surely distracting the police from pursuing the murderer/s?!

When I lived in Europe, I made sure I knew where was safe and where was dangerous.

Isn’t it India that always cries ‘racist’ when its cricketing elite are criticised?

This is a silly knee-jerk reaction.

Shama says:

10:17am | 07/01/10

Persephone, Miranda Devine’s article states that the low crime stats for Victoria were fudged.

http://www.smh.com.au/opinion/politics/feelgood-sops-from-politicians-are-no-help-in-healing-a-mothers-heartbreak-20100106-lu82.html

AdamC says:

10:20am | 07/01/10

I have two observations about this issue. First, it annoys me that Australians are so prepared to allow themselves to be smeared as racists. We aren’t. Indeed, Australia has one of the most (if not the most) genuinely diverse and tolerant societies on earth. It infuriates me when rabble-rousing Indian ‘journalists’ and politicians inaccurately project the ethnic tensions and violence which exist in their own country onto us. It infuriates me more when Australian leaders like Julia Gillard meekly kowtow to the same sentiment.   

Second, notwithstanding the above, it is foolish to imagine that no ethnic tensions exist in parts of Melbourne where the ‘Indian revolution’ (for desperate want of a better term) has radically changed the ethnic composition of the area in a short space of time. Whether or not particular crimes are motivated by racism, the general relations among different ethnic groups are bound to become strained in such circumstances. I argue that it is imperative that new migrants be encouraged to settle throughout the whole of our cities, rather than create concentrated enclaves abutting other incumbent enclaves.

Criminologist says:

10:21am | 07/01/10

Police don’t pay particular attention to claims of racism, they try and find the killer first and last.

nic says:

10:48am | 07/01/10

It’s a pity that Australia and ‘Australians;’ are bearing the shame of such tragedies. I would love to see the data as to who, statistically is involved in perpetrating such crimes.

Garry says:

10:54am | 07/01/10

Mud sticks, we have been called Racists by more than a few nations now, America being the latest. We should therefore look at ourselves seriously and decide true or not, or work to reverse the perception others have. As a person who is ‘ethnic’ and not born of Australia I have had my fair share of comments I consider being racist to humour. It is the manner in which it is said that I understand - the rest of the world may not.

In this case, I would ask, how many nations around the world are not being called racist despite the fact non locals are beaten, robbed, stabbed, or killed. Are Indian’s the only people being attacked.

As I said our problem is that many people have previously called us racist and therefore mud is sticking. We need to prove we are not.

Simple, ‘we are not’ or ‘you don’t like it leave’ wont be enough.

Q.E.D. says:

11:06am | 07/01/10

@ Criminologist says:11:21am | 07/01/10

I’m sure that’s the case. But I also expect the police bureaucrats are working overtime, and that can’t be good for the police force.

Ben says:

11:34am | 07/01/10

Good points Adam C.
The Indian Government’s travel advisory also alludes to another element of this story. To paraphrase, they refer to the generally positive of Indian students enrolled at “universities and other reputable institutions”. We cannot the ignore the fact that many of the Indian students feeling under threat are less affluent, from poorer regions of India and enrolled in ‘colleges’ and ‘courses’ which most Australian parents would view as not being worth the paper they are written on.
These ‘courses’ are marketed in India and the students once they reach Australia find themselves in a tortuous cyle where they have to work in order to fund studies which in many cases lead to a dead end.
The majority also appear to young men who are tasting ‘freedom’ from not only their parental but also their cultural structures.

Barry says:

11:43am | 07/01/10

i have lived above a taxi rank for a number of years in downtown Melbourne.  The racial abuse and threats of violence copped by predominantly Indian cab drivers is unbelieveable and getting worse every year.  Liquored up young men are the worst offenders.  There is nothing ‘low level’ about this.  Australia has a racism problem within a small group of bogan ignoramuses, it is proved to me almost every night of the week.

Matt says:

12:13pm | 07/01/10

Who cares if it was racially motivated or motivated by greed? Nitin still ended up dead.

Katie says:

12:22pm | 07/01/10

Have to confess, Paul, I’ve been totally flummoxed about this whole thing.  The murder - by all accounts - was horrific.  And a terrible tragedy for the guy’s family.  Just terrible.  But since when has an observation of one constituted a trend?  If we had a series of ten murders on one racial group (or even 3 or 4) - sure.  And if there was a note with racial slurs accompanying the body.  I’d totally get that.  But to say that this one murder was racially motivated?  On what evidence.  And to make this into a diplomatic/trade incident between two countries?  What the phuck?  Are we warning all grandparents to be careful following that other horrific crime in Carnegie?  Of course not.  They have caught the alleged offender.  But even if they hadn’t,  using the same logic as used in this crime, we should be.  The whole things ridiculous.

For me, and please note that I’m not a criminal forensic pathologist, the nature of the injuries suggests that this was a very personal crime and that the perp was known to the victim.  That doesn’t mean that racism doesn’t exist but making this the crime devalues the actual crime and diminishes the personal pain of the family in losing a much loved son, brother, nephew, cousin and friend.

Just my opinion.

Derek says:

01:10pm | 07/01/10

I really think Gautam Gupta has a lot to answer for in this situation.  Building relations between the Indian communtiy and Australian community is obviously not his strength.  He has caused undue negative debate.  His experience is highglighted by his belief in the ‘any publicity is good publiciity’.  The Indian Students’ Association would be well advised to find themselves a new leader.

Wombat says:

01:47pm | 07/01/10

Dan, Persephone, Shama: we live in the age of the fudged statistic. You should not believe any statistic unless you can verify every piece of data and every calculation used in its production or you have complete faith in the competence and integrity of the producers of the statistic.
Research has shown that in 95% of instances where statistics are quoted the intention is to mislead, often by using unreliable statistics as supposed proof of a point that the speaker or writer wishes to make. Further research has shown that 100% of what Miranda Devine writes is crap.
Some Indian politicians are seizing the opportunity to use such tragedies as this to benefit themselves. Just think of it: politicians using racism (or claims of it) to win votes! They are pursuing a foreign policy (through aggressive statements about foreigners, travel warnings, etc) that is designed to benefit themselves rather than the people they represent.
Some of their media is complicit in this.
It could never happen in Australia, could it?

BB says:

01:50pm | 07/01/10

Dan

Actually you can argue with that point. They may well be four times more likely to be victims of crime. But that gives no explanation of why. Correlation does not imply causation.

Maybe it’s because a high proportion are students/shift workers/without transportation so are more likely to be walking out alone at night? Maybe they feel safer or are unaware of dangers so take more risks?

Maybe it is that the attacks are racially motivated. But the point of the article, I think, was to not automatically assume that without question.

Eric says:

01:52pm | 07/01/10

Steve of Cornubia, it is possible that your neighbour was simply responding to your attitude - which, from your posts, appears to me likely to attract such attention.

Naresh says:

02:08pm | 07/01/10

Im originally from India, I’ve lived in Australia for the 13 yrs as a citizen. Used to live in Melbourne, I’ve been called names, cigarette buds flicked at me, even spat at for being Indian. Since have moved to Sydney, been here for the past 7 yrs and havent come across a single instance of racial abuse and I live in the Shire.
Melbourne certainly has a problem, could be due to the large amount of Indian students there but saying there is no racial problem isnt helping anyone.

milly says:

02:28pm | 07/01/10

Australia is a very racist country. They fully think that they are the best conuntry in the world, but without migrants and other conuntries behind Oz, you wouldn’t stand.  Indian students, go study elsewhere the the Vic GOV will feel the pinch in its economy.  take all migrants out of Oz and leave the lazzy bastards rednecks to sink.

get a grip aussies.

cats says:

02:31pm | 07/01/10

@Steve of Cornubia
These kinds of yobs that you’re talking about live everywhere, in every country. Some people can be very territorial and irrational. I hope you’re not trying to suggest that only Australia has this problem. There are many in England too. Just look at how they behave at Football games.

Cuppa says:

02:34pm | 07/01/10

What evidence is there that this crime was racially motivated?A young man was walking through a dangerous park at night and was attacked.Personally i cant see how race is a factor.And being one of the most racist countries in the world, that believes in a major class system(were lower classes are treated like vermin), India shouldnt be throwing the rascist card around without solid fact.

Shama says:

02:39pm | 07/01/10

Naresh, I haven’t been to Melbourne but agree re Sydney - also lived in Perth (!!) and it was fine.

I think the general population mix is not widely different between Syd and Melb but am curious as to why Melbourne is bad - certain nationalities are involved, policing is poor/ineffective?

Wombat maybe you should take your own advice and not see a few papers and ministers statements as representative of India. 

Eric is against women and Poms - who would have thunk?

BBB says:

02:52pm | 07/01/10

Setting aside the fact that someone died, this ‘debate’ is almost laugable.

Yes, Australia does have a problem with racism.  Wind back the clock a few years to Australia Day in Sydney.  No point denying it.  It’s not endemic, but it is a problem.

For an Indian Minister to call it a henious crime against humanity is quite stupid.  Rather than comment on a terrible crime in another country, the Minister should be focusing his attention on the vast gulf between the haves and have nots in his own country.  A dark park in Footscray is going to look like absolute paradise compared to the slums in Mumbai (ie a majority of the city).  To slam Australia over the death of one person is laughable when millions and millions and millions live in abject poverty in India.  Does the same Minister care to comment on the levels of violence in his own country.  Melbourne can be rough, but not on the same level as India.  Finally, what about the now outlawed, or supposedly outlawed, caste system?  Sure it’s not racism, but social division simply on the basis of the status of the family you were born into?  Please.

Finally, it would seem that any official Australian response has to taken into account the vast sums of money our educational institutions make from foreign students.  While I understand the dollars and cents of the argument, surely our educational institutions and those that fund them (ie the Federal Government) should not lose focus on the fact that these institutions exist to educate and not to make money.  Universities as businesses or universities as centres for educational excellence.  The Government response should remember that universities exist for the later and not the former.

Dave says:

03:01pm | 07/01/10

Maybe in the spirit of reconciliation and friendship Mr Gupta can liaise with India’s External Affairs Minister SM Singh to return Puneet Puneet who they are hiding from Australian Law in India after he killed a young Australian student Dean Hofstee and badly injured his mate while driving drunk and speeding before fleeing back to India?

After all the Indians know exactly where he is - living back with his parents in India.
After all Mr Singh, you yourself called on ” the Australian government to take action on this uncivilised brutal attack on innocent Indians”. How about YOU take action on bringing another murderer to justice.

Should I hold my breath Mr Singh? Mr Gupta? Bueller….??

Michael says:

03:05pm | 07/01/10

In the small town I live in both the local service stations have been bought out by people who appear to be from the sub continent, why is it all the white staff get replaced by brown ones and its not racist? If I bought out an indian owned servo and replaced all the workers with whites would I be in trouble?

Naresh says:

03:18pm | 07/01/10

BBB, your right the minister should make sure is house is clean before he comments on someone elses. His comment was overly exaggerated, but the travel advise on the website is more accurate in that it states to be cautious, which is the case when anyone travels overseas.
The money part of it is huge, I think its like the 4th biggest earner for the economy, which translates to more money in the treasury, so they would not want to squander that either. Its not all abt race these attacks, so everyone needs to relax, BAD THINGS HAPPEN TO GOOD PEOPLE all over the world.  I know 99% of Australians ( Caucasians, hispanics, Italian, Islander, greeks and eeveryone else in bw) are not racist, its the 1% or less that are. do we really need to give them so much attention.

Emily says:

03:28pm | 07/01/10

I abhorrent racism of any kind, low level or worse. I’ve always found Melbourne to be the most multicultural and tolerant of all Australian cities and based on the details I’ve read, I believe the murder of Nitin Garg was unfortunately opportunist rather than racial motivated.
As a postgrad student, many of my fellow students are from a variety of overseas countries including India. The majority of them live in economical, inner city accomodation and rely on public transport. Very few own a car. In addition, many work in after-hours, hospitality jobs. Unfortunately, these factors are making international students more vulnerable and contributing to them being over-represented as victims of crimes. In October 2007 in Perth for example, Chinese student Jiao Dan was murdered as she left a train station after returning from her evening cleaning job. More needs to be done to ensure the safety of all people and our international students need to be aware that Australia is not as safe as perhaps they were lead to believe.

Wombat says:

03:43pm | 07/01/10

Shama, I did not claim “a few papers and ministers statements as representative of India.”
I wrote “Some politicians” and “Some media”. I did not imply in any way that this was representative of India.

GCM says:

03:48pm | 07/01/10

I agree with much written here, I have experienced, as a POM too some of what Steve has and more. Seems get into a fairly light bantering argument with a so called Australian and when they loose its ‘F%cK of POM, Go back to your own country’ I truly grew up around Londoners from many walks of live’s Pakistani, Indian, West Indian’s, Italians and a smattering of others. We had our racists who were more overt and identifiable than Australian Racists.

Australia had a great reputation as loving, friendly, fun, party animals but sadly now we rarely are.

We have allowed the idiots in our communities a voice of their dislike.

If we have a killer or killers out there targeting Indian’s we need to stop them before our reputation is tarnished further. I hate hearing the comments about a Racist Australia, we have a problem we should deal with it. Maybe its time to reeducate Australia that we are a very multural cultural society and perhaps if they do not like it - they leave.

Today, I work with many cultures, more than back in England we came for study or lifestyle and each enrich this country with their ways and humour. Time many learned that is how in a time of mass travel a free, well balanced, would community country should be.

Finally, let the law sort this out. Don’t pre-empt that otherwise it may allow criminals to get away with their crimes.

SM says:

04:00pm | 07/01/10

I recall seeing a couple of politicians on Q & A last year declaring that there is no racism in Australia. Laughable. I don’t know if this latest attack was racially motivated.  I do know that there are a lot of racist people in Australia, particularly amongst the uneducated

paulm says:

04:07pm | 07/01/10

I’ve backpacked around India before and I think their country has far bigger issues than a few students (unfortunately) getting killed whilst studying overseas.  Perhaps that’s the whole point though, to distract Indian voters from all the corruption and social inequality (e.g. caste system, wife beatings and “honour” killings) going on in their own country.  They also seem to have forgotten about the Andrew Symonds incident during the cricket, where I believe it was the Indian’s making racist comments about Australian’s being “hairy monkeys”...  In other words, all cultures have a racist and xenophobic element, its been around for as long as there’s been human beings…

Michael says:

04:15pm | 07/01/10

Yeah it is laughable to suggest there is no racism in Australia, you need only consider the criminal actions of many new Australians who come here for a better life, at the expense of white Australians who they hate.

AT says:

04:38pm | 07/01/10

Paul,

You describe Indian political and media claims of racism as “unhelpful” and “counter-productive”. You say it “breeds fear and anger in affected communities”.

Firstly, a politician ramping up an emotive issue for less than noble reasons with no regard to its impact beyond their demographic is not peculiar to Indian politics. Indeed, some of the Australian political identities who are regulars on The Punch are masters of the craft. You should tell them to stop.

Secondly, the hysterical tabloid Indian hacks are spewing their bile in response to a year of alleged racist attacks and now a murder. Contrast that to an Australian counterpart, Alan Jones, who virtually incited the Anglo race riot in Cronulla in response to… what? You should hold him to account.

Thirdly, it’s a bit rich of you to declare that communities which make claims of racism are actually doing more damage to themselves. You say they make themselves ‘fearful and angry’. Delicate little flowers. I’d suggest they’re in a very very much better position than you to judge the motivations of the perpetrators of crimes against them. I’d need to know how in-depth investigations by you or your professional colleagues into these claims have been, before taking you seriously on this matter. Meantime, you should keep your pants on.

Strangely, this article and some of the posters in support seem simultaneously defensive and arrogant. “We’re not racist, but if we are, you’re worse and anyway you can’t prove it”.

The Chk Chk Boom imbecile and the infantile Hey Hey idiots “are a way of checking the boundaries”, you tell us, but the Indian students with their broken bones and wounded dignity are ‘crying wolf’.

Even if you have a point your selective coverage discredits your position. You seem to suggest that Indian politicians should stop being hucksters — just for us. That Indian shock jocks should moderate their delirium — just for us. That expatriates should stop the self-flagellating practice of claiming Australia is racist — just for us.

I reckon they’d all be justified in suggesting you determine the level and nature of racism in Australia, acknowledge it and do what you can to eliminate it before issuing directives on how others should comment about Australian racism.

Bharat Singh says:

04:56pm | 07/01/10

Pete from Sydney - You disgust me.

Granted all cultures have a xenophobic element. However there have indeed been sustained racially motivated attacks against Indians in Melbourne. This is a racial issue, despite these protestations to the contrary. It is not unreasonable to assume that this was a racist attack, since this was clearly not a robbery, and there have been recent attacks of a similar nature against Indians.

I do not deny that India has its problems, however reading most of the above statements, the consensus appears to be that since India has its problems these students should not complain.

Nothing better proves the point of racism than a cursory glance at the above comments.

tc says:

05:17pm | 07/01/10

This murder may not have a racial motive but this poor guy is not the only Indian to have been assaulted in melbourne recently.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and looks like a duck…. it’s probably a duck.

The Indian minister may have over reacted or shot his mouth off but it doesnt mean he’s wrong. Australians would be making the same noises and finger pointing if the situations were reversed.

It looks very much to me like there is a racial problem in Mebourne. Dont know if it’s generational or across the board but denial wont make it go away.

davido says:

05:32pm | 07/01/10

I live in India and can categorically say that it is the most racist and violent country of any of the 76 countries I have visited.

Last year some 40+ foreign tourists to GOA were murdered. How many tourists were killed on the Gold Coast last year?

Ever since Australia embarrassed India at the cricket a couple of years ago there has been a political and media campaign to get Australians in this country. Every week you will read an article attacking Australia. Some examples include the articles saying Australians couldn’t speak English, how Australians are half-breeds, how Australians slaughter Animals, how most Australians are uneducated, how Australians are arrogant. It has not stopped for almost 2 years now.

India is out to GET Australia. This is a fact and if you do not believe me start reading some of the Indian newspapers.

rod sexton says:

06:39pm | 07/01/10

The deceased was not a student, he was a qualified accountant.
And he chose to walk through an unlit park at night instead of walking along a busy Summerville Rd.
This after his friends say he had had trouble before in the area.
I have lived in Melbourne for sixty years and I don’t walk through parks at night. lit or unlit.

Jamers Hunter says:

07:01pm | 07/01/10

percyphone, good to see you have your sensible hat on today ! much as i think there are too many liberals in victoria for it to be truly safe (lol) you comment about the type of work and the hours of comming and going to those types of jobs is very relavant.  i would also say that they are probably doing those jobs because a lot of the “natives” are too lasy to do them.

Matthew says:

07:36pm | 07/01/10

Lets see.  Puneet Puneet is still on the run being safely harboured by the Indian community.  But that’s not racist.  What’s worse is the political game our State Govt. is playing with this.  Must be an election year.

Shama says:

07:50pm | 07/01/10

Davido, we know tourists were killed in Goa because the Indian papers reported it as a matter of concern. Also its laughable if you think the cricket is a reason to “get’ Australians, I mean do you really live in India?  Apart from the fact that there are a fair few admirers of the Oz cricket team in India (not to speak of Oz crickerters making heaps of endorsement money there), there is the small matter of a number of bashed Indians over the past year in Melbourne that is contributing to negative coverage.  I can only imagine what would be the reaction here if the situation is reversed - haven’t we heard of how bad every justice system is from Indonesia to Croatia when Aussies are involved?  Most Indians also question their own media and people I know believe that the truth is somewhere between what the media is projecting either side of the ocean.

Daniel says:

08:40pm | 07/01/10

While this murder is very sad and should be fully investigated.I personally feel were at te tipping point when it comes to Indian student Immigration. WE have poor Aussies here in Australia that cant afford to go to uni and are trying to look for work and these India students are jumping in ahead because of money. Its wrong and should be stopped.

Suhasini says:

09:34pm | 07/01/10

@GCM: You’re right, there’s no point denying a problem just because its derogatory - and the problem is beyond the assaults and murders of the recent past (b y no means a few). People agree there are some ‘mentally challenged’ young people that arent using grey matter that are causing this misery. If teenagers can laugh while beating up others, and call rape a sport, what is going on in the youths mind? Being an immigrant myselt, I;m not aware of what exposure and attitudes kids develop towards multiculturalism - the problem appears to be more deep rooted.
It’s all well to make education the third largest export and bring in immigrants, but what about the social effects? And Julia Gillard’s answer in the ABC program about the social effects being addressed by logistic planning is just one aspect of it. Perhaps there should be programs in school to perpetuate tolerance and acceptance of multiculturalism.

About asking Indian politicians to look within India - well, if one Australian so much as gets hurt in any part of the world - be it Europe, America, Africa, Middle East or Asia, it is news here in Australia. The Indian government is trying to do the same - protect its people wherever they are. Any government would want to do that. There are crimes in all major cities of the world but surely a disproportionately high amount of crime against an ethnicity is worht the issue being raised and discussed?!

Q.E.D. says:

09:36pm | 07/01/10

@ Derek says:02:10pm | 07/01/10

I’m with you, Derek!

SS says:

09:51pm | 07/01/10

@ davido: India is out to GET australia?  You mean by sending people there by scores - contributing to the economy by paying university fees, rent, lving expenses, travel & tourism, etc.. ?  Perhaps the 1000 odd assaults were actually Indians bashing each other up just so they can blame it on Australia and call them racist. Perhaps thats the sole purpose of coming to Australia - GETTING them… What fools! When some Australians dont ‘get’ what being Australian means, how can Indians GET them?!

Charles Kelly says:

10:04pm | 07/01/10

How many of the perpetrators of these “racially motivated” attacks “specifically targetting Indians” been caught and convicted, or at least identified? I’d be interested to know their ethnic backgrounds - because the only recent incidents of violent crime against Indians I’m aware of (where the attacker has been caught/identified) were perpetrated by Indians.

Objective says:

11:39pm | 07/01/10

Racism is certainly alive and kicking in Australia, but it is in every other country I’ve been too (including India!) How is this a racist murder when the killer hasn’t been caught yet? A lot of people will have egg on their face if the killer/s isn’t white.
A young Indian man just killed an unborn baby in a road rage incident, I don’t see anything at all in the Indian news about this.
Maybe Vic police should refuse to investigate until the Indian police hand over Puneet Puneet. Indian police have done nothing to find this self confessed drunken murderer who fled back to india after killing a young student. I guess that would just be sinking to their level of corruption and unsolved murders/rapes wouldn’t it? The word Dalit / Untouchable comes to mind whenever Indians burn effigies in the street and call us racist, how about India stops their classism against 160 million dalits before they try to act so superior?

Duncan says:

12:47am | 08/01/10

The racism question is raising some interesting commentary in Indian press…

http://www.outlookindia.com/article.aspx?250314

acker says:

08:04am | 08/01/10

This racism happens to Australian’s in India as well apparently  

http://www.smartraveller.gov.au/zw-cgi/view/Advice/India

“Women travellers, especially when alone, often receive unwanted attention and have been sexually harassed and assaulted. There have been a number of sexual offences reported against foreign women in Delhi and Goa. Women should avoid walking alone at night in deserted areas, including city streets, village lanes and beaches.

Travellers staying on houseboats in Kashmir have been intimidated and harassed by houseboat employees. There are persistent allegations and media reports of sexual misconduct involving religious cults and their leaders in India.

Petty theft is common in crowded areas such as markets, airports and bus and railway stations. Thieves on motorcycles commonly snatch shoulder bags and jewellery.

Travellers have been robbed and assaulted after consuming ‘spiked’ drinks or food. Incidents of tourists riding in taxis and rickshaws being robbed and assaulted have been reported. Prepaid taxi services should be used whenever possible and taxis already carrying passengers should be avoided.

Some travellers have been intimidated or tricked into buying overpriced items after accepting unsolicited offers of assistance, particularly help with shopping for jewellery, gems and carpets.

Hikers have been attacked and have disappeared in the Kulu/Manali district in Himachal Pradesh, particularly on more remote trekking routes. Hikers are strongly urged not to hike alone and to obtain detailed information in advance about proposed hiking routes. You and your group should register your presence with the local police and online with us.

In parts of India, religious missionary activity may attract some resentment. In January 1999, an Australian missionary and his two young sons were murdered in the eastern state of Orissa.

SLF says:

09:32am | 08/01/10

Great…..so rather than focusing on the murder of somone we have entered into a competition of ‘Your Country Is More Racist Than MIne!”

Hopefully some TV exec out there will pick it up, it would make a change from ‘Hole in the wall’ and other garbage.

acker says:

01:37pm | 08/01/10

2008/09 there were 65503 Indian students in Australia that is 20.4% of the 320368 foreign students in Australia. That is 20.4% of the $16 billion per year being used in the media, that is $3.26 billion per year Indian students contribute to the $806 billion Australian economy which is less than 0.5% per year…I dont think Australia should cowtail any more to India, we are sorry but we will not let India dictate Australian policy.
student visa figures from

http://www.immi.gov.au/media/fact-sheets/50students.htm#h

australian GDP from

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/as.html

@SLF this murder is getting a lot more focus in India than most other murders

CArl Palmer says:

04:09pm | 08/01/10

@AT says: 05:38pm | 07/01/10
Unless you have first hand information, be very careful of what you say re Cronulla. Unless you were a member of that surf club for many years prior to the day in question and had nippers as members of that club who went on to performed their community surf patrol duties, then I’d suggest that you know nothing. Nothing. Only what you read in the papers – which BTW was completely misleading. I’ll let you in on a little secret - it wasn’t racially motivated and Alan Jones had nothing I repeat nothing to do with it.  Your reference to this matter discredits you position.

@Suhasini says: 10:34pm | 07/01/10
“well, if one Australian so much as gets hurt in any part of the world - be it Europe, America, Africa, Middle East or Asia, it is news here in Australia” – that may be the case I don’t know, but what I can say is that we don’t jump on the roof and shout hysterically that they were racist.

I’ll say this over and over again and as previously posted - I cannot speak for every other Australian, but, I have never met anyone that I would or could call a racist. Period.
I raised this topic at dinner last night and asked the members of my family to name me a person that they considered racist – friend, acquaintance, work mate – anyone – BTW they don’t live in a fishbowl, they do have a life and get out and about. They could only come up with two – one was an Aussie who has passed away and the other wasn’t an Aussie – an infamous SOB.

And my final point – if Australians are racists then why would we let you in in the first place? And don’t give me that money bit – that’s been addressed. If we were then we would have slammed the door and told you where to go. But no we opened up our door and let you and others – Asians, Europeans, Africans, Yanks etc etc into this great country. Get a grip.

So on behalf of the Aussie people I know we take exception to the notion that we are characterized as racist. We are not.

Chantelle says:

05:41pm | 08/01/10

Lol,

Love the internet bully boys.

AT says:

07:37pm | 08/01/10

CArl Palmer says: 05:09pm | 08/01/10

“we take exception to the notion that we are characterized as racist”

What do you mean “we”, paleface?

I shouldn’t want to be as malevolent and disingenuous as you, but you forfeit the right to common courtesy when you say to me ‘I should be careful what I say re Cronulla’. Careful of what, Carl? Are you making a threat?

I wouldn’t of thought it possible that one person could cast themselves as such a ridiculous character in a single blog post, but you reach new heights. I wouldn’t question the veracity of your dinner table survey, but do you honestly think it proves anything? As for the rest of your stridently certain claims, can you substantiate any of them? Even one? Just a little bit?

Trust me, Carl, you’re a fool.

Tom says:

08:08pm | 08/01/10

Is there any evidence that it is a racially motivated crime yet? After all, there is every chance Garg could have been killed by another Indian. Apparently up here in Sydney there is a lot of violence between Lebanese and Indian groups for example.

The long and short of the matter is that unfortunately crime always has and always will exist, and hence some people will be victims of crime. So far, despite all the hysteria I see no evidence that Indians are over represented in victim of crime statistics. Of course where racism exists it should be targeted in the strongest way possible, but to say that Indians are more at risk than any other group in Australia without any evidence to support that contention is absurd.

davido says:

11:40pm | 08/01/10

I welcome the contribution of both economic migrants and asylum seekers to Australia’s lively cosmopolitan culture. But at some point this comes at a cost.

As a victim of Indian violence towards Australians in India I know very well the mob mentality of Indians. To suggest that Indians attack in packs is an understatement. I watched today as a mob gathered, pushing and shoving as a white man in Bangalore refused to pay his Auto ‘white man tax’. He was lucky, but Australians have only just started to realise the true cost of allowing so many Indian students into Australia.

That cost takes many forms.

The tit-for-tat arrest of an Australian in India today is a classic example of sub-continent racism and politics. A dispute which would have been settled in short time by two Indians escalated because of the involvement of a foreigner and even better: an Australian. The Indian would have had an eye on extracting as much extortion money from the rich white man as possible. When that wasnt forthcoming he brought out his big weapon - the police. Knowing the police would never ever take the word of a foreigner over a local he knew he was on a good wicket. Every Australian in India lives in fear of this very situation. The prevailing advice is to throw as much money on the ground as you can and run. Sometimes you may not be that lucky.

What Australians forget is that Indians are only used to a duo-culture and an insular one at that. 80% of Indians are Hindu. 13% are Muslim. So just two religious cultures account for 93% of the population. Less than 2% of the population are born overseas.

Compare that to Australia where the top ten religions account for less than two thirds of the populations. And where almost 50% of the population are born overseas or have one parent or both born overseas.

It is not surprising then that the pack mentality of street marching, flag burning and radical politiking which works so well in India fails so miserably in Australia. Australians, by and large reject that approach.

The equivalent political response by an Indian government would have amounted to a lot of inquiries, investigations, fist waving, apologies and grand gestures of conciliation. Not much would have been achieved but all the players would have been placated.

That sort of response has not been forthcoming and is unlikely to be forthcoming from Australia. Thus, Indians cannot compute and digest the Australian response. Thus the campaign against Australia continues.

Stats from:

http://www.immi.gov.au/media/publications/research/_pdf/poa-2008.pdf

and

http://www.censusindia.net

Cuppa says:

08:12am | 09/01/10

I would say you are the fool AT.Personally, i think Carl Palmer has some valid points.And whether you like it all not, many Australians would agree with him( i personally would know more than a few), so my advice would be before you get hysterical in future & start finding threats were there are none(re. cronulla) & running your mouth off you respect that you are not a majority & dont speak for many of us.That might insult your bleeding heart sensibilities, but sorry Ace, thats just the way it is.

Wombat says:

12:26pm | 09/01/10

What Indians do in India is surely up to the Indians.
It may make us look good by comparison (or at times it may not) but it would be nice if we could hold Australia to a higher standard.
We should all work against racism in Australia at all times, regardless of what happens in India. We should be especially careful about using unfortunate events in a third world country as an excuse for criminal actions in Australia.

davido says:

03:04pm | 09/01/10

Wombat, it is correct to say that ‘one wrong does not justify another’. It is also pointless to have a slanging match about who is more racist.

Yet, any moral comparison with India does make us look good. The UN says some 14000 Nepalese women and children are sold into India as sex workers/slaves EVERY year. I am not sure those sex slaves would be happy with the statement ‘What Indians do in India is surely up to the Indians.’

There are hundreds more human, social and political rights abuses occurring here on a massive scale. Why the media dont pay more attention to the massive human rights abuses in India amazes me. Those rights abuses make China’s look trivial.

It is important to recognise however that hypocrisy undermines a ‘higher moral ground’. It is also important to recognise when an underlying Agenda exists. How many people in Australia understand that the recent protests by Indian students in Australia were organised by BJP wannabee politicians?

The BJP is India’s equivalent to the extreme right. They are rabid, nationalistic, extraordinarily insular and willing to have a go at anyone. Whether that be China, Pakistan or Australia.

The next step on the BJP campaign is race riots. Has everyone forgotten the years of race riots the Indians started in England through the 1980’s? Watch out Australia, here they come!

AT says:

06:51pm | 09/01/10

Thanks for your advice Cuppa, I’ll file it under gratuitous. I’m well aware “many Australians would agree” with Carl and, no, I wasn’t speaking for you. Neither was I speaking TO you.

Nevertheless, you’re perfectly entitled to disagree with me, even in your belligerent, aggressive (read threatening) manner, but if you want to retain any credibility and avoid being labelled a fool you might consider backing up Carl’s farcical comments with some, you know, facts or something.

Despite Carl’s unverified insistence it wasn’t the case, Alan Jones gave licence for 5,000 moronic thugs to embark on their clearly, obviously, indisputably racist rampage. What troubles me is that this article has given you, Carl and your coterie similar licence to engage in your squalid little circle jerk.

I hope it doesn’t inspire something even more distasteful than your comments.

Wombat says:

02:10pm | 10/01/10

Davido: It doesn’t surprise me that Indian politicians can be venal and self-serving. They are politicians, after all. Politicians in Australia also use unsavoury tactics. I said as much in my first post here, though unfortunately I used sarcasm, which just doesn’t seem to work well on The Punch.
Indian politicians can be horrid creatures, just as Australian politicians can be. Ignorant people will often seize at the bigotted rantings of politicians because it seems to explain all their problems.
I take your point about sex slaves, etc. We have them in Australia too.
I still think that Indian domestic matters are best left to Indians. We can try to influence them through talking, but shrill, inflammatory rhetoric by Australians is no better than shrill, inflammatory rhetoric by Indians. I certainly wouldn’t be in favour of an Iraq-style solution to what some people here see as India’s moral short-comings.
These sort of diplomatic conflicts, and any escalation of them, just play into the hands of the right wing politicians in both countries who will be happy to fan the flames.

davido says:

03:39pm | 10/01/10

Wombat, people and politicians tend towards the same characteristics everywhere. Short-comings and all.

There are however some psychological differences between nations. One characteristic of the current Indian mental state is to try to claim victim status. It used to be that every problem was blamed on the British. By the turn of the century that was getting a bit long in the tooth.

Now in every dispute involving Indians there is a great rush to claim who is the greater wronged party. This occurs within India, but when it involves a foreigner the claim will almost always take the form that the foreigner is racist: regardless of the issue or the facts.

I have seen the stunned look on the faces of Swiss, Danish, Canadians and many others when they have been called racist by an Indian in a dispute or issue. Last week I saw a French airline passenger have that stunned look when told she was racist by an Indian for complaining that her baggage had been lost at Bangalore Airport.

The claim can and will be made for anything with or (usually) without justification.

On another aspect, to compare the outrageous human rights, political and socio-economic abuses of India to Australia is a travesty of ignorance. This is the fault of the West. Indians often complain that India is ignored by the world and this is true.

Other than banal reports on bollywood and poverty there is little in this country that makes it out to the world at large. India probably represents a significant part of the future of the non-communist world and for this alone it needs to be examined in greater detail. Wombat, did you know that India is the largest importer of Arms in the world? Did you know it has an estimated 50 to 70 nuclear weapons? I am guessing you, like everyone else, are not aware of these type of facts.

The incredible socio-economic abuses, discrimination and the stated goal of being a super power requires non-Indian media to investigate this country more fully.

I seek not to put India down. I merely suggest that there may be more to this than one thinks. An agenda may not have started this ruckus, but it is definitely on the table now.

A little more depth and perception in the Australian reporting may help a lot. It also might help if the Australian media reported some of the terrible things happening to Australians and others in India. That might make me feel the reporting is a little more balanced.

Jack says:

05:55pm | 10/01/10

Reply to AT

Explain to me AT why you only mention the white thugs in Cronulla and not the disgraceful, racist, bullying, aggressive, bigoted and misogynistic behaviour by male members of the Lebanese community. It went on for years and made a trip to Cronulla Beach especially for females from Nippers to elderly women a revolting experience.  As a resident of the Shire I can vouch for the disgusting situation which provoked the riots especially from female members within my owe family. Pleas to the state government for extra police and patrols fell on deaf ears. I did not go near Cronulla on that day it was obvious it was going to turn nasty. 

The behaviour at the Cronulla riots was a disgrace but I can understand what provoked it. In future don’t mention one without the other. Isn’t that what types like you always tell us. To be even handed etc etc etc. Also while you are at it if Anglo Australians need diversity training please let me know when you are going to go to the nearest Mosque in Greenacre and request the males to attend a seminars feminism and cross cultural values especially concerning women. Suggested topics will include “women are not sluts even if they are not covered from head to toe”. Let me know when you have done it?

AT says:

07:54pm | 10/01/10

Jack,

I didn’t mention the Lebs because 1) all those details are quite a few degrees removed from the subject at hand and 2) it’s not a pissing contest.

Whatever factors led to the racist Cronulla riot, racist it was. I took exception to Carl’s reply to me and his idiotic insistence that it was not.

I’ll ignore your “types like you” remark, not least because I don’t know what you mean. But if you, as a resident of the Shire and possessing the insight you therefore must have, feel that Muslim men would benefit from the seminars you describe, I reckon you’d be better placed than me to instigate such a program.

Wombat says:

10:51pm | 10/01/10

Davido: At no time did I compare the quantity and degree of human rights abuses in India to those in Australia. Others here, yourself included, have done that. I simply said that these problems do occur in both countries.
I also said that it would be nice if we could hold Australia to a higher standard. The story here is about the death of a young man and the possibility that racial violence against Indians is occurring in Australia. I simply cannot see what anecdotal stories of racism in India or theories about Indian political extremism have to do with it. And does anyone really care what a few opportunistic politicians in India are saying? Given what some of our politicians are capable of I wouldn’t want to start throwing stones.
It might surprise you to hear that I have experienced racism in India, of a similar nature to one of the stories that you told. I survived my little scuffle. Whatever happened to Nitin Garg, he wasn’t so lucky. So I know from personal experience that these incidents were occurring in India well over 20 years ago.
The question here is not whether racism occurs in India, or whether they have nuclear weapons, or whether they have ratbag politicians. The question is what type of country is Australia and what standards do we want to hold Australia to.
I most certainly do not want to compare India to Australia. I expect so much better from Australia.

Kate M says:

12:43am | 11/01/10

I’m getting pretty bored of being told Australia isn’t racist. Australia is a racist country. Instead of being defensive, Australians should consider this.
I try to be aware of my white privilege. Sometimes it is difficult to be called out on opinions or actions, but I’d prefer to deal with that than continue hurting anyone with the ignorance my privilege allows me.

Carl Palmer says:

10:40am | 11/01/10

Thanks AT for your kind post(s) – I’ll try and get this out of the gutter and civil.

As for “threat” get a grip and by “careful” – careful with your “facts”.

So it’s ok for you to make outlandish and misleading statements when you don’t have any first hand details of the Cronulla incident. Reread my post and note of the parts that refer to being a member(s) of that surf club. You conveniently pick the bits that suit you – cheap response(s).

You want examples - I’ll give you a couple of real examples –

my daughters (then 13 yo) – were lifeguards (nippers) and whilst performing their community duties were often verbally abused. In one incident they were told to F off by - yes those males. This did not happen once but many times over many many years. What was the reason for the F off response this time – they were politely asking a group of 17yo (yes those ones) to kick the football somewhere else - away from the families trying to enjoy their day i.e. use the other end of the beach.

Another one – one lifeguard goes out to save someone who is in trouble - distress. The lifeguard get’s there and attempts to get the guy onto his board but couldn’t because he was panicking and frantically splashing and waving their arms around, in the end he just grabbed a handful of hair hauls him on the board and brings the guy back to shore – that is safety. So instead of the guy saying thank you he verbally abused the lifeguard for pulling his hair and leaves. He comes back with 3 mates and belts the bejesus out of the lifeguard.

And we are racist?? Give me a break. If we were racist the lifeguard would have left him out there. But no, he did the right and expected thing!

Another one – husband and wife walking thru the park one afternoon pushing a stroller with their baby in it. Group of (yes those ones again) try to rob them. As he was an ex ALF player he belts them and they run away. 

Yes I can substantiate them - these are just a couple of real life examples, a taste of the crap people had to ensure over many many years. But you won’t understand that because you were not there. You were not at the end of this abuse – even to 13 year old girls. You grab the very easy Alan Jones nonsense and splash that out everywhere. You have a myopic view of that incident in particular and of the general behaviour throughout Sydney at that time.

What Jack says: 06:55pm | 10/01/10 is absolutely correct, repeated attempts were made for assistance but nothing.

As for my dinner discussion – at least I’m out there seeking other peoples views (eg doctors and other professionals, truck drivers) – and you criticise me for attempting to understand and canvass other viewpoints.

Can you provide any substance to you position other than Alan Jones and the abuse you have thrown my way? No just the “Alan Jones gave licence for 5,000 moronic thugs to embark on their clearly, obviously, indisputably racist rampage”. The racial card is all too easy to throw out and hide behind. 

And Yes I was down there that day early in the moring going for a jog and no I was not there when it started or for any part of that incident and no I did not know that anything was going to happen.

I do not condone violence or support racism in any way shape or form, that behaviour is totally unacceptable. Period

Did you get down there and noticed any changes not long after the riots?  No you wouldn’t, because your head is well and truly buried in the sand because you only pick the bits that suite your case. If we are a racist country then we seem to become permanently accepting very very quickly with female Muslims patrolling the beach – which can I say is just fantastic and there should be more of it.
And finally no it was not racially motivated – that is **motivated** it was the straw that broke the camels back with another lifeguard bashed up yet again.

Jimbob says:

11:53am | 11/01/10

I’m not surprised Carl can find so many people to agree with him, after all this is the country that invented the phrase “I’m not a racist, but [insert racist claim here]”. It gives racists comfort that so many people seem to agree with them and/or buy the line that they’re not actually racist at all, but the truth is the truth.

James says:

12:53pm | 11/01/10

Hi Carl,

I have a first-hand story from Cronulla that day.  A friend of mine (who is and Iranian refugee) took his wife and two children on the train to the beach that morning.  Around lunchtime, he decided it was time to go home as it was clear trouble was brewing.  On the train, he and his family were accosted by a group of white youths with flags painted on their faces, accused of being terrorists, and his four years old daughter was kicked in the face, while he was severely beaten and his wife threatened with rape.  The words “raghead”, “towelhead”, and “curry-muncher” were all bandied about before the attacks began.  No, obviously there was no racism at Cronulla that day, and none of the rioters had racist motivations… when they kicked a four year old girl in the face for being Iranian.

Cuppa says:

03:20pm | 11/01/10

Hi james,
          i have a story for you.A friend of mine was catching a train to work & was accosted by three youths ‘of middle eastern appearance’(Shock! Horror!), called a ‘skippy Sl*t’ and then was grabbed ‘down stairs’ by the ring leader.She was extremely upset & reported it to the police.One of the officers took her aside & told her these things are common in that area(Parramatta) but it is hard for the police because the ‘minority’in that area will band together & info on the assailent would be almost inpossible to obtain.If you push too hard they will scream ‘rascist’.These minorities need to put inline because they show little respect to this country.They bring instances like cronulla on themselves with their actions.Unfortunetly there will always be do gooders like yourself & AT that have your heads in the sand & refuse to see the problems.Luckily, judging by many of the comments here, you are a minority(i bet that hurts)........

James says:

03:46pm | 11/01/10

Hi Cuppa,
I disagree.  What you describe is a real problem, and needs dealing with.  Just because I do not think people should kick little girls in the face, does not mean I think that it is okay to sexually harass grown women.  Your moral compass is a little confused, my friend.  Apparently, you think it is okay to kick little girls because people from completely different countries are sexist pigs.  What does that say about you, sir?
It does not hurt me to be in the minority, especially if the (so-called) majority are apologists for people who assault four year-old girls, by kicking them in the face and threatening their mother with rape.
I am happy to call a crime a crime, regardless of who did what to who.  You, however, will happily excuse crimes against children on the basis that their parents were born in Iran.  I pity your children.
What both of us have described are real problems in our country.  I am happy to admit that both of these stories represent real issues.  You seem to think that my story is not, and that yours is, and that by caring about my young daughter’s best friend, I am somehow deficient.  Again, this says more about your deficiencies of character than I think you realise.

James says:

03:55pm | 11/01/10

In case my first response was too harsh, I thought I had better send this one as well.

Hi Cuppa,
You are wrong.  I would not hesitate to condemn what your friend went through - that is terrible, and that situation needs to be fixed.  That you cannot condemn similar violence against a four year old - indeed, you seem to defend it - is reprehensible, and if the majority think that violence perpetrated by grown men against children (simply for their being Iranian) is okay, then I am happy to be in the minority.  If the majority is as you describe, then being part of it would be the thing that hurts most of all…

By the way, there is no “s” in “racist”.

David V. says:

04:26pm | 11/01/10

Cronulla reminds me of Oldham a few years back, where a pensioner got beaten up by a gang of Asian youths, and sparked riots across three towns.

We’ve got the same problem in Australia, where a campaign of blackmail and hate is being directed against its hard-working and law-abiding Anglo population. And not surprisingly, people in the UK are voting for the UKIP and BNP in larger numbers because they feel unfairly demonised. Look at the support the EDL are getting.

The Third World needs to stop blaming the West and help itself. Look at countries in Africa that can’t solve their AIDS crisis- those that can are those that help themselves. The whole Libyan HIV trial, where foreign nurses and doctors were wrongly blamed for spreading HIV, is indicative of countries that need to blame the West for their failings.

Who wants to be a middle-aged, working-class white Australian or British male these days- because you know you’re destined to cop it for eternity.

Cuppa says:

05:05pm | 11/01/10

James, i did not condone what happened to your friend(i think its discusting), what i am saying is that certain minorities in this country are more trouble than they are worth.The fact that we even need a ‘middle eastern crime squad’ to handle the crimes of one minority speaks volumes.Many of these same minorities have brought a lot of trouble on themselves.They are being judged by their actions.Much of what you call racism i call patriotism & respect in the Australian culture.We are obviously very different people but i do respect that you aknowledge that what happened to my friend is a problem.

davido says:

05:56pm | 11/01/10

Wombat, it doesn’t surprise me that you have experienced racism first hand in India and I too would personally like to hold Australia to a certain standard of behaviour. But the same standard should be applied to everyone should it not? Surely to do otherwise would be the definition of racism.

I think right now, or at least in this forum, the question has become how does Australia manage our relationship with India and our Indian guests?

In order to manage this relationship I think three critical things need to be recognised by Australia:

1.  India can and will play by different rules.

2.  India desperately craves credit for their achievements and their place in the world.

3.  India will only respond to economic measures.

Here then, is my plan to rescue the relationship:

a.  The Federal Government should make many positive statements about India their progress and scientific achievements. The praise should be lavish, throw some awards around. That sort of thing.

b.  The Victorian government needs to make a big fuss. Commissions, enquiries and discussions need to be announced. These will all amount to nothing but that is expected. Never ever fall into the trap of giving India ‘victim’ status. No matter how much they beg for it.

c.  Publish statistical data supporting the evidence that students are safe in Australia.

d.  Remove and cancel all Aid to India. Those hundreds of millions can be spent paying the media in India to provide favourable coverage of Australia. The rules are different here and the media openly provides favours to those that provide the cash.

e.  Tighten the visa rules to eliminate the students who come to Australia for the ‘cash in hand’ jobs rather the study nominated on their visa. I suggest checking every 24 hour service station in Melbourne at around 2am. Or try any taxi at around that time.

f.  Chase down and convict any wrongdoers who flee the country. It is really not good enough to let people commit a crime then run away. We are an Island for god’s sake.

g.  Make sure any false claimants are publicised and if possible convicted of the relevant crime.

h.  Make it a requirement that personal information cannot be exported without consent. Remove any tax deduction for work outsourced out of the country.

That should do it.

David V. says:

08:01pm | 11/01/10

South Park’s “Death Camp of Tolerance” paints the sort of situation we’ll have before too long in this country. Even “Cartman’s Silly Hate Crime 2000” is worth a watch. In fact, Stone and Parker have shown their disdain for left/liberal ideas, and it figures in most of their episodes.

Wombat says:

03:54am | 12/01/10

Davido: It’s good that you have a plan. You wouldn’t want to have such a long list of gripes without some ideas on what should be done to solve them.
I don’t agree that the question in this forum has become “how does Australia manage our relationship with India and our Indian guests?”
That’s not what the article was about and it’s not what most of the posts (especially recent ones) have been about. The posts surrounding yours and mine are telling stories of racially motivated crimes committed in Australia against Anglos and people of other ethnic origins. Other posts describe offences committed by members of certain ethnic groups within Australia.
I still think that the primary concern here is the possibility of racial violence in Australia, though I will concede that your posts tend not to deal with this at all.
It would seem that we are just talking about different things. If you are not implying that any level of racist violence in India justifies even the smallest amount of racist violence in Australia then I’m sure that there is no harm in expressing your opinion on India’s (apparently enormous) problems.
Like I keep saying, it would be nice if we could hold Australia to a higher standard. I wouldn’t be too proud to be a member of an educated, wealthy society that sought to judge itself by the same standards it might use to judge homeless lepers from third world slums who have never seen the inside of a school (a deliberately extreme example).
Finally, holding Australia to a higher standard is most definitely not racist. Australia is not a race. Australians of all ethnic backgrounds should reject bigotry and racism, and especially racist violence, regardless of what happens elsewhere in the world.

James says:

09:16am | 12/01/10

Hi again Cuppa,

Why would you expect me not to acknowledge that this is a problem?  And watch that “racism is patriotism” stuff - I would say that my friend and his family were the victims of a racist attack.  Would you call what those thugs did to them patriotism?

And on crime squads, we have many white collar crime squads - should we persecute businessmen because of that?

The only reason I thought you were condoning what happened to my friend’s daughter is because after I posted it, you called me a “do-gooder” with my “head in the sand”.  Why do you say this?  I am able to call a crime a crime, regardless of the ethnicity of the perpetrators or victims.  Why do you consider some crimes to be justified (in the name of patriotism)?  We are all human, after all, whether we are men, women, white, black, Iranian, Arab, Jew or whatever.

James says:

10:04am | 12/01/10

davido,

Total Australian aid to India is $13.5 million.  Check it out on the AusAID website.  Given India’s population, that sounds like a drop in the ocean to me.

davido says:

01:12pm | 12/01/10

James, the AusAid estimated aid for South Asia in 2009-10 is $149.9 million. And yes the AusAid for India is estimated at $13.672 million for the year 2009-10.

AusAid says that in 2009-10 Australia will provided $3.8 billion worth of official development assistance.

However, AusAid does not include the accumulated aid of all the independant charities, NGO’s (especially the value of volunteer work) and one off contributions. It does not include things such as the recent $50 million promised by Kevin Rudd for Greener technology to India.

I rang someone who works at the oz embassy in Delhi and they said the Aid program had a problem getting publicity for Australia’s contribution. Their exact words were the Indian ‘media are not interested’. Indeed, I have never seen a positive article about Australia in my time here.

I am suggesting that the money spent by Australia in India would be better spent directly promoting Australia.

And yes, even a contribution of $100 million over several years is a drop in the Indian ocean. But I can tell you very few Indians are aware of the Australian contribution and most Indians despise Aid from foreigners.

David V. says:

03:35pm | 12/01/10

Let’s be realistic. Do we expect different groups to all love each other. They didn’t in Yugoslavia and they don’t in Cyprus, so why try and make it work in Australia. As Kosovo, Abkhazia, etc show, ethnic separation is infinitely more desirable than making a pluralist society work.

James says:

04:02pm | 12/01/10

We should focus on the facts:

A man was stabbed - We need to find the offender and bring him/her to justice.

The park is too dark -  It needs lights.

Anything beyond that is not relevant, it detracts from what really has to happen.  For the sake of the victim, let’s focus on catching whoever did this and bringing them to justice.  It is what we owe the family of Nitin, not a response to media hype.

James says:

04:24pm | 12/01/10

davido,

Thanks for the reply.

David V., so which groups hate which others exactly?  I would imagine that most Australians do not despise people of different ethnic groups on the basis of ethnicity.  And even if they do, there is a word for that.  What was it again?  Ah yes, racism.  Multiculturalism has worked just fine in Australia, apart from a few insecure types who feel their culture is threatened if new arrivals don’t adopt it entirely and retain some of their own cultural practices.  I personally do not feel threatened by that - my own culture is strong enough that it will survive exposure to others.  Anyone who feels threatened by the presence of other ethnicities must be a pretty weak individual to begin with.

David V. says:

06:30pm | 12/01/10

Shouldn’t every culture be free to celebrate itself, every country be free to decide what it wants, the desire for national identity and independence is most desirable. My own family left Communist oppression in Eastern Europe- I certainly won’t stand for Communism being imposed here, in forms like multiculturalism and feminism!

Carl Palmer says:

10:57am | 13/01/10

OK, I’ll see if I can address all of those posts directed at me…..

So let’s see if I’ve got this right –

A bunch of young men from a particular region of the world come into a particular area and bring their anti social behaviour with them. They abuse people, anyone that comes in contact with them.  They verbally abuse people from young children - male or female to older members of the community – male or female. They particularly target the weak or vulnerable in groups. If they are by themselves and something happens to them, they come back in groups and inflict their revenge. Furthermore they beat people up – they assault people. Most of these people i.e. lifeguards give their time for free to save anyone who may get themselves into a spot of bother.  This happens over a period of time – that is, over a number of years.

I’ll repeat – many years. I’ve given you a couple of examples.

Mind you, this didn’t always happen in dark alleys or during the cover of night, you could see it during the day – well that’s when lifeguards patrol the beach.

This is reported to the authorities and nothing gets done.

I repeat – nothing gets done.

So, we have a situation where a community which was peaceful is now subjected to this anti social behaviour. Note – racism is not an issue - lifeguards are still saving them and in all probability because they didn’t listen to lifeguards directions in the first place. When probably told to swim between the flags probably told the lifeguard to F off.

The community continues to demonstrate a high level of tolerance.

At this point, can these people who are verbally and physically abusing the community be classified as being racist against not only Australians but anyone who came into contact with them?  Hmmm

The pressure cooker is slowly – again over many years building. You could feel that people were starting to say enough was enough. By people I mean the community.

NOTE – there was never any police presence. For those of you who have no idea, a little police office / room located near the kiosk @ Nth Cronulla had the sign “POLICE” over it and I can’t recall it ever being manned.

This continues and the straw that broke the camels back was – yep you guessed it a couple of lifeguards – yep you guessed it right were bashed up i.e. assaulted again. I’ll repeat – assaulted yet again - assaulted – which I thought was a criminal offence.

And again nothing was done about it.

People arrive the next day to protest and it starts out peacefully. Now at this point race has not come into the equation, it was not racially motivated. People were fed up with anti social behaviour with the verbal and physical abuse and the assaults that they / we had to endure.

What happened next was totally unacceptable and the full force of the law applied to those from “both” sides who broke the law.  I have no doubt that many unacceptable and derogatory comments were made to people of all persuasions which was and is completely offensive.

The pressure cooker exploded and yet again I’ll repeat, that the violence was unacceptable but as commented here by Jack a resident “understandable”.

The national spot light was placed on a small community by an insatiable and ravenous news media. Everyone saw the violence so it is a no brainer that those who saw the pictures and listened to the commentary would outnumber the locals. 99.99% of the focus was on that day – the lead up was pretty much ignored. So yes, I’ll be in the minority and it doesn’t bother me. Why? Because I saw it first hand, heard the stories and saw the injuries well before Sunday 11th December 2005 as did many others.

Was I proud of the behaviour no, was it ugly yes, were innocent bystanders included in their wroth yes but was it racially motivated no.

Finally, can I change the majority perceptions of that day - highly unlikely. People have formulated their own ideas and views based on what they saw and heard on or of that day. Unfortunately, they only saw (via the media) the tip of the iceberg but ignored what had transpired in the years leading up to that day.

Today the anti social behaviour has gone and Cronulla is a better place because of it. People of all persuasions come and rightly enjoy in peace what the area has to offer. I’m not linked to any of the surf clubs, but I genuinely hope that more of these people will participated in the activities of these clubs. As I said, it was great to see a Muslim nipper with her mantoo (I think that’s what it is called) board training.

Thank you for the opportunity to respond.

James says:

11:26am | 13/01/10

Good post, Carl, but I can not agree with your comment “was it racially motivated no”.  Calling a four year old child a raghead while you kick her in the face is racially motivated.  There is no denying this.

That said, if lifeguards were attacked because of their race, that is also racially motivated.  And it is equally bad.  However, one racist attack does not justify another - far from it.  I do not think that racial violence - particularly when it is directed against a child - is ever “understandable”.  Awful, yes; disgusting, yes.  But understandable?

Carl Palmer says:

04:53pm | 13/01/10

Gday James, “four year old child a raghead while you kick her in the face is racially motivated.” What I’m saying is that it was initially – originally driven - motivated – stirred by their anti social actions and not the “race” factor. Sure subsequent to that there were racial slurs – statements – accusations, derogatory comments and unacceptable behaviour. You said that it happened at lunch time – things were pretty appalling by that stage – out of control.  As I think I’ve said, violence in any form and particularly to children is not on. Period.

As for referring to the perpetrators as being racist – the comment was made to highlight that the locals were being vilified but they continued to cop it on the chin and as I said continued to do what they had to do. Which is the fundamental point I’m making - they were very tolerant - as most Australians are. It certainly wasn’t meant to justify that because they were doing / saying it, it was ok for us. That said, if no action is taken, then something gotta give which is pretty much what happened.

The “understandable” was in quotes – suggesting that as a local we knew the history ie understood real reason, it wasn’t meant to suggest in any way that what happened was ok.

I do hope that I have gone some way in clarifying my “position” but it looks like we will have to agree to disagree. I wish I could change your point of view because the vast majority of folks down there are good people who come from all walks of life.

For what it‘s worth and after all of this time on behalf of the folks that I know please pass on my apology to your friends we do not condone what happened.

Charles Kelly says:

02:44pm | 14/01/10

In the midst of the media frenzy surrounding the Cronulla incident, naturally your friends’ attack was reported in the news, right James? Pretty much everything else was. I saw a whole lot of coverage, but I don’t recall even a hint of the incident you described? You said that on a public train, “he and his family were accosted by a group of white youths with flags painted on their faces” while on their way home from Cronulla - BEFORE any of the “trouble” started (as you said, it was only “brewing” at that stage). So why do you think the youths you described would have been on a train heading AWAY from Cronulla? It seems a little odd to me? When a four-year-old girl is “kicked in the face” and a man is “severely beaten” on a public train there are witnesses, and of course medical treatment is required - therefore there would be records of the incident AND media coverage. So it should be really easy for you to prove beyond any doubt you didn’t make the whole thing up? Right James?Perhaps amidst all the other extensive coverage completely saturating the media in the days following the Cronulla incident, it’s purely coincidental that I happened to miss any mention of the (alleged) incident you described? Right James?

Thank you and good night! says:

01:43pm | 28/01/10

Until I know who murdered this guy and what their ethnic background is I will NOT for one second consider that Australia’s entire poulation is racist.

I choose not to lump entire ethnic groups or nationalities into one group because of the actions of one sick and twisted individual.

Generalisation is going to cause WW3.

Jason B says:

10:30pm | 28/01/10

Im orginally from New Zealand and Ive been living in Australia for about four years and while most Australia are not intentionally racist there is a very strong racist undercurrent in society. I believe most Aussies simply don’t realise the level of racism.

Merry says:

07:06am | 29/01/10

I propose a new method to add to the hysteria.

For all women who are targeted as crime victims, we should cry out that there is discrimination against women and Australia is genderist.

For all elderly who are targeted as crime victims, we should cry out that there is discrimination against old people and Australia is ageist.

So, for the uneducated who don’t know what racism is, it’s the assumption that your Race (be it Mongoloid, Negroid or Caucasoid) is superior to everyone else. It’s the same as the attitude of Gender, where one of the genders assume themselves to be superior to the other gender.
So it’s perfectly OK to call a woman a sl*t, but not call someone from a specific culture a derogatory name that invokes their culture. Note: I’m saying CULTURE not RACE.

Yes, racism can and does exist. If one person is targeted specifically because of their heritage, and because the victimiser holds an irrational hatred towards those of that heritage, that is known as MURDER.
If two people apply for a job, and the one making the selection is racist, he/she will choose the “superior” candidate based upon their race. THAT is racism. When ability is tied to race, and people are overlooked because of physical features instead of ability, THAT IS RACISM. Name calling and general hatred of a particular group of people is not racism.

But people like to bandy that word around because it provides results. One study in the states found that 87% of all fouls called in the NBA were against blacks, and there was a cry of “racism.” This was until someone with half a brain pointed out that the percentage of NBA players that are black is in the 90s.

Common sense. That, and manners, make the world go around smoothly.

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