I don’t usually quote Rodney Adler. He’s not really my type of role model.

Who nose if he's real or not?

But he said something during the HIH Royal Commission which has stuck with me. I can’t remember the exact context but he was being cross-examined and asked about why he covered up certain financial issues or didn’t report others. His response was: he had to keep the lie alive.

That would have been about 10 years ago now and suddenly “keep the lie alive” is running through my head, particularly now I have a small child and it’s Christmas.

Should I ‘keep the lie alive’ and introduce Santa? Or should I raise a realist?

A lot of people will say I’m over thinking this infinitesimal issue. When there are kids starving in Africa (and in the less advantaged suburbs of my own city in Australia), why am I labouring such a small joy? Why not just give the kid this fantasy?

Probably because I didn’t really have Santa when I was a child. My brother killed Santa very early and I had to pretend for the sake of my next door neighbour who still believed in Santa.

I’ll call her Melinda to preserve her dignity. Melinda was a year older than I was. I thought she was a bit silly about having to go to the local haberdasherer when Santa was getting his pre-Christmas briefing from the children. But she had to sit on his lap and rattle off a list of things she really wanted, while her mother listened and tried to memorise it.

At some point, Melinda’s mother must have worked out that if she could get her to write the list, she had a better chance of buying the right thing. Melinda struggled with writing these letters and as she laboured over it at the kitchen table her mother would peer over her shoulder and remind her to put the exact colour or name of the toy she wanted.

Then the letter had to be posted – into her own letterbox, of course – and for the next two or three weeks, Melinda would behave herself for fear of not getting the Barbie hairdressing thing she’d asked for.

I remembered this yesterday as I bought more dried fruit and glacé cherries and sang “Santa Claus is Coming to Town” which was being piped through the supermarket.

“He sees you when you’re sleeping
He knows when you’re awake
He knows if you’ve been bad or good
He’s omnipotent! For goodness sake!”

Yeah, alright. But there’s no harm in teaching your child big words like deciduous.

Melinda would also leave out a longneck and nuts for Santa. With the wisdom of age, I realise now the welcoming refreshment is a sign of what the parents like. Melinda’s dad wanted a XXXX and a few beer nuts on Christmas Eve.

Will I get my daughter to put out a bottle of Wirra Wirra and a block of Dairy Milk? Do fathers really want a biscuit and warm milk?

While I never really had Santa, thanks to my brother, his children did have Santa.

When my nephew was six or seven I made some remark that Santa didn’t exist. I was working on the theory that the schoolyard takes care of a lot of these myths and by now it would be safe to talk freely about the existence of the man in the red suit.

The look of blind panic on my nephew’s face – it was two days before Christmas – made me feel like a total heel. The look from my brother was pure “I will kill you”.

I was asked to recant and never to raise the issue of rabbits or tooth fairies either.

You can see why I’m a bit reluctant to join the Santa Conspiracy. Or “Santagate”.
But if I’m going to do it, I’m going to do it right. With the thought “keep the lie alive” in my head, I sat down to wrap some presents last night. How do you perpetuate this conspiracy that there’s a guy who lives at the North Pole who has a workshop of elves who spend the year making toys and wrapping them?

Clearly there would have to be some economies in paper and time per unit wrapped. I chose red and green tissue paper. You can open it up, flatten it out and pop the toy on and start wrapping. There’s no cutting or finesse folding needed. One sheet can be folded down for small items. Large items get two sheets.

I’m no Henry Ford, but I do know that many large call centres like their workers to meet the averages and keep calls short and concise. I believe elves would be required to wrap fast, not necessarily neatly.

While I am very precise with the folds and corners of the gifts I give to non-believers, gifts wrapped by elves have none of that. No ribbons, no perfect corner. Sometimes the paper is already ripped.

Spike Milligan used to create tiny little letters from fairies and leave them for his children. He went to the extreme of making envelopes with stamps. Perhaps this is better for when she can read.

Now… reindeer footprints and sleigh marks: anyone got any ideas?

144 comments

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    • LeftRightOut® says:

      05:28am | 23/12/11

      What’s wrong with people these days… just give the poor little beggars their Santa and stop trying to adultise (sic) the kids.
      Tell you what, if my young kids come home from kinder upset because some wanker of a parent with an over-inflated opinion of their kids ability to be a “realist” decides to destroy the idea of Santa, you wouldn’t want me at your Christmas drinks.

      Trust me, your trendy friends won’t care if you keep the lie alive as you say… and if they do, tell them to piss off and get some new friends grin

      Merry Christmas, especially to your little one.

    • Unionist says:

      05:52am | 23/12/11

      Leaving santa out of it is trying adultise??? your kids, is that even a word….. Bahahahaha now I’ve heard it all. Thats the thing about you imaginary friends believers, you beleive you have the only way and you like force it onto other people. If you ever turned up to my end of year drinks with that atitude you’d get a right flogging before you were booted out the back door.

    • Tubesteak says:

      08:05am | 23/12/11

      I agree with LeftrightOut. I see no harm in letting the kids have a bit of fun in the belief and all the magic of Xmas.

      I used to do that as a young fella. We’d leave a beer and some biscuits out for Santa and some water out for the reindeer. We’d also do the Xmas list thing. It was fun. The build-up and anticipation of the event is some of the best things about childhood.

      All the grinches can go suck it.

    • AdamC says:

      08:45am | 23/12/11

      LeftRightOut and Tubesteak, I completely agree. Fantasy and imagination are part of childhood, there is no harm in it.

      Unionist, I dare say your end of year drinks would be a rather grim affair if all the attendees were inveterate cynics like you!

    • neo says:

      09:11am | 23/12/11

      Yeah, I suppose it adds a bit of fun for the kiddies. But I never believed that he was real, and my parents telling me he was pissed me off because they were treating me like a fool lol. So if my future kids figure it out for themselves, I’m not gonna try convince them otherwise. Hardest thing would be explaining to them why every country has a different version of Santa though.

      Not gonna bs them about the easter bunny or tooth fairy or other such nonsense.

    • Brad Coward says:

      10:10am | 23/12/11

      Ms Thornton, you sound like a real fun person to be around regardless of the season.

      Not !!!!

    • Little Joe says:

      10:11am | 23/12/11

      More repetative childish dribble published by The Punch.

    • Cookie Monster says:

      11:24am | 23/12/11

      Of the 89 posts on this blog 20 are from acotrel - that over 20%. He must be bored today -

    • Fiona says:

      04:36pm | 24/12/11

      I’m with you. They’ll be adult soon enough, cynical teenagers even before. My youngest, now 8, has just started to askif Santa is real. Instead of the automatic yes I used to give her, I now ask her what she thinks. She’s old enough now, but in the meantime her excitement has been good for all the family. None of my older kids resent the Santa myth.

    • Unionist says:

      05:33am | 23/12/11

      The only imaginary friends allowed in our house are ones the kids make up themselves. And yes they do know santa isn’t real just like the Easter bunny, fairies at the bottom of the garden and most importantly God of any flavour.

    • Alf says:

      06:23am | 23/12/11

      @unionist. I expect your kids always have their socialist indoctrination to look back on. Look….Tony Abbott has horns.

    • acotrel says:

      06:55am | 23/12/11

      @Alf
      Only the one that he always holds !

    • jf says:

      07:58am | 23/12/11

      Given all the make believe economic and political policy you believe in it’s a bit mean-spirited to not let your kids have their childhood fantasies.

    • Rico says:

      09:01am | 23/12/11

      Love your way of *not* brain washing your kids (make sure you read that with a very strong tone of sarcasm). And they say atheists aren’t religious. Laugh.

    • neo says:

      09:21am | 23/12/11

      Well, no one can know that God isn’t real, so I doubt your kids are in that position.

    • acotrel says:

      10:32am | 23/12/11

      @Rico
      There is no excuse for telling lies.  Shape up or ship out !
      As for Gillar’d's ‘lie’, she ‘did the crime, and has done the time’.  Others have done multiple misdemeanors, and continue to make a habit of it !

    • Wynston Cruso says:

      11:01am | 23/12/11

      Unionist, do your kids know there is no God through their own decisions and life experiences or because you’ve told them there isn’t one? If the latter, then they hardly *know* anything themselves, and all you’ve done is indoctrinated them into non-belief, just like the religious nutters you claim to oppose.

    • jf says:

      11:07am | 23/12/11

      acotrel says:11:32am | 23/12/11

      “There is no excuse for telling lies.”

      God you’re a bore acotrel.

    • Troy Flynn says:

      01:14pm | 23/12/11

      Wynston Cruso says:12:01pm | 23/12/11

      Unionist, do your kids know there is no God through their own decisions and life experiences or because you’ve told them there isn’t one? If the latter, then they hardly *know* anything themselves, and all you’ve done is indoctrinated them into non-belief, just like the religious nutters you claim to oppose.

      What’s the difference between a parent telling a child that god exists and telling them it doesn’t? As Richard Dawkins pointed out in his documentary. “Why do we automatically label children from birth, with their parents religion? We would rightly be horrified if parents started lableling their children by their own political beliefs.” Oh look, theres a Labour child over there being picked on by a Liberal, Green and Independant party child. Quick, run over to that group of Nationals children, they’l protect you. See, stupid isn’t it.

      I was labelled Catholic while growing up as that was my parents religion. (Which they only gave lip service to by guilt tripping of other more devout relatives) I renounced it by age 10. Santa too for that matter. I’m with Unionist. Teach them the truth from the start and they will grow to respect you.

    • sir ronald bradnam says:

      05:52am | 23/12/11

      Your comment:We keep the God/allah myths alive so why not another one. At least I cant think of any acts of voilence were ever committed in santas name. All santas work appears to be for the good, no brainwashing or judgements handed down to individuals by him.

    • mick says:

      06:25am | 23/12/11

      You and many others might not believe that there is a God ronald.  You are welcome to your beliefs.

      Santa is about kids.  Yes its dream world but kids grow up soon enough so maybe good to leave them alone whilst they can still avoid reality.

    • Trevor says:

      06:32am | 23/12/11

      A fatwa is waged against pine trees (Christmas trees) every November/December in the name of Santa! And lets not forget his barbaric imprisonment of magical reindeer and sweatshops full of elves.

    • Al says:

      06:43am | 23/12/11

      sir ronald bradnam re: “no brainwashing or judgements handed down to individuals by him”
      No, telling kids that if they are good they get presents and if ‘naughty’ get a lump of coal isn’t brainwashing? Being on Santas naughty or nice list isn’t him judging you?
      “I cant think of any acts of voilence were ever committed in santas name.” Depends on your definition of ‘violence’. Many animals have dies to produce all the Christmas food (and much Santa themed) .
      And if you actualy go back to the origin (not St Nicholas who came much later, but the old pagan beliefs) there was a guy who rode around in a sleigh at the winter solstice who would meet out punishment to anyone caught outside. Tended to wear red too. Just wasn’t called santa.
      This was later sanetised and rebadged as the Santa we see today, Santa is an old Pagan God and many lives were sacrificed to him (not necasarily human).

    • acotrel says:

      07:04am | 23/12/11

      @mick
      ‘Santa is about kids.  Yes its dream world but kids grow up soon enough so maybe good to leave them alone whilst they can still avoid reality. ‘

      But what about when they get past voting age and believe in people like Tony Abbott ?

    • acotrel says:

      07:12am | 23/12/11

      @Trevor
      ‘sweatshops full of elves. ‘

      And offshore too, to avoid the OHS laws, and undermine the realistic wages !

    • marley says:

      07:54am | 23/12/11

      Most of you guys need to take a deep breath, and relax.  Santa isn’t real, any more than Rumpelstiltskin or Jack in the Bean Stalk or the Friendly Giant - so what?  No harm in a little fantasy.  And for once, acotrel, leave politics out of it.

      Merry Christmas to all.

    • neo says:

      09:23am | 23/12/11

      Phew, what a relief, so I don’t have to give my first born to Rumpelstiltskin like our deal stated?

    • mick says:

      11:25am | 23/12/11

      As you well know acotrel Tony Abbott is working for big business and will not do anything for average Australians.  They won’t even do anything for small business, the engine room of the country.  So why does anyone give Tony the time of day?  I mean I know you are a Labor hater and I can see where you are coming from but would you really put Dracula in charge of the Blood Bank.

      Ok I bit acotrel.  Maybe Santa will bring you a vote independent card for Christmas.  Seriously though have a nice Christmas.  Cheers.

    • marley says:

      05:55pm | 23/12/11

      @neo - well, I thought you were old enough to know the truth about Rumpelstiltskin.  Sorry about that.

    • acotrel says:

      06:05am | 23/12/11

      Telling lies to kids can be really good fun, when their little eyes widen with wonder, and they give you such unwarranted credibility !
      Most mature adults are aware that our social system runs on bullshit, and are usually happier having reconciled that knowledge.  Why shouldn’t we start as we intend to continue and deceive kids at an early age ? They will eventually wake up and rebel !
      Tony Abbott - TAKE NOTE ! !

    • RJB says:

      08:11am | 23/12/11

      Every time I scroll down on any post of any story, the continuity is shot by the multiple rantings of this acotrel wanker, get a life you moron, your obsession with Abbott and all things Liberal has you seriously disturbed.

    • rabbit says:

      09:06am | 23/12/11

      Why the space between the completion of a sentence and the punctuation ?  TAKE NOTE ! !

    • acotrel says:

      10:07am | 23/12/11

      @RJB
      The thought that people might vote the idiots into power gives me extreme anxiety.

    • Wynston Cruso says:

      11:08am | 23/12/11

      acotrel - We have to put up with your idiots who are currently in power, so the least you could do is not carry on obsessively about other peoples idiots.

    • philip says:

      11:13am | 23/12/11

      acotrel already too late the idiots already did vote a bunch of fools into power all because she was the first “female” pm and look at what we have now a government that refuses to listen to its employers ie us.

    • acotrel says:

      06:09am | 23/12/11

      Santa Claus brought the Carbon Tax to Australia The farts from his reindeer are the main cause of climate change !- I wouldn’t lie to you !

    • nihonin says:

      06:53am | 23/12/11

      ‘Santa Claus brought the Carbon Tax to Australia’, you may just have it right acotrel, Kris Kringle was red head before he became known as Santa.  You’re a smart man, you know where I’m going with this…........

      Merry Christmas and a safe 2012 to you and your acotrel.

    • Brad Coward says:

      10:13am | 23/12/11

      Which reindeer did you spring from, then ?

    • acotrel says:

      10:41am | 23/12/11

      @nihonin
      I thought she used to work at the Golden Arches restaurant.

    • Trevor says:

      06:22am | 23/12/11

      My 4 year old asked a question about Santa the other day that got me thinking:

      “Daddy, can Santa see me everywhere?”

      That got me thinking. Does Santa, as personified by the poem in the article, condition children to accept the belief in a omnipresent and all-seeing god in later life? Is this intentional or a religious ‘coincidence?’

      So my answer was:

      “No buddy, on Christmas eve Santa calls mummy and Daddy for an update on your annual level of goodness, or ALG.’

      I don’t want my kids thinking that everything they do is being spied upon, whether it be by Santa, Jesus, Buddha or Baal.

      Other than that though, I think the idea of Santa is fine. For children. Similar belief for adults in the equivalent, ‘god’, who rewards good behaviour and punishes bad is childish. IMHO.

    • acotrel says:

      06:54am | 23/12/11

      A bit of paranoia at an early age cannot be all bad, especially when coupled with lashings of guilt ? How else can you exercise control ?

    • acotrel says:

      06:24am | 23/12/11

      Most LNP supporters probably still believe in Santa Claus ! There is a common issue which occurs regularly - the balance between democracy and control. People who are used to believing lies are more compliant ! Tell them what you think they want to hear.  I’ve learned that from watching Tony Abbott !

    • nihonin says:

      06:58am | 23/12/11

      acotrel, check my reply to your one concerning the CT, remember Santa was once a red head and a lie, I have a sense of deja vu.

    • Alf says:

      07:29am | 23/12/11

      @acotrel. I see you are still under the spell of the wicked witch of Canberra.

      Don’t lecture us about ‘democracy’, when the ALP is forcing policies on the public that the majority of us don’t want.

    • acotrel says:

      07:37am | 23/12/11

      @Alf
      The current government was elected under the normal democratic process.  It reflects the attitudes of the majority of voters.  If you don’t like that - STIFF !

    • acotrel says:

      06:49am | 23/12/11

      I think I must have selective cognitive dissonance.  Whenever I detect lies, I simply shut off and don’t even hear any more from the same source.  I have young rellie, who sadly when in conversation, I never hear what she says to me.  Commercial TV is wasted on me, I never even hear the advertisements,  Even immediately after I’ve watched them, I cannot tell you what they were about. I have to force myself to concentrate when listening to Tony Abbott - ‘some things are so bad, that they are good’ ! John Howard was always good for a laugh too !

    • nihonin says:

      10:02am | 23/12/11

      ‘Whenever I detect lies, I simply shut off and don’t even hear any more from the same source.  I have young rellie, who sadly when in conversation’ , ‘I think I must have selective cognitive dissonance’.  No it doesn’t acotrel, especially where your relative is concerned, it just means your a rude ignorant, bitter and spiteful old man.

    • acotrel says:

      10:14am | 23/12/11

      @nihonin
      I’m all of those things simply because I won’t be lied to ? Sorry but I won’t cop continuous crap or poison in my life ! And some have found that out when I’ve given them the bum’s rush for indulging in it ! (It’s the main reason I dislike your beloved leader so intensely.)

    • nihonin says:

      10:31am | 23/12/11

      ‘It’s the main reason I dislike your beloved leader so intensely’, I never would have guessed, I always thought you were just alluding that you might.  Sorry to burst your bubble, but ol Tones isn’t my leader, you and other Labor rusties can say what you like about him, personally I don’t care, but it certainly shows the kind of person you are.  As for Julia, pretty much the same, I don’t care what Liberal rusties say about her.  It just shows us non rusties how bigoted the members or sycophants of any political party are.  I also believe both Julia and Tony as leaders, really leave a lot to be desired.

    • acotrel says:

      10:50am | 23/12/11

      @nihonin
      That’s like saying ‘none of them are worth a pinch of the proverbial’ when a major deficiency in one of them is pointed out ! - Not much of an argument ? Believing in him is just like believing in Santa Claus - A FANTASY ! !

    • nihonin says:

      07:07am | 23/12/11

      I’ll probably get bagged for this, but I remember watching all those stop go motion chrissy specials that were around in the late 60’s and early 70’s.  They were harmless and I have them for my grand child (eventually maybe grand children), the message I got from them, is the spirit of Christmas is to share all that you are capable of with your family and all people.  Even if it is just once a year, we have designated days for all sorts of things to celebrate or remember.

      On that note…..........Merry Christmas and a safe and prosperous 2012 to you all.

    • Vivian says:

      07:29am | 23/12/11

      It is amazing. The war on Christmas and by default God, Christianity and even the LNP, according to some who need to get more it seem,s continues in The Punch. It is not so much sad as inane.

      Interesting piece, to a certain extent, though equating some joy to children as a lie is quite mean. I also query the juxtaposition of kids joy and starving people. Why do people have so much middle class guilt in their lives? I am not ashamed to be “comfortable”? I do not need to justify anything in my life with a comparison to or thought for “starving African kids”. Does everything we do have to be measured against illegal immigrants, the small subset of homosexuals wanting to get married, the less fortunate for whatever reason or thoughts and shame about my carbon footprint as I watch Cate Blanchett zoom off to the Hunter on Packers helicopter as one does.

      Interesting thing for people to look at. Click on the Christmas tag at the top of the story. Why did The Punch feminise Christmas so much this year? Did we really need all those stories about Christmas written by woman? So much female angst over a simple Christian and now mainstream celebration. A lot of issues, female anti-christian guilt ridden issues, tossed at us. Perpetual hate against pillars of our society. Makes you wonder about the agenda.

    • acotrel says:

      07:42am | 23/12/11

      I’m so comfy !  I’m aboard, pull up the ladder ! I always thought Christmas was about christianity ?

    • nihonin says:

      07:43am | 23/12/11

      Interesting piece, to a certain extent, though equating some joy to children as a lie is quite mean. I also query the juxtaposition of kids joy and starving people. Why do people have so much middle class guilt in their lives? I am not ashamed to be “comfortable”? I do not need to justify anything in my life with a comparison to or thought for “starving African kids”. Does everything we do have to be measured against illegal immigrants, the small subset of homosexuals wanting to get married, the less fortunate for whatever reason or thoughts and shame about my carbon footprint as I watch Cate Blanchett zoom off to the Hunter on Packers helicopter as one does.

      Nicely said Vivian, I’m comfortable with what I have, I get a bit of a laugh watching all the bleeders tie themselves in knots trying to justify why they have more than someone else and why they have it so much better.  Maybe it’s because you’ve done activities throughout your life that have lead to where you are at this point, enjoy what you’ve earnt.  I give to various charities, not just money but some of my time as well, I use my skills as a tradie to assist where I can, that’s my ‘tithe’ to society as I see it.

    • Al says:

      08:00am | 23/12/11

      “though equating some joy to children as a lie is quite mean”.
      You might see it as mean, but a lie is a lie is a lie, no matter what justification you want to provide for it. Sometimes the truth is cruel and nasty (that’s life!), that still doesn’t mean lying is justified. As such any ‘christian’ that perpetrates the Santa myth to their children is in breach of their OWN religous rules (you know, that pesky commandment about ‘thou shall not lie’).

    • Chris L says:

      09:01am | 23/12/11

      @Vivian - Just when was this war declared? How many casualties have occured thus far. How many Christians have those nasty atheists fragged to date? I would estimate the kill count would be somewhere around zero, yes? Certainly got a lot of catching up to do if they want to compete with Christianity!

    • acotrel says:

      10:23am | 23/12/11

      @Al
      ‘You might see it as mean, but a lie is a lie is a lie, no matter what justification you want to provide for it.’

      I totally agree, and there are very few circunsta nces w here I would ever tell lies or deceive.  My reputation a nd self-esteem are worth much more than the usual potential benefits.  The only time I might lie is when someone is dying in front of me, an d the truth might cause them anxiety.  Every other time, I’d rather fight.
      I have NEVER lied to my kids - EVER ! And they have never lied to me.
      To do otherwise would be an affront to common decency.
      And Tony Abbott can get stuffed !

    • Joan Bennett says:

      07:43am | 23/12/11

      Alf, I’m a conservative right wing nutcase and I don’t believe in lying to children either (it’s a pity you think that non-socialists should be dishonest, though).  Nearly everyone I know reckons they felt betrayed by their folks when they found out their was no father christmas.  Most of them said, “Why did my parents lie to me?” on the matter.  We teach our children that honesty is the best policy and then blow the policy out of the water throughout their early years (father christmas, easter bunny, tooth fairy, god/s, parents are clairvoyant).  No wonder there are so many messed up adults around…

    • Georgy says:

      09:03am | 23/12/11

      My parents let me and my siblings believe in Father Christmas and I let my children believe in Father Christmas.  It made Christmas a great deal of fun and none of us are any nuttier than most people.

    • neo says:

      09:30am | 23/12/11

      I was down right angry that my parents were lying to me, as I never believed that any of the Santa/Grandpa Frost/Per Noel were real, but I was made to write freaking letters to him.

    • acotrel says:

      10:26am | 23/12/11

      @Joan
      I agree with your comment, there is already too much bullshit in the world.

    • Alf says:

      07:21pm | 23/12/11

      @Joan. For once I agree with acotrel.

      Especially where you say “I’m a conservative right wing nutcase”.

      Even some of us conservatives have limits (e.g. Katter, Hanson)

    • Joan Bennett says:

      07:47am | 23/12/11

      sir ronald bradnam, what about the kids who punch another kid’s face in because they say there’s no father christmas, when their parents told them he exists?  I can’t tell you how busy the teachers at my primary school were breaking up these fights in December every year.  And the fights that siblings have over the presents?  Teaching kids to lust after “material things” to the point they will kill each other over them.  Nice one, Santa!

    • jf says:

      08:04am | 23/12/11

      “I can’t tell you how busy the teachers at my primary school were breaking up these fights in December every year. “

      That’s bullshit.

      I’ve never met one person who was messed up because their parents indulged in some fantasy and make-believe.

      I’ve never heard of a single fight between kids over Santa: and my kids go to a pretty tough school.

    • Chris L says:

      09:04am | 23/12/11

      @JF - I bet my kids would beat your kids in a fight!

      I actually felt pretty annoyed at my parents when I discovered that Santa and co. were fictional. I got over it fairly quickly but I learned a level of distrust, which is probably not a bad thing.

    • jf says:

      09:58am | 23/12/11

      Chris L says:10:04am | 23/12/11

      “I bet my kids would beat your kids in a fight!”

      I have two little girlie girls so I’m betting you are right.

      “I actually felt pretty annoyed at my parents when I discovered that Santa and co. were fictional. I got over it fairly quickly but I learned a level of distrust, which is probably not a bad thing.”

      See I just don’t get that. I have no recollection at all of when I discovered that Santa wasn’t real and certainly bare no ill-will towards my parents on that score. In fact, my memories of pre-age 10 are wonderful, carefree fond memories. I remember trying to stay up for Santa, I remember the excited anticipation in the days leading up to Christmas.

      Whilst I do understand that my experience isn’t representative of everyone elses I really find it difficult to believe that such a minor, sugary deception leads to the sorts of traumatic consequences that Joan et al allude to.

      As for fighting over Christmas presents, don’t blame failed parenting on Santa. It’s as weak as piss.

    • Chris L says:

      10:33am | 23/12/11

      @JF - Actually your girls would win because my kids are fictional.

    • nihonin says:

      10:39am | 23/12/11

      ‘have no recollection at all of when I discovered that Santa wasn’t real and certainly bare no ill-will towards my parents on that score’.  That’s because jf. you’re not a social progressive.  They remember everything from the day they were born and any perceived slight against them or their ideals should be quashed for the sake of future generations, lest they too have to suffer the horror of living in a world where other people can and do enjoy life and all the crap it just happens to include.

    • Chris L says:

      11:14am | 23/12/11

      @Nilhonin - You won’t be getting on Santa’s list with such a narky attitude!

    • Wynston Cruso says:

      11:15am | 23/12/11

      I just had an awesome idea for a new reality TV show, it’ll make bum fights look like a charity event, thanks jf and Chris L smile

    • jf says:

      11:59am | 23/12/11

      Wynston Cruso says:12:15pm | 23/12/11

      “I just had an awesome idea for a new reality TV show, it’ll make bum fights look like a charity event, thanks jf and Chris L”

      To be frank I’m struggling to see how this would be a commercial winner.

      Punters can already see kids fighting on the ABC during Question Time.

    • Wynston Cruso says:

      12:16pm | 23/12/11

      *boom tish*

    • Joan Bennett says:

      07:54am | 23/12/11

      mick, I’m really sorry the adult world of realism is so miserable for you that you think children should live in a fantasy world.  Personally, me and pretty well everyone I grew up with was fine with reality.  It was when we found that our parents were trying to keep it from us that we had problems…  Seriously, the fact that so many children are devastated when they discover the lies their parents (the very people they should be able to trust over anyone else) told them should indicate that the lies have to stop.

    • marley says:

      08:31am | 23/12/11

      @Joan Bennett - you have an interesting take on childhood.  I can’t imagine a childhood being complete without fantasy.  If parents are to blame for telling their kids about Santa Claus, should they also be punished for giving their kids books like The Wind in the Willows (after all, there are no talking toads and waterrats) or the fairy tales of Hans Christian Andersen (tin soldiers coming to life and tiny girls growing out of flowers) or the Grimm brothers (I mean, pumpkins just don’t turn into coaches and there are no fairy godmothers)? 

      Imagination is a powerful and wonderful gift, and one to be nurtured, not denied.  If Santa is a fantasy, so what?

    • acotrel says:

      10:38am | 23/12/11

      @marley
      Telling your kids that Santa is real, is a ‘sin of commission’ ! Allowing them to read books which create a picture in their minds is something quite different. Your information comes with parental authority, and trust on the part of the kids.

    • marley says:

      11:16am | 23/12/11

      @acotrel - Let me get this straight.  If my grandmother told me about Little Red Riding Hood and the big bad wolf, complete with sound effects, that was a “sin of commission”  but if she just gave me a story book containing the same tale, that would be a healthy exercise in imagination-building?

      So what you’re saying is, it’s okay for grandma to give me a book full of fantasies but not okay for her to read one of the stories in it to me.

      Frankly, that’s a pathetic (and logically unsound) argument.

    • Chris L says:

      01:26pm | 23/12/11

      The way I read Acotrel’s response was it would be a “sin of commission” if your grandmother told you that Little Red Riding Hood was a real person or the story based on a historical fact.

      I tend to agree with this outlook as a child instinctively trusts the word of their parents and if made to believe such things are real they are being set up for a humiliating eye-opening, probably in front of their peers.

      I think fantasy is a good thing, as long as the boundary between it and reality is understood.

    • marley says:

      02:32pm | 23/12/11

      @Chris L - perhaps you’re right, but to my mind, you’d be guilty of the same sin of commission in giving a child one of those books unless you made it very clear to him or her first that everything in the books was untrue.  After all, whether you tell the tale yourself or give the book to the child, you’re still using your position of authority, aren’t you? 

      But what a downer it would be to be lectured about the non-reality of toads driving motor cars or tin-soldiers coming to life, or wolves dressing up as Granny, before you even got a chance to read the stories.  How would your imagination take flight? 

      I remember early childhood as a magical time - exploring the real world but imagining a world that never was, full of talking animals and mermaids and unicorns, and, yes, Santas.  The fantasy fades, and with it the magic, as you get older - but damned if I think it should never be there.  And I’m grateful to my parents (and my Grandma) for ensuring it happened.

    • acotrel says:

      05:38am | 26/12/11

      @marley
      You need to teach your kids about research, and synthesis of ideas ! Your comment seem to show an ignorance about why scientific papers are subjected to peer review.  Do you believe in AGW ?

    • marley says:

      10:45am | 26/12/11

      @acotrel - your remark is a complete non-sequiter. What on earth does enjoying the Wind in the Willows or, for that matter, Harry Potter, have to do with peer-review or global warming?  And why should you believe, as you apparently do, that enjoying fiction or even fantasy, and understanding science, should be mutually exclusive?  .

    • acotrel says:

      05:57am | 28/12/11

      @marley
      Only a very naive kid might totally believe what they read.  However if it comes from you with parental authority and credibility, that is different.  What you are doing when you fill your kids full of bullshit about Santa, is abusing their trust in you.  Sooner or later they will have to grow up, and be able to draw conclusions from what they read. Then you will be shown to be a liar !  No scientist on this planet reads only one paper on a particular subject, then forms a belief on the basis of it.  Research always involves a wide reading regimen.

    • marley says:

      07:29am | 28/12/11

      @acotrel - if you’re the sort of parent who claims to be an expert on everything, to know all the answers, then I might agree with you. Your kids believe everything you say.  The rest of us, however, let our kids see that we’re fallible and imperfect, and don’t have all the answers or know all the truths.  And our kids grow up knowing they have to figure out truths, including about Santa, for themselves. 

      Learning to sort out fantasy from reality is quite an important part of growing up.

      And I still have no idea what your comments about peer-review have to do with any of this.

    • meh says:

      07:59am | 23/12/11

      One of the coolest parts of being a parent is watching the joy of make beleive in your kids.

      One friend of mine used the fake snow out the front of his house and put hoof prints and sleigh track marks leading up the driveway. I thought that was pretty cool.

      Create a personalised video from Santa for you little ones. Absolutely brilliant site.
      http://www.portablenorthpole.tv/home

      If you wanta kit to leave evidence of Santa’s visit (or just get ideas to do yourself).
      http://www.santaproof.com/

      For the kids, how to get evidence of Santa, now if they just happened to capture Santa on video….
      http://www.wikihow.com/Get-Evidence-of-Santa-Claus

      Each year we get to see how far the jolly man has got, they even have a santa tracking App this year.  1 day and 9 hours until take-off.
      http://www.noradsanta.org/en/

    • Julia Thornton says:

      09:47am | 23/12/11

      Thanks, Meh!

      I was hoping people would help me with ideas like this.

    • Occam's Blunt Razor says:

      12:33pm | 23/12/11

      I’ve got a 4 and a 6 year old and Christmas time rocks.

      Did portablenorthpole last night - they were so stoked.

      Get them to leave carrots out the front and a bucket of water for the reindeer.  Empty the bucket and chew one of the carrots up and spit it around a bit, put the rest of the carrots away.

      They’ll work it out soon enough.

    • GreatDamo says:

      01:07pm | 23/12/11

      I know of one mum of 4 who went the whole hog with Santa’s evidence. Not only did she have sleigh marks in the lawn, but she also arranged - get ready for this - horse droppings around the lawn to show the little tackers that reindeer were on the lawn!!!
      Apparently she had to acquire the faeces a couple of days in advance - I can’t imagine the smell coming from the back shed before Xmas!
      Needless to say, she didn’t bother with going to that extreme again - just the standard milk & cookies bit, with a chewed up carrot outside.

    • Mahhrat says:

      08:07am | 23/12/11

      @Julia:  Let me put it to you this way:

      I have a daughter I see weekend about.  I’m more festive than most, so Santa goes positively nuts at my place.  Fortunately, I have a pretty good relationship with my ex, so my girl usually spends Xmas morning at my place.

      Traditionally, Santa & the Easter Bunny would leave some kind of challenge.  These were some kind of treasure hunt - clues with small prizes and lead a merry chase around the house.  Here’s an example clue from the 2011 search:

      “I couldn’t believe it when I saw this in here,
      Your dad has a piano in his house?!
      That’s classy and stylish, it must be <my partner’s> work
      We both know he’d never do that himself.

      Anyway, let’s rock on, there’s stuff to be found,
      Now, I must say I like my chocolate just so.
      But you can have chocolate pretty much however you like
      What’s in the house to make the chocolate flow?”

      (We have one of those stupid chocolate fountains.)

      Now, just a couple weeks ago, my daughter spoke with my partner, explaining that she knows the “Truth” about Santa. 

      My girl and I were at the shops next day:

      Me -  So, I understand you had a chat with about Santa?
      Em - <sheepishly> Yeah.
      Me - I see.  Why did you decide to raise it with her and not me?
      Em - Well, I’ve pretty much known for a couple years now, but I knew how much you enjoyed being Santa and the Bunny and I didn’t want to ruin it for you.
      Me - <lump in throat>.  That’s pretty awesome, actually, thank you.  <hugs>  Hang on though:  that explains why you didn’t tell me straight away, but why decide to tell me now?
      Em - Because I want to help!  I want to be Santa for my cousins, before they get too old (they’re 7).

      So this year, the letter that “Mrs Claus” has written to the kids, to get them to cast a spell on Uncle Me, whose magic will get them a trip to buy some new shoes, play mini golf and eat pizza, has been left unwrapped.  My girl will find me some “magic fairy dust” and help me wrap that one, so she can play along on Sunday and really learn the joy inherent in doing kind things for the people you care about.

      That’s why Santa should exist - not because he’s a consumerist myth, but because magic is real to children and that is a valuable thing we should let them keep for as long as we can.  Maybe I just did a good job of it, but my girl has most certainly learned the value of selflessness if done right, and I’m pretty sure she’ll do the same thing for her kids one day.

      After all, I learned the trade from my own father. 

      The other lesson it teaches - and it’s something I still use - is that you can always rely on “Santa” - whoever is your own - to go those extra miles for you.  My dad is still a cornerstone of my life, because I know what effort is involved and that he cared enough to do it for no reward - at least until now.

      Merry Christmas.

    • J says:

      08:33am | 23/12/11

      That’s beautiful.  I hope you and your family have an amazing christmas grin

    • Julia Thornton says:

      09:52am | 23/12/11

      I think that’s what I loved about the Spike Milligan story. Those little letters from fairies were tiny and handwritten with stamps and post marks.

      Thanks, Mahraht.

    • Dan Webster says:

      08:45am | 23/12/11

      The world is a fantasy. We all live in differing versions of what we think reality is.
      Why spoil that ?!

      It is up to US to make the world a magic place.

      Merry Christmas.

    • acotrel says:

      10:44am | 23/12/11

      @Dan
      You’ve just confirmed my opinion that most of the ideologues are delusional !

    • Dan Webster says:

      11:15am | 23/12/11

      Delusional !  -  We all are acrotel.

      The more you belief that you are normal, the more delusional you get.
      A “crazy” person will tell you they are perfectly normal and say that you are the “crazy” one.

    • Wynston Cruso says:

      11:17am | 23/12/11

      In other words, there is no spoon.

    • ba'al says:

      09:00am | 23/12/11

      ok, it really is not that black or white. My kids are atheists becuase we are all born atheists. They do not believe in santa becuase we build on trust from the start. However christmas is still magical, santa is up there with my little pony and strawberry shortcake. They have all the joy of fantasy, the magic of christmas without deliberatly misleading them.
      There really is a middle ground.
      Also my girls know not to spoil other kids beliefs. My eldest has a friend who actually believes in actual dragons. I explained it was no different from the grandmothers belief in jesus or my uncles belief that aliens built the pyramids. As long as the friend refrains from gathering up cattle to feed the dragons it really should not bother her.
      Basically, celebrate and tolerate people. Merry christmas

    • neo says:

      10:00am | 23/12/11

      We are born atheists? Yet every primitive tribe had their own deities, long before any mass religions? It’s inherently human to believe in God or gods, we are all born with that belief.

    • malohi says:

      10:34am | 23/12/11

      @neo
      That is some spurious logic.

    • Chris L says:

      10:57am | 23/12/11

      @Neo - We seem to all be born with a need to know about the universe along with a propensity toward spirituality, but nobody knows about particular deities, spirits or other such entities until they’re told about them.

    • neo says:

      10:59am | 23/12/11

      Not really, you can’t deny that it’s human nature to explain this world with reference to a higher being. Always been the case.

    • malohi says:

      11:14am | 23/12/11

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spurious_relationship
      Actually a good wiki article.

      There is a difference between having inate belief in gods, and just having a natural propensity toward cognitive dissonance regarding the unknown, and the easiest explanation is a magic man poofing things into existance.

    • neo says:

      12:13pm | 23/12/11

      So you agree with me. Human nature leans towards explaining this world through belief in higher beings. That’s the answer that occurs to people naturally, without propaganda or anything else. Our instinct is to believe in God or gods. So we are not born atheists, external sources turn people into atheists, moving them away from the natural state of being.

    • Chris L says:

      01:30pm | 23/12/11

      @Neo - In that regard humans have a natural propensity to believe in magic, monsters and boogeymen from birth.

      I think what Ba’al is saying is that no-one is born with a theism, that is something that has to be indoctrinated, and a person without a theism is an atheist.

    • ba'al says:

      02:41pm | 23/12/11

      @ Chris L,
      Yes, that is exactly what I mean.
      I myself am an atheist yet still have a feeling our spark survives death. Not our body or personality, but something maybe. Maybe that feeling reflects an ultimate truth or maybe a biological trait. I do however know I have no rational reason for my quiet faith, i do not share it but enjoy it. Be it from god or biology.
      Thiests seem to have trouble understanding that a feeling like that does not mean a specific god exists and definitely does not mean their god exists.
      I am an atheist at peace with my inherent irrationality and love of the divine. I am aware that divinity is a metaphor and those who claim to have divine revelation or follow such dogmas are either misled or misleading others.
      I liken faith in the divine to that feeling like someone is watching me (often it is the cat). Sometimes someone is, sometimes it is just nerves.
      An atheist will turn around and accept the evidence of whether or not someone is watching.
      A thiest will turn around, see no one but still claim there is someone there but they are just invisible, also the invisibl person says no one can eat ham or have sex before marriage. The thiest takes a feeling many of us have and claims knowledge that they have no evidence for.
      I am a true atheist, if God appears to me and a couple of other people who can corroborate his appearance i will believe. Until then I will enjoy feeling connected, keep an open mind but not ‘believe’ anything without reason.
      Neo, without reason means without reason.

    • Al; says:

      09:23am | 23/12/11

      To heck with it all…keep the lie alive - it’s fun and the littlies will know when to stop believing,

    • P. Darvio says:

      09:28am | 23/12/11

      If Christmas and Santa (Isn’t Santa is a secular tradition and not Christian…..?) are so important to Christians then why are Christians stealing a secular day to have their Public Holiday? The Christmas Public Holiday is being taking on Monday 26th – which is actually Boxing Day (which is a purely secular Holiday) – why aren’t Christians demanding that the Christmas Day Public Holiday is actually taken on the Sunday 25th and not the next day? I mean we have Australia Day Public Holiday on the actual day even if that is a Saturday or Sunday.

      Isn’t GOD more important for Christians (and their children) than an extra public holiday for Christians? – seems not. Seems Christians are only interested in having an extra Public Holiday rather than celebrating the alleged birth of Fictional Jesus Person.

      I just wish they wouldn’t steal a secular day for their party.

      Happy Holidays to all and a very special “Happy Holy Circumcision Day” for Christians on the 1st of January.

      http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2009/12/31/happy-holy-circumcision-day.html

    • P. Darvio says:

      11:01am | 23/12/11

      ....and may you find the lost “Holy Foreskin” and then bring back 1200 years of Foreskin Tradition- - then you can clone it and you will have your “second coming”

      Happy Boxing Day.

    • Dieter Moeckel says:

      09:29am | 23/12/11

      It’s funny thing really - I still ask my children at 38 and 40 to join in singing carols at Christmas time and go on egg hunts at easter - and I’m an dyed in the wool egalitarian anarcho-atheist. I daydream, cry in sad movies, sometimes read novels rather than non-fiction and like the fantasy of happy endings so I allow my granddaughters the fantasy of the tooth and other fairies, elves, Santa with flying reindeer, the easter bunny or bilbi, ogres, evil witches and Snugglepot and Cuddlepie and all the other fantasy that accompanies childhood - nah the fantasies that accompanies life.
      Last year the family gathered here at our place and we actually saw santa on his sleigh pulled by his reindeer - he was just behind the moon near that star there - “Did you see Santa?” “Where Opa?” “There near the moon.” and this year the grand daughter remembered, “Remember when we saw Santa last year Opa?” I melted but not with any thought of hypocrisy just simply love of the beautiful innocence of unspoilt childhood. And Santa came early this years and left present at the post box - “Did you tell santa what I wanted Opa?”  “Yes we did sweetheart. And because he knew you needed it now he brought it early.”

    • David Johnson says:

      09:35am | 23/12/11

      F*&%IN’ GRINCHES!!!!!

    • NicoleG says:

      10:02am | 23/12/11

      Agreed David!

    • dancan says:

      09:56am | 23/12/11

      Kids will have enough of their dreams and ideas crushed as they go up, leave santa alone and let them have some happy memories

    • acotrel says:

      10:04am | 23/12/11

      Great name for a rock group - ‘Santa Claus and the Believers’ ! !

    • Brad Coward says:

      10:07am | 23/12/11

      No matter how, no matter what, no matter when…...you have to appreciate an A-grade killjoy when she’s at work.

      Congratulations Ms Thornton !

    • Chucky says:

      10:20am | 23/12/11

      YOU HAVE TO START OUT LEARNING TO BELIEVE THE LITTLE LIES.

      “So we can believe the big ones?”

      YES. JUSTICE. MERCY. DUTY. THAT SORT OF THING.

      “They’re not the same at all!”

      YOU THINK SO? THEN TAKE THE UNIVERSE AND GRIND IT DOWN TO THE FINEST POWDER AND SIEVE IT THROUGH THE FINEST SIEVE AND THEN SHOW ME ONE ATOM OF JUSTICE, ONE MOLECULE OF MERCY. AND YET AND YET YOU ACT AS IF THERE IS SOME IDEAL ORDER IN THE WORLD, AS IF THERE IS SOME… SOME RIGHTNESS IN THE UNIVERSE BY WHICH IT MAY BE JUDGED.

      Terry Pratchett, Hogfather

    • Alf says:

      10:56am | 23/12/11

      Ding, ding, ding….warning…fruit cake alert.

    • philip says:

      12:18pm | 23/12/11

      alf if you didnt know terry pratchett is a very popular humorist his novels range from classic fantasy to industrialisation of the discworld “sort of” and hogfather is actually quite funny.

    • Alf says:

      07:13pm | 23/12/11

      Sorry…looked like it was just going totally bad. Next time - CAPS LOCK OFF (less scary).

    • sharon says:

      03:59pm | 24/12/11

      @ Alf, he was quoting a Pratchett character called DEATH, he talks in capitals. Very funny books, I recomend you give one a go. the first one is Colour of Magic but Mort gives you a really good insight to DEATH.

    • jf says:

      10:37am | 23/12/11

      To all those grey, soulless grinches those “little minds” referred to by Francis Pharcellus, the best response to the question of whether or not there is a Santa Claus was written over 100 years ago. I can’t improve on it so I will just post the link:

      http://www.newseum.org/yesvirginia/

      “how dreary would be the world if there were no Santa Claus”

      “There would be no childlike faith then, no poetry, no romance to make tolerable this existence. We should have no enjoyment, except in sense and sight.”

    • Kheiron says:

      04:04pm | 23/12/11

      Hell of a lot to attribute to the jolly fat man in the red suit.

      When people bring up this question I refer to my younger days when Christmas was waking up at midnight, running into the parents room and trying to drag them to the tree.
      Would I rather,
      A: Some omniscient North Polian bringing me gifts in reward for a year of good deeds.
      B: My parents giving me gifts they could afford because they loved me.

      Personally, I picked B.
      We didn’t have much growing up. Christmas was often the result of a trip to the local Salvation Army and a years worth of saving.
      I wouldn’t look at my second hand Teddy, then at the neighbours new Nintendo and wonder what I did wrong. I’d look at my mother’s smile and know that what I had under the tree was worth a lot more to me then any console.

      All up, that strikes me as being more in line with the ideals of the holiday anyway.

    • Al says:

      10:46am | 23/12/11

      Am I right in interpreting this comment as without a belief in a lie none of the other items would exist?
      What a sad view of the world, can’t you accept that humans are capable of beauty and consideration without a belief in a fictional character?
      BTW - Some of the best poetry (in my opinion of course) is purely descriptive of the natural world and has nothing to do with fictional characters.

    • marley says:

      12:43pm | 23/12/11

      And the greatest novels and plays all involve fictional characters.  It’s entirely possible to enjoy fiction and fantasy without actually believing in them.  I still enjoy Santa, and I haven’t believed in him since I was about four.  BTW, I enjoy science fiction too, but that doesn’t mean I believe we’ll be hit Warp 9 to another galaxy anytime soon.

    • NicoleG says:

      10:57am | 23/12/11

      After reading some of these grinchy, sad comments, I thought I’d test something out. Just to see how bad of a mother I was and still apparently am, by letting my children have the fantasy and believe in Santa.

      I just sent a msg to my two older children, 22 & 18, asking what would you do if I told miss 6 Santa wasn’t real. Here are their replies -

      Mr 22 - OMG don’t you dare mum. She’s too young. Not yet.

      Miss 18 - OMG!!! Why would you do that? I’d say you’ll ruin her life. Don’t tell her, let her find out herself. Let her be a happy kid for as long as she can. Don’t you dare.

      So there you have it. It’s not a lie, it’s a fantasy that every kid should be allowed to have.

    • Chris L says:

      02:14pm | 23/12/11

      “So there you have it. It’s not a lie, it’s a fantasy that every kid should be allowed to have.” - I feel the need to point out this verdict was really just the opinion of two people. We have plenty more opinions to read right here and not all of them agree with you.

    • NicoleG says:

      02:36pm | 23/12/11

      Frankly, I don’t give a flying shit what you think. My point was it’s absolute rubbish attempting to tell people that allowing, and keeping the fantasy alive, does psychological damage to a child. My two older kids have proved that. If they were so effected, do you think they’d be so upset at the prospect of me telling her Santa is not real? People like you are just plain miserable!

    • Chris L says:

      06:21pm | 23/12/11

      “Frankly, I don’t give a flying shit what you think” - Then why did you reply?

      “If they were so effected, do you think they’d be so upset at the prospect of me telling her Santa is not real?” - Dunno. Neither do I know why abused wives stay with their husbands or why folks have themselves nailed to crucifixes at Easter. People are strange.

      ” People like you are just plain miserable!” - People like you are oppressive and bitchy about it.

    • Fiona says:

      05:51pm | 24/12/11

      and not all of them disagree either.
      It’s Christmas ppls, chillax (as my 21 year old would say).

    • Robert S McCormick says:

      11:34am | 23/12/11

      I don’t mind the Christmas bit even if, thanks to the over-commercialisation of it has destroyed the magic!
      What I do loathe & wish the shops &, in particular, the Supermarkets would cut out are the Christmas Songs, Carols, call’em what you will!
      Now a roll or two of Loo Paper might, indeed, be very useful in a manger with a new-born puking, pooping baby in it.
      But… I do not need to hear that pretty song when I am trying to decide which brand of Loo paper I want for my own use.
      Nor do I need to hear it when deciding which brand of Disposable Nappies to buy.
      When in the “Men’s Toiletries” department I do not want to hear some choir singing ” Oh! Come all ye faithfull” or ” Come, ye Merry Gentlemen” whilst I decide which brand of condoms I am going to buy!!
      As for “Deck the halls with bells & holly” the only response to that is an almost irresistable desire to actually go & deck the bloddy store managers!!!
      Messrs Coles, Woolworths, Drake, IGA etc. we simply don’t need that sort of music.
      It must almost induce Psychotic Episodes in the unfortante Staff who have to listen to that crap all day!

    • wearestardust says:

      11:34am | 23/12/11

      I like Mahhrat’s approach.

      When our son was young we would always spend Christmas Eve at the inlaws’.  Before leaving we would leave cake for Santa and grass for the reindeer.  A friend would come and eat the cake, scatter the grass and move the presents from Santa to under the tree.

      I’m always mildly bemused by the hand-wringing that goes on over Santa - noting that it is frequently my fellow atheists/rationalists/skeptics who have the problem (Christians who don’t tell their kids about Santa because it might undermine belief in Jesus is another matter altogether).  I would not say that there is any moral obligation to perpetuate Santa, but conversely I can’t help feeling that getting uptight over Santa is slightly overthinking life. I note in particular the tendency to damn Santa with the faint praise of “it doesn’t do much harm”. I would be inclined to say that, generally, Santa does insignificant harm and quite a bit of good, measured in happiness (or Utils, getting my Bentham on).

      At this point I expect some will be mentally crafting posts about anecdotes about how this or that child, or themselves, had some Santa-related mental injury. Sure. Kids get bitten by their pet dogs, or upset when their goldfish die, or a range of other things that sometimes have negative effects but on balance are good and we wouldn’t dream of denying to ourselves or our kids. I think Santa is like that.

      There is also, sometimes, a hint that we ought not tell our kids about Santa. Well, that’s when my skeptic kicks in, and if someone thinks that I orta not perpetuate the Santa myth, then they orta come up with some sound evidence of the harms and not just some speculation and logic.

    • marley says:

      12:46pm | 23/12/11

      I like that point about “overthinking life.”  There seems to be a lot of that going around.  What ever happened to just enjoying what comes, including a little fantasy about jolly men in red suits and reindeer in the skies?

    • Farken says:

      11:42am | 23/12/11

      do you want to be a kill joy and see the light go out in there face Julia Thornton if so tell your kids if you have any or so the joy in there face at this time of year

    • Andrew says:

      12:10pm | 23/12/11

      How is letting kids believe in Santa any different from letting Christians believe in god? You seriously going to tell me that there is some dude up there who knows when I’m naughty and nice and doesn’t wear a red suit?

      Besides it’s sort of the reason you get to eat \ drink and be merry this Sunday, ignoring the fact it’s actually pagan tradition.

      What harm does letting kids believe in Santa actually do? Yes they will find out the truth when they are a little older, and you know what, it won’t kill them. (Didn’t kill me)

      So this Saturday night, I’ll watch the kids hang stockings above the fireplace, and look forwards to Sunday morning when they believe a big guy in a red suit has broken in and left them a whole lot of toys.

    • Robert S McCormick says:

      09:29am | 24/12/11

      Good one! Andrew!
      We still have Father Christmas, aka Santa Claus, come down the chimney, hang the ever-lasting red felt stockings on the children’s beds after they have goen to sleep, he is still required to drink the glass of milk & two biscuits on the tray by the fireplace (when I was young my Dad always claimed he was unable to drink milk , thought he had it on his porridge etc., & he told us that Father Christmas had asked him to ask us to put out a wee bottle of Brandy. Which, of course, we always did for we did not want to upset him!!!
      There is absolutely nothing wrong with children & some adults who can still remember,the magic believing in Father Christmas. Heaven knows as they see, experience all the inequality, the cruelty, the greed, the selfishness they have the right to some fun before the disillusion sets in!
      Happy Christmas! A Safe New Year! & Be kind to each other!~

    • philip says:

      12:14pm | 23/12/11

      seriously those bitching and moaning about telling kids that santa is not real are either jealous that the kids are able to beleive in something that adds to the “magic” that childhood brings or just dont get the fact that we need something to beleive in our lives that is untrue for the short amount of time that childhood lasts I have no problem with the belief in santa once a year hell I beleive he exists in so far that it makes kids happy besides we have the majority of our lives being cynical adults even if some of us dont act like it.

    • Wynston Cruso says:

      12:30pm | 23/12/11

      Q: How is letting kids believe in Santa any different from letting Christians believe in god?

      A: The idea of Santa is actually based on someone who existed in real life, as opposed to an entity that has been completely and undeniably invented by illiterate men thousands of years ago in the middle of assf*ck nowhere.

      Merry Christmas smile

    • holden says:

      02:13pm | 23/12/11

      My take, right or wrong.
      It’s called “Our Secret”

      I had hired a Santa suit. Beard, bag, boots and all.
      My wife, and a couple of relatives staying for the Season had agreed to help me in what I considered to be a forgiveable deception.
      I had felt for some time that Xmas was losing its message - that children were losing the ‘magic’ of Santa Claus - and I decided to do something about it.
      This was to be the scenerio: At about 11.30p.m. on Xmas Eve the folks were to wake Danny, our five-year-old, and bring him down to ‘hide’ behind the lounge so that he, and they, could ‘see’ Santa.
      Hidden behind the lounge whilst I snuck in to a spot near the fireplace, they would then peek, and the little bloke would assume that I had come down the chimney.
      Everything went as planned. The barely audible oohs and aahs that accompanied the peeping were the signal for them to bob down while I sneaked out of the room.
      On finding me gone after that was, according to those present, met with wide-eyed wonderment from the boy.
      “See Mummy did you see him?”, and “Aunty Peggy did you see too? He went up the chimney”. He was ecstatic.
      Mission accomplished.
      As I lay in bed later that Xmas night I felt better than I had in ages. My wife, laying sleeping, also wore a gentle smile. Soon, I too, drifted off.
      When I awoke it was to the sound of Christmas Carollers outside the windows.
      Suddenly Donny flew through the door, onto the bed, and into my arms.
      “Daddy, Daddy, guess what? I got a bike from Santa!”
      “Well, you had best take good care of it, hadn’t you.”
      “You bet Daddy, it’s a beauty!”.
      More hugs, more kisses.
      Then, moving back so that he could look into my eyes, he said, “We won’t tell ‘em, will we Daddy?”
      “Tell them what son?”
      “Mum and Aunty Peg. They fought you was Santa, didn’t they!”
      As he spoke his face took on that screwed up look which, accompanied by raised shoulders, means, “Silly duffers” in kid language.
      “No son, we won’t tell them. It will be “our secret”.
      It is still, “our secret”.

    • the_pseudonym says:

      02:59pm | 23/12/11

      Nice story holden, let them be kids, the real world we as adults live in, will catch up with them, when they are ready.

      Have a Merry Christmas and a beaut 2012.

    • holden says:

      03:29pm | 23/12/11

      Thanks pseudo. It’s been fun.
      Happy, healthy, and successful 2012.
      And may all posters who believe in anything use that belief for the benefit of all.
      Oh, a question. What was the name of Paterson’s swagman in his classic, “Waltzing Matilda”?
      Answer?  “Andy”.

    • Old Chook says:

      04:17pm | 23/12/11

      Christmas is for kids. So you idiot adults who are allways finding ways to spoil it for them F##K off and go somewhere else .Leave Christmas for the kids and let them believe what they want .

    • stephen says:

      09:33pm | 23/12/11

      Rodney Adler went to Cranbrook School in Sydney, (and so did a lot of other crooks from that school) and now he wants to be a Muslim, (he is a Jew, and when he got out of the lock-up, he said he was changed ... Hah ! as if not being a Jew would redeem him) .. talk about big nose.
      Bit like Jodie Rich’s wife after the One-Tel debacle ... when it was revealed that she was educated at Ascham, (another cave of disrepute, as it has turned out) and she had more to do with crime and misconduct that the newspapers were willing to expose.
      Love big noses.
      Keep it coming.
      Cause I’ve got all the gossip ... and it’s true.

      ps by the way, News Ltd, is serene ... and I ain’t got no truck with their opposition.

    • Jem says:

      01:13pm | 24/12/11

      Carrots for the reindeer - leave them in a bucket and try to nibble the carrot tops you’ll leave behind once they’ve been.

      Try looking at the world as kids do - it’s an amazing wonderous place and hopefully they haven’t learnt that it is also harsh and unfair at times.  Kids can find magic in the most mundane things.  If you can keep them seeing the magic without Santa, then go for it.  But don’t shatter their way of looking at things for the sake of some sense of ‘realism’.

    • Cyn says:

      03:58pm | 24/12/11

      So you didn’t have Santa, so you want to piss on the childhoods of others? Is that right? And yet you sound completely miserable that your brother let the cat out of the bag early. And you went and ruined it for your nephew!

      Wow. What a charmer you are.

      A bit of fantasy and imagination didn’t hurt any previous generations and I’m sick and tired of these morons who want to suck IMAGINATION and FUN out of children’s lives.

      A life. Perhaps you should go get one.

    • Cam says:

      06:38pm | 24/12/11

      I think the next Punch topic should be ‘Why is alcotrel so obsessed with Tony Abbott?’

      Should make for some interesting theories ....

    • James Leddy says:

      02:17pm | 28/12/11

      Keep it alive. When ours were young and a client had to dress up as Santa, we had him come to the house and took photos of “Santa” putting presents in their stockings. It was just the right time as they were beginning to suspect. Good fun and kept them smiling. We now have shown their children that “Santa” visited their Dad’s and the eyes go wide and a big smile appears on their faces. Lovely to see!!

 

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