Is Halloween evil?

ibast says:

11:52am | 29/10/10

And this is why Halloween is evil.  I’ve noticed some parents letting their kids Trick or treat in Australia.  Well if you let them come to my door, be prepared for me to be rude to your kids.

Grinch says:

11:58am | 29/10/10

I feel that way every September - December when I see tinsel, jolly men handing out candy, fake reindeer and all the other Xmas paraphernalia.

marley says:

12:12pm | 29/10/10

Well, personally I’m a lot more concerned about all the Christmas cards displaying European and North American concepts of snow, reindeer and twee English villages. At least we can identify with pumpkins.

Ben Haslem says:

12:19pm | 29/10/10

Yeah and they’re selling pasta; and curry paste; and Chinese noodles; and tacos; and sushi rice; and cous cous. At least they still sell lamb chops, potatoes, carrots and English spinach. And you can buy little Aussie flags, oi, oi, oi…

Laura says:

02:35pm | 29/10/10

imagine if someone walked through Chinatown in February during their New Year and declared “Ugh, this is disgusting, it’s so Chinese I’m dying on the inside.” we’d brand them an ignorant bogan.

Halloween is fun! who cares if it’s Scottish, American, whatever

Eric says:

04:15pm | 29/10/10

Xenophobia. Bigotry. Racism.

Shame on you!

Dan says:

06:10pm | 29/10/10

Some people are saying this comment is xenophobic… well, no, I disagree. I feel the same way as Michael.

If this holiday was brought here by an influx of American immigrants, then fair enough. But Halloween in Australia is just the result of globalisation and pop cultural osmosis. The kids only want to do it because they see it on tv. It’s a fake holiday.

Apart from that, I do like the creepy horror theme and costumes.

Reg says:

11:27pm | 29/10/10

Well I see your lovelies are not as sophisticated as I’d supposed. Repeat after me… the Internet , satellite television and cable connections have made it a very small world.

As a child in Queensland I recall tuning in Sydney radio stations and through the weak signal wondering at the amazing distances that separated us. There’s no place in the whole world that seems that far now. 17hours to Frankfurt? Not a problem. 14 hours to Seatac? Pushover. How wide’s the Pacific? 6 hours at the moment, 5 when the US falls back. Halloween?  At least the kids know it’s all bullshit.

Perhaps some of the religious fear the breaking down of the mysticism of spirituality. Or worse, that having set the example, their children will adopt Halloween with the same enthusiasm they would wish for their faith.

“Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.”

Bella says:

10:53am | 31/10/10

People have been celebrating Halloween in Australia for quite some time. I ‘trick or treated’ with my school friends back in 1986 and we all attended an all-girls Catholic school. It’s just a bit of fun - lighten up!

acotrel says:

03:57am | 01/11/10

Isn’t it noice that it’s now almost Thanksgiving? And it will soon be Fall?  I can’t wait to see all the leaves fall off the gum trees!

Trent says:

11:23am | 07/11/11

You didn’t actually read the article did you? It is not an American thing in the slightest.

Andrew says:

12:53pm | 29/10/10

I try not to resort to the ad hominem argument, but this is plain silly. Either you’re taking the piss, or need to see a doctor about being prescriped anti-anxiety medication. ( I also presume you’re taking part in the March to Keep Fear Alive, instead of the Rally to Restore Sanity?)

Your depiction of trick or treating makes the suburbs sound like the alternate 1985 in Back to the Future Part II.

Steely Dan says:

01:08pm | 29/10/10

@ Anjuli

“If they open their door they risked being bashed and robbed or worse ,with society being the way it is today it is a game of Russian roulette.”
Whoa.  I don’t recall all this violent anarchy last Halloween.  Are you sure you didn’t fall asleep on the couch watching Mad Max 2 last year?

fairsfair says:

01:30pm | 29/10/10

So you guys didn’t hear about elderly pensioner in Perth (where Anjuli is from) that was bashed by a stranger in his own front yard? I know these are really extreme cases, but if the elderly can’t even water their gardens without the threat of being king hit - I can kind of sympathise with the fear and unease they they must have sometimes. It is a sad state of affairs, but unfortunately it is the reality.

Steely Dan says:

02:33pm | 29/10/10

@ fairsfair

An elderly gentleman was bashed on 31 October, so Halloween is to blame?

I say we ban Christmas.  My neighbours place was always being robbed on Christmas.  To celebrate Christmas is to glorify burglary.
And I say we ban Anzac Day.  Not a year goes by when we don’t hear about someone impersonating a veteran.  And how many people die in road accidents over the Easter long weekend?

Austin 3:16 says:

02:49pm | 29/10/10

Hey fairsfair,

So was the bashing done by a teenager wearing a halloween mask ?  If not then relevance is an issue.

fairsfair says:

03:55pm | 29/10/10

@ All - no, but when stuff like that goes on in everyday society - do you think elderly people are going to open their doors at night time to non-descript looking people outside? My comment was directed at the anonimity and ambush effect that it has. I can certainly see why people could be a little confronted by it is all I was trying to say.

Andrew says:

05:39pm | 29/10/10

It’s not even an issue of relevance to Halloween - it’s an issue of establishing group patterns of behaviour.

Fairsfair has raised one example, which is admittedly an ‘extreme example’.

It should not and cannot follow from this single example such as this should shape an entire social perspective. Were I to apply such logic, I could make the following statements about society in general, such as:
- Every elderly person is rude and inconsiderate, and smells like cat food and old cabbage;
- Every teenage girl is bright oompa loompa orange, and shops exclusively at Supre;
- Every teenage male drives a late model commodore, with ridiculously oversized exhaused, and regularly kills themselves and three other people while speeding on a wet road;
- Every taxi driver has horendous body odour, and a worse grip on the English language;
- Every time you go to a pub, you will get glassed, or will glass another person;
- Everyone in this entire country is going to get shit faced and get caught urinating in a public place next Tuesday; and
- Every single mother in this country will invariably drive a behemoth four wheel drive and present a similar chance of death to those around them while changing lanes as Ivan Millat did to backpackers.

Sound extreme and offensive? That’s because it is. Nobody in their right mind would make such blatant, sweeping observations. I feel uncomfortable making them, simply to make my point.

One nasty event does not a crime epidemic make. It should be seen for what it is: a despicable, but unusual event that should be dealt with by the authorities as appropriate.

Or, we could freak out and ban Halloween.

Steely Dan says:

12:57pm | 29/10/10

But Amy, that’s just what Satan wants you to believe!

AndrewFinden says:

05:45pm | 29/10/10

Not at all!

Christ came to redeem the world, and why should that not include culture. If Christ can incorporate and redeem you and I into his kingdom when were so opposed to him, why cannot he do the same with culture?

Besides, if you’re seen or read anything else of Dr Dickson, you’d be well aware of his thoroughly evangelical gospel primacy.

Ryan says:

05:56pm | 29/10/10

So Christians are damned if they do and damned if they don’t???

What would you rather have?

I personally thought the writer presented a very balanced view. It is high time Christianity was interpreted in a more culturally relevant way without compromising it’s inherent beliefs.

Fiddlesticks says:

08:46am | 30/10/10

Umm, nup.

The poor feller *died* trying to redeem The World. 

And that was his world of the day, at that. Pretty much Mediterranean Europe and the Middle East. People Like Him. His People and Faith had no idea of the Far East, nor of America.

Pretty much the Conservative way, really - only ever acting for People Like Them. It always causes trouble and they never ever learn.

Fiddlesticks says:

08:51am | 30/10/10

And another thing. This “evangelical gospel primacy”.

What a prime piece of meaningless gobbledegook.

Amazing, really, in an educated age. Honestly.

Bring back Pancake Day, I say.

PaulB says:

12:36am | 31/10/10

“sanctifying the secular”.  Actually I’d call it hi-jacking the secular, and manufacturing normal for future generations.

Talkstraight says:

09:43am | 31/10/10

1st Corinthians 10:21 - You cannot drink from the cup of the Lord’s table and from the cup of demons too. The church linked their Christian beliefs with pagan beliefs way back then.  There is a real problem with linking pagan customs with the worship of God. God expects us to honor Him and I for one won’t take the chance of offending God

Ace says:

01:16pm | 31/10/10

Ah… but Jesus said that as Christians we’re to be in the world, not of the world, and to not conform to the ways of the world.

PsychoHyena says:

11:06am | 01/11/11

@Talkstraight, simple question for you: Name one religion based on Judaism and hence the Old Testament that has not broken the majority of the 10 Commandments.

All have stolen, all have killed, all have envied, all are prideful, all have not honoured thy father (being God himself), all have coveted.

iansand says:

02:01pm | 29/10/10

The festival was Saturnalia, if you need a name.  Celebrating Sol Invicta.

Chris Ashton says:

11:23pm | 30/10/10

I can’t speak for John, Steely Dan, but I’m guessing he would be okay with you enjoying the holiday on 25 December.

As a Christian minister, I have been asked whether I think Christians should boycott stores which say “happy holidays” rather than “happy Christmas” on their promotional material. I reply that it’s all well and good for Christians to sanctify pagan festivals, but it’s a bit rich for Christians to chastise the pagan for celebrating what was his in the first place!

So, I’ll get it early here and wish all readers a happy halloween AND happy holidays for 25 December!

Fredd says:

07:55am | 30/10/10

Yes, Christian development is about evolving and devolving mythologies of the time - Gnosticism, Docetism, Marcionsim, Montanism, Araianism. etc - in amongst other belief systems such as Zoroastrianism, Mithraism, Judaism, Roman paganism, etc.

Grounds Keeper Willy says:

01:32pm | 29/10/10

Scottish and Americans are natural born enemies.  Like Englishmen and Scots, or Welshmen and Scots,  or Japanese and Scots,  or Scots and other Scots.  Damn Scots, they ruined Scotland!

TimB says:

02:58pm | 29/10/10

You Scots sure are a contentious people.

Trolldoll says:

01:46pm | 02/11/10

The only thing wrong with Scotland is it’s full of Scottish people

marley says:

02:21pm | 29/10/10

Whats with all the non-religious holier-than-thou comments on the Punch recently?

This is a well-written, gentle article which places the writer’s faith within a lengthy social and cultural context.  And I don’t believe he called anyone a sinner.  In fact, his whole article is a lot wiser and more generous than your comment.

Matt says:

04:24pm | 29/10/10

@marley:
“If there are grades of sins, I reckon the Aussie worship at the shopping mall in the build up to Christmas and the consequent neglect of the poor until we’ve paid off the credit card are much more ‘satanic’ than allowing our kids to dress up as goblins.”

Sounds like he is playing the ‘sinner’ card to me. It is a direct judgment on the general population of Australia (absurdly calling our shopping habits satanic in nature), so you can now kindly remove yourself from your soap box. I also assume that his reference to ‘satanic’ glorification is quite a wide net to boot. Heaven forbid if you carve a pumpkin with the visage of a demon. Perhaps you think his article is wiser than my comments, but I can only guess that is because your beliefs are similar to his own, rather than any real objectivity.

Dan says:

06:01pm | 29/10/10

Actually Mithraism started 200-300 years after Christianity. If any influence was passed between the religions, it was the other way around. The similarities between Horus and Christ are few and less than skin deep. I’ve even seen misinformation about Horus made up to make him sound more like a progenitor of Christ e.g. I’ve seen it claimed that Horus had 12 disciples (Which is not so).

Chris L says:

07:35pm | 29/10/10

I think that “satanic” quote was in jest Matt. Normally I log on to John’s article with eagerness to lambast his viewpoints, but this one was open, accepting and done with humour. Can’t fault it this time.

If the religious would show the kind of acceptance shown here more often rather than push for laws, bans and restrictions to force others to act “christian” us atheists would have nothing to complain about.

marley says:

08:32pm | 29/10/10

Actually, my beliefs aren’t anywhere close to his. 

But his point about the comparative “evil” of a few kids dressing up as goblins vs the rampant consumerism and lack of charity of much of society has a lot to be said for it.  And you don’t have to be religious to agree with him on that point.

Joel says:

08:53pm | 29/10/10

This article represents good scholarship, not an over-the-top religious attitude. Your own remarks unfortunately show the opposite. The argument that Christianity stole its ideas from paganism is an old, discredited opinion. You can read an up-to-date scholarly argument by emeritus Stanford Professor, René Girard: “Are the Gospels Mythical?”. First Things (April 1996)
http://www.leaderu.com/ftissues/ft9604/articles/girard.html

Andy says:

02:48pm | 30/10/10

Seems a bit rich to make such a comment complaining that John calls ” all of us sinners” which shows you know nothing about Christian faith and people like John who believe that we are all sinners, himself included.

Jen says:

07:13pm | 31/10/10

@ Dan:
The earliest evidence of Mithraism dates to about 80 AD, but there are disputed references to it being practiced in Rome as early as Nero’s reign in the AD 60’s. Mithraism and Christianity were contemporaries, and owed very little to each other.

Carl says:

11:23pm | 31/10/10

Joel: It’s not an “old, discredited opinion” that many Christian holidays have been heavily influenced by pre-existing pagan ones. It is a very common, widely held one with a lot of facts supporting it… but then we all know that some Christians have a hard time dealing with facts, especially when they don’t agree with your little work of fiction called the bible.
Also, nice link by the way. Not.
Leadership U… the same Leadership you which also has articles arguing for a young earth, that creationism is true (and it is not “creation science”, as there is no actual science involved in it), and a link to an article giving “seven aggressive steps to effective evangelism” (their abstract of the article, not mine), as well as a number of anti-abortion, anti-gay, anti-climate change, anti-whatever articles.
If sources like this are where you are getting you “knowledge” and “information” about the world, you are in for quite a shock when you get out in the real world.

Fiona says:

08:29am | 31/10/10

Aaah cracker night - that brings back memories.

Halloween is hardly evil - it’s just an excuse to dress up and have fun.

All Saints Day (1 Nov) is a Holy Day of Obligation in the RC stakes followed by All Souls Day on Nov 2. Many European countries celebrate and mourn their loved ones during this time.

For some it is meaningful, including all hallows eve. For others it is a westernisation and commercial approach just like Christmas.

Just play the game, dress up, have fun and don’t spike the kids lollies. And no I won’t let my kids roam the neighbourhood trick or treating despite their pleas. There are nutters out there….

Richard says:

02:20pm | 29/10/10

Zeta I think you need to go full Taylor Momsen on it. That chick is scary :-O

Kent says:

02:25pm | 29/10/10

A member of the Taliban, a fairy, a nun, a prison guard, a prisoner, the grim reaper or a 60s feminist.

fairsfair says:

02:33pm | 29/10/10

I once attended a horror party where a friend came as Johnny Depp’s Willy Wonka. It was the most disturbing thing I have ever seen. I hardly slept for weeks.

I like the Jaoquin thing. Particularly if it tanks and you don’t end up wanting to talk to anyone. You can just channel that Letterman interview - without breaking character you can tell everyone to F* off, slam on your weyfairers in protest and sit in alcohol fueled silence.

Kordez says:

02:53pm | 29/10/10

Sober Lindsay Lohan, there’s nothing quite as frightening.

Austin 3:16 says:

02:55pm | 29/10/10

I always like when Wednesday Addams just wore her normal clothes as a on Halloween and said “I’m a homicidal maniac, they look just like everyone else. ”

Zeta says:

03:36pm | 29/10/10

I’m now thinking of going as Julia Gillard. Zombie Gillard. I’ve got a bright red wig from when I played Dana Scully in a university revue, a couple of stolen Kevin 07 t-shirts, and my already impressive hips. I just don’t really want to shave. So I’ll need to think of some reason the undead Julia Gillard has a beard.

J&T and B&H says:

05:13pm | 29/10/10

I once went to a Christmas Fancy Dress party, with a pair of knickers on my head. The guy at the door said, “what’s tthe story?” and I said, “these are Carol’s”

J&T and B&H says:

05:15pm | 29/10/10

I also went to a fancy dress party carrying my grrlfriend piggy back. The guy at the door said, “what’s your costume” I said “i’m a tennage mutant ninja turtle - this is Michelle”

Reg says:

11:36pm | 29/10/10

Go as a priest and keep ‘em all guessing. I guess that would have to be an Anglican one.

chester says:

10:23am | 30/10/10

@Pod, I heard you the first time mate

Matt says:

04:26pm | 29/10/10

Akrasiel Rising, love the comment. :D Sums the whole thing up nicely.

Adam Diver says:

03:29pm | 29/10/10

or adults and children to have fun, we dont want that do we.

Steve-o says:

09:28am | 31/10/10

Australians seem to be allergic to anything fun. they would much rather sit at home ignoring their neighbours while watching telly and complaining about how americanised everything is.

Vian says:

04:28pm | 01/11/10

I married an American.  The only reason we celebrate Hallow e’en is because it’s part of his cultural heritage, and a really fun holiday.  And actually, before it was American, it was Scottish and Irish.  Get a grip yourself, you xenophobe.

Dan says:

05:55pm | 29/10/10

Yes, your sweeping generalisations and ignorance of history is absolutely right. An atheist regime would never hurt people, dictation is impossible, priests are all paedophiles, and religions are the main reasons for the wars throughout history.

Andrew says:

02:58pm | 30/10/10

The old Christianity is the cause of all suffering and death chesnut. Historically, much more harm has been done in the name of or by athiests (hitler, Stalin need I go on) than by Christians.

Talkstraight says:

01:07pm | 31/10/10

good grief - what happened to you that has made you so cynical. Take a pill.

Carl says:

10:32pm | 31/10/10

“harm has been done in the name of or by athiests (hitler, Stalin need I go on) than by Christians.”

OK, for starters, it is spelt atheist (e before i, like in “theist” meaning one who believes in a single god or “polytheist” meaning one who believes in many gods.). You slightly invalidate your own argument when you present yourself as so stupid as to be incapable of correctly spelling words at the core of your argument.

Also, some of the various “monsters” of our recent history who get dragged up as proof that atheism is evil cause some interesting problems when you actually look into them properly and learn some FACTS, rather than just believing whatever you get told.
Adolf Hitler attended a Catholic school in an 11th-century Benedictine cloister, sang in the church choir and even entertained the fantasy of one day becoming a priest.
Joseph Vissarionovich Stalin studied at a Georgian Orthodox seminary.
Saloth Sar, aka Pol Pot, attended École Miche, a Catholic school in Phnom Penh.
They don’t sound much like atheists to me.
Add that in recent history, a lot more secular societies have been overthrown by extremist religious ones than the other way around…

iansand says:

03:29pm | 29/10/10

Heaven forfend that anyone has fun.

NEFFA says:

04:06pm | 29/10/10

totally agree. if a child comes to my door asking for handouts, i tell them to get a job. we have an obesity problem in this country and people are going door to door asking for free lollies?

on top of that giving sweets to strange children is just creepy and weird

Eric says:

04:19pm | 29/10/10

Why do you hate foreigners, MD?

Austin 3:16 says:

05:27pm | 29/10/10

Christmas and Easter must be fun at your place too. Are ANZAC and Australia days the only ones you celebrate ?

N.S says:

11:37pm | 31/10/10

so what if its an American/ European tradition is it so horrible that we adopt what other countries do. and if small kids come to your door having a bit of fun asking for a sweet and you swear in their face i feel that there is something terribly wrong with you and that for a 30 year old you are quite immature to be saying those things to a child.

James1 says:

11:25am | 01/11/10

Agreed Eric.  Multiculturalism is great - why reject a cultural practice just because it comes from the US?  MD - would you say the same about St Patrick’s Day?  Or Chinese New Year?  Or Eid al-Fitr?

marley says:

08:40pm | 29/10/10

So what you’re saying is, the Americans can be civilized about Hallowe’en but Aussies cannot?  That says more about Aussies than it says about Hallowe’en.

Simeon says:

11:12am | 31/10/10

What’s with all the anti-American comments here? I trust you all never eat at Maccas or any other US take-out?

Reg says:

12:10pm | 30/10/10

So’s Christmas. Although not having been there, it is not my impression that the Aboriginals celebrated it previous to 1788.

marley says:

03:03pm | 30/10/10

Right on.  But then, that description fits Christmas as well.

Earth Waratah says:

09:54am | 31/10/10

So let’s ban Christmas and Easter.

Austin 3:16 says:

10:21am | 31/10/10

“a Northern Hemisphere centric cultural event” So it’s much like Christmas and Easter in that regard.

whatthe says:

11:19am | 31/10/10

What an ill-informed comment. I can’t wait until you post your thoughts on those other ‘Northern Hemisphere centric cultural events’ Christmas, Easter and basically any other religious-based event. Or do you only celebrate southern hemisphere cultural events… what were they again? I suppose you think ANZAC Day is a ‘cultural’ event.

Steve Smith says:

11:28am | 31/10/10

Children like lollies in the Southern Hemisphere, so there is relevance.

Steph D says:

06:55pm | 01/11/10

Did you actually read the article, Rollo?!

Tom says:

06:49am | 01/11/10

Geez Grant…  “systemic and pervasive” - really?

Child abuse in any form is an abhorrent crime and should be punished to the full extent of the law.  Every Christian I know feels the same way.  Obviously, there have been offenders - they have no place in ministry.  But “systemic and pervasive” is a bit over the top.

Jarred says:

10:49am | 31/10/11

Yeah, I must say I agree Grant.

I’m so tired of reading these badgering and preaching messages from Christians, who are trying to teach me about what is good and what is evil.

The truth of the matter is this: These men, who claim to be so loving and caring for our children, are the ones who are continuously sexually assaulting them behind closed doors.

Catholic priests and men in other denominational ministerial positions, account for largest percentage of known child sex offenders in the world. No other profession on earth has such a high number! What does that tell you??

Yet we are constantly subjected to their holier than now sermons, messages, political ideals and articles - tellings us what is good, and what is evil.

Leave us to make our own minds up thanks. We don’t need pedophiles trying to tell us how to live our lives. If we want to have some fun by dressing up as ghost… we’ll do it.