If I were ever going to rob a bank I would do so in character. Specifically, I’d go in wearing the giant green St George Dragon mascot suit.

Is this really the way we want to go?

Aside from the delicious irony of a bank being robbed by its own mascot, the stunt would serve as a timely reminder to Reverend Fred Nile- and others- that there are a range of uniforms, sporting apparel, masks and other coverings that conceal the face and the identity of the wearer.

Last week Nile from the Christian Democratic Party introduced a Bill in the NSW Upper House to make it an offence (maximum penalty $550) for “a person, without reasonable excuse to wear a face covering in a public place.” Note, that’s not just in banks or service stations, but in any public place.

Critics were quick to label the Bill a “burqa ban” but Nile has denied the bill is racist or religiously discriminatory, instead saying his concerns lie with issues of “security”.

It would be easier to believe that the Bill was not racially targeted were it not for Nile’s past.

In 2007 Nile issued a press release titled “No More Muslims” in which he calls for a ten year ban on Muslim immigration. Nile writes that “Australians deserve a breathing space” and are “rightly alarmed at the rapid growth in New South Wales of Islamic concentrations, where the English language is disregarded and Aussie family values are unknown or despised.”

The “security” argument might also fly better if Nile’s Bill treated all face coverings equally. But the Bill excludes face coverings that are worn in “the lawful pursuit of the person’s occupation.” This is good news for bee keepers, dentists, metal workers and of course, Dorothy the Dinosaur.

Sensibly, the Bill also excludes face coverings worn “in a lawful entertainment, recreation or sport”.

Once again, this comes as a relief for all those who actively participate in Halloween, Sci-Fi conventions, masquerade balls and sports such as skiing.

In other words just about every face covering imaginable is excused by the Bill, but with one startling exception; the Bill states that “a religious or cultural belief does not constitute a reasonable excuse for the wearing of a face covering”. This is very clearly a racially targeted act.

Unfortunately though, in his haste to ban the burqa, Nile seems to have forgotten a few things. Should the Bill be passed then, by law, any bride who wears their veil in public will be committing an offence under Nile’s Bill. So too, all grieving widows who choose to veil their face at funerals will be committing a finable offence. Somehow I don’t think Nile intends for Christian brides and widows to be targeted.

Aside from “security” issues, Nile has also stated that he is concerned about “women’s rights”.

Well move over Lara Bingle, Australia has its newest “feminist warrior”. Only here’s the thing. If Nile is going to be critical of religious zealots who police women’s bodies and force them to cover up, then he would do well to remember that in 2008 he himself introduced a Bill that would force women to cover up at the beach and would fine them if they went topless.

Back then, Nile denied that he was prudish, instead arguing that women should cover up so as not to affront Muslim men who come from countries “where women never go topless- in fact they usually wear a lot of clothing”. Nile stated “our beaches should be a place where no one is offended. I think it’s important to respect all cultures that make up Australia”. This from a man who only months earlier had released a “No More Muslims” press release.

Ignoring Nile’s ideological back flips and self contradictions, there is still the issue of the burqa. As a woman and a feminist I object to the reasons behind its existence. I am also offended and disgusted by individuals who refer to women who do not wear the burqa or hijab as being “like uncovered meat” inviting sexual assault.

But some women claim that it is their choice to wear the burqa and that telling women what they cannot wear is just as oppressive as prescribing what they must wear. In any event, there is every possibility that a public burqa ban will merely result in those women becoming prisoners in their own home.

When it comes to women’s rights, we need systemic change. Banning the burqa in an attempt to change attitudes is like banning white cloth to change the racist views of those in the Ku Klux Klan. Intolerance and censorship do not work and are not healthy parts of any progressive democracy. Neither are hypocritical, bigoted conservatives who introduce ridiculous Bills.

179 comments

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    • Eric says:

      06:09am | 30/06/10

      “It would be easier to believe that the Bill was not racially targeted ...”

      The Bill is not racially targeted. Islam is not a race, it is a religion.

      As for censorship, it has nothing to do with this article. Censorship refers to speech, not mode of dress. You seem to be a little mixed up in your categories.

      As for a “right” to wear anything one chooses in public, this has never existed in our society. Women (and men) can’t choose to wear nothing at all, for example. It is entirely consistent with a democracy to ban certain types of clothing.

    • Erth says:

      07:08am | 30/06/10

      Eric, your linking of democracy and the wearing of clothes seems tenuous at best. Maybe you are a little mixed up yourself?

    • Nina says:

      08:58am | 30/06/10

      Thank you Eric. I am well aware that Islam is a religion and not a race- this doesn’t mean that the Bill is not racially targeted. There are specific races which have adopted the burqa more readily than others and this is a way of racially discriminating (in part) against them.

      And censorship in it’s broadest form Censorship is the suppression of speech OR the deletion of communicative material. I take a fairly loose interpretation of what constitutes “communicative material” and would argue that dress most certainly falls under this category as we make very strong statements through how we dress.

      And I’m not sure where I wrote that we have a “right” to wear whatever we want… you seem a little confused in your reading.

    • Grant says:

      11:13am | 30/06/10

      Australia is a signatory to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

      Article 19 states that:

      Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

      The key word in this document is expression, not just speech.

    • Who says:

      11:37am | 30/06/10

      ” I am well aware that Islam is a religion and not a race - this doesn’t mean that the Bill is not racially targeted. There are specific races which have adopted the burqa more readily than others and this is a way of racially discriminating (in part) against them.”

      Nina, that must be one of the most stupid comments I have seen on this website!  Does that mean all the emotionally based (I support those with scientific backing) restrictions on my hobby (spearfishing), which is primarily made up of white males, are in fact racist?

    • Tigger says:

      11:40am | 30/06/10

      I agree with Eric. Claiming “religion” does not automatically give you a right to wear anything you want. In India, the Naga Sadhus are completely naked, including in public areas. I highly doubt that would be tolerated in Sydney. Why does one group get a trump card to shove their beliefs down our throat?

      And the burqa / niqab is so important to these groups, there are hundreds of mainly Muslim countries where they would be more than welcome to. Why try to force it here where it’s not welcome?

    • T. Bear says:

      11:52am | 30/06/10

      Actually I can see the point behind this since many people in Europe are becoming increasing concerned about the possibility that Islam may take over Europe in a few years. .By weight of numbers they may gain control of countries like France and Australia to name but two. If this were to happen little mercy would be shown to the indigenous population.

    • Steely Dan says:

      11:56am | 30/06/10

      @ Tigger

      “Claiming “religion” does not automatically give you a right to wear anything you want.  In India, the Naga Sadhus are completely naked”
      Agreed, though technically that’s not wearing anything.  But that doesn’t give anybody the right to legislate that people wear less (rare and exceptional circumstances apply as usual).

    • Jon says:

      04:03pm | 30/06/10

      Grant@ There were recently some changes.

      8th Session (2 to 18 June 2008). Agenda item 8:

      The UN Human Rights Council is not allowed to judge religions, according to president Doru Romulus Costea of Romania. Criticism of Sharia law or fatwas is now forbidden.

      This ruling follows attempts by the Egyptian and Pakistani delegates at the Council to silence criticism of human rights abuse in the Islamic world.

      http://www.iheu.org/node/3193

    • Shaykh Idris says:

      04:59pm | 30/06/10

      The Burqa has nothing to do with Islam, it is traditional dress amongst some folk, but it has no support from any text. It is just a bad habit, promoted by the ignorant.

    • george says:

      02:00am | 01/07/10

      @ ‘Shaykh’ Idris- So you’re calling two of the four of the leaders of the schools of thought in Islam, ignorant? Wow.

    • James1 says:

      10:24am | 01/07/10

      George,

      It is entirely possible that a person can be a leading religious figure and be ignorant.  Just look at Pat Robertson and his comments about Haiti.

    • JJJ says:

      07:11am | 30/06/10

      If you consider Lara BIngle a ‘feminist warrior’, you are on an entirely different planet than the rest of us… never mind your views on democracy.

    • Nina says:

      08:47am | 30/06/10

      The reference to Lara Bingle is tongue in cheek- she was named a “feminist warrior” earlier this year…

    • Steve Smith says:

      08:51am | 30/06/10

      ... missed it by that much.

    • Liz says:

      09:48am | 30/06/10

      Tongue in cheek perhaps,it’s called irony.

    • Fredd says:

      07:43am | 30/06/10

      A person prominent in one religion trying to impose sanctions on another ... so much for inter-faith understanding.  That’s why intra-faith schism occur, too.

    • L. says:

      07:59am | 30/06/10

      “Unfortunately though, in his haste to ban the burqa, Nile seems to have forgotten a few things. Should the Bill be passed then, by law, any bride who wears their veil in public will be committing an offence under Nile’s Bill.”

      Rubbish…when was the last time anyone saw a bridal veil that was 100% opaque..? Besides, the bill states that it will be an offence to wear a veil “in public”....again, when was teh last time anyone saw a bride wear a veil “in public”?

    • Nina says:

      09:17am | 30/06/10

      L. Go back to the Bill. It does not say that the facial covering must in any way be “opaque”. Nor does it have to cover the whole face. it merely needs to obscure the identity of the wearer.

    • L. says:

      12:24pm | 30/06/10

      “it merely needs to obscure the identity of the wearer.”

      Which lace bridal veil will not…so my point stands….not to mention that a bride rarely goes out in ‘public’..

    • george says:

      02:04am | 01/07/10

      L get over it, she’s merely pointing out possible scenarios that might happen. I don’t know what kind of weddings you go to, but the bride and groom, and their bridal parties often venture out to places to take picture. E.g. In view of the Harbour. Is that not ‘public’ enough for you?? Jeez do people really need to be spoon fed every single minute detail?

    • Realist Not Racist says:

      08:34am | 30/06/10

      Why shouod anyone be tolerant of religions and belief systems which came out of the dark ages.  Should we accept honour killings, the stoning of women and genital mutilation.  There is nothing like a bit of intolerance - it’s another word for discrimination, but even that is banned in the UNHCR Clauses.  It’s time to get real.  It’s the 21st Century

    • Tom says:

      10:50am | 30/06/10

      But the difference is that those 3 things you mentioned fundamentally affect the rights of others, wearing the burqua in itself does not.

    • JC says:

      11:22am | 30/06/10

      apparently we are to tolerate these things. doctors were discussing the other day if they should be operating on girls genitals in hospitals now to appease the minority. Honour killings do happen in this country still so hey, why not bring back stoning and have the trifecta.

    • Keith says:

      03:27pm | 30/06/10

      Actually, while the Koran does state that skin should be covered it does not call for a full 100% coverage.  That is imposed by the father or husband so while not as brutal it has been forced onto women, some say they like it but they little choice one way or another if demanded.

    • Dash says:

      08:51am | 30/06/10

      I agree with you Nina. There is no place for censorship in democracy. Julia Gillard and the Labor party are planning to censor the internet. Perhaps you could get all hot and bothered over that in your next blog?

    • T.Chong says:

      08:59am | 30/06/10

      If this is all about security, then it raises other possible problems.
      Bottles of hair dye will have to go, same as colored contact lenses , - these two articles alone could disguise a blue eyed , blonde haired person into a raven haired, brown eyed terrorist, and vice versa, so obviosly any product, application or garment that in any way changes yur appearance has no place in our society. Why just limit it to the burqua (sic) ?

    • martin crothers says:

      10:34am | 30/06/10

      the issue is not about changing your appearance its about covering it up. if you wish to attack the details get your facts correct

    • Seano says:

      11:21am | 30/06/10

      “Critics were quick to label the Bill a “burqa ban” but Nile has denied the bill is racist or religiously discriminatory, instead saying his concerns lie with issues of “security”.”

      Good advice Martin.

    • T.Chong says:

      12:12pm | 30/06/10

      Martin:  If the issue is security- a’ la Fred Nile, than devices, disguises of any type, including contact lenses etc can and do change a persons appearance.  No problem about any facts Marty.

    • Muttley says:

      03:06pm | 30/06/10

      There is a vast difference between ALTERING your appearance and HIDING your appearance.

    • Fred says:

      03:22pm | 30/06/10

      @ muttley - the end result of ALTERING your appearance is that it HIDES it…

    • george says:

      02:10am | 01/07/10

      @ Martin, if you sincerely think that a ban on the burqa is going to stop people from ‘covering up’ and committing terrorist attack, then you really do have issues, and MAJOR issues at that. If a person is hell bent on killing people, the last thing on their minds would be a stupid ‘cover up’ ban. NOTHING, and I repeat NOTHING, can physically stop somebody committing condemnable acts of terror, but our best bet is education, and proper discourse. Not laws which will cause further friction, and breed a new generation of hate.

    • Chris says:

      09:08am | 30/06/10

      The burqa is not a religious requirement. If it was then we would need to accept it. It is a cultural requirement imposed by a small minority of individuals on other individuals for the purpose of control.  If you support the wearing of the burqa then you support that control.

    • Steely Dan says:

      10:17am | 30/06/10

      @ Chris

      “The burqa is not a religious requirement.”
      It can be, even though its not mentioned in the Quran.  The scope of religion goes beyond textual laws.

      “If it was then we would need to accept it.”
      Nothing should be accepted simply because it is a religious requirement.  A (hypothetical) religious requirement to sacrifice virgins is an illegal act (in this country), and rightly so.  There are limits to religious action in the law.

      “It is a cultural requirement imposed by a small minority of individuals on other individuals for the purpose of control.”
      Broadly, I agree with you.  But many Islamic women do want to wear them - it’s become a cultural norm that some people feel more comfortable with.  I’m not going to force Islamic women to remove their burqas.

      However, if you wanted to outlaw the forced wearing of burqas, I’m with you.

    • James1 says:

      10:40am | 30/06/10

      If you support banning the burqa then you support controlling all women.  If you support Nile’s Bill then you support limiting the rights of every Australian.  Those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

    • george says:

      02:41am | 01/07/10

      LOL sounding like Stephen Conroy there. “If you support a free Internet, you support CHILD PORN” Hmm…
      It is a religious requirement. You have no idea what you’re talking about. It is very much entrenched in religion. The Prophet’s (PBUH) wives wore it. Two of the four schools of though in Islam say it is even compulsory, while the other two deem it favourable. I hate the whole ‘only a minority wear it’. So does the minimal wearing of it, justify it’s ban? A Jewish skull cap is a religious garment worn readily by a minority of Jews, as for the Islamic male cap. So should we ban them, too?

    • Ocmad says:

      09:20am | 30/06/10

      Rather than taking choice away, I would prefer an education campaign targeted at women who wear it. A focused campaign that re-educated women on the history of it and what it means in australia. Then let them make the choice…

    • martin crothers says:

      10:38am | 30/06/10

      wow you assume that the wearers dont know their history, it is ignorance like that that causes mistrust to begin with, secondly choice is not the correct term, they have this ‘choice’ forced upon them, they are educated from birth that this is the way it is, the sytematic manipulation of free will is not a choice

    • Muttley says:

      03:07pm | 30/06/10

      and you assume it is the WEARERS choice.

    • Steve_of_Cornubia says:

      09:33am | 30/06/10

      There’s something wrong here. I’ve read the whole article and can’t find any mention of Julia Gilard. How did this happen?

    • Lazy Jesus says:

      11:58am | 30/06/10

      Brilliant!

      I haven’t had much time for The Punch lately due to the 12 stories per day on the same topic.

    • Chad says:

      10:03am | 30/06/10

      This would be great excuse to maximise CCTV and facial recognition software don’t you think?

    • Rossco McGlashan says:

      10:16am | 30/06/10

      The problem is intolerance and censorship goes hand in hand with Islam. Therefore Islam has no place in democracy. The religion belongs in countries that suit it, in royalist semi-theocratic totalitarian states.

    • James1 says:

      11:05am | 30/06/10

      So in order to be democratic we must ban religions?  Rossco, you are very, very confused.

      You do realise that there are quite a number of democratic states whose citizens are mostly Muslims, don’t you?

    • L. says:

      05:28pm | 30/06/10

      “You do realise that there are quite a number of democratic states whose citizens are mostly Muslims, don’t you? “

      really..??..besides Turkey, would you care to name them?....and lets be fair, they have to be ‘real’ democracies, not any of this “Iranian” style democracy, with a true seperation of church and state.

    • James1 says:

      10:27am | 01/07/10

      Indonesia.

    • Zeta says:

      10:27am | 30/06/10

      I’ve been a professional Fred Nile watcher since I was 16 years old. If not for Fred Nile, I would never have known that British extreme metal band Cradle of Filth produced a t-shirt emblazoned with the phrase ‘JESUS IS A C WORD’ and I would have have bought it, and never been put on three consecutive Saturday detentions for having worn it.

      That really illustrates the stupidity of the Burqa ban. Imagine all those young rebelious Muslim girls, rocking out to Taqwacore in the Western Suburbs with their progressive parents suddenly showing up to school in their Niqab to receive their $550 fine. Fred really misread the mood on that one.

      Do yourself a favour - try to find a copy of Fred Nile’s ‘Family World News’. I shit y’all not, he publishes his own newspaper. And it’s called Family World News. Like it’s some kind of trashy tabloid that publishes stories about dudes rising from the dead and UFOs… oh wait it does.

      But what is most excellent is in side is a pull out calender, every month, and on every day there is a different thing to pray for. Like, on Monday, you pray that the Christian Democrat Party gets enough donations to fund their annual book burning, or you pray that on Tuesday Elaine Nile’s wart removal is completed without complications. Or you pray that the State Parliamentary Greens leader Lee Rhianon has a stroke. One of those is actually true.

      Fred is an easy mark for cheap laughs, but he’s dangerous as well. This outrage from young female academics is of course exactly what Right Said Fred wants. Like all Christian hieorphants he has a tremendous persecution complex. In Fred’s world, we’re living in a secular nightmare, like Trent Reznor’s Year Zero album played in reverse - the godless have taken over and their jack boots are stomping on the backs of the Holy(tm).

      The enemies of Fred’s State of Denial - intellectuals, Muslims, the Left: they’re all conspiring veil wearing Illuminists trying to usher in a new Babylon. And in his mind, he is the only thing that stands in their way.

      Fred Niles are a dime a dozen. There are better dressed ones gyrating at Hillsong. Crazier ones in Western Sydney mosques. Probably a few Zionist Fred Niles in Temple on Saturday.

      The problem with Fred is he’s influential. He controls the balance of power in the NSW Legislative Council. The NSW State Labor Government collude with him to pass their legislation, and in return, they give Fred access to Ministers and made up jobs like ‘Assistant Deputy President assisting the Deputy President’ which pads out his already impressive bank balance. He claims a Parliamentary pension, as well as a Parliamentary income, as well as his wife’s Parliamentary pension. He earns more than the Premier by some estimates, and I don’t see him piping it into anti-AIDS campaigns in Africa.

      We’re lucky in a way he wastes his time on trivialities like banning the Burqa. Because he could be far worse.

    • IMHO says:

      12:13pm | 30/06/10

      Brilliantly written Zeta

    • Kate says:

      01:07pm | 30/06/10

      A fellow wearer of the Jesus is a C*** shirt! Unlike you, I discovered it by being a Cradle of Filth fan, but really did enjoy Fred’s take on the subject.

      The man terrifies me. Not because he’s got a few screws loose, but as you said, because he actually has influence over political decision making.

    • Greg says:

      02:04pm | 30/06/10

      @ Zeta, Kate & IMHO

      How about testing your convictions by wearing a T-shirt showing a picture of Mohammed with a bomb in his turban, and going for a walk around Lakemba?

      I know of a Danish cartoonist who can supply you with a picture.

      Or does your religious hatred and intolerance only apply to Christians?

    • James1 says:

      02:50pm | 30/06/10

      To add to Greg’s comment, you could also try wearing your Cradle of Filth shirts to an Exclusive Brethren church…

    • Fred says:

      02:58pm | 30/06/10

      Zeta who are you and will you marry me

    • Richard says:

      03:53pm | 30/06/10

      Thats an extremely good point Greg. I find it amusing that these progressive feminist writers, who take so much offence at the christian values of modesty, sobriety and clean-living, are now rushing to the defence of antiquidated muslim customs. Islam, in all its acid face-scarring, clitoral-circumcizing, adulteress-stoning incarnations, is more regressive, oppressive and conservatively legalistic than Christianity. If these writers had any intellectual integrity at all they would be opposing Islam first, and Christianity last.

    • Greg says:

      05:03pm | 30/06/10

      But wear your Cradle of Filth T-shirt to an EB church first, because you won’t get an opportunity to do so if you go to Lakemba wearing you Mohommad T-shirt first.

    • Dan says:

      04:48am | 01/07/10

      Zeta, a great post! Nile is repulsive. He truly is. It’s interesting as he talks about ‘Aussie family values are unknown or despised’; well I absolutely despise his so-called ‘Aussie family values’!

      Greg,

      if you walk around Lakemba wearing a T-shirt showing a picture of Mohammed with a bomb in his turban, then it simply proves that you’re a bigot.

      If you don’t want people to express religious hatred and intolerance towards Christians (although it’s actually the disgusting Nile whom we hate and are intolerant towards, and rightfully so); then don’t express religious hatred and intolerance towards Muslims.

      Richard. You need to do some research.

      “Islam, in all its acid face-scarring, clitoral-circumcizing, adulteress-stoning incarnations,”

      Not only do acid face-scarring and clitoral-circumcizing have nothing to do with Islam (and are not only practised by non-Muslims as well but have no religious foundation), but adulteress-stoning is practised only by extremists.

      “is more regressive, oppressive and conservatively legalistic than Christianity.”

      Really? So the Catholic Church’s banning of condoms, among other Christian things, not to mention views on homsexuality are less ‘egressive, oppressive and conservatively legalistic’? Right. Whatever you say.

      “If these writers had any intellectual integrity at all they would be opposing Islam first, and Christianity last.”

      If you had any intellectual integrity at all, and you clearly don’t, you would be supporting Islam over Christianity any day of the week. In fact you would be supporting just about any religion over Christianity, certainly Islam.

      Not only are you incredibly ignorant when it comes to Islam, but here in Australia, the religion that is the biggest threat is not Islam, or Judaism, or Hinduism. It’s Christianity. Fred Nile is an example of this threat. If you can not see that, then you definetly do not have any intellectual integrity.

    • Greg says:

      10:28am | 01/07/10

      @ Dan

      So you endorse people who wear “Jesus is a C***” T-shirts, but anybody who wears a T-shirt showing Mohammed with a bomb in his turban is a bigot?

      You accuse Nile of being hateful and intolerant, yet you admit that you are hateful and intolerant of him.

      Are you really so blind to your own hypocrisy?

    • Macon Paine says:

      11:07am | 01/07/10

      @ Dan

      I agree with you about Nile in that some of his policies are repulsive, sometimes I wonder if he’s ever actually read the new testament. Perhaps he only sees what he wants to see.

      “if you walk around Lakemba wearing a T-shirt showing a picture of Mohammed with a bomb in his turban, then it simply proves that you’re a bigot.”
      Are you suggesting that free speech should be curtailed when it comes to muhammed? muhammed is not above ridicule Dan so how does it make someone a bigot if they ridicule Muhammed? Can you please explain this to me? If someone ridicules Jesus, Krishna, Budda, Yahweh, Moses etc etc does that then make them a bigot as well?
      “If you don’t want people to express religious hatred and intolerance towards Christians (although it’s actually the disgusting Nile whom we hate and are intolerant towards, and rightfully so); then don’t express religious hatred and intolerance towards Muslims.”
      You say this then you turn around and say you hate fred nile, inconsistant much? You are displaying blatant intolerance. If it’s ok to hate Fred Nile, is it ok to hate extremist muslims? You know the head chopping, flying planes into buildings, dirka dirka jihad patpoop crazy kind.
      “Not only do acid face-scarring and clitoral-circumcizing have nothing to do with Islam (and are not only practised by non-Muslims as well but have no religious foundation),”
      This is true, there is nothing in the Koran about these things. They are a cultural/tribal throwback and need to be irradicated. Do you agree?
      “but adulteress-stoning is practised only by extremists.”
      The question then becomes why do the extremists believe they should or can do this? What is driving them?
      “Really? So the Catholic Church’s banning of condoms, among other Christian things, not to mention views on homsexuality are less ‘egressive, oppressive and conservatively legalistic’?”
      Good point. The Catholic church has some wacko ideas.
      “If you had any intellectual integrity at all, and you clearly don’t, you would be supporting Islam over Christianity any day of the week. In fact you would be supporting just about any religion over Christianity, certainly Islam.”
      Why? What exactly do you have against Christianity? What makes it the worst of the worst Dan?
      “Not only are you incredibly ignorant when it comes to Islam, but here in Australia, the religion that is the biggest threat is not Islam, or Judaism, or Hinduism. It’s Christianity.”
      Why Christianity above all others? Because of dolts like fred nile? After reading Zeta’s post it seems that perhaps fred nile’s only in it because he’s got a sweet gig, he’s like a tv evangelist. It’s also very interesting to see your hero’s in the labor party doing a deal with the devil so to speak, why no condemnation of this?

    • Dan says:

      11:17am | 01/07/10

      Greg:

      “So you endorse people who wear “Jesus is a C***” T-shirts,”

      Actually I don’t. I never said that I did. Personally I would never wear any offensive T-shirt.

      “but anybody who wears a T-shirt showing Mohammed with a bomb in his turban is a bigot?”

      Absolutely. It is pure bigotry. It’s also hypocricy since you oppose wearing the “Jesus is a C***” T-shirt, even by (nominal) Christians, yet you (and a non-Muslim as well) would wear a blatently Islamophobic T-shirt. You are a complete bigot.
      “You accuse Nile of being hateful and intolerant, yet you admit that you are hateful and intolerant of him.”

      Forgive me for being intolerant of intolerance, and for hating hateful and racist bigots. I make no apologies for that.

      Perhaps you don’t care because Nile hates Muslims, but if he was a Muslim imam who hated Christians, who had repulsive and intolerant ‘family values’ and was in a position of power, you wouldn’t hate him and be intolerant towards him? Right.

      “Are you really so blind to your own hypocrisy?”

      Right. So says the person who opposes wearing the “Jesus is a C***” T-shirt yet would wear a blatently Islamophobic T-shirt. You’re the hypocrite.

      Plus, I don’t recall endorsing wearing any offensive T-shirt. Unless you’re referring to my being intolerant and hateful towards the repulsive and dangerous bigot that is Nile; which is absurd since it is entirely reasonable to be hatred towards hate and to be intolerant of intolerance.

      Niles is one of the most dangerous men in NSW. He is also one of the most hateful and vile bigots in the country, and I absolutely hate him and his so-called ‘Aussie family values’, and I am completely intolerant of him and everything that he stands for. He’s truly horrible.

    • Jon says:

      12:49pm | 01/07/10

      Dan, what do you get when one religious nut, thinks another religious nut, is a nut?

      Two religious nuts!

      The biggest to threat to NSW and the world is religious nuts and the apologists for them.

    • Dan says:

      01:08pm | 01/07/10

      Jon;

      wow,  your name-calling really proves your argument.

      ‘Dan, what do you get when one religious nut, thinks another religious nut, is a nut?’

      I take it your implying that I’m the first religious nut? Right. You are so ignorant it’s incredible. Tell me, Jon, are all non-athiests who do not want to take away freedom from women to wear what they want, religious nuts? Right.

      I will say this. You may not be religious, but you are just as much of a nut as Nile. You’re certainly as ignorant.

      ‘Two religious nuts!’

      Wow, how clever! Rolls eyes. My one-year old niece could do better than that.

      Jon, you may be an athiest, but you are are just as bad as Nile. You are completely ignorant, paranoid and alarmist (uh, Jon, the burqa ban hasn’t been imposed and the world hasn’t come to an end), obviously Islamophobic and you’re mad. Totally mad.

      ‘The biggest to threat to NSW and the world is religious nuts and the apologists for them.’

      LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I’m an apologist? Really? Because I believe in freedom of choice? Because I don’t want the government to tell women what they should and should not wear? Right.

      Jon, I will simply say this. Not only are people like you more dangerous than the terrorists you see under your bed since you want to take away freedom; but you are no less than an apologist for those who to destroy our values. You are the threat. You and your hero Fred Nile.

    • James1 says:

      01:18pm | 01/07/10

      While I might be a little more relaxed in my rhetoric, I think Dan has hit on an important point here.

      If we begin legislating away freedoms, however trivial they may seem, we begin down a path that ends with places like Saudi Arabia.  If we allow our fear of public displays of religiosity to lead us down a path which allows government to interfere in our wardrobes, our bedrooms, and our churches (of lack thereof), then the freedoms that we are supposedly fighting fundamentalist Islamists over will be lost anyway, and our fight against Al Qaeda will be utterly pointless.  Please, let us not engage in a race to the bottom.  Australia is a wonderful place because of the absence of laws determining how we dress, what religion we follow, and other such things.  Let us not imitate states like Iran and Saudi Arabia.

    • Jon says:

      03:14pm | 01/07/10

      Dan, I think you and Fred Nile have a lot more in common then me! I am all for freedom. Freedom from his religion and yours.

    • Greg says:

      03:56pm | 01/07/10

      @ Dan

      What part of “a great post” is not an unqualified endorsement? Why isn’t it bigotry to wear a “Jesus is a C***” t-shirt?

      I never wrote that you would wear an offensive t-shirt, I wrote that you endorsed people who did. That is a fact, which anybody can verify for themselves. So you are wrong.

      In fact, it was you who wrote that I would wear an Islamophobic t-shirt. Twice. You are wrong again. For what it’s worth I am agnostic, but I wouldn’t wear an anti-Christian or an anti-Islam t-shirt.

      Then you call me names, completely missing the irony when you write to Jon “wow, your name-calling really proves your argument”.

      To top it off, you remain completely oblivious to irony of being intolerant to intolerance and claiming that it is OK to hate hatred (as long as you get to define which opinions are intolerant and hateful).

      As for the rest of your little tantrum, I suppose anger is a common reaction when ignorant hypocrites get exposed for what they are.

    • Dan says:

      03:56pm | 01/07/10

      Jon:

      ‘Dan, I think you and Fred Nile have a lot more in common then me!’

      Really? Except you and Nile both want to ban the burqa. You and Nile are both incredibly ignorant, and you and Nile are both massively intolerant. No, Jon, it’s you that has more in common with Nile. In fact, you have alot of common with most religious extremists, since you yourself are an extremist; you just happen to be an athiest.

      ‘I am all for freedom.’

      No, you aren’t. Freedom means accepting that people will make decisions that don’t please you. You are only for freedom that you approve of, and that is not freedom at all. The truth is, you are anti-freedom and you have alot in common with the Pope and the Saudi Royal Family.

      ‘Freedom from his religion and yours.’

      Well, considering I’m a progressive Jew who believes in tolerance and he is an Christian Fundamentalist who is not tolerant, for you to compare me to him shows (yet again) how ignorant you are. You are embarassing yourself.


      I also note that earlier you said Yes, freedom by all means, from Religion!’ so you aren’t fussed about which religion you want ‘freedom’ from.

      What do Jon and Fred Nile have in common?

      They are both incredibly ignorant, bigoted, want to control what women wear, are misogynistic, have alot in common with the Pope and the Saudi Royal Family, have ‘values’ which are completely unrepresentative,  are a danger to the nation, and wouldn’t understand the meaning of the word freedom if their life depended on it.

      Jon, just like Fred Nile (your soul-mate), you an extremist who is more dangerous than any of the terrorists under your bed or in your closet!

    • Greg says:

      04:03pm | 01/07/10

      @ James1

      What have you been smoking? Are you really claiming that if we do ban the burqa then we will end up like Saudi Arabia and Iran? Maybe we should introduce Sharia Law just to make sure wed don’t imitate Islamic nations. Maybe we should knock down all of our churches and replace them with mosques just to make sure!

      There is truly nothing funnier or more absurd than leftist “logic”!

    • Greg says:

      04:08pm | 01/07/10

      @ Zeta

      Really? A professional Fred Nile watcher since you were 16 years old? You really should get a life.

      Still, I suppose it explains why you are the way you are.

    • James1 says:

      04:25pm | 01/07/10

      Greg,

      What I mean is that in Saudi Arabia and Iran they control the way people dress.  In Australia we do not.  You and Mr Nile seem to want to make us a little bit more like Saudi Arabia, by partially controlling the way people dress.  Try and discredit me all you like, you will get much further if you respond to my actual arguments.

      Also, irony is the use of words with a meaning opposite to their literal intention.  So what you describe as irony is in fact just double standards.

    • Dan says:

      04:54pm | 01/07/10

      James1;

      ‘You and Mr Nile seem to want to make us a little bit more like Saudi Arabia, by partially controlling the way people dress.  Try and discredit me all you like, you will get much further if you respond to my actual arguments.’

      Don’t bother. Conservatives like Greg don’t handle logic very well.

      ’ Also, irony is the use of words with a meaning opposite to their literal intention.  So what you describe as irony is in fact just double standards.’

      Good pickup! I completely overlooked it. He really is ignorant.

    • Jon says:

      05:26pm | 01/07/10

      Dan, I am confused, so you are a Jew who believes that Sharia law is not a threat to Secular Society or non-believers in Islam. I know many Jews who would certainly not share that view.

      And that you have nothing in common with Fred Nile even thought you both believe in the same God and one of the monotheistic holy books. That sounds like a lot in common to me.

      Freedom of speech is the most important aspect of our democratic Secular Society. This means I have right to comment and debate on any religious and cultural practices and especially the ones that contravene universal human rights.

      But so do you Dan and I agree with your right to do so!

    • Greg says:

      07:03pm | 01/07/10

      James1,

      I’m not trying to discredit you, you are doing a good job of that all by yourself, but if you do ever manage to make an articulate and reasoned argument, then I will be pleased to respond to it. Attempts to digress into semantics just doesn’t cut it.

      As for your last statement, my response is that all countries, including Australia, have some degree of restrictions on how their people can dress. It’s just a matter of degree and where the line is drawn. I’ve written in another thread how it’s illegal to impersonate a policeman or wear a helmet in a bank. If I wore a swastika on my t-shirt, I suspect that I would be arrested under “racial vilification” laws.

      This isn’t an issue of being allowed to wear whatever you want. We already can’t do that. It’s an issue about where to draw the line on what is acceptable and what isn’t.

    • Dan says:

      03:46am | 02/07/10

      Jon;

      ’ Dan, I am confused, so you are a Jew who believes that Sharia law is not a threat to Secular Society or non-believers in Islam. I know many Jews who would certainly not share that view.’

      Of course, I believe that aspects of Sharia law are a threat to Secular Society or non-believers in Islam. But not banning the burqa is not going to open the floodgates. This has nothing to do with Sharia. It’s a red herring.

      Note that you are the one who brought up Sharia, and continue to do so even though we don’t have Sharia Law and will not adopt any practises which are contrary to our laws. You are also the one who seems to believe that opponents of a burqa ban support Sharia Law (or the Sharia Law that you are speaking of). This may shock you, but considering that you are the only person to have brought up Sharia, perhaps opponents of the burqa ban simply do not share your paranoid ‘oppose burqa ban=support Shara’ black + white view of the world.

      ‘’ And that you have nothing in common with Fred Nile even thought you both believe in the same God and one of the monotheistic holy books.’

      We don’t believe in the ‘same God.’  Not at all.

      As for believing in one of the monotheistic holy books, you do realise that not every person is fundamentalist? I guess you think that all religious people are alike. Even though Nile clearly has more in common with you that with me.

      ‘That sounds like a lot in common to me.’

      One of us agrees with Nile that the burqa should be banned. I wonder whom it is.

      ‘Freedom of speech is the most important aspect of our democratic Secular Society.’

      Oh, please, this has nothing to do with freedom of speech. We aren’t debating whether it is appropiate to vilify Islam or any other religion. We are debating whether it is appropiate to ban the burqa. If you are going to talk about important aspects of our ‘our democratic Secular Society’ at least pick one that is relevent to the discussion at hand.

      It’s not true BTW. The most important aspect of our ‘democratic Secular Society’ is actually democracy.

      ‘This means I have right to comment and debate on any religious and cultural practices’

      Except you aren’t simply debating it. You want to ban it! This has nothing to do with freedom of speech and it has nothing to do with your ‘rights’. You simply are an extremist who cares about freedom and rights only when it benefits you.

      You couldn’t care less about the rights and freedoms of Muslim women, or anything that you don’t approve of. Afterall, we have your lovely quote; ‘freedom by all means, from Religion!’ If you were ever in power, you would undoubtfully take away religious freedom and any other right that you don’t agree with. You are an extremist and you are in no position to talk about rights and freedom!

      BTW, you actually don’t have the ‘right to comment and debate on any religious and cultural practices.’ Perhaps you could petition the UN, and other relevent bodies, to make it a right.

      ‘and especially the ones that contravene universal human rights.’

      According to you. It is subjective. Simply because you believe that it
      ‘contravene universal human rights’ (which right is that?) does not give you the right to ban it.

      That’s right, I forget. You only care about freedom when it suits you. You don’t like the burqa; screw anyone else’s freedom! You are even more similar to Nile than I had realised. You, Nile, the ACL; you all think that you have the right to take away freedom form others because you don’t like the choices that freedom brings but then cry foul when your beloved rights are taken away.

      ’ But so do you Dan and I agree with your right to do so!’

      Oh please. I don’t need to be told by an anti-freedom extremist such as yourself, what rights I do and do not have!

    • James1 says:

      12:32pm | 05/07/10

      What you call semantics Greg, I call accuracy.  How can we take anything you say seriously if you are unaware of the importance of using basic words correctly?

    • Greg says:

      05:17pm | 05/07/10

      James1, what you call accuracy I call trivia, and a failed attempt to distract attention away from your unsuccessful argument. Does the cliché “rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic” ring any bells with you?

    • DJ says:

      10:27am | 30/06/10

      I have no problem with the burqua, if they want to wear it fine but they should have their actual faces on passports and any form of ID and at security at the airport they need to take the face bit down to ensure they are who their ID says

    • Jenni says:

      10:40am | 30/06/10

      I support any person’s right to wear whatever clothing they choose for whatever reason, including religious ones. The difficulty lies in summising when a person *chooses* to wear something in accordance with their faith, and where a person may be being oppressed to wear that item to subjugate any part of the gender, race, religion, etc.

      I can offer no wisdom or blinding insight into how to solve this problem - obviously if someone is being oppressed to wear something, they are unlikely to answer honestly if you ask them, for fear of reprisal and violence against them. I don’t know what the answer is, but if you ban people from wearing certain religious or cultural items, then you become the oppressor! Either way, you are taking away a person’s right to choose how they show their faith, are both are equally abhorrent to me.

      In response to Realist Not Racist “Why shouod anyone be tolerant of religions and belief systems which came out of the dark ages” ... The most widely worshipped forms of Islam (which I assume is the religion you find so objectionable) dates back to the time of Muhammad in the early 17th centurey (though the broader religion does go back further). The Catholic Church, on the other hand, predates this by approximately 500 years - the first references to it as an institution being circae AD 107. With this in mind, why should I (following *your* logic) be tolerant of this religion and its belief, coming as they do from a “darker age” than Islam? I personally find many tenets of Catholicism to be as equally vile as some of those on Islam, but I would not be so small-minded as to deny people the right to worship it as they see fit.

      Would you deny a nun the right to wear her habit? Will you take the pope’s pretty hat away from him? Oh that’s right, these do not “obscure the face” ... nor do many versions of the hijab, they cover only the hair in the same way that a habit does. Many habits cover the same amount of body and hair that a hijab does - if you were robbed by somebody posing as a nun in full habit and all you could see of them was the small circle of their face, would you be able to pick them out of a lineup? I highly doubt it.

      I am not a religious person. While I do not share the beliefs of muslims, catholics, christian, jews, etc, I will always defend their right to uphold their beliefs in whatever manner they deem appropriate - without, of course, forcing their beliefs onto others in any way. An item of clothing, in and of itself, does not impede in any way on *your* right to live your life as you choose, why are you trying to impose your beliefs on others?

    • Adam Diver says:

      11:00am | 30/06/10

      Its pretty obvious this is a targetted bill to ban the burqa. Its pretty obvious that it won’t pass either. Its also pretty obvious that the burqa is a disgraceful piece of clothing, but so is wering your pants under your a**e. Its obvious to most that anyones who belief system involves the female as subserviant to man, and to hide from the world behing cloth has some serious issues incongruent to Australian values. And it is plainly obvious that many Australians whilst trying not to be labelled racist or xenophobic have concerns about the clothing and religion in question. Honest concerns that should be discussed rationally.

      But to try and pass this bill is nothing short of stupid. Perhaps a bill because of womens rights (I do note the irony there), or to set some acceptable social standards (which I would prefer the government would not), but under the guise of security is as I said stupid.

    • Greg says:

      11:10am | 30/06/10

      As a motorcyclist, I am forced to remove my helmet when entering a bank because it hides my face, but somebody who wears a burka can still hide their face. This is discrimination against all non-Muslims, and Muslim men for that matter.

      Fred Nile’s proposed bill will address this discrimination. What’s not to like?

      And since you mentioned the Ku Klux Klan, no doubt you also support their rights to hide their faces in public? Or is “intolerance and censorship in a democracy” OK under certain circumstances when applied to groups that do not have the Funnell tick of approval?

      Several southern US states have decades-old laws against wearing face coverings in public, and they are targetted at a specific racial / religious group. I eagerly await Nina Funnell’s next article promoting the repeal of these laws.

    • Steely Dan says:

      12:23pm | 30/06/10

      @ Greg

      “As a motorcyclist, I am forced to remove my helmet when entering a bank because it hides my face, but somebody who wears a burka can still hide their face.”
      This is a good argument for allowing banks to ask that full face covering be removed within the banks themselves.  But a blanket ban on burqas is as pointless as a blanket ban on helmets.  Is Fred Nile anti-helmets too?

    • Greg says:

      01:08pm | 30/06/10

      @ Steely Dan

      Fred Nile allows for motorcycle helmets under the “lawful recreation” provision, so no “blanket ban” is proposed, but the point is that there is existing discrimination about who can cover their faces in banks.

      Banks do not require burqa wearers to show their faces before entering banks. Why do burqa wearers receive this exclusive preferential treatment, and why should they be treated differently to a fully robed and masked KKK member?

    • iansand says:

      01:23pm | 30/06/10

      There is no legislation requiring you to remove your helmet in a bank.  It is bank policy.  A bank could require a wearer of the burqua to reveal her face.  So far that has not happened, but if the imagined justification for the banning of the burqua actually occurs, and a robbery is committed in that particular disguise, then I am sure that the bank policy will be reviewed.  Oddly enough, it will be a bank employees’ union that asks for the review.

      This push has nothing to do with security, and has nothing to do with women’s rights.  It is all about irrational fears travelling with a bodyguard of lies.

    • James1 says:

      01:45pm | 30/06/10

      They should be treated differently to KKK members because they do not seem to be going around burning crosses and lynching black people.  I was going to add Jews to that, but it seems like that is one thing that the far right and the Islamists actually share…

    • Greg says:

      01:48pm | 30/06/10

      @ iansand

      There was an armed robbery in Sydney last month, where the robber was a man disguised by a burqa. It has already happened, it is a fact,  not “irrational fears travelling with a bodyguard of lies”.

      And why are none of the burqa wearer supporters not also declaring their solidarity with KKK robe wearers? Shouldn’t both religious / racial groups be allowed to wear masks? I’m still waiting for an answer.

    • Greg says:

      02:34pm | 30/06/10

      @ James1

      Try to keep up. We are talking about what people can wear in public. Lynching black people is already against the law, and it’s illegal for KKK members, Burqa wearers and everybody else too.

    • James1 says:

      02:48pm | 30/06/10

      So you accept that trying to establish equivalence between KKK members and women wearing burqas is rubbish.  Makes me wonder why you raised it as an issue to begin with, Greg.

    • Fred says:

      03:06pm | 30/06/10

      @ Greg - after the robbery where the burglar wore a burqa, the big 4 banks made an official statement saying they had no intention to introduce a policy enforcing burqas be removed upon entry. 

      Soooooo what’s your point now?

    • Greg says:

      04:58pm | 30/06/10

      @ James1

      There is an obvious equivalence between burqa wearers and KKK members wearing their robes. They both use masks to hide their identities. They both hold views that are considered extremist by the mainstream. Their membership is exclusive to particular religions and races. Yet one group is considered a persecuted minority who should not be criticised for their beliefs, while the other is criticised as a minority who should be persecuted for their beliefs.

      If somebody committed a robbery disguised as a KKK member, do you think that anybody would be making excuses for the KKK? 

      If it’s OK for burqa wearers to hide their faces in public, do you support the right of KKK members to do the same? If not, why not?

    • Greg says:

      05:12pm | 30/06/10

      @ Fred

      That underlines my point. The banks have admitted that they will discriminate against some people who incidentally cover their faces with a helmet by refusing them entry, but they will not refuse entry to others who deliberately hide their faces.

      They are not giving equal treatment regardless of race or religion. The banks have been intimidated by the dark forces of political correctness. They are giving preferential treatment to burqa wearers. I am sure that if we were ever to have an influx of KKK immigrants, then the banks would have no hesitation in banning these people from wearing their robes and masks in the bank. And people like you would not only support the banks in doing so, but would criticise them if they didn’t.

      That is the point. Why is it so hard for you to understand it?

    • James1 says:

      10:11am | 01/07/10

      Anyone can become a Muslim Greg.  All you need to to is accept Allah as the only god, and Mohammad as his prophet.  Not everyone can become a member of the KKK though…  And you read me completely wrong - by all means criticise Muslims, I am not saying we should not criticise Muslims, Christians, Scientologists, whatever.  I just do not see a need to ban any of these things.  The stupidity of the KKK’s perspective is self evidence to even the worst idiot, and that is a far better way of marginalising their views than banning the organisation.  Ditto for the burqa, in my opinion.

      If someone committed a robbery in a KKK uniform, I would expect it to be treated like any other robbery, just the same as if someone used a balaclava, ski mask, of burqa.  These are issues for the police, not for banning clothes.

    • Greg says:

      11:07am | 01/07/10

      @ James1

      Anybody can become a Christian too, but that’s besides the point. Burqa wearers are only a small minority of Muslims, and KKK members are an even smaller minority of Christians, but their membership exclusivity is defined by their religious identities.

      My point is that leftards like Funnell have no problem in banning “religious clothing” that masks a person’s identity when that person is a white Christian, but they are ‘outraged’ (once again) at the suggestion that a ban might impact upon a non-white Christian. They are so eager to attack white Christians, that they even abandon their feminist ideology to ally themselves with misogynist Muslims. That is the hypocrisy that they can’t face up to.

      Despite their hypocrisy, most of these leftards have no shame. But maybe some of them want the burqa as a fallback option for when they can no longer show their faces in public.

      You claim to be an exception, who just doesn’t want any type of masks to be banned, no matter who wears them and for whatever reason. But did you rush to the defence of motorcyclists or KKK members when their rights to wear helmets or masks were restricted?

    • James1 says:

      11:17am | 01/07/10

      Greg,

      No, because they are not at risk here, and this article is about banning burqas, not the KKK or motorcycle helmets.  Please try to keep up. 

      On the KKK, I would not defend them - I think they are amongst the worst of the worst.  However, they should not be banned - as I said, to all fair minded people the idiocy of the KKK is self evident, and if one can not see that then they should be outed publicly, and justifiably marginalised.  Banning such idiocies simply drives them underground, and attracts followers.

    • Greg says:

      02:35pm | 01/07/10

      @ James1

      Lol ...... Nice try, but it would clear to anybody reading this that you are the one who is struggling to keep up grin.

      This article might be all about banning burqas, but Nile’s proposed legislation most definately places the KKK at risk as well. Read it again: he wants “to make it an offence (maximum penalty $550) for “a person, without reasonable excuse to wear a face covering in a public place”.

      So there you go, nasty right-wing Nile wants to restrict the rights of KKK members, but lets all pretend that this inconvenient truth doesn’t exist.

      It was another nice try to suggest that I asked you to defend KKK beliefs. I didn’t. Nor do I expect anybody to defend the beliefs of burqa wearers. It is their right to hide their faces in public that is the issue here, not their beliefs.

      If their beliefs were the issue, then Nile’s proposed legislation would to ban the hijab as well as the burqa, not to mention all mosques. But it doesn’t, does it?

      So that attempt to digress didn’t work, although it does clearly indicate an inability to respond to the main issue under debate. Maybe you need to take a bex and have a lie down until you get your game on?

      Otherwise, you might be forced to resort to the standard leftist techniques of ad hominem attacks, name calling, guilt by association, barefaced lying or sticking your fingers in your ears, closing your eyes and chanting puerile slogans.

      Gee, I hope I didn’t just steal your thunder….....

    • James1 says:

      04:20pm | 01/07/10

      Read my last post in full Greg.  You will find my views on banning the KKK, in the part where I say I do not think they should be banned.  I even give reasons.

      I don’t think Nile is nasty because he is from the right.  I actually lean to the right on most issues myself, which makes it rather ridiculous that you call me a leftist.  I think he is nasty because he does not have the decency to accept that people have liberties which allow them to act in a way which his holy book says is unacceptable.  It is you who is advocating that the government make further laws dictating how people dress, not me.  I had thought something the left loves is government telling us what to do, so on those ground you are far more left-wing than I am.

      To sum up my views, I do not think the government should be allowed to interfere in our wardrobes, bedrooms, culture, or religion any more than is necessary to protect the rights of individuals.  You, like your leftist fellow travelers and the Reverend Mr Nile, seem to want it to, but are unable to provide any kind of justification for this, apart from the fact that I am not getting upset about the KKK.  Could it be that you are attempting to undermine me as a person, rather than responding to my arguments?  Could it be that you are just as hypocritical as the left, if not (an unwitting) part of it?

      And anyone reading this who treasures their liberty as much as I do would agree with me.  Those with authoritarian leftist tendencies, no doubt, would indeed argue that I am struggling to keep up, but only because they do not understand the nature of liberty.

    • Greg says:

      06:41pm | 01/07/10

      James1, you are not paying attention at all, are you? Sigh. Read my last post. Once again, banning the KKK is not the issue. Banning their ability to disguise themselves is the issue.

      I didn’t call you a leftist, I implied that you argue like one, and I stand by that, despite your belief that you are a libertarian. Also, the left does not love the government telling us what to do, it loves the government telling us to do what they want us to do. There is a big difference.

      The government exists and it coerces its citizens to behave in accordance with its laws, regardless of whether you or I like it or not. That’s the reality we live in. It already has laws that limit our rights to wear whatever we want. Try dressing up as a policeman (when you are not one) for instance, and you will discover that you have broken the law.

      The legal line is drawn on clothing restrictions when the clothing enables the wearer to disguise or mask their identities. When people do disguise or mask their identities, it can often be with sinister intent, or at least it enables others to act with sinister intent, which places other individuals at risk. This is exactly what is at issue with the burqa. In contrast, there is no attempt to ban the hijab.

      It has nothing to do with Nile’s “holy book”, which doesn’t make any reference to the burqa anyway, and by making such a claim you have undermined yourself as a person.

    • James1 says:

      11:39am | 02/07/10

      You are far too inconsistent to argue with effectively Greg.  You shift the goalposts as you see fit, deliberately obfuscate, refuse to stick to the issue (but only when it suits you), engage in attempts at ad hominem arguments, and do not even know what irony is.  I give up.

    • Greg says:

      05:03pm | 05/07/10

      James1, you may know how to google a dictionary definition, but your unconscious usage of irony shows that you don’t really understand. Maybe you should google “psychoanalytic projection” instead.

      Furthermore, one doesn’t win an argument just by making the final post, but if you don’t believe me, here is your chance to learn something……………….

    • Mayday says:

      11:13am | 30/06/10

      Nina, one of the reasons I personally detest the burqa is because it represents female repression and as you say in some families the male head will not allow females out of the house - “.....result in these women becoming prisoners in their own home.”  This attitude needs to stop NOW and education as well as legislation are the only way these women can have a chance at the freedom we take for granted.
      Even in a democracy we have to fit certain values such as dress codes. 
      As a woman I am not allowed to walk around topless but I do see many ugly, fat male bellies and chests in the summer months and my objection comes down to aesthetics and a bit of envy (I have been told to put my top back on at the beach)
      To all the brides and widows I apologise now if the bill causes you inconvenience.
      The burqa is a thing of the past and doesn’t belong in a vibrant free society like Australia.

    • James1 says:

      11:34am | 30/06/10

      So you seriously believe that the only way to support the freedom of a tiny minority of women is to remove freedoms from every single Australian?  How can removing freedoms support a “vibrant free (sic) society”?

    • Mayday says:

      12:19pm | 30/06/10

      James1
      Please refer to the article, “.....result in these women becoming prisoners in their own home.”  This is how their freedom is removed!

      All women today should be able to CHOOSE what they want to wear in or outside of their home and not have it dictated to them by the misogynistic actions of their fathers and brothers.
      Women have been told what to wear for centuries and its only been in the last few decades we’ve had this personal freedom; to take us back to religious fanaticism is cruel and undemocratic.

    • James1 says:

      12:51pm | 30/06/10

      So in order to make sure that all women can choose what they wear, you advocate a law which explicitly tells every person in NSW that they can not wear a particular item of clothing.  Like I say, to ensure freedom of choice for a tiny minority you would remove that choice for everyone.  Do you not see the massive inconsistency inherent in this line of thinking?

    • Jon says:

      02:13pm | 30/06/10

      James1, hi, as an Atheist I am no supporter of Fred Nile, but the burqa is the thin edge of the Sharia wedge. It belongs in the dustbin of history as well as many other religious practices. I reserve the right to have any tolerance for inhuman beliefs, discrimination and abuse in the name of respecting religion or culture.

    • James1 says:

      02:22pm | 30/06/10

      I do not argue along those lines Jon.  I argue along libertarian lines.  And as a libertarian I have no tolerance for laws that oppress everyone in order to provide for the perceived rights of a tiny minority.

    • Jon says:

      03:01pm | 30/06/10

      Jame1, Ok, then should the Law prosecute any man who forces a woman to wear a burqa against the her will?

    • Mayday says:

      03:09pm | 30/06/10

      James 1
      I think you’ve got the cat by the tail…..the everyone being oppressed are the majority who now have a voice thanks to the Bill and the tiny minority are the women forced to wear a burqa.
      I am not a supporter of Fred Nile, I too am an atheist and feminist and pro choice not only on the subject of abortion….any woman forced to wear the burqa has no choice, they are oppressed.
      Educate and legislate thats why this Bill is important to give a voice and protection to the silent minority of women oppressed by this hideous practice.

    • James1 says:

      03:13pm | 30/06/10

      Jon,

      Of course.

      Personally, I find burqa offensive and I don’t think anyone should wear one.  That does not mean I want to makes laws to that effect though.

      Mayday,

      Educate, yes.  But all legislating does is remove more rights and freedoms from all Australians.

    • Jon says:

      10:41am | 01/07/10

      James1, the problem with the libertarian argument is that it is a classic fifth column tactic used by Islamist’s to get special dispensation from Western countries, for female genital mutilation, family-honor killings, forced juvenile marriages and many other religious and cultural practices that contravene universal human rights.

    • James1 says:

      10:58am | 01/07/10

      Sure it is Jon.  And the CIA is responsible for 9/11, I’m sure.

    • Jon says:

      12:08pm | 01/07/10

      James1, come on! it was George W Bush. A man who couldn’t organize a piss up brewery and was responsible for the GFC. Executed a plan for the mass murder of 3,000 human beings and has managed to keep it covered up since then.

      But, I bet you think it was a bunch Jihady Islamists who wanted to make a statement about their religion and die for their sky daddy. Impossible!

    • James1 says:

      12:27pm | 01/07/10

      Pretty out there, I know.  But surely that explanation is within the realms of possibility…

      Also within the realm of possibility is that I am serious in my convictions that the government and church has no right to dictate what is in our wardrobes, and that I am not in fact a fifth column Islamist bent on introducing genital mutilation…

    • Dan says:

      12:55pm | 01/07/10

      Mayday, howcan you give these women ‘chance at the freedom we take for granted’ if you take away freedom as well?

      ‘All women today should be able to CHOOSE what they want to wear in or outside of their home and not have it dictated to them by the misogynistic actions of their fathers and brothers.’

      But it’s okay to have it dictated to them by the government? You do realise as well that some women DO choose to wear the burqa?

      You’re right that they should be allowed to choose, but it’s not proprer choice if the government does NOT ban the burqa.

      ’ thats why this Bill is important to give a voice and protection to the silent minority of women oppressed by this hideous practice’

      By taking away freedom? You are comfortable with the idea of the government telling you what you should and should not wear? I’m not. I assume then you have no problem then with nations overseas mandating the burqa or preventing women from wearing jeans? It’s also irrelevent whether you think it’s hideous. That subjective judgement does not justify banning it.


      Jon;

      ‘but the burqa is the thin edge of the Sharia wedge.’

      Nonsence. Paranoid nonsense.

      “It belongs in the dustbin of history as well as many other religious practices.’

      Perhaps, but it can’t be legislated out of existence.

      ‘the problem with the libertarian argument is that it is a classic fifth column tactic used by Islamist’s to get special dispensation from Western countries, for female genital mutilation, family-honor killings, forced juvenile marriages and many other religious and cultural practices that contravene universal human rights.’

      Not only is this paranoid rubbish (the sky is not going to fall!), but we should be allowed to determine law based on what we consider to be right rather than paranoia. It is not right to take away freedom.

    • Jon says:

      02:04pm | 01/07/10

      Dan, pretty standard response, ‘paranoid rubbish’ ‘the sky is not going to fall’ but the facts show some thing different. In the UK there is push to establish Sharia law for Muslims and this has been well documented.

      The One Law for All Campaign was launched on 10 December 2008, International Human Rights Day, to call on the UK Government to recognise that Sharia and religious courts are arbitrary and discriminatory against women and children in particular and that citizenship and human rights are non-negotiable. The Campaign aims to end Sharia and all religious courts on the basis that they work against, and not for, equality and human rights.

      http://www.onelawforall.org.uk/

      The whole the libertarian and torrance argument is the same one that has been used as a smoke screen for the introduction of Sharia law in the UK. Australia luckily has not regressed to that level yet, by accepting this dishonest tactic to introduce this form of religious bigotry into this country.

      We don’t want the same situation that they have in the UK to develop. I think we should nip in it in the bud before it gets to be a problem here, don’t you?

      Yes, freedom by all means, from Religion!

    • Dan says:

      03:35pm | 01/07/10

      Jon:

      ’ Dan, pretty standard response, ‘paranoid rubbish’ ‘the sky is not going to fall’ but the facts show some thing different.’

      No they don’t. I don’t see the sky falling. Yeh, it looks pretty good from here.

      ‘In the UK there is push to establish Sharia law for Muslims and this has been well documented.’

      We aren’t the UK. Also, we’ve allowed women to wear the burqa forever and there hasn’t been any attempts to establish Sharia. Not to mention, it’s not a cause and effect that if we don’t ban the burqa, Sharia will be established.

      ’ The One Law for All Campaign etc…’

      What does this have to do with banning the burqa in Australia?

      ’ The whole the libertarian and torrance argument is the same one that has been used as a smoke screen for the introduction of Sharia law in the UK.’

      torrance?

      Two things.
      1)The UK is irrelevent. If you want to talk about other countries, what about Saudi Arabia? You want to make Australia no different to Saudi Arabia.
      2)It’s not smokescreen to anything. Either we ban the burqa or we don’t. If we care about freedom, we will not, and considering that Sharia hasn’t been introduced here (or in the UK for that matter), to call it a smokescreen proves how paranoid you are.

      ‘Australia luckily has not regressed to that level yet, by accepting this dishonest tactic to introduce this form of religious bigotry into this country.’

      If we have not, then what’s your problem?

      Although if you call not banning the burqa a dishonest tactic, you may be in for a shock, because it does not appear that Nile (and you) will get his way.

      ’ We don’t want the same situation that they have in the UK to develop.’

      So, if we don’t want Sharia, we should ban the burqa?

      Here’s a thought. Why don’t we judge things on their merit? Instead of saying ‘Sharia=bad’ when Sharia covers much more than criminal law, why don’t we evaluate things on their own merits? Such as the burqa. In the case of burqa, to ban it is to deny freedom of choice.

      ‘I think we should nip in it in the bud before it gets to be a problem here, don’t you?’

      Uh, no. Wjhy would you ask a question like that? Surely you know my answer?

      The fact that you want to ban the burqa on the off-chance that there will be some preventable problem shows how paranoid you are. Incredible.


      ‘Yes, freedom by all means, from Religion!’

      Nice. So you only care about freedom, if you agree with it?

      You are an extremist, and you are no differenent to Christian or Islamic or Jewish extremists. It’s people like you that we need to be protected from.

    • Steely Dan says:

      12:32pm | 30/06/10

      “In any event, there is every possibility that a public burqa ban will merely result in those women becoming prisoners in their own home.”

      Absolutely agree.

    • stephen says:

      01:07pm | 30/06/10

      What about different colours ? Green maybe, or perhaps blue and tassels with a bit of trim. Black is dull and it looks like it smells bad.
      If it’s only a matter of dress and not of a religious significance, lets bring Dolce and Gabbana into the drawing-room for some style and proportion.

    • Macon Paine says:

      01:17pm | 30/06/10

      “This is very clearly a racially targeted act.”
      For goodness sakes how on earth is it racist? Can someone please explain to me how this act is racist? I can see a fairly week case for discrimination perhaps, but racist sorry I just cant see it.

    • Ali says:

      01:22pm | 30/06/10

      I have emmigrated from Egypt to Australia and move basically becuase of the religious intolerance from Islam. I have no problem with the head coverings and think that people should be free to wear what they want. But if Islam become the majority or a political influence you can pretty much be sure that religious, racial, sexuality and other standard freedom will be erroded. We need to watch Islam very carefully and becareful how many Muslism enter Australia. Frances reaction is because they are concerned that the rise of Islam will errode there traditional freedoms and culture. If people think that Islam wont do this I have many bruises and suffered much from damage to my personal property because I am not Muslim when I was in Egypt. I love Australia and I am so happy that my wife and children can live with out fear from religious zealots.

    • T.Chong says:

      01:39pm | 30/06/10

      Ali, you seem to have had a bad time- assaults, destroyed property, etc , bad stuff. You seem to have a lot in common with the assaults, damage etc that is frequently perpetrated on Palestinians by sections of the Zionist settler movement, in the occupied territories.
      Extremist religios bigots exist every where, not just in Islam.

    • Jon says:

      02:49pm | 30/06/10

      Thank you Ali, I total agree!

      T.Chong the difference is many secular Jews are not happy with Zionist’s movement either. Where are human the rights movements in Islam countries worrying about the rights of other religious? At least Islam is not banned in Israel. In some countries all other religions are banned or even the right not to have religion except Islam.

    • Ali says:

      04:43pm | 30/06/10

      While Im no fan of Israel infact think they are money and land grabbing *********s. As non Muslims in Egypt we have never declared or acted upon that we want to destroy the state of Egypt. Some thing that Israels enemies have declared they want to do. Hamas’ ( as elected by the people of Palistine ) whole exisistance is focus on the destruction of Israel, so I rather concerned that you think that the plight of Palistine and of non - muslims are the same. Dont be caught up in the Islam is peace because my friend it is clearly not, not from what I have expirenced. I clearly remember as a child getting punched from another child. I ask him why? He didnt even know it was what he had been taught to act violently agaisnt non -muslims. Let me say how ever muslims in Australia are not like that at all infact they are most accomodating and have never recieved any abuse.  But look at the evidence is every single majority muslim country, please open you eyes and see. I dont speak from a hateful heart but I have learnt and seen what the influence of Islam will do.

    • AdamC says:

      01:28pm | 30/06/10

      Is this a serious article about banning the burqa or just a rant about Fred Nile? It reads better as the latter, but I will respond to it as if it were the former. First, it is not censorship to ban a garment. You could regard it as an extreme response to the issue if you like (though, of course, in no way as extreme as actually wearing one of the hideous things) but it is certainly not censorship.

      Secondly trying to include the burqa in a western liberal or feminist discourse is laughable. The fact is burqa-wearing women are not exercising any sort of genuine choice or freedom. The burqa itself is deigned to be oppressive. Outside of its cultural context, if someone said ‘I will only leave the house with a sack-cloth bag over my hole body - including my head - with only a gauze panel on it allowing me to see and breath’, we would assume that they are mentally ill.

      Not that that is, in itself, a reason to ban the thing, which I don’t really support. Nonsensical articles like this, though, are hardly likely to convince anyone.

    • DougB says:

      03:10pm | 30/06/10

      “Quote” Outside of its cultural context, if someone said ‘I will only leave the house with a sack-cloth bag over my hole body - including my head - with only a gauze panel on it allowing me to see and breath’, we would assume that they are mentally ill.“End Quote”
      I can’t agree with you AdamC. Women wear scarves in similar fashions because they fell pretty and warm.  When Punk first came on the scene, people were sure that any one who wore that clothing and pierced their body in that way were mentally disturbed, yet body piercing has been around since early cultures and was much favoured in many different ages by many different levels of society.
      You are judging books by their covers.  We need to allow these people the freedom to communicate without fear and prejudice to determine who is making the choice of clothing. Not choose the person by the clothes.

    • Fred says:

      03:15pm | 30/06/10

      And if somebody told me they didn’t believe in dinosaurs and thought that every person evolved from 2 people called Adam and Eve I would think they were mentally ill… oh… wait.

    • Ripa says:

      01:33pm | 30/06/10

      “Banning the burqa in an attempt to change attitudes is like banning white cloth to change the racist views of those in the Ku Klux Clan”

      Great Nina, so we all agree that the burqua is a racist and oppressive tool.

      “In any event, there is every possibility that a public burqa ban will merely result in those women becoming prisoners in their own home.”

      Are you kidding me, am i the only one here that sees the warped irony in this statement! So the women are oppressed and only let out if they are dressed as ghosts, so now we ban the ghost uniform and these women are not allowed out anymore?  HELLO ?

    • Peter says:

      03:13pm | 30/06/10

      @ Ripa, these women will ban themselves from going out, not their husbands. Most of these women choose to wear a burqa. In fact the most snobbiest muslims can be found wearing burqas. If they are choosing this, why do you continue with the line that they are being oppressed? What will be oppressive is to ban them from wearing what they want.. Isn’t that what you are trying to avoid? Also there are cultural differences as well. Give it a generation or two and we’ll probably find that less muslim women will be wearing the burqa anyway…

      I agree with asking the face covering to be removed in banks and airports, but that’s about it.

      It was once illegal for a woman to go to a beach in Melboure unless you were covered from neck to ankle.. yes this law is 100 years old, however we didn’t need legislation to change before women started appearing on beaches in bikinis.. Attitudes changed, not laws.

    • Just Sayin' says:

      03:47pm | 30/06/10

      I’m with Peter.  There are security issues in some places, and face coverings should not be allowed in those places.  By anyone.  Regardless of race, religion or gender.

      However, my scope would be a little wider:
      - Convenience stores and service stations after dark
      - Taxi drivers - at least briefly so the camera can get a shot of you
      - Post offices
      - Utility stations

      Licensed premises already have an OBLIGATION to establish the age of anyone entering, and to do this they need to be able to see your face as well.  Still, nightclubs are pretty boring if you are not drinking, and I don’t think anyone who is drinking can claim that they need to wear a burqa for religious reasons!

    • Ripa says:

      03:58pm | 30/06/10

      @Peter point taken, now recall all the burqa wearing women that ran away from the cameras on TV last night, all you women that came up to the camera wearing the burqua and denounced banning it raise your hands. Who? where? none they have no voice, exactly for the reason people want it banned, it is, whether unconcious, concious, or forced it is a tool of slavery. and linking it with feminism is just wrong, how many high profile burqua wearing women are there in Iran? how many do you see are leaders. you have to stop and think.

    • Peter says:

      01:54pm | 01/07/10

      @ Ripa, i must have missed the women running away from the TV camera’s. Maybe some of these women walking past the camera felt no inclination to talk to them, i don’t know.. I don’t think i linked the burqa to feminism, i just said that culturally it was unacceptable for a woman in Melbourne not be be covered up on public beaches. As attitudes changed, so did the outfits women wore. If im not mistaken that 100 year law might still be on the books for Brighton Beach.. Also, i do believe that the oppression of muslim women is somewhat overstated in the media, especially considering that muslims nations have had female PM’s before western countries did… Pakistan has had a female leader ,what about the US? If someone with the class and nouse of Hillary Clinton couldn’t get the job, what hope does a woman have there?

      @ Just saying, agree with your wider scope.. If someone in a burqa entered a convenience store at midnight, you know something is about to go down… You wouldn’t get burqa wearing woman out at midnight i think..

    • Ripa says:

      12:44am | 02/07/10

      @ Peter , OK now you’re reaching, covering up at beaches is a sign of the times, as the times changed and people became accepting and understanding it was OK to uncover, the link to the burqua is??? what? burqua wearing women will eventually wear 2 piece bikinis? , the burqa has not changed it will always represent opression, MAYBE the burqa wearing women in lakemba on ACA didnt want to be bothererd, well maybe thats exactly what the burqa is. , dont bring up Bhutto, she never wore a burqa, this isnt against muslims, its against turning women into faceless objects.

    • Super D says:

      01:45pm | 30/06/10

      Fred Nile and the Greens have a fair bit in common.  Occasionally, through no fault of their own, they stumble across a good idea but then because everyone thinks they are crackpots they assume the idea is as well. 

      The burqa should either be banned or women officially recognised as being the mere chattels of their husbands or fathers as this is what the burqa signifies and my missus wouldn’t really go for being my possession.

      The fact is there are plenty of countries where the burqa is either tolerated or compulsory so its not as if the few hundred affected families would not be able to find somewhere to fit in.  I would argue that the overwhelming majority of those countries are sh!tholes that don’t respect women so I don’t see why their cultures should be emulated here.

      It seems to me that we bend over backwards to be tolerant yet are consistently perceived as being weak by stronger cultures.

    • charles martel says:

      02:15pm | 30/06/10

      at James1 at 11.05

      “You do realise that there are quite a number of democratic states whose citizens are mostly Muslims, don’t you?”

      i never knew that. i assume from most media that they are open sewers of intolerence and bigotry. where are these magical far-away places where the majority of the population is muslim and democratic?

    • James1 says:

      02:20pm | 30/06/10

      Not so far away Charles.  Indonesia is one.

    • AdamC says:

      02:20pm | 30/06/10

      Indonesia and Turkey are sort of democratic, but only quite precariously. They’d be your best bets. Maybe Albania too. Malaysia is democratic if you have very low standards on the subject. That’s about it.

    • Greg says:

      02:25pm | 30/06/10

      Australians already have restricted rights regarding what they can wear. You can be prevented from entering or ejected from any AFL or cricket stadium if some official believes that your clothing, or any writing or picture on it, is “offensive”.

      Of course, what is offensive to some will not be offensive to others.

      Nina Funnell and her fellow travellers will consistently declare anything pro-white or pro-Christian to be offensive, whilst declaring anything that is pro-minority to be “a justified display of cultural pride”.

      If you really want to understand leftist hypocrisy, that’s all you need to know.

    • Fred says:

      03:17pm | 30/06/10

      Greg the difference is those rules are set by businesses, what we’re talking about here is a proposed LAW.  Big difference.

    • Greg says:

      05:45pm | 30/06/10

      @ Fred

      If monopoly businesses or cartels have policies which restrict people’s preferences then the outcome is the same. At least we get to vote for or against politicians who pass laws, we don’t get to vote against business policies that we don’t like.

    • Fred says:

      02:52pm | 01/07/10

      Greg that is exactly my point…  Except that the outcome is not the same.  The business can only make rules for their premises.  The law effects this entire nation.

    • Greg says:

      04:41pm | 01/07/10

      @ Fred

      What exactly is your point? Are you trying to say that a national government always has more influence than businesses? I can think of a few multinational corporations that would discredit that theory.

    • Stewart Henstock says:

      02:27pm | 30/06/10

      without reasonable excuse to wear a face covering

      So if you’re pulled up you just say it’s for religious purposes and there’s no fine.

      This thread is just an exercise in Christian Bashing.

      Next.

    • Fred says:

      03:34pm | 30/06/10

      Way to not read the article:

      the Bill states that “a religious or cultural belief does not constitute a reasonable excuse for the wearing of a face covering”.

      Next.

    • DougB says:

      02:46pm | 30/06/10

      Clothes are clothes, and as long as they don’t contravene decency laws, then people have every right to choose what they wear.  If you choose to wear Burqa’s in 40 degrees + then good luck.  However if you are being forced to wear them then that is a different matter.
      I am less concerned with Islamic dress codes than I am with Islamic fundamental beliefs and religous laws.
      I would point to Geert Wilders in Holland and his stance against Islam & Muslims there. See link. http://www.geertwilders.nl/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1685&Itemid=1
      We need to educate them on our freedoms and democratic ideals or remove them if they can not comply.

    • Brad says:

      03:04pm | 30/06/10

      This Bill is targeted at banning the burqa a-good. I hate to shock people but our freedoms are curtailed all the time by Laws - lots of Laws. These range from where we can smoke , walk, how fast we drive and how we dress( indecent exposure) . Mostly these are implemented to safe guard ourselves and the community , sometimes they seem punitive to one group or other but that’s life. You claim that not allowing the burqa is intolerance - then I suggest you spend time in countries where the burqa is the normal and tell me if we are really being intolerant and the wearers of burqas etc are free and happy happy joy joy. PLEASE do not say to me they should be free to follow their beliefs - tell me what happens to a women when they chose not to to wear the burqa or dress ‘appropriately”. Do that and you may find a different view when naivety hits reality.

    • Stewart Henstock says:

      03:06pm | 30/06/10

      I thought the Americans were doing just that in Iraq and Afghanistan…educating the masses.
      Of course if that fails you put a bullet in their head.

    • Brad says:

      03:17pm | 30/06/10

      and of course the Talidan were very inclusive and understanding when they were in control

    • Tim says:

      03:08pm | 30/06/10

      Religious extremism is dangerous.

      Good intentioned people making excuses for religious extremism is even more dangerous.

    • Casey says:

      03:54pm | 30/06/10

      Excellent article Nina. And great to see you responding to comments on your article!

    • Just Sayin' says:

      04:00pm | 30/06/10

      This topic always reminds me of the skit on The Chaser where they go into shops and busuinesses with stockings on their heads and argue that it has been unfairly malimaligned as a fashion statement.  People ran for cover, ducked behind desks and one guy called the cops.

      Meanwhile, if you did the same thing in a burqa or hijab, both of which hide your identity at least as much, people would say it is okay.

      What about my right to wear a stocking on my head?

    • thatmosis says:

      07:28pm | 30/06/10

      I was in Egypt recently and an interesting story came to light about a 13 year old girl who by “tradition” must wear the Burka after turning 12 has refused to do so and people are actually helping her and more and more women are now turning their backs on this outdated and demeaning form of dress. This is a Muslim country we are talking about and they are slowly heading towards getting rid of this “tradition” and more power to them. We however live in Australia and its time that people who come to live here adpopt the Australian way of life. They can have their religion but some so called “traditions’ should be left at the Customs Counter on the way in.

    • Fred says:

      03:04pm | 01/07/10

      Bullshit response “The Australian way” and what exactly is the “Australian Way”??  Jesus that pisses me off when people say that.  First of all Islam is a religion, and as Australia is a secular nation, there is and should never be any need for anyone to change their religion or cultural beliefs just to live here.  And second of all, we are SUCH a multicultural nation, much of what we are and have we owe to other cultures, it shouldn’t matter that they moved here a hundred years ago and some are moving here now…

    • Freeman says:

      08:32pm | 30/06/10

      Yes, Nina, we get it. Nile is a nutter and his views are outdated.
      but the debate over the burqua needs careful consideration and yours is a partison opinion. Surley, the burqua should not be allowed wherever one should not cover their face. Banks, Airports, schools ect.

    • Yasmine says:

      10:56pm | 30/06/10

      I’m Muslim and I’m totally against the burqa, why? because it’s not part of our religion. It never specifically said we have to cover up 100%, why should we bow down to men telling us what to wear? Why should we be invisible to society? Why should women be told what to wear? You wouldn’t suspect me as a Muslim, because I dress like everybody else in this decade, I can go out wearing a skirt or track pants, whatever I feel comfortable wearing it, I wear it. No man would force me to tell me what to wear, maybe us women should tell men what they should wear. And yes, from personal experience hearing from other ‘Muslim’ women, majority wearing the burqa is forced upon by either their husband or father.

    • Fred says:

      03:05pm | 01/07/10

      Good for you Yasmine.  Do you see a difference in you being able to do what you did, and other women in your situation being FORCED to do what you did.  Regardless of whether or not they’re being forced now.  I would hate if my Government tried to restrict any article of clothing, religious or not.

    • Jon says:

      09:48am | 01/07/10

      Yasmine, glad to read it, however would you agree that it is unethical for Saudi Arabian to ban any religion except Islam, even though many other religions were practiced there before Muhammad?

    • DG says:

      11:24am | 01/07/10

      “Intolerance and censorship have no place in democracy”

      I disagree entirely - democracy is about popularity, it’s not about right and wrong. The whole point of democracy is to appoint a body to implement popular policy with a view to getting elected at the next election.

      Inherent in that system is the presumption that a government will only be permitted to engage in censorship if the population are not against it. If it were unpopular with the majority, censorship would result in a change of government at the next election.

      As for intolerance - in a democracy, any behaviour that is not acceptable to the majority is prohibited in the interests of appealing to the majority - consider the criminalisation of marijuana, hooning, homosexuality and smoking in public places.

      The last 2 are perfect demonstrations of how democracy means that the changes are made as behaviour becomes popular (or acceptable to the majority) or unpopular (or unacceptable to the majority).

      There issues are not one of fact, but of opinion, they are not quantitatively “right or wrong”, but are opinions based on person belief and experience. For that reason, democracy will include intolerance of the minority (so long as the majority will let it happen) and will include censorship (again, so long as the majority are content to let it happen).

      Also:
      “the Bill states that “a religious or cultural belief does not constitute a reasonable excuse for the wearing of a face covering”. This is very clearly a racially targeted act. “

      This statement is not internally consistent - if the discrimination is based on a religious or cultural belief it is not, by definition, racist. It is linked to the chosen behaviour and belief* of the individuals concerned rather than their race. A person can, with experience, change their behaviour or belief - they can not change their race (which is a biological issue).

      It is fair, however, to recognise that such a provision is clearly linked to one particular cultural/religious group that is noted for the decision to wear a face covering.

      I suspect that this language was used as matter of convenience rather than as a deliberate act to blur the lines between a group separated by their (unchosen) race as opposed to their (chosen) behaviour. The prohibition of specified behaviour is central to democracy.

    • James1 says:

      12:31pm | 01/07/10

      But to do so without a reason is a tyranny of the majority, not a democracy.  A person’s choosing to wear a burqa or a face mask while riding a bicycle in no way affects their fellow citizens, and thus their fellow citizens taking offense at such items being worn is no reason to ban said items.  By the democratic standards you outline, if the state can convince enough citizens that it is desirable to exterminate a particular section of the population, it is an acceptable course of action to take.  Minority rights need protecting if a liberal democracy is to function effectively.

    • DG says:

      04:24pm | 01/07/10

      I’m not saying it’s right, but democracy is the tyranny of the majority over the minority - by its very nature.

      I note that you carefully added the world ‘liberal’ before democracy to give some weight to your words. But the reality is that a democracy, where every person gets one vote - it is mob rule. Nothing more, nothing less. 

      Sometimes the majority are benevolent and allow behaviours, or interests that they do not really wish to pursue, but do not seek to prohibit (consider the legalisation of homosexuality). Other times they choose to grants rights to some groups (consider the ‘67 referendum)

      Democracy is a popularity contest - where each voter makes a decision in pursuit of their own personal ideal world - for some that is a liberal environment, for others it is conservative. The one that prevails in any given election is the majority - if the majority are conservative, that is what will win the election.

      The benevolence of ones ideology does not affect the value ones vote, nor does their bigotry or racism. One person, one vote.

      The most popular prevails.

      “Minority rights need protecting if a liberal democracy is to function effectively.”

      I agree with you. As an Aboriginal Australian, I don’t know that I could agree with you more vehemently, but why do minority rights need protecting? Are minority rights some how more important than majority rights or is it because, in a democracy, a person has no rights beyond those which the majority choose to give? I suggest that it is the latter.

    • James1 says:

      04:59pm | 01/07/10

      Tell me what right is being withheld by allowing people to cover their face in public, and perhaps I could agree with you.  As far as I can see, in this situation, a person’s liberty to dress as they see fit is far more important than the supposed right not to be offended.  We are talking about removing liberty for the sake of people not getting offended, that is what this boils down to.  All the exceptions in the Bill that Mr Nile is introducing show that it is not about security, if it was there would be no valid exceptions to the law at all, as any kind of face covering and justification for covering one’s face constitute equal security threats.  To argue the security angle is highly inconsistent.  In a liberal democracy, of which Australia is one, it is not okay to undertake actions that impinge on the liberty of citizens when there is no harm being caused by the existence of those right.  The kind of democracy you are talking about is a direct democracy, and no democracy of this kind exists because it simply would not work.

    • DG says:

      10:08am | 02/07/10

      James:

      I didn’t say that any right was being withheld - I simply said that this is democracy in action - the majority make the rules and apply them as they wish. Sometimes those rules are ‘liberal’ other times they are conservative. Either way it is at the whim of the electorate.

      I’m not talking about direct democracy where every person votes on every Bill, but practical, representative democracy where politicians participate in a popularity contest every 3 or 4 years. Inevitably representatives will do what they believe will give them the best chance of re-election. 

      On what do you base your assertion that this is a liberal democracy?

      I think a firm argument could be made that we are not a liberal democracy in any constitutional sense, although we have been fairly liberal in the past 50 years or so.

      To refer to Australia as a liberal democracy is to replace fact with ideology. Our democratic process is only liberal insofar as the electorate vote to support liberal policies. We have no ‘rights’ that are enshrined in our constitution (ok, we have one or two, such as the right to a trial by jury) our support for the rights and interests of minorities is determined solely by the benevolence of the electorate.

      As I said, Australia is a democracy that has, in the past, shown certain tenancies towards liberal ideals. However, for the majority of the past decade, that has not been the case - especially in respect of certain minority sectors of the community. In that time conservative views have grown in popularity - whether it be considered protection of “Our Australia” or xenophobia is irrelevant. For the better part of the decade we (Australians) have demonstrated at the poll booth that we are not liberal in that regard.

      “We are talking about removing liberty for the sake of people not getting offended, that is what this boils down to.”

      There’s quite a bit of spin there. We are talking about the authority of a democratically elected representatives to make popular legislation. The rights that you speak of, are not legal rights in Australia, but a hazy sense of entitlement (the Convention on Human Rights is not enforceable by the population against the Government, it’s mere feel-good puffery).

      Australia, is a representative democracy - our liberal history is a reflection of the popular ideals of the electorate over the past 60 years or so (prior to that our “democracy could hardly be considered ‘liberal - we did have the White Australia policy, differing age of consent for homosexuality where it was legal, illegal use of recreational drugs and so on). Certainly, the continued debate with respect to euthanasia, abortion and other similar issues, suggests that we are not so liberal as some may believe.

    • James1 says:

      11:41am | 02/07/10

      Just to be clear, DG, I do not use the word “liberal” in the corrupted American sense, but in the classical liberal sense of John Stuart Mill and Adam Smith.  That is the liberalism with which I identify.

    • DG says:

      01:06pm | 02/07/10

      I assumed you meant liberal in the sense that the view that a person should be free to do anything, so long as that thing does not harm any other person.

      I put it to you that the prohibition against euthanasia is an example of legislation that is contrary to the libertarian view of the mid-late 1800’s. The current (and former) Government’s censorship of suicide “self-help” materials further supports the observation that our democracy is not ‘liberal’ in that sense. Our democracy is populist.

    • James1 says:

      01:46pm | 02/07/10

      I would disagree on that last point DG.  I do not think that is populist at all - I think that form of censorship is authoritarian.  As would be any further proscription on the amount of clothes a person wears.

    • DG says:

      10:10am | 05/07/10

      You can call it authoritarian if you want - it still leaves you a long way short of the ‘liberal’ democracy that you claim we have.

      Whether it’s due to our convict past (where the State was wholly responsible for the health and well-being of the population) or some other quirk of history - Australian democracy has consistently had the ‘nanny state’ policies that deny the suggestion of liberal democracy.

      Our government has never been, and I find it hard to believe that they will ever be, a government that allows a person to do whatever they like so long as they do not physically harm another person. We have long prohibited, and will continue, to prohibit behaviour that would involve a person causing harm to themselves.

      Where these things have been overturned, it has happened at a time when it was popular (at the polling booth) to do so.

      Getting back to my original point, intolerance and censorship have long been part of democracy in Australia. Neither of those things deny the a government the right to call itself democratic - democracy remains the process of each electorate choosing a person who will reflect their ideology (including their intolerance).

      By all means the government of the day can attempt to lead the change - but it is a political risk - when it comes down to it, that risk goes directly to the livelihood of the politicians concerned. Accordingly, democracy does not produce rules that are just by any objective means, it produces results that are just within the the subjective opinion of the majority (therefore, popular).

    • Fred says:

      03:08pm | 01/07/10

      DG I don’t think you realise how many decisions have been made for the minority over the majority.  Did you know the right for women to work had a majority of the population against it? The fact is governments can’t be purely for the majority, otherwise my family wouldn’t be considered citizens and I wouldn’t be allowed to work (and get paid for it) or vote

    • Stooge62 says:

      10:24am | 02/07/10

      After all the accusations regarding censoreship and freedom of speech, why am I being censored by this site?

    • Mini says:

      05:21am | 21/09/10

      Does democracy give someone the freedom to be oppressed? There’s no doubt that hooding people is oppressive, whether they agree to it or not.
      Hooding people is an interrogation technique used to dehumanise someone. Just because someone has developed Stockholm syndrome about being hooded and apparently “wants” to be oppressed does not make it ok.

      Also, the Muslim women have obviously been told “horror” stories of those Western lusty whores, bigots? racists? Women’s lib means that yes, a woman can choose her partner and deny a man, yes even her husband. Muslim men must indeed be very insecure.

      Also, no one is saying that you cannot wear robes, just cut-out the face part, so that you can interact with the rest of society, facial expressions are a more meaningful way of communicating than speech alone.

      Lastly, I’m Rastafarian, can I legally smoke weed in peace?

    • mini me says:

      05:29am | 21/09/10

      Were it not for their Muslims husbands, they would be wearing it. It only exists in the context of male ownership or “chaperones”. There’s no need to be scared of women’s liberation, the world really isn’t that scary. The won’t all up and leave you, oh…maybe that’s what they are scared of?

 

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