There is a tendency, in profiles of Christopher Hitchens, for the bestselling atheist and militant author to be defined solely in relation to his high-profile targets and the high-velocity force at which he hits them.

It's just as well he likes to talk about religion

Very rarely is it elucidated anywhere – except, of course, by Hitchens himself –  precisely why he has gone after such perennial favourites of the general populace as Mother Teresa, the Dalai Lama, and Bill Clinton.

That he took exception to the first’s acceptance of money from the Haitian dictator “Baby Doc” Duvalier, the second’s support for thermonuclear testing in India, and the third’s opportunistic decision to authorise the execution of a mentally retarded death row inmate in the middle of the 1992 Presidential election campaign, well, none of this ever really gets a look-in.

Instead, his objections are customarily glossed over with thinly-veiled contempt or patronising bemusement by those who are happy to wallow in received wisdom and consensus. “You don’t like Bill Clinton? Or Mother Theresa? But everybody knows those cats are great!”

When one takes Hitchens’ reasoned and meticulously researched attacks into proper account, however – as one must do unless one would happily accept gifts from the Duvaliers oneself, or sign away a lobotomised man’s life in order to appear tough on crime and win votes – one quickly realises that his true targets are not so much these mammals, as he likes to call them, as the mammalian vices and fallacies that they so clearly personify. Hitchens’ real targets, in this analysis, are hypocrisy, intellectual dishonesty, and the suppression of liberty by tyranny. Pretty good targets, by any reasonable standard.

And now, Hitchens seems fairly certain, he has found a figure who embodies all three. The figure in question? That would be God. And it will be God, too, that Hitchens goes after when he takes to the stage of the Sydney Opera House tonight, to argue, after the title of his most recent book, that God is not great and that religion poisons everything.

“It’s just as well I like to talk about it,” Hitchens intones down the line from his Washington, DC, apartment. “Because I said at the outset I wouldn’t refuse any challenge, and I have not yet turned down anyone who’s asked me to come and defend my position. I get invited by religious institutions, not less than about twice a month, to come and talk.”

“Luckily, I find it is a subject that doesn’t become dull,” he continues. “It is in a way the essential argument. All other arguments in a way descend from this one.”

To the extent that this is true, it is no surprise that a conversation with Hitchens is liable to open out at any moment onto any one of a thousand plateaus. His conversation with The Punch, for example, takes in everything from Pope Benedict XVI (“an extreme reactionary who wants to return the Mass to Latin and welcome the Lefebvre fascists back in the fold “) to Quentin Tarantino’s Inglourious Basterds (“like sitting in the dark having a great pot of warm piss emptied very slowly over your head”).

It touches upon 9/11 (“one of those things that is, I think quite rightly, thought of as a defining litmus”), leftist opposition to American foreign policy (“if you think that American imperialism and its globalised, capitalist form is the most dangerous thing in the world, that means you don’t think the Islamic Republic of Iran or North Korea or the Taliban is as bad,” he cautions), and the death of newspapers (“I don’t think it will be true of either the magazine or the book, but the newspaper world is going to change beyond all recognition”).

But the point on which he remains most outspoken is the poisonous influence of religion. Shown an extract from Kevin Rudd’s now-famous essay, ‘Faith In Politics’, which was published in the October 2006 issue of The Monthly, Hitchens responds that the prime minister’s argument that “Christianity must always take the side of the marginalised, the vulnerable and the oppressed” sounds suspiciously to him like “wish-thinking”.

“Christianity is just as likely to be an ally – and for most of its life has been the ally – of the Establishment, the rich and the forces of law and order,” he says, “so it’s purely subjective for Rudd to say that. There’s nothing in Christianity that obliges you to take the side of the poor and the downtrodden.”

“Indeed, it’s futile to try and use Holy Scripture to support any political position,” he continues. “I deeply distrust anyone who does. Just look at what an Islamic Republic is like.”

It’s not just politics that religion poisons, however. It’s everything from the media and publishing industries to scientific inquiry to the parenting of our progeny.

“I think that it’s very questionable whether anyone should be compelled, by family or by school, to attend any religious event,” Hitchens says. “It would be very, very difficult indeed to forbid it, and I don’t think one should probably try, but that doesn’t mean that general social approval of it should be automatic. I think people should look sort of slightly askance at people who do this to their kids.”

“A lot of people would say, “Look, it’s their religion, it’s their right,’” he anticipates. “Yeah, okay. I can’t stop them. But I can withdraw approval from it. And I think one should take that line with people who say, ‘Oh, of course, we’re sending little Johnny to Saint Ignatius,’ or whatever it is, or making their children go to Sunday school.”

For it is, he says, merely a hop, skip and jump from there to the kooky ashram or the polygamist’s compound – or, indeed, from the bris to the female circumcision ritual.

“I think it should certainly be illegal to perform any operation on the genitals of the child that isn’t mandated by surgical or medical necessity,” he says. “No non-elective surgery for children of any sort. I think they should send you straight to jail for that. They do if you do it to little girls in America, but not to little boys. I think it should be across the board.”

“Just as, you know, we say to the Mormons, ‘Utah can remain a state of the Union only if you give up, not just polygamy, but what polygamy’s really a cover for, which is marrying underage girls to filthy old male relatives who can’t get laid,’” he says. “I think a few more high-profile legal and other moral cases of this kind would do an enormous amount of good. What needs to be challenged is the idea that religious belief automatically confers some sort of moral standing on a person.”

Indeed, Hitchens says, those men and women of faith we remember and respect for having served at some point or other as a moral compass – he cites Dr Martin Luther King and Dietrich Bonhoeffer in the book, the latter of whom Kevin Rudd cited too, for reasons of his own, in his essay – often managed to do so in spite of, not because of, the religious authorities the were working under. To refuse credit for our virtues, Hitchens argues, while gladly taking on debt for our vices, is to deny in the worst way possible our essential and innate humanity.

“Name me one moral action or moral statement,” he likes to challenge his lecture audiences, “that has been performed or made by a true believer and could not have been performed or made by an atheist.” To Hitchens, the idea that ‘Without God we are Nothing’ – as the Archbishop of Sydney, Cardinal George Pell, will be arguing at the Opera House tomorrow – is an inherently self-loathing, and loathsome, proposition. (Hitchens will not be debating Pell, as he has done large swathes of the religious establishment stateside, but one hopes they might attend each other’s talks and have a run-in in the lobby afterwards.)

Equally loathsome, he further suggests, is the idea that religion cannot be touched simply because people believe in it so fervently. He points to the recent decision of Yale University Press not to include in one of its new books, The Cartoons That Shook the World by Jytte Klausen, the cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed that were published in the Danish newspaper Jyllands-Posten in 2005 and which, as the book’s title suggests, subsequently shook the world. In addition to the usual fear of reprisals and some other base concerns, Hitchens says, the decision betrays a perverse willingness to sacrifice free speech and other fundamental liberties simply to avoid stepping on anyone’s toes.

“Something that is quite pervasive now, not just in publishing and in the academy, but elsewhere, is a version of multiculturalism, or multiculturalist etiquette, whereby you pre-emptively don’t offend anyone by not publishing anything that anyone could really disagree with,” he says. “But of course that is indeed the cost of free speech.”

“If you made the concession at all, it’s extremely likely you’ll start making it across the board,” he warns. “It becomes very, very difficult to refuse it to anybody once you concede it to anyone. This has a tremendously depressing effect on the culture.”

And so the forces secularism and reason must be rallied to the fore once again. “What I used to say to people, when I was much more engagé myself,” Hitchens says of this rallying, “is that you can’t be apolitical. It will come and get you. It’s not that you shouldn’t be neutral. It’s that you won’t be able to stay neutral.”

And on no point is this truer today, or as important, he would wager, than on the question of religious belief and the threat he is certain it poses to civilisation. “You can tell a great deal about someone from whether or not they believe they’re the object of a divine design,” he says.

“This is not a minor difference of opinion. It’s a fundamental one.”

HITCHENS ON:

John Pilger

I remember thinking that his work from Vietnam was very good at the time. I dare say if I went back and read it again I’d probably still admire quite a lot of it. But there is a word that gets overused and can be misused – namely, anti-American – and it has to be used about him. So that for me sort of spoils it, so even when I’m inclined to agree.

Clive James

He’s an amazingly polymathic guy. I was having dinner the other night with Robert Conquest, who’s one of the greatest living poets in English and also scholars in poetry, and whose good opinion is hard to get and very well worth having. He said, “You know, the thing about Clive’s stuff, about Clive’s poems, is that they’re always good in one way or another.” His opinion in this case would be more worth printing than mine, but you can say that it was me who told you.

Gore Vidal

He is in many ways quite a right-wing isolationist. It’s because some people are naïve enough to confuse this with anti-imperialism that they think of him as being rather more to the left than he really is. The last time I saw him it was sort of painful and I have a feeling that probably was our last meeting.

Hugo Chávez

I can see why people find him charming. He’s very ebullient, as they say. I’ve heard him make a speech, though, and he has a vice that’s always very well worth noticing because it’s always a bad sign: he doesn’t know when to sit down. He’s worse than Castro was. He won’t shut up. Then he told me that he didn’t think the United States landed on the moon and didn’t believe in the existence of Osama bin Laden. He thought all of this was all a put-up job. He’s a wacko.

43 comments

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    • alto says:

      01:53pm | 03/10/09

      I like the way Hitchens is unafraid to attack sacred cows of all kinds. He does it because it’s worth doing and he does it well because he is well-researched and thinks it through. Though not as anti-religion as Hitchens, I am an atheist of Christian upbringing, who rebelled against the teachings while in my mid-teens. I still resent the way my parents and the Christian principal of my state school combined to try to force me to attend religious school class.

      I agree with Hitchens’ rejection of the claim that religion leads to a more moral society. Like Hitchens, I defy a defenders of such a claim to provide one example of a moral decision that a Christian could make that an atheist would not have the skills to make.

    • Daniel says:

      02:46pm | 03/10/09

      He is a very clever individualistic thinker. Independant thinker he could be boxed as.

    • Gibbot says:

      03:10pm | 03/10/09

      Thanks Matthew for drawing attention to a voice of reason. Hitchens, like our own Phillip Adams and the eminent Professor Dawkins, is making an invaluable contribution to the furthering of society. It is not his stance against religion in itself that is remarkable. It is a view fortunately shared by a substantial and ever increasing segment of society. What is remarkable is the clarity of his thought and unassailable common sense. The world could use many more like him.

      I will be attending tonight. I greatly hope to share the audience with many young people. Our generation is in all likelihood lost to superstition and divisive nonsense. The situation is not quite so bleak for the generations to follow.

    • Nicholas James says:

      03:18pm | 03/10/09

      @Matthew

      I have just one question and I would appreciate a response.

      Imagine this hypothetical situation.

      Your mother, brother, wife, child etc is lying in your arms, dying, slowly. The love you feel for them insights such helplessness that it crushes your chest, your skin prickle and makes your head spin as you struggle to grasp reality. They are dying from neglect by society, a self-serving, narcissistic society. They will die in three minutes unless 1 gram of gold is placed in their hand, all you need is 1 gram of gold to give them, then they will live. Standing over you is a man, corrupt, evil. Now this man will give you this gram of gold that will save the life of your loved one and ask for nothing in return but for (who knows but let’s be speculative) him to feel a sense of reprieve from his actions, to feel human and decent but for a moment.

      Imagine it wasn’t one loved one, but thousands. Imagine he wasn’t offering 1 gram, but thousands. Imagine 2 minutes had passed and you had only 1 minute left.

      Answer me this; can you, Matthew, point out one person on earth, one person who knows true love, who has such a sense of self righteousness that they would not sacrifice everything they identify with and take what is being offered to save their love?

      If you can, side with the man who criticises Mother Teresa, a woman who saved so many. If not, perhaps be wary of propagating such poison as that which strives to taint her memory.

    • regina says:

      03:33pm | 03/10/09

      i don’t necessarily agree with all of christopher hichens’  views but he’s such a clever interesting man and an original thinker.

      i love that he sparks genuine debate about real issues rather than the sort of drivel that is labelled ‘opinion’ in the media.

      oh and at the risk of being branded un-pc (actually i don’t care if i am), i also think he’s rather dashing.

    • Mark says:

      04:41pm | 03/10/09

      I like his ability to make people think. Exposing the political agendas of some who hide behind their religion of choice. He is knowledgeable and has a very good understanding of what is going on. Mr Hitchens can make you look pretty silly if you allow him as seen on SBS Q and A. Good work.

    • AT says:

      07:26pm | 03/10/09

      Yes, “Hitchens’ reasoned and meticulously researched attacks [on] hypocrisy, intellectual dishonesty, and the suppression of liberty by tyranny [are] Pretty good targets”, his railing against religion is just and noble and he’s probably got a big donger, too.

      The other night on Q&A, speaking about the Polanski palaver, Hitchens rather hysterically described champagne and PART of a quaalude (the party drug of the day) as narcotics, seemed to be more indignant at a successful legal action by Polanski against ‘his magazine’ Vanity Fair, than Polanski’s crime and seemed to relish the prospect of ‘Polanski getting screwed’ for personal rather than scholarly judicial reasons.

      I would have thought the ethically compromised prosecuting authorities pursuit of Polanski and the demented baying for blood by the titillated armchair vigilantes was more worthy an avenue of exploration for the crusading iconoclast, but he’s not the messiah, he’s just a very witty raconteur.

      Let’s not deify the bloke lest he become an oppressive intellectual presence in the same way he rightly protests religion has become an oppressive moral presence.

    • Biff says:

      09:01pm | 03/10/09

      Mr Hitchens is rather forthright when expressing his views and he isn’t afraid of sticking his head up knowing it will be kicked. He does cause a bit of introspection and in these days of PC that can’t be a bad thing.

    • Gibbot says:

      09:25pm | 03/10/09

      @Nicholas James’ semi coherent comment - Mother Theresa’s barbaric views on contraception caused at least as much misery as she prevented, probably much more. I have no doubt that she meant well, but the woman was an idiot.

      Isn’t there something in some fairytale book somewhere about worshipping false idols?

    • stephen says:

      10:43pm | 03/10/09

      I like his writing because he has no point of view.

    • Dan says:

      10:52pm | 03/10/09

      I’m sorry, but I have nothing but contempt for Hitchens. As well as being a narcisist, he’s a self-righteous Islamophobic and anti-semite who seems to think that it’s perfectly acceptable to kill millions of Muslims in the ‘war on terrorism.’ He’s just as much of an extremist as the religious extremists he hates so much, yet he knows nothing about religion (and international politics) and It astounds me why people care what this fool thinks. He’s a hypocrite, and is a legend only in in his own mind. We should stop indulging him and should ignore him, as he deserves nothing else.

    • Richard says:

      12:55pm | 04/10/09

      I admire Hitchens greatly, anI find Gibbot’s favorable comparison with Phillip Adams amazingly wrong.  The great thing about Hitchens is that his arguments are thoroughly reasoned and not simply driven by a pre-determined position on the political or social spectrum.  He is often described as a leftist, and many of his arguments certainly contain strong progressive elements - and yet, contrary to the stereotype, he supports the war against terrorism and opposes Islamofascism.  The point is, of course, that his views are consistent in that they are driven by a logical humanism, unlike many so-called progressives who lurch into unreasoning prejudice or large blind-spots when addressing issues such as these (eg Dan above).  Adams falls into the latter category.  His views are often driven by blind prejudice and ignorance.  Also, again totally unilke Hitchens, he intensely dislikes being challenged and will resort to mere abuse and personal attack when it occurs.  Hitchens judges issues on their merits according to his values (which are fundamental to Western civilisation).  Adams judges them according to his often blindly prejudiced views on personalities.  Adams also promotes anything which supports his views, no matter how dubious, and ignores facts which are inconvenient to them.  Hitchens and Adams could not be more different.

    • Jarrad M says:

      01:37pm | 04/10/09

      Mr Hitchens views on religion speak what so many people think and yet are too scared to speak openly about due to political correctness.

      How can people even begin to justify not teaching evolution in schools and the lies that are told by the religious groups to try and discredit scientists in this field.

      Or the notion that without religion society would become immoral and we would start killing and raping one another at will.

      Or teaching children horror stories that if they don’t follow a strict set of commandments they will burn in hell for an eternity.

      And the list goes on. Keep it up Mr Hitchens!!!

    • pc says:

      01:53pm | 04/10/09

      Nicolas James,

      I understand it is difficult to believe there is more to Mother Theresa than the orthodox explanation, as Gibbot pointed out, and I will try to expand. You seemed very keen on an answer.

      Though I may often disagree with Christopher, he at least gives reasons for his understanding of Mother Theresa, you just engaged in a somewhat wild speculation that assumes we share your understanding.

      Like many reactionary Catholics, (Chris might argue that all Catholics are reactionaries) Theresa does not believe that poverty is a problem of justice or inequality or even absence of wealth - she believes it is divine will and therefore to be celebrated. At no stage of her life was she interested in helping the poor out of their poverty. She celebrated poverty as she celebrated the wealth of the rich. It is a similar experience of missionaries that led Ghandi to say, and I paraphrase, “I would really like Christianity if I hadn’t met so many Christians.”

      I, fortunately, have met many Christians I like, though I have also met many, who may seem pleasant and friendly enough but scratch the surface and you will often find a worldview incompatible with the pluralism and tolerance they insist their religion represents. I caught a bit of that q and a, and I am an admirer of Father Frank Brennan, he has challenged or tried to challenge his church on many issues, but it was difficult not to notice his inability to say “Homosexuality is not a sin” or vice versa. Now I don’t think he should HAVE to answer that question, but neither should we pretend the church militant has become all pluralistic because confession is now called reconciliation. I’m an admirer of Waleed Aly, but he couldn’t answer the question either.

      Dan,

      I disagreed with his positions on the war on terror and the invasion of Iraq, but unlike his neo con allies, he at least took an intellectually honest position. It was not because he particularly dislikes Semitic peoples (The children of Islam and Judaism,  the children of Abraham, are both Semitic people.) I think it would be fair to say he dislikes everyone’s religion, but not that he dislikes everyone. I have no illusions about Christopher’s infallibility and neither does he, his role as a public intellectual is in most demand as one who challenges others, he never pretends to have the solutions. (Well I guess sometimes he does.)

      Does anyone know what Christopher thinks of political correctness? I don’t, but I’d bet nothing. Maybe Gibbot could tell us about the dangerous ideas night and I bet that he never mentioned pc. Even if pc had any meaning it doesn’t anymore. Why attack two letters – pc –that no one actually ever comes out for. I’ve never heard a public intellectual, politician or even punter say “We should bloody think/do what pc tells us to think/do……” So why is that people say “I’m not going to bloody think what pc wants me to think/do.” It seems to me, that no matter what the position, people declare their position to be anti –pc. Partly I guess we define our position by what we think it is not. Maybe these people are trying to say they disagree with the popular or majority position. I don’t know. The anti pc position seems to be a lazy definition of ones position.

    • Nicholas James says:

      02:03pm | 04/10/09

      @Gibbot

      I am glad that your point of view counts for nothing and you lead of life of zero impact.

    • acker says:

      04:54pm | 04/10/09

      Join the scrapheap of attack everything but solve nothing meatheads that litter the pages of history “Hitchen’s”.

      Nothing exeptional here compared to any other alcholic rave at a late night party or nightclub….....except he records his rants.

    • Nicholas James says:

      05:41pm | 04/10/09

      @pc You state I “just engaged in a somewhat wild speculation that assumes we share your understanding.” Whilst I feel the rest of your statement has clarity and I respect your point of view, I do not understand what part of mine warranted the above response. I was not stating that Mother Theresa’s views when I stated society was self-serving etc; I was stating mine. Nor was I claiming that she was dedicated to helping the poor out of poverty. She was dedicated to helping them lead a life of dignity, but you, I assume, already knew that. Also, on the question of whether homosexuality is a sin, I wonder what your understanding of “sin” is? In relation to one other point you made, what strikes me as amusing is that when it comes down to it, it seems to me that contemporary Christians are far more tolerant of the views of others than the others are of Christians. One only needs to look at the relentless Christian bashing here on this site to come to that conclusion. I find Christians to be some of the most tolerant of all the people I have come across in my life and I find those whose vitriolic, militant views, such as Hitchens and his supporters, to be the least… Something else I would like to point out is that at no point in my comments in this forum have I claimed to be a “Christian” myself and I find it relatively humorous that I seem to cop the wrath of those who oppose them as though I had. For example, the way Gibbot keeps ranting about fairies and fairy tales in his/her responses to me… It really is quite interesting and is something to think about when it comes to tolerance of others views.

    • Dan says:

      07:10pm | 04/10/09

      pc, his comments on Islam lead me to believe that his Islamophobic, while his comparisons of the Danish cartoon riots to Crystalnacht leads me to believe that he’s anti-semitic. I think he’s a horrible fool, and I have absolutely no time for him.

    • John Hooper says:

      09:08pm | 04/10/09

      Dan, you confuse “Islamophobia” with the converse: that is not being so scared (phobic) of Islam that one is terrified into cowering before it.

      It may surprise you that many of us, who likewise do not believe in Islam, neither want to be dictated in any way by it. If that causes offence to those who do believe in it, then that’s just too bad for them. People believe in all kinds of nonsense. That’s their problem, not ours.

    • sHx says:

      08:48am | 05/10/09

      @Dan: “I think he’s a horrible fool, and I have absolutely no time for him.”

      Yeah! So, it seems.

      @John Hopper: “Dan, you confuse “Islamophobia” with the converse: that is not being so scared (phobic) of Islam that one is terrified into cowering before it.”

      Never let good sense get in the way of a good smear.

      @Nicholas James
      Mate, your hypothetical tale is a true tear-jerker. I am even angrier with god for putting us through such ordeals. Why-o-why does he still punish us for that lousy apple?

    • Steve B says:

      09:08am | 05/10/09

      I have been around and seen a lot. This is what I believe to be the truth. Beware of people that claim to be the defenders of the truth, provocateurs and raconteurs. Their words spill over you like honey and induce the sort of euphoric state that is not found in fundamental believers of God, but in people that are devoid of love. I found Hitchens to be a clever and sad man whose words are only destroy the concept of love-the only thing that will pull this world together. Tolerance and pluralism is not love of you fellow human. Before you can do this you need to love yourself something I suspect Hitchens is currently not capable of achieving as his venom is indicative of what lies in his heart. As an aside, Nicholas James you are a Christian just admit it!

    • waldo says:

      10:57am | 05/10/09

      Hitchens is a rabid self-promoter who’d sleaze his own mother if the thought it would gain him a ten second slot on a morning chat show.

    • Jason says:

      11:07am | 05/10/09

      @ Nicholas

      People will use words like fairies or imaginary friend if you try to tell them that your personal god exists (and more so if you tell them to act a certain way because of your personal god).  If you have an imaginary friend the emphasis is on you to keep him or her to yourself and not expect the other adults around you to humor you.

      In a democracy everyone gets a vote- and its a damn shame to think that some people are making their decisions based upon one book, whilst others are reading widely and looking to their own life experience.

      Call me intolerant if you wish- I really don’t care.  The line (of logic and rationality) has to be drawn somewhere.

    • Nicholas James says:

      12:20pm | 05/10/09

      @Jason

      What I think is a damn shame is that people vote based on their lack of life experience and closed minded attituted.

    • sHx says:

      12:34pm | 05/10/09

      @Waldo

      If Jesus can do it, then so can Hitchens. Except that Hitchens never claims he is a god or that his mother was a virgin.

    • Dan says:

      12:52pm | 05/10/09

      John Hooper,nobody said that you have to believe in Islam, but attacking Islam on a thread that has absolutely nothing to do with it IS racist. The fact that you talk about cowering before it, IS racist.

    • Gibbot says:

      01:49pm | 05/10/09

      @Richard:

      “Hitchens and Adams could not be more different. “

      Agreed. Just as in many ways Hitchens and Dawkins are poles apart. I wasn’t drawing comparisons between them, nor advocating the viewpoint of one over the other. Their diversity of opinion is in a way the whole point. Unlike religion, atheism demands no homogeneity of belief or political ideology. It is a position that is arrived at individually. All three named have come under intense public criticism for having the courage to speak out against religion, and it was this fact alone I was alluding to.

      I’ll comfortably wager that there are many atheists in parliament - on both sides of the political divide, yet how many are willing to incur the wrath of the Christian lobby by publicly stating as much?

      @PC - Unfortunately a last minute change of plans meant I missed Hitchens’ speech, so I can’t give a first hand report. If political correctness was mentioned at all I could only imagine it would be to warn against it. As John Hooper pointed out, for too long we’ve pandered to stupidity out of fear of causing affront. An imbecilic notion is not somehow worthy of respect solely because it was arrived at through faith rather than reason.

      Creationism is not an ‘alternate theory’ to evolution. There are no ‘chosen people’ favoured by some divine real estate agent. Blowing yourself up will not get you a swag of virgins to play with.  Preventing starving people in third world countries from having access to contraception is not noble. These are just stupid and dangerous beliefs. If someone wants to believe them privately, nobody is going to stop them. But if they’re going to proclaim them as truth, or worse, indoctrinate children with them, then they deserve every bit of criticism and rebuttal they get. Why should we show tolerance to views that would have us revert to the dark ages?

      It strikes me as funny that whenever anyone does level criticism at any aspect of religion they are instantly labelled as ‘hate filled’ or ‘irrelevant’ by adherents. I think this is much more a projection of the adherent’s own capacity for hate. All the atheists I know are humanist, and for my own part my contempt is reserved for religion - not the religious. Does one hate a diabetic for having diabetes?

    • Steve B says:

      02:03pm | 05/10/09

      @Jason
      The Christian, Islamic and Jewish scholars form some of the most widely read and articulate people of our times. They chose 1 book after reading what else the world has to offer. The line you draw is hyperbolic and illogical and rather than intolerant, perpetuates the facile and plebeian nature of Australian attitude to wards metaphysical thinking.

    • Bateman says:

      02:44pm | 05/10/09

      These comments show that arguing with people that believe in a flying spaghetti monster is pointless. They have more experience and will just drag you down to their level.

      Mr Hitchens is an incredibly erudite, passionate, articulate and intelligent man and it is unfortunate that he has dedicated his life to this pursuit rather than trying to solve other problenms like the peak oil crisis.

    • Josh Kelt says:

      02:59pm | 05/10/09

      I think that someone that Australians fail to realise is that we actually live in a world where the vast majority of individuals have faith/religion that governs their lives.

      Yet so many people here talk like it is just a small percentage of fringe lunatics that will shortly be eradicated with continued modernisation. I think some of you need to take a second look at the world we live in.

    • Jason says:

      03:36pm | 05/10/09

      Steve B- Please mate.
      The majority of religious people use one text because it has been forced on them (and certainly not as a result of wide reading and rejection of those other ideas they have been exposed to).  I would also like to add that most Christians I encounter haven’t actually read the Bible either!  Please type in ‘God Warrior” or “Shirly Phelps” into a search engine to view some of the most ‘widely read and articulate people of our time’.

      And seriously- that religious scholars can articulate an argument does not mean that it translates into reality.

      The line I draw is this: If it cant be measured, tested and experienced equally by all- it is not worth bringing to the table. 

      Imaginary friends- Keep them to yourself- No I will not play along and pretend they are real.

    • pc says:

      03:58pm | 05/10/09

      Gibbot, Its a bummer you didnt make it, I would have loved to hear what he had to say and your analysis of what was said. I’m sure Chris would have objections to the idea that there was a politically correct position, but I doubt he would have said he took a position because it was the anti pc position.

      “An imbecilic notion is not somehow worthy of respect solely because it was arrived at through faith rather than reason…....These are just stupid and dangerous beliefs. If someone wants to believe them privately, nobody is going to stop them. But if they’re going to proclaim them as truth, or worse, indoctrinate children with them, then they deserve every bit of criticism and rebuttal they get. Why should we show tolerance to views that would have us revert to the dark ages?”

      Gibbot that is exactly the point. Religious people are not denied their opportunity to speak. The reality is they are given far more opportunity to speak than athiests, and yet when they are criticised they claim they are being silenced. Gibbot is not trying to silence religious people, he is challenging them. Why are religious people so scared of being challenged?

    • Gibbot says:

      04:17pm | 05/10/09

      @Josh Kelt,

      I don’t fail to realise the reality of your statement. Quite frankly it terrifies me.

      Some 40% of the US (and the numbers in Australia aren’t that far behind,) believe the Earth was created in seven days, just under six thousand years ago. These people run schools. They lobby the media. They dress up in beer bottle costumes and infiltrate the Senate.

      This is no ‘small percentage of fringe luntics’. It is a large percentage of mainstream lunatics. Reason & sanity are being pushed to the fringe.

    • Steve B says:

      04:17pm | 05/10/09

      Jason
      Thank you for reinforcing the last sentence of my last statement.
      The line you draw has just negated the advancement of theoretical physics, but maybe these are imaginary forces as well to which you do not ascribe. As to the rest of your comments, they are not germain to what I wrote therefore I will not comment upon.

    • Matthew Clayfield says:

      05:13pm | 05/10/09

      Thank you all for reading the piece. I really appreciate it.

      I do have some responses to your comments.

      Nicholas James, your convoluted if well-meaning rewrite of Pascal’s Wager is as cynical as the original; and your (non-)defence of Agnesë Gonxhe Bojaxhiu is as unfounded as everyone else’s. There’s little more I can add to this. If you’re suggesting that I repent on my deathbed, or while those I know and love are on theirs, to hedge my bets, then I suggest you re-examine the reasons you yourself believe. If, as it turns out, Christopher Hitchens (and yes, myself, though let’s remember that I didn’t reveal my own irreligious tendencies in the article) are wrong, then he would, after Bertrand Russell, say to God upon his death: “But God, you didn’t give us enough evidence.” If, as it turns out, you are wrong, you will have believed for no reason other than cynical ones. If God exists, I rather hope he would say to me, “Well, at least you were honest.” Pascal’s Wager is not; and nor, I would wager, is your invocation of it.

      The other so-called arguments against Hitchens - that he is a self-promoter, a drunk, a sleaze-ball, whatever - have approximately nothing to do with the manner in which he executes his argument. You don’t deny Hemingway or Joyce or Fitzgerald their literary brilliance because they were drunks, or Capote his although he was both a drunk and a self-promoter. And yet you seem to suggest that Hitchens is wrong simply because he drinks a lot. (Also, to be fair, you’re wrong on that point as well. Hitchens has cut back on his drinking, and no longer smokes at all. Your attacks, let alone the lack of logic and reason with which you forward them, are null and void. Chin chin.)

      The political attacks, I admit, are harder to square. I myself am someone who has a great many problems with the invasion of Iraq and the continued occupation in that country. The thing to realise, though, is this: Hitchens’ argument for invasion was not that of the Bush administration, and his arguments for doing waging war on that country were in fact entirely valid. If Bush had forwarded Hitchens’ arguments, there is nothing to say that the UN and the European powers wouldn’t have gotten behind him. As it was, the invasion was plugged on false pretences, and indeed we should all be rather pissed about that. (As we should, as Hitchens was, be pissed about the war’s execution.) But to the extent that Hitchens argued for, and supported, the war in Iraq, he was actually right to do so. Certainly, there was nothing in his argument that was at odds with the positions he’d taken in the past against any other fascist or totalitarian power. I suggest you look up his arguments on the subject, because your generalisations don’t stand up. Those of you who call him an apologist for torture and war crimes should similarly run a Google search. Hitchens body-slammed, in the most fierce way possible, the grotesque behaviour at Abu Ghraib, and indeed the manner in which the occupation on the whole was handled. He has also body-slammed, on moral grounds, the use of waterboarding (which he underwent, after initially supporting the practice, before changing his mind on and therefore disproving those of you who consider him unmovably dogmatic).

      My advice to all the naysayers here is to read the man, at length, and with an open mind. You may be surprised by what you find. He is not a neo-con. He is not right-wing. He is post-ideological, in his way, and his arguments are grounded in libertarian philosophy: he believes in freedom, first and foremost, and those of you who believe that Iraq was more free under Saddam than it is now, or than the Islamic Republic of Iran is morally comparable (or even morally superior) to the United States, need to read more of his, and others, work. His comments on multiculturalism – a phenomenon I am a fan of, just for the record, until the point it becomes a form of appeasement - are directed directly at you. Take note.

    • Nicholas James says:

      08:52pm | 05/10/09

      @Matthew,

      Your intellectually over-compensating attempt to backhandedly patronise amuses as much as it saddens.

      It amuses in that it reeks of inexperience. Your self-pleasuring, self-assuring discourse reminded me of a discussion I recently had on a plane with a 17 year old Jewish musician adorned with fresh multi-coloured high-tops, thick, black, rectangular yet à la mode spectacles, a tremendous bouquet of soft, dark, robust ringlets and spindly, graceful hands which, quite spectacularly, allowed for the simultaneous consumption of Fresh Prince of Belair, pre-post editing of Facebook “party” photos and skimming of sheet after sheet of Schubert on his Mac Book.

      When I asked him what was his instrument of choice; his response was nothing short of magnificent:

      “my olds made me *expletive* around with the *expletive* violin when I was a kid, but these days I tear up the decks, it’s what gets the bi-atches, no-whad-’m sayin’?”

      In this he provided tremendous insight into his fears, insecurities, aspirations, motivations, idolisations and ultimately, his beliefs. Yet he did not answer the question… at least not directly.

      You say that through the proposition of my question I have ‘dishonestly’ ‘invoked’ Pascal’s Wager; I wonder if you are in fact referring to my question in this post or perhaps are mistaking my question with my invocation of Pascal’s Wager in points put forth in prior discussion.

      Perhaps you do not entirely grasp what is Pascal’s Wager. The only way in which I can see the application of Pascal’s Wager in my question is through your acceptance of decency in man coming through God in a form of acceptance or rejection and in this your own acceptance of the possibility of God and thus adherence to the truthful reality of Pascal’s Wager. The fact of the matter is I was not referring to God (as best I can) at all in my question, only man and the actions of man as per the nature of man.

      Following on with this, in your response you quite remarkably articulated two possible realities to further the above point. Firstly, that I am right and Hitchens and yourself are wrong and thus you will behave accordingly or in contrast you and Hitchens are right and I am wrong and thus behave accordingly. In this I see the most pure invocation of Pascal’s Wager as yet, by you. Hence, through your acceptance of its reality, and consequently, your acceptance of God in a way perhaps you are yet to realise, it is you who are the cynic. For a moment you left aside the dogma and accepted the unknown, accepted the possibility and rejected its positivity. Consequently I fail to see how it is I who is the cynic…

      Perhaps you should stick to complaining about how tired and run down you are, accept your innate cynicism and have another go at philosophy 101.

      Oh, I almost forgot about the ‘saddens me’ part. Your response saddens me in that you have this position, a position of influence, and yet do not realise your power on opinion. This much is demonstrated through an astounding, “though let’s remember that I didn’t reveal my own irreligious tendencies in the article”. Yes Matthew, yes you did. Not that I have a problem with whatever tendencies you have per se, just be aware of what you are actually doing and do not underestimate your readers.

    • pc says:

      10:20pm | 05/10/09

      First let me say that I enjoyed this too Matthew. I especially enjoyed your unmasking of NJ’s attempt to decieve us all. That doesnt seem a terribly Christian thing to do NJ, and you know youre busted which is why you wrote another long and convoluted post that doesnt seem to say anything except “Dont say anything mean about christianity.” The only bit of any relevance follows

      “You say that through the proposition of my question I have ‘dishonestly’ ‘invoked’ Pascal’s Wager; I wonder if you are in fact referring to my question in this post or perhaps are mistaking my question with my invocation of Pascal’s Wager in points put forth in prior discussion.

      Perhaps you do not entirely grasp what is Pascal’s Wager. The only way in which I can see the application of Pascal’s Wager in my question is through your acceptance of decency in man coming through God in a form of acceptance or rejection and in this your own acceptance of the possibility of God and thus adherence to the truthful reality of Pascal’s Wager”

      As I said, it makes no sense - at least to me, maybe someone else could actually explain what you are trying to say.

      Back to Matthew and the discussion of appeasement and the Iraq war. I dont think that Matthew was describing those who opposed the war as appeasers but made the point

      “those of you who believe that Iraq was more free under Saddam than it is now,

      I dont know anybody who opposed the war that would argue Iraq was now less free than under Saddam. (Though for many years it has been more dangerous.) The problem was that before the invasion, Saddam had offered to give way to all of the U.S demands. James Risen “Iraq said to have Tried to Reach Last Minute Deal to avert War.” New York Times 6, Nov 2003.

      On March 6 2003 Bush lied, “I want to remind you that its his choice to make as to whether or not we go to war. Its Saddams choice. Hes the person that can make the choice of war and peace. Thus far he’s made the wrong choice.”

      The last minute deal was rejected by the Bush administration because it would mean the possibility of the separation of Iraq and of course they wouldnt have their military on the ground to make certain of the political outcome. The irony is well articulated by another Englishman George Monbiot.

      “Had a peaceful resolution of these disputes been attempted. Osama bin Laden might now be in custody, Iraq might be a pliant and largely peaceful nation finding its own way to democracy, and the prevailing sentiment within the Muslim world might be sympathy for the United States, rather than anger and resentment. Now, who are the dreamers and the useful idiots and who are the pragmatists?” (George Monbiot. The Guardian. Nov 11 2003)

    • Matthew Clayfield says:

      10:29pm | 05/10/09

      A re-reading of your gram-of-gold story gives me cause to correct myself, Nicholas James. You weren’t rewriting Pascal’s Wager, you’re right. You were defending Mother Theresa. It still strikes me as cynical, though, not to mention flawed by its lack of specificity. What sort of evil, corrupt man are we talking? Duvalier? Well, why stop at him? Would you forgive Hitler if he was the one offering the gold? What’s the point of such stupid hypotheticals anyway? Even if they weren’t stupid, they’d still not be relevant in Agnesë‘s case. She didn’t save anyone with Duvalier’s money. She only built more missions in which to baptise the dying and cultivate death. She proclaimed suffering a gift from God, remember. People died because of her.

      Returning to my misreading, though, if you want to talk about the Wager, I’m happy to argue about the Wager. You seem to be suggesting that I am suggesting that God may indeed exist. Well, he might. It just seems unlikely. Certainly, there’s no reason to believe that he does. And the absence of evidence, as Hitchens puts it rather nicely, seems to me the evidence of absence. Sure, I may not be able to prove with absolute certainty that he does not exist, but you can’t prove beyond reasonable doubt that he does. And if the best reason for believing the latter proposition is that he might, despite the contrasting evidence, then that’s not a particularly good reason at all. Unicorns may or may not exist, too, but with save little reason to believe they do, I’m going to take a punt and suggest that they don’t.

      To be fair, you’re probably right to suggest that my personal opinion shines through in the piece. The fact that I let Hitchens speak his mind without refracting his words through the usual prism of consensus and without trying to avoid offence is, perhaps, a pretty good tell. Or I might just be giving the interviewee his head. You never know.

      And for the record, bringing up my age doesn’t constitute an argument. It constitutes a clutching at straws.

    • Tags says:

      01:41am | 06/10/09

      Hitchens’ God is not Great should be required reading in all schools. Especially the wishful-thinking ones…

    • Dan says:

      05:07am | 06/10/09

      Matthew Clayfield, one of Hitchens’s arguements for Iraq was that it would have provided good training for the American troops. How is that a valid argument?

    • Nicholas James says:

      08:22am | 06/10/09

      @ Matthew

      Age?

    • Matthew Clayfield says:

      02:30pm | 06/10/09

      I have read Hitchens claim that experience for US troops was a beneficial side-effect of the war, Dan, but I haven’t read him claim it as a reason for invasion. Perhaps you could direct me to the piece where does so? (I’m not saying it doesn’t exist. Only that I haven’t read it.) Even if you’re right, though, one lightweight argument doesn’t cancel out his more substantial ones, particularly those regarding Iraq’s forfeiture of sovereignty.

      Nicholas James. You accused me of inexperience and then compared me to a young man you flew with on a plane. Forgive me if this was in fact not an age-ist argument.

    • Andrew says:

      07:00pm | 06/10/09

      I think you’d find gay Iraqis would argue that their lives were comparatively freer under Saddam Husein, as would many women, Sunnis and secular Iraqis and the country’s religious minorities (Christians, the Peacock Angel worshiping Yazidis, Mandaeans), though obviously not the Shiites or the Kurds (regardless of faith).

      Saddam Husein was a monster, but in removing him we seem to have exchanged one monster for many, and after the first Gulf War his regime became very contained.

      That being said, I think it is vital that our troops remain in Afghanistan, even though the Government there are a shower of sh**s.

 

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