A couple of months ago I was gallivanting around the UK on a holiday. One night I popped up to the apartment I was crashing at to grab my jacket when I heard a voice through the window from the road below.

The beautiful Kimberley landscape in WA. A region haunted by suicide. Pic: Supplied

“Come on darlin’, you don’t have to do this.” Across the road a woman had climbed up onto the third story of some scaffolding. She wasn’t particularly sober, she’d tied a noose around her neck and she was about to jump.

If today is a typical day, by the time you’ve hit the hay tonight nearly 178 Aussies will have attempted to end their lives. Seven would have gone through with it. It’s a national tragedy. And in some remote parts of Australia it’s just tragedy after tragedy after tragedy after tragedy.

The Rudd Government’s former top mental health advisor John Mendoza told The Punch the suicide rate in the Kimberley, in far northwestern Australia, is currently 7 times the national average. In Cape York it is generally around 4 times the average.

A huge number of these deaths have been indigenous kids. In February, seven indigenous kids in the Kimberley – one a 13 year old girl – took their lives.

Is there anything more dreadful than this happening in Australia? Why is this happening?

“The most honest answer is we really don’t know [why they’re committing suicide],” says Emeritus Professor Bob Goldney, the former head of psychiatry at the University of Adelaide.

“There’s issues associated with psychiatric illness, the abuse of substances – especially alcohol. And there’s the precursor of that in a sense of being displaced from their land.”

Today is R U OK Day, the national day of action on suicide started by former advertising dynamo Gavin Larkin. The idea is you might approach a co-worker, a friend or a family member and ask them if they’re okay and if they need help. R U OK says one in ten Aussies asked someone if they were OK on this day last year.

But Professor Goldney doesn’t reckon it does all that much. 

“It’s feel-good and you can get a politician to inaugurate it, but does it do much good?” he says. “It probably won’t do any harm, but I can’t see it doing much good really.”

R U OK might be a start - if the campaign is even getting through to remote communities. But the troubled souls in some of these communities need much more than just one conversation, one day of the year. According to John Mendoza, the Federal Government’s former mental health advisor, Australia just isn’t doing enough.

“In very small, very remote indigenous communities the response of government and services on the ground is too slow and no where near adequate enough,” Mendoza says.

Mendoza says that the Kimberley now has things like 24/7 standby bereavement services that help communities bounce back from the grief caused by these suicides. And over the years governments have also introduced pilot programs to get indigenous kids working, in ecotourism and as sports guides for instance. But after two or three years their funding typically gets pulled.

“That’s not really the way to respond to what is an endemic problem,” Mendoza says. “We’ve got to make sure we stay at this task for a generation.

“We want to be able to see in a generation that we’ve kept at this, we haven’t stopped and started as has typically been the path [with mental health policies] over the past 25 years.”

A couple of months ago in the UK, I was transfixed at the window by the woman who was about to jump. She didn’t, in the end. She was talked down by the Bobby on the street.

R U OK is all about conversations. And it was a conversation that brought this woman back from the precipice. The Bobby even cracked a few jokes while he did it.

But the thing is, we need to have many conversations about what’s going on in the Kimberley, and in Cape York, in Alice Springs – and in Sydney and Adelaide and all the major cities. Serious, complicated, even political conversations about mental illness with every Australian, in every corner of Australia. For generations.

Because what’s happening in some remote indigenous communities just shouldn’t be happening in 21st century Australia. 

If you’re having trouble, Lifeline offers 24 hour crisis support on 13 11 14.

107 comments

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    • Erick says:

      06:13am | 15/09/11

      The suicide rate among Aborigines is higher than the suicide rate among non-Aborigines, and it gets covered in this article.

      The suicide rate among men is four times higher than the suicide rate among women, and it gets ignored in this article.

      Why is one group’s higher rate important, while the other is not?

    • Gregg says:

      07:47am | 15/09/11

      Perhaps Erick, it is bcause men are so more competent at getting it done and that fact does not need to be stressed as then we could have more people, women included pursuing how to be successful.

      What I also find very interesting is that when I first read this article, Anon’s post was the only one shown at 6.17 am and now guess whose is showing at the top!
      Should I be suicidal about you being given preferential treatment to have top post?

    • marley says:

      07:58am | 15/09/11

      Maybe because the suicide rate of aborigines is twice that of non-aborigines. If you care about male suicide rates, then think what that means - male aborigines commit suicide at cose to 8 times the rate of female non-aborigines. 

      Furthermore, the difference in suicide rates is most pronounced among younger people - in non-indigenous communities, suicide rates, especially amongst boys, have been dropping but we don’t seem to be getting the same results in indigenous communities.

    • stephen says:

      08:07am | 15/09/11

      Do plants attempt suicide ?
      That, Erick, will have to wait ?

    • Erick says:

      08:37am | 15/09/11

      @Gregg - So you’re saying that women are just too incompetent to kill themselves, even if they try? Also, why would you be surprised that a comment posted at 6:13 appears above a comment posted at 6:17?

      @marley - That’s pretty much my point. Aboriginal suicide gets attention when its rate is twice as high, but male suicide doesn’t get attention when its rate is four times as high. Men just don’t matter.

    • andye says:

      09:39am | 15/09/11

      @Erick - “Why is this article about aboriginal suicide not about something else?”

    • gobsmack says:

      09:42am | 15/09/11

      @Erick
      “Why is one group’s higher rate important, while the other is not?”
      Let me explain.
      The article is about suicides in remote aboriginal communities (see the title of the article).
      The fact that the article is confined to that subject does not mean male suicides are “ignored”.  It means that matter is not dealt with in this particular article.
      You cannot deduce from the fact that the article is confined to a discussion about aboriginal suicides that the author is suggesting that “one group’s higher rate is important, while the other is not?”  That is your fallacious suggestion.

    • marley says:

      09:52am | 15/09/11

      @Nick - umm, well, let’s see.  Male suicide rates in general, 4 times higher than female suicide rates. Aboriginal suicide rates 2 times higher than non-aboriginal suicide rates. Ergo, Male aboriginal suicide rates 2 times higher than male non-aboriginal rates and 4 times higher than female non-aboriginal rates.  I dunno, seems to me my year 10 math is holding up okay.

      Here’s an actual set of data:  suicide rates for people in the 34 to 54 age group:

      female non-indigenous 7.1
      female indigenous 9.9
      male non-indigenous 26.1
      male indigenous 46.4

      So, that 8x figure isn’t so far out, is it?

    • Godfrey Zohn says:

      10:26am | 15/09/11

      Indeed Erick, and the article was written by a man.  Are we doing this to ourselves?
      The RUOK day idea has a couple of flaws.  Firstly, people won’t necessarily use such an artificially constructed “day” to make serious enquiries about the health, mental or otherwise, of those around them - might be a bit tacky?
      “Oh, I’m just asking how you are because it’s THAT day of the year again.  I don’t really care either way. Tomorrow I will wear a white ribbon for somethingorother, and the day after I will put a red nose on my car…”

      More importantly, however, in the rare instance where someone is actually going to open up and tell you all his troubles, what are you going to do or say?  If a person is actually suicidal, and actually mentions this in a conversation, do you have the knowledge and skills to help, or are you perhaps going to make the situation worse?

      We have mental health professionals who are equipped to deal with the suicidally depressed, and anyone doing the RUOK thing and finding a potential problem should immediately take steps to refer that person onto a professional.  We also have Beyond Blue and associated other organisations who may or may not like to add their opinions here.
      I’m sure the intentions are good, provided they don’t turn us all into amateur psychologists… Dealing with suicidal people is not the domain of amateurs.

    • AFR says:

      10:28am | 15/09/11

      Erick, please…. give it a rest will you? The high male suicide rates ARE reported heavily. This article is about indigenous and remote Australians.

    • john says:

      10:46am | 15/09/11

      Erik, more importantly why… regardless of gender, age, creed.
      My belief is hopelessness on many levels,  as individuals and as a collective society.  Emeritus Professor Bob Goldney,says “The most honest answer is we really don’t know [why they’re committing suicide]”

      Imagine yourself actually really being there in their shoes. The answer is as plain as day.

      Imagine being that farmer that takes his life after year after year of drought and difficult economic times and failure of crop after crop.

      Imagine being an indigenous person in the top end living their life there, where illegal immigrants are better looked after in detention centres than that our own citizens.

      Imagine being that person in any family that has failed personally in life with knock after knock career, financially, and in their personal life.

      Imagine being that gay, possibly an indigenious teenager at school that has been outed and constantly bullied or belittled, knowing there will never be true equality in your lifetime etc etc to the point where they just end their own life, possibly in bob katters electorate given his outbursts.

      Imagine your that person who worked for ansett,hih,storm,onetel,blue scopesteel, and any other firm for most of your life where the executives make squillions and your arse is kicked out the door and you never recover.

      Imagine being just one of those many homeless and destitute people in your capital city cbd & inner areas and you can feel the hopelessness.

      Generally, IMHO Australian society has changed alot over the decades has become apathetic, cruel, selfish, & destructively competitive,& more violent. Financially we have become corrupt, greedy, ruthless & disgusting on many levels.

    • KJ Dines says:

      11:34am | 15/09/11

      While I see your point Erick, as a person who works in the suicide awareness and education area in the Pilabara region of WA in particular with those who are in the building, mining and construction areas of employment where employees are at approx 75% more at risk of suicide then the general public I believe that any conversation about suicide regaradless of the demographics is the start of raising awareness of this silent empidemic and also the start of reducing the stigma attached to suicidal ideation and also mental health wellbeing.
      After reading this article I dont believe the author is indicating that indigenous suicide is more or less important than suicide of non indigenous persons.

    • Adam Diver says:

      11:57am | 15/09/11

      I’d imagine the rate of suicide in aboriginal communities is related to the rate of child abuse, sexual abuse, alcoholism and lack of any ambition or opportunity.

      But its not these subsidised hell holes that are the problem its the lack of “services”. Quite frankly suicide is a community issue not a governmental one, whilst mental health funding probably could use some help, you can’t expect the government to do the job of family and friends.

    • Anne71 says:

      12:08pm | 15/09/11

      Erick, I don’t know where you’ve been hiding, but I regularly see articles in newspapers and magazines about the high suicide rate among Australian men.  And each and every one appeals to men to seek help if they find themselves in a state of mind where suicide seems to be the only option. 
      But I expect you won’t believe me, because you have firmly convinced yourself that the entire world is in a conspiracy against the white male.

    • EP says:

      12:08pm | 15/09/11

      @Erick - is the rate higher in men than women because men tend not to open up about feelings etc with other men whereas with us women that’s all we do? as a lot of the rate is higher in rural areas where there is no real support and your friends are really the only lifeline there is to discuss things with, why are men not doing that? is it they have been raised with the expectation that men need to just suck it up and be a ‘man’? why are men not seeking help, is it because they have trouble admitting when they have a problem but women have no problem telling all and sundry what their problems are to get it off their chests? if this is the case who’s fault is that?

    • marley says:

      12:15pm | 15/09/11

      @John - if your views were correct, surely suicide rates would be going up in Australian society as a whole?  But they’re not.  They’re dropping.  Except among younger aborigines.

    • Erick says:

      12:45pm | 15/09/11

      The gender breakdown of suicide rates may be well publicised, but if so, it’s through media I don’t access on a regular basis.

      Here on The Punch, we’ve had numerous articles about suicide over the two-and-a-bit years of publication. I don’t recall a single one of those articles even mentioning the very obvious difference between male and female suicide rates.

      It’s just one of those things that seems to be studiously ignored by the writers here. If we’re going to look at specific groups of people who are more likely to commit suicide, why is the single biggest group overlooked so consistently?

    • Matt says:

      12:56pm | 15/09/11

      In 1997, suicide accounted for 29.2 % of all male deaths in Australia (Lynskey, Dengenhardt & Hall, 2000). Many of these men were likely to have been gay, bisexual and sexually abused men living in rural areas (Howard & Nicholas, 1998) which have higher rates of youth suicide than cities (Cantor & Neulinger, 2000).

      Indigenous, homosexuals and men living in rural areas made up most of the men in the suicide rate, I don’t see you championing any of them Erick - nice to know you’re a champion of white, heterosexual (probably divorced) men only..

    • Tina says:

      12:59pm | 15/09/11

      Why is everyone still feeding Erick the Troll?

    • john says:

      12:59pm | 15/09/11

      @marley this story reports 178 people attempted to take their own lives in Australia every day that’s 64,970 in a year, or 1,299,400 in the next twenty years about the population of all of adelaide. That to me sounds like a lot of miserable people that have given up.

      The number of people that are successful in killing themselves is about the same as the road toll, about 40,000 in the next twenty years.

      Suicide rates historically appear cyclical. And we only have what’s reported. At a guestimate I think its about double for attempted suicides and actual with what appear as accidents etc probably 10-20% more.

      Not taking into account self inflicted harm habits with known killers such as prescription drugs,alcohol and smoking, over eating etc knowingly that it kills oneself eventually in a premature time-line. That’s another issue, where I believe society’s real measure of mental health lies. I’m guessing that would be somewhere around 10-15 million of us

      Human carnage, and for a tiny insight as to why, read my earlier post.

    • Dave says:

      01:02pm | 15/09/11

      Note to all People who write articles in The Punch: Henceforth and at all times in future, to keep young Erick happy, you must add some paragraphs comparing whatever you happen to be writing about to th plight of white men. Otherwise Erick will badger you with claims of bias, intolerance, political correctness, and what have you. He may even lodge a claim with the Equal Opportunity Tribunal based on the fact that you have forgotten to refer to the plight of white men. So, for example, henceforth, any talk of breast cancer needs to be balanced by including detailed figures for male breast cancers. Talking babies or giving birth? Well, how does that impact on the male involved? Provide details or Erick will be upset. Kitchens, female sanitary items, etc… must all be addressed from the white male point of view - or else Erick will be deeply deeply uncomfortable and will feel the need to post up straight away and have a whinge; which is difficult for him because he is obviously out there doing all those white male things, like earning a living to look after his stay at home wife and the kiddies, and riding his Malborough horse around the outback. He’s a busy guy, but dont forget: Erick is a white male (although perhaps not a very good example of one), and its all about him and the rest of white maledom.

      disclaimer: I am a white male. Im just not a white male obsessed idiot like some of the other white males who post around here.

    • Kika says:

      01:05pm | 15/09/11

      How about Erick you look at apples with apples, and oranges with oranges before trying to compare both. What’s the rate between Indigenous MEN and non Indigenous MEN.

    • marley says:

      01:31pm | 15/09/11

      @John - I read your earlier post.  But one would have thought suicide rates would have been very high over the last couple of years - drought, GFC, etc etc - yet they’re not.  I don’t doubt that some of the things you’ve mentioned are factors, but I’m not convinced they explain everything.

    • Robert Smissen of rural SA says:

      01:18pm | 16/09/11

      A bit of trivia that you missed Eric, Aboriginal youth have a slightly LOWER mortality rate in Goal.

    • Anon says:

      06:17am | 15/09/11

      I was planning to do it at one stage, and nearly did one night. It was about money. Everything is ok now, I’m so glad I didn’t go through with it.

    • Someone else who's been there too. says:

      07:59am | 15/09/11

      I’m glad you didn’t too, Anon. There’s always a way out.

    • Anne71 says:

      12:49pm | 15/09/11

      Anon, I am so glad you didn’t go through with it, and your family and friends are too.  ((((hugs)))

    • Kika says:

      01:06pm | 15/09/11

      Good on you Anon. My Dad tried to a few times because of money as well. Until he started talking. Talking and letting it out is always better than keeping it in.

    • gonzo says:

      01:21pm | 15/09/11

      good on ya guys. Glad to see you around.

    • acotrel says:

      07:17am | 15/09/11

      It’s all in the mind.  The glass can be half full or half empty.  I believe that depression is widespread, and it is not helped by the media.  I don’t believe that radio stations should play elevator music, but they should take some responsibility for their agro and maudlin crap.  When I visit Melbourne, I always have my own MP3s playing in the car.  There is nothing worse than shuffling through the traffic listening to some moron rabbitting on about inconsequential garbage.  It’s no wonder that the average punters who drive to work every day, try to top themselves !  I also suggest we should get rid of commercial TV stations - they are a disgrace !  Who wants to watch three minute segments of movies followed alternately with ten ads ? - they can stick it where the sun don’t shine !  The invention of the century award should go to the guy who invented the MUTE button on the remote control !

    • Fiddler says:

      08:58am | 15/09/11

      did you really equate suicide rate with too many ads on tv? Wow, although I am impressed you didn’t blame it on Tony Abbott for a change.

    • B says:

      09:04am | 15/09/11

      @acotrel

      let me get this straight.  Your blaming commercials and “some moron rabbitting on about inconsequential garbage” on the radio for the high suicide rates?

      Your more insane than I thought.

    • Knemon says:

      09:24am | 15/09/11

      R U OK acotrel?

    • andye says:

      09:41am | 15/09/11

      @acrotel - So… suicide is caused by depressing music and too many tv ads? riiiight.

    • healthy mind, healthy life says:

      09:49am | 15/09/11

      I really like this comment acotrel. I agree - it’s a case of garbage in, garbage out. I stopped watching television a year ago and it was the best decision I have ever made in my life. What you take in you will subconsciously become, and by the time you’ve changed, you won’t even realise it was happening all along..

    • Coop says:

      05:00pm | 15/09/11

      So… Tv and radio are worse in the NT?

    • Fiddler says:

      07:21am | 15/09/11

      Yes this is a national shame the level of health services in remote aboriginal communities. They provide so much to our way of life and to our country. We should have a full hospital at every single one of these communities. And movies. And a roller disco.
      Or they could move.
      And good call by Erick, why did this become an aboriginal issue?

    • ronny jonny says:

      07:22am | 15/09/11

      I think sadly, it will always be with us, part of the human condition. We can try but I think some people are suffering so badly that it is truly the only answer for them. Some people who are wavering on the edge can be saved by a friendly ear I think but some are in a very bad place and nothing can help. The majority of suicides I have personal knowledge of came as a complete surprise to those closest to them. Very sad.

    • Gregg says:

      07:38am | 15/09/11

      No doubt there are many different triggers to suicides and though generational and more effort is likely needed as Daniel says, it is going to be the triggers that might best be addressed so people, children included do not consider that life is not worth pursuing.

      Whilst with indigenous children, substance abuse is an issue, perhaps there does need to be a closer look at how the indigenous peoples live in remote areas, how they have adapted or not to other ways, how are children treated as part of a family unit and what they can see in those older as a hope for the future.
      Meaningful employment is a great driver in developed societies and whereas it is easy enough for very skilled older employers to find a new place in the workplace on having been displaced, where employment has not existed much at all, developing it is a huge issue.

      We currently have people in not just industry facing bleak prospects as even more and more administrative and call centre work is sent abroad to cheap labour countries.
      We have also seen people on the land committing suicide when faced with very desperate situations and the continual march to so called level playing field conditions is a march to more employment loss in many areas.

      R.U.O.K. should be applied to the country as a whole and it seems farcical that we have politicians talking up this on one hand when there is also much government wastage and very poor decisions being made re various taxes and other control measures as with the cattle trade on the other hand.
      Along with that, there certainly needs to be something very strongly done to prevent the flood of so called asylum seekers further burdening this country and adding to cost of living stresses.

      The environment and tourism work for indigenous people will likely do very little when the country as a whole is not so OK and nor is the indigenous peoples life styles.
      The intervention was seen as political ploy but if one sector of a society is less able to help itself and we ask what can we do, perhaps even stronger intervention is needed, co-operation by the state governments needed for better results.

    • Gregg says:

      07:51am | 15/09/11

      Just replying to my own post as with
      ” whereas it is easy enough for very skilled older employers to find a new place in the workplace on having been displaced “

      should have been ” whereas it is not so easy enough for even very….............. “
      Have to have my coffee first! next time.

    • Sarah says:

      09:02am | 15/09/11

      My Dad committed suicide in 2009. I wouldn’t wish the pain, shock, grief and depression that I and my sister went through after his death - on my worst enemy.

      This R U OK DAY might be fairly ineffectual in the grand scheme of things - because if someone has made up their mind to die, a quick word of compassion won’t save them - but highlighting that all you have to do is sit up and take notice of those around you and give them a kind word from time to time is a wonderful thing - and it may indeed help those who have begun to have suicidal thoughts, or at the least are chronically depressed and on a slippery slope towards suicide.

      Perhaps the aboriginal rate of suicide that is baffling the experts could be tied down to (at least in part) to a sense of hopelessness? If they feel there is nothing better than what is in front of them and that they cannot see a way to escape repeating the life of those around them, that may be a pretty powerful indicator?

    • live simpler lives says:

      09:53am | 15/09/11

      good comment Sarah.. without hope, people will simply give up.
      I’m sorry about your father, that must have been very painful.

    • Huey says:

      07:10am | 16/09/11

      @ Sarah, your wrong. A quick word of compassion, a knock on the door from anyone even a phone call can break (if only temporarily) the descent into the disconnection from sanity that means suicide is about stopping IT..not dying.

    • AJ says:

      09:43am | 16/09/11

      To Huey: Sorry, I wish it was that simple, some people that are suicidal in nature cant be stopped no matter what is said to them or how they are treated. Speakiing for harsh personal experience, you can bust a gut getting people to see there is hope, but not to someone drug or alcohol addled, close minded and stubborn, fortunately some attempts are mere cries for attention. The real cases are sometimes saved by the medical system but more often stimied from activity in the outer world and just placed in confinement. Not really a hopeful option and certainly far from a friendly ear.

    • Stef says:

      09:05am | 15/09/11

      R U OK day is more about raising awareness among people that they shouldn’t be afraid to ask this question at any time - and that people shouldn’t be afraid to answer ‘no actually, I’m not’.
      Suicide is ... there are no words to describe the impact is has on your life, and it is even harder to describe to someone why you feel you are so isolated and alone that you feel you have no other choice.
      Daniel - I think you should have focussed your article more on the widespread problem, rather than just one group.  Yes it is extremely terrible lots of Indigenous kids have this issue, but I think every gender, race and group in Australia has been affected by suicide, and by focussing more on Indigenous kids - you make it seem like white kids are not as important?

    • marley says:

      09:55am | 15/09/11

      I just think he’s pointing out the obvious truth that indigenous kids are more likely to experience suicide by a family member, or commit suicide themselves, than non-indigenous kids.  They’re more vulnerable.

    • Ricky says:

      09:40am | 15/09/11

      Who cares about the Aboriginals? I certainly do not because they’re just a bunch of wankers who complain about having no money while smoking and have a beer at the same time. Then on closer inspection you notice they’re fat shits and the surrounding area for where aboriginals are located is a pigsty.

    • CountryBoy says:

      10:59am | 15/09/11

      An honest man.

    • Fiddler says:

      11:10am | 15/09/11

      plus 1

    • mick says:

      12:06pm | 15/09/11

      Racist wanker

    • kyzz says:

      12:18pm | 15/09/11

      Please don’t feed the troll

    • AFR says:

      12:50pm | 15/09/11

      Ricky, are you one of those people who start sentences with “I’m not racist, but…”?

    • fml says:

      12:51pm | 15/09/11

      Comb your beard, i tire of your whinging.

    • Wynston Cruso says:

      02:42pm | 15/09/11

      Could’ve been put better so that the lefties didn’t have to shed a tear reading it but this is an honest and accurate comment. Simply comes down to taking responsibility for your own actions and decisions, and stop pissing away the handouts you recieve on booze and ciggies while at the same time complaining about not being able to afford food. If western influence is such a burden on these communities then maybe we should just take it away and let them live off the land which they so sustainably did in the past. Sarcasm intended for that last part obviously, they were shitting in their own beds long before we got here.

    • Amwayman says:

      05:37pm | 16/09/11

      Nice one you lefty socialist!

    • Mayonnaise says:

      09:40am | 15/09/11

      I’ve been there, and I’m sure I’ll be there again. What a lovely thought with which to begin the day.

    • Al says:

      09:41am | 15/09/11

      Are the figures quoted really that accurate?

      How many additional deaths are masked in other statistics and not correctly allocated?

      Is it unrealistic to think or is it coincidental that the same demographic that is most likely to commit suicide is also the same demographic that has the highest fatality rate on our roads?

      How many single vehicle “accident” fatalities are explained away as fatigue or caused by excessive speed when in reality they were planned acts?

      How many heavy truck drivers or train drivers have seen motorists consciously drive at or in front of them?

      I’m sure the Ambo’s and the Police know the signs.

      What is the real road toll and what is the real suicide rate?

      Can society deal with the truth?

    • Fiddler says:

      11:08am | 15/09/11

      @Al, I remember seeing a study (I don’t have a link and don’t recall the exact stats) which touched exactly on that. It found that in almost all cases where a young male died from a single vehicle accident and they were on their own there had been a significant change for the worse in their life in the last two weeks (relationship breakup, lost job, excessive debts etc). They were counted on the road toll though, not as a suicide unless there was a note or something tangible.

    • Daniel Piotrowski

      Daniel Piotrowski says:

      11:16am | 15/09/11

      We were talking about this in the office yesterday. I’d love to know more, if there’s any ambos or coppers out there send us an email.

    • KJDines says:

      11:58am | 15/09/11

      Suicide can only be declared by the coroner in each particular state.  Often death is not recorded as “suicide” for many various reasons including, family requests (due to shame), cultural or religion beliefs.  It is believed that there is a variance of approx 25% of unreported suicides.
      Unfortunatley it is often hard to get accurate suicide statistics as there is a difference in the way each state records “death by suicide”. 

      @Als comment - I think the time has come that society has to deal with the reality of suicide as part of our community and families, it is only through awareness & understanding from community and individuals can we work together as one to provide an environment for those with suicidial ideations a place where they can talk about what is happening for them
      You dont need to be a speicialist to help someone - one of our programs we promote is educating “mates” to help mates, ask the question, listen and know who to go to to get help for your mate or yourself.
      Its all about connection - we all need connections

    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      02:51pm | 15/09/11

      There was a case like that last year at Diggers Rest where a young man parked his car in such a position that the train from Swan Hill, doing 130Kmh, squashed his car against the platform. 
       
      I felt very sorry for everyone involved, but particularly for the train driver.

    • Fiddler says:

      02:55pm | 15/09/11

      @KJ - not true. A coroner will not change his finding to accomodate how the family feels about it. A coronial investigation is an inquest, a search for the truth.
      It is determined on the evidence available and the requisite standard is the balance of probabilities. The only way the family has any influence over the findings is if they are aware of something they don’t declare.

    • Kate says:

      03:24pm | 15/09/11

      Al, this is what happened to my cousin. His death was officially stated as the result of a car accident, but it was a single vehicle accident while he was drunk and on drugs. He drove into a tree deliberately to end his own life after close to 20 years suffering depression. Although it wasn’t stated as such, everyone close to him was well aware it was suicide.

    • Lloyd says:

      04:49pm | 15/09/11

      Yes I can’t believe seven people kill themselves each day.

    • Survivor says:

      11:55am | 16/09/11

      If the road accidents are easily identified as suicides, and not accidents, they are accounted for under the ‘other’ section of methods of suicide in the statistics.  This also includes drowning, jumping from high places etc. 

      Kate, I feel for your family but you won’t know if it was suicide or not.. I almost died from a dare-gone-wrong while drunk and high and everyone ‘assumed’ it was a suicide attempt.  The hospital staff treated me terribly and I have low respect for nurses and ambo’s after the way I was treated, including being punched by an ambo ‘for dragging him out this late’... Of course in your case it may well have been, but sometimes things aren’t always as they seem..

    • Kate says:

      04:57pm | 16/09/11

      @Survivor, that’s true, I think our family just made that assumption due to his life experiences and the fact that we knew he struggled with depression.
      I’m sorry you were treated badly by doctors when you had your accident. I actually did attempt suicide a few years ago and got similar treatment from some of the nurses I encountered.

    • Amber says:

      09:53am | 15/09/11

      Interesting that you should note the Kimberleys; on a tour around those parts a few years ago, the tour director talked about the commonality of suicides among the earliest settlers who gave up after not be able to eke out a living from that terribly harsh environment.

    • ComeOn says:

      10:01am | 15/09/11

      And what is the Federal Government’s latest initiative? Severely cut back Medicare support for people to see psychologists and social workers. Even worse, they’ve cut it back for those most in need.

    • Kate says:

      03:26pm | 15/09/11

      So glad someone called attention to this, ComeOn. It’s completely counterproductive.
      The only thing that prevented me from attempting suicide again a few years ago (after already trying once) was regular sessions with a psychologist. The support that psychologists and psychiatrists give can be essential for mentally ill people with nobody else to talk to.

    • young & indigenous says:

      10:07am | 15/09/11

      I don’t believe that they are trying to say white children are not as important. They are addressing the obvious higher rate of suicide among this people group. More men also take their lives than women. More people in their 60’s and 70’s take their lives than young people (depending where you find the statistics). But they emphasise the Indigenous population because the rate of suicide as a whole is higher than their white counterparts. I think most of Australia do not understand the complex nature of cultural displacement, and the sense of identity loss and crisis that many young indigenous kids have. They don’t know where to fit because people taint them with the same brush as their parents generation - who I agree, were often very bitter towards white Australia. I also agree that there must be a sense of self assistance when wanting to lift your own standard of living as a people group, but the current young generation don’t have much to aspire to when they look at the example of their parents generation. It’s a cycle of poverty both in education and of the mind, they simply don’t know where to start to get out of their current situation. In saying this, you must understand that the previous generation of Aboriginal people had to fight for their rights, quite literally. I am part indigenous Australian, and my grandmother did not receive an official acknowledgment of her birth (a birth certificate) until she was in her 40’s. My father was not issued a birth certificate until he was an older child either. Imagine the impact this has on one’s self esteem and sense of identity, that you are not even acknowledged as “alive” in your own country; the country that you feel so connected to. It is an incredibly complex issue that must continue to be discussed.

    • Brett says:

      02:09pm | 16/09/11

      To follow on from the self esteem thread, I wonder how many of those aboriginal youth who commit suicide have been subjected to child abuse? The rate of child abuse in many communities in the North beggars belief. That, coupled with spousal abuse and other violence must have an impact on the overall suicide rate.

    • Reid Wright says:

      10:30am | 15/09/11

      There are more suicides than road deaths each year in Australia. Yet no one seems to be aware of the epidemic. There is little advertising for prevention and awareness, yet there are anti smoking, speeding,  and drinking government funded programs being shoved down our throats. People choose to drink, people choose to speed, and people choose to smoke and they are aware of the consequences. People kill themselves because they feel they have no choice and generally don’t realise the full extent of the consequences of their actions. Why doesn’t the government step in and do something more substantial, maybe someone should let them know that dead people can’t pay taxes.

    • Troy Flynn says:

      12:36pm | 15/09/11

      I’ve heard it said that gov’t authorities do not like to release information relating to suicides as there is apparently a correlation between news reports on suicide and an increase in attempts.  So statisitically this article will cause an increase in attempts.
      I too have tried in the past, and I actually find this whole “R U OK” day to be really annoying and brings back un-wanted memories. Yeah, I’m OK, but if I was being asked this at work often, I soon wouldn’t be.

    • Mik says:

      10:35am | 15/09/11

      M v F. Males “complete” at a higher rate in most, but not all, parts of the world and cultures, and have historically done so, and females attempt more frequently. Differences in methods used, differences in coping techniques, differences in reaching out and differences in responding and reading the signs. Different reasons in some cases, same in others. This article says men react to humiliation more http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/just-listen/201109/humiliation-kills-the-wound-will-not-heal-men but there are many, many pathways.
      Tatz , in “Aboriginal Suicide is Different”, says Aboriginal suicide is due to historical displacement and deculturation. Others look at the possible high rate of Foetal Alcohol Spectrum Disorder -especially the impulsivity and imitative aspects of this disorder.

    • Cheers says:

      10:52am | 15/09/11

      I don’t think R U OK day is anything more than a day set aside that pollies can point to and say they’re addressing mental health issues. Personally I’d rather see more widespread education of workplaces in how to deal with people who suffer from depression. As someone who was diagnosed last year, the immediate response from my workplace was fantastic, however after the first fortnight I have never been spoken to again about it, in fact my bosses and HR manager now actively avoid me whenever possible. R U OK day went by last week without a trace, despite it being hyped considerably in my organisation and ditto this year. I get the odd reference in my performance reviews to ‘a difficult year last year that we won’t talk about’ and that is it. Somehow that doesn’t make me feel any better! Pollies would be much better served spending time putting in place 1) education plans for workplaces in how to support their employees and 2) looking at subsidising the often life-saving medication for sufferers which currently runs at a minimum of $30 per month. As if we weren’t depressed enough already.

    • Susan says:

      11:18am | 15/09/11

      I think the notion of RUOK Day is great…but…few seem to know how to follow it up. So, on Twitter someone asks…RUOK?..what happens if the other says “No. I’m not!”  Unless each are known to each other, I find the questioner is then stumped. What should they do? Offer a helpline number, or…?

    • kylie says:

      12:27pm | 15/09/11

      Hi Susan,
      Offering a helpline number could be appropriate, message them privately to see if they want to talk more about it. There is a program called Mental Health First Aid http://www.mhfa.com.au that can help with how to talk to people if you have concerns for them, what signs of mental illness to look out for and how to connect the person with help (See the website for courses in your area). Lifeline also runs ASIST (applied suicide intervention skills training), Safetalk and Accidental Counsellor courses to help you with what to do. lifeline

      Lifeline also has an online crisis service, http://www.lifeline.org.au/Find-Help/Online-Services/crisis-chat that can help

    • Dan says:

      11:31am | 15/09/11

      Please Don’t do it.
      Time passes and time changes everything.

      I’ve lost two step dads to suicide and still wonder why.
      As soon as you mention suicide, people try to change the subject.
      It leaves a hollow spot in your soul.

      It is NOT the answer, it will only cause more pain. Think. Talk. Live.
      (People care more than you think)

    • Wobbles says:

      11:58am | 15/09/11

      I suffer severe depression because of the life I’ve had, I had my father sexually abuse me, a mother who neglected me emotionally as well as beating from both. I have survived cancer 4 times and now I am battling with Meniere’s Disease…I suffer vertigo daily, tinnitus ect. If it wasn’t for my husband I may have already committed suicide, when my depression hits he gets me to write so what helps me during my darkest days is writing poetry on how I’m feeling even when I want to end my suffering.

      Here are 2 of my poems, to help others understand what we go through.

      INJUSTICE

      My world is but a lonely prison cell
      Another inmate in life’s dark hole
      Depression buries it’s hate so deep
      Boring it’s way right into my Soul

      There are no visible bars to see
      However, I’m all alone in a crowd
      Even when the sun shines bright
      I look up only to see a dark cloud

      I climb the walls of hopelessness
      Riding desperate waves of despair
      If I were to fall what does it matter
      There is no one left to truly care

      I just hide the pain and carry on
      It is the price life makes me pay
      Why must I face such injustice
      I ask God, but even he won’t say.


      ANGEL OF DEATH

      I’m not half the woman that once I was
      Looking in the mirror, I hate what I see
      Wondering what terrible thing I have done
      To make even God turn his back on me

      No peace of mind is to be found this day
      I laugh and smile so no one will know
      I cry inside to hide my pain
      On the surface I put on quite a show

      Despair and hopelessness have finally won
      I find myself in a state of confusion
      Was there ever a time when I was happy
      Or is that just some wishful illusion

      Nowhere to go with the rest of my life
      As I sit writing a poem for no one to see
      Please listen, God, then be just and kind
      And send your Angel of Death after me.

    • philip says:

      12:06pm | 15/09/11

      my sister kept saying she wanted to walk in front of a truck because her world had come down because of malicisious(sp) gossip that got to families sa I ended up slapping her twice and yelled at her to stop that crap and she had a son to think of, sometimes its a physical action that will stop the shit from hitting the fan.

    • Jay says:

      12:25pm | 15/09/11

      As someone who has unsuccessfully tried to end his life on numerous occasions I must admit I have grudging admiration for the people who were able to accomplish the feat. i do not mean this to sound ghoulish in any way.
      When you wake up every day and cry because you had prayed the night before you would just die in your sleep and it didn’t happen. Where to start.
      Only child, family totally disfunctional, abuse and assault. growing up as a 6 y.o being totally alone for 16 hours per day, just reading and trying to keep yourself amused.Then going to school to get more of the same because you were the fat little one who was an easy target.Every day for 2 years.Beaten and sexually abused by a relative who was 10 years older.Again used to the pain and just bury it real deep in your soul.Become accustomed to pain and no longer react when beaten.Get to teens and start to sprout up and able to look myself and avenge some of the beatings on those who inflicted same.Did it make me feel good? No it made it worse and more guilt sets in. Get to 18 make some close friends but always distant and islolationist until all friends just cut ties. Get married have kids but cannot mix socially, prefer to be alone and safe in my own little world. Family accept it and get on with their lives.I am an alcoholic and throw myself into my work but a day does not pass when I don’t think about doing it.Yes I have been to a psychiatrist, psychologist and all they offer are mind numbing drugs which make me feel insane. Now it is day by day. One day I will have the courage, perhaps when my kids are a bit older. I have never struck my wife or my kids, I do not go looking for fights and I drink by myself to try and ease the pain but some days it just becomes unbearable. I am not ok and will never be and will be one of the stats one day, God willing.

    • Mik says:

      12:45pm | 15/09/11

      Jay,
      You are a good man so you don’t have to punish yourself for the bad people in your life. Take a couple of minutes, then a couple of hours, each day just to be proud of yourself for the good things about you. Hopefully one day you’ll believe it about yourself for the whole day. All the best , mate.

    • Kika says:

      01:12pm | 15/09/11

      Jay I know how you feel. I also had a miserable childhood which was all butter coated and I was constantly made to feel as though there was no problem, when clearly there were plenty. Makes you feel angry and hopeless at the same time. I’ve thought about it LOTS of times and tried psychologists and doctors.  Ending it is not the solution.  I will be moving overseas in a few years just to start a whole life fresh away from those who I love (and hurt me all the same). There’s always a better way to find your happiness! (I know how you feel too having people tell you this when you don’t want to hear it… trust me. It’s going to be ok).

    • Kyra says:

      02:16pm | 15/09/11

      Jay, I’m sorry to hear that you feel there is no way out. What I’m hearing you say is that the abuse and isolation you have endured through your life have left you feeling hopeless (is this right?) and what you describe sounds horrific. It seems that your kids are helping you to stay strong right now. If the black hole starts to close in on you again there are some places you can call lifeline on 13 11 14 or the suicide callback service on 1300 659 467. These places may be able to offer some immediate help.

      I’m told it’s best to get treatment for mental health issues and addiction issues at the same time as one treatment alone will not help. Jay, thanks for sharing this with us. I hope you stay strong

    • Roland says:

      06:59pm | 15/09/11

      Jay, you are clearly a very strong individual for going through all that and hanging in there. You should be proud of yourself mate.

    • bek says:

      12:47pm | 16/09/11

      Jay, i went through lots of different mental health professionals until i found the right one to help me. Don’t give up, keep trying. I was 37 before i finally found a great psychologist (after so many i didn’t like or who i thought were useless) and it changed my life.

    • Luka says:

      01:00pm | 15/09/11

      As a sufferer of depression, I’m not sure about RU OK Day. On the surface, it sounds like a lovely initiative. But I’m going through a rough patch at the moment and to be honest, I’m avoiding social situations moreso this week because I can’t decide whether they’re genuine or just people being charitable because they’re being told to be. That may be me being cynical and horrible, but live with depression long anough and you might understand. I prefer to keep my problems private - I’m too worried about gossip and losing my temp job to sit down and have deep discussions with workmates about my mental state.

      That said, please be aware that not everyone with depression wants to jump off something… that’s not a thing I’ve ever considered and it will never be an option for me.

    • Kika says:

      01:27pm | 15/09/11

      Mental health is just one of those important issues swept under the carpet because there’s jucier things to talk about in the media and parliament, like ethics in journalism (who cares!) and asylum seekers.  We are living crazier and crazier lives its no wonder mental health issues are on the rise. We’re not androids. We need to be happy. A lot of people don’t find happiness in their work yet we’re all made to think that we will all be fulfilled by working longer and harder…. Suicide is a by product of failing to talk about feelings.

      My father is an ex alcoholic and has attempted a few times. On both occasions he received little sympathy or care from my Mum (she busted him saying goodbye to the dog who was sleeping on her bed… telling the dog he’s got the hose connected to the exhaust pipe… I saw it as a desperate cry for help… Mum told him to just go and do it).  On all occasions it was because Dad was having money issues and was too scared to talk about it to anyone.

      I’ve also been diagnosed with severe depression in the past and have thought about standing in front of a train lots of times. I know how it feels to feel useless and spent up and that you can’t keep going.  But I worked my way out. Counselling didn’t work. But changing the things around me that were making me down did. First of all, I cut the ties a bit to my overbearing mother. I made it clear that I wasn’t thrilled about being treated like a 3 year old when I was 26 and married and had my own life… I also travelled and made plans for my future where I could take charge of my destiny.  At the moment I feel ok, but from time to time it sneaks back up a bit to remind me that it would be better if I was never born (I agree with that) but I’m too young to die and need to do some things before that happens… 99 sounds like a good age to set to achieve all of that.

      *** And we need more funding for mental health, more funding for Indigenous kids to get their minds off the hopelessness and into something positive so they can be proud of who they are and more attention in the media. So much focus on the road toll when more people are topping themselves everyday!~!

    • scumbag says:

      01:56pm | 15/09/11

      If you’re making a sweeping statement about juvenile and adult suicides, and the reasons for them, it’s a far bigger scenario than can adequately be explained here. Yes, death comes more easily for people in remote communities, simply because there is no instant communication, via the cell phone, the POTS, (plain old telephone system),  or the other means, native communication methods, and therefore one needs to consider the realities. I’m personally troubled by the circumstances and the future of the most vulnerable members of our society, and as an aged pensioner, I’d like to direct my couple of dollars to help in the greater scheme of things.

    • Megs says:

      02:14pm | 15/09/11

      Around 7 years ago my brother visited for a haircut. He was quiet, withdrawn and a little defensive. I remember ‘knowing’ that I needed to be kind to him and look after him in regards to his haircut. (He had very big hair) At one point I had the words “Are you okay?” on the tip of my tongue, but was distracted by one of my children and the moment was lost.

      I didn’t realise the significance of this moment in time unitl a month or so later I was woken by my parents telling me he had died from suicide.

      Not asking him that question, R U OK, wouldn’t have changed the outcome, as I believe he would have lied anyway. No one close to him that mattered knew he was suicidal. His choice I believe.
      I only wish I had said it so that he knew I cared and had some awareness of his suffering. That’s alright though, I know that if there is ever a next time I won’t let it pass.

      R U Ok is not about one day, its about every day and to teach us to have the conversation that we think might be needed.

      Suicide is a cause of death, there are plenty of them (causes) and a conversation about it is nothing to be afraid of.

    • Vicki Coghlan says:

      02:31pm | 15/09/11

      My brother took the leap at The Gap! Suicide is a horrible thing. Everyone gets hurt! There should be more organisations like Beyond Blue in the community! Suicide is a selfish act! I am against anyone who does such a horrible act..

    • Soames says:

      03:33pm | 15/09/11

      Vicki, I understand your pain. May I underline your comment thus , in which you describe suicide as a selfish act. I know it’s difficult, but you must understand that the tortured person is unable to distinguish your pain from theirs, in a mental state that defies reason nor purpose. Please do not put your pain above that of the tortured person. Their’s is not a selfish act, rather a means of relief from pain, mental pain. Perhaps past childhood trauma, unable to be revealed at any cost from family relatives, in case of derision. Please, think twice, there’s many reasons for suicide, including preservation of self dignity, and the fear of revealing their identity, in cases of child rape and abuse, of which the victims feel like they are to atone for the crimes of the perpetrator. Pull your socks up, be positive, and maybe you’ll be amongst the first to overcome your grief, to blossom into a beautiful positive Vicki, one who is able to speak to other people, and therefore relieve the pain of others. God bless.

    • the right turn says:

      04:51pm | 15/09/11

      In Australia each day, Seven succeed with suicide out of 178 who attempt suicide each day.Why the high failure rate? Why the high success rate?
      Australia is dry continent full of dry ambitions, dry balls, dry aspirations, dry weather, dry humour, dry rivers, dry clothes, dry mouths, and dry days.
      Australia is an empty continent full of empty lives, empty jobs, empty ambitions, empty promises, empty minds, empty emotions, empty intellects, empty words, empty people, empty dreams, empty household, empty families, empty schools, empty bottles,empty relationships, empty egos, empty motels, empty houses,  and empty surprises.
      Is suicide Australia’s leading sport?Leading amusement?  Leading Past Time?Leading ambition and aspiration? Whats wrong with Australia? Is it just a crap place to live and die?

    • Aussie Wazza says:

      04:56pm | 15/09/11

      I can’t work out why the suicide rate is so low.

      I get into the C.B.D. about once a month and watch the ants rushing to and fro on the way to their very ‘own’ desk every day; five days a week. forty eight weeks a year.

      ‘Was lucky this morning, caught the 6:23 bus and got a seat. The 6:31 is alway full. Wonder where Harry is. He always sits on the back seat on the 6:23. Lunch today, something special; Slice of last nights quishe. Only taking 45 minutes lunch these days. that way I can catch the 5:07 home. Be home in time for Home and away at 7:00 if I hurry up the hill. Mr. Twiddle said company very pleased with my work. Can see me moving up to the 12th floor in a few years. Will push as much work as I can through tonight after dinner and try to get down to the caravan this weekend to get it ready for the hols. wonder who will take Smiths spot now Charlie has died? Little people, little minds.  God bless them.

    • Worker says:

      12:06pm | 16/09/11

      Yeah, it’s called living… Most people have to work for a living and choose to be an active part of society.

      You may think you’re lucky living in some backwater shithole and marrying your sister as you keep bleating on about, but obviously everyone’s different…

    • Frankie says:

      09:00pm | 15/09/11

      The article started off good then fell away drastically when the fiddle started playing. Im scottish by birth, I despised the English for years for stealing my land and the brutal history that went with it. I survived alcoholism by the skin of my teeth,unfortunetly many of my peers back in the old country did not. Today I have no inclination to blame the english or the dismantling of my ancestral culture for my past mental problems and near suicide. This article mat be SMH materiel but its not all of us that are conned by the victim industry…....!!!!!

    • Lisette says:

      11:04pm | 15/09/11

      My brother killed himself over 20 years ago. They picked up little pieces of him from the train tracks. His family have been picking up little pieces of ourselves ever since. I don’t think he was selfish, I think he was helpless, hopeless, lost and scared. I think of him every day , briefly , without mad grief but more a sad lament, just wishing him well and remembering my closest brother.

    • Libby Mitchell says:

      11:04pm | 15/09/11

      When I worked in Aboriginal remote communities. I saw two cases of ‘suicide’ that were in fact, according to family members, murder. Both men had apparently used knives…one supposedly stabbed himself in the stomach, one slashed his own throat. Work it out. I could not believe it when I read the coroner’s reports.

    • Reformed Lawyer says:

      03:49pm | 16/09/11

      In response to someone’s comment above, in the olden days there used to be a legal presumption that people had not committed suicide.  That was the starting point.  Evidence had to be admitted to the contrary to swing the presumption the other way. That was the result of suicide being a criminal act in years gone by, and also the financial consequences for those left behind, in that suicide used to void insurance policies.  The situation has changed now but I expect the presumption remains in place.

      I like the idea of R U OK Day.  Sometimes i ask people the question.  Not on the day, there is a quality of naffness to it.  I’d kind of like it if people asked me occasionally.  And glad that they don’t.  I don’t like the idea of forcing that degree of intimacy on people, telling people that I might need help imposes some kind of obligation on them.  Not warranted in my case, just an old melancholic with no self-harm in him.

    • NESLIHAN KUROSAWA says:

      11:32pm | 16/09/11

      Hi Daniel,

      Could it be that the indigenous community are living in very remote areas of Australia?? Then again, they have been living in those areas for centuries, right?  Is it more about the fact that if it is our sights, it is out of our minds also!!  Living on the out skirts of a society, not being productive, self reliant people that Aborigines used to be, may even be a part of the problem.

      We seem to be blaming all our problems on Mental Health & its short comings!!  When we also consider the suicide rates among the Aboriginal communities, we also notice the ages of death rates from suicides are getting younger & younger.  We all need to focus more on education, opportunities, health life style options, before we can even talk about how to save lives.  Best regards to your editors.

    • rizal says:

      12:23pm | 08/02/12

      @ Libéral : gbeoalemlnt OK sur votre premier point, et je serais même plus sévère encore. Les chiffres sur les suicides enregistrés à France Telecom – dont je ne minimise rien du drame, qu’on se le dise et la question n’est pas là pour l’instant – ne sont pas des statistiques (bis repetita gnagnagna).Les utiliser comme tels sans même les interroger – personne n’a l’air de savoir d’où ils viennent ni quel en est le détail, mais tout le monde s’en sert ! – n’est pas rigoureux autant qu’intellectuellement dangereux.  C’est une porte ouverte au biais idéologique qui comme d’habitude n’apporte rien de pertinent au débat, si ce n’est des polémiques qui le polluent voire en occultent l’essentiel.A mon sens, ces 24 suicides évoqués ne doivent servir qu’à une seule chose : approfondir le sujet, mettre de la chair autour de l’os. Rien d’autre ne peut en être tiré tout en restant intellectuellement honnête (Le Nonce dixi).Sur votre second point, je serais plus réservé. A mon sens, on ne peut rien faire de ces chiffres, donc limite ce point ne se pose pas. Et quand bien même ce chiffre de 24 serait clairement fondé, je ne suis pas sûr que le traitement que vous appliquez aux statistiques nationales – qui par ailleurs sont très imparfaites – soit correct, ni qu’elles soient comparables en tant que telles au « microcosme » FT. En fait, il faudrait pour commencer un historique des statistiques (des vraies stats) sur FT, beaucoup l’ont indiqué ici. Et il n’a pas l’air d’exister.Enfin, encore et surtout, le véritable débat sur cette question ne porte pas sur les chiffres.  Cf. le post 62 (de Guenièvre), notamment. En même temps, sans la sortie de ces chiffres, même très contestables, se serait-il posé ?

 

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They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

A private school girl’s family is sueing her elite, extremely expensive private school for not… Read more

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