Prev
Next

In North Africa they are fighting for freedom

Max Mason

by Max Mason

29 Jan 09:00am

Must Reads

We don’t deserve this huge, exciting scientific project - this is a caption

We don’t deserve this huge, exciting scientific project

41

Mining money talks the loudest in Australian politics - this is a caption

Mining money talks the loudest in Australian politics

60

Please enter your password - this is a caption

Please enter your password

39

Filed under: Egypt, North Africa, Protests, Revolution, Tunisia, Violence, Yemen

56 comments

“Give me Liberty, or give me Death!”

Protests in Egypt's capital, Cairo. Pic: AP

These infamous words of Patrick Henry resonated throughout the Western world and described in a nutshell man’s yearning for freedom.

This is also true in Tunisia, where Mohamed Bouazizi, a 26 year old university graduate who could not find work nor feed his family, sparked ‘The Jasmine Revolution’ by setting himself alight in protest to the now former President Zine el-Abidine Ben Ali’s regime. This protest sparked action in Egypt, which is now facing its largest uprising in three decades. There are reports of dozens of deaths.

This act has now been mimicked to spur revolution across North Africa, with eight Algerians in the past fortnight setting themselves on fire and further protestors on the Arab Peninsula in Yemen, all crediting Tunisian protestors as inspiration and waving the Tunisian flag while protesting across universities and city streets.

Unfortunately modern history tends to suggest that this cry will fall on deaf ears. While one leader is gone, another, more maniacal one, takes their place.

While Tunisia may have gotten over the first hurdle, the challenges that lie ahead are endless. Protestors continue to struggle with many members of the former regime still holding positions of power in the countries new government, clearing house is easier said than done when leaders still have the loyalty of the military and police who have killed students in the past month.

Algerian protests have lead to violent suppression with batons and tear gas used to subdue demonstrators. The fact that marches in Algeria are illegal under its state of emergency, which has been enforced since 1992, makes it no easier to form substantial support.

In Yemen the likelihood of revolution is even smaller. The country’s leadership, having held power for the past 32 years, has had no qualms in demolishing any form of dissent and with the backing of US military aid it seems a near impossible task for a civilian uprising.

In Egypt, anti-government protestors brought together through the world of social networking, with sites like Twitter being a prominent site for rallying before thousands took to the streets. But in response Egypt’s government has blocked Twitter and the internet and the police broke up protests with tear gas, water cannons and physical force. The military and the US (of whom Egypt is one of their key allies) still remain behind the current regime, quelling any real chance of change.

Populist democratic movements, while passionate, often fail due to one thing. Money. Simply put, money is power, and money buys military force.

Tunisian, Algerian, Yemenite and Egyptian civilians have been pushed into protest due to the poorest of living conditions, huge numbers of unemployment and the ever-rising cost of living.

Yemen in October 2010 exceeded US$2.25 billion from oil revenue yet nearly half the population live on less than US$2 a day and many do not have access to proper sanitation, while more than 80 million people across Egypt live in the same conditions.

We in Australia could not dream of such dire conditions, so revolt is not surprising. But Yemen’s regime is funded by oil, a formidable foe against democracy.

Parallels can be drawn with Burma, while many people believed the release of pro-democracy leader Aung San Suu Kyi would lead to great changes in the country, the controlling military junta remains firmly in control after signing a US$40 billion deal to supply South Korean company Daewoo with natural gas.

But despite the many huge obstacles that remain in the way, there is hope. The so called ‘martyrs of the revolution’ have sparked inspiration like no other in the history of the region, in a trans-border movement of protest and ultimately sacrifice for what many of us in the Western world take for granted.

Most of these struggling countries also face a vacuum of power; as we are now seeing in Tunisia, many members of the Ben Ali’s regime have now stepped down, but there is no organised opposition force who can fairly, in the eyes of civilians and protestors, oversee a new government or even free elections. If these voids cannot be filled it will not be long until another dictator steps in to fill the hole.

In Tunisia, protestors remain diligent, camping outside the Prime Minister’s office, demanding resignation of any officials from the ousted regime.

In Yemen, income tax has already been slashed in half and the president has ordered control of cost of living prices in response to the riots and in Algeria protesting has risen amongst young people with 15 million of the 36 million strong population, under 30.

Indonesia’s fledgling democracy formed under similar conditions of economic hardship and lack of individual freedoms. With the help of prominent religious groups, students overthrew the brutal Suharto regime during the Asian economic crisis and the military withdrew support for the General.

The power of the human spirit is strong, but only time will tell if ‘The Jasmine Revolution’ will be in vain or one of the greatest leaps forward in North African history.

Most commented

431Australia, you have nothing to fear but fear itself
390There's no one Thomson won't burn to save his skin
336Animal experiments won't cure me from cancer
313Thomson didn't answer the question everyone is asking
266Who murdered the Arts degree?
246A big day for Thomson, who thus far is guilty of nothing...
231South Australia. It's the middle bottom bit.
231Craig Thomson speaks. Meanwhile, in Australia...

56 comments

Show oldest | newest first

    • Gregg says:

      11:13am | 29/01/11

      What we see in North Africa is much the same as a lot of the rest of Africa, large population, limmited opportunities and poverty.
      There’s about 100M people between Algeria, Tunisia and Egypt and throw in Libya and Morocco and you probably have the population going past 150M and that expanded by many Africans from further south migrating north in the hope of a better future.

      Be it the heritage, culture, religion or whatever, if those countries have not developed to be self sufficient, they can easily see what life is like in other countries via the modern media, even if life across the otherside of the Med is not at all too rosy in many countries.
      You can only hold masses of people down without eventually some form of violence being perpetrated and have we forgotten Tiamen Square too easily.

      We are fortunate in Australia that we do seem to be very well off, even perhaps more so in light of what has happebned to many countries in the shadow of the GFC and that shadow could well yet darken.
      Life here may not be quite so rosy if the markets for our resources dry up or in fact the extra taxing sees resources obtained elsewhere.

      Will the fall out in Africa see more and more supposed asylum seekers, those seeking a better life eventually setting off from the eastern shores of Africa!
      So regardless of all the problems of many countries, it makes it far more important that Australia addresses what may be the best approach for Australia.

      Could Nauru and eleswhere for instance be set up as holding and education centres, pass standards for needed trades people and other skills and get considered for skilled immigration the same way that skilled people have to apply.
      It is something that ought to still be run by the UN or at least a concept run in conjunction with the UN and perhaps one they could export to all refugee centres.

      Reply

    • stephen says:

      01:59pm | 29/01/11

      It’s a very important development. I hope some countries, like Saudi Arabia, for instance, are not too keen on lending a helping hand.
      And don’t bother with the Europeans. Spain has suffered its worst unemployment record for 13 years, and another Euro bailout is probably just around the corner.
      So, who does that leave ?

      Reply

    • Populate And Perish says:

      02:55pm | 29/01/11

      Here’s an idea- Don’t breed if you can’t feed. Over population because of religious and cultural pressures is detroying societies and the planet. Religion is just a tool to control crowds.

      Reply

    • bleD says:

      07:26am | 30/01/11

      When you can’t feed, you starve and Nature makes the mothers more fertile. So you breed more to compensate! While I agree with your sentiments, I don’t agree with your logic. The only solution to overpopulation is to educate the females in the society or resort to draconian measures like the Chinese do with their one-child policy.

    • Michelle says:

      03:11pm | 29/01/11

      In 1899 Winston Churchill wrote of North Africa: “there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries”. Today’s journalists, ignorant to the same source of apathy that remains in Africa, are replete with their own peculiar type of fatalism i.e. endlessly celebrating these fleeting greenshoots of democracy, endlessly selling false hope in the region because what was so obvious to Churchill remains unknown to today’s clueless journalists. If today’s journalists really cared about a lasting democratic revolution in North Africa, they’d take off their rose-coloured glasses and read Churchill’s “The River War”.

      Reply

    • Gregg says:

      05:02pm | 29/01/11

      I assume Michelle that the River is the Nile unless he refers to rivers of blood that lead to various tombs, Pyramids being the bloodiest! for numbers of slaves that likely died.

      I was thinking that in 1899 that would have had to nearly be Winston senior but he would have been all of 25 and one wonders what a 25 YO would describe as apathy?
      Maybe it was more people pissed off with Brit and other diggers looting tombs whilst being under their thumb and the trend has continued elsewhere in North Africa with influence of the French, Spanish and Italians.
      Or ,maybe it’s just that even then in such a damm hot dry dusty place they would rather be somewhere else and know there’s not too much chance of that occurring.

      One way or another, modern media, more people, less food and resources generally are going to make for interesting times in many regions of the planet this century and beyond if we get past next year!

    • Baal says:

      05:29pm | 29/01/11

      @Gregg,
      the pyramids were not built by slaves but actually by wage earning workers. Common mistake spread by a greek historian that wrote about a country he never visited.

    • Chris L says:

      07:41pm | 29/01/11

      25 years old meant a little more back then than it does now. Winston would have been considered a man in his own right for a decade by that age and would have held comensurate responsibilities.

    • Michelle says:

      09:18pm | 29/01/11

      Gregg, no need to wonder in this day and age. Just google “there is this fearful fatalistic apathy” and read the whole Churchill quote for yourself. The answer will be ever so obvious.

    • Gregg says:

      07:33am | 30/01/11

      @Michelle,
      When you do read just
      ” How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live. A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property - either as a child, a wife, or a concubine - must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men. Thousands become the brave and loyal soldiers of the Queen: all know how to die but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome.”

      It’s nearly as if Winston could have popped his head up from down under to spruik again the thoughts of many.
      And what a blood thirsty young bloke he was, wanting to be off to war when barely twenty.
      You can kind of see where the ” We’ll fight them on the beaches” came from.

    • mary monica roche says:

      04:42pm | 29/01/11

      ” popularist democratic governments often fall because of only one thing, money.
      Money means power and power means governments “

      In Australia popularist governments like Labor often fall due to money.
      Money means Liberal Party and the Liberal Party gets governments.
      australia is like africa.
      Australia is all desert and jungle with rich dictators and corrupt governments on the loose.
      Only Labor can save us from the voodoo economics,the voodoo magic and the voodoo dolls of the needlekike Liberals,Nationals and Greens.

      Reply

    • ClaireP says:

      05:46pm | 29/01/11

      mary monica, what in heaven’s name are you talking about???

    • Adrian of Adelaide says:

      07:27pm | 29/01/11

      A very common misconception Mary and I’ll assume you’re not deliberately trying to mislead. The truth however is that the ALP union funding base ensures they are rolling in money. Affiliated unions pour cash into ALP coffers on a percentage basis of dues collected from members. The Liberals are a long, long way behind the ALP in terms of how much money they have - for example they nearly ran out of money to contest the last election.

      When you make this common mistake you’re probably thinking of the tired old cliché that the Liberal Party is the ‘party of big business’ and is therefore somehow has access to their profits. Not true.

      The whole concept of the Liberal Party being for ‘big business’ and the ALP for the ‘working man’ is a complete furphy - one the ALP likes to perpetuate, for obvious reasons.

    • James P says:

      07:32pm | 29/01/11

      Well, if ever there was a reason for voting Liberal this comment was it.  Clearly a product of Labor schooling for the last decade or so.  Appalling.

    • Adrian of Adelaide says:

      09:26pm | 29/01/11

      The big fear for Egypt and the stability of the whole region is that Islamic radicals will succeed in exploiting the unrest. The shadowy Muslim Brotherhood, particularly strong in Egypt, is already hovering. Anyone who believes they are not already scheming is naïve indeed.

      I would expect them to stoke the fires as much as possible whilst appearing to remain on the sidelines. They are extremely well-funded and will be ready when the time comes to provide non-government, street-level social services such as clinics, food cooperatives, small loans etc; much the way Hamas and Hezbollah have done in Gaza and Lebanon.

      In societies where the welfare safety net we take for granted is non-existent, this gambit has proven spectacularly successful for Islamists. The appeal to desperately poor Egyptians should be obvious.

      Mubarak is clearly on the back foot and concessions are inevitable – the longstanding ban on the Muslim Brotherhood must surely be in doubt now.

      If elections are called, could we see the Brotherhood fielding candidates? They are unlikely to achieve a majority the first time around, but all they need is a significant bloc to start the process. Witness Hezbollah in Lebanon – not a majority, but they’ve just toppled the government, have their own military wing and are poised to seize power outright.

      We can rest assured countries such as Iran and Syria will be more than happy to fund the destabilisation of any local US ally – and Egypt is the great prize. Wealthy Wahabists from across the region and particularly Saudi Arabia will also be getting out the check books.

      The US must increase its own aid to Egypt and ensure the lions share is spent on transforming the society and improving the lot of the average Egyptian; rather than bolstering the regime and Mubarak’s personal power base.

      In the 60’s and 70’s the US feared the so-called ‘domino effect’ of communism across South East Asia. Today the ‘domino effect’ could unfold in North Africa and across the Middle East. The threat now is not communism, but militant Islam.

    • Blogwynn says:

      11:42pm | 29/01/11

      Yep. Salted cashews are still nuts

    • Gregg says:

      11:57pm | 29/01/11

      @Claire
      I was more thinking about she may have been smoking, drinking or otherwise consuming!

    • Sir Ronald Bradnam says:

      11:37am | 30/01/11

      virgin on the ridicluous Mary, have you been borrowing some pills from a ministers husband?

    • John Tracey says:

      06:43pm | 29/01/11

      Your comment:
      Should Algeria become an islamic republic, a democratic republic or a communist republic?
      One could ask the same question about Australia

      Reply

    • Soames says:

      07:59pm | 29/01/11

      Good piece Max, (Patrick Henry’s words could hardly be described as in a nutshell.)

      It’s oil. US dependancy on foreign oil. Not US oil. Simple, but complicated. Tell me a Middle East conflict, other than a religious one , supported by sanctions, arms supplies, or direct invasion,  that hasn’t been about oil, and that the US has been either covertly or otherwise involved. Going back to post WW2, it was the British, confounded by Col Nasser, who closed the Suez Canal, when Britain post-war was starved and in need of oil, to re-invigorate the British economy, and a plan called the Tripartite Aggression, was unsuccessfully hatched and led by Sir Anthony Eden. The Americans,  keen on diplomacy under the Eisenhower Govt, thought Eden was mad, a loose cannon,  and were unsuccessful in convincing the British of such a foolish venture, but unknown to them, a plot had already been hatched. It is history, and the 6 day war ensued, destroying Egypt’s military. The US at the time, was not reliant of foreign oil supplies. It’s a different story today. The US Govt has, in modern times,  supported the Egyptian Government in many political and tangible military ways, without direct reference to the North African oilfields, the subject of this post. One could relate this situation to motives for the American invasion of Iraq, twice.  One would ponder the influence of the widespread influence of the American Intelligence community, seen here, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Intelligence_Community. It’s overwhelming, or, underwhelming.

      Reply

    • Blogwynn says:

      11:57pm | 29/01/11

      Soames obviously would rather it was the Chinese or North Koreans doing his oil fighting for him. Ah, Wikipedia, the font of all truth on this planet. Mind you, maybe Soames should hook up with the Amish, not get sick but. Western Medicine is probably off limits as well.

    • Greg says:

      11:09pm | 29/01/11

      Why exactly are Patick Henry’s words now infamous rather than famous?

      Is there some reason for this historical revisionism?

      Reply

    • TheRealDave says:

      01:24am | 30/01/11

      1. The region has ALWAYS been oppressing its own people long before the US or oil came along…not that its going to stop the handwringing crowd from blaming the US anyway. You can thank the French for the Central and Western Parts and the Poms for the Eastern Parts. Then you need to give a lot more credit to the Russians that funded, trained and poured billions of dollars of arms into these nations for 40 years…..you might not have noticed but all those armies are carrying eastern bloc weapons and not M4’s, Abrams and F22’s ... but hey, its far easier to just blame the US rather than doing any actual research isn’t it?

      2. While these people bravely risk their lives whilst undefended to struggle for democracy what are we doing? Pissing and moaning like 5 years olds because some of us have to pay anywhere from 50c to $5 a week extra tax to rebuild BILLIONS of dollars worth of infrastructure destroyed across 3 states.

      Strewth!

      Reply

    • kate says:

      08:46am | 30/01/11

      While I agree with your first point, the second is way too simplistic Dave. We are upset about a similar thing, (on a much smaller scale, but it has to start somewhere):  lack of accountability of the government, we are not upset about a small levy, we are uspet because finally people are waking up to the fact that the taxpayers are the government. When Rudd and Gillard spend millions on sucking up to the UN, half baked ideas like fuelwatch, grocerywatch, throw $900 cheques to the crowd like it is paper money, designed to save us from a recession that the resource sector was saving us from anyway, billions on Insulation scheme, cash for clunkers, green loans, BER, and when we don’t get any accountability from those projects, not even a thorough cost/benefit analysis for a $40 billion dollar NBN scheme, you as a taxpayer, as the investor, would be mad not to get angry, absolutely mad, don’t keep insinutating that we are mean spirited for not wanting to pay a small levy to ease misery, that’s a Labour trick, been in the rule book since before you were born.

    • Ryan says:

      08:48am | 30/01/11

      @TheRealDave: people aren’t pissing and moaning about paying $5 a week extra tax for the Queenslanders, this $5 extra a week is because Julia won’t pay because it might affect her budget surplus or her NBN election stunts.. Now if only the people of Australia would learn something from the Egyptians, rise up and turf this low communist turd out of office.

    • The Badger says:

      10:49am | 30/01/11

      ryan

      you obviously missed this part about how your liberal party views a levy.

      “Most people, I suspect, will ultimately conclude that the levy is not a huge impost (it will cost 60 per cent of taxpayers less than $1 a week) and that it is for a good cause - and certainly a better one than several of the levies imposed when Abbott was a member of the Howard government.

      Two of those levies (on sugar and milk) were introduced and a third (to fund the sending of troops to East Timor) was proposed when Peter Costello had the budget in surplus, while the Ansett levy was introduced while the coalition was forecasting a surplus - all of which undercuts Abbott’s and Joe Hockey’s arguments about finding savings to fund unforeseen spending.

      The rest came in when the budget was in deficit and, in Hockey’s words, ‘‘we were desperately trying to get back into surplus’’ - which sounds like a justification for the path Gillard and Wayne Swan have taken.”

      Hypocrite much?
      Lost for words are you?
      It’s OK, so are the rest of your cheer squad.

      http://tinyurl.com/66abv88

    • persephone says:

      11:19am | 30/01/11

      Kate

      it’s not an insinuation.

      Ryan

      $5 a week extra? So you earn something like $101,000 a week, then.

      Most people will pay well below this.

      The majority of households across Australia will pay less for this levy than they did for Howard’s milk levy.

    • Gregg says:

      12:49pm | 30/01/11

      @ Badger,
      Great, glorious and divine burrowing there badge and maybe even the Egyptian goddesses may have been proud of you that you are now concerned about the Nile flooding too is it?
      Ah well, I’ll just give you the same reply as it was on groundhog day for you:
      So Badge, it’s not Tuesdays for you but Groundhog anyday including not never on Sundays is it:
      ” This is much more enjoyable and shows Abbott up for what a miserable bastard he really is.

      http://tinyurl.com/66abv88  ” from yesterday.

      Just because you pop out repeatedly from that burrow with the same stuff don’t mean it is no longer worthless.
      Even the Golden Girl Glamour herself, the pouting Kristina leading NSW Labor is complaining of the flies all over what’s coming out of the Gillard gob.

      All Tony is saying is we could be funding this in the normal structured way of NDRRA if it was not for Gillard/Swan/Wong/Conroy all out on a limb with the NBN and other policies with even more flies on them.

      It’s even a bit like the people smuggling that Krudd & Co., including his deputy of the time and our now PM Timor fanatic brought on us with removing TPVs.
      Australia did have a sound well structured refugee/special humanitarian program that was functioning well in association with UNHCR global efforts but removing the TPVs has been an open invitation for people smugglers to again ply their trade and undermine the whole humanitarian program, even placing considerable stress on other areas of Immigration policy because of the resources needing to be applied to the people smuggling issues.

      Gillard & Co. will be well taking over from Krudd and himself and her in lurching us from one disastrous mismanagement episode to another and that is why people are clamouring for a change.

    • Ryan says:

      02:19pm | 30/01/11

      @persephone: I don’t suppose you read the post I was replying to then, the $5 a week NBN and budget surplus tax was in reference to the first post. Oh well there you go again making rampant assumptions about me, I guess the Labor communist party needs to ensure their glorious purveyours of lies and filth come out in force.

      Well Pers, at least you guys aren’t going to be cutting into any of your budgets for Queensland.. don’t worry, 75% - 90% of Australia get that Gillard and Swann don’t give a stuff about Queensland and the rest of Australia for that matter, lets hope we can get the same kind of revolution to rid us of this scum when people figure out just how bad this government actually is.

    • Ryan says:

      02:21pm | 30/01/11

      @The Badger: your pathetic attempts like the rest of you Labor pollies to try and use a childlike schoolyard justification for using the Queensland floods to rip off ordinary Australians.. “oh they did it so we sure can”, such a pity they weren’t low enough to do it on the back of someone elses suffering from a natural disaster.
      Here it is - no levy is ever justified.. understand?

    • kate says:

      06:04pm | 30/01/11

      Ah Persephone, another child who lives in LA LA Land. This is not about left or right. I earn an average wage working for NSW health, along with my colleagues doing all we can to help medicare, I pay taxes, I obey the law, all I am asking for is a shred of government accountability, you know, like in a democracy, something that the Egyptians are now fighting for. Something without which society cannot function. Do you think you have won? You have already lost when the government can do anything it pleases, no questions asked, no matter where on the political spectrum you lie. Do you want me to keep handing over money with no accountability? Where does it end? It will end in tears my dear, Labour tears.

    • persephone says:

      06:44pm | 30/01/11

      Gregg

      Er, what?

      “Fund this the normal way’? Do you think money just magically appears in the budget on demand?

      Yes, there is a mechanism which kicks in when there’s a disaster. But the money that flows as a result comes from the normal revenues of government. This means that (unless there’s a surplus, and not even always then) it has to be found from somewhere - either by cutting expenditure, borrowing or raising taxes.

      I know Tony Abbott - as evinced by his election campaign promises - has no understanding of this. I’m surprised you are similarly innumerate.

      Good lord, Kate and Ryan, what are you two on today?

      Ryan, investing money in Queensland infrastructure demonstrates that the government does care about the people there. If they didn’t, they wouldn’t.

      And - unlike Howard, who reneged on money promised the Victorian government for works needed after the 2003 fires - raising a levy for the purpose guarantees that the money will get there.

      Kate

      firstly, I’m probably older than you are, so none of this ‘child’ nonsense.

      Yes, you’re right, we do live in a democracy, and we do have accountability. We know exactly what this levy is going to cost, we know how much money it’s going to raise, we know where it’s going to be spent.

      That’s about as transparent as you get.

      Furthermore, because we live in a democracy, the legislation to enable the levy to be raised will go to parliament, where it will be voted on by the people we have elected to represent us.

      So it ticks all the boxes you’re asking for.

      And all of this is totally unlike Egypt, where they haven’t had even a Prime Minister for thirty years.

    • Gregg says:

      08:07pm | 30/01/11

      @Persey,
      Not wishing to take ” All Tony is saying is we could be funding this in the normal…..... ” to every article that pops up on The Punch like the Groundhog relative but there was a whole paragraph and several other more pertinent articles, the para in question:
      ” All Tony is saying is we could be funding this in the normal structured way of NDRRA if it was not for Gillard/Swan/Wong/Conroy all out on a limb with the NBN and other policies with even more flies on them. “
      And you know what the other relevant articles are Persey, so do act that age you talk of.

    • The Badger says:

      09:00pm | 30/01/11

      gregg
      perhaps you missed this
      This levy is
      “a better one than several of the levies imposed when Abbott was a member of the Howard government.

      Two of those levies (on sugar and milk) were introduced and a third (to fund the sending of troops to East Timor) was proposed when Peter Costello had the budget in surplus, while the Ansett levy was introduced while the coalition was forecasting a surplus - all of which undercuts Abbott’s and Joe Hockey’s arguments about finding savings to fund unforeseen spending.

      The rest came in when the budget was in deficit and, in Hockey’s words, ‘‘we were desperately trying to get back into surplus’’ - which sounds like a justification for the path Gillard and Wayne Swan have taken.”

      or are you just ignoring it and ranting on.
      Ignoring it and putting your fingers in year ears singing the mark and timb nah nah nah song doesn’t make it go away.

      Perhaps someone could explain it to you in smaller words you understand?

    • persephone says:

      09:37pm | 30/01/11

      Gregg

      OK, I’m willing to accept that you know how to parrot what Tony is saying, I’m asking you what it means.

      ‘The normal way’ is either to cut spending (Gillard’s doing that), raise revenue (Gillard’s doing that) or borrow money.

      So if Tony thinks Gillard isn’t funding this ‘in the normal way’ I’m assuming he’s advocating more borrowings.

      He couldn’t be so ignorant as to think that cutting the NBN would help. It’s not funded in a way that it could.

    • Gregg says:

      11:24pm | 30/01/11

      @Badger,
      You’re always kind of so easily missing the point, for yes levies can get introduced for all sorts of reasons:
      1. being a previous government had left a significant financial mess as you allude to with the deficit situation.
      2. a one off situation such as Timor where it was something that happened with minimal planning time because of the urgency.
      You now have a government in a mess of their own making and a flood or a bushfire, a cyclone are not what would normally be considered once off in the way Timor was.

      And so your mate Persey
      ” ‘The normal way’ is either to cut spending (Gillard’s doing that), raise revenue (Gillard’s doing that) or borrow money.

      So if Tony thinks Gillard isn’t funding this ‘in the normal way’ I’m assuming he’s advocating more borrowings.

      He couldn’t be so ignorant as to think that cutting the NBN would help. It’s not funded in a way that it could. “
      The normal way in the first place is not to have the countries finances so messed with as has occurred in the past three years so the country can handle major events, significant floods, bushfires and cyclones not being unknown and having a more balanced budget would greatly support the NDRRA being able to be adequately funded by reviewing priorities and yes, I’ve acknowledged Gillard has done that and she herself has also said there is more fat that can be cut.

      In addition to that, the likes of myself and Tony would like to see less borrowings, the NBN you mention being one example,
      Yes, outside the budget it is but still borrowings and the return that may never be known nor eventuate is minimal compared with that which would occur from the borrowings being directed towards in this case the flooding.
      Generally, with the mess created, it is necessary for a major overhaul to occur of the financial fiasco that has been created by this government and as usual after the Labor louts in office there will be varied and hard decisions needed to be made, a return to sound financial management not something that occurs with a wave of a wand.

    • persephone says:

      07:03am | 31/01/11

      Gregg

      given that most economic commentators world wide are in awe at the state of Australia’s finances and point to its economic management as an example to others, the government can scarcely be accused of messing it up.

      There was a little thing called the GFC. Australia is one of the few countries to come out of it without going into recession, and without a legacy of long term unemployment.

      That’s scarcely messing up.

      The previous government ‘managed’ events like this by not paying. In one case I know of, an area affected by bushfires was promised $500,000 to help with recovery. Howard reneged on this, on the basis that the State government had committed more than it said it would, so the money wasn’t needed (the first bit was true, the second wasn’t).

      Easy to manage an economy if you behave like that.

      So ‘the normal way’ for Federal governments in the past has been to offload as much of the expense to the states as they possibly could, which is scarcely responsible governnance.

      I would also point out that Labor is attempting to overhaul the system, but many of their budget measures have been blocked by the Liberals in the Senate and their new tax proposals - which would strengthen the budget - face similar opposition.

      Hard to make the sweeping changes you’re asking for when you have an uncooperative Opposition, which continually demands more spending whilst refusing to countenance corresponding budget cuts.

      Cancelling or curtailing the NBN, btw, is simply not sensible. It would involve the cancelling of contracts (something no government does lightly) and the payouts this would involve would be considerable.

      As for there being ‘fat’ in the budget, there always is. There are always programs which can be delayed or cancelled. But it’s obviously better if you don’t have to, because (in most cases) we’re better off with them than without them.

      And I would have thought major flooding would count as a ‘one off’ and unexpected expenditure.

      Anyway, you admit that the ‘normal way’ won’t work at present. Regardless of what has happened in the past, this means the government must find ways of financing what is happening in the present. Your only solution seems to be to cut the NBN, which, for various reasons, wouldn’t raise nearly the money required and would expose the government to litigation.

      So do you have any other way of solving the present problem, other than saying it shouldn’t exist in the first place?

    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      08:57am | 31/01/11

      Persephone

      ‘‘and we do have accountability. We know exactly what this levy is going to cost, we know how much money it’s going to raise, we know where it’s going to be spent’’ 
       
      NO. We know what the redhead says is going to happen, but you only have to look at the promises that haven’t been kept this far, the incredible rorts and the appalling wastage to realise that what she says, is not what will happen.

      PS. Got any pink batts left down at Malfunction Junction? And how is Grocerywatch, Fuelwatch etc coming along?

    • persephone says:

      10:51am | 31/01/11

      Er, Tony.

      How do we know about all this ‘waste’ and ‘failure’? (Please note inverted commas).

      We know about them because we have a system of government which makes it accountable to the people (unlike that in Egypt).

      People will be easily able to track the money, through questions in Senate estimates and other reports.

      For example, the reason we know that there is still money left in bushfire and Cyclone funds is because of this accountability.

    • Sustainable Pop says:

      08:08am | 30/01/11

      Populate and perish should be the key words in poor nations.  Not that some cultulres and belief systems could ever contenmplate that as the people are so brain washed and unable to think critically. Hmmm. But so are many polticians in the west!  So, what next?

      Reply

    • LC says:

      10:13am | 30/01/11

      If only Australians had the same attitude towards their freedom…

      Reply

    • Elphaba says:

      02:45pm | 30/01/11

      5 weeks unil my booked trip to Egypt takes off.  DFAT has upgraded the warning to “Do not travel.”

      Crap.

      Reply

    • stephen says:

      12:45am | 31/01/11

      Well mate, go to our - your ? - country instead.
      We can supply the camels, the brown and red dirt, and some caves with odd and old writings on them.
      Egypt has pyramids and dysentry.
      Though, they do have their charm, though only as tears and after-thought, (charm is only, this way, endearing, for the Egyptian cultures are dead ones.)
      The Greeks are broke, but only in Europe.

    • Elphaba says:

      08:08am | 31/01/11

      @stephen:

      No.

      Sincerely,
      E.

    • Jon says:

      03:17pm | 30/01/11

      This all could end badly with an Islamic state. Which would be the worse outcome for the World, religious minorities (est. 20 million Christians) and the Muslim majority them selves. I truly hope for a peaceful transition to liberal secular democracy, but the odds are not good. Like Iran, Socialists and secular elements in the country for the right reasons started the revolution. When it became obvious that the revolution would succeed the Islamist stepped in and took it over. The result was the death and imprisonment of many who had started and helps it succeed.

      Reply

    • jack wright says:

      06:58am | 31/01/11

      Tell me please: What will this mass of revolutions do to limit or not the enlarging Muslim hegemony if the world…and particularly in North Africa???

      Reply

    • Fatima says:

      07:41am | 31/01/11

      The uprising in Islamic countries is quite frightening unless the young realise that the Quran is as holey as the Bible.

      Reply

    • James says:

      09:50am | 31/01/11

      The are certainly both very holey

    • Robin says:

      01:19pm | 31/01/11

      When the dust has settled the fires put out and blood washed from the street what will be the end result. One tyrant will be replaced with another and the poor will keep on struggling along. 30 years down the line another burst of rebellion will end the reign of another tyrant but nothing will change.

      Reply

    • A.K.A. says:

      01:45pm | 31/01/11

      LOL @ James

      Reply

    • Grumpy says:

      03:30pm | 31/01/11

      The perfect time for the UN’s to intervene and bring democracy to these countries before another Islamic group takes hold…..but the Australian government is sitting on its hands as usual, while other nations are bringing citizens home. What a disgrace. I hope Australians take note of what others are willing to do to be heard. In this country when we protest a war our leader say we dont represent the majority. The Majority will always be against oppression and war.

      Reply

    • Waz says:

      07:11pm | 31/01/11

      I’m terribly worried we’ll see the usual re-run of fallen dictators in the Middle East - a secular dictoator being replaced with a that dreadful Islamic creed. With it’s disgusting Sharia-influenced, or compliant (depending where you look) law. And all the violence, intolerance, enforced suprpemecy of Islam (i.e: direct and indirect subjugation of all other shools of thought or religion)
      As has happened in Iran, Afghanistan, Iraq…  what a shame. There is little good coming from this I fear. To those who think otherwise, I simply ask you to point to a single specific example.

      Reply

    • Khaled D says:

      07:07am | 01/02/11

      Interesting here how many commentators are against Muslims democratically electing their own leader/s. What right do any of you have to tell us who we can and cannot vote for. So if many of you do not want us Muslims to take part in free and fair elections, the only alternative you leave is violent uprisings and revolutions. Ofcourse, to keep yourselves happy, you then go on and label us as terrorists, while never looking at how your own governments supply the dictators and regimes with military, economic and political support that have terrorised and silenced millions of us for decades.

      Reply

    • The Other Phil says:

      11:28am | 01/02/11

      It’s not that people don’t want you electing your own leaders - there’s no issue with that. The issue that many people take is that if Egyptians are fighting for freedom of choice, they won’t get that if they have some sort of Islamic state set up in place of the fallen government. Sharia Law isn’t any sort of democratic law, and punishments by death are certainly not the most just form of law.

      If Egypt becomes an Islamic state, what happens to the 8 to 10 million Copts that have been targeted in attacks recently? They instantly become second class citizens due to the intolerance towards any other religion, as seems to be taught by Islam (please correct me if this is not the case). If that isn’t the case, and the Copts and Muslims can live side by side and vote for whover they choose, then I can see that as the best outcome.

      So to complete a rebuttal - it isn’t that people don’t want Muslims voting, it’s that we don’t want a banned organisation (the Brotherhood), or some extremist form of Islam (like Wahabism) taking power.

    • Waz says:

      11:22pm | 01/02/11

      Khaled with respect, it is quite misleading for you to attempt to link free votes and democracy to the factually valid concerns of people about Islamic states appearing in the power vacuum. Muslims having a free vote in Islamic countries would be fantastic. Unfortunately it’s very rare, and the second that Sharia takes influence, that’s the end of equality and free speech, so it’s back to yet another form of dictatorship. Point to one country (just one!) that has Sharia law, that you would call free and open democracy for ALL it’s citizens. THAT is why people are afraid of Islamist governments - purely their own appalling track record.
      It is also quite wrong to attempt to blame others for the governments in the Mid East. It’s their country, they live there, you can’t blame others for their own political systems & preferences. They have had billions upon billions in aid given to them - what would you ahve others do, not give any aid? And the countries, bad as they are now, would look like what? It is not anyone elses fault that aid recipients wasted, or corruptly stole, all that aid. In my opinion it is mostly the fault of the citizens of those countries for permitting it.
      I don’t know anyone who does not want those countries to have free and open democracies, with a vote. Including the vast majority of comments here.

    • Nancy says:

      09:01pm | 07/02/12

      aolsmt precisely the same thing as Bill perhaps a year and a half ago in a committee hearing of the Canadian Senate. Since then the Canadian Banker’s association has asked the Bank to restrict mortgage lending and it has done so. Not surprisingly house prices have begun to weaken and are expected to continue to do so next year as a result of the regulatory changes. The suppression of house price bubbles through regulation is not an MMT solution, it is simply common sense, and it works.If regulatory control seems preposterous it is because the banking system is not properly regulated, not that regulation won’t work. Of course inadequate financial regulation is a major problem of the U.S. economy.

      Reply
 
Comment

Facebook Recommendations

Read all about it

Punch live

Up to the minute Twitter chatter

Anthony Sharwood

antsharwood 26 May 12 09:27PM

Dementor doing a good job for sweden #sbseurovision

Anthony Sharwood

antsharwood 26 May 12 09:11PM

Ukraine song pinches chord progression from The Verve's Bittersweet Symphony. Fo real #sbseurovision

Anthony Sharwood

antsharwood 26 May 12 09:00PM

RT @GerardDaffy: @antsharwood all the talk over there is the grannies will win.they entered to get a church built,feelgood story

Anthony Sharwood

antsharwood 26 May 12 08:57PM

These peole insult my grandmothjer, who was born in minsk, belarus #sbseurovision

See all tweets

Recent posts

The latest and greatest

We don’t deserve this huge, exciting scientific project

by Claire Connelly

41

We don’t deserve this huge, exciting scientific project

I’d like to be able to say that sharing the world’s largest radio telescope with South Africa…

Mining money talks the loudest in Australian politics

by Laurie Oakes

60

Mining money talks the loudest in Australian politics

When North Queensland Liberal MP George Christensen got the idea of launching a new political organisation…

Please enter your password

by Lucy Kippist

39

Please enter your password

Help! I’ve succumbed to a crippling modern illness that can strike at any moment. Symptoms include:…

Nosebleed Section

choice ringside rantings

From: They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

Michael S says:

"A teacher at Geelong Grammar had criticised her for using words that were too long, which had left her confused and had made her doubt her ability to write essays. She became ''quite distressed'' when her English marks began to fall." I can sympathise. My scholastic mentors conveyed to me a causal relationship… [read more]

From: Welfare for breeders is a bonus for everyone

Change Up! says:

I have no problem paying my taxes. As a single, childless person on a very decent income, I can afford it and not have my life severely altered. Plus I understand that my taxes paying for things like schools, childcare and infrastructure is ultimately a good thing. A better community is better for me… [read more]

Light weight

Gentle jabs to the ribs

They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

A private school girl’s family is sueing her elite, extremely expensive private school for not… Read more

243 comments

Newsletter

Read all about it

Sign up to the free daily Punch newsletter

Subscribe to The Punch RSS feed