The twin debates currently underway over marriage in Australia have at their core an arrogant and probably homophobic presumption that a miserable heterosexual marriage trumps a spectacularly happy fruity one.

Only a grouch would deny Bert and Ernie the right to legitimise their love.

Those who advocate the sanctity of marriage are unwittingly undermining the institution by arguing, on the one hand, that it should be harder for desperately unhappy couples to end their marriage, while also denying the wishes of couples who would be at their happiest if they were allowed to get married.

As a married person of some years, the whole issue leaves me cold, as marriage is the best example of an intensely private arrangement which is subjected to a raft of presumptuous external rules.

I’ve never really enjoyed wedding ceremonies and have always regarded them as a ritualised public display which couples must endure to satisfy imposed expectations, not just of society but also of family - the very relatives who often give couples the first ding-dong argument of their relationship over something as trifling as seating arrangements, or the fact that a dear friend has to be cut from the reception to make way for Great Aunty Ethel.

The idea that your marriage is the happiest day of your life is also absurd, unless your idea of happiness involves organising something as taxing as the Normandy Landing and as expensive as the Sydney Olympics. And surely the intensity of the day you both realise that you are in love trumps the theatrics of a wedding, the poor flood-sweating groom standing there in some musty tuxedo as his soon-to-be wife arrives, eventually, in a silk-and-chiffon Sposabella rip-off held together with hundreds of hairpins.

All this aside the defenders of marriage - many of whom are religious purists - are steeling themselves for two battles.

The first involves the review of the Family Law Act which will examine, among other things, whether it has become too easy for couples to give up on their marriage.

It’s an issue well worth examining, especially, of course, where children are involved.

And they often are - of the roughly 48,000 marriages which end in divorce every year (on the latest, 2007 figures) about half involve dependent children.

The harrowing nature of divorce, the gradual breakdown of relations in the home, the usually bitter subsequent legal fight, future fights over custody, maintenance, time-sharing of the kids with new partners…it’s a hellish thing to countenance when kids are involved, and an argument can be made that anything which forces parents to have another go at saying their relationship for the sake of the kids is a welcome thing.

But there’s a couple of warnings that should be sounded.

There’s a risk that the most passionate advocates of “holy” matrimony will use this review to stop childless couples from chucking their marriage in because, quite simply, they just think they’ve married the wrong person.

That should be their right in a modern society. It’s ridiculous that, because of some biblical-based view, childless grown-ups should be compelled to maintain a dysfunctional (or even slightly uncomfortable or unhappy) relationship because the law reflects a prehistoric view that divorce is some kind of offence before God.

If you haven’t got kids, walking away from marriage for whatever reason is almost a victimless crime, and should be entirely your own business.

The other danger with the review of the Act is that the marriage purists might end up advocating such arduous obstacles for divorce by parents that we end up with an undesirable, even a dangerous situation whereby dependent children are trapped in a toxic, hate-filled environment, from which divorce would let them escape.

No amount of counselling will save many marriages, with or without kids. And it would be a rotten outcome if the review resulted in a blind adherence to the goodness of marriage, even if the marriage in question is doing continuing damage to children.

Then there’s the gays, as Daffid would put it.

Phil Coorey reported in the SMH today on a new push by the so-called Rainbow Labor grouping within the ALP to have gay marriage - rather than civil unions, regarded by many gay couples as the second-best option - listed for debate at this month’s ALP national conference.

Again, I’d divide this issue into the without-kids and with-kids category.

Labor’s current policy platform states that the party opposes any schemes which “mimic marriage or undermine existing laws that define marriage as being between a man and a woman”.

This is the polite working of Paul Keating’s memorable line at Federal Cabinet that “two poofs and a cocker spaniel” does not a family make.

Why the hell not? If kids aren’t part of the equation, unless you’re so selfish that you want to maintain a hands-off-it’s-all-ours approach to an antique institution, it just seems prejudicial to deny gay couples the happiness and legitimacy they would derive from getting properly hitched.

It also belies a degree of insecurity that the sanctity of the institution would somehow be undermined by opening it up to gays and lesbians, as if you’re own buttoned-down marriage would be weakened by learning that those two friendly guys around the corner with the Rav-4 and the perfectly-sculpted Japanese garden had snuck off to the registry.

The kids issue is more complex, in so far as it involves much more controversial issues over donor parents, surrogacy, IVF - all the stuff that sends many people into a meltdown.

There have been a couple of cases where gay relationships involving children have soured spectacularly, the most dramatic being the Canberra lesbian couple who ended up suing their doctor when their IVF treatment resulted in twins instead of the one child they actually wanted.

I’m not sure if this shocking case actually said anything about their gayness - rather their self-interest in having an almost materialistic regard for a child as being some kind of fashion accessory, a phenomenon which has nothing to do with sexuality.

But for all the complexities and worst-case scenarios, any blanket denial on gay couples ever having children - be it through custody from an earlier, straight relationship which produced children or through some clandestine arrangement as a gay couple which resulted in kids - has at its core a fundamental hypocrisy.

And that is that there’s undoubtedly plenty of gay people out there who are more together, more balanced and more loving than a lot of neglectful or dysfunctional heterosexual parents, and that an arbitrary law based on outdated notions can only serve to entrench unhappiness, on both the gay and straight sides of the marital divide.

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51 comments

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    • MF says:

      03:19pm | 14/07/09

      In the words of the most heterophobic man on tv - “If I’m not f-ing you, it’s none of your f-ing business”.  And I can’t agree more.

      That being said, if the “church” wants to keep marriage holy, then whatever.  That’s their perogative.  But the state should butt out and keep religion out of the debate.  Let gays and lesbians have “civil” marriages.  They’re perfectly happy to take money from the GLBT community in taxes, but then treat them as lesser humans.  It’s disgusting.

    • Patrick says:

      03:41pm | 14/07/09

      Insightful article. To add something to it, why is it ok for child welfare authorities to leave a child with abusive parents in the interest of keeping a family together, even if it means a 2 year old girl is beaten within an inch of her life by her father, but it isn’t ok for 2 caring members of the same sex to adopt children, possibly these children born into abusive families?

      I put it solely down to lingering prejudice, there is no other explanation.

    • RT says:

      03:50pm | 14/07/09

      Whilever we have committed Christians like Howard and now Rudd as our head of government it seems that complete separation of church and state will have to wait a while.

    • Ben Payne says:

      06:06pm | 14/07/09

      WTF is the big deal?  A marraige is nothing but a contract, with a built in escape clause - divorce.

      And studies have shown that children of gay parents are actually better adjusted to society, so using that as an excuse doesn’t work. 

      the intolerant religious bigots already have these rules as part of their idiotic belief systems, but they also want these rules to be imposed on other people (with an IQ above room temprature) as well.

      is it really that hard to understand?

    • Jeff says:

      06:16pm | 14/07/09

      Marriage should be more like a real contract.  the contract could be for a specified period, or until a certain occasion (the youngest child’s 18th birthday) or for life.
      And like a normal commercial contract, if someone breaks it (“oh, I just don’t love you anymore”), they must pay a penalty or buy their way out of the contract.  So one partner can choose to alter the life of the other by suddenly and without consultation ending a marriage, but they pay for the privilege.

    • Steve B says:

      06:40pm | 14/07/09

      The government should have no role in marriage other than registration of unions for legal purposes. As long as the participants are consenting adults then the gender and number of people in a union should be a private matter. I guess it will have to wait until we have a government that doesn’t believe they know what is good for us better than we do.

    • ANDIKA says:

      06:51pm | 14/07/09

      I have no issue with gays but marriage is being between a man and a woman - end of story.

    • Jeremy says:

      07:28pm | 14/07/09

      Marriage is defined in the dictionary as between a man and a woman. Societies of all sorts have discriminated in favour of this to ensure there are enough children born to maintain the society. If the definition of marriage is changed to other sorts of relationship then the concept has no purpose and can be discarded. Marriage was invented and maintained specifically to discriminate in favour of traditional families. If you believe that the majority of our population don’t approve of this discrimination then I suggest you call for a vote to delete the concept of marriage. There is no particular benefit to society to discriminate in favour of homosexual relationships, and if that is what you want to do why have marriage at all?

    • Jason says:

      08:32pm | 14/07/09

      The reason gays want to be married is simply to remove discrimination, People forget that to be able to receive certain benefits you need to have a spouse if your in a relationship and if gays cant marry then there obviously cant be a spouse in the relationship. Sadly I cant see same-sex marriage happening in Australia any time soon as society is too backwards on homosexuality - notice the lack of same-sex relationships on Australian television, compared to the UK, New Zealand and even the USA.

    • Matt from Perth says:

      08:34pm | 14/07/09

      Thanks, David.

    • Bruce says:

      09:25pm | 14/07/09

      No problem if gays want to be together, just call it a “Legal Contract”. Not a Marriage!!

    • Jacqueline Pascarl says:

      09:43pm | 14/07/09

      If any two adult people wish to stand before society and announce themselves as a legally bound, contractually defined couple - married, then all power to them! Relationships are fluid, changing always and evolving. some flounder and others strengthen. If a celebration and a signing of an agreement with promises and well wishing is involved then vive la marriage and bah humbug to religious bigots, narrow minded and jealous people. Children deserve a loving home and a nurturing environment provided by caring adult parents of any gender. As much married myself (I point out ruefully), I say everyone has a right to be as miserable or as happy as humanly possible. Equality for all and pass the confetti. Thanks Dave.

    • Luke says:

      11:38pm | 14/07/09

      As a gay man myself the issue to me comes down to freedom and choice. I should be able to get married if I so chose who gives anyone the right to take that away from us.

    • David says:

      12:21am | 15/07/09

      Seriously… who cares!?

    • Adam Dennis says:

      01:33am | 15/07/09

      I really don’t care what the dictionary defines marriage as - that’s not the final word on the matter. It’s our society, it’s our collective choice to define marriage as we want. I believe David is right in saying that it’s an intensely private arrangement, and I’ll say right here and now that I happen to think it’s a damn good one. Formally committing to my wife made a subtle but important difference to our lives and brought us great happiness. Being of sound mind and generous disposition, I therefore think that everyone should be able to get married and share some joy. This world has enough trouble and sorrow in it, so let’s celebrate life by declaring that anyone who wants to get married can get married. People who want to arbitrarily deny someone else happiness because they’re gay or lesbian, or even a martian for that matter ... is just a sulky ol’ spoilsport.

    • Jeremy Sear says:

      09:31am | 15/07/09

      First vaguely sensible thing by you I’ve read, Penberthy.

    • Chris says:

      09:46am | 15/07/09

      Brilliant piece David P.

    • Frank says:

      10:07am | 15/07/09

      Hey Andika you might want to read what you write before you post it….
      Sounds like you have a pretty big issue with homosexuals. Might wanna get that checked

    • Bill M says:

      10:23am | 15/07/09

      I’m a 47 year old gay male, and have no intention of getting married to another man, nor a woman. I have a partner who pays his way and I pay my own way, whats his stays his and vise verser. If we split there’s no arguments there. Leave marriage, church, divorce and splitting up of the house and belongings to the heterosexuals.

    • Tim says:

      10:46am | 15/07/09

      Sorry Jason,
      with the new government laws, any relationship gay or straight can afford full legal rights to the other partner without marriage. The real issue has nothing to do with discrimination.

    • Lexi says:

      11:04am | 15/07/09

      How does allowing gay marriage hurt anyone else?  So why is it such a problem, if it actually makes some people really happy?  My only recommendation is to elope - the family just gets in the way of a good time.  My husband and I would have if we knew what we were getting ourselves in for!

      As for having children - at least gay couples have to have a discussion, agreement and active involvement/intention in order to have children in their family.  Heterosexuals have “accidents”... Oh yay for teenage pregnangy, so long as you’re hetero…. LMAO at the biggots.

    • Jayne says:

      11:08am | 15/07/09

      In regards to Andika saying ‘marriage is between a man and a woman - end of story’.
      Didn’t people say that once about the world being flat? About jews being evil? About intelligent women being witches in disguise?

      Things change and this should be one of them.

    • Lynda H says:

      11:19am | 15/07/09

      If that is the case, Tim, then why have marriage at all?  The new laws make it obsolete.

      I think ‘marriage’ should be struck from the statutes entirely.  By all means, get “married” if you want to, but it would (and should) be a purely religious - not legal - concept.  If you want your “marriage” to be a legal union, you have to sign the same civil union forms as other couples - gay and straight.

      Win, win, I would have thought: the fundies get to keep marriage all to themselves (no longer besmirched by the scourge of divorce and Teh Queers) and everyone else has TRUE equality under the civil unions law.

    • mike j says:

      11:27am | 15/07/09

      That’s right, Frank. Andika is homophobic because her opinion is different to yours. She was probably just pointing out that marriage is traditionally a religious union between a man and a woman. If I were you, I’d be more concerned about reading what I was writing.

      I’d also like to refute this implicit suggestion that gay couples are somehow happier and more stable than hetero couples. That they are all ‘friendly’ and have nice gardens. What a heap of crap. People are people and as many gay unions will fail as straight.

      Personally, I have no problem with gay marriage, and believe that gays should certainly have the same legal benefits as married hetero couples… where those benefits don’t infringe upon the rights of others. And that’s where IVF and adoption get ruled out. Lingering prejudice? Patrick, what it comes down to is the child’s right to expect the love of both a mother and father. Perhaps your haven’t considered this in your own lingering self-absorbed sense of entitlement.

    • Richard says:

      11:35am | 15/07/09

      Jeremy: Society did not invent marriage to make sure “enough children were born to maintain the society”.  In case you haven’t noticed, it is not necessary for human beings to be married in order to reproduce.  Personally I think people who have children should be married, but that doesn’t mwan I believe that the purpose of marriage is to “make sure enough children are born” - that’s just silly.

      And how is allowing gay marriage “discriminating in favour of homosexual relationships”?

      I think you should just stick to stating your obvious moral/religious views and not try to back them with logic; it’s not working.

    • Jason says:

      01:37pm | 15/07/09

      Sorry Tim,

      Yes the government did remove some discrimination, but not all discrimination.  Also finance companies and insurance, banking and a number of businesses require you to have a spouse (ie be married) to receive benefits if your in a relationship, the list goes on and on.

    • h says:

      02:10pm | 15/07/09

      We’re stuck with these ridiculous problems so long as we have conservative christians in power. There is no separation of church and state in Australia and we suffer for it endlessly. I don’t believe that conservative christians represent the majority - much as they think they do. Most people are more liberal and open than that - while still wanting to lead good lives and be good to others, an increasing number of people have realised that’s got nothing to do with the church (although it can help it’s hardly required).

      So, marriage. Laws need to be changed so that marriage is declared separate from religious extras tacked on to the notion of two people making a public and binding commitment to each other. Krudd made a big step in the right direction by removing some legal inequalities, but had to stop short of changing marriage itself - too loaded. Maybe in a few decades I guess…

    • Leo says:

      02:54pm | 15/07/09

      I’ve never understood why our PM’s/politicians seem to think they need to be christians and church goers as is Rudd. Most people in Australia don’t go to church and aren’t practicing christians. Why we need people who believe in fairy tales (bible) and pray to a supernatural being running our country doesn’t make any sence to me at all!  How many everyday aussies do you know go to church every Sunday?

    • Ian says:

      03:20pm | 15/07/09

      Well said Leo! You don’t have to be a christian or believe in god to be a good moral person!  Have a look around the world all these people in power who have a strong faith are destroying the world before our very eyes. They should keep their religious values and idea’s at home behind closed doors!

    • Thomas says:

      03:39pm | 15/07/09

      Yes these christians who run our country like to have it both ways. In their bible it tells them “man who lay with man shall burn in hell for eternity” loveley stuff RUDD apparently believes in. But homosexuality is legal. Being christian should make them not fit for public office.

    • Tim says:

      04:26pm | 15/07/09

      Sure Thomas,
      does that mean that when homosexuality was illegal, all gays were unfit for public office?
      Just because someone has different beliefs than you doesn’t make them any less fit to be in Government.
      And to those asking why our Prime Minister is usually Christian, have a look at the last census. The Majority of Australians identify with Christian beliefs.

    • Stepheb P says:

      05:01pm | 15/07/09

      When homosexuality was illegal I’m sure anyone who was openly homosexual would not have been aloud in public office,

    • Karin says:

      09:37pm | 15/07/09

      I find it interesting that the term ‘marriage’ is still used to refer only to a legal union - that is, a union sanctioned by a legal document and signatures from witnesses. In this regard Australian society is still so very conservative and backward.

      My husband and I have never had a wedding, we are not in possession of a marriage certificate and we don’t wear rings on our fingers yet he is my husband and I am his wife. We plan to grow old and incontinent together but we don’t feel the need to have our relationship recognised as a legal marriage nor the need to declare our love and commitment for each other in front of an audience.

      I’m with David re wedding ceremonies. I find them utterly cringeworthy and would sooner remove my arm with a germ-infested razor blade than ever cast myself as a bride in one.

      I’ve been with my husband for ten years and living together for five. We have a child and another on the way (alert The Conservatives! children out of wedlock – shock, horror and impending breakdown of society as we know it). We also have two mortgages and have purchased furniture together. Any one of those things by itself indicates a potentially greater commitment than that made by the smiling couple from the social pages that exchanged rings and vows in an intimate beach ceremony at Balmoral last weekend.

      Ours is a society obsessed with weddings and marriage. And so I find myself in the .00001 per cent (my estimate, not based on actual research) of women who don’t want a wedding nor feel the need to announce their marital status to the world via a wedding ring.

      Whilst I don’t feel the need to have my marriage legally acknowledged as such I fully respect the right of everyone else to do so. Why that right should be limited to people of heterosexual persuasion is a mystery to me, and frankly, downright illogical. Even more illogical is why some legally married people feel so incredibly threatened by the thought of a gay couple joining their ranks. What does your relationship have to do with my mine, have to do with the gay couple next door? Get over yourself.

      It’s high time everyone take a massive chill pill when it comes to marriage, and divorce. Let whoever wants to get hitched do so. And if a married couple feels the need to end their marriage I don’t believe increasing the legal impediments to doing so will make a difference to their decision. Let’s give them the benefit of the doubt, assume they operate as adults and have put some serious thought into the decision, children involved or not.

    • Ross Grove says:

      02:46am | 16/07/09

      Our legal system’s first priority should be to the best interests of the child and 90% of the time they are better off being raised by healthy man/woman relationship. It’s the other 10% that’s up for discussion and should be determined on a case-by-case basis rather than the pious assertions of advocates o either side of the fence.

    • Cardinal Pole says:

      04:15am | 16/07/09

      “But for all the complexities and worst-case scenarios, any blanket denial on gay couples ever having children ... has at its core a fundamental hypocrisy.

      “And that is that there’s undoubtedly plenty of gay people out there who are more together, more balanced and more loving than a lot of neglectful or dysfunctional heterosexual parents ...”

      But surely you can see that this is the logical fallacy of the apples-and-oranges comparison, Mr. Penberthy? Same-sex parenting supporters always trot out this tired old argument of something along the lines of ‘if drug-addicted, squalour-dwelling, violent opposite-sex couples can bring up children then why can’t nice, neat, cardigan-wearing suburban sodomites?’ This misses the point that even when an opposite-sex couple and a same-sex couple are equally “together”, “balanced” and “loving” (not that that’s really possible, though) the opposite-sex couple will stil provide superior parenting, because, for one thing, it provides by its very structure the best access to role models from both sexes. (And no-one can deny the importance of role models from both sexes, when even same-sex parents acknowledge it:

      “I think it has to be understood here that we are not anti-men. Trust me, we love them, but just not to marry them. We understand the importance of having a male in the children’s lives. They are not surrounded by a mad bunch of females. There is a beautiful mixture here. A male is very important—we believe that—and that is why we have male role models in the children’s lives.”
      (N.S.W. Parliamentary Inquiry into same-sex adoption, Final Report, p. 65)

      Given that the best access to these role models is the stable, domestic, day-to-day access provided by a married man and woman (rather than the string of remote, transitory ‘aunties’ or ‘uncles’ which a same-sex couple might provide) how can anyone approve of same-sex parenting?

      Speaking of which: Mr. Penberthy, why hasn’t The Daily Telegraph or thepunch.com.au reported on the now-concluded same-sex adoption inquiry? Despite reading the Tele Monday to Saturday and reading thepunch’s daily e-mails I have seen nothing on this affront to children’s rights. Is it not regarded as newsworthy? Perhaps this would be something on which you might wish to comment in greater depth in one of your columns, Mr. Penberthy?

      As for so-called gay marriage: marriage isn’t just any old union, it is a conjugal union, and two persons of the same sex are constitutionally incapable of uniting with each other conjugally, so it is absurd to speak of them marrying each other. And it is the sickening things which same-sex couples do in simulation of (or rather, in parody of) conjugal relations which give rise to “insecurity that the sanctity of the institution would somehow be undermined by opening it up to gays and lesbians”. Buggery (or whatever other unspeakable things gays and lesbians do) ain’t pretty, and any institution associated with it is tarnished thereby.

      Reginaldvs Cantvar
      http://cardinalpole.blogspot.com

    • Louise says:

      12:10am | 17/07/09

      “Those who advocate the sanctity of marriage are unwittingly undermining the institution by arguing, on the one hand, that it should be harder for desperately unhappy couples to end their marriage, while also denying the wishes of couples who would be at their happiest if they were allowed to get married.”

      Sorta depends what you think marriage is for. It’s not primarily about people’s precious feelings.

    • Louise says:

      12:15am | 17/07/09

      But let’s suppose it’s true that “gay marriage” turns out to have a bad effect on traditional marriage (and there is no evidence that it does not) why exactly is it okay to ruin traditional marriage? Why should the supposed happiness of a very tiny number of gays (most gays do not wish to marry) outweigh the happiness of the majority of (heterosexual) married people?

      This is just selfishness and a way to try to force people to approve of gay sex, over and above mere tolerance.

      We tolerate you, so just leave it at that.

    • David says:

      09:12am | 22/07/09

      thanks for your comment Louise.

      Tolerated. I hear you. Mere Tolerance.

      Now, if evidence that gay marriage has a bad effect on ‘traditional marriage’ does not exist it is a bit hard to exhibit it. If you have evidence of the ‘bad effect’ could you let me size up the evidence. It is most hard to judge non existent evidence.

      And ‘Most Gays Do Not Wish To marry’, where did you get that stat from?

      What is removed at the moment is a choice to either marry or to not. (which heterosexuals may take for granted?) I am asking for the same choice, whether I wish to marry my partner or not.

      And thanks for your tolerance. perhaps you could move on to acceptance…........and let me have a look at the not evidence please

    • Brendan of Wollongong NSW says:

      12:01pm | 22/07/09

      Sage words, Penbo. Somewhat of a stunning bolt out of the blue too.

      It was great to see this as a two-page feature in the Daily Tele recently. That’s a far cry from late 2005 when letters were being published from the likes of Syd Mitchell of Erina describing gay marriage as “a disease and unnatural”. If the Daily Tele can take a more civil and reasoned attitude to gays, then there’s hope yet.

      The comment by Louise above is right in a sense: this is about selfishness. The obstructive selfishness of smug arrogant “tolerant” heterosupremacists who seem to religiously believe that society and the law should put them on a pedestal and shower them with priviledge and recognition above all others.

      Fair go, Australia. It is time to legislate for marriage equality.

    • Sophie says:

      04:23pm | 30/07/09

      Thankyou for this, David. If only the ALP rank and file would look at your article before the conference!

    • Krammer says:

      12:51am | 31/07/09

      Marriage: a legally accepted relationship between a woman and a man in which they live as husband and wife, or the official ceremony which results in this.
      End of story! Sorry pro same sex supporters, the antis win. Well, for now anyway. How society has normalised same sex relationships and let it come to this, I cannot fathom. Further, how the door was left wide open for an innocent child to be allowed to come into the mix makes me sick. That’s the epitome of selfishness. Do with your own lives as you please, but leave children out of it.
      50% divorce rate that gets bantered around in regards to heterosexual couples is just an indicator of the decay of society. This same sex set up is an even stronger indicator.
      To concrete the point, let’s turn the clock back a little. Not too far, just before recent medicine allowed eggs and sperm to be transferred unnaturally from one body to another. Let’s hit the same sex switch so that’s all of our preference. Hey, there goes the human race. It’s all not so natural, healthy and normal after all. You can’t argue that, that’s just a plain fact. All morality and all other opinions out of it.
      Hopefully, here in Australia, we never take that step of decay.
      Honestly, what’s next!? That I fall in love with my german shepherd and want us walked down the isle and it recognised as marriage or else I’m discriminated against?? Oh, and then I want to be able to bring children into the mix.?? My goodness.
      To think that the government has already gone so far in bending over backwards and changing law to make same sex people feel normal and natural, like everyone else, and now you want the title as well to rub it in the nose of a heterosexual person? What’s next!? Oh, I know, then you will want to intrude into the religious realm and make it that the religion of your choice must wed and bless you or that will be discriminating too.
      Give me a break. For the supposed down trodden, hapless, discriminated, hard done by minority you claim to be, you sure as heck have a very loud voice with some people in very high, powerful, law changing positions. To think that society has come to this to want to make recognised the core unit of society, the family, as man/man or woman/woman and child. Hey, you can’t produce them naturally anyway. And never will be able to. God only gave that creating ability to the man and woman that he created and set up as natural and normal. Even if same sex people get the marriage title one day, you will never have that. Never. Two eggs or two sperm don’t make a baby. Science will never be able to get around that one. The best you will ever be able to settle for is one natural parent to a child. The other, a complete non-contributing stranger, with the option always open to just walk out the door and not feel a thing if things ever get tough.
      Oh, and one day, as it comes with all fostered and adopted children, the child becomes an adult and will seek answers. Then you will have the chance to explain how mummy and mummy or daddy and daddy wanted to mimic the natural order so 50% of you was sourced from some unknown stranger on the other end of the earth, at a fee of course, so mummy and mummy or daddy and daddy could feel normal and good about themselves. Good luck!
      And before loosely throwing around the term bigot, here’s a closing definition: a person who has strong, unreasonable beliefs and who thinks that anyone who does not have the same beliefs is wrong.
      Careful slinging this one around because it can equally apply to the slinger.
      There might be some lee way in being fair and supposedly non-discriminatory in regards to certain pension, super and hospital choices for same sex people but don’t dare to touch the simplest unit of society which is the family of man, woman, child, through a heterosexual marriage.

    • Steve says:

      11:30am | 31/07/09

      Krammar, your initiatl premise is a dictionary definition. Everything based on it is illogical - definitions can and do change.

    • Kieran says:

      12:43pm | 31/07/09

      Do what you want, I don’t care.

      As homosexuals want marriage, not civil unions, may I suggest heterosexuals who want exclusivity just change from marriage to civil unions.

      Problem solved. Next problem.

    • Miles Heffernan says:

      06:21am | 02/04/10

      I got linked to this article after reading Rob Mills’ one.

      “as marriage is the best example of an intensely private arrangement which is subjected to a raft of presumptuous external rules”. What an awesome point you make.

      One of the best days of my life was the day my parents split as I did not wake up to rip snorting fights for breakfast.

      The churches’ influence on what is a civil matter is unacceptable.

      I had to check twice that this and Mills’ articles came from the Murdoch stable. Well done.

    • Joey says:

      01:29pm | 18/10/11

      It shouldn’t matter who you marry. So they are female so are you, who cares????? Love is Love. I have 2 older siblings who are different. My sister is transgender. My brother is gay. When i look at them, I see that they are happy. I’m proud to have them as my older siblings. I support gay marriage. If people don’t like, keep ur comments to yourself. Throwing homophobic vile towards them when they haven’t done anything except being who they are is alomst like beating them up for no reason…. other than being gay which is wrong. Now thats discrimination. But, as I taught. It’s other people’s opinion. Their minds have been made.

    • handy says:

      03:52pm | 05/11/11

      we are gay couple, we happy with our lives, but we want equality, because one of us passed away, how abour property, superannuation, and others, we cant pass to the surviver, because some one will contest the will, so we wanrt gay marriege

    • UGG Australia Outlet says:

      03:23pm | 13/11/12

      I will seek from my doctor’s advice.You can make it!He is ill in bed.In a word£¬I am tired of everything.The whole world knows that.How did the game turn out?How did the game turn out?A wet road is usually slippery.What do you think of this one? How about if we go tomorrow instead?
      UGG Australia Outlet http://uggaustraliaoutlet.elitetestingconsultants.com/

 

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