In defence of choosing childlessness

Dan says:

07:55pm | 16/01/11

And having a child isn’t a selfish act either?

Servaas says:

06:21am | 17/01/11

Depends on why you’re having the child. Just to clarify, I did not say not having children is selfish, I said the writer admits that her reason for not having any is selfishness.

buzzjie says:

12:48pm | 17/01/11

Servaas, I don’t see where the author admits ‘selfishness’.  You’re the one who is reading selfishness into the article.  You are exactly the type of person who is so exasperating to those of us who decide not to have children.

HappyCynic says:

01:18pm | 17/01/11

@Servaas

What’s wrong with selfishness?

Tony of Poorakistan says:

03:50pm | 17/01/11

I think you should propogate for the sake of the nation, otherwise we Aussies will be outnumbered in very short order by recently arrived immigrants of a certain religious and cultural persuasion.

DaveinPerth says:

04:17pm | 17/01/11

@Servaas.  Nothing in the article points to selfishness. Doing a cost / benefit analysis on kids and sticking to the result is not selfish. It’s sensible, rational and the right thing to do.

True selfishness is having kids and being a neglectful parent.
True selfishness is relying on the taxpayer for assistance because you can’t afford to feed your kids.
True selfishness is failing to ensure your kids become honest & useful members of society.

Servaas says:

11:46pm | 17/01/11

“At age 35, I party harder than ever, my social life is going in leaps and bounds, I have a loving family and a wonderful partner (who, by the way, is totally fine with my choice not to go forth and multiply),

I can afford to live in a fabulous two-bedroom house a stone’s throw from the CBD and I get loads of satisfaction from my work.”

“A girlfriend of mine who is also choosing not to become a parent has a theory…..she reckons that people see our carefree lives and are jealous of our freedom.” (the tone makes it seem that the writer agrees with her friend on this one)

“I’m a proud dog owner. That is my choice for a substitute child. I know it’s not the same thing. I know some would say there is far less satisfaction - but let’s face it, by the same token, the responsibilities are miniscule.

And every day is Christmas! Life is so wonderful for a dog. Everything is happy happy joy joy (well, for our dog at least).

No need for up-to-the-minute gadgets or keeping up with the Joneses.

Just a crusty old tennis ball and the occasional yummy treat.

There are some wonderful children out there. Many of my friends have become the proud parents of cute little bundles of joy. They are great to be around - for a little while at least.

But alas, inevitably they will start to annoy me.”

The argument is quite obvious: children of my own will infringe on my time, lifestyle, money and comfort. Unless you have another definition for selfishness I’d say it sums it up quite well.

Did she say however that she would be a lousy parent doing the things DavininPerth mentions because of her partying habits and low patience threshold and therefore not have kids I would give her the nod as a sensible decision-maker.

@HappyCynic
I chose up to this point not to go into what is wrong with selfishness but would love to hear your theory on it.

Servaas says:

12:06am | 18/01/11

...or perhaps the route of arguing that she would do a better job spending herself helping to create a favourable future environment for the children of those who does actually have them, than she would if she had children of her own and had to put all her time and money into her own children while others are creating a less pleasant future.

Her argument however: see above examples.

Diana the huntress says:

03:59pm | 18/01/11

Ah, the breeder bingo started early in this thread. As a happy, childfree woman, I love the “selfishness” argument. Tell me- did you have children for altruistic purposes? No. You had them because you *want* them. Which is fine, but no more or less selfish than those who don’t have them because they don’t want them.

Mikyla Gilbert says:

08:56am | 19/01/11

Naomi, I totally respect your decision to have no children. As a parent who only wants ONE child, my husband and I also get too much pressure from other people (who to be honest should mind their own business) about having another child. Why can’t people just accept that we only want ONE? We get the old “you’ll regret it later” or “it’s not fair on your daughter, wouldn’t she want a brother or sister?”. Honestly I never go up to others and say “why don’t you pop out another one, surely 4 isn’t enough!” We decided many years before even getting pregnant that we only wanted one child, but doctors, parents and other people kept on telling us you WILL change your mind. How the hell would they know we will change our minds. They don’t know us. I truly believe that when other people stick their noses in your life and question your own decisions it is about them not you!

Ironic says:

04:05pm | 19/01/11

i think you need to see a psychologist/expert/budhist monk?.

if you were so ‘fine’ with being childless you wouldnt be talking to everyone about it….. you wouldnt be writing an article about it. you are lying to yourself and your partner (and everyone around you). maybe you havent had kids because ‘you havent met the right person’ or had the ‘oppertunity to so’ and now ‘its too late’. or as another childless friend tells me… everyone knows them as the ‘person who doesnt want kids’. its hard to change everyones perspective of you after so many years of saying ’ i dont want/need children’.

id strongly recomend you ask yourself WHY you keep talking about kids and lack of kids if it has nothing to do with you and your life. do you keep telling people ‘i dont want cancer i dont need it, i dont want aids, i dont need it’.

get to know yourself…..... and be open with yourself.

but at the end of the day if you dont want kids thats fair enough. so many people have kids and treat them badly. its better to be childless then bring them to life and treat them as slaves and abuse them….

Servaas says:

08:52pm | 19/01/11

“Diana the huntress says:04:21pm | 18/01/11

Jesus. I love this assumption that all the childfree do with their time is party and buy stuff. I am not materialistic, nor do I party. Most weekends will see me studying, spending quality time (i.e. talking, not getting s***faced) with valued friends…”

Diana, we actually stand in agreement I’d say as I quite agree with this post of yours (see my above posts) that their are good reasons around for not having kids and if you feel you are called to be involved in such things good on you but the writer above is the one that painted the picture of partying and ‘personal comfort rather than giving oneself to your kids’ vibe and my, and possibly some other’s, response is to her.

Lucy says:

05:40pm | 20/01/11

I am 45 and like Naomi have always known I didn’t want children.  I love children and respect the rights of others to have them but I just didn’t seem to have the urge and then there were the social reasons like the number of unloved children already on the planet - if I could I think giving these children something is a better idea through organisations like the Smith Family etc.  Good on you for speaking up.  On a related note I also hate hearing from the male doctors who keep telling women that its no good for their health if they don’t have babies or that we should have them at a certain age or that we should have them in hospitals etc ... there are enough shoulds in life and I think it is reasonable to think that as adults there are some things which perhaps we “should” be able to decide for ourselves.

Diana the huntress says:

06:03pm | 20/01/11

Lucy, funny you should say that about doctors. I’m 32 and at my last yearly exam I sounded my doctor out about getting a tubal ligation. He said “you won’t find a doctor willing to do it.” They’re afraid of being sued by women who change their minds. Surely there is some kind of waiver we can sign, to stop that from happening?

Kato says:

10:02am | 16/01/11

Sam , I hope you still feel that way when they put you in a nursing home and come to visit you once a month.

Tammy says:

10:45am | 16/01/11

Kato, you reap what you sow. It is the way you bring up your children that determines how you will be treated when you are in a nursing home. From my visits to nursing homes just to chat with the residents they have their children visit as often as they would like them to visit. I can only talk about the one I visit but in some cases the residents are doing more than when they were living alone in their homes with the added bonus of having their children visit more often and enjoy the quality time with their parents without having to worry about their well being.

Naomi doesn’t have to be lonely at a nursing home, she can also be loney at her expensive apartment.

Aeeta says:

12:39pm | 16/01/11

Kato

Who is going to visit the single childless people when they are in a nursing home?

The friends who only come around when there is a party on? Hardly. They will be lucky to be around in 10 years let alone 40 years.

Her current partner? Not likely. Without kids compelling him to stick around he’ll get bored with the same woman and will look elsewhere.

Gladys says:

03:25pm | 16/01/11

My friend visits her neighbour - a widow with no children - in her nursing home. she takes her kids along.

Elphaba says:

04:01pm | 16/01/11

@Aeeta,

So we should have kids so we have someone to visit us in a nursing home?

Do me a favour - find a way to sugar-coat that reason when you tell your kids, because they’re going to be REALLY mad when they find out…

Aeeta says:

06:18pm | 16/01/11

Elphaba

I don’t sugarcoat anything.

Surely you don’t think your parents had you because they knew you’d be a shining beacon of joy and happiness in theirs and everyone elses life

All our reasons for doing things are selfish

Elphaba says:

06:41pm | 16/01/11

@Aeeta, my parents had me because they wanted me.  Because they wanted kids.  They weren’t thinking about “they will be able to look after us when we’re old.”  We kids will do that for Mum and Dad, because we love them.  But we aren’t some old age insurance policy.

Sucks to be you though.  Any parent who told me “We had you as a convenience” would soon find me not so obliging about looking after them.

Aeeta says:

09:22pm | 16/01/11

Elphaba: exactly how do you know that? You believe them? More fool you.

They wanted kids for their own selfish reasons. Happiness. Someone to look after them. Because they thought it was the norm. They didn’t do it to make you happy. They did it for them

Elphaba says:

07:58am | 17/01/11

@Aeeto:

“They had kids because they wanted them.”

I didn’t say anything about them not being selfish.  I didn’t say they had kids for my benefit.  I didn’t say they had kids because they wanted to make the world a better place.

Please read what I wrote before you have a go.

Seano sounds like he had his kids because he wanted them. Just because it’s rare, doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen.

PaulB says:

09:17am | 17/01/11

On the other hand the nurses at the Nursing Home will be glad to be spared the pain of the guilt ridden aggressive Daughter-in-Law elect issuing commands and making complaints every ten minutes.

Jill says:

04:05am | 19/01/11

The notion that your kids will take care of you when you’re old is naive.  I loved my mother, but neither my brother or I were living in the same country when she passed away (she died while visiting family).  For my husband, he lives across the country from his parents.  This is not unusual, since many of my friends don’t live in the same city or country as their parents.

BD says:

10:57am | 22/01/11

yeah hilarious, to think that your children will even be living in the same country as you when you go the nursing home that they will inevitably put you in.  Makes me laugh.  Just go and visit a nursing home one day and see for yourself.  She is writing this article as she is sick of the same old crap and endless articles about children, being a mummy and celebrity baby news probably.  Its about time the childfree start to get more and more vocal.  We shouldnt have to feel bad about our choices or hide our opinions.

Not The Mummy says:

07:16pm | 16/01/11

I agree.  I will turn 35 next week and also don’t desire children. Also like you I adore my neices and nephews and my friends’ kids.  And you know what? I am happy.

But you know what really gets me?  I’ve made a choice not to have kids and self-fund my lifestyle choice.  But those who make a choice to have kids expect me (through my taxes) to help fund their lifestyle choice - Baby Bonus, Family Tax Benefit, Paid Parental Leave etc.  No wonder there’s not enough money to properly fund essential services that benefit everyone.

KH says:

09:05am | 17/01/11

I didn’t have a happy childhood.  I knew from early on that I was supposed to be ‘a boy’.  The disappointment that was barely concealed was followed by mostly being ignored in favour of my younger brother, which continues to this day.  He has turned out OK, but I have suffered from anxiety most of my life, which I now believe is directly related to the resentment my parents obviously felt towards me for being the ‘wrong’ gender.  I decided one day to do a family history - and it became apparent that this was a pattern - generation after generation of people doing stuff they didn’t really want to do, and being miserable.  It was my ‘light bulb’ moment - I decided that I wasn’t going to pass this on to yet another generation just because its ‘expected’.  I really don’t want to do it.  I’m sure its a ‘great experience’ etc, but it just isn’t for me, and I am not going to make myself miserable and pass on that resentment to any other blameless persons.  It stops here, with me.  Some might say that its selfish.  I don’t - I call it being sensible.  I’m just not the right person for the job, so I’m not applying for it.  As for nursing homes - my plan is to be dead long before that happens…...........

Syl says:

10:48am | 17/01/11

Not The Mummy

I am perfectly happy for you to not have children, that is your decision and yours alone, you will find no arguments from me.
However, it could be argued that having children is an “essential service that benefits everyone”.  Afterall they are “the future” (to coin an awfully cliched phrase).  They are going to be our doctors, nurses, garbage collectors and politicians *shudder*.  I see no problem in investing in the future of our society.

Jill says:

04:11am | 19/01/11

I’m in my late 30’s and not a partier, but I love my husband and my pets and don’t want to be saddled with the expense of kids.  Nor do I particularly like them.  I can’t stand the “You’ll change your mind”.  This is one thing I’ve known for my whole life.  I never played with dolls, and I’ve never thought kids to be adorable.  Frankly I never saw the appeal of midnight feedings and diaper changes, followed by them taking over your life, the headache of finding the right school, having them scream “I hate you” when they’ve reached puberty, or the anxiety of how they’ll turn out or if they’ll make the right friends.  I rather stick with my dog, thank you.

Super D says:

11:28am | 16/01/11

I’m betting she’s not really partying harder than ever.  More likely the hangovers are just taking longer than ever to subside.

thicker skin says:

11:18am | 16/01/11

Ditto on the don’t care, just as I don’t care what you think of my choices. There are a million well intention Q’s from societies vault to be insulted and bored by:

“Sooo when are you going to get married? What do you mean never, don’t you want the commitment of a loving partner?”

“So what Uni do you want to get into?”

“Why don’t you get a pet so you can feel the love that comes from a co-dependant relationship?”

“When will you buy your own place?”

“When are you going to try and get a career type of job?”

“How do you cope without a drivers licence?”

“So when do you intend to have your next child so they learn to share?”

J says:

05:58pm | 17/01/11

Absolutely agree wtih thicker skin.  People ask you the “when are you having children?” and “when are you getting married?” type of questions simply because they have nothing else to talk about and are projecting their own interests onto you.  My advice - ignore them!

Someone says:

07:33am | 17/01/11

Assuming I understood your comment correctly:  as a man with children, you should expect to be seeking dating partners from among women also with children.

It’s unfair and unrealistic to expect a woman to want to take on you and your kids, if you’re not prepared to take on hers.

Jim says:

11:15am | 17/01/11

No Someone…it was nothing like that. I’d get an email every day with a list of potential dates on it. I never actually followed up on anything, but if they’d taken the time to write a profile then I was courteous enough to take the time to read it. People gazing in a way.

The women fell into 3 general categories;
1. They had kids and didn’t mind if the guy had kids,
2. They had kids but didn’t want a guy that either had kids or wanted his own kids, or
3. They had no kids and clearly stated they would not consider anyone who did have them.

Chris L says:

01:33pm | 16/01/11

I agree that it isn’t just men who keep pushing for procreation. I susect it tends to be the opposing gender. The reason I say this is, as a man, the most such comments to me come from women. Not really sure why this seems to be.

Rose says:

11:59pm | 16/01/11

I’m not sure that she’s protesting too much, more that she’s had an absolute gutful and having a forum to have a go she’s just let rip. I feel that same way even though I’m at the opposite end of the specrtrum. I have six kids ( all to the same man I have been married to since before the first one was conceived!!) and for years I have been forced to listen to the same crap repeated over and over again by countless people, all of whom think they are being original. Somehow people you have just met or barely know feel that they are an authority on your life and have some God-given right to pass judgement, they don’t!! I have, over the past few years become quite good at telling people to mind their own business, sometimes more subtely than at other times. I think that whatever decision Naomi has made has probably been done with some considerable thought and if she has decided no kids, that’s her right and none of us are entitled to even question it. If down the track she does change her mind, again, it’s no one’s business but her own and her partners. Meanwhile, to people in general, if it’s not your life…BUTT OUT!!!

david says:

11:56am | 16/01/11

In my own experience, I have never been in a situation where a man has even stated an opinion on the subject - let alone putting pressure on a female friend to have kids.

So the next time you are partying hard on the dance floor and the conversation suddenly turns to your reproductive choices - decide to find some new friends. It will probably help you a lot more than yelling at me on a Sunday morning.

Tim says:

10:00am | 17/01/11

Agreed Eric,
In my experience i’ve seen literally hundreds of women go with the old “you’ll change your mind” comments.
Never once seen a man do it.

Steph says:

10:47am | 16/01/11

Love the post, Persephone

C1 says:

12:41pm | 16/01/11

Pers,

Top response!!!

Gladys says:

03:27pm | 16/01/11

Do you think you’re fat, Pers?

Ryan says:

11:01am | 17/01/11

Perfect response, and so much more subtle than the rest of us would have been.
Personally I was in the “who the hell cares what you do” basket, I guess a completely self indulgent article comes along every now and then.

Cooko says:

11:19am | 17/01/11

Even a stopped clock gives the right time twice a day - and for once Persephone has written something I agree with!

Ben21 says:

11:42am | 17/01/11

How many people are reading a response from pers and are agreeing for the first time?

+1

Tim says:

11:53am | 17/01/11

“Oh, and very very few parents reading this are envious of your freedom. Most of us look back to our childless days (which seemed at the time to be very fulfilling and exciting) with a sort of wry amusement.”

Ahhh how you wish this was true. But i suppose when you surround yourself with other “like” thinkers this is what happens.
I know plenty of parents (The men in particular) who think and say stuff like this Persephone, but the look on their faces when I tell them about what I’m doing on the weekend / my next overseas holiday or latest purchase tells another story. I think jealousy and longing might be closer to the truth.
Sure there are all types of benefits with having kids, and I myself haven’t decided whether I want any or not, but to claim there is not a massive downside would be ignorant in the extreme. Maybe your kids scrambled your brain?

Richele says:

12:45pm | 17/01/11

I was going to write a comment, but I can’t top this one. Well said.

James1 says:

02:18pm | 17/01/11

No Tim, that’s not what they are doing.  That look is them wondering how you could possibly take joy from that, and find pride in the things you do, because for them, they didn’t know or understand true joy and pride until they had children.

There is a type of love that those without children will never understand, and many parents will pity you for that.  That looks is them thinking “how sad, that he thinks his latest purchase is fulfilling”...

For parents, or at those who are not alcoholics or drug addicts, the lost “freedom” means nothing.  Only a bad parent would regret such trivialities.

James1 says:

02:41pm | 17/01/11

I should add, none of what I said is meant to imply I think you should change your mind - my tone is rather condescending, and I hadn’t meant it that way.

I was more just trying to get across how those fathers and mothers think of things, not trying to argue that they are correct.  They are not jealous, it just takes them back to a time when they thought differently about the world, and their role in it.  To me, when my child-free friends pity me for not being able to go out drinking or something, I just think “how quaint”.

Tim says:

04:06pm | 17/01/11

James,
sorry but I think that’s a croc.
I’m not talking about life “fullfillment” or anything like that.
I actually think that people who talk about being “fullfilled” in their life or job or whatever are more often than not leading completely boring and slave-like lives. Using a child as some sort of proxy for fullfillment in your life is very sad indeed.
As I said there may be plenty of upside in having a child, but if you think that having fun or being able to live your own life the way you want is “trivial” then yes, i do pity you.
Why do you think so many people who once their children turn 18 or move out get divorced,  have a mid-life crisis or completely change their lives?
I’ll give you a hint - it’s not because having children has left them fullfilled.

Tim says:

04:13pm | 17/01/11

Oh and James,
read June’s comment below. Not every parent has this almighty love that no-one else can ever possibly understand for their children. Some in their weaker moments even have the nerve to admit it.

Ducks says:

04:19pm | 17/01/11

@ James, Pers and all of the posters who argue that children change your life and make it happier, please check out this article from the New Yorker.

http://nymag.com/news/features/67024/

Basically it’s an incredibly interesting article on the effects of children on peoples overall happiness levels. Repeated studies show that the childless are consistently happier. My favorite quote: “Even people who believe the data say they feel sorry for those for whom it’s true.”
The authors do concede there may be other measures of joy or benefits that they have not managed to capture. This is essentially because they struggle to understand how nearly everyone without children is proven to be happier on a day-to-day basis, and yet everyone with children believes they could not be as happy without.

Personally, I beleive to have children or not is a choice. No judgement here. I do understand the author’s point that what annoys here is the judgement she receives from others. Anything that is repetitive and consistent enough would get on your nerves.

James1 says:

09:06am | 18/01/11

Tim,

How would you know?  You can not even begin to understand the life of a parent, because you are not one.  I do understand your life, because before I became a parent, I was child free as well.  And to me, no matter what other people do or studies say, it is a far better option (but at the same time I recognise that this is not the experience of others).  You can not even comprehend the fun of having a child - comparing it to getting drunk or buying stuff is rather pathetic and shallow.  Believe it or not, I can make that comparison because I get drunk when the fancy takes me and I buy things as well.  You are in no position to compare, because you only understand one side of the coin.  So don’t waste your pity on me, sir.  Keep it for where it is needed.

Tim says:

10:10am | 18/01/11

No James,
you don’t know my life and I don’t know yours because no-one is the same.
You also cannot compare because you didn’t live the life you would have if you didn’t have children. It is impossible for you to compare. I also have no doubt that a lot of parents suffer from some severe cognitive dissonance with relation to this issue. Objectivity is not a strong point.
But sure I get it, you love your children and you wouldn’t have it any other way. That’s fine, live your own life.
My point is that not everyone has this rosy experience of parenting as I pointed out with June’s comment below. Duck’s comment is also interesting.
I am sick of people who’ve managed to get someone pregnant thinking it makes them somehow special.
“Look I had sex, now hand over your money and bow down before me”

Diana the huntress says:

04:21pm | 18/01/11

Jesus. I love this assumption that all the childfree do with their time is party and buy stuff. I am not materialistic, nor do I party. Most weekends will see me studying, spending quality time (i.e. talking, not getting s***faced) with valued friends, making art or volunteering at an animal shelter. I am working on a degree that will eventually provide me a with a skill which pays well and is highly valued by certain sectors of the community. Many people in my field do it for the money- I plan (as I have all along) to donate a large chunk of my time to organisations that need my services but can’t pay. Why? Because I care and the community needs it. I don’t judge people for having children or assume they are jealous and miserable (really, their choice is none of my business) but the assumption that being childfree automatically makes me selfish is misplaced and offensive. Tell me I’m selfish and shallow when I am getting 4am emergency call-outs on a Saturday, then working pro bono well into Sunday night, on a weekend when the average family is at swimming or little athletics or whatever. Fine pursuits, I’m not putting them down. But don’t assume that the only thing the childfree are doing on a weekend is sleeping off a hangover or going to Chapel St to throw money around.

James1 says:

10:13am | 19/01/11

Agree 100% Tim.  Not everyone has my experience, and I certainly can’t speak for others.  All I am saying is never assume that everyone is jealous of you and your life, as there are many different ways to have a wonderful life.  There is a good chance that I enjoy my life just as much as you enjoy yours.  I would no more assume that all childfree people live empty and shallow lives than you should assume, to quote from your post, that “plenty of parents (The men in particular) who think and say stuff like this Persephone, but the look on their faces when I tell them about what I’m doing on the weekend / my next overseas holiday or latest purchase tells another story. I think jealousy and longing might be closer to the truth.”

Also Diana, I assume that only in cases where there is evidence similar to that displayed in the quote above.

Rob says:

10:22am | 16/01/11

After 35 years in the workforce, with no kids, I think I’ve probably created a fair bit of wealth and paid my share of taxes. Not to mention paid enough Super to keep myself going for a while.

So, I appreciate your kids dedication to the nation, but I don’t need it.

Elphaba says:

10:55am | 16/01/11

Well said Rob.  I plan on funding my own retirement, and keeping my private health insurance for when I get sick.  I thought that’s what people were supposed to do…?

Paul says:

06:59pm | 16/01/11

sure Rob & Elphaba, you’ll build your own roads, cars, food, sewerage systems etc as well.  Give up and just accept the help -we get it, you made the ultimate sacrifice, thank you.

KH says:

10:13am | 17/01/11

Thats OK Vaunted - our taxes are paying for your little darlings education, all the middle class welfare that their parents receive, and we will continue to do so until they complete university and start paying it back.  Whatever…......this is one of the more ludicrous arguments I hear against childlessness.

Diana the huntress says:

08:04pm | 18/01/11

Oh, please. We have to do that anyway- how many Australian kids with access to education do you know who voluntarily go into the aged care field? I would bet most of you with children, if asked what you hope they’ll do for a living, would NOT put aged care at the top of the list.

acker says:

03:50pm | 16/01/11

I hate to be brutally honest, but having used to dabble in cattle often getting cows and heifers in calf, if they did not produce a calf they would be sent to the meat-works. If humans stop breeding our species will become extinct.

Elphaba says:

04:37pm | 16/01/11

@acker - correct.

But…. eventually we will overpopulate the planet, drain its resources, make life miserable, and eventually become extinct anyway.  Nothing lasts forever.  It’s just a case of how quickly we get there.

acker says:

05:42pm | 16/01/11

@Elphaba ...perhaps it is better that well educated Western mothers (eg: Australian) increase population rather than un-educated subsistence farmers ?

Elphaba says:

06:55pm | 16/01/11

@acker, if only intelligent Western women were having babies, it’s still a ticking time bomb.  And intelligence is subjective.  What are the defining qualities?

It’d be great if humans could be like animals, and the need to procreate was a baser instinct that screamed in our ears and drowned out everything else (although I know, for some women, that’s already happening).  But there are other options, and a wonderful life doesn’t always include a baby.

For me personally, I’m not having a baby because I’m supposed to further the species because of some perceived obligation.  Yes, my parents had me, and I should continue to spread the Elphaba gene, blah blah blah… but I just don’t want to.  And I can’t be made to do something I don’t want to do.  It’s kind of a trait of mine.

To be quite honest, I don’t care how the rest of the world works, or how it conducts itself.  Stupid people can breed, I don’t care.  So long as they don’t bother me and make my life miserable, then I’ll just keep poking along doing my own thing.

And at the end of the day, we all die.  Most of us will not leave a mark on the world.  Most of us will be forgotten. Then one day when there are no people left, we will all be forgotten.  Just… meh.  I’m ok with it.

Likes Joining Dots says:

03:43pm | 16/01/11

@Elphaba

I don’t think you are being selfish at all.  Some of the comments I have read so far for having children seem to have a similiar selfish motive and include:

Having children out of patriotism.
“who is going to work to create the wealth to pay the taxes”  (Vaunted)

Having children out of insecurity.
“Without kids compelling him to stick around he’ll get bored with the same woman and will look elsewhere”. (Aeeta)

Having children, just because ..
“I just needed a fundamental change of focus” (Gladys)

Having children to look after me in my dotage.
“It is a challenge that can be very rewarding in later years especially if you are going to be left without a partner, dog etc.” (Rosie)

Having children so I’m not sad and lonely in my dotage.
“It won’t come back to bite you in the arse and die a sad or lonely spinster if you don’t allow it to happen.” (Rosie)
“Who is going to visit the single childless people when they are in a nursing home?” (Aeeta)
“Sadly there are those that never had children so don’t get anyone visiting them.” (Rosie again)

Having children because, well - we’re bored.
“We were bored. There are only so many wonderful meals, parties, movies before you realize it is repetitive”  (Paul)

I can understand the reasons for people wanting/not wanting children and those are accectable choices. However, some of these other reasons to have children was an eye opener for me.

I thought Seano summed it up nicely for me - (I say this having read Seanos’ comments in 2010 and I am quite confident the man is incapable of blushing).

“But I would not give up my family for anything. My daughters are my joy and I treasure every moment.”

Now that’s how I see a true parent.

Elphaba says:

04:35pm | 16/01/11

@Like Joining Dots - I couldn’t agree with you more.  Beautifully said, some of the reasons here seem to be nothing about having kids because you love them and they brighten your life, and all about breeding a backbone to support you when you get old.

We all die alone, no matter how many children you have.

Seano says:

08:00am | 17/01/11

Thx LJD.

Matt says:

04:07pm | 21/01/11

There seems to me to be some question on the issue of ‘selfishness’. Philosophically this is actually an argument that has persisted for a very long time. It can be argued that everything we do (including altruistic acts like giving to charity) are only done for selfish reasons (we feel good ourselves when we give to charity, or we want others to think highly of us). It is really not a convincing argument that the act of having children or not having children is ‘selfish’.

However, with children you are forced (if you want to be a good parent) to put your child’s needs ahead of your own. This is the worst part of being a parent, but in some ways, the best part. You don’t like having to change dirty nappies. You don’t like your kids fighting back and arguing with you. But you do it anyway - for them (or philosophically we could argue you do it for yourself to feel like you’re a good parent or you develop a better relationship with your child which ultimately benefits you, but i digress..). The results of putting this other person so unconditionally first gives you a bond that you’ve never had with anyone else in your life. And it can be an amazingly fulfilling bond. I don’t judge anyone on whether they choose to do this or not, but I can understand why parents would encourage it - because they were surprised at how much happiness it has brought them.

So if you’re happy, you’re happy, I don’t know you and I don’t care. But damnit I would encourage my family and my friends to have children, because it is the best thing I’ve ever done. Just like my brother encourages me to go on a motorbike trip because he enjoyed it himself. He’s not being a prick and invading in my life, he’s just trying to share the experiences that he’s enjoyed and he thinks that I will enjoy.

You can say ‘no im a big girl and I can make my own decisions’, that’s fair enough. But you can’t blame people for wanting to share something they feel so strongly about.

Gladys says:

03:30pm | 16/01/11

Actually, I know a lot of school teachers who don’t want kids. And if they have children of their own, they don’t want to work with other kids.

And the second most insulting group is the ones who have two children (drink a bottle of wine each night) and tell you you should have a second child when you don’t want one.

Chris L says:

01:36pm | 16/01/11

Indeed, given how overworked the folks at DOCS seem to be I’d say more people should remain childless. Perhaps there should be a course for people to take before becoming parents.

Seano says:

07:34am | 17/01/11

I agree that more education would be helpful. Personally and I know that this might seem controversial to some but think the policy of trying to keep families together is flawed. I’m particularly thinking about people with drug issues who don’t want to or can’t get clean.

Based on my experience in teaching and my wife’s in medicine I think the outcomes for these children are not improved by continually giving certain people second chances.

Jane says:

01:20pm | 18/01/11

Seano, that is lovely. Exactly the reason why people who really want children, should have them. (And those that don’t, shouldn’t!)

Diana the huntress says:

08:07am | 19/01/11

See, Seano, you’re the kind of person that *should* have kids. You want it, you love it and you’ve thought it through. You’re also realistic enough to realise it’s not for everyone.

Kato says:

10:17am | 16/01/11

Please Rosie, I too work in a nursing home and there is little difference between the residents who have children and those who don’t. Several ladies have their walls covered in family photos but never physically see their families. Then there are the 15 minute visitors. The children who come once a week for 15 minutes and leave as fast as they can. The grandchildren certainly don’t visit and the great grand-children only visit if they are babies and have no say in it. At the Christmas party one grandson came and sat at the dining table playing an electronic game the entire time and didn’t say a word. So yes, children are wonderful and add to your life but don’t make out that when you’re old they’ll be the ones taking care of you. Faster than you can say ‘where’s my inheritance?’ they will put you in a nursing home ‘for your own good’ and be pleased they don’t have to do the looking after.

Simon says:

10:45am | 16/01/11

that’s good, breed your own visitors !!

Rosie says:

11:29am | 16/01/11

Kato you paint a very different picture to the one I see, a very sad one as well.

I have got to know a lot of those that work at the nursing home I visit and we all know the residents that do not have any children because they are the ones always whinging and can be very demanding as if they are in need of attention. I find when I visit these residents for the first time they make me feel I am not welcomed but through sheer determination on my part I always end up talking to them a lot longer than those that have families. They always try to prove that they have had a fulfilled life with lots of friends but haven’t a clue where all their friends are or the last time they enjoyed the company of their friends.

On the other hand the residents that have had children will speak proudly of their children, grandchildren and great grandchildren of their whereabouts and what they are up to. I find myself doing a lot of listening than talking. If they do not want to be there, they will not say because they want to make everyone feel that it is the best place for them to be.

As for the inheritance and children not wanting to take care of their parents I am certain it is the way in which you bring them up because I know for certain our children will do the right thing for us and their children for them because we did the right thing for our parents.

I was always negative about nursing homes, but not anymore. I must add the one I visit is run by very caring wonderful people, most of them are migrants that have brought to this country the ideals and obligations of taking good care of the age. It is so wonderful to see them treat the age as precious human beings.

Bitten says:

02:25pm | 16/01/11

Oh Rosie, you’re so kind. So kind and so giving. How kind and sweet of you to volunteer with old people. They must so appreciate conversation with you, you must be practically sainted in their eyes. They must never be around to hear you being patronizing about how demanding the childless old people are, but you just persevere don’t you with your great determination, how wonderful of you!

They’re not stupid Rosie. They don’t deserve your patronizing condescension. They don’t need to be spoken down to, or spoken badly of as you have done. They don’t need to have their life’s choices judged and questioned. They’re just old. If we’re very lucky, we will one day get to be just like them.

Rosie says:

05:59pm | 16/01/11

Bitten, what utter rubbish you post, I don’t care what you think of me because patronizing or condescending is not me. It is very gratifying and humbling when I am asked to come back soon by the residents and those that are responsible for the well being of these old people.

Yes you are right, these old people are not stupid and so are those that are employed to take care of them for if they were stupid they would see through me and I would be told to stop my visits.

I am made aware of the new residents that I visit and in all cases I am told whether they have families that come to visit or not. I was talking about my first impression and could easily have walked away but didn’t because I have ended up with a positive outcome.

You cannot fake these visits, you need to enjoy and find it rewarding to do it. That was the first thing I was told and I have been doing it for the last 8 years and intend to keep doing it. Oh yes most of the residents have dementia but I never think of it, I just try to listen and be there for company.

I would hate to have people like you and Kato with the negativity working in the in these places caring for a loved one. I will consider myself blessed if I don’t have to go into one of these homes. My children know the only time they will put me in there is when I lose my independence and not capable of taking care of myself. I would probably have dementia and wouldn’t care anyway.

Akrasiel Rising says:

09:23pm | 16/01/11

@ Rosie… Thanks for the clarification, I almost changed my mind about having kids so that I would have someone come and visit me in my dotage. However upon closer reflection I realised that other peoples opinion regarding what may or may not occur in my old age really means squat in the grand scheme of things.  I fear it is idle fantasy that I dream of a world in which people do not (as you have quite clearly stated you like to do) persist with “sheer determination” to try and make me realise what they think I am missing out on.

Besides, when I choose my own nursing home (What’s that I hear you say… The kids don’t have to choose it for me?) I will make sure that it is one that brings in companion dogs to listen to my whinging, the dogs are great listeners and there is actual research to support that they do indeed make a positive difference, unlike condescending do-gooders. But as you have pointed out in your own proudly contemptuous way, I will most probably have dementia and not care anyway.

Christian says:

10:37pm | 16/01/11

I’m relieved to hear that most of the poor buggers have dementia. My condolences, however, to those “demanding” people whom you insist on inflicting yourself upon, despite having made their wishes clear. And I agree with the other commenters that unlike us, at least they don’t have to hear about what you really think of them.

Steph says:

09:44am | 19/01/11

My Grandma on my Dad’s side had 7 kids (although 2 have died), all of whom have their own kids and some of whom have their own kids.
We are estranged from my Dad (to put it politely) but adored our Grandma. When she ended up in a nursing home and was dying, My mum (so NOT her child) along with myself and my brother were the only ones who visited her. So having kids did her diddly squat in terms of visitation and companionship in her later years. We also had a dear old family friend (married, no kids) who our entire family visited frequently for the years she was confined to a nursing home, before this she was just another member of the family for dinners, christmases etc.
You don’t need to be related to your family for them still to be your family.

Zac says:

10:53am | 16/01/11

Correction: Sorry, I mean’t “childlessness”.

Nico says:

01:17pm | 17/01/11

Zac.
Many of these quotes come from the more ‘radical’ or (although I hate the word) ‘extremist’ feminists, and obviously do not represent everyone. To use these examples as evidence that Feminism (which is not a unified whole anyway) is conditioning women into thinking that children ‘represent hatred, slavery, rape…’ is misleading.

Diana the huntress says:

04:25pm | 18/01/11

I can only speak for myself, but my decision to remain childfree has nothing to do with politics or ideology. I simply have no desire to bear or raise a child.

Beck says:

04:19pm | 17/01/11

Yes, dogs are better than children….

Peglegs says:

10:15am | 18/01/11

Hell yes dogs are better than children! As are cats, I love cats!

Rosie says:

06:13pm | 16/01/11

Bitten don’t bother about explaining, you do what you want, it is a free country. However, you sound like someone I wouldn’t want around me when if I happen to be placed in a nursing home.

K-Dogg. says:

08:02am | 17/01/11

Bitten,

I understand exactly, when you commit yourself wholeheartedly to something there is no other time to commit yourself wholeheartedly to something else. And you just want to be an amazing medical professional more than you want children, it really doesn’t matter if it’s a lot more or a little more, you know what you want.

Obviously Rosie doesn’t get it:

” you sound like someone I wouldn’t want around me when if I happen to be placed in a nursing home.”

@ Rosie
I would be amazingly pleased to have such a dedicated, well-rounded doctor in my nursing home. And FYI, just because someone doesn’t have children doesn’t mean they lack compassion or kindness. Which is what I think you were implying.

Steph says:

08:55pm | 16/01/11

For me, personal experience is as follows:

Fleas from a dog - more than I can count. Fleas from a child - none.

Noise in the middle of the night from a dog - pretty much all my life. Someone, somewhere has a dog that won’t STFU! Noise in the middle of the night from a child - first 10 months of their life.

Items destroyed by a dog - a new camera lens (for a very expensive Canon) which was a wedding present and a new pair of shoes, unworn, just from the shop. Items destroyed by a child - none.

Children smell bad when they need a nappy change. Dogs smell bad all the time.

When I was called to go overseas with my husband for a business trip, I could pick up my child and go. I didn’t need to arrange kennel stays or vet treatments while gone. And then come back to find the kennel in question didn’t maintain the fur very well and the dogs whole back end was matted.

Children can exercise themselves. Dogs can’t.

You can feed a child whatever you cook up for dinner. You have to buy special food for a dog.

Yes, children might run around and create havoc, but at least they’re not going to try and dig up the vegie patch. Not more than once, anyway. Or try to scare the chooks to death.

Dog attacks - 3. Children attacks - 0

So, armed with personal experiences listed above - give me a child over a dog any day!

To top it off, children aren’t going to crawl under the house in the dead of night and howl under the bedroom floorboards all bloody night! (like a couple of beagle puppies I babysat for a friend)

mum of one says:

11:00am | 17/01/11

And how about all those self righteous non parents out there who are so condescending to us parents please get over yourselves! So what, I have kids who cares. 
Here’s a news flash, questions about ones personal life do not just happen to those of you who chose to not have children it happens to us all.  My daughter is now 3 and I get asked daily “when the next one is coming?”.  When I answer with “No we have decided to only have one” I get called selfish, mean and told I too will change my mind.  Difference is I am happy with my decision so I truly don’t care what anyone thinks.  If you felt the same about your decisions perhaps you wouldn’t care so much either

Grace says:

09:32am | 18/01/11

Steph, first of all congratulations for being so lucky as to not have a disabled child or a child with special needs. They are much harder to train than dogs. You think you can just cook up whatever you like for a child but if your child had a peanut allergy, a weight problem or diabetes you’d be eating your words! Try getting a full night’s sleep when you’re the parent of an autistic child. In fact, count how many possessions you’d have left intact if your child was born autistic. If your child was severely disabled you’d have to arrange hospice care for when you travel, which is MUCH more difficult to get than a place in a boarding kennel. As a result you probably would just stay at home changing nappies, even when the child is a teenager and severely overweight due to being immobile.

I worked at a special school for a long time and I took a long break after I was beaten into a coma by an autistic teenager. When people have children they rarely if ever consider the possibility of a disabled child. Would you prefer a dog or a disabled child now?

Expat says:

10:47pm | 16/01/11

Your parents are a far better example, AtM. I’m sure they wouldn’t use the corpses of fellow Australians for cheap political attacks.

Beck says:

04:36pm | 17/01/11

My dogs don’t leave shit on the ground for me to stand in. They go in the garden.

Louise says:

09:50am | 18/01/11

If your dog is trained it won’t shit where you’ll step in it. People don’t always train their children either you know, which is why our prisons are full.

Get a life! says:

08:11am | 17/01/11

Honestly.
Where do you get off?

Her man will leave her for a young model….. pfft?

Comments like that have are exactly what Naomi is talking about!

Is someone unhappy with thier 4 kids driving them up the wall.
Well I better get back to work, remember that?
And I guess you better go too, playschool starts soon!

Katie says:

04:22pm | 17/01/11

Why does anyone have to be wrong or right? That’s what this article is saying - it’s about your own personal choice. What’s good for one is not good for another.

Paige says:

10:06am | 18/01/11

Oh here we go, the Mumzilla Brigade is here. Some people love animals and you have to respect that. Maybe they’ve had better experiences with animals than children. Get off your high-horse.

Bratty, snotty-nosed children and obnoxious teenagers don’t even compare to my beautiful loyal dogs.

Tim says:

04:09pm | 17/01/11

Frances,
so you have to have children to have people who genuinely care about you?
How sad.

Elphaba says:

10:17am | 17/01/11

That doesn’t stop some parents living their lives through their children - dictating their career, who they’ll marry, their grandchildren… it’s bloody sad, and you’re absolutely right.

Eleanor says:

12:12pm | 17/01/11

Bang on Elphaba. My cousin got married later in life to a woman who already had two children and his parents were horrible. They said that she was too old for him and she couldn’t give them the grandchildren they wanted, and refused to allow her two children to call them grandma and grandpa.

I was younger at the time, but I feel like saying to them ‘well, of course, because what you want and your opinions are far more important than the happiness of your child, right?’

Elphaba says:

01:17pm | 17/01/11

@Eleanor, it really is frightening, those parents.  I have a relative like that, who is desperate for grandchilden (and because she had boys, I think she’ll be a nutcase if they each get married and have baby girls), but I’m so glad my parents aren’t like that.  They just want me to be happy.  Single, coupled, it doesn’t matter.

My brother is 3 yrs younger than me and got married a few months ago.  I couldn’t be more excited for him and my sister-in-law.  But at the wedding, I did get the questions about “Why didn’t I bring a bloke to the wedding?  When are you going to get married?”  And the old chestnut “So… are you interested in women, is that it?”

I know that the majority of the time, it’s well intentioned.  But when you answer the question with ‘I’m not really looking/maybe happiness does not equal marriage/honestly, I really like having the TV all to myself and sleeping diagonally in the bed” - they look at me with horror.

Nobody just leaves people alone to get on with their life.  They spend all their time pointing out the supposed flaws of other people, so that they don’t have to turn the mirror of criticism onto themselves.  It stinks.

Trish says:

09:10am | 18/01/11

Agree. I work at the front desk at a major hotel and I witnessed some terrible parenting the other day. The mother brought her 4 young children into the city for the weekend, one of them a baby, another a toddler, a girl of about 4 and a boy of about 7. There were a few credit card issues that were causing some minor delays. The way the 4 and 7 year-olds behaved was disgraceful but what was worse was the mother’s lack of discipline (actually no discipline at all). The boy was smart mouthing her and saying “are you stupid or something?” and the girl threw a tantrum and started yelling “I hate you Mummy, I hate you!” and she started hitting and kicking her. The mother didn’t say a word. It was the most pathetic thing I’d ever seen. If I’d ever spoken to my mother like that I’d be throttled! But of course we live in a cotton-wool society.

Naomi says:

08:09am | 18/01/11

Thanks Eleanor, I’m definitely going to give that one a whirl!

Dazeddazza says:

12:13pm | 17/01/11

Good one Jen, saved me writing it!!

KH says:

12:19pm | 17/01/11

And its this kind of condescension that is particularly annoying.  As if somehow I will ‘regret’ not having the children I have absolutely no desire to have.  I am yet to regret not doing something that I really didn’t want to do.

Maso says:

03:46pm | 17/01/11

Smugness is hardly a good parenting quality.

Anne says:

02:34pm | 17/01/11

Ha. A bloke afer my own heart.

Cjane says:

08:05pm | 17/01/11

Completely agree - we have taken over the world & are knocking off other species one by one, but hey, more & more people just has to be the answer right?

I choose never to have children of my own. I choose to recycle, reuse, not own a car & many other lifestyle choices that I PERSONALLY consider as necessary to help support the planet we live on.

To all those people who, once the small chat is covered, then think they can dive right into my personal life & make judgments on my choices, I don’t turn around & attack them on helping worsen over-population etc. Nor do I point out all the tax concessions / child support payments they receive while middle income single people / partnered & childless carry the burden of the tax system.

What I do say, & what I always wonder why all those going on about the endless joys of parenthood too rarely do, is say that one day, when I am financially able to, I fully intend to FOSTER children, particularly hard to place teens, to help provide a place for other peoples children who are unable to live with their own parents.

All those comments previously who have attacked those who choose to not give birth to children, get off your high horses & please stop acting like bearing children is equivalent to creating the future of the human race!

Jade says:

04:10pm | 17/01/11

Wow June, I am glad people like you are few and far between. What a horrible thing to say about a child that has done no harm to you.  If you hate him so much, put him up for adoption and let someone who would love him have him.

You don’t seem fit or seem to deserve to be a mother.

Natty says:

04:23pm | 17/01/11

I don’t think what you are feeling is normal. You should seriously think about geting some help.

Romli065 says:

04:29pm | 17/01/11

Wow June, that’s brually honest.  I bet if other women were to be as honest as you, there would be many more who would admit to this experience also.  The problem is that once you have kids, that’s it, you have to love them, you have to take care of their every need, you have to give up and sacrifice everything for their sake.  If you don’t you get judged as a bad mother, which is even worse than not being a mother at all.  Your post just made me even more certain that my decision to not have children was the right one for me. Good luck to you.

Katie says:

04:35pm | 17/01/11

June, you’re obviously having an extremely rough time. I hope your partner/family/friends are offering you some decent emotional support because it sounds like you need it. If not, please ask them. Or ask your doctor if they can recommend someone you can talk to. No one should have to feel that bad.

Elphaba says:

06:13pm | 17/01/11

@June, your comments are really sad.  I suggest you think about seeking some professional help, having someone to talk to who is disconnected fom the situation might help you.  Also, do you have a supportive partner?  Perhaps try telling him about what you’re going through, maybe he would see a counselor with you?

Thank you for giving voice to something many women feel, but are afraid to say, because people like @Jade just make you feel even more shit than you already do with their pathetic barbs.

Good luck.

Jade says:

11:05pm | 17/01/11

Ok, soni have gone away and had a think about it and I was way to harsh in my initial comment. It just makes me angry web I know so many people who would die for a baby, yet I see people talk about them that way.

Anyway from your post it is obvious that are are seriously suffering from post natal depression. You really need to go and talk to someone about it asap before you do something to either harm yourself or your son.

Just remember that you are his world, he idolises you and loves you unconditionally regardless of how you feel.

Diana the huntress says:

06:43am | 19/01/11

Thank you for sharing, June, that was brave of you. I am sorry you are having such an awful time. I must echo the others and say that maybe talking to someone will help. There is no shame in seeking help when you need it.

Jade- even in your second post you are missing the point. June may not have PND (she may, that’s for a professional to assess)- she may just plain regret having a child. If more women were able to admit this there wouldn’t be the stigma attached and there would be more honest dialogue about women’s choices. Attempting to guilt and shame her into feeling something she doesn’t isn’t any help- to her or other women in her situation.

Steph says:

09:30am | 19/01/11

Too bloody right!

lisa says:

10:37pm | 17/01/11

Yes, you are right Emma. People have kids because THEY want them. It is very very selfish. Thank you for your honest and refreshing words.

Louise says:

08:38am | 18/01/11

I completely agree with you Emma. It only wouldn’t be selfish if people were to adopt. Then again that isn’t an easy process but even if it were, the self-righteous-mumzilla brigade would still choose to have their own because they would prefer them to inherit their own genes. Having a baby is absolutely a selfish act.