I was once at a dinner party when a friend, who I think had read a Robert Fisk article that morning, began explaining an aspect of Middle Eastern politics. Unbeknown to her, one of the guests was something of an expert in the field, and was nodding politely at my friend’s newfound wisdom. I felt the need to jump in and save her from embarrassment.

Just another one of those dumb religious political leaders.

I have something of a similar response to Brendan Brown’s appeals to rationality (Why an Atheist Prime Minister is better The Punch Nov 10). The article, picking up on the now familiar New Atheist shtick makes me want to point out some realities of history and philosophy that the writer seems unaware of. 

There are some bold claims here. We read for instance that, “even the most devout of Jesus’ disciples would admit that the Bible makes an underwhelming historical document.”

The audacious statement, sweeping aside thousands of years of scholarly work, reveals a lack of understanding of believers in the first instance, but also of the many non-believing historians who nonetheless consider the biblical text to be historically robust by ancient history standards. Classicist and historian Joseph Klausner and his successor, Oxford Professor Geza Vermes, come to mind as historians at the top of their field, without Christian affiliation, who consider the New Testament to be serious history at its core.

And what about the claim that economic reform and climate change are decidedly secular issues?  That appears arbitrary and ill-founded. It is very clear that faith has contributed to and shaped, in both good and bad ways, huge social movements throughout centuries. One can immediately think of the fight to end slavery, 18th Century British social reform and the Civil Rights movement in the States, the growth of education and development of hospitals. We could go on.

The suggestion that religion survives on “faith alone” and that it is not subjected to even the most elementary scrutiny or analysis, is especially problematic. It’s boringly obvious to point out the many great minds that do in fact believe and could hardly be thought of as foolishly naïve. Even that most pugnacious of atheists, Christopher Hitchens, is happy enough to describe Francis Collins, the man who brought the human genome project to completion and a committed Christian, as “one of the greatest living Americans”.  Presumably Collins isn’t in the business of committing his life to something that is completely devoid of evidentiary burden, as Brown believes all religion to be.

But regarding the argument that religious belief is entirely non-rational; that it is about disregarding the laws of the universe and ignoring the natural order I do feel the need to offer a suggestion. For those who want to go down that path, getting familiar with Notre Dame Professor Alvin Plantinga’s work on why naturalism cannot be rationally believed, might make for an interesting excursion?

Plantinga, a leading American philosopher, recently explained his famous argument in an interview with the Centre for Public Christianity. The basic idea is this: if you’re a naturalist (there’s no God or gods), you’ll also be a materialist (the only thing that exists, including consciousness, is physical matter). You’ll think human beings are material objects, and that there isn’t any immaterial soul, or self, or person.

You will also necessarily think that any belief that someone might hold (all religion is irrational for instance) is something like a structure of neurons in the nervous system, or in the brain, which will have two kinds of properties. The belief will have neuro-physiological properties, but it will also have content properties.

Now, evolution doesn’t give a toss about what you believe.  It only cares about rewarding adaptive behaviour and punishing maladaptive behaviour. So evolution will modify those neuro-physiological properties in the direction of greater adaptiveness, but it doesn’t follow that it modifies belief in the direction of truth. Evolution doesn’t care about true belief.

So, says Plantinga, if you accept the combination of naturalism and materialism, you’ll have to take it that for any particular belief you might hold, the probability that it’s true is about a half. It could as likely be true as false. All you really know is that as creatures, we evolve and behave adaptively. If that’s the case, given naturalism and evolution, then the probability that one’s beliefs are reliable will be low.

Now of course, if you don’t accept naturalism and materialism, and suspect there is more going on inside you and those you love than mere physical matter, then you don’t have that problem. If you think there is more to life than only that which you can see and touch and smell, you have grounds for trusting your faculties.

None of this is intended to prove belief. But it might give Brendan Brown reason to pause. He’s right that rationality shouldn’t be an optional quality in a Prime Minister. But he’s wrong to think that religious faith is always evidence of leaving one’s brain at the door.

Simon Smart is a Director of the Centre for Public Christianity

45 comments

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    • Focus on reality says:

      12:09pm | 14/11/10

      This really isn’t that complicated. You can either gracefully accept that our level of knowledge of the universe will always have limitations, or you can invent a magical being to fill the gaps and make co-incidences seem pre-ordained.

      If the latter makes you feel more comfortable with your existence in a deterministic universe, than goody for you. But please don’t try to justify your belief in something that you know cannot be proven or disproved. That is pseudoscience.

    • Sandy says:

      03:48pm | 14/11/10

      Sounds to me that you don’t understand religion. You need to look deeper.  Which is what this Punch piece is all about.  Looking deeper.

      Isn’t feeling comfortable what life is all about? Otherwise we’ll just quit and die out and hence wouldn’t have made it to the point of self determination some millenium ago. I.e. when the truth about ourselves was revealed to us by ..... somehow.

      Science uses the same techniques as religion.  So what if Jesus didn’t exist and really is just a way of measuring, of representing, God’s sacrifice for inspiring the man to do things that are better for them in the long run. I.e. an idea that is worth recognising. Leaves are green only because your eyes tell you that they are green.  Other animals ‘see’ other ‘colours’?  I.e. our eyes, just like many scientific instruments, are just a way of measuring, of representing, something that is there.  I.e. an idea that is worth recognising.

      So what if God isn’t a ‘magical being’. (To you)  But just a measure of all that’s good about us and that is good for us.

      Are you really against religion?  Or do you have an agenda?  The problem I have with religion is that many use it to justify all sorts of behaviour like violence, bullying, conceit, condescention and complacency.

      Something that sciences like medicine would never do right?

      Isn’t that the point of this Punch piece?

      As for God being a ‘magical being’ that is vengeful, well, isn’t that for the many who haven’t made it to your level of revelation.  Don’t hate them. It’s good for them and more importantly it’s generally good for you.  I.e. the enlightened like you won’t get clubbed by the ignorant.  The question this Punch piece poses though, is how many of us are now remaining ignorant.

    • PaulB says:

      04:10pm | 14/11/10

      Sorry Simon, but no matter how you obfuscate it with intellectual fig-leaves, christanity still stands or falls on the basis of unwavering belief in a series of improbable events that cannot now be proven beyond the realm of faithful belief.  Anything other than that and it is no longer Christianity but something else.  Oh, and the poster was quite right.  The Bible is an underwhelming historical document.  Its prestige within history derives from being about all that was left after early christians set out to destroy as much ancient record as they could in order to make their story the only available historical narrative.  The Alexandria Library comes to mind here.

    • PaulN says:

      09:54pm | 15/11/10

      See PaulB, you say ‘improbable’ but it’s reported in so many sources in and outside the bible that you are flawed in saying that. Reported by different people from different regions with no relation you can’t make that claim.

      See you don’t like it because it’s radical. Look at the sources of ‘Alexander the Great’, people believe he existed, yet there are about 100 times the amount of documents in reference to Christ and they were written much sooner. Paul’s letters to the early churches can be dated to within 10 years of Christ’s resurrection. The first documents in reference to Alexander were written over 600 years after he lived!

    • Rita says:

      08:57am | 15/11/10

      ‘Ignorance is more concerning than religion’.
      Probably true.  Spain was the first country to ban slave trade.

      As for our political leaders? They are silly because they are silly, not because they are religious or not.
      Julia’s atheist theology should not be emphasized in public in the country where a monarch is the head of Church and State. Afterall, any PM of Australia is supposed to represent us all, regardless of faith or lack of it.

    • Dave Sag says:

      09:25am | 15/11/10

      I urge those who seek to define the Christian Bible as an historical document to cast their eyes over this fabulous infographic that documents in vivid detail all of the internal contradictions in that ever-so-holey book.

      http://www.project-reason.org/gallery3/image/105/

      The Lord of the Rings is far more self-consistent than this book, and yet, to my knowledge, no-one goes door-knocking to promote belief in Orcs, Hobbits or Magic Rings.

      A side thought: Can you imagine the uproar if our PM declared she was a Pastafarian and insisted that parliamentary sessions begin with a steaming hot bowl of the Flying Spagetti Monster’s most blessed noodly appendages?

    • Richard says:

      10:25am | 15/11/10

      Of course there are contradictions in the bible, it was written by dozens and dozens of authors of hundreds and hundreds of years. And when these writers were recording their histories, they had no idea that some council would come along and gather them all up into a single book.

      The Lord of the Rings was written by a single author, over a handful of years~ why oh why do people persist in trying to refute the bible as a historical document? What about Josephus, what about Tacitus, what about the Dead Sea Scrolls? Something doesn’t stop being a historical document just because a whole bunch of people don’t like what it says.

    • Danny B says:

      02:38pm | 15/11/10

      Richard,

      That’s right.  It stops becoming a historical document when it can’t be proved.  Show me evidence.

    • Danny B says:

      02:38pm | 15/11/10

      Richard,

      That’s right.  It stops becoming a historical document when it can’t be proved.  Show me evidence.

    • Fabrizio says:

      11:57am | 11/01/11

      Wait, weren’t the scriptures supposed to have been the direct word of God?

      Or am I confusing this story with the mormons..?

    • Elphaba - ain't no sunshine... says:

      09:30am | 15/11/10

      Ignorance is not the problem.  It’s assumption of ignorance.  Both sides, atheist and religious, assume the other is ignorant because of an opposing viewpoint.

      We should be encouraging constant, unwavering questioning of all beliefs, and lack thereof.  Single-minded belief is a dangerous thing and blind faith in one side of the story (either side) is a bad idea.

    • True Believer says:

      10:48am | 15/11/10

      Elphaba: I agree that whilst searching one must indeed seek diligently and examine things to the extent we are able with our limited human capacity. However, I assure you when you find the treasure it is not “blind faith” - as the lovely hymn written by the ex-slave trader goes - “once I was blind, now I see.” I can echo his words.

      Some mutual respect on both sides in these discussions would be nice to see though I totally agree with you on that. :0)

    • True Believer says:

      10:48am | 15/11/10

      Elphaba: I agree that whilst searching one must indeed seek diligently and examine things to the extent we are able with our limited human capacity. However, I assure you when you find the treasure it is not “blind faith” - as the lovely hymn written by the ex-slave trader goes - “once I was blind, now I see.” I can echo his words.

      Some mutual respect on both sides in these discussions would be nice to see though I totally agree with you on that. :0)

    • True Believer says:

      10:48am | 15/11/10

      Elphaba: I agree that whilst searching one must indeed seek diligently and examine things to the extent we are able with our limited human capacity. However, I assure you when you find the treasure it is not “blind faith” - as the lovely hymn written by the ex-slave trader goes - “once I was blind, now I see.” I can echo his words.

      Some mutual respect on both sides in these discussions would be nice to see though I totally agree with you on that. :0)

    • Grumpy says:

      10:54am | 15/11/10

      Cant we all just get along? :’( <3

    • JulesG says:

      12:19pm | 15/11/10

      Wasn’t it ignorance that spawned religion?

      ‘And what about the claim that economic reform and climate change are decidedly secular issues?  That appears arbitrary and ill-founded. It is very clear that faith has contributed to and shaped, in both good and bad ways, huge social movements throughout centuries. One can immediately think of the fight to end slavery, 18th Century British social reform and the Civil Rights movement in the States, the growth of education and development of hospitals. We could go on.’

      Non of these social milestones had anything to do with religion! They were born out of conflict, war and financial imperative

    • Reg says:

      12:40pm | 15/11/10

      I just want to know why Simon needed to use sarcasm to attach his argument to the coat-tail of John Fitzgerald Kennedy. For I assume it is sarcasm, given JFK’s apparent disregard for certain religious rites and in light of his practical war-time experience. Why do we have to flip-flop between sarcasm and forthright opinion or statement? It’s such a weak and unworthy Australian habit.  Please stop it.

      “Just another one of those dumb religious political leaders.” WTF are you pretending to say?

    • Dazeddazza says:

      12:46pm | 15/11/10

      No Grumpy, we cant all “get along”.    While we have “christians”  who continue to push religion down our throats in weak pathetic attempts to justify their beliefs, we will never become truly free of their ancient thoughts.  Simon “Smart” derides more intelligent and erudite writers than he as “Atheist schtick” spokespersons.    My guess is that Mr Smart also believes in Intelligent Design.    Enough of the religious “schtick”.   
      ..

    • TheRealDave says:

      12:51pm | 15/11/10

      The Bible is as historically ‘robust’ as it was designed to be, by vote and by decree many years after the fact. Actual factual history - Christianity from the ground us is/was a manufactured religion spearheaded by the Emperor Constantine as a method of controlling the rapidly disintegrating and corrupt Roman Empire. Every aspect of Christianity was ‘borrowed’, a far more polite way of saying stolen, from various pagan religions before it. Pray tell why you would fail to address, or even publicly recognise this issue? Well, we all know why you wouldn’t want to address an issue that would undermine your entire faith, but I digress….

      Saying the Bible is ‘Historically Robust’ is akin to starting a religion based on the teaching of the Andrew Bolt. Sure, he scatters the odd fact or two amongst his columns, but from the ground up its constructed for a particular viewpoint. As is the bible. The old testament sure, a historical document through the ages describing Jewish life, the people, their history and its odyssey through the ages, the New Testament - yeah, nah. When the people who were originally the villains of the piece are recast a few hundred years later because they are running the ‘conference’ where your delegates are sitting around constructing your religion for you it kinda throws the odd shadow of doubt or two to anyone with a modern education who’s been taught to think for themselves.

      And therein lies the crux of the matter. Education. Education is what is killing off Christianity. Not as they would have you believe in advancing technology or lack or social morals or what not. Simply education. We are smarter, we are asking more sensible questions, we are making our own decisions. Organised religion, in this case Christianity, is another control method on the populace, thats what it is specifically designed for, thats exactly what Constantine wanted when he helped create it and is the most lasting legacy of Ancient Rome we still have with us today.

      Thankfully, modern western democracies have managed to separate Church and State, but the church would dearly love a return of the status quo hence their push into politics of late.

    • Ross says:

      01:03pm | 15/11/10

      Actually, the books of the New Testament were formally approved at the third Council of Carthage in 397. However, the NT books were read and distributed as scripture by Christians and the early church long before then.

    • MrMac says:

      01:36pm | 15/11/10

      The books - gospels - were in circulation for a long time, in various forms, and versions, and there is a view those that were most popular were the ones that fulfilled the OT prophecies.  Many may have lead to the central story, rather than being written about historical events.

    • Reg says:

      01:39pm | 15/11/10

      I’m sorry. “Ignorance is more concerning than religion.” What a peculiar headline. The first image it calls to mind is the Indian truck drivers driving all night on rough roads in trucks without headlights, with the absolute knowledge that if their God intends them to die they will crash and burn. If not, the load will go through. The same reason some people wander in the traffic.

      I’d have to ask, “For whom is it more concerning?”  For most religious, being concerned about their religion is the last thing they worry about. They are certain they have a firm grasp of the business. Fact or ignorance about the after-life doesn’t enter into it. So I can only interpret the headline to mean that those who are not religious, are ignorant. Ignorant of what? Not knowing about nothing?

      I like the “God of the Gaps” image. If we knew absolutely nothing we could say God did it. But if we knew everything, we could say either, YES, God did it, or YES, God did not do it. Either way we still could not say with certainty that God gives a stuff, unless we asked the finite Him. Religion has ignorance at its core.

    • doG says:

      01:55pm | 15/11/10

      True Believer - mutual respect???  your religion and others continue to spread lies, falsities, mistruths and sell it to children (and others) as fact?  Then you want respect?  yeah right!  We would be outraged if a school taught kids that 1+1=3, yet we accept schools teaching kids that there is a god?  Athiests need to move from being apologists and respectful to actively highlighting the evil consequences of these lies.  No respect from me at all - EVER!

    • True Believer says:

      03:54pm | 15/11/10

      doG:

      Oh dear you do have a problem. I guess you are one of those folk who dislikes a whole race because one person offended you. Your gross generalizations are not a very helpful way to discuss anything.

      My faith does not spread lies my friend, it is just that you and others bigoted as you seem to be cannot accept that there are some things which are deeper than human understanding.

      You have zero proof there is no God - there is more proof for a Creator than for an accident such as the big bang. Bit like believing two clunkers crashing will produce a Mercedes Benz.  If you are happy to accept that you are the result of an accident rather than the Living God my friend that is absolutely your choice, a God given right in fact and I respect it.  I just ask that you and your ilk will respect my right to my faith.  We can surely agree to disagree without being disagreeable??

    • Chris L says:

      06:40pm | 16/11/10

      The movement of celestial bodies and their chemical compositions count as evidence toward a big bang. Of course we have yet to discover what might have preceeded such an event and what may have triggered it, but the evidence does fit the theory.
      If there were a creator I’m not sure what evidence might be found to show that but I have yet to hear of anything that points toward the existence of such a being.

    • True Believer says:

      09:13am | 17/11/10

      Chris L:

      If you wish to believe science as absolute and it makes you feel warm and fuzzy far be if from me to shoot holes in your beliefs. I would point out as science once held that the world was flat and fooled many, including themselves it is not infallible.

      On larger matters however, science lacks the ability to understand many things, that does not mean they do not exist. Hey but you stay there where you feel comfy. don’t be encouraged to take risks seeking beyond human perception. Gosh, you may find out that perception is lacking and civilization as we know it will cease to be! :0)

    • True Believer says:

      09:13am | 17/11/10

      Chris L:

      If you wish to believe science as absolute and it makes you feel warm and fuzzy far be if from me to shoot holes in your beliefs. I would point out as science once held that the world was flat and fooled many, including themselves it is not infallible.

      On larger matters however, science lacks the ability to understand many things, that does not mean they do not exist. Hey but you stay there where you feel comfy. don’t be encouraged to take risks seeking beyond human perception. Gosh, you may find out that perception is lacking and civilization as we know it will cease to be! :0)

    • doG says:

      10:21am | 17/11/10

      True Believer, you really do have a problem.  You point out that we once thought the world was flat - that was a belief that science demonstrated it was round.  Your god is the same - a belief that some fairy controls everything, which science is slowly finding answers for those too.  See it’s not disproving your silly ancient stories, it’s showing that the unknowns do have a scientific explanation after all.  Be brave, dare to imagine that there is no omniscient - you might just find your world ceases to be what you think it is grin  btw science is NOT a belief - we put our faith in facts…

    • True Believer says:

      11:01am | 17/11/10

      doG:

      No problem my end I can assure you. 

      Now on the flat earth theory, it was held as a fact by thinkers of the day. They were proven wrong. Science is a wonderful tool, but a poor master. It is not infallible, even its “absolutes” can be challenged.

      I have the dubious advantage of having been an unbeliever like you, a mind closed to God and His wondrous works. Then through the grace of God, not something humans can manipulate thank goodness, He took away my spiritual blindness and allowed me to see.

      I understand where you are coming from. However, I would encourage you not to go through life blinded by rationalism. Whether you believe or disbelieve in God has no impact on the fact that He does exist and yes, surprise, surprise, because He is God you will not find Him under any microscope. You can however, see what He has created and marvel at its complexities all the more I can assure you when you know Him personally.

      It would be impossible for me to deny God Creator of all exists for I know He is there more certainly than I know you exist. After all, I only know of your existence through some crazy writings here. I have no tangible proof of your existence only the written word. Does that make you a non-person for me?? Not at all, such thinking is flawed, just as yours is about God.

    • True Believer says:

      11:01am | 17/11/10

      doG:

      No problem my end I can assure you. 

      Now on the flat earth theory, it was held as a fact by thinkers of the day. They were proven wrong. Science is a wonderful tool, but a poor master. It is not infallible, even its “absolutes” can be challenged.

      I have the dubious advantage of having been an unbeliever like you, a mind closed to God and His wondrous works. Then through the grace of God, not something humans can manipulate thank goodness, He took away my spiritual blindness and allowed me to see.

      I understand where you are coming from. However, I would encourage you not to go through life blinded by rationalism. Whether you believe or disbelieve in God has no impact on the fact that He does exist and yes, surprise, surprise, because He is God you will not find Him under any microscope. You can however, see what He has created and marvel at its complexities all the more I can assure you when you know Him personally.

      It would be impossible for me to deny God Creator of all exists for I know He is there more certainly than I know you exist. After all, I only know of your existence through some crazy writings here. I have no tangible proof of your existence only the written word. Does that make you a non-person for me?? Not at all, such thinking is flawed, just as yours is about God.

    • doG says:

      01:10pm | 17/11/10

      oh dear, you are that much of a religo freak?  I’m outta here - enjoy your ignorant views of the way the world works and i hope you continue to feel make-believe support from a make-believe vengeful fairy.  Yes, I mock you and your ignorant ilk!

    • True Believer says:

      05:10pm | 17/11/10

      Thanks for you post and interchange. I am sorry your reality is so fragile you must run away when confronted by something you are as yet unable to comprehend. I pray one day you will find the Truth. Till then I wish you well despite your unkind summation of my faith.

    • DaveinPerth says:

      04:23pm | 15/11/10

      “But he’s wrong to think that religious faith is always evidence of leaving one’s brain at the door.”
      Simon, are you saying religious faith IS correct? 
      WHICH religion?
      They can’t ALL be correct can they? Especially when each religious sect states that all the others are wrong and are going to burn in the fiery depths of hell ?
      I’m so scared that I’m going to pick the wrong one!

    • True Believer says:

      09:19am | 17/11/10

      doG

      Yes your are right, it is about faith not human proof. God is above that, but I accept you are apparently unable to comprehend anything beyond the human mind. Be adventurous, look further.

    • Sazz says:

      12:11pm | 19/11/10

      True Believer: God is above that? ... Sounds like a poor excuse for having no evidence of God’s existence. It is much harder for the human mind to comprehend that there is no God, that we may in fact not be here for some great purpose, that we are just a tiny speck of insignificant dust in an infinitely huge universe. God and religion were created to explain the unexplainable - your mind is the one that is closed.

    • doG says:

      07:06pm | 15/11/10

      errr, no!  This is where you and your ilk wink have it all wrong and are blinded.  It’s not proof of the non-existence that is required - that is just downright daft.  Proof of something that does not exist is a complete tautology.  You and your ilk have managed to avoid the requirement of proof for a few centuries - times are a changing!  Accusations of bigotry are awesome mate - keep that up and the rest of the readers will share the same respect for you - none!  and the comment about clunkers and mercs - also demonstrates the ignorance of religos.  I would laugh if your religion wasn’t doing so much damage…..

    • Tory Maguire

      Tory Maguire says:

      08:31pm | 15/11/10

      Punchers it’s come to our attention a large number of comments have disappeared off this post. It wasn’t an editorial decision, we seem to have a technical gremlin. Apologies to those who had comments published that have now vanished.

    • Chris L says:

      06:43pm | 16/11/10

      It was the work of Thoth, the ancient god of literature. He is punishing those who besmirk that other god!

    • Tedd says:

      08:56pm | 15/11/10

      ” sweeping aside thousands of years of scholarly work, reveals a lack of understanding of believers in the first instance, but also of the many non-believing historians who nonetheless consider the biblical text to be historically robust by ancient history standards.”

      These statements are really application of the democratic fallacy, as they do not explain or argue why the thousands of years of scholarly work consider the biblical texts to be “historically robust” or counter the proposition they are not.

      The understanding of believers could be elaborated on, as well as the acknowledging the levels of understanding of non-believers.  Of course, non-believers could be expected to elaborate on their understanding (as had been done in some of the now-vanished posts), as well as acknowledging belief and understanding of it .

      The US study showing atheists understood religions could be acknowledged.

      http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/28/us/28religion.html

    • Luke says:

      08:28am | 17/11/10

      Well done all you posters who have managed to blame religion for EVERYTHING…
      The whole world will die… at least you can feel justified in thinking its all “not your fault”...

    • Judas says:

      12:22pm | 17/11/10

      I suppose that the bible could be considered an accurate historical representation; in much the same way as a personal account of WWI, written in 2010 could be seen as same.

    • Greg says:

      04:00pm | 03/12/10

      Hmm, seems like the debate will continue forever. Not so sure that the atheists are quite so firmly attached to notions like love, righteousness and truth however. But they are always ready to bash the Bible for the simple reason that it contradicts their own notions. For the open-minded, I’d say read the Bible, make contact with God and make up your own mind. Don’t let either the atheists or certain misguided religious fanatics who misinterpret the Bible, make up your mind for you. This is a difficult topic, and people need to approach it with a clear and unbiased mind. As for the PM, she was brought up in a Baptist home, so she is not ignorant of Christian concepts, she is however honest enough now to admit that she does not believe in God. God bless her, maybe one day she will return to her roots. I pray so, as this nation needs transcendentally wise leadership. Human wisdom is one thing, divine guidance another.

    • Phil says:

      11:09am | 07/12/10

      Greg

      No, I don’t bash the Bible because it contradicts my own beliefs, I am quite happy for people to read the book and believe it every word of it. The problem I have is the hidden agenda of those people to “spread the word” - it’s like some basic program that overrides all else. It’s the reason Church and State are *supposed* to be separate. My greatest fear is living under a government run by people whose actions are not dictated by commonsense or reality, but rather by the “rules” they have been indoctrinated with.

      If the atheists of the world could have their own little continent where we couldn’t be bothered by religion, I would move there tomorrow. You would be guaranteed of not being woken up by door knockers on a sunday, for starters.

    • DaveinPerth says:

      07:22pm | 11/12/10

      @Greg -  “Not so sure that…atheists…so firmly attached to…love, righteousness and truth..” Why? As an atheist, I hope that I would be judged (were I to be judged) by my good works and honesty, not by my religious devotion. I think many atheists are in the same boat.

      I label myself an ‘Atheist’ but could also be called a ‘Tea Pot Agnostic’.
      Is there a ‘God’ ? Don’t know. Unlikely, but who can say?

      If there IS a ‘God’, is the Catholic Church likely to be the organisation revealing it? Based on the historical record of their good works and honesty, I seriously doubt it.

      Is there ANY religion that shows signs of being divinely inspired?
      Don’t know, but Christianity, Judaism, and Islam certainly don’t rate on my scorecard. (The ‘Good works and Honesty’ one). Must get around to looking for a good one at some point.

      Might start with “Thoth, the ancient god of literature.”
      Does anybody know if there are any Thothians practising anywhere?

    • Fabrizio says:

      12:20pm | 11/01/11

      Not sure if it’s already been picked up by someone, but my problems with the article started with the title.

      “Ignorance is more concerning than religion”

      Religion IS ignorance. Ignorance of (now) basic scientific facts, ignorance of the historical context in which religions (in this case Christianity) arose, and ignorance of the effects of religion on the well-being of people around the world.

      Religion is simply irreconcilable with scientific validation, and all it has created is unnecessary separation and tribalism throughout the ages. Never mind the teachings that tell us that the animals and the plants of this world somehow belong to us and here for us to plunder.

      At least science has shown us that we are all biologically one and the same tribe, and that the biosphere is suffering due to our increasing presence.

      I certainly know where I’ll get my teachings from.

 

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