Filmmaker Simcha Jacobovici is using and misusing a fuzzy sort of ‘proof’ – the “cluster of evidence” – to claim he may have found the crucifixion nails.

Indiana Jones-style he has fearlessly pieced together the clues and dug out two 2000-year-old nails from a burial cave, which he says could be those that pinned Jesus’ hands to the cross.

Only the truly cynical would point out that the revelations come a) Just in time for Easter and b) Just as Jacobovici releases his documentary The Nails of the Cross.

The 8cm iron nails were originally found near Jerusalem more than 20 years ago, in a box bearing the name ‘Caiaphas’ – the name of the priest who presided over Jesus’ crucifixion, according to the New Testament. Read the news story here.

On the one hand, Jacobovici urges scepticism about his findings. But, he says: 

They’re bent just like the only example of a nail used in crucifixion. They have round heads, they are big enough for the hands. So what you have is a cluster of evidence.

Any one of these things by themselves is meaningless. Put it all together and what you have is a probability. There are no other nails you can say the same things about.

Therefore, they could be the real deal, apparently

I’ve been called a little bit bent. I have a round head. And I’m sort of large. Maybe I’M a crucifixion nail!

Cluster of evidence indeed. I call bullshit on Mr Jacobovici.

The so-called “soft-sciences” are extremely important – we need to be able to theorise about past civilisations, and about human nature in general.

In the social sciences, a “cluster of evidence” is not a common term. But it is sometimes used and you can see how it is a good starting point. A series of striking similarities between geographically disparate peoples might indicate an ancient unity, for example, or a trading relationship. A cluster of evidence can lead to a hypothesis that can then be tested, eventually published, and scrutinised by peers.

But when you have someone like this – who rather than starting the conversation, starts with the conclusion, calls a press conference and watches his “cluster of evidence” prompt headlines such as ‘Crucifixion nails found in tomb’ – it’s just junk science. Without the science bit.

Looking forward to the doco, though.

124 comments

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    • Octavius says:

      01:25pm | 14/04/11

      “I’ve been called a little bit bent. I have a round head. And I’m sort of large. “

      Pics or shut up

    • acotrel says:

      07:15am | 15/04/11

      It all sounds like Raiders of the Lost Ark to me! Could we do a DNA test on the nails, and compare it with the Pope’s?

    • Whatnext says:

      01:27pm | 14/04/11

      Now we wait for the inevitable follow up doco, ‘Cloning Jesus,’ in which residue from the nails is probed for DNA, and a Aryan surrogate is contracted to carry the Second Coming of Christ to term…

    • michael j says:

      02:02pm | 14/04/11

      @Whatnext Thank God for that (excuse the pun ) as the second coming is now very closer,,we don’t need a Great big CARBON TAX because SATAN
      and his army of rejected Angels will be here to Destroy the Earth and the one or two survivors left over from the Rapture,,
      no more worries abut climate change or the 4 billion to die from hunger in 2048,,,,,Although i do question Satan’s motive in destroying the Earth,
      WE Humans seem to be doing a bang-up job without any outside help.,,
      to much thinnen here back to the solar powered 6 pack esky to drink 1 of the 2 stubbies i could afford,,,

    • Freeman says:

      10:54pm | 14/04/11

      Oh man, that would make an exellent movie. a move about the second coming of jesus through cloning, then all that random stuff Michael J speaks of happens.

    • Tory Shepherd

      Tory Shepherd says:

      01:42am | 15/04/11

      Peter goldsworthy already went there - check out ‘Honk if you’re Jesus’. Brilliant!

    • The Original Oz says:

      09:55am | 15/04/11

      @michaelJ - you stated “because SATAN
      and his army of rejected Angels will be here to Destroy the Earth”

      Question - Would there be any chance that Satan is a red headed communist bint??? (the Princess of Lies maybe)

    • Mel says:

      06:10pm | 15/04/11

      Or a mentally challenged thinker who believes that he or she is original?

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      01:31pm | 14/04/11

      Radiocarbon dating of nails? DNA samples on the nail? Dating of the box? Other artifacts found in the cave tomb? There’s a difference between real archaeology and tomb robbing you know…...

    • James1 says:

      02:04pm | 14/04/11

      So Indiana Jones was all a big lie?

      My childhood dreams died today.  Thanks Shane.

    • Seanr says:

      03:08pm | 14/04/11

      Just ignore him James1, Indie was the real deal

    • BMJ says:

      01:34pm | 14/04/11

      Call me cynical but is this just an attempt to discredit science so that people will be more skeptical about the science of climate change. ;-]

    • Super D says:

      03:20pm | 14/04/11

      Well climate science is built upon a “body of work” which is a polite euphemism for a “cluster of evidence”....

      Climate science has done more to discredit science than this shoddy work.

    • Barry says:

      08:47am | 15/04/11

      Super D, what field of climate science do you hold your doctorate in?
      I assume you are appropriately qualified, to have made such a comment?

    • Elphaba says:

      01:44pm | 14/04/11

      How many crucifixions were taking place at that time?  Are they sure the nails don’t belong to Brian?

      There’s no way to prove it, because we have no way of proving Jeebus’s DNA.  So the faithful will worship, and I will say “Meh - ancient nails”.

    • Matt says:

      02:20pm | 14/04/11

      “He’s not the Messiah! He’s a very naughty boy!”

    • Elphaba says:

      02:35pm | 14/04/11

      A Monty Python joke was inevitable, I just wanted to get in first. tongue laugh

      Call me when they find the Holy Gourd…

    • Tedd says:

      02:44pm | 14/04/11

      Matt,

      Monty Pythons ‘Life of Brian’ was not written to poke fun at the story of Jesus the Christ (annointed one; Gk); rather it poked fun at the proliferation of messiahs in that messianic age.

    • big daddy says:

      04:33pm | 14/04/11

      Since you brought it up Elphaba and while we’re on the subject of making outlandish claims, the “Romanes eunt domus” scene from Life of Brian was the funniest thing ever done by anyone . . .  Ever!

    • michael j says:

      11:59pm | 14/04/11

      Well as things have it there were bloody heaps of crucifixions taking place at that time but mostly they ( Romans )would tie you to the cross with a bit of rope saving the nails or railway dog spikes for someone who how had really
      pissed of the local Citizens and it seems Jesus was to have been one of these people, But the problem is anyone who has studied the art of the Roman metallurgist
      will tell you the stuff was much more prized than gold,,remember Rome ruled the known world because of clever militarist tactics and an IRON SWORD,ANY SCRAPS OF IRON like those pulled out of JESUS body to
      remove him from the cross would have gone back into the melting pot for further use,,or is it the finder of this lost treasure saying JESUS was placed in a tomb while still on the cross,,or that the nails? where placed with JESUS body as some sort of keepsake,,,,,,,,,
      but still how long before this historic find is on E.BAY,,,,,,,,,,,

    • Considine says:

      10:13am | 15/04/11

      @Big Daddy - that and the initial introduction of the royal “friend” Biggus Dickus of course. Without Biggus Dickus, the movie would have been played in churches, rather than in lonely soul-less rooms in the heart of Palestine by grieving men seeking him to give their lives some elementary meaning.

      On the other point I believe this to be a far more “messier-anic” age than that could have ever hoped to be.

      Recently I saw the travelling python in the town where it all happened. Quite Spiritual really. Now, where’s the Vodka.

    • Jim says:

      01:45pm | 14/04/11

      Junk science, sure….but what about junk media? Not your piece, Tory…I’m talking about the news channels that picked up this story.

    • Ben81 says:

      02:13pm | 14/04/11

      Dumb stories like this are click magnets, sadly.  It’s all about web traffic and advertising.

    • Simon says:

      02:29pm | 14/04/11

      Keep your eye on ACA and TodayTonight! It will be there, and it will all be Woolworths’ fault!

    • Barry says:

      01:55pm | 14/04/11

      Of course it’s bullshit, but that won’t stop plenty of people being suckered, no matter the evidence, no matter the contradictions. People believe what they want to believe, just look at Tony Abbott and his denial of the overwhelming scientific evidence of climate change in favor of pseudo scientific mumbo jumbo.

    • Erick says:

      02:08pm | 14/04/11

      Congratulations! You have won the Acotrel Prize for bringing Tony Abbott into an unrelated thread.

    • Jim says:

      02:16pm | 14/04/11

      I think he also qualifies for the persephone award by getting everything arse-about.

      Barry - the mountains of evidence are ‘against’ AGW, while the pseudo stuff is ‘pro’ AGW. Geddit?

    • Shane says:

      02:30pm | 14/04/11

      Godwin’s Law needs to be updated for the Punch.

      Article Topic: Grunge Music Scene, Seattle circa 1989.
      Inevitable debate in comments: AGW and Abbott v Gillard.

    • P. Darvio says:

      02:37pm | 14/04/11

      BUT the Christian Bible states Climate Change is crap - and the US House Of Congress confirms this….

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5yNZ1U37sE

      ...as does the head of the Christian Church in Australia…and Tony Abbott is a failed priest….

      I really pity those poor dinosaurs - imagine the Carbon Tax they had to pay after they got off the Ark….4000ppm !!!

    • Ironside says:

      02:43pm | 14/04/11

      The punch’s laws of post dynamics states that

      1.  As the length of a given non political thread increases the chances of a left wing puncher citing Tony Abbott, Climate change or blaming the Howard Government for a current problem in a way completely unrelated to the topic at hand approaches 1.

      2.  The chance that Erick will be the first poster of the day on any given thread is inversely proportional to the chance that he will blame women for any given problem raised in said thread.

      3.  The likelihood of either actorel or Persephone acknowledging the logical flaws in a carbon tax where the total amount of compensation will exceed that of revenue raised decreases in direct proportion to the perceived negativity of a given post towards the Rudd Gillard Government.


      As I come up with more I am more than happy to post them ?

    • Seanr says:

      03:10pm | 14/04/11

      First Erick gets his own post, now acotrel gets her/his own prize, what’s next?

    • Barry says:

      04:03pm | 14/04/11

      Thanks for proving my point Jim. There wouldn’t be any point in me providing you with evidence would there?

      Interesting parellel people are drawing between and Abbott and the Godwins law, are you saying Abbott is Hitler and the Liberals are Nazis?

    • Stephy says:

      04:32pm | 14/04/11

      P. Darvio, the guy’s an idiot. OF COURSE God isn’t going to destroy the earth as he had done. He drowned everyone. He said he wasn’t going to drown everyone again. I hate misquotations of the Bible.


      Those nails probably were used for a cruxifiction. One of the many thousands of cruxifictions to happen. It was a common method of execution. Heck, even Jesus cross was probably reused for another death. Jesus’s nails? unbloodylikely.

    • Erick says:

      04:53pm | 14/04/11

      @Barry - Acotrel frequently compares Tony Abbott and the Liberals to Hitler and the Nazis, just as you have done here. Acotrel also manages to bring his Abbott-bashing into any non-related comment thread, just as you have done here.

      Truly you have earned your award.

    • Jim says:

      04:57pm | 14/04/11

      Go your hardest Barry…I can refute everything you put up. AGW is a myth created by world banks and multinationals to rake in trillions.

    • Barry says:

      05:52pm | 14/04/11

      @Erick, it’s not my fault Abbott is such a ready and obvious example for the point I was making, oh and I didn’t introduce Godwin, I just connected the dots. I couldn’t care less about your obvious and petty grudge against ‘acotrel’, did he hurt your feelings? It’s very interesting that you feel Abbott should be immune from criticism, you don’t wear a brown shirt do you?

    • Barry says:

      05:58pm | 14/04/11

      Jim, you can *pretend* you’ve refuted anything you like, it doesn’t make you right though. However you can start by pretending to refute the weight of scientific opinion detailed here (if you don’t trust wikipedia, just work your way through the referenced documents): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_opinion_on_climate_change

      Extract: “no scientific body of national or international standing rejects the findings of human-induced effects on global warming”

      Anyway, tell me more about this conspiracy. Like how exactly do they profit from this conspiracy, how did they manage to get millions of scientists to co-operate and keep quiet, how do they manage to corrupt all the data which can be independently verified at any time? Why haven’t I heard anything in the media, or are they in on it too? Is everyone in on it? Am I in on it? Why is the whole world persecuting you?

      Hmmmm, you’re not just a troll trying to make deniers look stupid are you? I don’t think Tony Abbott needs any help.

    • Chris L says:

      06:20pm | 14/04/11

      @Erick - the lefties had to beat the righties to it some time. Where are Rosie and Joan anyway?

    • Seano says:

      06:44pm | 14/04/11

      @Erick - I can only assume you have a similar award to hand out for Julia Gillard. I’ll let you work out who it should be named after, shouldn’t be hard to work out.

    • Bruce says:

      07:53pm | 14/04/11

      Barry: No one disputes “climate change” its happenned since the beginning of time. You mean the “human effect on climate change”.  Good troll though !!

    • Barry says:

      09:27pm | 14/04/11

      I guess you missed the part where it said “no scientific body of national or international standing rejects the findings of human-induced effects on global warming”. It might help if you read it a few times.

    • The Original Oz says:

      10:00am | 15/04/11

      “overwhelming scientific evidence of climate change”  Bloody Nora I nearly choked because I was laughing so much. So there are still idiots out there that believe everything that the discredited IPCC pump out.

    • mel says:

      06:17pm | 15/04/11

      Well, well, the mentally challenged original is back again. Lots of blather, very little evidence for what he/she says. Just like there’s very little evidence for these nails coming from a crucifixion (to get back to the original topic).

    • P. Darvio says:

      01:58pm | 14/04/11

      I guess that’s the only evidence they can claim - because there is no actual evidence from the alleged time of the fictitious Jesus person, the only evidence they can claim are 2nd, 3rd, 4th etc etc hand me down stories written decades and hundreds of years after the alleged time of the fictitious Jesus person. Anyone who has done the Police evidence test – where information is passed from the original witness to other people knows that after about the 5th generation the story bares no resemblance to the actual facts.

      I found some rusty nails during a bathroom renovation - does that mean the fictitious Jesus person was nailed to my bathroom walls 2000 years ago?

      When are these religious people going to stop making crap up?

      Just imagine if the fictitious Jesus person was killed via the electric chair -  all Christians would be wearing little electric chairs around their neck…...

    • Erick says:

      02:09pm | 14/04/11

      Do you have a macro key for “the fictitious Jesus person”?

    • Tedd says:

      02:19pm | 14/04/11

      Yep, minimal mention of Jesus in the writings of the contemporary historians of the time, and even then mainly mention of his followers (eg ‘chrestians’; Tacitus) or with primary reference in Josephus when referring to ” ..the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ, whose name was James. ..”.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus#James_the_brother_of_Jesus

      The same passage refers to another “Jesus, the son of Damneus, [who was made] high priest”.

    • Shane says:

      02:28pm | 14/04/11

      Not this again. There’s one born every minute I suppose. The historicity of Jesus has been well documented. Rome’s historian, less than 100 years later, wrote of a man called Christ who was killed during the time of Pontious Pilate, during the reign of Tiberius (Emporor at 33AD). This historian, whose name escapes me, laments the superstition that rose from Christ, a group of people called ‘Christians.’

      Look, I’m as open to the coolest conspiracy theories as the next cat (especially the one about Paul McCartney landing on the moon), but this wackjob ‘Jesus never existed’ theory does more harm than good for the atheist movement.

    • Mumofmany says:

      02:34pm | 14/04/11

      No credible historian denies the existence of Jesus, nor his crucifixion.  The fact that his tomb was empty was also well documented and accepted as historical fact from a variety of sources.  The issue is not did he exist, but what happened after - Christians believe in the resurrection, others believe his body was stolen to fabricate a story of resurrection.  Only the truly ignorant suggest that he never existed, and believing such undermines any anti-Christian argument one might have.  Mohammed also existed, now whether or not he had a revelation direct from Allah or just had a social/political agenda is another question…

    • P. Darvio says:

      02:49pm | 14/04/11

      Quote: Do you have a macro key for “the fictitious Jesus person”?

      What a brilliant idea!! See - applied science and creative thinking always triumphs over Religion.

    • Tedd says:

      02:56pm | 14/04/11

      Shane, there were about 40 Roman historians at the time and shortly after, and none of them made any significant reference to Jesus Christ - most of it was about the followers or, as stated above, what one of the Jesus’s was called.

      there is also confusion with terminology -

      ???????* (Latin transliteration chrestus) means useful.

      ??????? (christus#) means anointed.

      From the times there are around 200 Latin inscriptions with the name Chrestos.  Many of them were slaves or ex-slaves, and not necessary descriptions as useful ones.

      * Xpnotoc/s (if the Greek letters do not transpose)

      # Xpiotoc/s (if the Greek letters do not transpose)

    • Tedd says:

      03:14pm | 14/04/11

      Mumofmany,

      There are no variety of sources for the story of the empty tomb - only the gospels.

      The first bibles - Codex Vaticanus and Codex Sinaiticus - are missing the end of the Gospel of Mark. They end abruptly after Jesus’s disciples supposedly discover his empty tomb – omitting the 12 verses on the appearance of the resurrected Christ – and leaving the disciples exiting in fear.  The Codices leaves an unusual blank space where the verses should be. “.. a very odd way of ending a Gospel,” says Juan Garces, the curator of the Codex Sinaiticus Project.

    • P. Darvio says:

      03:26pm | 14/04/11

      Quote: Mohammed also existed, now whether or not he had a revelation direct from Allah or just had a social/political agenda is another question…

      Well…maybe not - just like the “fictitious Jesus person” (Hotkey Fn FJP) even some Muslim Historians are now saying the Prophet Mohamed probably didn’t exist

      http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122669909279629451.html

      Oh dear – I wonder what happened to this poor chap?

      One can only hope that it doesn’t take another 2000 years of investigation to get the actual facts of the 3 Abrahamic faiths correct. The answer might be very revealing.

    • Tedd says:

      02:03pm | 14/04/11

      Except Jesus is more likely to have been fastened to (stauroo; Greek) various configurations of wood of various shapes, such as a pale or stake (stauros, also Gk)with and without crosspieces*, or X shaped cross; and as likely, or more likely, to have been bound.

      * moreover, the cross pieces were more often at the top, to form a true T, when they were predominantly used in pre-biblical times.

    • To Jesus through Mary says:

      02:12pm | 14/04/11

      You may sneer but I saw an apparition of the Virgin Mary in my buttered toast this morning. I don’t have pictures as I ate the evidence (I was hungry), but I can feel the power of Jesus in my bowels.

    • Erick says:

      02:23pm | 14/04/11

      That could be annoying. After three days, your movements will rise again ...

    • John says:

      02:22pm | 14/04/11

      I’m Caiaphas. And so is my wife.

    • Ironside says:

      02:46pm | 14/04/11

      I’m sure you can get a cream for that

    • St. Michael says:

      10:27pm | 14/04/11

      No, no, we’re from the People’s Liberation Front of Judaea.

    • killerbee says:

      02:23pm | 14/04/11

      I just found a rabbit egg in my garden.
      The Easter Bunny is REAL.

    • Bilby says:

      03:05pm | 14/04/11

      ICB

    • DougB says:

      03:51pm | 14/04/11

      If it is a little brown round egg, that is part of a pile of rabbit “eggs” you just go right ahead and eat it. :D

      Oh and have a toothbrush and garlic mouthwash handy!

    • Aitch says:

      02:28pm | 14/04/11

      Jesus nails. Yeah, right. I’ll be impresed when someone finds the ark on the top of mount Ararat or when Jesus jogs across Sydney Habour. ICB on the f-ing lot of it.

    • Brian says:

      02:33pm | 14/04/11

      Crucifixion?
      Yes. 
      Good.  Out of the door, line on the left, one cross each.

    • Seanr says:

      03:12pm | 14/04/11

      Finally an article I can agree with Tory on ...will have a little whiskey to celebrate tonight.

    • Just Askin' says:

      05:21pm | 14/04/11

      American or Irish?

    • seanr says:

      07:15pm | 14/04/11

      Irish tonight

    • Chris L says:

      10:46pm | 14/04/11

      I recommend Jameson.

    • Seanr says:

      08:05am | 15/04/11

      Agreed Chris L. Though I don’t mind a bit of fine Scotch as well

    • fairsfair says:

      03:34pm | 14/04/11

      Would they not have ripped those nails out to use them again? They were crucifying left right and center back in the day - as if they wouldn’t have claw hammered them right out of his cold dead hands to use on the next person.

    • The Badger says:

      03:50pm | 14/04/11

      All this talk of Jesus got me thinking.
      I don’t care if it rains or freezes, long as I got my plastic Jesus sittin on the dashboard of my car.
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxHSV5sZ0oI

      Does anyone know what the secret of the plastic Jesus is?

    • Z1b says:

      04:53pm | 14/04/11

      Sure,just dont take your pay on christian public holidays and make sure you if you dont work through easter or christmas that you dont get paid ,parasite

    • Kevin says:

      05:12pm | 14/04/11

      What “christian public holidays”?  Xmas and Easter were stolen from the pagans.

    • Stephy says:

      08:22pm | 14/04/11

      Kevin, the DAYS were. Not the events themselves. There’s nothing pagan about Christmas or Easter.

    • Chris L says:

      10:50pm | 14/04/11

      @Stephy - except for the fact that we still decorate a tree and exchange gifts at Yule and the symbols for Spring Equinox are still a rabbit and eggs. If you ignore those factors it’s nothing like the pagan celebrations.

    • Mark says:

      04:27pm | 14/04/11

      I’ve studied ‘The Science’ and I can tell you they’re not nails, the just Great Big New Tacks!

      ARF ARF ARF

    • Libby says:

      10:53pm | 14/04/11

      Love it Mark - absolutely brilliant!

    • bigdaddy says:

      04:29pm | 14/04/11

      In keeping with the scientific credibility of this bloke’s work, why didn’t he just grab a handful of dirt from the tomb and proclaim that some of that dirt had almost certainly at one point been stuck to the bottom of Jesus’ sandal?
      Talk about leaping to convenient conclusions!!!!

    • Stephy says:

      08:23pm | 14/04/11

      Burial tomb. I don’t think Jesus walked into it….

    • Shelly says:

      07:47am | 15/04/11

      @Stephy - but apparently he walked out of it.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      06:07pm | 14/04/11

      It’s big business, the holy relic trade. A holy relic in your church practically guarantees the tourist trade in pilgrims. Normally it’s only minor relics associated with Saints but any holy relic associated with the big man himself gives your church major bragging rights and decent cash donations. Only an infidel would put it on Ebay….

    • The Galah from Hervey Bay says:

      06:35pm | 14/04/11

      Surely posters on this thread can have their jokes without the blasphemy .
      Keep in mind that many posters to Punch are Christians .
      Some of the posts here are way over the line , maybe not where the moderator is concerned , but Christians would find some of these comments offensive.

    • Gordicans says:

      07:05pm | 14/04/11

      Galah, it’s pretty difficult to know what will offend and what won’t offend people who believe in fairy tales.

    • Chinaski says:

      07:16pm | 14/04/11

      Freedom of speech. Hell of a thing…

      Personally I think the commenters have nailed it so far.

      No need to crucify them because they have opinions about religion.

      You’d only be making a martyr of them.

    • Stephy says:

      08:30pm | 14/04/11

      Gordicans, you must have a very sorry imagination. Poor fella, not enough mental stimulation in infancy maybe?

      Chinaski, I’m sorry, but you could do better. If you’re gonna throw some witty albeit offensve comments, I’m sure you could do better. Does no one have an imagination and sense of creativity on this bloody site?

      I agree with Galah. Apparently offending Christians is fine and, according to many on here, actually quite fun. Sad, sad lives they must lead, taking an ounce of happiness from someone elses unhappiness. Christians may believe in “Sky fairies” (so many people, through so many thousand years, all believing in THE SAME SKY FAIRY. Makes you wonder what kind of impression said fairy has left in history to remember him by. Perhaps his wings glowed in the dark?) but that doesn’t make them stupid, gullible, or any less human with any less feelings or intelligence than your average athiest. Play nicely people.

    • Katie says:

      08:35pm | 14/04/11

      Considering some of the comments made about other religions which get posted, you should count yourself lucky.

    • Gordicans says:

      09:30pm | 14/04/11

      Stephy, ironic that your comment is by far rudest and most offensive in the entire comments section.

    • The Galah from Hervey Bay says:

      06:44pm | 14/04/11

      Some of the comment is offensive to Christians . Surely posters can have their jokes without the blasphemy .  I class myself as broadminded but i think the line has been crossed way too much on this thread . No doubt the moderator lets the comment through in line with Punch’s standards of moderation but please consider the Christians who also use Punch.

    • MarK says:

      07:33pm | 14/04/11

      Oh hush.

      Seriously it is only Christians that are getting trashed.

      it is not like Musilims or Islam is copping a pasting.

      Or white Aboriginals.

      Nothing serious like that. Just WASP’s and the odd Catholic.

      Lighten up.

    • Seano says:

      09:29pm | 14/04/11

      Cue the atypical oh they wouldn’t say that about Islam BS. And yet there’s been a tonne of Muslim bashing on this blog all day, but now we have to put up with the pretence from some that no one in our society dares to have a go at Islam. ICB.

      What do you want a free society where people can make comments about Christianity or Islam as has been happening on this blog or do you want censorship?

    • Chris L says:

      10:55pm | 14/04/11

      To be honest, Galah, it is difficult to judge what will be offensive to Christians. Simply saying “we don’t buy the story” will have many Christians in apoplexy whereas many seem to think that telling us we will burn for eternity is ok.

      Best to just grow a thicker skin. Besides, if you’re right and we’re wrong we’ll burn for eternity, isn’t that worth waiting for?

    • Brian's Mum says:

      12:20pm | 15/04/11

      @MarK - Since a goodly number of Catholics are odd, which ones are likely to be the most offended IYHO?

    • Bikinis on Top says:

      07:55pm | 14/04/11

      they are the same type of nails that were used in the old Sydney tramways railway lines in the eastern suburbs prior to the 1961 .The Tram lines used these nails all over Sydney.They can be found everywhere the tram lines were laid,

    • the whisperer says:

      08:02pm | 14/04/11

      Galah, from Hervey Bay,
      You make me sad. You live in my area and you spout crap. What is a christian? A believer in pagan rites, a believer in human sacrifice, a believer in “Drink my blood,” and ” Eat my flesh”? What possible influence could cause a father, mother, or any other guardian of beautiful young life to become even remotely involved in the terrible effect of terrorising children with ” If you don’t do as my religion demands, you will burn in Hell”
      And we, as Australians, permit this to happen every day. To our beautiful children., What a weak and ineffectual group of guardians we have become.

    • The Galah from Hervey Bay says:

      09:16am | 15/04/11

      Whisperer :  Whoever taught you on the facts of Christianity is either an athiest or pulling your leg.
      The symbolic participation in Communion is done in memory of Jesus sharing bread and wine with his disciples at his last supper .
      You place a ludicrous context on Christ’s words ” Do this in memory of me ” simply to ridicule Christianity.
      Further , you attempt to turn children away from church and Christianity with your false analysis of the various denomination’s religious teachings .
      You speak ignorance from an uneducated viewpoint - i suggest you involve yourself in a religious education , particularly Christianity.
      Those beautiful young lives you refer to are even more beautiful within a church and fully understanding the teachings of Christ.

      ” Suffer the children to come unto me. ”  is His invitation to our kids to share in His teachings and His love - without the evil connotations placed on those words by people with a questionable intent to ridicule.

    • The Original Oz says:

      10:14am | 15/04/11

      Oh Yes Galah - The Catholic priesthood have definitely taken care of the “beautiful young lives” haven’t they. Adds some context to your spouting of the phrase “suffer the children to come unto me”. In the modern church it is more “suffer the children WHO come unto me”

      Hypocrites and parasites the bloody lot of you.

    • Luce says:

      11:40am | 15/04/11

      Galah, don’t be fooled. Christianity may claim to follow “the one true god”, however the religious practice and its mythology is made up of a spattering of ideas from other religions. Christmas, Easter, the crucifixion and details about the devil (various names, the story, appearance e.g. the trident and pointed tail etc) are not original to Christianity, they were all adapted from other religions (paganism, roman religion) so as to make conversion more pallatable for those the ruling powers were seeking to take control of. Clearly it worked a treat.

    • The Galah from Hervey Bay says:

      11:46am | 15/04/11

      Original oz :  Wrong pseudonym , you are a long way from being an original oz’s bootlace .
      I do not condone the weakness of pedophilia in anyone , neither does any church , but it involves police , lawyers , teachers , judges , politicians , both male and female , so don’t bother trying to single out priests as being the only profession infected with that scourge.

      It is your own hypocrisy which has become the focus of this debate.

    • The Original Oz says:

      12:24pm | 15/04/11

      Galah - At no stage did I state that the issue was only limited to priests. And BTW - you have no basis to make any comment in relation to my pseudonym

    • Gordicans says:

      03:12pm | 15/04/11

      Galah, your comment regarding the Original Oz’s psuedonym is un-christian and mean spirited.

    • sir ronald bradnam says:

      07:37am | 15/04/11

      rusty nails, that does it for me I believe everything about sky fairies, creationism, heaven, hell this is the proof I have been waiting for.
      see you at church sunday.

    • Barry of Adelaide says:

      08:55am | 15/04/11

      Caiaphas may not be a common name today, but I wonder if there was more than one person called Caiaphas 2000 years ago?

    • Just Sayin' says:

      12:18pm | 15/04/11

      Including you, I personally know of four people called Barry.  And two of you are from Adelaide. So yes, apparently two or more people in one place at one time can have the same name.

    • Luce says:

      10:10am | 15/04/11

      Considering the Romans were performing hundreds, if not thousands, of crucifixions at the time, and that Jesus would not have stood out as anything special compared to the others (his following only picked up years after his death), there is no real reason to presume the nails were part of his execution, or that they were even used for that purpose at all.

      Jacobovici’s cheap point scoring tactics are almost as bad as the Labor government’s.

    • Seano says:

      11:23am | 15/04/11

      I was with you up until this comment on cheap point scoring:

      “Jacobovici’s cheap point scoring tactics are almost as bad as the Labor government’s. “

      Oh the irony.

    • stephen says:

      10:49am | 15/04/11

      Nails ain’t oils, Sol.

    • the whisperer says:

      01:09pm | 15/04/11

      Galah.. You shouldn’t go off because a bloke uses “The Original Oz” for his monicker. Maybe he’s just of the mind that he shares old Aussie principles. Similarly to your use of ‘Galah’, which I think describes you perfectly. In the Aussie sense. You repeat, parrot fashion, all that garbage that the priests, vicars, bishops et al have shoved down your naive, ignorant throat and into your tiny little brain. Face up to life and admit that, as history has proved time and time again that the church is a sanctuary. For child molesters and conmen. And insecure gullible fools

    • the whisperer says:

      01:09pm | 15/04/11

      Galah.. You shouldn’t go off because a bloke uses “The Original Oz” for his monicker. Maybe he’s just of the mind that he shares old Aussie principles. Similarly to your use of ‘Galah’, which I think describes you perfectly. In the Aussie sense. You repeat, parrot fashion, all that garbage that the priests, vicars, bishops et al have shoved down your naive, ignorant throat and into your tiny little brain. Face up to life and admit that, as history has proved time and time again that the church is a sanctuary. For child molesters and conmen. And insecure gullible fools

    • True Believer says:

      03:02pm | 15/04/11

      I see “atheist kindergarten” is out in force.  Amazing how like bees to honey you all become at the name of Jesus. Do you ever have enough nous to wonder why??  It would be funny if it was not so pathetic.

    • The Galah from Hervey Bay says:

      08:13pm | 15/04/11

      the whisperer :  The term , ” original oz ”  , carries the suggestion that the person reflects the nature of a true pioneering Australian with al the goodness that implies.
      The comment made was ill-conceived and blasphemous as is your own .
      My pseudonym , ” Galah ” was a derisive name applied to me by a poster making similar insulting and offensive comments as ” original oz ” .  As an act of defiance , i adopted the derisive label as a reminder to myself that the strength to keep my faith comes from my determination to defend that faith against the ignorance and misplaced anger such as displayed in these columns.

    • the whisperer says:

      03:47pm | 15/04/11

      Did I mention jesus. Some dredged up name from 2000 years ago who may or may not have been a resident of Nazareth. Nup! But you, sadly in need of support, even mythical support, you dredge it up. Do you really believe, you pathetic creature, that there is some supreme being dictating how many children will die of starvation, or aids, or violence in Africa and similar places each year? This loving, merciful god you speak of and bow to while you drink the blood of his “son” and eat his flesh? This “god” who has such a following as to be able to slaughter millions of innocents in his name?  Your belief is not a religion, it is a cult. An evil, overpowering, sick cult. Go away, you and all your adherents. The world would be so much nicer. Just begone!

    • the whisperer says:

      03:47pm | 15/04/11

      Did I mention jesus. Some dredged up name from 2000 years ago who may or may not have been a resident of Nazareth. Nup! But you, sadly in need of support, even mythical support, you dredge it up. Do you really believe, you pathetic creature, that there is some supreme being dictating how many children will die of starvation, or aids, or violence in Africa and similar places each year? This loving, merciful god you speak of and bow to while you drink the blood of his “son” and eat his flesh? This “god” who has such a following as to be able to slaughter millions of innocents in his name?  Your belief is not a religion, it is a cult. An evil, overpowering, sick cult. Go away, you and all your adherents. The world would be so much nicer. Just begone!

    • the whisperer says:

      04:10pm | 15/04/11

      Why did I get repeated? Mea culpa. If only I had jesus, i wouldn’t make mistakes, would I? You parasite.

    • True Believer says:

      04:17pm | 15/04/11

      the whisperer

      You speak of what you do not know.  You will learn the truth one day just as I did. You are young, there is much you do not understand so I do not take offence.

    • The Original Oz says:

      04:54pm | 15/04/11

      True Believer - You are quite free to believe in your imaginary sky fairies all you want but DO NOT try to ram your hypocritical, child molesting, war mongering, murdering faith down the throats of people who actually have a brain and a fair sense of reasoning. If you must preach then preach to the rest of the cultists that believe in your sky fairy and leave sensible people alone.

    • True Believer says:

      10:38am | 16/04/11

      The Original Oz

      You atheists are such a sad lot. You know nothing you trust nothing, you insult what you do not understand - you rant and rage against Christianity and piously think that is not trying to ram you atheisim, your religion, which has zero foundation, down the throats of believers.  Pathetic, ill-informed and rude.

    • Chris L says:

      10:49pm | 16/04/11

      @TB - I’ll agree that certain commenters are being more than a little rude and confrontational, but I would like to point out that you don’t have atheists knocking on your doors or shouting at you from street corners or stopping you on your way to the train station. You also don’t have to worry about laws that make no sense except to appease atheists. Indeed atheism (you know it is not a religion so I ask you stop lying about that) is not being rammed down anyone’s throat.

    • True Believer says:

      03:27pm | 17/04/11

      ChrisL
      Thank you for you comment.  I doubt very much the people “knocking on your door” are Christian. More likely Mormon, Jehovah’s Witnesses or other cults -,they equally unwelcome at my door, although, knowing they are mislead I try to be courteous to them, whilst pointing out that they are not Christian.

      That is the problem with atheism, it does not diffentiate as it does not know the difference.  It generalises and thus errors in its “judgements.”

      As for atheism being a religion. Well these people have a belief system, that is, “God does not exist” - they have no proof of this, ergo they believe by faith - a religion.

      I do not have a “religion” - by the Grace of God I know Him, His Son Jesus and His Holy Spirit. This not because I am “good or righteous” but because after wandering in the dark valleys of unbelief and atheism I accepted His invitation of Life and came to know the Truth - Jesus said “I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father but through me.” 

      I am so glad He invited me to His Life. I wish it were so for all. But we each must choose our path. Some lead to life, many lead to death.

    • Chris L says:

      07:59pm | 17/04/11

      @TB we also don’t believe in the Easter Bunny. Do you believe that takes faith as well? Do you believe in the Easter Bunny?

      It doesn’t take any effort to not believe something, unless there is overwhelming evidence for it, in which case it becomes wilful ignorance and I expect that would require effort. Until there is some evidence for one or more supreme beings I don’t see why believing in them would be a default position for anyone.

      I agree that I don’t have indepth knowledge of each splinter group. To me, anyone who believes that Jesus was a god is a Christian. I’ll understand if you have different criteria, but I’d be curious to know what that is.

    • True Believer says:

      07:14pm | 18/04/11

      ChrisL

      Really you need toget your facts right - if you cannot understand the difference between a cult and Christianity what gives you the right to make any comment at all?  As with most atheists/unbelievers, you rant and rage and do not even have the facts right, and you want me to believe you know what you are talking about??

      For your information Mormons and JW’s are not Christians - neither of them believe Jesus is the Son of God as He said He is. They mention Him but not as He truly is - one is only a Christian if one follows Jesus as the Son of God.

      These are money making man-made cults.
      Come back when you are better informed.

    • Chris L says:

      08:40pm | 18/04/11

      “if you cannot understand the difference between a cult and Christianity what gives you the right to make any comment at all?”

      From Oxford Dictionary: Cult
      “a system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object”

      It does get a little difficult to tell them apart.

    • True Believer says:

      09:18am | 19/04/11

      ChrisL

      Yes I can appreciate that an unbeliever would not be able to discern the difference.  I was probably just as ignorant about the difference when I too was an unbeliever.

      This is what makes it difficult to discuss these matter with those who have a mind closed to God - they are lacking a dimension, just as I freely admit I was too when I walked in darkness. Only the Holy Spirit can open the eyes of the spiritually blind, as He did mine. I just hope earnestly for you that you will accept Jesus free gift of Truth and Life and know how much more there really is to being human. I am so glad I did, but it was not because I was special, or a “good” person, or that I had read the Bible (which I only did after I gave my life to Him) or that I belonged to a denomination - no it was my willingness to admit I fell short of the Glory of God as we all do and ask His forgiveness and asked Jesus to be my Lord and Saviour.  Then I knew what I had been missing out on for so many wasted years.

      It is not about demoninations or man-made doctrines it is about the Person of Jesus,  I can assure you, I was a sceptic but that day I was left in no doubt as to the fact that God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit live and love us all, but we have to believe. That is all He asks.

      He loves us sufficiently to have sent His Son Jesus so we may be free in Him.  A mystery I acknowledge to the carnal mind, but so real once the scales are removed from one’s eyes.

    • the whisperer says:

      06:40pm | 15/04/11

      Thank you ” Oz”, you sound like my kind of person. I sometimes wonder what affects these idiots who seem to want to believe that their actions are pre-ordained. Whackos with a licence. Is there any way of convincing them that they are delusional? Perhaps a month or two with a molesting catholic (or some other denomination)  priest might do the trick. Then again, that might be what they crave. How sad that so many people, in responsible positions, believe this abhorrent behaviour is okay. Then again, that is the basis of their belief, isn’t it. Their invented “founder” surrounding himself with blokes, who never mention a connection with normal sexual relationships. Even the fiction exposes them. And ‘suffer little children’? You do the research.  And true believer, whatever that means,  I am not young. I’ve seen your dreadful effect on murder, rape, pillaging, and disposession,
      and ‘crusades’. What part of all of this do you not understand, or do you just say, “In the name of our merciful god’?  How very sick—how very sad. Go away, and take your pagan rites and your cannabalistic blood drinking and your flesh eating with you. And if you are concerned about the children who are starving, go and help. As I did, But you are too busy worshipping a statue. What a sad, simple con trick. But you love it because it gives you an out, right?

    • Gordicans says:

      08:30pm | 15/04/11

      The capacity of humans to believe anything at all is quite remarkable.  The only explanation is that to do so provides a natural selection advantage, hence the belief in a god (or more correctly believing in a god may be associated or connected to another trait which provides a natural selection advantage). 

      Ironically, Christians will believe in their god for which there is no evidence, but not believe in natural selection where the evidence is overwhelming.

 

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