ICB: Does Islam sanction beheadings?

Jon says:

01:49pm | 07/04/11

Yes, I lived there for 2 years. I never wanted to stay and watch a beheading or stoning’s but it did happen. Guest workers from third world countries are treated like slaves and many cases are beaten by their Saudi sponsors or not even paid. There are no human rights there for these people and even Westerners have to be careful.

mickijo says:

01:53pm | 07/04/11

Geez! Here in Oz, they think footie is exciting. We used to look at the paper to see what movie is on that night, over they they can look up who is getting the chop. They must think life in Oz is so dull when they immigrate here, it must bore them -er-stiff!

Tombowler says:

02:09pm | 07/04/11

I know. Such a crock of shit.

Heres how you solve the argument once and for all as to the Islamic prediliction for violence:

1) Number of countries identifying as Muslim experiencing serious social upheaval, civil war, genocide etc vs the mean average of all nations

2) The number of terrorist murders commited in the name of islam against those comitted in the name of christianity, hinduism, buddhism and atheism (including abortion clinic bombings etc) expressed as a
‘per capita’

3) The mean GDP and percentages of peoples living below the poverty line in nations identifying as muslims against those in non-muslim nations

4)Comparisons of other facets of society (employment rates, innovation, military v social justice spending etc)

I haven’t conducted this study but if I find the time I will: I would suggest, prima facie, that the study will point empirically towards islam being a factor in: terrorist acts, poverty, war, lack of innovation and generall crapness.

“Oh” says retarded puncher #7 “but what if we were to include all the atrocities the christians and hindus were responsible for in past centuries?”

“Well” says I, lighting a cigarette and smiling cynically, “all that would prove is that Islam is a religion that has been unable to reconcile itself with the post-enlightenment world and the values that we now identify has being universal rights or wrongs”

Call me a social imperialist all you like- look at the figures,

Tory I call res ipsa loquitur

Erick says:

03:16pm | 07/04/11

For some factual analysis, with references, try this link:

http://www.meforum.org/713/beheading-in-the-name-of-islam

Doh says:

03:52pm | 07/04/11

I believe you have just called bullshit on Tory.

Tony of Poorakistan says:

04:23pm | 07/04/11

Tombowler

good post. I’m surprised it was published. There seems to be a pro-muslim stance in the Punch

There is no doubt that countries that are governed under Islamic law do sanction decapitation.

Tombowler says:

04:42pm | 07/04/11

Well Tory, the question isn’t “does the Quaran sanction beheading” it’s “does Islam”

My Islamic law studies are a bit hazy, but there is the doctrine “ijhema”. The doctrine is surmised as follows: “What a council of learned muslims will hold to be correct will never be wrong”.

This “consensus” doctrine actually adopts into Islam what is decided by the various councils accepted by each school of Islam. The whole ‘ursury’ thing, the muslim non-acceptance of smoking and a host of other facets of Islam have been incorporated through the consensus doctrine.

Looking at the muslim world one has to conclude that there is enough consensus amongst the ‘learned’ (interpreted as powerful clan chiefs so now read heads of state, islamic councils etc) that beheading is an acceptable tactic so that it is perfectly acceptable and correct to say that it is islamic practice for the middle-eastern schools of Islamic scholarship.

Islams own institutions of determining what is true practise and what is merely biblical chest-beating by definition reaches this conclusion inevitably.

Zac says:

04:54pm | 07/04/11

Tory,

Like I am NOT a fan of Atheism you are not a fan of religion or Christianity (I love to be politically incorrect)  to be specific. And that’s fine. We are after all living in Christian democracies (you have a lot to thank and like). And now to your question “Does Islam sanction beheading?” Tell me this Tory, did the Islamic prophet behead people? Yes he did. Did he promote violence? Yes he is did. What matters to me is NOT what is said but what is DONE. Here is an example (what matters is the substance and when it comes to Islam, leftists don’t want to hear it coz it doesn’t suit their utopia)

http://www.faithfreedom.org/features/news/a-jewish-family-massacred/

Hamish says:

04:58pm | 07/04/11

Tory, if Islam doesn’t sanction beheading why do people who consider themselves more Islamic than everyone else (e.g. Saudi Arabia, Iran, various terrorist groups, etc) behead people all the time and/or stone them? Are you saying you know more about Islam than them?

Zac says:

05:18pm | 07/04/11

Hamish,

Please don’t ask Tory hard questions. Leftist jurnos are not trained to ask hard questions or questions that doesn’t suit their ideology. It is all about “Peer Reviewed Beliefs” (PRD) or they will be excommunicated from the clan (I mean Canberraistan).

Hamish says:

05:28pm | 07/04/11

Zac, I find it humourous that an atheist leftie feels she knows more about Islam than, you know, Islamic people. I can just imagine her explaining to King Abdullah that actually he doesn’t know what he’s talking about and that he should cease beheading people. I’m sure he’d take her super seriously…especially considering she’s a woman. But I’m sure Islam isn’t anti-woman either. Islam is actually pro everything that Islamic people don’t do (e.g. treat women equally) and opposed to things they actually do (e.g. behead people).

Greg says:

06:00pm | 07/04/11

Pathetic attempt at backpedalling Tory.

Read the article that Erick and I posted a link to. It proves that Islam does sanction beheading, and it quotes the relevant Qur’anic verses.

As for arguing about “interpretation”, the article also gives multiple instances throughout history of how Muslims have interpreted the relevant verses, so your interpretation is not really relevant.

The reason politically correct do gooders such as yourself try to clamp down on discussions about Islam is because the truth eventually comes out.

Not a “a slagging litany of evil”, but a peer-reviewed academic analysis, written by a professor of history at a recognised, first world tertiary institution.

In your rush to slag off at some Liberal MPs, you have been left with egg all over your own face, and deservedly so.

So do you feel pretty stupid right now, or are you completely shameless?

nick says:

06:29pm | 07/04/11

What would you know about Muslims, Helen? Just because you lived there somehow qualifies you as an expert? Tory is a professional student and her infinite knowledge of Islamic culture by way of her university lecturer has already been kind enough to explain that beheadings are virtually unheard of in the Muslim world…

me my mo says:

06:29pm | 07/04/11

“By its very nature as an ancient text in another language, the Koran’s stance is murky.” Argh. If you had done a little bit of reading, Tory, and you would discover that Islamic ideology comes form more than just the Koran. You would have done better had you left the question open.

G. David says:

06:33pm | 07/04/11

N.J. Dawood’s Penguin Classics translation of the Koran has at least one relevant passage:

“When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield strike off their heads.” (Sura 47, Verse 4)

Judging by his personal example, Mohammed, the founder of Islam, appears to have taken that command literally.

Nick says:

06:33pm | 07/04/11

Tory Says: “As it happens I am not a fan of any religions, and I think some of the worst atrocities and many ongoing atrocities are done in the name of Islam.”

But god forbid you should write a story about “the atrocities committed in the name of Islam”. That could be deemed politically incorrect… far better to play the ‘racist card’ on anyone who dare to do so… I call double bullshit on your bullshit call…

Zac says:

10:00pm | 07/04/11

Hamish,

Can’t agree more. If it was my daughter (and I have few)  who had written this utter absurdity (being a women she should thank Australia for giving her the opportunity) I don’t know how I would feel (I like all that free speech & debates). The problem is many in media and especially the ones in Canberraistan actually believes this. Imagine if few of these people get into power with a conviction like this, our country and society is in danger - an example of this is the WaterMelons (Greens) who wave Hamas flags. Then again what can we expect from media who thinks (readers are fools) they are the source of all wisdom and knowledge but reading comments I think we still have hope.

acotrel says:

08:22am | 08/04/11

Australia is not governed under Islamic law, and is never likely to be.  We have Muslims in Australia, do you suggest we send all non-white races back where they came from? GET OVER IT!

P. Darvio says:

09:01am | 08/04/11

Quote: Tell me this Tory, did the Islamic prophet behead people? Yes he did. Did he promote violence? Yes he is did. What matters to me is NOT what is said but what is DONE.

Does Christianity sanction beheadings…..??

“In one of the best-known stories of the Old Testament, David, a shepherd boy and the youngest of eight sons, offers to fight Goliath, a giant Philistine warrior who was threatening the Israelites.

Armed with a slingshot, five stones, and a belief in God, David advances toward a dismissive Goliath, and hits him between the eyes with a stone. As Goliath falls, David draws out the Philistine warrior’s own sword and beheads him. When the Philistines see their once-invincible warrior decapitated, they panic and flee. David carries Goliath’s head triumphantly to King Saul’s court in Jerusalem and keeps the sword as a spoil of war. “

http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=84592&page=1

“….most early Christian literature (except for the gospel of Mark) makes a point of describing Jesus as a descendant of David. Because of this Christians have tended to idealize David as a leader and as a person, but this occurs at the expense of the text itself. The stories of David are unequivocal that he was far from perfect or ideal and he did many immoral things. David is a complex and interesting character, not a paragon of virtue.”

http://atheism.about.com/od/biblepeopleoldtestament/p/David.htm

(Sorry for quoting from an ATHEIST website – I just couldn’t help myself…)

OFF WITH HIS HEAD !...need I say anymore about Christianity and decapitations…..Oh Dear…..

What is it with the 3 Abrahamic faiths and cutting peoples heads off?

P. Darvio says:

09:40am | 08/04/11

Does Christianity sanction beheadings….?

“In 2006, in an unprecedented move, the United Nations mounted a covert operation to capture or kill Joseph Kony. A squad of U.S.-trained Guatemalan Special Ops soldiers set out into Congo’s Garamba National Park, a longtime LRA refuge and the scene of the 2008–2009 Garamba offensive. Trained in jungle warfare and accustomed to surviving in the bush for long stretches, the Guatemalans were equipped with M-16s and the latest special-operations technology. But they were no match for Kony and his child warriors. Five LRA soldiers were killed. But not one of the Guatemalans survived. The LRA fighters slaughtered them all and, according to one account, beheaded the commander”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord’s_Resistance_Army

Yep..the good old Christian Lord’s Resistance Army…fighting for Jesus, the Ten Commandments and the Pope….and cutting UN Soldiers heads off to prove the point.

Yes Jesus loves you…...

Going to Hell for this one says:

10:21am | 08/04/11

Tory - would that be because it (Islam) is a “slagging litany of evil.” ?

Hamish says:

10:28am | 08/04/11

P. Davio, there’s no doubt Christians have beheaded people. No one suggests they haven’t. However, Tory’s contention is that Islam doesn’t condone beheadings which is quite simply factually untrue in both theory and practice. If you want to debate the point you can. There’s probably plenty of anti-Christianity threads you could post on where what you’re talking about might actually be relevant.

P. Darvio says:

11:19am | 08/04/11

Quote: Tory’s contention is that Islam doesn’t condone beheadings which is quite simply factually untrue in both theory and practice. If you want to debate the point you can. There’s probably plenty of anti-Christianity threads you could post on where what you’re talking about might actually be relevant.

M’mmm nice try but….

???? – where do I say I agree with Tory or even imply it? All I’m pointing out is that Christianity has a similar history as Islam, both ancient and recent, “in practice” (ie the LRA) and in some cases “in theory” (ie “…Christians have tended to idealize David…” – the Decapitator) and its not much, if any, different from Islam, and that people of faith, especially those of the 3 Abrahamic faiths have a habit of killing/murdering for their respective faith and use their respective religious texts as the basis/justification for killing/murdering. That is a fact of all religion.

I’ll ask the question again.

“Does Christianity sanction beheadings?”

Hamish says:

11:35am | 08/04/11

Um, P Darvio, I think it’s pretty obvious that I was saying they both do. In which case Tory is wrong. That was my point.

My other point was that your post about Christianity is irrelevant. Which it clearly is.

Hamish says:

03:34pm | 08/04/11

Just on my last post P.Darvio, while both Christianity and Islam do sanction beheading in certain circumstances, there is also certainly a reasonable argument that Islamic holy warriors are actually supposed to cut off infidels heads. So in this sense one might argue The Koran and Islam actually encourage beheading at least among practicing jihadists.

True Believer says:

03:49pm | 08/04/11

@Hamish

I don’t know where you get your information from - Christians follow Jesus (true Christians that is, not those in name only - there is a difference) and nowhere in the New Testament is there comment about beheading being ok.

True Believer says:

03:49pm | 08/04/11

@Hamish

I don’t know where you get your information from - Christians follow Jesus (true Christians that is, not those in name only - there is a difference) and nowhere in the New Testament is there comment about beheading being ok.

P. Darvio says:

03:59pm | 08/04/11

Quote:  “…there is also certainly a reasonable argument that Islamic holy warriors are actually supposed to cut off infidels heads”

FYI - Christians historically call non-believers “infidels”, Muslims historically call non-believers “kafir”.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infidel#Christian

“Christians generally now avoid using the term infidel”……m’mmm..I wonder what the real reason is?

Christians on these blogs are historically obliged to call atheists “Infidels” – they should do so!

Hamish says:

04:36pm | 08/04/11

True Believer, you are right. I don’t debate that. However, Christians have in the past used beheading as a form of punishment which suggests that Christianity does not rule out beheadings just that it doesn’t encourage them. Islam, it could be argued, encourages beheading of infidels. There is at least one passage which explicitly says you should behead infidels. Which makes Tory even more wrong really.

I totally agree that Christ was a man of peace while Mohammed was a conqueror.

Thanks for the language lesson PD. Now we’ll both know what the jihadists are yelling into the camera before they chop our heads off.

Mensur Cehic says:

03:52pm | 09/04/11

@ Tombowler

You forgot to mention: The precentage of nations (in the so-called Muslim World) with WESTERN-backed dictators. When you LEARN to ask yourself such a question, you won’t have a guy like me take a big BOSNIAN dump on your Christian-Right “argument”. 

Here are some stats: 60% of world’s oil reserves are situated in the Middle East. Saudi Arabia holds a large part of it and is the largest oil exporter in the world (no, not the ‘Muslim World’ - THE WORLD). The Saudi ‘Royalty’ is a WAHHABI absolute monarchy, who have dissent at home yearning for democracy. This WAHHABI absolute monarchy is also home to a large majority of the names associated with 9/11. This WAHHABI absolute monarchy has not been invaded, it is BACKED by U.S., U.K., AUS, CAN and other nations who are eager to be afraid (very afraid) of anything that seems Muslim. This WAHHABI absolute monarchy has sent armoured vehicles to help KILL a non-violent uprising of Bahraini people..who rose up for FREEDOM, JUSTICE and DEMOCRACY against another dictating ‘royalty’ which is also BACKED by U.S. (and co.)
It seems, as a(n) (in)famous 20th century African-American FREEDOM activist would say, “the nitty-gritty of the problem, the root of the problem” is YOU. The Western International Power Structure.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0BU9ktQuhw

Speaking of ‘Sphere’. A set of WESTERN-backed dictators in North Africa have been deposed by people wanting to progress away from the indoctrinated natio-“religious”-backward-BULLSHIT that such regimes entailed - and you, Tombowler, have listed the side-effects. The sphere of influence there…is GONE. And it is a matter of time when the WESTERN sphere of influence in Saudi will dissipate. And you are seeing the effects of the DOMINO known as OIL **already** at the bowser because of a fraction of a percent of OIL output halted/disrupted in Libya. Imagine what your wallet will look like when Saudi Arabia sorts out its issues (some of which you have listed as an “Islam”-related problem). Your wallet would be affected, I suppose.
It’s not about Islam, it’s not about beheadings. It’s about the likes of Mr. Bernie Finn propagating FEAR by reminding you all of all that beheading footage conducted by hooded paramilitaries of as yet UNCONFIRMED affiliations.

Jay says:

10:01pm | 07/04/11

Yep, sorry Tory, love your work most of the time, but frankly, you REALLY need to be schooled in Islam and particularly the Koran. Its not racist to be concerned about Islam, its not a race of people, its an ideology - no worse than putting revolutionary socialism or nazism’s values under a microscope…

You and I may both be atheists, but all religions are not created equal. Islam has and does condone beheading explicitly, as well as violence against non believers, murder of apostates, the lower value of women, Jews being apes and pigs etc. Other religions may have had their bad patches once before, but Islam has never deviated from its death-cult at any time in history.

Justin says:

11:13pm | 07/04/11

Surley Tory does not get paid for writing this bullshit, let Tory live under Sharia Law and then see what she writes, thats if she does not lose her head!

Mensur Cehic says:

08:37pm | 09/04/11

Jay,

are you fresh out of a Madrassa?

iansand says:

01:26pm | 07/04/11

Whereas the Christians have gone in for burnings as their preferred method of execution.

TimB says:

01:36pm | 07/04/11

And of course Christians still do that today, don’t they iansand?

I mean, otherwise you wouldn’t have much of a point now….

Oh.

AdamC says:

01:50pm | 07/04/11

Ian Sand, that comment is desperation encapsulated.

dasta says:

02:02pm | 07/04/11

@AdamC. If you didn’t spend so much time spouting crap (I’m talking about everything I’ve seen over the past weeks) you could use it to read the article.
Tory spent fully the last third of the piece on the hostage issue.

dasta says:

02:05pm | 07/04/11

@TimB.
No. they use a rope. (or electric chair, lethal injection, firing squad…....)

Mitch says:

02:06pm | 07/04/11

TimB - maybe you should try Googling ‘Lord’s Resistance Army’.  But obviously Christians aren’t capable of horrific violence and massacres…. 

Or maybe this is a poverty and cultural based issue, rather then a religious based one.

See? I can do it too says:

02:10pm | 07/04/11

And if you hadn’t of spent the last few weeks following him around, ‘badgering’ him, being a pain in the clacker and changing ID’s, maybe he’d be able to concentrate.

AdamC says:

02:13pm | 07/04/11

Dasta, a long time reader and first time responder. It’s nice to see I have fans out there.

Tory’s attempt to address the hostage beheaders issue was too ridiculous to mention. Besides, my point was that, Quranic interpretation aside, sincere, practicing muslims also practice beheading. And, furthermore, actual practice is at least as important in assessing religious attitudes as what old books say people should or shouldn’t do.

Also, I have a serious question, if you would care to answer it. Why, among all the crap I’ve been spouting in the last few weeks, was this the turd you decided to respond to?

Hamish says:

02:28pm | 07/04/11

dasta, she did, but it was crap. There have been plenty of beheadings carried out by Muslims since 2004. And writing off Saudi Arabia by saying ‘weird shit happens there’ is so intellectually sloppy it’s not funny. To begin with, it’s not just Saudi Arabia who conduct beheadings, stonings, etc, and why on earth wouldn’t Saudi Arabia be relevant anway? Speaking to Waleed Aly to get an unbaised view of the Islamic world is like asking Eddie Maguire to pass reasoned comment on the Carlton Football Club. This is one of the poorest of Tory’s generally poor efforts.

iansand says:

02:36pm | 07/04/11

The point is that the autos da fe and burnings were done under the auspices of a holy book, and with the imprimatur of organised religion.

You can find anything in a holy book if you try hard enough.

AdamC says:

02:42pm | 07/04/11

See? I can do it too, I agree. If the Badge, in his/her myriad permutations, wants to blog stalk me, it would be nice if he/she could use the one handle. I mean, what is the advantage of using thinly-disguised alter-egos anyway?

Hamish, it was a very disappointing article. I think there is a genuine debate to be had about religious freedom and toleration in western, multicultural societies. I think that discussion needs to include muslims. But this intellectually barren apologia and ineffectual obfuscation by well-meaning, politically correct advocates, activists and journos like Tory is actually completely counter-productive.

dasta says:

02:46pm | 07/04/11

@AdamC.
A serious question should get a more serious answer than “too much time on my hands today” but that is actually it.
With as much respect as possible others reply to you pretty much as I would anyway but that will never change your position (and to be fair nor will yours change theirs - in fact with all the repetition, reading the religion threads is already getting boring ).
Was @See? I can do it too says: talking to me? There are some real weirdos on here. Terrrifying enough to use a tag in the first place but I’m certainly not using any others.

AdamC says:

04:42pm | 07/04/11

Well, Dasta, I suppose that is a reasonable anwer.

I agree, Ian Sand, you can interpret a holy book in just about any way you like. That is why the actual practice of a religion is at least as important in defining it as the book it gets its inspiration from.

Levi says:

06:48pm | 07/04/11

iansand, a little thing called the ‘enlightenment’ has occurred since christians were regularly burning people. That’s like saying modern practicing neo-pagans are all evil hypocrites because their ancestors in Germania and Scandinavia 2000 years ago practiced human sacrifice. Or that neo-druids or whatever it is the celts used to follow are worse than islam because their ancestors practiced head-hunting.

Unfortunately for the world, Islamic medievalism is alive and well, and its right here in Australia too, thanks to our open door immigration policies.

The Badger says:

07:28pm | 08/04/11

adamc
paranoid much?

AdamC says:

01:22pm | 07/04/11

What’s the point of this comment, Badger? That the French like to do the chop (or the coupe, I suppose they would say) as much as the muslims do? Or, at least, they did up until the seventies. (Those Saudis are only 34 years behind the French!)

And I would suspect that our dernier decapitee was not merely gifted with an ‘islamic sounding name’. As you may be aware, Tunisia is an islamic country populated almost exclusively by muslims. I suspect Mr Djandoubi actually was a muslim.

smokescreen says:

01:25pm | 07/04/11

Since the French took decapitation to a whole new level during the French revolution, does that mean that France is an Islamic republic?

Vaunted says:

01:32pm | 07/04/11

Ah yes TB, guillotining murderers is one thing, but when was sawing off the head of a journalist to make sicko video outlawed in France? Inshallah

The Badger says:

01:37pm | 07/04/11

AdamC
I just wanted to see if you were paying attention and you are. Full points to you
PS - your reply to my post had more words than my post.
Good work.
PPS - I now have more words to my posts than you.

AdamC says:

01:49pm | 07/04/11

Badger, isn’t it wonderful that I haven’t unsubscribed to your core online identity?

True Believer says:

01:53pm | 07/04/11

North Korea which says “there is no God” - (does that make it an atheistic country?) publicly beheaded a woman last year for giving away a Bible. All of her family were imprisoned for their “crime.”

The Badger says:

02:05pm | 07/04/11

Either way AdamC
You engage me.

Marilyn Shepherd says:

02:06pm | 07/04/11

Japan had a good policy of beheadings until after WW11.

Drone attacks from 20,000 feet behead and shred.

Why is it that those who think they know something about muslims feel the need to feed their delusional fantasies by believing every numbskull thing stated by yet another racist dingbat.

The west have slaughtered or starved to death millions of Iraqis and Afghans in the last 32 years but we think muslims are violent.

Spare us the tripe.

Now to the old books.

The old testament is the torah, it was proved to be a complete fake centuries ago.  Not a word of it is fact.

Ditto the bible.

Ditto the koran.

Might as well have wars over whether or not the Hogwarts in J K Rowllngs Potter books are more real than the Pratchett mob of discworld people.

But if we want to whine that the koran is an ancient book we have to remember it was written 500 years later than the so-called bible.

L. says:

02:39pm | 07/04/11

“Ditto the koran.”

Ppsstt…Marilyn, I dare you to go to Pakistan and say that.

Then tell me how peace loving they are.

True Believer says:

03:13pm | 07/04/11

@Marylin Shepherd

“The old testament is the torah, it was proved to be a complete fake centuries ago.  Not a word of it is fact.

Ditto the bible”

Your indisputable evidence for this comment is??? Could you please provide the sources? Thank you.

Ryan says:

03:51pm | 07/04/11

@Marilyn Shepherd: “Why is it that those who think they know something about muslims feel the need to feed their delusional fantasies by believing every numbskull thing stated by yet another racist dingbat.”

Just an F.Y.I. Muslim is not a race, so pulling out the tired old race card is pathetic. I do find the hipocracy of your comment even more laughable, especially coming from someone who has been shown on these forums to be a blatant anti-semite.

Stephy says:

04:03pm | 07/04/11

True Believer, check christian forums. I finally accepted your friend request!

Hamish says:

08:15pm | 07/04/11

Marilyn, so I agree, we might as well have wars over Harry Potter instead of stupid religions based on silly old books. That’s why we’re not the ones wanting to fight any wars over religion. Also, I’m not aware the west have starved anyone over the last 32 years…as much as you may believe many women have been brainwashed into starving themselves by the patriarchy.

Tony of Poorakistan says:

04:35pm | 07/04/11

OK, I’m ignorant here. The only one I could think that might come close is Shinto.

hot tub political machine says:

05:00pm | 07/04/11

I was thinking of rastafariansim until I just found out that though rastafarianism is deliberately africancentric and anti-white culture, you are allowed to be a white rasta.

I may have to announce I was wrong - possibly techinically correct, but there seem to be no major religions which are linked to race, though there seem to a few weird ones in this list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_religion

Davi says:

02:04pm | 07/04/11

I think you’ll find that Muslim countries have people that are far fitter than many Christian countries, they’ve survived much harsher persecution throughout their histories and even today collateral damage is OK, as long as they’re Muslim but not OK if they’re UN peacekeepers, or some foreign Christian invading army personnel.

Throwing stones at someone until they’re dead, or hacking at the muscle and bone of the neck would take a lot of energy and a fair bit of tenacity, which is why I propose Christians just aren’t up for it anymore.

Christians have grown rich at the expense of the Muslim, digesting vast oil fields and turning all that vast wealth into plasma TV’s, McDonalds hamburgers, cardiovascular diseases, obesity, premature death and really ugly beach bodies. I just don’t think that your average holier than thou Christian Bigot of Western society has the stamina to stone someone to death or hack through a neck..

I’m just saying..

Twit says:

02:06pm | 07/04/11

It feels like you’re saying that “all religions” are Christians and Muslims. Would Buddhists not be fundamentally opposed to beheadings? I’m sure there are other peaceful religions too.

Christianity + Islam does not = all religions.

Hamish says:

02:36pm | 07/04/11

Twit, what I was trying to say is that people across all religions have beheaded people from time to time. I’m sure at some point in history there’s been a Buddhist who chopped someone’s head off (in fact there have probably been heaps of them). The Chinese Emperors were Buddhist as I understand and they were often particularly brutal. I’m sure a few heads were separated from bodies by them.

However, in practice today most beheadings are carried out by people of the Islamic faith which was the other point I was trying to make.

IvaD the evil Troll says:

02:40pm | 07/04/11

Well, yeah there are ‘other religions’ dah, but we stopped bombing those Commies years ago. Of course we mean no harm to Sheiks or those that eat curry, after all who else would drive our taxi’s? It’s obvious that as a Christian in a Christian nation, I should want to talk about Muslims, after all it is a false religion because my Pastor tells me and all the other kids that it is and if it’s good enough for him to teach that, then it’s good enough for me to repeat it: There is only one true faith in the world, so the argument should never be had in the first place…

True Believer says:

03:19pm | 07/04/11

@Davi

You said “Christians have grown rich at the expense of the Muslim, digesting vast oil fields and turning all that vast wealth into plasma TV’s, McDonalds hamburgers, cardiovascular diseases, obesity, premature death and really ugly beach bodies. I just don’t think that your average holier than thou Christian Bigot of Western society has the stamina to stone someone to death or hack through a neck..”

So tell me - atheists do not eat, make, work for, grow the produce for McDonalds, they do not watch TV, make them, buy them, sell them, own them??

I don’t think you know many real Christians my friend.  No real Christian (as opposed to pretenders - that is “Christian in name only) would want to “stone them or hack through a neck.”

Get back under your rock. :0)

Get

Rover of North Cooma says:

03:49pm | 07/04/11

Davi, yay, see Punchers, obesity can be good for you.

Kevin says:

04:15pm | 07/04/11

I don’t have hard facts to back me up, but it is my impression that in the USA the states that regularly employ capital punishment are those in the “Bible Belt”.
Also Dubya (you know the one who said the person who inspired him the most was Jesus) when governor of Texas created an industry out of sending people to their death.

darragh scully says:

06:30pm | 07/04/11

@Davi, I raise you Ivan ‘The Terrible Milat’, whom decapitated a poor vulnerable backpacker with a US Marines sword that was blunt.

We have thousands of chefs, cooks, tree loopers and our Aussie Axe guys are the world champions with axes. If push came to shuv we could hack the shit out of anyone as good as anyone, its not as hard as you make out. The difference here is the context of the consequences, ask Ivan. Me personally I prefer the Ninja Katana weapons, or the Hanso Satori method (see kill bill for indepth reference).

I was wondering when Id get a chance to plug the TV show Deadliest Warrior. A good episode is IRA v Taliban. The computer stats gave it to the IRA warrior. The spetznaz v green beret went to the Spetznaz. Whoppie. Id have to say though that the cake today should go to the African Tribe of David. To be king of the Tribe of David, in Africa you must kill a Lion with your bare hands, no stun guns, no tranquilizers. Ok to be a man you get to use a knife and even a lower level in that society if you have to use a gun. As far as I know the crown is currently vacant and if you watch the shows on TV about lions that provide the close up of what damage they do you will know why. Just saying like.

ps: We have the Bomb assholes.

Adam says:

10:22pm | 08/04/11

@ Davi - “Christians have grown rich at the expense of the Muslim, digesting vast oil fields and turning all that vast wealth into plasma TV’s, McDonalds hamburgers, cardiovascular diseases, obesity, premature death and really ugly beach bodies.”

Interesting, and even with all that cardiovascular disease, obesity, premature death and really ugly beach bodies these Christians living in the west having a longer life expectancy than Muslims living in the east. Sucks to be them…

Davi says:

06:08pm | 12/04/11

@True Believer.

The ‘True Christians’ I know don’t believe in atheists, therefore your point is nullified.

Another thing, just which Bible have you been reading that does not include stoning, beheadings, wife beatings, infanticide, raping of innocents etc.. You can’t just pretty your religion up by saying that under certain circumstances not everything in the Bible is literal and then assume that someone else’s faith is incorrect based on their equally intangible stories that are ‘written’. The circular argument every Christian has for the validity of their religion should apply equally to all Abrahamic religions - It is so because it is written by the hand of God, we know this because he told us in the book he wrote. Even an infant could poke a hole in that reasoning and yet you believe that only Christians are allowed to be idiotic enough to believe such rubbish.

Getting back to the point - Does Islam sanction beheadings? probably not most of the time, but you’d have to read it in context. It may not be a literal translation. Allah would want you to work this out for yourselves….

Heard of sarcasm much?
-Davi

PTom says:

03:13pm | 07/04/11

What was the religon of Mexican drug cartel that behead 15 or the 12 workers in Nepeal
As for blood history how about Vlad the implaer, Mary Tudor or Eleonore von Schwarzenberg individuals then you the Crusades, Salem Witch hunting, Spanish Inquisition, European Inquisition and don’t forget the English-Spainish Wars. 
Yep only Islam is a uniquely bloody religion.

Geoff - Brisbane says:

03:43pm | 07/04/11

Communism, Stalin and Mao.

Athiests love dragging Christianity into the “radical relgion” debate. Welcome to the party athiests.

Shelly says:

05:12pm | 07/04/11

@Geoff - I love a party. Thanks for the invite. So you’re saying Mao and Stalin committed their atrocities in the name of . . . no god? That make sense to you? Were Stalin’s and Mao’s acts committed because they were athiests? Did athiesm inspire them to commit atrocities? Or were they just homicidal scumbags with stupid political doctrines who happened to not believe in the existence of the supernatural?

Compare and contrast with perhaps the hooded Islamic Headchopper screaming “Inshallah” or “die infidel die” while simultaneously separating an infidel’s head from his/her shoulders.

One done in the name of religion - one not so much.

The question perhaps you could be asking is why haven’t the Islamic Headchoppers progressed beyond the head/shoulder separation fetish?

Dan says:

01:09am | 09/04/11

I call bullshit on the attempt to portray you as anything but a paranoid, hypocritical, blood-thirsty Islamophobe. You don’t know the first thing about Islam at all and the country would be a lot better without the likes of you!

“Any study of the Koran, Islamic doctrine, and the history of Islam”

Which you have never partaken, beyond looking up KKK sites!

“will show that it is an uniquely bloody religion, and that Mohammed intended it as such.”

BS. You have no idea what Mohammed intended and to describe Islam as a ’ uniquely bloody religion’ shows how repulsively ignorant you are!

He intended it to be a beautiful and peaceful religion, which it is.

The problem is with extremism, and there are plenty of non-Islamic extremists, such as you!

Darragh Scully says:

07:45pm | 07/04/11

I raise you World War 2. 80 billion combatants dead.
I raise you China, the worlds most prolific inflictor of the Death Penalty.
Im suprised no one has mentioned Siera Leonne in the 90’s, not really anyone who talks about their limb removal and stoning to death social control policies goes on the target list.

Its funny though that we are on here whinging about the Muslims who scare the bejesus out of us and own most of the oil, who have generally curbed the use of the death penality and often commute it with the exception of Pakistan whom also have the bomb, parts of North Africa and the African East Coast and the Extremist Fundamentalists sects such as Bin Ladans mob.

Yet China has an even more abhorent human rights abuse record, are on record as the most prolific death penalty administrators and The West Australian Goverment seems to be doing full on buisness with them as are pretty much the people from Everywhereelseeeestan (slured from generational Alcoholism effects on my accent). 

So when it comes down to doing something about it, ie, stemming the continuance of unimaginable suffering, we have a number of options. One is the Munroe Doctrine, ie we shut our borders, our doors and block them out. We seem to have alot of compromise on that in that in some places we will impose sanctions and in others we will not, Iraq and China for example who have broad and ammuzing levels of sanctions that are vivid contrasts of the Bias that these Moral Dilemas create for us.

The other option is to use Hardpower, deploy Large Expiditionary forces, first using drones complete 21 days of Sorties and create a hole in Pakistans air defence system, use the f22 and the out of visual range capabilities of the AMRAM that can assault the PAK FA or J20 giving it only a 4 second window to react in from over 20 km away, then with Carpet Bombing, Blanket Bombing. Cruise Missiles land that expiditionary force which includes the Heavy Cavalry, Light Infantry, Artillary which will sweep throught their country side, locate their nuclear weapons and disable them. It would require a full scale conscription from All Nato countries and would be vehmently opposed by China and Russia. China being the biggest threat because the most forward forces in the plan would be the Aircraft Carriers and the accompniament Battle Groups of destroyers and friggates etc and subs becuase they now have a Deterence factor that limits our ability to deploy conventional forces as they have develped the d31 Carrier Killer Missile. Not to mention they stole ove 80% of the design to from Lockheed and Martin for the new stealth jet they have, the J20 and their Nuclear Missiles are within reach of 80% of the worlds population.

We could nuke them first which is something they have been threatened with before which just shuts down the talks that dont ever go anywhere.

So the situation is a stale mate and all we can try to do is contain them as we have been doing in Africa, the Middle east and Afghanistan and try to get the more moderate members of their communities to support the Blockade and Campagns that are going to allow us to Blockade them. Apparantly they dont study our History, and they do not understand the depths that others have dragged us down to in the past, I give you dresden and i give you hiroshima, Facist Nazi’ism and Shintoism Kaput at the cost of 80 million combatants, with the largest loosers being Communist Russia at 35 million dead. More people died from the flew.

ahh, just be thankful that you dont have to put up with it here in Australia because the Hegemon’s love is endless in the name of Jesus Christ.

Unprotected Species says:

09:43am | 08/04/11

Wow, Darragh, what a monumental blame shift. Here we go.

WW2. A war. Not a situation where fathers were drowning their daughters for speaking to the wrong man. Everyone was killing everyone. At best a moral stalemate. Also over 60 years ago. The latest Muslim murder was two days ago.

06/04/2011 Nigeria. Boko Haram Islamists gun down two people in a drive-by.

China. Yes. And one would presume the people that are being executed are guilty of something,  at least from the Chinese perspective. The Chinese are not executing homosexuals. They are not cutting off the hands of criminals. I do not agree with the Chinese capital punishment policy, but this is a discussion about the murder of innocent people in the name of Islam.

Siera Leonne 20 years ago? How about I raise you Ivory Coast just the other day.

http://www.favstocks.com/rebel-forces-target-catholic-priests-in-ivory-coast-church-facilities-destroyed/0441102/

While you’re dusting off your history books, Islam is raping and slaughtering innocents every single day you are above the ground. Your attempt to deny that comes off at best evasive, at worst complicit.

Islam as an ideology has a far worse human rights record than China. Case closed. The rest of that paragraph was embarrassing for you, so I’ll skip that and pretend you are compos mentis.

Yeah. I get your point here. A cheap gambit to marginalise me as someone who wants to blow dem Muslims back to the stone age, when all I have ever advocated is education. The reason most suicide bombers are racing to their deaths is they have very little to live for. With a solid education, job opportunities and the status and self satisfaction that come along with it they would be much harder targets for sociopathic Imams to corrupt. Right now it is fish in a barrel. So thanks for writing. Your erratic, poorly informed and wildly assumptive reply was a great way to get my brain firing for the day ahead.

Bernard CrashDadsHeap says:

11:26am | 08/04/11

Was it?

Oh I think you might be overfocused a little no alot.
Have you tired Assinst Creed? Its full of Immams and Crusaders in the streets. You inow you can take out your frustration on them as much as you want as long as you can avoid the guards.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XETk-zYa11U
Ok thats a brilliant theme song by my boys from Boston.

Talking about child slavery, women every day force their children up out of bed and into that primary school prison where they get brainwashed all day, just saying. (hands up kids if you like school)

Child rape, well I tell you I have been deep into the files of the Offender Programs sex abuse clients and you would be suprized that you might be living next door to a child rapist and not even know it. Mind you I cant fathom what I heard on hear about the way they can marry a kid at any age and only have to wait till the child is 9. Then again I have seen the film Desert Rose have you. They now call Mogadisu the City of Corpses, a place where you can go, and they will bury you up to your neck in the middle of the football stadium and throw stones at you face till you dead. I guess they just dont want another Bilderberg scam that leads to a major Chemical Spill down there, hence their new and more effective coast guard, or so I have been told directly by the people of somalia. Like on one hand you feel sorry for them and wish you could tell them they could get much more help with the coast guard problems if they had less barbaric practices then again africa is a wild place that eve alah has had much problems trying to make it civilized.

As for mudering homosexuals, we have been doing that in western societies for ages, thats why so many of them have been in the closet. Things are more liberal these days however which should lead to change. Now you hear about them killing each other, Homocide as one detective described, as in Homo Sexual kills another homo sexual similar to Philicide, is Homocide. I think they avoided using Gaycide because it sounds like a Fertilizer.

I see all the things you see. However I think more people died in LA and NY from gunshot wounds and more people were mugged for Crack. More people died in mass murders from crazy kids who watched to much Metal Gear Solid on the playstation. In fact our prisons all over the world are just getting more full and the detention centres are to. Kind of makes you wonder because Ive seen the graph of the Industrial Revolution and how it correlates with peak oil, in Terms of the Population that is, ie once we reach peak oil, peak wheat and peak water things just start to go down hill. Lets call it Mass De Evolution. It will end up like Dawn of the Dead. And you wont be able to hide from it.
Take a survival holiday love, see how well you go. Now think what it will be like when there is only eneough food to feed 10% of the population. Ok you think the small minds on Capital Hill havent thought of that. In fact they allready have a list of those who get to safety and those who are left behind.

True Believer says:

01:57pm | 07/04/11

@Tedd
Pray who “honours crucifixion” - you had to have your little jibe didn’t you.

It is the sacrifice of Jesus to carry the sin of the world that Christians honour.  He laid down His life for you and me - that we may be free.

Nark says:

02:11pm | 07/04/11

‘and God wrote the great book.. and we know as such because he told us within its pages…’

I am your god now. Fear me. It is written.

hot tub political machine says:

02:16pm | 07/04/11

Yeah that’s right because Christians are so in favour of crucifixtion, which is incidentally, how many of thousands of them died in the days of the early Church. History fail.

Tedd says:

02:33pm | 07/04/11

Honouring and ‘in favour of’ are not the same thing.  The crucifix is a symbol of torture, though a X shaped one was universally used in Jesus’ day.

TB, Jesus was punished for his crimes in the Temple - sedition & assault

True Believer says:

03:48pm | 07/04/11

@Tedd

Believe what you want mate. You are determined to plod on in the dark. Hope your beliefs bring you life. Jesus is Life to me.

True Believer says:

03:52pm | 07/04/11

@Nark

Well I didn’t read the “great book” as you call it until I met the Author (and before you get clever, I am not referring to the humans writers who took it down for Him.”

Stephy says:

04:58pm | 07/04/11

Tedd.

History fail right enough. He was tried as a traitor for claiming to be King of the Jews. And crucifixtion was a very common method of execution.

Rob says:

06:50pm | 07/04/11

True Believer, you say you’ve met the author.  What’s he/her look like?

James1 says:

02:01pm | 07/04/11

If Islam=beheading, how do you explain the one billion Muslims currently not beheading anyone?

It seems a little reductionist to say that because some Muslims behead people, therefore all Muslims are into beheading.

By those evidentiary standards, could I then say that because the Lord’s Resistance Army of Uganda loves Jesus, and use rape and HIV/AIDS as a weapon against women, that all Christians love rape and HIV/AIDS?  Of course not.  To suggest such a thing is offensive, just as it is offensive to more than one billions Muslims to say they all love beheading.

Greg says:

02:21pm | 07/04/11

You didn’t read the linked article, did you James1? You didn’t read Finn’s comment either, did you?

Or maybe you just didn’t understand, which is why you spat out some irrelevant post to argue against something that was never said.

Not every Muslim has to behead somebody to prove that the religion seems to sanction decapitation. That’s like saying that every Christian has to be crucified before they can be accepted by their religion. It is nonsense.

The way to determine the truth of Finn’s actual statement is to review the facts and the evidence. The article that I linked to does that in detail.

And you came back with nothing…........

Sad Sad Reality says:

02:29pm | 07/04/11

James1, The comparison about one Ugandan group and a practice followed around the world in the name of Islam is disingenuous at best. Deliberately misleading at worst. The list of beheading videos available (these are just the beheadings we know about) is incredible. The one common denominator - Islam.

And beheadings (as depraved and savage as they are) are just one vile aspect of this faith. Would you deny that every country with a dominant Muslim population is violent, oppressive and intolerant as instructed by their prophet?

One billion Muslims may not love beheading. But one billion Muslims do believe that a pedophile holds the key to eternal life. One billion Muslims do believe that Allah and his faith Islam (submission) take precedence over a liberal, democratic society and the secular rule of law. If that’s not something to diametrically oppose, I don’t know what is.

Erick says:

03:15pm | 07/04/11

James1, did you read the link?

Also, using strawmen such as “Islam = beheading” is not up to your usual standard of argument.

James1 says:

04:23pm | 07/04/11

Apologies gentlemen - I should have read the article.  It is very interesting.

However, I still maintain that not every Muslim is a bloodthirsty beheader-in-waiting, and I would certainly not agree that we should eradicate Islam, or any other religion for that matter.  I would further still maintain that while Muslims may commit barbaric acts, we cannot blame every Muslim for the behaviour of a minority.  If we accept that Muslims are by definition evil or bloodthirsty - which is in fact far from the case - the ramifications of such an acceptance do not augur well for the future of our society.

SSR, thanks for engaging in a debate.  Your restraint is greatly appreciated.  While I would agree that we should oppose people placing their religion over their allegiance to the state, I do not think that most Australian Muslims in particular think that way.  I am aware of the flaws inherent in an argument from personal experience, but I have not met one that thinks this way.  As for the beliefs of Muslims, to me they are no more or less ridiculous than those of Christians, Jews, Hindus, and others.

While we are having a civil discussion, what are your thoughts on Islamic religious rulings against such barbarity?  An Islamic renaissance in the making, perhaps?

Zac says:

04:28pm | 07/04/11

James1,

A while ago research was published in The Australian that stated 10% (just one Islamic nation) of Indonesians are terrorists and heaps more support and fund terrorism. That in terms of raw numbers is around 20 million. The powerful Atheist Communists just few decades ago (not hundreds or thousands of years ago) killed hundreds of millions in the name of Atheistic utopia i.e,  without any claim to gods. So no one has to prove (or is claiming) every Muslim and Atheist can/is committing heinous acts. But that doesn’t mean violence is not a very prominent weapon in Islamic and Atheist faiths. The question is can Islamic, Atheistic and secularist militancy (most important word) lead to terrible deeds? The answer is YES! YES!. So no amount of calling it PC terms like bull shit will wash with people unconverted by the media or the left.

Sad Sad Reality says:

05:05pm | 07/04/11

James if you gave a Muslim the choice between following the law and following Allah’s law (if punishments were removed) he or she would choose Allah’s law every single time. To do otherwise makes them not Muslim but an Islamic enthusiast.

I agree that all religions are ridiculous, (except buddhism, destroying desire is something a lot of westerners could do well to learn) but Islam is the architect of a disproportionate amount of violence and pain around the globe. Whatever horrors Christianity has visited upon human kind in the past, it is simply not even in the Islamic ballpark for contemporary acts of rampage and murder.

I sincerely hope their is an Islamic renaissance developing, but the cynical part of my character reminds me that the majority of Muslims are illiterate, poor and oppressed and that such groups will always supply an endless array of suicide bombers, honour killers, unfeeling suicide bomber matriarchs and vicious Imams.

James1 says:

05:27pm | 07/04/11

Only time will tell, SSR.  I am usually not very optimistic, but humankind has bounced back from worse.  Keep in mind, only 70 years ago Germany and Japan declined into the deepest barbarism that this planet has ever seen.  And to think, they were both civilised countries to begin with.  Look at them now, civilised once again.  Islam as an entity has a way to go yet before it even reaches those depths.  I just hope the decline we are seeing in many Muslim countries is arrested before it gets to that point.

On your last paragraph, one sign of hope I see is the advent of cable news channels.  It is breaking down those traditional barriers, and while the internet acts as a means of spreading extremism, it can also act to counter it through the free flow of information and knowledge.  As for the oppression, lets just hope that things turn out well for Egypt et al.  Otherwise it could get even worse before it gets better.  Again, only time will tell.

Greg says:

05:38pm | 07/04/11

James1, I agree that not every Muslim is a bloodthirsty beheader-in-waiting, and I agree that we shouldn’t eradicate Islam, or any other religion for that matter. 

And while Muslims may commit barbaric acts, I agree that we cannot blame every Muslim for the behaviour of a minority (even though it seems acceptable to blame the majority if a minority of Christian or white people commit some barbaric act).

But that is all besides the point, which is that Muslims cannot peacefully coexist with other cultures in the same country for any significant length of time, unless the other cultures are willing to submit to Islamic suppression and oppression.

I don’t particularly care if Muslims want to stone and behead eachother in their own countries, but I’m not willing to live with their behaviour here.

And even if the majority are moderate, they still provie cover for the extremists.

True Believer says:

02:04pm | 07/04/11

@Shane from Melbourne

I can assure you that Jesus and His true followers (as opposed to those who claim to be - He has said what His words will be to them “away from me I never knew you”)  never condone violence.  Jesus said “those who live by the sword will die by the sword.”

I don’t know where you get this nonsense from.

James1 says:

02:13pm | 07/04/11

TB - once again, that is a no true Scotsman logical fallacy.

There are Christians who advocate these things, just like there are Muslims advocating beheading.

It just also happens that there are Christians who do not advocate these things (like you), and Muslims who do not advocate beheadings.  Neither group is any less “true” for their advocacy or lack thereof.

Tedd says:

02:28pm | 07/04/11

“I come not to bring peace, but to bring a sword” (Matthew 10:34).

Furthermore, Jesus was charged with and convicted of sedition and assault in the Temple.

Shane From Melbourne says:

02:43pm | 07/04/11

@TB- I was writing in context of Tory’s statement: “Does that mean Islam sanctions beheading? About as much as [insert religion] sanctions [insert archaic and context-specific atrocity here].”

Unprotected Species says:

02:56pm | 07/04/11

James1, again proportion.

How many Christians are there blowing up Abortion Clinics?
How many Muslims are there murdering innocents? We have up to 1000 in the Ivory Coast alone the other day.

Islam is a much bigger threat to civilisation than even extreme Christianity, surely even you can agree that.

Barry says:

03:24pm | 07/04/11

@Tedd

*Sigh* You are either deliberately attempting to deceive, or you just saw this verse on your favorite anti-religion forum and decided to go with it prior before checking context.

True Believer says:

03:44pm | 07/04/11

@Tedd

You misunderstand, Jesus meant the “sword of the spirit”  - see Ephesians.

You see things only of the flesh. He speaks of spiritual matters at well which are uncomprehensible to the carnal mind.

James1 says:

04:37pm | 07/04/11

“Islam is a much bigger threat to civilisation than even extreme Christianity, surely even you can agree that.”

One would have to be stupid to disagree.  However, a small threat is still a small threat.  I have a lot of faith in the civilising effects of liberal democracy, and people such as Waleed Aly and thousands like him are testament to that.  It seems wrong (to me) to dismiss the overwhelming majority, and form opinions towards this majority based on the behaviour of a minority.  As such, I do not judge Christians for the LRA any more than I judge Muslims for the behaviour of Al Qaeda.

stephen says:

01:44pm | 07/04/11

But it seems the only exasperated ones are the non-Muslims.
Where are these moderate Muslims denouncing bloody murder ?

Greg says:

01:53pm | 07/04/11

The divisions in the community are already there, have always been there since mass immigration of Muslims began, and will always be there whenever incompatible cultures are forced to live together.

In the long run, there will only be one surviving culture. The only uncertainty is which one it will be.

Unprotected Species says:

02:01pm | 07/04/11

Shame the moderates remain silent on the atrocities committed around the world every day in the name of Islam. Shame they do absolutely nothing to stem the tide of Islamic extremism in their midst. Shame the moderates openly or tacitly support Hamas and Hezbollah, widely recognised terrorist organisations.

James1 says:

02:04pm | 07/04/11

An Islamic group in the UK actually issued a religious ruling against suicide bombing in 2010.  Islamic scholars regularly issue religious rulings against killing civilians.

But you don’t really care about the evidence, do you?  It doesn’t suit your contention that all Muslims are the same, so you ignore the evidence and instead rely on your assertions.

Greg says:

02:30pm | 07/04/11

Would that Islamic group happen to be Islam4UK:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/6931212/What-is-Islam4UK.html

the group that wants Sharia Law introduced, the same islamic law
that endorses beheadings:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1578120/My-sentence-was-reduced-to-beheading.html

Is that enough evidence for you, James1 ?

Unprotected Species says:

02:52pm | 07/04/11

James1, as usual your comment lacks an awareness of proportion. You seem to think one spurious piece of unsubstantiated evidence makes your argument. It in fact proves mine. Where are the television interviews from leading Islamic leaders screaming for sanity? Where are the senior Islamic leaders holding marches against Islamic extremism that pack the streets with supporters?

Right now, I could post hundreds of terrorist atrocities that have occurred in 2011. These have all featured Muslims as the aggressors. Is this just some statistical anomaly or do you really believe a few hollow religious rulings cynically released to ensure the continuance of government aid show that the balance is off and my perspective is askew?

The efforts of moderates to stem the tide of terrorism is laughably miniscule.

Where were these voices of rationalism and restraint when those Muslim murderers were climbing onto trains and buses in London? Where were they when those tiny children in Russia were being blown to smithereens by Islamists?

The spokesman of the Council for American Islamic Relations (CAIR) was recently asked to denounce Hamas and Hezbollah. He evaded the question. The question was asked of other CAIR representatives. Same response. Says it all really. A supposedly moderate organisation headed by people who tacitly support terrorism. There are thousands of these organisations around the world, all working for the cause of Islam. While you argue semantics, they methodically and ruthlessly leverage the freedom and tolerance of the nations they dwell within to replace them with oppression and intolerance. That is the reality. It’s time you started realising it.

Hamish says:

03:32pm | 07/04/11

US, that is an outstanding post. The west needs to realise how easy it is for such groups to manipulate our sense of tolerance, aided and abetted by hand-wringing bureaucrats, journalists and associated cultural traitors.

James1 , you need to realise that one dubious anecdote does not qualify as ‘evidence’.

James1 says:

04:31pm | 07/04/11

Unsubstantiated?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7046487.ece

“Where were these voices of rationalism and restraint when those Muslim murderers were climbing onto trains and buses in London? Where were they when those tiny children in Russia were being blown to smithereens by Islamists?”

I’m not sure - I was busy with other things when that happened.  However, did you know that one of the biggest protests against the 9/11 bombings took place on the streets of Tehran?

My point is that it is not as simple as Islam is bad.  There is a debate going on within Islam at the moment.  Let’s just hope the extremists don’t win.  Conversely, if we tell Muslims that they are all extremists, and their only option is to become lapsed Muslims or be killed, what choice do they have?  So far, most other religions (a few pockets aside) have emerged from the Dark Ages.  Islam has before, and it can again.

AdamC says:

04:39pm | 07/04/11

Unprotected Species and Hamish, I agree entirely. James1 seems to be running interefernce on this topic.

James1 says:

04:51pm | 07/04/11

No I just disagree with them on Islam.  Moderate Muslims do exists - in their hundreds of millions.  Differing interpretations of the Koran abound, as evidenced by the myriad debates over what the Koran means between Islamic scholars.  It just happens that these debates are carried on in Arabic, and don’t come with pictures of bodies, and as such tend not to make it into the news.  I am well aware of the atrocities committed by Muslims, but they do not speak for many, and certainly not most Muslims.  As such, I refuse to label the little girl next door as an evil threat to our society because somewhere, some Muslim is chopping off a head.

Every single Muslim I have ever met is just as good a person as you or me.  I try my best not to hate people based on assumptions and stereotypes, and to judge them as individuals.  As such, I will argue against anyone who writes off one quarter of humankind as evil because they follow one ancient book rather than another, or none.

Unprotected Species says:

04:51pm | 07/04/11

James1. I know what you are saying. But I feel the basic building blocks of Islam are so diametrically opposed to the freedoms we enjoy in the west, the religion cannot be reformed, it can only be removed. I’m not advocating murder to achieve this aim, just education. Most illiterate Islamic suicide bombers have no ability to conceive of a world outside their own. Instead of condoning the faith that sees them brutally slaughter innocents we should be trying to free them from the stone age noose around their necks.

James1 says:

05:15pm | 07/04/11

Then that is the crux of our disagreement US.  Most other religions have been reformed out of their dark ages period - indeed, even Islam has had brief flowerings that made contemporary Christian societies look like the Soviet Union.  I think that modern Islam can be too.  However, as an atheist I would have no problem with everyone in the world being educated out of their religion.  Just as long as it was voluntary, and they are not converted to atheism at the point of a sword.  If it goes that way, how can we continue to claim the moral high ground against the Islamists?

“Most illiterate Islamic suicide bombers have no ability to conceive of a world outside their own.”

If only it were that simple.  Unfortunately, many if not most suicide bombers are actually reasonably well educated, especially outside of tribal societies like Afghanistan and Iraq, where suicide bombing tends to be more insurgent in nature than terrorist.  It is the type of education they are receiving we need to target, and by publicising and popularising the fact that debates within Islam over these issues exist, we can take a step in that direction.

AdamC says:

05:41pm | 07/04/11

James1, of course there are moderate muslims. Indeed, I would argue that the existence of that very preface is the most effective rebuttal of your argument. A fundamentalist Christian isn’t one who blows up non-believers, or anyone else he or she doesn’t like. Nor is a devout Jew or a committed Buddhist. Have you ever heard of a ‘moderate’ Catholic, at least in the context of whether they support mass muder or otherwise?

I am in absolute agreement with your stance on individual responsibility and not using co-religionists’ bad behaviour as an excuse to discriminate against muslims. But you are essentially standing amongst a stampede of elephants, uttering bland platitudes. It just isn’t very convincing.

Seano says:

06:32pm | 07/04/11

@stephen - and where are all the Christians doing the same? Why are they held to a different standard? Why don’t Christians have to denounce the Rev. Fred Phelps of “God hates fags” fame? Why because he’s just one of many nut jobs who is not representitive of the majority view. Your whole argument is bullshit.

@Greg - Bullshit. At one time Hansonites where screaming about Asian imigration, before that similar morons where screaming about the dire consequences of Greek and Italian migration. Why aren’t they still ranting on about the disaster of Asian migration simply because the disaster hasn’t materialised.  The whole point is not a deep concern for Australia it’s bigotry.

@US and Hamish - of course James has provided the evidence I expect retractions wont be forth coming. Bigots don’t change their minds based on evidence they just change their tactics.

Seano says:

06:40pm | 07/04/11

AdamC - “James1, of course there are moderate muslims.”

You make it sound like you’d be lucky to meet one but they exist. The fact is it’s the other way around you’re as likely to meet a nutjob Islamist as you are to meet someone equally insane on the other side of the fence like the Rev. Fred Phelps. That is not very. Instead of trying to embrace the vast majority of those Muslim moderates we are allowing petty politicians and bigots to push them away making a much more fertile beeding ground for the nutjobs to take hold.

Greg says:

10:38pm | 07/04/11

@Seano, “the disaster hasn’t materialised”?

Really? Don’t you have eyes and ears? The demographic disaster is here and now, and tensions are escalating all the time.

It wasn’t so long ago that I seemed to be the only person taking on the politically correct morons, and now I can hardly get a word in as everybody is jumping on the reality bandwagon.

I know that you are beginning to sense too, as your increasingly shrill posts demonstrate.

It won’t be long before your fellow travellors jump on as well, although for all the wrong reasons.

The clock is ticking, and the momentum for change is growing, and you are on the wrong side.

Unprotected Species says:

10:59pm | 07/04/11

Seano, I hardly think one supurflous fatwa written by “Muslim scholar Dr Muhammed Tahir ul-Qadri, a former government adviser in Pakistan and friend of the former Prime Minister Benazir Bhutto” is indicative of a mass movement of moderates (who we are to believe are the majority of Muslims) rising up in disgust at the hideous murders committed in the name of Islam. Instead of labelling me a bigot in an attempt to close down debate, show me the protests in the same countries that called for the bloody murder of mere cartoonists that demand suicide bombers stop ruining the name of Islam.

It is all well and good to find one quote in the Times from a politicised Muslim scholar with a public profile to protect. Show me the men and women on the street, the moderates who live side by side with the suicide bombers, marching and demanding sanity. Or are there not as many moderates around as we are lead to believe.

My problem is proportion. If the moderates are so powerful, so many and so against slaughter, why are they not preventing:

http://www.favstocks.com/rebel-forces-target-catholic-priests-in-ivory-coast-church-facilities-destroyed/0441102/

http://www.france24.com/en/20110407-bahrain-hospitals-used-bait-snare-rebels

http://weaselzippers.us/2011/04/05/saudi-arabia-christian-man-jailed-faces-death-penalty-for-sharing-his-faith-with-muslims/

http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=215385

http://uk.mobile.reuters.com/article/entertainmentNews/idUKLDE7341FL20110405

http://www.aina.org/news/20110405211926.htm

http://www.smh.com.au/world/schoolgirl-14-charged-with-adultery-report-20110406-1d373.html

http://www.sundaytimes.lk/index.php/world-news/6201-gunmen-kill-four-children-two-others-from-same-family

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/2011/04/04/2011-04-04_teenage_pakistani_suicide_bomber_whose_explosive_belt_failed_to_go_off_vows_to_t.html

http://allafrica.com/stories/201104040856.html

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/world/bombs-kill-30-at-pakistani-shrine/story-e6frf7lf-1226032990242?from=public_rss

http://undhimmi.com/2011/04/04/media-cover-up-tunisian-refugees-torch-church-on-italian-refugee-island/

I can keep going all day if you’d like.

Seano says:

09:30am | 08/04/11

@Greg - Ad hominem attacks and no substance. There is no Asian migration disaster that you can logically point to which is why you bigots have moved on to the next target.

@US - Not the point. The vast majority of Muslims are moderates who we should be joining with to challenge the few loonies out there not ostracising because people like you can’t put your bigotry aside to get some sort of perspective. We should be isolating the loonies not all Muslims.

AdamC says:

09:52am | 08/04/11

“You make it sound like you’d be lucky to meet [a moderate muslim]. “

No I don’t. Read what I actually wrote if you want to respond to it. You have comprehensively missed my point.  Again, spamming the thread with the standard PC bullshit isn’t very effective.

AdamC says:

10:17am | 08/04/11

Seano, re my comment above, I didn’t mean to be that combative. I apologise for the unnecessary intensity. Let’s just say that the morning has left me a little cranky.

(Of course, I’m not conceding any actual point.)

Unprotected Species says:

10:44am | 08/04/11

Seano, not the point? Seriously.

Where are these vast majority of Muslims? What are they doing? We constantly hear that they are the majority but see virtually no action on their end to combat the depravity committed in their name. It is ridiculous for Muslims to claim they are a persecuted minority when they do absolutely nothing to change the state of play. As soon as a crime is committed, the entire community closes ranks and shuts out the police. It happened in London. It happens in France. It happens in Australia. It happens around the world. Until it stops happening, I’m holding the entire Muslim community to account for the actions of the few. If that makes me a bigot, so be it.

Seano says:

10:53am | 08/04/11

Adam - I read your point mate I disagree. The whole issue I have is that we are ostracising the majority view in Islam because of the few loonies. It’s not logical or sensible but it obviously appeals to bigots who want to create unnecessary divisions.

Australia, my Australia has always been about a “Good bloke, is a good bloke”. We can’t set up discources that tell Muslims that they are all evil abusers of human rights and then expect them to get along in our society.

Seano says:

11:22am | 08/04/11

Of course you’re a bigot US. How many Muslims in this country have you met that advocate this sort of craziness? If you were honest I’d guess none.

Unprotected Species says:

11:46am | 08/04/11

Seano, the question is how many Muslims have I met that have marched in the street against these acts of violence? None. Zero. A big, fat nada. Their silence is deafening.

Seano says:

01:02pm | 08/04/11

US - no, that’s just your fairly lane attempt at misdirection. Firstly it’s already been demonstrated to you that there are Muslims who have protested these atrocities so you’re a liar as well as a bigot. Secondly, do we demand all Christians come out and protest Fred Phelps and his appalling stance because he too claims to be a Christian? No. Should demand all me take to the streets to demonstrate against rape and murder because of the few who have committed such acts? No. It’s bullshit argument for a bigot to hide behind.

Greg says:

01:24pm | 09/04/11

Ad hominem attack, Seano? Where? What did I say to offend your delicate sensitivities?

I only ever criticise your “arguments”, such as they are, and when I can find one.

You don’t evoke any passion or emotion within me. I would have to respect your intelligence before that ever happened.

As for Asians, why do you think that we have an Asian Crime Squad? Why has drug crime increased so much in the past 30 years? Why are there so many attacks with machetes (police code for Asian gang violence).

Maybe you should try setting up a shop in Cabramatta and see how long it takes before you get a visit from people asking for protection money. Pay up, or end up like ex local MP John Newman.

Now run along and have a good cry, so that you then compose yourself enough to post your inevitably insipid response.

Seano says:

04:08pm | 09/04/11

@Greg - To avoid looking sillier maybe next time you should look up the term “moron” champ before whinging that you haven’t posted an ad hominem. 

“why do you think that we have an Asian Crime Squad?” Largely because criminals from Asia speak different languages, because we are sited geographically at the bottom of Asia.

“Why has drug crime increased so much in the past 30 years?”

Because there’s a profit in it. There’s nothing race related in that…unless you’re a bigot.

“Why are there so many attacks with machetes (police code for Asian gang violence).”

Now you’re just making it up.

“Maybe you should try setting up a shop in Cabramatta and see how long it takes before you get a visit from people asking for protection money. Pay up, or end up like ex local MP John Newman.”

Protection rackets have been around since the dawn of time, that’s why having a quality police force is important. In fact when I lived in Parramatta a few years ago some people tried to start one there, you know how was behind it….teenagers. Maybe we should start deporting teenagers back where they come from…oh wait. You’re a bigot who sees what he wants to see to justify his bigotry.

“Now run along and have a good cry, so that you then compose yourself enough to post your inevitably insipid response. “

After looking up “moron” perhaps you should look up the terms ‘troll” (internet) and bigot.

Greg says:

12:21am | 10/04/11

@ Seano - To avoid looking sillier maybe next time you should look up the term “ad hominem attack” before whinging that you have been a victim of one.

I mentioned how I took on “politically correct morons”, and you just assumed that it was all about you. Well it’s not all about you, there are plenty of politically correct morons in the world, and you are nothing special.

It wasn’t a personal attack, at least not until you voluntarily included yourself as a member of the morons. Clearly you must get called a moron often, which is understandable and why you just assume that whenever the word is mentioned that it must have been aimed at you.

But I don’t need to state the obvious, so I don’t, and I didn’t.

Your other attempts at rebuttals were literally laughable. I suppose we also have a Middle Eastern Crime squad because you think that “we are sited geographically at the bottom of the Middle East”?

There have always been profits in drugs, but the escalation in drug crime has a direct correlation with Asian migration in Australia. Of course correlation doesn’t always mean causal, but it does when the vast majority of drugs are sourced from Asia and when the majority of drug kings are Asian.

Ask any cop about who is likely to use a machete in a violent crime, and see for yourself who is making stuff up.

As for gangs of teenagers running protection rackets, you are clearly delusional, or are you talking about schoolyard lunch money here?

I mean seriously, are you totally oblivious to how stupid these counter claims of yours are? Can’t you see that if you have no comeback, then you are better off posting nothing rather than something really stupid?

But if you insist, keep up your little tantrums, they are very amusing.

Greg says:

01:18am | 10/04/11

@ Seano, maybe the media is “making up stuff” too?

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/opinion/cops-hid-the-gang-reality/story-e6frfhqf-1225869351726

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/secret-police-report-exposes-gang-fears-as-open-warfare-erupts/story-e6frf7jo-1225868879397

http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/breaking-news/stabbing-machete-attack-at-party-and-fundraiser-in-melbourne/story-e6freono-1225835190000

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/victoria/man-who-admitted-slashing-bouncer-with-machete-refused-bail/story-e6frf7kx-1225974550461

http://melbourne-leader.whereilive.com.au/news/story/police-hunting-another-man-over-nightclub-machete-attack/

Seano says:

10:08am | 10/04/11

You really are a troll. You respond to a comment I made with “politically correct morons” and then you try and hide when called on your ad hominem. A troll and not a very brave one obviously as you do not have the balls to stand behind the mud you sling.

“we also have a Middle Eastern Crime squad “

And a drug squad, fire arms etc etc. So you’ve moved on from Asians to Aribs? It makes perfect sense to have specialist squads because of lanaguage and cultural differences when it comes to new migrates. That doesn’t make all immigrants criminals, unless you’re a bigot of course.

“but the escalation in drug crime has a direct correlation with Asian migration in Australia.”

Proof. Bigotry isn’t proof champ.

I’m no longer interested in arguing with a bigoted gutless troll who makes it up as he goes a long and expect to be taken seriously. You’re on your own champ.

Greg says:

06:23pm | 11/04/11

Given up have you Seano? Off you go then, run away and sulk.

Another little tantrum about ad hominem attacks from somebody who can’t write a response without including the words “troll”, “bigot” or “racist”, in order to fill up all the holes in his so-called “argument”.

And I never claimed that all immigrants were criminal either. You just made that up, in your usual tactic of arguing against something that I never said, in order to cover up your inability to rebut anything that I did actually write.

As for proof, I’ve already given you plenty. But it makes no difference with you, does it? You just sit there with your eyes closed, fingers in your ears, saying “no, no, no!” And heaven forbid that you ever provide any proof whatsoever to justify your bizzare claims.

But you have forgotten something. How can you have the last word now that you have gone away to sulk? That was all you had left to boost your self esteem - to keep posting even when you had nothing.

Now what are you going to do?

TracyH says:

01:49pm | 13/04/11

Come on Seano!!!!! The posts between you and Greg are priceless!!!! IMO you are winning Greg

Sad Sad Reality says:

01:53pm | 07/04/11

I thought women generally understand the concept of proportion. The amount of people killed in the US by lethal injection throughout history would not equal half of the people killed by Islam in one year.

It was not American’s sniffing around the Lucas Heights nuclear reactor looking for a place to plant a bomb. It wasn’t Americans obliterating school children in Beslan with plastic explosives. It wasn’t Americans blowing up a Russian airport, buses and trains in London and a train in spain. It was Islam.

Anne_N says:

02:50pm | 07/04/11

SSR,

Islam isn’t just a religion, it forms the basis of the law in muslim countries, doesn’t it?  So in some countries, under some circumstances, beheadings are corporal punishment, just like the U.S. with their lethal injections and/or electrocutions.  It could be argued that it’s a case of ‘my brutality is more acceptible than your brutality’, depending on your point of view.

Acts of terrorism are just that - acts of terrorism - and may or may not take the form of beheadings.

Seanr says:

02:51pm | 07/04/11

Moral equivalence at work hey Kath. You obviously see nothing different between killing convicted murderers and rapists and the beheading of innocents…nice.

Sad Sad Reality says:

03:15pm | 07/04/11

Anne-N more hollow semantics.

Yes in some places beheadings are corporal punishment. But as you can see from my post above, clearly stipulated in plain English, beheadings in the name of Islam are just the beginning.

As Seanr points out, corporal punishments are handed out to criminals. Hardly what we are discussing here. My point is, even if we were to take State sanctioned executions into account, the sheer number of Islamic inspired murders of innocent people would outweigh them by about 1:100,000.

Anne_N says:

04:25pm | 07/04/11

SSR, you’re so cute. lol

I believe Kath was making an analogy between an islamic form of punishment and the american form of punishment.

YOU"RE the one who extrapolated that into the wholesale slaughter of innocents…

Sad Sad Reality says:

12:07am | 08/04/11

Anne, don’t patronise me you imbecile.

I know what Kathy was doing, as seanr pointed out, she was using disingenuous moral equivalence to imply that the beheading of innocent UN aid workers and journalists is comparable to the execution of criminals. Pretty vile if you ask me.

Do you really believe that the beheadings featured on those grainy videos are indicative of state sanctioned executions? That it is just another Islamic state doing its thing and we should just leave it alone? Could you be that stupid?

Lara says:

07:19am | 08/04/11

Anne,

You are right!  He is cute especially when he gets cranky.

Sad Sad Reality says:

09:51am | 08/04/11

The typical female gambit. Can’t compete on the playing field of abstract ideas, have to immediately try to patronise and shift the frame. Too docile to converse on anything outside the shoe isle at Myer. And you wonder why men see you as a life support system for your genitalia.

Cue transparent, year 8, shaming gambit.

Matt says:

11:38am | 08/04/11

Shut the hell up SSR, you’re an embarrassment.

Sad Sad Reality says:

01:38pm | 08/04/11

Enter the white knight mangina.

Hamish says:

03:41pm | 07/04/11

Richard, I completely agree. This is partisan opinion masquerading as a quirky ‘keeping the bastards honest’ article…again. Either The Punch needs to ditch them or change the name to ‘Tenuous and Largely Baseless Attempt to Slander Coalition Politician(s)’.

Shane From Melbourne says:

06:30pm | 07/04/11

I agree. Coalition politicians don’t need The Punch’s help to slander themselves, they do a pretty good job of it themselves….

Hamish says:

04:06pm | 07/04/11

MarK, don’t you realise that the violent Muslims aren’t real Muslims and that all real Muslims aren’t violent. That’s why Saudi Arabia doesn’t count because even though they’re more muslim than pretty much any other country and Mecca’s there and stuff, they’re violent and so therefore by definition can’t actually be muslim. They’re just ‘weird’ and shit. ‘Weird stuff’ (by which I obviously mean violent stuff) doesn’t happen in Saudi Arabia because they’re a stone age Islamic theocracy it’s because they’re not a stone age Islamic theocracy. Stone age Islamic theocracies don’t condone beheading or stoning or anything like that. It’s all in the Koran dude. Tory told me so.

Markus says:

02:56pm | 07/04/11

So all of the world’s largest and most powerful muslim nations, that run under Sharia Law and practice stoning and beheading, are extremists?

It seems as if your group’s belief in Love for All and Hatred for None puts you in the minority, and thus would make you be considered the extremists.

Richard says:

03:49pm | 07/04/11

Rubbish Bushra, there are hundreds of thousands, even millions of violent Islamic extremists in the world RIGHT NOW. If that doesn’t indicate to you that Islam has a problem then you are too blind to see the plain truth in front of you.

Mark says:

07:55pm | 07/04/11

Bushra,

I respect aand appreciate your comment, but in the Muslim world, the Ahmadi Muslims are a cult. They are not and never have been excepted as ‘Islamic’ since they began. The persecution of your cult in places like Pakistan re-enforce the point of the discussion, true Quranic Islam is and has been violent.

Please don’t attempt to decieve us of this truth.

Do stick to what you believe and practice, and i wholeheartedly encourage that you do, but the Ahmadi sect is not representative of this discussion. It’s like saying the JW’s represent traditional Christianity.

Bushra says:

02:36pm | 07/04/11

Ironside, your comments are very true and depict my point exactly. Islam is not what these extremists are brainwashing into their fellow Muslims and causing such atrocities to happen. Islam is a peaceful religion, which practices the ‘Love for All, Hatred for None’ motto. Just because some Muslim leaders are acting out such vile things on other humans for the sake of reign of power and are corrupted, does not mean this is what Islam preaches its followers.

Sad Sad Reality says:

04:06pm | 07/04/11

8:12- “I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off.”

Sounds like Islam to me.

Bruno says:

04:33pm | 07/04/11

for arguments sake, because it would be too easy lets ignore the old testament which commands to lay entire cities to dust and kill everything that breathes including women and children of tribes who had been settled in certain lands for centuries while a another certain tribe was in egypt and lets focus on the new testament:

‘Matthew 10: 34-36
“Do not think that I have come to bring peace upon the earth. I have come to bring not peace but the sword. For I have come to set a man ‘against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and one’s enemies will be those of his household.”’

for arguments sake lets ignore the above paragraph as being outdated and no longer preached, lets ignore all the radical pastors in the US

Sad Sad Reality says:

05:24pm | 07/04/11

Bruno, I get your point. Let’s ignore all the Christian suicide bombers painting the walls of school gymnasiums with the blood of children. Let’s ignore the Christian men strangling their daughters for marrying the wrong man. Let’s ignore the Christian religious leaders encouraging their flocks to hack innocent Muslims to death with machetes. Let’s ignore the Christian leaders openly advocating the rape of underage girls. Let’s ignore the Christian men throwing acid in the face of women who spurn their sexual advances. Let’s ignore the Christians pack raping women who aren’t wearing the hijab. Let’s ignore the Christians chaining children together for free labour. Let’s ignore the Christians chopping off limbs for the crime of stealing a loaf of bread. Let’s ignore the Christians cheering at public executions. Let’s ignore the Christians hanging homosexuals. Let’s ignore the Christians stoning women to death for adultery. Let’s ignore the Christians holding up placards like “Behead those who oppose Islam”, “God bless Hitler”, and “F*&k freedom”. Let’s ignore the Christians training children in how to carve a man’s head from his body.

That’s a lot of very contemporary ignoring we have to do.

Cuppa says:

03:33pm | 07/04/11

Spot on Anna C.People see muslims with distrust & loathing for good reason.They are being judged by their actions & attitudes & deserve all they get.As for Tory, she is typical of the inner city, feel good, lefty crusader who doesnt have to live beside these foreign, failed cultures day in day out so it is easy for her to squeal her muslim loving gibberish. 

Bushra says:

03:46pm | 07/04/11

Anna, I agree with you completely and feel so proud of your comments. Finally, we have someone who knows the difference of ‘radical Muslims’ and the ‘good Muslims’. More good Muslims need to take a stand as you suggested and find the will to denounce all such radicals.

Richard says:

04:24pm | 07/04/11

Exactly right. When Pauline Hanson appeared as a far-right extremist in Australian politics, who was it that most vigourously condemned her, fought against her, and ultimately defeated her? It was the right wing, the Liberal party, it was Tony Abbott.

If moderate muslims do not have the same attitude towards islamic extremists as Tony Abbott took against Pauline Hanson, then they are almost as much to blame for the violence and terrorism perpetrated in the name of Islam as the extremists are themselves.

But the sad fact probably is, that although there are a few moderate muslims who vehemently condemn these acts of violence and terrorism against us heathens and dhimmis, I suspect the vast majority of muslims secretly support the terrorists and extremists; because if they didn’t, they would be the ones persecuting the extremists even harsher than we westerners do, just like Tony Abbott persecuted Pauline Hanson harsher than the Greens or Labor did.

James1 says:

05:18pm | 07/04/11

“They are being judged by their actions & attitudes & deserve all they get.”

I hope you are talking about individuals.  The last time one group of people judged an entire religious or ethnic minority based on the perceived behaviour of some, it didn’t end well.  Actually, that kind of thing never ends well.

Carl Palmer says:

05:43pm | 07/04/11

@Anna C says: 02:39pm | 07/04/11

Anna, a very concise, accurate and articulate summary of this religion and the people who follow it. The bit that has always concerned me are those “good Muslims” whose tacit approval of the unacceptable is really no different from active support.

bleD says:

06:41pm | 09/04/11

Perfect summary Anna C. The best way to rid oneself of the way religion instills its way into society is to join the secular party and make their candidate the No 1 choice on the Senate ticket. However, it will take a long time before any significant progress along secular lines takes place, I fear. The religious lot will fight tooth and nail to preserve the status quo and their privileges.

Mensur Cehic says:

09:06pm | 09/04/11

@ Anna C,

You have pretty much shat all over your own argument right here: “It is amazing how much media attention is devoted to the issue of Muslims when they only make up about 2% of our population.”

Now, given those statements - consider the following statement by me, derived from your statement:
“It is amazing how many White Australia enthusiasts come out of the woodwork in their true, overwhelming numbers on the back of FEAR propagated by deep-state militarism. Fear of their own fellow Australians – including myself (as a pseudo-Muslim). It is amazing how much ignorance is projected at hundreds of thousands of people, just because of radical elements within Islamic communities when those elements only make up about 0.02% of our Australian Muslim population.”

You then eventually stated: “To all you good Muslims out there you are also not immune from criticism. Remember the saying ‘Evil flourishes when good men look away.’ You guys need stand up and denounce radical Islamic elements within your relgion and communities. “

—I am certain, TRUE Muslims denounce them 5 times a day and hope they don’t cross their path.

Evil, my dear Anna C, flourishes because the likes of you have been looking away in IGNORANCE for the sake of greater Defence (and other organizations’) funding. Perhaps you should do some wider reading:
http://thevividwriter.wordpress.com/2011/03/27/the-hard-yards-excerpts-from-a-manuscript/

fairsfair says:

04:14pm | 07/04/11

comment of the century

AdamC says:

05:08pm | 07/04/11

I second that. I think Tory’s been pretty comprehensively ICBed here.

Seanr says:

08:19am | 08/04/11

*blushes* aww shucks fairsfair and AdamC, glad you appreciated it.

Please note Point 6 can also be used by a journalist who finds their argument ripped apart by evidence “no no you misunderstand what I was saying” (see Tory’s response above, where she gave Point 4 a go as well, she couldn’t mention Islam without mentioning ‘other religions’)

Erick says:

04:17pm | 07/04/11

“The point is, how can you call someone a leader of their people when they are advocating such punishments and spreading hatred for other human beings.”

When their people follow them, they are a leader of their people.

Sad Sad Reality says:

04:22pm | 07/04/11

If you support Islam, you support the continuance of unimaginable atrocities around the world. If you will not walk away from a religion that sanctions such hideous acts of violence, rape and oppression, I will treat you as if you condone such behaviour. Because you do.

MarK says:

04:51pm | 07/04/11

Can’t actually think of too may atrocities committed by Buddhists lately. Extreme ones or not.

Beheadings in retaliation for burning a bible don’t come to mind. I haven’t seen a good stoning for adultery down at the local Uniting Church recently either.

Just saying

jusvisiting says:

07:56am | 10/04/11

@ Mary,
I haven’t read the Bible or Koran , But having lived in a predominately muslim country, I have witnessed fist hand the overbearance ,dominance and bullying of other religions by Islam.I can give countless examples,but there is plenty of evidence out there.Maybe you should go and live in an Islamic country,as a woman or non muslim you can preach live n let live. Then come back here and tell us how u changed the world. Ah yes,” the religion of peace ” providing it is on the the the muslims terms ,and you do as they say. I think you (and others) need a change of scenery to cure your ignorance and give you a reality check.Not just a holiday ,really live in an islamic country.
    I really don’t know how this Tory lady calls herself a journalist(is she a journalist??), How does she collect her paycheck and sleep at night.?

Bushra says:

08:55pm | 07/04/11

And also, why there are never any such debated about Christianity. People like Pastor Terry Jones are all portraying the correct face of Christianity? I don’t think so.

So why, do we not debate why Christianity allows humiliation and degradation of other religions.

Does Christianity teach tolerance of each other? Definitely.  But just because one person and his followers thinks otherwise, does not mean that there is a problem with Christianity.

The same goes for Islam and the racial illiterate Muslims portraying negativity and the incorrect face of Islam and allowing inhumane atrocities.

These people do not just act so violently with people of other religions, they do the same to the people of their own country and religion, there are many examples.

chris ozman says:

10:03pm | 08/04/11

Bushra, you’re a class 1 idiot.

Comparing a single instance aberrational Christian with an all-pervasive religion that systemically commits evil and always has, is superlative intellectual dishonesty.

Dan says:

12:56am | 09/04/11

Chris Ozman, that religion that you vilify, is it Christianity? I love how racists and Islamophobes lack the guts to identify their targets!

Sad Sad Reality says:

05:13pm | 07/04/11

Yeah. I’m sure he restrained himself till she was nine. That’s the “official” story.

As the Ayatollah Khomeini put it:
“A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, other sexual acts such as foreplay, rubbing, kissing and sodomy is allowed. A man having intercourse with a girl younger than nine years of age has not committed a crime, but only an infraction, if the girl is not permanently damaged. If the girl, however, is permanently damaged, the man must provide for her all her life. But this girl will not count as one of the man’s four permanent wives. He also is not permitted to marry the girl’s sister.”

Sounds reasonable in 2011.

Seano says:

06:47pm | 07/04/11

Of course the majority of the few comments are in complete disagreement and those disagreeing with Feiz have been rated up and those agreeing have been rated down.

But lets just focus on what one idiot has to say and ignore and ostracise the vast majority who disagree because that’s obviously the sensible approach.

darragh scully says:

08:32pm | 07/04/11

Not True. Jesus is God and God Commanded the Jews, The Muslims and all the others to do all the things they do. And he also mass murdered heaps of us with floods, plauges and so on and so forth.
Go figure.

Complaints department: take a number and join the Que.

Bushra says:

08:49pm | 07/04/11

Jon, Please justify your comments with actual references from the Quran. Muhammad was not such a person. He was the Prohet of God, just like Jesus, and preached only peace and love. If someone used to slap him on side of his face, he used to turn his face the other way and present the other side. He was such a person that during wars, he used to forgive all fugitives, give them necessary help and set them free. Muhammad and his teachings have even been mentioned in the Bible : http://www.alislam.org/books/in-bible/index.html

Dan says:

12:04am | 08/04/11

Apologists; by using that term, you have lost any right to be taken seriously.

Anyway Muhammad was a warrior.

Jon says:

08:51am | 08/04/11

Bushra@ Please read the below, I see no point in restating the obvious!

G. David says: 06:33pm | 07/04/11
N.J. Dawood’s Penguin Classics translation of the Koran has at least one relevant passage:

“When you meet the unbelievers in the battlefield strike off their heads.” (Sura 47, Verse 4)

Sad Sad Reality says: 04:06pm | 07/04/11
8:12- “I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off.”

Please read Islamic Jihad by M.A. Khan, you will get a different view him and there are more other books on this topic.

Jon says:

09:16am | 08/04/11

Dan@ The first victims of Muhammad were Muslims. There is nothing in the true history of him that I have read shows him to be warrior, a mercenary perhaps and I am sure his many thousands of victims wouldn’t have thought so. The Victors always rewrite history as it was with Islam.

Jesus says:

04:43pm | 08/04/11

Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord (Genesis 6:5, 8).

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/really-a-flood-and-ark

These verses speak for themselves. Every human being on the face of the earth had turned after the wickedness in their own hearts, but Noah, because of his righteousness before God, was spared from God’s judgment, along with his wife, their sons, and their wives. As a result of man’s wickedness, God sent judgment on all mankind. As harsh as the destruction was, no living person was without excuse.

God also used the Flood to separate and to purify those who believed in Him from those who didn’t. Throughout history and throughout the Bible, this cycle has taken place time after time: separation, purification, judgment, and redemption.

Without God and without a true knowledge and understanding of Scripture, which provides the true history of the world, man is doomed to repeat the same mistakes over and over again.

David says:

04:48pm | 08/04/11

The Plauges of egypt.
This is how to project power Omnicently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plagues_of_Egypt

Dan says:

12:54am | 09/04/11

Jon, they weren’t ‘victims,’ and you’re wrong. The first people he killed were not Muslims, they were pagans, and they were killed during war.

” There is nothing in the true history of him that I have read shows him to be warrior,”

Oh, yes, since you are such an expert.

“a mercenary perhaps and I am sure his many thousands of victims wouldn’t have thought so.”

All warriors have ‘victims.’

’ The Victors always rewrite history as it was with Islam.’

Please, you have no idea what you’re talking about.

Jon says:

08:13am | 09/04/11

Dan@ What surprises me are how easy it is to come to a conclusion about religion in general and Islam in particular. There are plenty of experts who believe in this absurdity, so I’m proud not to be one of them.

But it makes feel just better justify this form of God Delusion, knock yourself out!

Seano says:

09:33am | 08/04/11

Talk about dumb dude, there’s plenty of that stuff in the old Testament and there are plenty of Christians who take that as the literal word of God. Now go and fight some wars over resources in areas populated by those sorts of Christians and see what the result is.

We should be embracing the majority of moderates rather than isolating them for fear of the small percentage of loonies.

Jon says:

12:40pm | 08/04/11

How do you know that?

Dieter Moeckel says:

11:14am | 08/04/11

The fifth of Ten Commandments: “I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me.” Make of it what you want Ryan.
There are heaps of stonings in the Bible too fella ... Can there be anything more horrific than Killing the entire population of Soodom and Gomorrah, not to the mention drowning the entire human race.
And bugga me - Adam and Eve transgressed - now ALL women have to give birth in pain and all men have live by the labours and sweat of his brow - what for nicking a lousy apple and hiding you genitals and nipples.

Dieter Moeckel says:

11:14am | 08/04/11

The fifth of Ten Commandments: “I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me.” Make of it what you want Ryan.
There are heaps of stonings in the Bible too fella ... Can there be anything more horrific than Killing the entire population of Soodom and Gomorrah, not to the mention drowning the entire human race.
And bugga me - Adam and Eve transgressed - now ALL women have to give birth in pain and all men have live by the labours and sweat of his brow - what for nicking a lousy apple and hiding you genitals and nipples.

Ryan says:

11:52am | 08/04/11

@Dieter Moeckel: nice try, not too good though, you are assuming 1. that I am religious, 2. that there is any comparison.
Most certainly would these random pickings from the Christian bible be attributable if Christians were running around stoning women who had been raped, cutting off journalists heads, flying planes into buildings, bombing innocent people in bars and going off at people in the local KFC when the guy asked for bacon.

True Believer says:

01:56pm | 08/04/11

Dieter Mockel

Jesus never preached killing or hate of people. Only hatred of sin.

Christians follow the New Testament.  Jesus is the fulfillment of the Old Testament Law. 

He came to bring love, truth, salvation for those who repent and life for those who choose to follow Him.

What is done in His name, here or anywhere else which does not reflect His Word I would say are “Christian” in name only. He alone decides who is a Christian regardless of what people call themselves.

Ryan says:

11:54am | 08/04/11

Well right here in Australia if the left wing and Labor have their way.

Dan says:

09:34pm | 08/04/11

If it will annoy conservatives and racists, I hope Australia is next!

Ryan says:

11:34am | 11/04/11

@Dan: you don’t have to wait, just move to the UK and enjoy now, I suggest Bradford.

Hamish says:

02:13pm | 08/04/11

MarK, don’t you realise there’s a prevailing narrative that Tory’s trying to maintain. You can’t expect her to actually use real life examples to debate points. I’m sure based on Tory’s ‘interpretation’ of the Koran, she’ll happily conclude that the events you mention didn’t actually happen at all. Or if they did, they couldn’t possibly have involved muslims.

And, MarK, at least they didn’t behead her. Lucky girl really.

Mark says:

03:07pm | 08/04/11

I am going to make this point to every single female columnist until it sinks through, and I would hope every other reader does so as well. That any columnist, and especially female columnists, ignored the atrocity the Australian woman went through is a disgrace. That they would casually move on to another subject and act outraged is disgusting. What say you Tory? Going to dismiss what happened?

Thommo says:

04:58pm | 08/04/11

Tory’s problem is that she lives in a very sheltered little world, sipping lattes with so called intelligentsia, who fill her head with all sorts of waffle.

Dan says:

09:29pm | 08/04/11

Mark, what does this have to do with the topic? Do you want to know what makes me sick?  People like you who hijack a topic just to attack Islam!

Thommo, your problem is that you know little about anything. At all.

Mark says:

09:39am | 11/04/11

How am I attacking Islam Dan? Did you even read my posts? Seems like you didn’t, either that or you are OK with what happened with the australian woman in the UAE. Is that the case? Certainly Tory’s silence is deafening.

muslimah says:

10:25pm | 12/04/11

Thanks Andy. The anti-Islamic sentiment on here and other places on the net is truly unsettling. And when these people quote Daniel Pipes, Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller, I really start to worry.

Education is the key to solving this problem which is only exacerbated by ignorant people claiming they “know”.

A comment above mentioned that the Prophet Muhammad beheaded people. Excuse me? Reference? Read his biography in an actual book please, don’t rely on Google searches for knowledge. A good one is “Muhammad” by Martin Lings.

Do any of you Islam bashers know about his conquest of Mecca and the fact that he liberated tribes of people who had persecuted him and his followers for over 20 years?

And finally, Islam is not an ideology. Please see http://www.sandalaproductions.com/Blog/26-the-importance-of-being-ambiguous-or-the-sin-tax-of-ignoring-syntax.aspx