ICB: Are the permeate-free claims just out to milk you?

Michael says:

01:50pm | 18/07/12

I only care if some genius at a large chain supermarket decides to up the % of permeate in my milk so they can achieve a better $ yield whilst i get less MILK than i paid for.

I don’t buy milk for 1$ per litre because it is the first step in the plan to sell me permeate with a dash of milk in it.

M says:

02:06pm | 18/07/12

“why do you actually care if there is permeate in your milk? “

Taste.

Bertrand says:

04:24pm | 18/07/12

@Tory- as with your completely valid points on permeate, there is no real evidence that MSG is the demon it is made out to be.

Bertrand says:

04:52pm | 18/07/12

@Tory - high fructose corn syrup?

SydneyGirl says:

05:07pm | 18/07/12

Bertrand, HFCS is also a bit of a beat up. Its just a mix of carbohydrates.

The food industry like any other industry is driven by cost and the need for the product to last on the shelf. HFCS is cheap, easy to use and formulate. That’s pretty much why it is used.

The problem always is taste or in fancy food terms organoleptic properties.  Always hard to exactly mimic freshly prepared food. Mind you over time synthetic vanilla will appear to be the “real” vanilla for e.g.

neil says:

11:36pm | 18/07/12

Tory, Bertrand,

I have a 500g bag of MSG in my fridge, I got it of Ebay for $4. My friends can’t believe how good my vegi lasagna tastes, for that matter anything that does not have a protein base tastes much better with MSG.

LJ Dots says:

05:33pm | 18/07/12

I like how the same situation gives a different response.

My uncle is also a dairy farmer and I’ve had the fresh, pure, organic product straight from the cows I milked, just as nature intended - and found it is truly awful stuff. I still manage to enjoy my Bickfords iced coffee though, so I do feel your pain here pa_kelvin.

Mouse says:

06:25pm | 18/07/12

pa_kelvin, I too loved milk straight from the cow. In winter, straight from bucket to porridge bowl, yuuuuuummmyyyyy.  We used to have one bucket for milk, one for cream, one milk, one cream…  Pour the milk into the churner and turn the handle, for hours it seemed, and voila, the best cream in the world. Tastes nothing like the store bought cream, you could stand the spoon up in it, no whipping required! 

LJD, you poor soul, I cannot believe you didn’t like it! OMG, I would kill for it now but after many years of store bought, “low fat” milk it would probably give me a coronary!! lol
Don’t ya just miss the old days sometimes?    :o)

pa_kelvin says:

08:11pm | 18/07/12

@LJ I hope you mean by hand , and not,“as nature intended”.    
@Mouse Had my 80 something Mum uo from Melb a couple of weeks ago and we were talking of similar things…:) BTW enjoy your movie tomorrow.

Al says:

01:51pm | 18/07/12

So you would rather drink milk that does not contain all the components of milk (i.e. not whole milk as the permeate is part of that)?
I guess whole milk and pure milk arn’t the same to you.
Perhaps if it was a campaign to maintain the average ratios in the original product before processing there may be a basis for the argument of not having EXTRA permeate added.

HappyCynic says:

02:02pm | 18/07/12

When dairy farmers stop pastuerizing and homogenising their milk then they can call it pure, until then it’s all bullsh!t.

Speaking of bullsh*t, should this subject be I Call Cowsh*t?  I mean given the amount that’s kicked into your milk when cows are milked means you’re probably drinking some everytime you have a coffee or whatever

Mmmm flavour

Colin says:

02:31pm | 18/07/12

HappyCynic says: 02:02pm | 18/07/12:
“When dairy farmers stop pastuerizing and homogenising their milk then they can call it pure, until then it’s all bullsh!t…”

Since when does homogenising and pasteurising affect the “Purity” of the milk? It’s still milk - nothing added, nothing taken away (except for the added bonus that it doesn’t poison you with bad bacteria). I think your idea of what is “pure” is a tad skewed…

MattyC says:

03:45pm | 18/07/12

Bang on Alice Gorman. Lion, Parmalat et al produce home brand milk for the retailers at a very low margin and have seen volume of their branded milk disappear significantly. They know that prices cant stay down down if the retailers want a permeate free house brand milk.

This is all about food companies trying to claw back their product position.

Darren says:

03:54pm | 18/07/12

Pastuerising the milk is simply heating it up to kill any bugs. Homogenising stops the milk from seperating. Its done by passing the milk though a centrifuge and removing the heavier fats. They can then be added back in so the milk remains an emulsion.
Oldies will remember that we used to have to shake the bottle because the fat would seperate out.

I grew up on a dairy farm, but can’t stand the stuff. My brother, on the other hand would neck 2L a day from a jug dipped in the vat.

Chris says:

04:42pm | 18/07/12

It seems that a couple of you have no idea what pasteurisation does.  Do you actually think it removes the “bad bugs” so milk “doesn’t kill you”?

I imagine you also believe that taking anti-biotics has no negative impact on your overall gut flora/fauna situation, because only the “bad bugs” die?

Pasteurisation kills milk.  Yes - the bad bugs die.  But so does everything else.  So what was designed to be a wonderful nutritious drink is reduced to something that is actually bad for you.

I won’t rant on - I’m sure you can look it up if you care to.  I’m just surprised that people know so little about the results of pasteurisation.

C

PsychoHyena says:

04:43pm | 18/07/12

@Darren, I’m under 30 and I shake the cartons of milk, even though I don’t need to, but then when I was younger we used to have a dairy-farm based milkman deliver the milk.

Maggierose says:

05:17pm | 18/07/12

Maybe I’m wrong, but could it be that the cheap milk - which I refuse to buy - comes from China?  everything else does!!!!!!

Vicki PS says:

05:49pm | 18/07/12

@Chris:  I can go with your claims about pasteurisation to a point, but how on earth do you come up with the notion that pasteurised milk is “actually bad for you”?  Worse than TB or brucellosis, or just middle-class-alternate-health-nutter worse?

M. Mouse says:

12:14am | 19/07/12

The farmers don’t do it, the big dairies do! I’ve worked both as a dairy farm manager, relief milker and doing chemical and microbiological testing of milk for one of the big dairies.  The stuff they do to turn a lovely product into absolute “healthy” rubbish would put most people off milk for life. You may as well put water on your cereal. Oh for the days when I could put the milk straIght from the cow into my coffee during morning milking, skim off the cream from the tank for my porridge and completeley ignore all those silly health warnings about the real thing! Yum!

Chris says:

08:18am | 19/07/12

Hi Vicki,

Too much information to put into a post really on why pasteurisation actually makes milk worse for you, rather than just rendering it neutral.

On TB and other diseases - obviously milk must be clean, whether it is raw milk or otherwise.  However, as I hope most would agree, we’ve come a long way since 1862 so many of the diseases that were sought to be protected from are now minimal in terms of exposure and risk.  The controls about hygiene during the collection process, as well as the quality and conditions of the livestock itself, are far superior to what they were then.  Surely we are now able to produce a controlled product without requiring it to be arbitrarily pasteurised?  There may be countries where that cannot occur - but this isn’t one of them.

Here’s just a few points about pasteurisation:

1) It destroys all of the good bacteria as well as the bad.  As with breast milk for infants, the reason raw milk is actively good for you is because of the fact that it is live with beneficial bacteria that protect from illness and assist digestion in the gut.  Getting rid of it removes that benefit.

2) The process renders a significant portion of the calcium content of the milk insoluble.  That limitation, in turn, impacts upon the absorbtion of both vitamin D and phosphorus, as well as obviously causing issues with deficiencies in calcium itself if a significant expected RDI of it is coming from the milk.  If your body can’t absorb it - you’re not getting it.  It’s the equivalent of me eating a pebble each day in order to get my basic mineral requirements.  They might be there - but I’m not getting any benefit from them.  It also partially destroys the vitamin C content of the raw milk.

3) It renders the lactose into a different form, which is absorbed more quickly rather than providing longer term energy.  That, as with many “fast energy” foods will have an impact on both weight, energy, ability to focus, and hunger itself.

That’s all I can get into at the moment.  At some stage I have to actually do work…

C

Kassandra says:

12:00pm | 19/07/12

Hi Chris

Pasteurisation of milk eliminates over 90% of harmful microorganisms (not only bacteria). This also prolongs the shelf life of refrigerated milk before it sours. Pasteurisation was originally developed to prevent wine and beer from souring. Harmful organisms in milk include tuberculosis and Q fever amongst others, here is a list of the most notable:
Brucella abortus;
Campylobacter jejuni;
Campylobacter coli;
Coxiella burnetii;
Pathogenic Escherichia coli (0157:H7);
Listeria monocytogenes;
Mycobacterium tuberculosis;
Mycobacterium bovis;
Salmonella enterica serotypes;
Streptococcus pyogenes; and
Yersinia enterocolitica.

OzFoodNet, the national database for foodborne disease in Australia, has no documented reports of any outbreaks of enteric infection in Australia between 2000 and 2004 due to the consumption of pasteurised milk. However, there have been several outbreaks of enteric infection in Australia in recent years due to the consumption of unpasteurised milk. This has also been the pattern in other Western countries, such as the USA and the UK.
Source: <http://www.foodstandards.gov.au/_srcfiles/Scientific Evaluation.pdf>

Human breast milk is good for babies not because of bacteria but the immunoglobulins it contains, amongst other things.

Over to you.

I hate pies says:

02:29pm | 18/07/12

It’s the same as when ACA tell you that ham is bad because it has had water (pickle) added; with out the pickle it is pork

ibast says:

02:34pm | 18/07/12

It’s not snobish to not watch ACA, it’s just knowing when someone is lying to you.

You do realise that just about every story on ACA is sponsored?  That is why your observation about permeate is correct.

Dodgy kebab story?  I wonder who could be sponsoring that one?  New diet story, etc, etc.

nihonin says:

01:40pm | 18/07/12

I’ll wait for the permeate reduced or permeate light milks.

Fred Bloggs says:

02:37pm | 18/07/12

Yeah, we’ve got dropkicks like that who visit us and wouldn’t touch our triple filtered (UV, 5micron, coconut fibre) tank water, but will instead happily consume their city water that’s laced with so many carcinogenic substances that it should be classified as a severe health risk

Trumpster says:

03:39pm | 18/07/12

Yes, how dare those nasty regulators harrass those clean, green raw milk vendors that just happen to be selling potentially lethal (unpasteurised) milk.

Idiot.

Chris says:

04:17pm | 18/07/12

I said below I wasn’t going to go on a rant about this topic… but since it’s come up.

Trumpster - please identify the number of deaths or serious illness resulting from the consumption of raw milk in the last 5 years for me.

Then compare it to the issues arising from the consumption of, say, lettuce.

Even Louis himself was of the view that pasteurisation should only be a temporary solution to a specific problem.  Many years later… we’re still doing it.

Rather than milk being a beneficial and highly nutritious foodstuff, the pasteurisation process renders it pretty much bad for you, with precious few associated benefits.

Foolish comments like that spread misinformation about the nature and impact of raw milk, with no justification.  Lots of good books on the topic if you care to educate yourself.

C

HappyCynic says:

04:38pm | 18/07/12

@Trumpster

I drank unpasteurised milk during my whole childhood and never had a single adverse reaction to it.  All this fear surrounding raw milk is bullsh!t.  There is a tiny chance of some harmful bacteria (e-coli and listeria usually) being present in unpasteurised milk but you’re far more likely to get food poisoning from other sources.  Hell uncooked chicken is more dangerous than unpasteurised milk.

Vicki PS says:

12:07am | 19/07/12

@Chris: Are you one of the anti-vaccination mob as well?  They’ve put out lots of good books too, I believe, using similar syllogisms.  My grandparents drank raw milk until it was finally illegal to sell it, and they drank tank water, too.  My grandmother started going gaga in her 50s and died in her early 70’s, totally senile.  My grandfather lived longer, but he, too, was completely off his perch.  So, does my anecdotal evidence trump your “go and read one of these fine books which I won’t provide references for” gambit?  (BTW, I remember raw milk—most of the time it tasted weird, and was usually on the edge of souring.  And tank water tastes of metal).

Chris says:

08:05am | 19/07/12

Hi Vicki,

Vaccines is another topic for another day (or the many times we’ve discussed it on this site in the past).

However, in relation to milk (and any other topic, for that matter) my preferred resources are books that reference their assertions so that I can understand the basis for them and how reliable they are.

Also - just in case there was any doubt, a cat has four legs, my dog has four legs, therefore my dog is a cat.

C

Cynicised says:

11:36am | 19/07/12

There seems to be a lot of argument re raw milk which comes from cheese manufacturers these days. In France the best tasting cheeses are made from raw milk and not refrigerated. The French are horrified by what we call cheese here, made with pasteurised milk and refrigerated.. They say it’s dead and not cheese at all. However, campylobacter and e-coli are very nasty bugs and can be found occasionally in soft cheeses made from raw milk, such as Camembert and Brie.

Somehow, I think I’d rather the “dead” stuff. I’ve had e-coli food poisoning and it is the PITS! Wouldn’t wish it on my worst enemy- and it can kill kids or the elderly.

Al says:

02:04pm | 18/07/12

Skim milk froths up more as due to the reduced fat content it actualy has a slightly lower density which alows the frothing to put more air into it befor it colapses under it own weight.

M says:

02:08pm | 18/07/12

Still tastes like watered down milk though.

Elphaba says:

02:18pm | 18/07/12

Aha, that’s why.  Anyway, it always looked frothier and much better in the cup.

Bertrand says:

03:10pm | 18/07/12

Chicken advertised as hormone free really pisses me off. All chicken in Australia contains no added hormones and has done so for decades.

Elphaba says:

03:44pm | 18/07/12

Bertrand, yep.  Since the 60s, I think.

Chris says:

04:21pm | 18/07/12

Although it froths “better” (ie - more) the quality of the froth is actually poorer.

Full cream milk gives a more dense, yummy froth, which is what barista’s aim for.  Skim froths more - but it’s airy and just takes like bath bubbles.

C

Mouse says:

07:23pm | 18/07/12

Chris, and you know how bath bubbles taste?  lol
I do agree with you about full ceam milk, frothing and taste though.  :o)

Chris says:

07:56am | 19/07/12

Hi Mouse,

I’m pretty sure Starbucks use bath bubbles instead of milk froth, don’t they?

C

stevem says:

02:13pm | 18/07/12

The permeate is what is left when they process milk to remove the cream, butterfat, and whey solids. What is left is watery waste that cost a lot of money to get rid of. Then they came up with the idea of watering down “whole” milk with the permeate. They end up with more “whole” milk and less waste to dispose of - a win-win for the producer.

miloinacup says:

02:56pm | 18/07/12

I saw the low-fat Zymil milk that had a massive “Permeate free” sticker on it…Zymil is meant to be lactose free, so does that mean there was permeate in it before? (I’ve been buying that brand milk for a while and I only saw this sticker 2 days ago)

Al says:

03:19pm | 18/07/12

miloinacup - it was probably always ‘permeate free’, it just wasn’t worth the money to advertise it as such previously.
If it says ‘Now permeate free’ (or similar) then it probably did have it previously.

miloinacup says:

03:33pm | 18/07/12

Al - cheers. I thought it was a bit weird because it was only the low-fat one that had the sticker on it, and not the other two types. I’d assume none of them have it since it is meant to be lactose free, but I suppose jumping on the trendy bandwagon might get them a few more customers.

Admiral Ackbar says:

04:27pm | 18/07/12

“And people wonder why they are getting fat these days!”

I’m pretty sure it’s not the milks fault, and people are still getting fat because they make bad decisions regarding the quantity and quality of food they eat. It’s not the corporations, it’s not advertising, and it’s not the supermarkets that make people fat, they make their own decisions.

Kaz says:

05:13pm | 18/07/12

@Admiral - you can’t make your own decisions when food companies withhold information about the content of what you are eating or drinking.

Michael says:

02:13pm | 18/07/12

It isn’t disgusting, it disgusts you, very subjective you see?

M says:

03:29pm | 18/07/12

And i’ll never understand why anyone would want to save their purity until marriage, but I live and let live.

Sahara says:

02:28pm | 18/07/12

I have to agree.  I’m one who detests food fads and am on a personal mission to remind the rest of the world that the words “organic” and “free range” are not necessarily interchangeable with the words “good quality” or “tastier”.

However permeate free milk does taste better. It has a far richer and fuller taste than the $1 milks at the supermarkets.

Thomas Dux sell a permeate free milk for $2.30 for 2 litres and for the extra 30 cents it beats the supermarket milk in any taste test

M says:

03:26pm | 18/07/12

Honestly, I’m never buying anything else from now on. I’ve never drank anything but fullcream for reasons of taste, and the new stuff is better again.

Also, I’m of the opinion that if you’ve switched to low fat milk for weight reasons, there’s probably more wrong with your diet than just your milk intake. I’ve drank full cream for years and only put on weight when I eat other shit.

E says:

04:17pm | 18/07/12

It tastes the same to me! We brought it in place of the Pauls Smarter White (usual brand - none available on the day) and it tastes the same….marketing ploy me thinks. They tell you it tastes different = your brain tells you it tastes different but really - it;s all the same.

M says:

05:51am | 19/07/12

Trust me, it tastes different. Creamier and fuller. q

Peter says:

06:05pm | 18/07/12

You got cows? Why didnt you tell us? People like me would have then read your article from a different perspective knowing that if she has cows, then she must know.

ME says:

12:12pm | 19/07/12

The same reason beef isnt called cow and pork isnt called pig.
It might mean we call a spade, a spade or something. Tell it like it is people. But mostly coz through the processing of these substances, by products are variants of the process, so hence called something else. Just to confuse us.

PsychoHyena says:

04:09pm | 18/07/12

@Robyn, actually if you’re lactose intolerant, like yours truly, then permeate free is better for you. Aside from which, after doing some research on the permeate I’ve gotten a much better idea as to why it is that a carton of milk I bought one day can taste like it’s sour while a carton (with a relative expiry date to the first) will taste perfectly fine.

Thankfully I only drink the lactose free… sweeter tasting (because the lactose is broken down), less time bloated and more time to do the important things in life.

Kaz says:

05:26pm | 18/07/12

Adding sugar water to milk in order to reduce the protein and fat content does not make it better for you!

Elizabeth says:

09:14am | 24/07/12

Have to agree with Moojooce,
I still only drink milk straight from the cow ,I get milk delivered from a farm once a week (6lts) and its still good when the next lot arrives.
I can’t have Homogenized milk,the moment I drink shop bought milk I get loads of phelgm & find it hard to breathe at times,but drinking straight from the cow I’m fine.
I’m coming 68 & have had Fresh milk most of my life,permeates & all & have had NO illeffects from it at all.
Why mess with something, killing all the goodness that’s naturally in it.

Elizabeth says:

09:16am | 24/07/12

I’d be more worried about whats Not in your milk.

neil says:

11:46pm | 18/07/12

It’s not bad for anyones health either.

Imagine a commercial enterprise attempting to improve their bottom line by using cheaper ingredients and maintaining acceptable taste without risking their customers health.

Those criminals!

Next you will be telling us that chicken nuggarts aren’t made from pure free range chicken breasts fried in extra virgin olive oil.

Ridge says:

04:29pm | 19/07/12

First two sentences sum it up perfectly.  Although I’ve heard ‘organic’ milk sold in Australia is UHT, which tastes like crap.

David says:

09:01am | 19/07/12

My old medical professor used to teach that ‘’ MILK IS ONLY GOOD FOR BABIES AND LITTLE CALVES ‘’ .

M says:

09:53am | 19/07/12

And I’m of anglo saxon origin, which means I have the gene for processing milk. And you know what? I love the stuff.

Michael says:

08:22am | 19/07/12

Because we can is my guess at why, same as eating/making cheese…because we can, beer too, no other aniimals make beer but many drink/eat fermenting fruit and get both nourishment and a high from it.

There are literally countless things we do as a species that are unique to us but the same can be said for almost all creatures…they are unique in many ways.

From that point of view, what isn’t strange?

Elizabeth says:

09:22am | 24/07/12

Too true! Why does everything need to be processed to be good?

Elizabeth says:

09:32am | 24/07/12

Milk will never be permeate free unless they take it all out of the milk as its a natural ingredient of fresh milk,it only comes about when making cheese,the Permeate or Whey is left over & made into other products,( for human & animal consumption) no need to add it back into fresh milk,leave our milk alone.