Sharia should never be part of Australian law. In fact, Australian authorities should be making more concerted attempts to get to grips with sharia law as it is already practised in Australia, and to make sure that the benefits of a secular democracy are better understood in migrant communities.

C'mon, let's hug and make up. Pic: Craig Greenhill


First of all, though, let’s just be clear that what the Australian Federation of Islamic Councils has proposed in its submission to a multiculturalism inquiry is not about stoning women for adultery or lopping off hands for stealing. What they’re talking about – at this point – is family law; divorces and marriages.

And when AFIC says (in today’s news reports) that they want Government support for a wider spread of schools and halal shops to stop ‘enclaves’ forming, they’re not talking about empire building, but about community support.

It’s important to get that in early, because there’s a lot of hysteria around about what some see as the latest attempt to Islamicise Australia.

That said, we live in a democracy that for all its flaws is the best model we have, and introducing any parallel systems to please a minority is a path that will not lead to better social cohesion, but to a deepening of the chasm between Muslims and non-Muslims.

There is no doubt that a chasm exists, and Australia needs to face it and overcome it through frank and fearless discussion. Non-hysterical discussion.

Hence the need to make the following points:

1. Sharia law (particularly on inheritance, marriage and divorce) is to an extent already practised in Australia, and some advocates would like to see it incorporated into Australian law – so it would apply only to Muslims, and would theoretically clarify the laws. Some argue it would even deliver better support to women.

2. The AFIC submission itself is a moderate if dense and historically based piece of work. It is on a par with a Christian call for their values to be incorporated in our legal system. It’s not a call for a Caliphate.

3. The report today that AFIC want broader Government support for schools (all schools already get some support) and for halal shops is because AFIC spokeswoman Heba Ibrahim says it would help Muslim Australians move into the broader community, rather than gather in existing Muslim ‘enclaves’.

So the proposition is not as extreme as some would have you believe.

But still; it is a proposition that must be rejected outright. And not just because sharia law as it is practised in many countries is an instrument of violence and oppression.

Tolerance is a good thing; moral relativism is something else altogether.

There is such a thing as universal human rights; it is valid and valuable to treasure what we have in our liberal democracy, and to wish the same for other people (and to use what international clout we have to push for better societies without resorting to imperialism).

One of the most important parts of our society is that it is secular; that despite including many beliefs and indeed creating better laws to stop discrimination on the basis of religion or race, we allow none (in theory, mind) to influence our legislation.

Despite Australia’s Aboriginal and then Judaeo-Christian heritage, we are successfully secular despite various religions’ attempts to infiltrate and influence our Governments and our laws.

We need to keep fighting, however, to maintain that secularism. And that means keeping sharia – and any other religion – out.

The AFIC submission highlights that Australia is doing a brisk and increasing trade in Islamic finance and halal foods – they point to that as support for the argument that there is room for Islam within the existing structures.

The difference is while these may be underpinned by accreditation and therefore legislation, they are ultimately market-driven products controlled by our laws, not changes to the law that could control us – and by us, I mean any Australian.

The Australian Government is right to reject sharia law, and it must continue to do so without looking as though it is rejecting Islam; and at the same time the Islamic representative bodies must continue to advocate for their people without looking like they are rejecting Australia’s laws.

592 comments

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    • Erick says:

      06:04am | 18/05/11

      May I be the first to scream, “RAAAAAAACIIIIST!!1!”

      Because that’s what we get when anyone dares to question Islam.

    • Richo says:

      07:21am | 18/05/11

      Agreed. I do not wantt their sharia law here. I actually want it outlawed, it makes muslims and their law needs above the needs of the majority of Australians.

    • No 1 Rosie says:

      07:29am | 18/05/11

      May I be the first to say; “leave that chasm that divides them from us the way it is when it comes to sharia law. You give them an inch they will take a mile. If ever sharia becomes law, allow the catholics to have their law, marry a catholic you become a catholic and so all your children etc. Then we have the laws of other religions. This is becoming bloody ridiculous.

    • Craig says:

      07:36am | 18/05/11

      Absolutely agree with Erick. If I went to a muslim country, I’d be expected to follow their laws & respect local traditions and the culture. I would never presume to start suggesting I should have special laws that just applied to me & people of my religion or nationality. This is not ‘racist’ as I don’t care what country a person is from, or what race a person is. I believe that anyone coming to this country or born here for that matter that expects laws to change just for them & those of their religion or nationality have some bloody cheek actually.  We are not a Muslim country, we will NEVER be a muslim country. Please don’t attempt to water down or change our laws just to suit yourself. The law here in Australia applies to EVERYONE. Why should family law for muslims be any different to family law for Christians, Hindus, Jews, Chinese, Greeks,  etc who live here? Anyone coming to this country really should in my opinion, respect the laws of the land and not expect that they deserve to be exempt from a law that applies to everyone else simply because of their religion. If our laws don’t suit your lifestyle - then feel free to go back to where you came or move to another country, where the laws are more to your liking. And before the tedious old chestnut of “racist” is trundled out…. I’d say the same to people of any faith or nationality who expected special laws in any country just to suit them self. One final note. I would have thought the Muslim faith here in Australia would be doing it’s level-best to try and assimilate into the community and show (quite correctly!) that their religion is a religion of peace..and that their religion’s name has unfortunately been used by a few radical fringe lunatics to perpetrate some horrible crimes against innocent people around the world, including fellow Muslims. Pushing for special laws just for Muslims in the area of Family Law is probably not a terribly clever PR move at the moment. Rightly or wrongly.. the term “Sharia Law” is associated with people being stoned to death, losing hands, fingers and feet etc. All of which are seen as slightly over the top punishments here in Australia. So a move like this is not exactly aiding in presenting the Muslim religion as a moderate faith. I know Muslims here are not for a moment suggesting stoning of women who divorce etc…but really…how about everyone just respecting Australian Law as it is & enjoying what we are all lucky enough to share in this country?

    • Budz says:

      07:37am | 18/05/11

      I’m pretty sure over 99% of Australians including me don’t want Sharia Law. And that’s fine. But I still believe in Muslim’s right to request it, even though we disagree with it.

    • Chris says:

      07:42am | 18/05/11

      I love how you can read a piece so respectful and balanced calling for respect and balance, yet undermine in a heartbeat it by chucking out a passive aggressive comment designed to start a racism argument. Well done sir. Today’s scout badge for humanity hath been earnt.

    • Mahhrat says:

      07:48am | 18/05/11

      I was thinking the same thing.

      More to the point, I was considering that I have enough trouble following one set of laws. let along two.

    • Phil says:

      08:06am | 18/05/11

      Erick I thought exactly the same thing. Tory and anyone apposed to Sharia Law will be shot down as a racist by the lefty brigade who wish to pander to any minority.
      It is in their plan though they are slowly taking over by stealth. By having many more children than our fellow Australians, they are slowly increasing their percentage of the population.

    • Dee says:

      08:25am | 18/05/11

      The begining of the end of Australian life. I would love to know how both Gillard and Abbott feel about this.

    • Direct says:

      08:39am | 18/05/11

      Erick, I thought you’d support Sharia in the family court. Children being able to decide which parent they want to go to at age 7, only paying child support until the child is weened… sounds much better than the current arrangements Australian men suffer under.

    • Phil Ebbott says:

      08:42am | 18/05/11

      Sharia law is Church Law. It is no different the catholic Canons or anything else. If it is being used to sort out Church based problems, or even problems between members of the same church, then No problems. If you bother to read any of it, some of it makes a lot of sense. I agree that some more extreme elements of sharia exist, but has anyone read the “Eye for an Eye” bit in the Bible. Sharia, practised in the Islam church, by mebers of the Islam faith is no problem. If there is no breach of local laws, then no problem. In fact the Magna Carta, the very basis of our western Democracy, decrees quite clearly that the state is not to intefer with a Church and Vice Versa. Leave these people to there faith in peace.

    • fml says:

      09:23am | 18/05/11

      Doth protest too much Erick,

      Tory is making a mountain out of a mole hill, It will never happen, its not even a chasm, its barely a difference. Even the article on the main site says its only 300 people.

      But continue on anyway, im too hung over to argue, much.

    • Erick says:

      09:38am | 18/05/11

      @Direct - Sharia law is definitely better for men than Australian law, but it is still oppressive to everyone in its general rules. It is also quite unfair to women.

      Feminist law is biased against men, and sharia law is biased against women. I would prefer a middle path, with laws that are fair to both sexes.

    • Adam says:

      09:38am | 18/05/11

      I often wonder why these people try to implement the failed ideals that often drove them to Australia in the first place. Why not just go live in a muslim country if this is what they want. Furthermore, I wonder why they ask for sharia to be legislated; surely if both parties to a conflict are muslim and feel sharia is appropriate they can follow it in principle despite it not being law.

    • vince Moore says:

      10:08am | 18/05/11

      Do not under any circumstance believe that Muslims are anything else but racist biggotted fanatics. They start off being moderate until they are 50% of the argument even if that takes 100 years. then all bets are off.  Never loose sight of the seperation of State and religion. Any religion. Never the twain shall mix .

    • Blackmambo says:

      10:54am | 18/05/11

      Thank you,

      I agree with your argument but youmake some bad errors of fact:

      1. “Some argue it would even deliver better support to women.” - Most argue the opposite. Indeed, Sharia is very popular in UK for men who will convert to Islam to use it’s anti-wife, anti-mother services.

      2. Subjective view of thir submission, others wood argue it is imoderate. I would.

      3. Tax dollars should fund halal shops? Like they fund jewish bakeries and Hindu bang shops?

      4. “There is such a thing as universal human rights” - well, yes we educated rich westerners would like to think so but regrettably our beliefs are not shared by all others. Think Burma. Think North Korea. But on topic, take a look at any muslim country in the world, - any muslim country - and ask Amnesty International what their views are. Islam does not believe in universal human rights. Non muslims enjoy far fewer rights in muslim countries. Women in Isalm enjoy less rights than men, particularly under Sharia law.

    • Bruce says:

      10:58am | 18/05/11

      Don’t like the legal system in Australia. Suggest you go to a country that is more of a fit with your beliefs.

    • Adam says:

      11:32am | 18/05/11

      I’ve just done a bit of searching and cannot find a single islamic democracy that is anywhere near as successful Australia (in terms of law, government and human rights). To me, this suggests either their ideals are incompatable with our own form of democracy or we simply already have a better way of doing things. Particularly when looked at in the context of time; Australia has had 200 years to build a successful democractic state, Islamic states have had much longer and still failed. As such, I would say it is unwise to adopt the ideals of islam in law, government and human rights. Such ideals are already second rate when compared to our pre-existing ideals (or complete failures, depending on how you want to look at it).

    • Chris L says:

      12:00pm | 18/05/11

      Funny how the right wingers are agreeing with Tory, yet still want to have a jab at “the lefty brigade”. It’s just not right wing if there isn’t resentment.

    • L. says:

      12:00pm | 18/05/11

      “I’ve just done a bit of searching and cannot find a single islamic democracy that is anywhere near as successful Australia (in terms of law, government and human rights)”

      Turkey is the closest I can think of.

    • L. says:

      12:05pm | 18/05/11

      “FML…you are a smarmy, patronizing pedant. We are all cognitively able to discern what Elizabeth means. Instead of being so bloody condescending, reply to her POINT, rather than her conveyance.”

      Sure, I will..

      The shops are own by muslims, and they are free to address their target market in any legal way they see fit.

      How’s that for a reply to her point?

    • Bwahaha says:

      12:41pm | 18/05/11

      We are supposed to be a secular state where freedom of religion is tolerated. However with the shift to the right over the last decade and a half we’ve got greater government religious intervention in schools, and greater government funding of such ideas as well.

      School chaplains anyone? Government funding of Catholic Schools? So much for a secular society…. and the richest organization in the world, the Catholic Church, is raking in the dough from our own pay packets.

      What are they, a church or a bunch of communists?

      Without discussing the merits (if any) of either religion, this is the precedent that Howard forced wide open. Now we cannot legally encourage and fund one without supporting the other, anti discrimination being what it is.

      A more obvious solution would be to cut funding for religious activities - religious education, marriages and the like.

      None of them are requirements for our society to function in the way that the great majority who do not regularly attend church (some 95% of our population) wish.

      Ask Germany of France how well they have gone at adapting their societies to an influx of muslims. Even at low percentages of the population the demands of the more radical islamists amongs the muslim community are diametrically opposed with their secular democracies.

      Hopefully, a few of those in power here might wish to also review the long term consequences of the Gastarbeiter influx in germany and pull back hard on the reigns of the Mining Magnates determined to get their labour a bit cheaper for greater profit.

      The long term consequences for whole-of-society can run into the tens of billions to clean up the consequences of a handful of people’s personal profits.

    • AJW says:

      01:06pm | 18/05/11

      Going slightly off topic and based more on the bigger problem at hand; is it true (someone correct me if I’m wrong) that there are Muslim-exclusive schools and public pools being built in Australia?

      If that’s the case - can someone tell me; are we back in the days where white people were seperated from black? I thought we’d advanced from that. Then again, we aren’t to blame.
      How racist is it to exclude an entire group of people? Not as bad as when the exclude themselves and attack us for not agreeing.

      If I was to go to a muslim country and wear a skimpy outfit, I’d probably be stoned to death. If I wanted to start an exclusive Christian school, I’d probably be killed for that too.

      I don’t understand why the government has to be so weak - if you want to migrate to a new country, you adapt. To the laws, the culture and language. I’m not saying you have to abandon all your fundamental beliefs and routines, pray whenever you like, but accept the fact that we aren’t a Muslim country and stop forcing it on us.

      I can’t believe that women wearing a burka can refuse to show their face to a POLICE OFFICER if they’re a male. Is this honestly a joke? And they can wear the full face veil in identification photographs?

      A few months back watching the ABC I listened to Muslim women saying how they were judged, attacked and ridiculed for the Burka and how it’s just as oppressing to ban it as it is to enforce them TO wear it.

      I could type for hours, days, about how bullshit I think it is - but until someone in power actually stands up for Australia, we’re pretty much losing our own definitive characteristics. We’re no longer ‘multicultural’ - we’re everything BUT Australian.

    • Adam says:

      01:51pm | 18/05/11

      @ L. - “Turkey is the closest I can think of.”

      It was the closest I could think of too. However, given the extra few hundred years they’ve had to sort things out and the fact they are still well and truly behind Australia, I’d say Australia definitely has a better way of doing things already. As such, I certainly wouldn’t be taking any lessons from Turkey (or any other Islamic state) on law, government or human rights.

    • Adam says:

      01:58pm | 18/05/11

      @ AJW - At the risk of going further off topic, don’t forget about women only gyms. Just imagine if a club that only allowed men in opened. The outcry would be huge!

      These lefty double standards make me sick and they have only serve to create a whole new class of people that are discriminated against.

    • AJW says:

      02:34pm | 18/05/11

      @Adam

      Where do you live? There IS an exclusive men-only gym/boxing ring literally 5 minutes from where I live…
      I don’t think sexist is going anywhere, it’s literally between two entities and we’re taking steps everyday to eliminating it.
      I think that religion is a much broader, destructive subject.

    • Adam says:

      03:02pm | 18/05/11

      @ AJW - There is no reason we can’t address all discrimination at once, whether it be of gender or religious origin.

      I also disagree with your statement “I think that religion is a much broader, destructive subject”. Gender applies to more people than religion. Also, if you are not sympathetic to my plight, why should I have any sympathy for yours?

      That being said, I do agree that muslim should not be allowed to segregate themselves using different swimming pools, etc.

    • Spart says:

      10:09pm | 18/05/11

      Ah…Turkey is actually secular.  Ataturk had seen how easily the peasants were influenced by the Imams and realized there was no way he. Oils modernize the country with those types of regressive influences.

    • Walter E. Kurtz says:

      11:32pm | 18/05/11

      “Absolutely agree with Erick. If I went to a muslim country, I’d be expected to follow their laws & respect local traditions and the culture. I would never presume to start suggesting I should have special laws that just applied to me & people of my religion or nationality.”
      —True, but when you and I go over there we get paid a lot of UAE, Saudi, etc. oil money and we watch these regimes treat the OTHER guest workers like slaves. You and I have our fortified neighborhoods, not a worry in the world. you and I make sure it stays that way, because it serves our interest..even though they are WAHHABI.

    • AJW says:

      09:39am | 19/05/11

      @Adam
      I completely agree that both discrimination and racism hold a strong presence in our society, but I think you misinterpreted the point I was making;
      Men and Woman are two entities. If that was our only problem, I think we’d be better off.
      There are hundreds of religions; many with conflicting ideologies and beliefs which therefore cause the situations such as the one this post is regarding. How many wars have been created through discrimination against women and men compared to how many have been started purely because of opposing religious beliefs?

      That being said, I am more than sympathetic to your plight. I’m glad you also disagree with the seperation of religious groups in such insignificant and unnecessary ways such as swimming pools…

      Going on a tagent; I read somewhere that we can’t pick and choose which religions start schools because there are so many christian schools in Australia. That’s because we are prodiminantely a christian/catholic school. I am the polar opposite of religious but I attended a catholic school, wasn’t baptised and attending religion classes was voluntary.

      Would I, a caucasian, non-religious 20 year old woman be welcome at a Muslim school?

    • Adam says:

      10:29am | 19/05/11

      @AJW - Gotcha point this time around and I see what you meant by “is a much broader, destructive subject”. Perhaps I was just being argumentative yesterday raspberry

      I agree with you wholeheartedly about religion. It seems these days “multiculturalism” means expecting mainstream society to bend over backwards to accommodate the views of whichever minority group bleats the loudest (their own pools, subsidised halal food, their own laws, etc). It pisses me off to no end. How about minority groups start fitting in with the views of mainstream society for a change (i.e. one law for everyone, pay to support your own ideals, integrate with society, learn the native language, etc). Is that too much to ask? They came to live in Australia because it was better than where they lived before. Why should we accommodate any of their failed ideals that destroyed their own country and forced them to move here? It seems these people are too obtuse to realise they are implementing the very ideals that made them leave their own sh*t-box countries and refusing to embrace the very ideals that attracted them to Australia and made it a successful country.

      “Would I, a caucasian, non-religious 20 year old woman be welcome at a Muslim school?”

      No. Perhaps you’d be accepted (if you kicked up a stink about discrimination), but you’d never be welcome.

    • AJW says:

      11:02am | 19/05/11

      @Adam
      Thanks, don’t worry - go over to ‘smokers deserve the right to die with dignity’ and search the posts from Ally Williams - I’ve never got so argumentative in my life.
      I agree 100%.
      The simple fact of the matter is if they move to Australia they have to adapt.
      To our laws, our customs, the people already here, the schools, everything. This isn’t a place you can come and conquer, deal with it or leave.
      Why can’t our politicians have backbones and implement the systems instead of being spineless creeps accommodating everyone’s needs except our own?

    • Adam says:

      01:32pm | 19/05/11

      @ AJW - Haha, yeah I saw some posts from Ms Ally Williams. You did get a little fired up, but a healthy level of conflict is a good thing in my eyes; it facilitates the robust exchange of ideas, forces people to critically examine their position on issues, stimulates thought and is the exact opposite of the sterile, no-one rock the boat, groupthink I so despise.

    • Rita says:

      09:02pm | 19/05/11

      Well, we already have different religious laws in Australia. We have catholic Tribunals for i.e.  marriage annulment. It is a bit of a funny statement that we are not a religious State. Of course we are. The Queen/king of Australia cannot be ... Catholic. We say prayers in the parliament and swear/put oath on the Bible. And if we want to be a tolerant society we have to tolerate other religions under the Australian Constitution and Australian Laws. We already have kosher/halal kiling animals. And I am not sure whether that is the Australlian law as well.
      We do tolerate circumscision and some other rites which are confined to a particular community. I can’t imagine catholics who cannot have eggs blessing at Easter time or Chinese celebrating New Year at other times.
      So far our system works well and rabbis and Catholic priests can solve some of the marital problems our system cannot. For example: our friend wanted to marry a guy who was divorced. Her family would not recognise the marriage unless it was a church wedding. She herself felt quite strong about it, too. She turned to her parish priest for help.
      It took a year for the Catholic Tribunal to grant the annulement of the grooms’ first marriage via Vatican.
      Some people may think it is not a big deal. But for people who want to keep their tradition and continue Christian tradition within their family - why not. Afterall for many young girls white wedding dress is not only for a photoshop. I cannot imagine that all of a sudden religious tribunals were outlawed. The federal Government could not grant any annulments.
      And I do agree that some ceremonies may not be legal under our system. They should be banned - female circumscision or civil punitive systems. Australian laws can take care of those.

    • AJW says:

      09:27am | 20/05/11

      @Adam
      That’s a positive way of looking at it, haha.
      In different circumstances I can imagine being friends with someone like you.

    • AJW says:

      09:27am | 20/05/11

      @Adam
      That’s a positive way of looking at it, haha.
      In different circumstances I can imagine being friends with someone like you.

    • sir ronald bradnam says:

      06:23am | 18/05/11

      Sharia law will never happen in austyralia for two reasons.
      1. There are far to many people something like 99.99999% of the population wont accept a stone age religion with stone age arhaic ridiculous freedom eroding laws.
      2. There is no such thing as Mohammed the sky fairy who controls lives and let the deceased followers bang 72 Virgins in allahland and most rational people see right through this.
      Have to ad this link again for all who missed it really worth a chuckle and so so true.

      http://www.smh.com.au/technology/technology-news/heaven-is-a-fairy-story-says-stephen-hawking-20110517-1eq8f.html

    • Duff says:

      07:04am | 18/05/11

      But SRB, according to Tory we are all secret supporters of Sharia law when it comes to our views about women and rape, so why not go the whole hog?

    • Gregg says:

      07:05am | 18/05/11

      You may want to review your percentage Ronnie and then take note of how it is changing somewhat.
      And then there is something called fear and infection.

    • Deepthinker says:

      07:14am | 18/05/11

      Laugh all you like at the people who have a fathin something beyond them selves, maybe their right or maybe they are barking at the wrong tree, but when the excreta hits the fan, they will be able to handle it maybe a little bit better than people who also believe their own little fairy tales, I kinda think that evert body must have faith in something apart from themselves and their own intellect, and what they choose to believe is up to them, Dawkings is a star gazer who would like to be a normal person with the same intellect he has now, and if he had it he would probably think a lot different than he does now.

    • malohi says:

      07:24am | 18/05/11

      I am with your Sir R, but I am still troubled.
      “Most rational people see through this”...
      However there are many other religious people reading your comment, smugly chuckling along with you, oblivious to the fact that their own irrational belief in christianity or any other cult is just as rediculous and potentially dangerous.

      Unfortunately THOSE people are not in the tiny minority you represent in point (1) and they have equal votes in the law, there is no filter for ignorance at the ballot box.

      So yes Sir R, Sharia law may never happen, but it does not mean that fanatical laws based on the supernatural will not and have not been enactedin this country.

    • Wendy says:

      07:44am | 18/05/11

      It was said only a few years ago that Sharia law would never happen in the UK - it has happened.  It will happen here, not because we want it but because we would be called racist if we object to it and our governments are too cowardly to stand up and say this is Australia, if you want to reside in Australia you should be abiding by Australian law. Australian law would never be practised in any Islamic country so why should we have Sharia law in Australia.

    • Dee says:

      08:26am | 18/05/11

      sir ronald bradnam all you have to do is come out west to Auburn and see for yourself how things are changing

    • SimpleSimon says:

      08:37am | 18/05/11

      Not sure where the “stone age religion” comes from, seeing as Islam is several centuries younger than Christianity. There’s also nothing in Islam that promises virgins - that’s just extremist propaganda.

      I agree with the article, and think sharia law should be rejected. I fundamentally believe in the separation of church and state, regardless of whether that “church” is a Christian church, mosque, or any other place of worship.

    • Elizabeth says:

      09:58am | 18/05/11

      Dee, is Auburn still there???  I remember driving thru Lakemba about 10 years ago and I could not read one window shop because it was all written in Islamic…now tell me, is that for all Australians of JUST MUSLIMS??? YEP…..You can call me a RACIST anytime…...

    • sir ronald bradnam says:

      10:11am | 18/05/11

      simplesimon…i understand what you say, lets just say it is a stone age mentality religion just like all the rest, except L Ron Hubbards collection of actors.

      maholi….good to see there is a like minded commentator on here also. I do believe that more and more people are turning away from all organised religions and about time to. read the link to the article about Heaven and look at the poll at the bottom less than 20% believe there is such a thing as a heaven. Without a heaven the whole fairy tale falls over, no heaven/no hell, no hell/no horned fire breathing devil, no devil/no supernatural dictator. As science answers more and more questions the less sky fairy believers.

    • fml says:

      10:22am | 18/05/11

      Elizabeth my dear,

      Islamic isnt a language.

      *pats you on head*, heres a cookie.

    • TracyH says:

      11:43am | 18/05/11

      FML…you are a smarmy, patronizing pedant. We are all cognitively able to discern what Elizabeth means. Instead of being so bloody condescending, reply to her POINT, rather than her conveyance.

    • MegaLawlz says:

      11:55am | 18/05/11

      Dear Elizabeth,

      I take it you mean Arabic. It would behoove you to know that Muslims are not the only people who speak Arabic. So do Arab Christians - Lebanese Orthodox, Coptic, etc.

      Are we supposed to ban every language other than English? Would you protest if you can read writing on a restuarant window in Mandarin, or Greek?

    • fml says:

      11:57am | 18/05/11

      My point is clear,

      Islamic isnt a language, she is arguing against a point she is not well informed on, it explains why she is not able to grasp simple concepts, such as Advertising on private property to a specific market.

      They are Arabic shops catering for Arabic people, selling Arabic products, if she cannot see that shops are allowed to advertise in Arabic in their window when selling Arabic products to Arabic people and then uses this to exemplify her nationalism then she cannot expected not to be pulled up on such a mistake.

      The analogies i can make are extremely simple, should we stop bakeries advertise the price of bread? force german sausage makers to rename bratwurst to barry wort? how about getting mario to change his name to mark?

      Shop window = advertising = specific market, not a muslim invasion and threat to Australian Sovereignty.

    • TChong says:

      12:12pm | 18/05/11

      ‘Onya Tracy H.- see a little bit of name calling, and character assesments, good and bad, become the natural default for Punchies.
      Only remember 2 things.
      If you dish it out ( like your post, above) expect some in return, and
      Dont take it too personal, because at the end of the day, we all are great chums, n’est ce pas ?  wink

    • TracyH says:

      12:13pm | 18/05/11

      FML
      You proved Elizabeth’s point: specific market.

    • Lisa H. says:

      12:22pm | 18/05/11

      Well it is clear that elizabeth’s key comment is the exclusion of English advertising, and therefore the exclusion of the English-speaking market.
      Surely you picked that up.

    • Diaspora Darling says:

      12:41pm | 18/05/11

      One point Elizabeth and many people miss is that Arabic/Middle Eastern people only make up a portion of Muslims.  Indonesians do not speak Arabic, and they are the largest Muslim nation on earth.  I am sure all the many thousands of African Americans who converted to Islam in the 60s and 70s do not speak Arabic, nor do the Afghanis, the Pakistanis, Indian Muslims and many others.  Islam is not a race or a language group, any more that Christianity or Judaism is (although Hebrew is still used in services).  If Arabic origin Muslims are the ones pushing the barrow for Sharia law, they are not representative of all Muslims everywhere.  I am sure that the US would not bend to such minority group pressure and I am damn sure that Muslims in the US have to abide by the constitution and the federal and state laws.  Likewise, every Australian resident, citizen and visitor to our shores must be subject to our constitution and our laws.

    • fml says:

      12:48pm | 18/05/11

      Lisa,

      there is nothing stopping english speaking people from going into an arabic shop and purchasing goods, i go to Asian and Indian supermarkets, i find they have better curry pastes than woolies or coles, you dont see me complaining because everything is written in another language, i dont find it an affront to who i am as an australian, she is offended that she had to drive past these shops and see their advertising! the horror. How do these people live with themselves. Dont they know this is Australia and we speak Australian!

      To quote a bogan classic, “If you dont like it get out”.

    • Geoffrey Chaucer says:

      12:56pm | 18/05/11

      Deepthinker,

      You are missing the critical point on this issue. Islam is not just a religion, it is first and foremost a political and cultural entity (see Uthman Badar’s ranting on the ABC http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/2610318.html).

      In the Middle-East, Islam controls the lives of all people with its administration of the legal system based on Sharia law. Through their legal status Islamic clerics wield a powerful influence on politics in those countries and, as is the case in Iran, they even hold government office themselves whenever and wherever they can.

      Those clerics who came to Australia under the guise of ministering for muslim immigrant workers find themselves constrained to strictly religious duties and they don’t like it. It was only a question of time before they would attempt to introduce their legal status in Australia, and thus get a foothold on politics in this country.

      We are not talking about a minor cultural issue as a consequence of immigration here, we’re talking about dar-al-islam (total Islamic dominance on earth).

      They approached the Howard government and asked for funeral regulations to be changed to allow islamic practice of burying corpses in shrouds instead of coffins. It was granted after consulting with health authorities.

      They asked also for the law to be changed to allow islamic polygamist practice. It was not granted. The Howard government’s response was that only one formal marriage was allowed, but it stipulated that the government had no jurisdiction over *other private arrangements*. I still wonder if that response extended to Centrelink’s welfare policy.

      Now they ask for Sharia law to apply for muslims residing in Australia. What’s next?

      Now you can bring on the avalanche of dismissals. Bleat to your heart’s content.

    • fml says:

      12:56pm | 18/05/11

      TraceyH,

      Thats not elizabeth’s point at all, her point is she doesnt want to see any dirty foreigners talking some wierd language reading a wierd language in HER country.

      Or she doesnt understand or has a problem with target driven advertising.

    • TracyH says:

      01:31pm | 18/05/11

      My friend TChong..Hi smile
      Yes yes…name calling. BUT, calling FML names based on behaviour is different than name calling based on unchanegeable traits such as height, colour and so on.

      FML..
      There’s no problem with advertising in any language, but it is obvious that if any language excludes the native tongue speakers of a nation, then it is an act of exclusion. How would I, as a consumer, know what the product is if I can’t read the advertisement? That, I believe, is Elizabeth’s point. Advertising, as you say, targets a certain audience. Also, if you wish to purchase a food product, wouldn’t you think it fair to be able to understand what the contents are? So when you go to Asian grocers (as i do, and love doing so) it would still seem inclusive to use the national language of the country along with the products origin so that the majority of citizens understand what they are purchasing rather than a small, select number of people.

      You say something about Elizabeth saying ‘those dirty people”...I didn’t see that anywhere…or am I being pedantic too wink

    • Ando says:

      01:59pm | 18/05/11

      Elizabeth and Tracey H are entitled to care about such things just as I am entitled to wonder what the big deal is.If you want halal meat just go in and ask the shopkeeper I’m sure he will help.
      I enjoy my trips to china town and have never thought to be offended.

    • fml says:

      02:01pm | 18/05/11

      Tracey,

      Elizabeth just drove past she didnt go into the shop, your saying that arabic products that are made in the middle east have to contain english packaging? Well, some do, if your worried about what you are buying, you dont have to buy it, but its not wrong to have arabic writing on an arabic product or arabic shop front and there is absolutely no need to have english writing on a product thats target market is Arabs.

      ” but it is obvious that if any language excludes the native tongue speakers of a nation” So what? put english writing on all products from over seas just so people driving past can feel confident in their nationalism? I think your going a little too far with this one.

      Yes she didnt say dirty foreigners, but her distaste for foreign languages in australia is plain to see, yes i do concede it may be somewhat of an unfair exaggeration.

    • TracyH says:

      02:17pm | 18/05/11

      Ando, I agree with you. I never said I personally was offended, just trying to clarify a point that I thought Elizabeth was making…and I got carried away and forgot my initial point to FML was about the way he was so condescending to Elizabeth (way above somewhere, he gave her a ‘head pat’). On another note, then, if we can call it China Town, does that mean in places there is predominantly only Arabic advertising we call those places/areas Arab Town? Or would that be offensive? Anyway…I am totally in the wrong because it’s wrong of me to assume what Elizabeth might be saying. However, I don’t think it’s wrong to defend her against bullies like FML smile

    • TracyH says:

      02:17pm | 18/05/11

      Ando, I agree with you. I never said I personally was offended, just trying to clarify a point that I thought Elizabeth was making…and I got carried away and forgot my initial point to FML was about the way he was so condescending to Elizabeth (way above somewhere, he gave her a ‘head pat’). On another note, then, if we can call it China Town, does that mean in places there is predominantly only Arabic advertising we call those places/areas Arab Town? Or would that be offensive? Anyway…I am totally in the wrong because it’s wrong of me to assume what Elizabeth might be saying. However, I don’t think it’s wrong to defend her against bullies like FML smile

    • Lisa H. says:

      07:04pm | 18/05/11

      “If you don’t like it get out”
      Exactly the point Elizabeth was trying to express!

      In a mono-lingual culture like Australia - yes, it is our only official language - many Australians (particular our older citz or those that have not travelled) find it disconcerting and dare I say it, rude, to not bother to advertise in the local linga.

      Australian-ness is kind of perceived as ‘togetherness’, is it not? Mateship etc etc.

      Elizabeth is trying to express a simple human reaction to what is perceived as deliberate unfriendliness. Yes, it may be particularly Australian reaction. We are on a big island, not Europe where another language exists 20 miles away.

      Why do the thought police have a problem with Elizabeth even daring to attempt to express her experience?

    • Anu says:

      12:04am | 19/05/11

      FML is a little mistaken, but the hostility of Elizabeth comes through too.In bilingual nations like Canada , I think it is the law to use both English and French in signage. Howvere I do not think the Arabic bakers etc were being intentionally hostile, but it would be wiser of them to include the national language too in their signage. After all , they are the ones who lose out when mainstream Australian customers do not buy their product because they dont understand the signage. For this reason mainly I dont think its an act of intentional hostility. Btw it is a great thing to be bilingual, try to learn a foreign language be it Arabic, French ,Chinese ,Hindi etc.

    • View says:

      05:54am | 19/05/11

      Interesting debate while I sit here in Den Haag, the Netherlands, where English has become almost their second language. You only have to say ‘hello’ to a local and they instantly reply in English. Signs are in English, TV programs in English, menus in English etc etc. I asked my Dutch work colleagues how they felt about this and if they were worried about losing their Dutch culture etc etc, none of them had an issue with it. Admittedly, their culture is still “western” and christian, but still the Dutch are not English, nor American. 

      I love the fact we have such a diverse range of backgrounds in Australia… it enables us to become cosmopolitan. My issue is the fact some immigrants come to Australia and are not prepared to assimilate into our way of life. They create a little world replicating the one they left with all the same issues and problems, causing greater conflict in our nation.

      P.S. There are a far greater number of women walking around here with head scarfs than you’d see in the centre of Sydney

    • Diaspora Darling says:

      07:22am | 19/05/11

      So, When are you guys coming to my nice, white middle class, suburb and banning the two Chinese restaurants that have signs in Mandarin, the Thai restaurant that has signs in Thai, the Asian Grocery where everything is labeled in Korean, the other one where it is all in Kanji and all those with illiterate signage that definitely cannot be called any form of English?  Oh well, I will just go 5 klicks down the road and get some halal Nando’s.  It is only a variation of good old kosher anyway.

    • fml says:

      10:00am | 19/05/11

      Lisa H.

      ““If you don’t like it get out”
      Exactly the point Elizabeth was trying to express!”

      I know thats why i was taking the mickey. Diaspora darling makes a good point, when are you going to go to all the other ethnic shops and ask them to advertise in english?

      Secondly those who are arguing thats its exclusionary only to advertise in arabic, when the target audience is arabic, the only analogy i can make is cigarette advertising, i do understand it doesnt exist any more, but would you say advertising cigarettes to adults is excludes children? of course not, because the target audience is adults.

      Australian is not a single language country, the official language is english and that is what is taught in schools, but you cannot say that people have to advertise in english in their shop window if english speakers are not their target audience!

    • Elizabeth says:

      11:44am | 19/05/11

      Thankyou for all your comments and support, what I was trying to say was that YES, I did feel alienated in my own country, I felt like I could not go ANYWHERE in Lakemba because everything around me was in ARABIC and everyone had their faces hidden behind scarves and I felt like I was in another country….. I was sad as I thought the Muslim people were suffocating the Australians out of this area and taking over…...so yes, maybe I do have a fear or maybe I have islamophobia or whatever it is called….but I do fear them and their religious beliefs and culture as it does not make sense in this day and age. Forgive me if I am not as educated as some of you, but I am saying what I think and what the ramifications of this law if is allowed into our lives at it’s full potential, not just in the divorce areas as they say. If this was to happen I believe it will change AUSTRALIA forever.

    • Gregg says:

      07:00am | 18/05/11

      I think you’ll have mostly support Tors re the position of no Sharia Law in Australia for as you say we are a secular democracy and have laws for the lot of us.

      ” In fact, Australian authorities should be making more concerted attempts to get to grips with sharia law as it is already practised in Australia, and to make sure that the benefits of a secular democracy are better understood in migrant communities. “

      Having now read the article, one of your opening statements does make more sense but just how we get that understanding is the mountain to climb and can we really rely on authorities!
      Like it or not, even if we have rules etc. within various religions as to how they conduct themselves and just what they decide to do or not about various matters when in fact they should be handled by the justice system, some faiths more so than others will probably always see more exclusion from our society than others and that is the problem.

      Australia is likely to be a very different place in the future from what it has been in the past and just the past 50 years has seen significant change, not always for the better and if we want worse as seem to occur in some countries, how we can stop that is the unknown.
      Stopping the boats completely may be a first step but just part of the equation which is far more complex than a claimed cricketing mark.

    • dale says:

      07:51am | 18/05/11

      How about STOP the planes?

    • Baal (read your bible, you know me). says:

      01:28pm | 18/05/11

      @dale,
      Skysharks!

    • Freddo says:

      07:05am | 18/05/11

      With the high Islamic birth rate,  immigration, family reunions etc, Muslims will eventually have the numbers to change the laws of this country to what they want. There is nothing we can do about it now, they’re here.  Look at the problems developing in Europe. Take over by immigration and and breeding.

    • marley says:

      07:35am | 18/05/11

      Froddo - the Muslilm birth rate is higher than the non-Muslim birthrate in Australia - at the moment - but not so high that it’s going to mean they’re likely to become a majority any time in the next two centuries.  They have on average 2.7 kids to the rest of Australia’s 1.9.  Oh, and by the way, Muslim birth rates are dropping, world wide.  In large parts of the Muslim world, it’s not much higher than here. 

      As for immigration, most of our migrants come from non-Muslim countries - the UK, NZ, China, India.

    • centurion48 says:

      07:50am | 18/05/11

      Wow, Freddo, that’s just like what happened when boatloads of Englishmen landed in Australia. Australia does not belong to Christians or any other religion. Get over it.
      The problems in Europe are, in part, because immigrants are not included in the communities but are allowed, or forced, to live in enclaves and are discriminated against simply because of racial and religious stereotyping.
      The Australian government, that we elect via the democratic process, decides who and how many foreigners are accepted as immigrants. The challenge for all of us, Australian society, is to ensure that people from all cultures are treated fairly and with equity and people are judged on their ability not their colour or religion.

    • Phil says:

      08:15am | 18/05/11

      Agreed, which is why we need to stop that from happening.

    • AliceC says:

      08:32am | 18/05/11

      Wasn’t the same said about the Chinese, Greeks, Italians, Vietnamese…....

    • fml says:

      09:28am | 18/05/11

      Still lower than the bogan birthrate,

      They use babies as currency for grog.

    • Budz says:

      09:42am | 18/05/11

      Birth rates drop as levels of education rise, I think this has been proven enough times.

    • Tchom says:

      10:00am | 18/05/11

      Full marks for AliceC.

      ‘Stopping them’ is a form of social engineering and does more damage to our society than good. I don’t want laws telling people how to live their life, because one day that means there might be laws that fundamentally change how I have to live my life.  The best thing we can do is show immigrants to this country the values and lifestyle options available to them, and once these ideas become comfortable with them, integration will happen organically

    • fml says:

      10:13am | 18/05/11

      Tchom,

      that has to be one of the sanest comments i have seen on here, wait till you get the antediluvians nay sayers attacking you and calling you unrealistic and a marxist,

      But seriously full marks mate, absolute sense.

    • Markus says:

      11:20am | 18/05/11

      So stopping the introduction of a system of laws that directly contradicts our own is social engineering, but demanding the general populous be tolerant of these laws is not?

    • mb says:

      12:02pm | 18/05/11

      @ Marley sorry mate, just take a short walk in Lakemba, Auburn, Bankstown and you will observe the number of children per family. Scarey stuff

    • Sony B Goode says:

      12:42pm | 18/05/11

      muslims are well aware of your secular values, yet they still come.

      Muhammad himself taught his followers how to conquer through immigration the first being of medina from mecca, this islamic concept is called Al-Hijra.


      Al-hijra has spread islam throughout the middle east and deep into asia.

      It is now destroying the secular fabric of europe.

      read Geert Wilders speech on European islamists.

      It doesn’t matter if most muslim’s have various degrees of piety, the cause is still served.

    • marley says:

      12:55pm | 18/05/11

      @mb - instead of worrying about what you think you’re seeing in Lakemba, why don’t you look at ABS statistics that tell you what’s really happening. Or take a look at statistics that show birth rates in places like Tunisia, Turkey and Indonesia dropping.  The more prosperous and educated people are, the fewer kids they have.  That has been a pattern throughout the last three hundred years, and it is being seen now in the Muslim world.

    • Tchom says:

      01:01pm | 18/05/11

      @Markus

      Not quite what I was saying. Of course the laws should be stopped, I was talking about stopping people coming into the country because their Muslim. I can see by how I phrased that last comment how that could be confusing. My Bad

    • Alex says:

      01:50pm | 18/05/11

      @mb
      I live in Lakemba buddy and I’m not seeing anything like what you describe. The number of kids per family looks about the same as anywhere else.

    • Kevin says:

      02:10pm | 18/05/11

      I believe indigenous australians have the highest birth rate.

    • Ando says:

      02:32pm | 18/05/11

      Budz,
      Agreed. Also not all muslim offspring will adopt their parents beliefs.
      The sky isnt falling.

    • RyaN says:

      03:29pm | 18/05/11

      @centurion48: “Australia does not belong to Christians or any other religion.” according to whom? You and your radical lefty ideals?
      Like it or not Australia is a CHRISTIAN country and it belongs to the crown first then Australians. This is not just some country floating around for a free for all even though you pot smoking leeches seem to think it is.

    • Ando says:

      04:22pm | 18/05/11

      RyaN thinks christian =right and atheist =left and expects people to take him seriously.

    • RyaN says:

      04:58pm | 18/05/11

      @Ando: do I know? When did I say that. You come on here and espouse such ridiculous assertions and expect us to take you seriously. Do go ahead and try to redeem what little credibility you have left by proving that I said that.

    • Arnie says:

      12:10am | 19/05/11

      Frodo, relax mate muslims are just 1.5 % of the population and with 2.7 kids to the average Aussie’s 1.9 kids it will take a few thousand years for them to overwhelm us!!! You and I will both be history then. Imagine if the aborigines thought like that 2 centuries back, where would you be Frodo?

    • John Jones says:

      07:14am | 18/05/11

      People of any race, colour or religion are not “forced “to live anywhere let alone in enclaves. In case the Islamic Council has missed it, you are living in Australia not somewhere where ypou are forced to do anything. If there are no Islamic Schools, go to a normal school. If there is no halal food available then I am sure that your local butcher or shop can arrange for delivery. In these days of the internet you could possibly order it online. As for Mosques or places of worship maybe that could be done at home with a religious leader visiting on a regular basis. Remember this is Australia if the Council doesnt like it then there is always the alternative of going to an Islamic Country. People of other races and religions have integrated into Australian life why cant you??? You are not special if you want funding find it yourselves. As for Sharia Law we have Australian Law, live with it!!!!

    • Lucy says:

      09:58am | 18/05/11

      Enclaves are just natural. If you moved to a non-english speaking community and there was a suburb with a lot of english speakers you will probably migrate to that community even if there are better housing options available else where. Its human nature, when things are foreign we seek sameness. Think of the various suburbs in our capital cities, there are some that were extremely greek, some extremely italian, some maltese, some croation etc etc. The “enclaves” are not new. And you know what, 1 to 2 generations on and the enclave no longer exists as the kids of these groups marry and move out of these areas (and often marry outside of their group). Its human.

    • Rose says:

      10:17am | 18/05/11

      Yes they are. When people are made to feel unwelcome they will naturally gravitate towards people from their own culture so they do feel included, that’s human nature! If Australians want newcomers to integrate (assimilation should NEVER be the goal) they actually need to be prepared to put in some effort to make them want to integrate. You can’t treat people like shit and then complain that they don’t want to be just like you!
      In terms of Sharia Law, who cares? If they have a system within their religion that allows for the settlement of personal issues, let them go for it! We Catholics have Canon Law, where many will seek an annulment on top of a divorce, and others will base some of their decision making on those laws. Other religions also have their own religious laws which believers may choose to follow.
      There are two big provisos when it comes to religious laws, firstly that they don’t contravene Australian law, and secondly that following these church laws is voluntary. This is the case for all existing religious systems and I see no reason why some aspects of Sharia Law can’t be adopted by those who wish to abide by it. They are still subject to Australian law and it only covers a limited range of situations.
      The problem we currently have in Australia is that we rarely get unbiased commentary and explanations of anything. Our governments and our media find it far more useful to keep us enraged rather than accurately informed.

    • John Jones says:

      10:37am | 18/05/11

      Lucy, there is one vast difference! Religion - and the hold the religious leaders have over their followers. Yes there were suburbs of Italian, Maltese, Greek etc but they at least tried and succeeded in integrating into Australian society learnt english and became part of us. All this person seems to be advocating is the dispersal of large enclaves in the cities to many small enclaves throughout Australia and thats not on. They left their country to get a better life but all they are doing is attempting to force their beliefs and customs on us, something that no other group has done in the past and should not be allowed to happen in the future.

    • Lisa H. says:

      12:31pm | 18/05/11

      The unavailablility of halal food would make a deeply religious person uncomfortable about moving from an enclave. I can understand that.

      The main issue I have with sharia law - apart from the over-riding importance of separation of church and state - is that religious beliefs must be FREE. eg the concept of becoming impostate must be abolished within the church.

      The strong cultural precendence in many predominantly Muslim countries,  where freedom of religion is NOT recognised, makes me feel concerned about the freedom of Muslim women.

      We have a duty of care to all our Australian citizens. We must recognise that many Muslim laws, as traditionally and culturally practiced, can be actively detrimental to the freedom and well-being of women.

    • Rose says:

      12:31pm | 18/05/11

      Rubbish John, I remember attending school with Italians and Greeks. Their sons were told to sew their ‘wild oats’ with Australian girls so that when they got it out of their system they could settle down and marry good Italian or Greek girls. I remember Australian girls being referred to as sluts while the Italian and Greek girls were seen as angels (if only their parents really knew!!). I remember birthday parties to which entire classes were invited, except for the Australians. I remember that we had to celebrate festas and we had to learn Italian. I remember the suburb being almost exclusively European, with Orthodox churches and Italian festas, with shop fronts with Italian/ Greek signwriting. I remember my children going to school with a large Asian community and the segregation and lack of understanding being played out then as well. I see the same thing with the current migrants. What I also see is the growing of interaction between people of Muslim and other cultures. I know of Muslim/ Australian mixed marriages. I see exactly the same things being played out, and I’m confident that yet again we will find a balance which keeps pretty much everyone happy. The saddest thing I see is that despite the successful integration of people from many cultures into Australia, there are still 2 groups which are continually vilified and made to feel unwelcome by a lot of people, Muslims and indigenous Australians!!
      We will integrate and get along fine, its just that Australians need to make as much effort to make it work as the migrants (and indigenous)!

    • John Jones says:

      01:11pm | 18/05/11

      Rose you must have gone to school at a different place to me. I remember going to school with Australians, Greeks, Maltese, Italian and indigenous children and we were just fine with each other visiting each others houses, going to birthday parties festivals etc. When my children were going to school in Australia, Malaya, Singapore and PNG there were no problems at all no matter what religion or race they were. I agree that it is a two way street but sometimes one side will not make the attempt. Perhaps you should look deeper into why a certain group is vilified even after a generation has passed.

    • Faybian says:

      09:12pm | 18/05/11

      @ John, I do remember some of what Rose was talking about growing up as a “skip” in a heavily Greek/Italian neighbourhood. We aussie girls were seen as someone to “have fun” with, but not to marry. By the same token Aboriginal Australians were also prejudiced agains, as being destructive dole bludging drunks. I was young when we got the first wave of Turks and Lebanese in the late 70s/early 80s. The attitude they generally had to women was scary, to say the least. Some were lovely, but I think there is a bigger cultural divide. That’s my own experience anyway.

    • Anu says:

      12:22am | 19/05/11

      If there are no halal butchers around and you cant eat normal meat, just go vegeterian or vegan. Its good for you in the long run.  Local schools are good enough for muslim children too. Iam a buddhist and I went to christian schools overseas, didnt do me any harm. If the inefficient Gillard government starts say a scheme such as pink batts or school gym buildings for schools that charge more than universities, say “muslim de-enclaving scheme” for $500 million building halal butcheries and exclusive muslim only schools around Melbourne, I doubt whether more than 2%-3% of those in enclaves will want to shift.

    • TChong says:

      07:32am | 18/05/11

      Freddo -  whats your solution.? Preventing people who follow islam from having kids ?
      Catholics and devout Jewish families are also renown for large families.
      Them too?
      Any other “final solutions” ?

    • Craig says:

      07:34am | 18/05/11

      Tory, of course they are not talking about “stoning women for adultery or lopping off hands for stealing”, Islamification of the west is a very slow process and must be taken one step at a time. Each time we consent to one of these seemingly small changes in Australia we move one step closer to their ultimate goal - a muslim state.

    • Dazza says:

      09:23am | 18/05/11

      Tony I could not agree with you more strongly.  It’s the old put a frog into boiling water and it will jump out, but put a frog into cold water and bring it to the boil slowly and the frog will boil to death.
      I feel like we are frogs in a slowly warming pot of water and I don’t like it.

    • fml says:

      09:32am | 18/05/11

      We will be a christian state sooner though, they are in a much greater majority, we have to keep the secular values we used to make this great nation, we have to stop the fundamentalists from gaining a foothold in this country.

      I say strip them of their votes!

    • Wonder Woman says:

      11:10am | 18/05/11

      Absolutely, they are trying to gain a foothold and slowly but surely they will make Australia into their own country.  Just like any other Muslim country there will be extreme wealth and extreme poverty and then wars. Give them an inch….....

    • Sony B Goode says:

      07:36am | 18/05/11

      islam is a cult not a religion, it should have its status and benefits as a religion removed.

    • marley says:

      08:39am | 18/05/11

      I agree with this.  The same applies, of course, to all forms of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Taoism, etc etc.

    • fml says:

      09:30am | 18/05/11

      noooo i like taoism,

      what about non-for-profit sporting organisations, i see them walking around with their badges and upto no good, they say they are doing good for the community, but i can see the real them in their eyes.

    • Paul C says:

      07:44am | 18/05/11

      One could assume that these people left/fled their country of origin because of oppressive laws - searching for a better life , if you like.  Then why the hell would they want to replicate that lifestyle here?  Perhaps all of this is more of a takeover bid, than escape from oppression.

    • fml says:

      09:35am | 18/05/11

      Ooooh sounds like a conspiracy theory, do you have a newsletter i can subscribe to good sir?

    • Suzanne says:

      10:23am | 18/05/11

      Yeah, that must be it. All the muslims, everywhere are involved in one big huge conspiracy to take over the world.
      You could assume that they left their home countries because of oppressive laws but you’d probably be wrong. Most leave because of war, persecution, murder, rape and so on. Many leave for employment and more still leave to be with a loved one.
      Perhaps you should get to know some of “these people” and ask them what drew them here before you go making assumptions about them.

      Or would that get in the way of your bigotted view?

    • PatC says:

      11:10am | 18/05/11

      “Then why the hell would they want to replicate that lifestyle here? ” Because it’s human nature.
      I live in a state that has seen a lot of migration from Victoria and South Australia. People moved here because they felt that there were better financial opportunities here than in their home states but then spent a great deal of time trying to change our area/lifestyle/business models to reflect the ones they had left behind - even though a lot of those things created the situations they left behind in the first palce.
      I remember reading about a few boat loads of people that lobbed up on our east coast a while back. They also set about trying to change everything to make it look like the place they had just left. Eventually they adapted and changed and fitted in. Happened about 225 years ago.

    • Markus says:

      11:24am | 18/05/11

      “Eventually they adapted and changed and fitted in”
      I don’t recall them fitting in with the existing culture in any way. Exactly what history books are you reading?

      Funny that in your attempt to defend the current situation, you have essentially admitted that if we don’t stop this now, our current culture and society will go the way of the aboriginals smile

    • Paul C says:

      11:39am | 18/05/11

      @ Suzanne - Do you always label people as being “Bigotted” (sic) without thinking first?  Every Muslim I know, and I know quite a few, came here to get away from that crap. Perhaps that is reflected in the opinion polls on this stupid idea of introducing “Sharia Law” here.

      @ PatC Weak argument, please try again

      @ Fml - Sorry no newsletter - just love flushing out twits like the above two - probably Gillard supporters or feminists - One would think since these laws treat women as second class citizens, they would be totally against it - After all they have fought for thousands of years for equal rights.  Now they have it, still not happy.  Just wait till the burka is compulsory beachwear - won’t the shit hit the fan then.

    • Chris L says:

      12:28pm | 18/05/11

      Could point PatC. I get annoyed at all the southerners moving to Queensland and trying to push us into having daylight savings! If you want to fiddle with your clocks go back to NSW/VIC!!!

    • Suzanne says:

      03:03pm | 18/05/11

      No Paul, I only label the bigots bigoted.
      Of course you know ‘quite a few’ muslims, I expected nothing less.
      Amazing how they all confirmed that they came here to get away from ‘oppressive’ laws, eh? Not one of them came to escape a war zone then? No Indonesian or Indian muslims who came here for a job?

      I never said I supported Sharia law either, please learn to read more carefully. I abhor anything law that favours one person over another be they male, female, muslim, jew or christian and I think the notion of having a separate judicial system for one group of people is ridiculous but since Australia has already set a precedent with the AFL disciplinary committee, Koori courts etc then it’s a bit hypocritical to suddenly start objecting.

    • Septimus says:

      03:12pm | 18/05/11

      LMAO @ fml

    • Craig says:

      07:43am | 19/05/11

      Susanne, you’re right it is “hypocritical to suddenly start objecting”. This is the multicultural nightmare we are creating for ourselves. Values like freedom of religion will be our own downfall because we are importing and nurturing other cultures and downplaying the importance of what made us great in the first place.

    • Geoffrey Chaucer says:

      09:12am | 19/05/11

      Actually FML, talking about conspiracy, in November 2001 an article published on an Islamic website displayed a list of Western countries and the estimated number of years before they would become Islamic.

      I wasn’t not sure what degree the literal meaning of ‘become Islamic’ could be accorded at the time, but the underlying intention was patently clear.

      Looking back on the social turmoil involving muslims that has rocked many Western countries over the last ten years, I would say that the web article I saw in 2001 was not a conspiracy, it was a plan of action.

    • Hamish says:

      11:50am | 18/05/11

      Yeah fml, so you don’t think the fact they thought about doing it in the first place says something? Seriously why are some westerners so desperate to apologise to the muslim world for not being as misogynistic, violent and intolerant as they are?

      What would have happened if the international community didn’t hear about it? Maybe now they’ll just stone them to death instead, huh? Iran’s such an awesome place, I’m really sorry Australia’s not more like it.

    • fml says:

      01:08pm | 18/05/11

      Whose apologizing?

      Mickey was using this as an example of how intolerant sharia law is, Which i fully agree with, but there was a development in the story which shows progression, sharia law is intolerant, but this example does not exemplify it.

      “Iran’s such an awesome place” Iran actually is an awesome place, all the friends i know that have been there say the country is beautiful and the people are the warmest you will ever meet, how ever, the government are a bunch of theocratic nut bags, you should becareful blaming the ills of a country on the people, especially in a place like Iran, where the majority want change, but its the government that stay in power by using force.

    • Hamish says:

      02:24pm | 18/05/11

      You’re right about Iran fml. All Islamic regimes are characterised by violence, oppression and intolerance, whether by truly theocratic regimes or by standard autocratic regimes who just have strong theocratic overtones. Turkey, Iraq and to a lesser extent Malaysia and Indonesia excepted. Personally, I think that’s probably too much of a coincidence. I have a feeling Islam is pretty incompatible with tolerance and liberty, but hey, maybe it’s a just a bizarre case of unfortunate global probability that Islamic regimes and societies are violent, misogynistic and generally stuck in the stone age.

    • Warwick says:

      07:52am | 18/05/11

      This initiative on the part of the Muslim Council is a great opportunity for the Australian Government. It can be used in order to implement a Young Person’s Religious Freedom leglislation. This legislation would guide the establishment of a body that would be concerned with spreading the idea that many different religious beliefs and practices are embraced, in good faith, by different folk in the Australian community. It would inform all Australian kids that they have the right not to believe what their parents and teachers tell them about God and Holy Books and other religious matters. It would make sure that kids understand that they don’t have to attend the religious services that their parents attend. It would establish a set of laws that recognize the crime of using pressure to influence kids to observe religious beliefs and practices, without first making it clear that all these beliefs and practices are hotly contested.

    • fml says:

      09:38am | 18/05/11

      You sir are visionary amongst men,
      I applaud you. Where can i sign up?

    • Maybe says:

      10:12am | 18/05/11

      With indoctrination from birth this is a hard one. Children should have a right to be a child unburdened by religion or other oppressive influence and given freedom of choice from day one until they are old enough to make an informed decision about their own beliefs.

    • Mahhrat says:

      10:19am | 18/05/11

      Yep, I’ll be your admin.

    • simon says:

      10:55am | 18/05/11

      that of course is just state indoctrination….

      you’re merely indoctrinating people into the cult of “I”....

      I guess you’d be happy then to remove all discussion about politics, democracy, human rights, etc from education of minors. 

      Afterall - they deserve the right to be free from indoctrination in garbage wink

    • fml says:

      11:10am | 18/05/11

      Simon,

      Warwick is advocating discussion, not the blind acceptance of ideology inherited from parents.

    • simon says:

      11:26am | 18/05/11

      ahh yes. ok, the he may only advocate discussion of topics like politics, “social sciences”, democracy, religion or human rights in by minors, but not actually educating them in such things.  note:  discussion v.s education.

      Otherwise he’s saying that all children should be educated in what HE believes is acceptable ideological matters - yet muslims are not allowed to educate their children in what they believe are acceptable ideological/theological matters.

      This is just blithering hypocrisy

    • fml says:

      11:45am | 18/05/11

      Simon are you on the right thread?

      He’s not saying what he thinks its the acceptable ideology, he is letting the child know they have a choice in what they want to believe.

      “Otherwise he’s saying that all children should be educated in what HE believes is acceptable ideological matters - yet muslims are not allowed to educate their children in what they believe are acceptable ideological/theological matters.”

      I dont even know how you came to that conclusion.

    • Simon says:

      12:19pm | 18/05/11

      ridiculous suggestion. take away the teaching role of parents? how on earth would you enforce a law that recognises the right of kids not to observe ‘religious beleifs and practices? Which world views would you in/exclude? Only the ones YOU don’t agree with? I know, take the children from birth and raise them in government run institutions staffed by zealots like (Warwick and FML) et al

    • Liberator says:

      12:38pm | 18/05/11

      If anyone has the right to educate children in certain ‘religious beliefs or practices’ (then let’s also include non/anti-religious beliefs, like secularism) ‘, it IS parents. The state has no to stop them.
      I see state interference or involvement at this level actually violates the seperation of church and state.

    • fml says:

      01:14pm | 18/05/11

      Pure Historionics Simon,

      A simple class, outlining religion from a historical perspective and its impact on world history with a simple explanation of the tenants of each religion would be enough. No need to push agenda or motive.

      No one is trying to steal your baby.

    • SimpleSimon says:

      01:57pm | 18/05/11

      I agree with the theory of letting young people choose their own beliefs, but I don’t necessarily believe that legislation is the solution.

      On a side not, I agree with FML @ 1:14pm - I think religious history should be taught in schools, covering the historical facts each of the major religions, their beginnings, and impact on the world. Of course, I think this should be either an electable class or a module of World History, not “mandatory scripture” or any of that rubbish.

    • Graham The Great says:

      07:53am | 18/05/11

      Oh Yeah!  Its coming sooner than you think to a community near you!  Might not be in my time but I have no doubt that its something that my grandchildren will have to contend with.  No I’m not being an alarmist, racist or extremist but a realist and a ‘non apologist’.

    • fml says:

      09:39am | 18/05/11

      your neither a realist or a non apologist, your antediluvian if anything.

    • Uncle Al says:

      08:01am | 18/05/11

      Freddo, I think you are on the money there! UK has huge multicultural issues and just look how Fiji became ruled by setttled Indias to become the mess it is today.

    • TChong says:

      08:17am | 18/05/11

      Hey uncle Al - the vast majority of Fijian/Indians are like the vast majority of Indians elsewhere - Hindu.

    • eddie says:

      10:11am | 18/05/11

      why is Fiji full of indians? - because the brittish took them there to do mostly clerical work - the locals lacked a strong work ethic, to put it as politely as possible. The native fijians would rather go fishing than work - cant blame them if I had a choice I’d be there too, now the population is about split 50/50 and some the locals dont like the Idea of indians running the country. The situation in Fiji has nothing to do with this debate.

    • Seamus says:

      08:12am | 18/05/11

      If they want to live in our country let them adopt our laws.  It’s simple.  No further correspondence entered into.  Case closed.

    • Dark Horse says:

      08:16am | 18/05/11

      There is no room in Australia for any law other than Australian law. Period. Additionally, Islam is not JUST a religion. It is a totalitarian system, the tenets of which are incompatible with our superior, Western culture. We should be endeavouring to stop muslim immigration to Australia and not recognising Islam as a religion. Geert Wilders in his recent speech covered the topic very well here: http://www.citizenwarrior.com/2011/05/geert-wilders-speaks-to-nashville.html We must learn from the mistakes of Europe and rid Australia if the scourge of Islam, not encourage it.

    • Peter the Goat Boy says:

      09:50am | 18/05/11

      Have to agree Dark Horse…I find the islamic faith suffocating and arrogant. I am tired of all the demands from them to pander to their needs. Muslims like to think of themselves as the only religion in the world….they do not TOLERATE us at all and are full of bullshit. Tired of being accused of being racist when I have an opinion so I don’t give a cracker if I offend them anymore, it’s time they had some respect for me and MY BELIEFS. This would be one cause that I would be happy to stand up to and bare arms against. Eventually I believe it will come to that.

    • Mensur Cehic says:

      10:40am | 18/05/11

      @Peter The Goat Boy

      You want to bare arms against other Australian citizens of a different faith? Because some of the extremist elements within that minority don’t respect your beliefs (as they don’t respect the moderate majority within that minority)?? Is that what you want? Isn’t there an Australian Law that should give ASIO “reason to believe” that you are a threat to Australian security and interests?

      I hope ASIO is reading this. Because it is moments like these where the Australian public (including the marginalized Muslim Australians) expect such organizations to MAN UP or SHUT UP.

    • Wayne Kerr says:

      10:49am | 18/05/11

      “This would be one cause that I would be happy to stand up to and bare arms against. Eventually I believe it will come to that. “

      We’ve never had a civil war in Australia but I’m afraid Goat Boy that you’re probably right on this one.

    • fml says:

      11:25am | 18/05/11

      *Sigh*,

      Peter, You are not being accused of being racist because you have an opinion, you are judged on that opinion, why do people have a hard time understanding this, is it really that hard?

      “This would be one cause that I would be happy to stand up to and bare arms against. Eventually I believe it will come to that.” This country is becoming more and more like america everday, so your solution is armed militia groups? Because why? discussion and compromise is too difficult? Friction occurs, when one side asks and the other doesnt want to give an inch.

      Dark horse,

      Gert Wilders? If there was ever an hatred inciting populist, he is it.

    • Knemon says:

      12:54pm | 18/05/11

      Peter the Goat Boy - There is only one faith in the world that believes that no other faith exists or should exist - it is the Jewish faith… Jews even admit that they are ‘the chosen race’

      As for your comment regarding baring arms- you are walking a line no better than that of extreme terrorists.

      Religions of any denomination should always be separate from the state.

    • Paul says:

      02:20pm | 18/05/11

      “bare arms”?  Will everyone be wearing singlets?

    • Mensur Cehic says:

      05:23pm | 18/05/11

      @Paul
      [Paul said:    “bare arms”?  Will everyone be wearing singlets?]

      Ba-hahahahahahaha..  Where is the ‘like’ button?!

    • Huey says:

      08:47am | 19/05/11

      @ Paul & Menshur…had to be said, so funny I can hardly bear it. Thanks.

    • Walter E. Kurtz Jr. says:

      03:14pm | 20/05/11

      I think if an AHMAD made a comment about “bearing arms” against other Australian citizens - there would be a reserve commando unit throwing hand grenades at his kids in no time. Probably by S.O.G. / Resevists too..

      Just like Ghan in Feb. 2009, aye.. wink

      But, no.. It’s a PETER. And that makes it all foyn.

    • L. says:

      08:19am | 18/05/11

      My understanding is that we already have seperate “courts” for other religions, so why not Islam..??

      I believe the Jews and Hindus have their own courts, where they pretty much settle disputes using jewish and hindu religious “law”.

    • michael j says:

      09:14am | 18/05/11

      YES indeed Bikies should have the Disputes settling Rights,yet if they are caught talking to an olde mate they can be jailed for two years without a trial
      or any recourse,,,,,,,,

    • MegaLawlz says:

      09:38am | 18/05/11

      Fair point. We don’t need to apply shariah law to the whole country, but the people who want to live with it should have the option to do so.

    • L. says:

      09:38am | 18/05/11

      “YES indeed Bikies should have the Disputes settling Rights…”

      Your point is..??

    • michael j says:

      10:05am | 18/05/11

      @L-point is they cant have a Disputes court/meeting without being put
      in jail for 2 years without a trial,,

    • L. says:

      10:29am | 18/05/11

      Sorry Mic, but what has that got to do with the officially gov recognised religious courts which already operate in Australia?

    • michael j says:

      04:53pm | 18/05/11

      @L- S.F.A-Apologies

    • Robinoz says:

      08:20am | 18/05/11

      We already have Sharia Law in Australia, but we shouldn’t. The Federal Govt has let us down and is lagging when it comes to protecting Australia from Islamization.

    • The Process says:

      08:20am | 18/05/11

      There are ways to change laws and enact laws within Australia.
      Let those that seek to change or make new laws find advocates and attempt to get them through the process.
      That’s the way things are done in Australia.
      You have nothing to fear.

    • Direct says:

      01:54pm | 18/05/11

      What about the silent majority that prefers things the way they are? Who is going to protect their interests from vocal, professional, politically persuasive lobbyists?

    • GKM says:

      08:22am | 18/05/11

      If you want to live under some form of religious law then live in a country where it is implemented by the State - there are any number out there for all the main religions.

      If you want to live in Australia then you must live by Australian Law. You are free to practice your religion and maintain your customs to the extent that they do not break Australian Law.

      That is a position that applies whether you are muslim, christian, hindu, or a follower of any other religion.

    • Ripa says:

      08:23am | 18/05/11

      Doesnt this push for sharia law only fuel evidence that islam is incompatable with the Australian/western way of life.?

    • Budz says:

      09:45am | 18/05/11

      To me that’s like saying people that want communism in Australia are incompatable with the Western way of life and should leave the country. As it’s a democracy aren’t they allowed to voice their opinion? Here is my example.
      http://www.cpa.org.au/

    • fml says:

      10:08am | 18/05/11

      And if there is no push, or the push is quashed, does that show support fo the democratic process and that they are compatible with the Australian way of life?

      They asked, they didnt get, democracy wins. Yay.

    • CJ Morgan says:

      08:25am | 18/05/11

      Good article, Tory.  I think that this Sharia twaddle should be nipped in the bud, before it gains traction among the tiny minority of disaffected Muslims in Australia.

      Of course, this would be easier to achieve if our governments hadn’t recently been engaged in the wholesale abandonment of the proudly secular - and distinctly ‘Australian’ - form of democratic government that we adopted in 1901.

      Australia is not, and never will be, a ‘Muslim’ country.  Neither is it a ‘Christian’ country, nor likely to become one.  Insert any religion you like, and the reality is the same.  The Australia I grew up in is a proudly secular nation, with a strongly secular political history.

      Those who give this issue undeserved oxygen would be far more successful if they focus on this proud tradition, rather utilising it as a dog-whistle.

    • fml says:

      09:58am | 18/05/11

      Agreed, we shouldnt forget our secular tradition, its being hijacked by the religious nutters, i want my laws to be based on tried and tested neutral laws, not some religious text that is deliberately mis-interpreted by all who read it.

    • sir ronald bradnam says:

      10:36am | 18/05/11

      CJ…nicely said my friend, nicely said.

    • Missy says:

      11:16am | 18/05/11

      @ CJ,

      Wrong, Australia WILL be a muslim country by virtue of simple maths, even if against their will.

      Countries execute the will of the majority.

      Muslims have the highest birthrate in the world, higher than average.

      Research has shown that in order for a culture to maintain itself, it needs the fertility rate of at least 2.11 children per family. Any culture with lesser fertility rate than that will decline.

      Muslims average birthrate is 4.4.

      So your statement that ‘Australia will never be a muslim country’ is erroneous.

      Even if you take into account the wars that muslims always seem to embroiled in - i.e. Darfur (muslim vs muslim), India (muslim vs hindu), Israel (muslim vs jew),etc - I don’t know if this is coincidence but highest concentration of muslims tend to be in impoverished countries such as Indonesia, India, etc population-wise (non-barring the few specks of oil- rich muslim countries), women tend to be uneducated and have more children because of this.

      With a minority muslim population we are already hearing so much flak about ‘muslim rights’ and sensitivity towards their religion but not the other way around, once through simple growth stats they have become the majority, you can kiss your ‘secular Australia’ good bye.

    • Arnie says:

      12:46am | 19/05/11

      @Missy, you take my breath away. It is a question of simple arithmetic. Muslims currently are only 2% or so. Even if your stats are correct-“4.4 children per muslim couple”-which i have only seen very rarely in Australia it will take millenia for this to be an islamic state. I bet you havent got a degree in mathematics or rocket science.

    • Missy says:

      10:29am | 19/05/11

      @ Arnie,

      You’re right, I haven’t got a degree in mathematics or rocket science.
      I’ve got post graduate qualifications, just not in math. smile

      A millenia to happen, huh?
      Oh, okay. I guess preparing for the future isn’t something very high on the priority of people like yourself.

      Just ensuring you have enough dollars per week for your fuel guzzling 4 wheel drives, mcmansions, food wastage, obesity - lets just screw up this world so our children and great grandchildren can inherit the results of your selfishness!

      Sorry, close, but no cigar.

    • Sony B Goode says:

      08:27am | 18/05/11

      The muslim world will throw you in jail for kissing your own wife on the streets.

      They have zero tolerance for our customs, we should have zero tolerance for theirs. islam is a cult not a religion, it should have its rights as a religion stripped away and monitored like any dangerous cult.

    • Robinoz says:

      12:57pm | 18/05/11

      Missy, you are spot on. From small stirrings, great movements grow. When muslim populations reach about 10%, they begin being a serious problem. More than that and the problems increase. If they don’t get what they want, it’s civil disobedience (they don’t recognise our law, only allah’s law) and then it’s violence to get rid of infidels.

      Australia needs to clamp this before it gets out of hand as it has elsewhere.

    • Krys says:

      08:30am | 18/05/11

      The boiling Frog syndrome comes to mind.

      Tory you state the AFIC proposal is ‘moderate’. However once you allow the concept of seperate laws no matter how small or insignificant you may think. Once in place there will be continuing pressure from this mob to increase and upscale the extent of what is encompassed in these laws. The rules and laws in the Quran are very Draconian and you cannot just simply cherry pick the less troglodytic ones, as a good practising pious Muslim you have to encompass the lot .

      Also as a feminist Tory your defence of Sharia law, even the small tidbits such as marriage that you claim are ‘moderate’ are totally hypocritical. Your setting the Feminist agenda back 200 years.
      Yes thats right 200 years! Go look up verse 2:282 in the Quran. Quite succinctly it states ‘A woman’s legal testimony is worth half of a man’s.

      And this is strictly enforced by Sharia in many Islamic countries. if you want examples take this womans experience of marriage in Bahrain
      http://www.weeklyblitz.net/1083/repression-of-women-in-bahrain-under-sharia-law

      it also helps to understand where this woman is coming from by examining the Quran a bit further. For example.

      A man gets more of an inheritance than his sister gets. Qur’an 4:11, 176- “A man shall inherit twice as much as a female”. Following vs. 11, the next verses detail percentages of who receives what. Again, men come out on top.


      Is this really what you want to subject Australian muslim women to? Your letting the Sisterhood down…....

    • MegaLawlz says:

      09:50am | 18/05/11

      The idea behind sons inheriting more than daughters is that the man is expected to be able to provide for his family, whereas a woman does not have that financial obligation. You can always write a will stating you want all of your kids to inherit an equal amount, especially considering women have the opportunity to work in the same sectors as men (back then the main money-making was trading caravans, which were often dangerous).

      Seriously, enough with the hysteria. I know several muslim women who are keen supporters of shariah law. You could also look at the case in which the woman was using sharia to her own advantage in Sudan (might have been Nigeria, I can’t remember, it was definitely in Africa). It would also be worth noting that the brand of shariah practised in many other countries is tainted by cultural biases and extremism. There is no need for that to happen here in Aus as well, as long as the process is regulated.

    • Markus says:

      11:29am | 18/05/11

      “The idea behind sons inheriting more than daughters is that the man is expected to be able to provide for his family, whereas a woman does not have that financial obligation.”

      Which is an idea that goes against the entire concept of equal rights that people have fought so hard for in this country. Why the hell should we allow a system of laws that spits in the face of that?

    • Krys says:

      12:11pm | 18/05/11

      Yes Markus you have to understand that in Islam

      MEN ARE SUPERIOR TO WOMEN

      Qur’an- 4:34 “Men have authority over women because Allah has made the one superior to the other, and because they spend their wealth to maintain them. Good women are obedient.

    • MegaLawlz says:

      12:31pm | 18/05/11

      @Markus The rules were set up in a time where it wasn’t possible for women to work in the same way as men - while they could own camels and property etc, it ws more difficult for them to do the actual travelling sales due to bandits etc. Men could do this, however, and were therefore expected to provide for their family.
      The reasoning behind it was to ensure that families wont be left out on the streets, that at least one person in the relationship will be able to take care of them. It doesn’t mean that women can’t be the primary providers if they choose to.

      How is saying that the women have no monetary obligations towards their spouse any different to modern values? I’m not sure I understand your point entirely, excpet that there is still a disparity in pay between men and women in modern-day Australia - may be we should fix this before attacking a set of rules that don’t even apply to us? If Muslims want to live in a situation where the man is expected to provide for his family, then so be it. 

      It just makes sense because I’m assuming most women will take some time off after childbirth and therefore will be relying on the spouse’s income.  We’ve fought for equal rights for women - and this system essentially works in favour of women. If, as a man, you dont want to be the main provider, no one is going to make you. You generally discuss these things before you get married, so there’d be some sort of agreement.

      It would also be worth noting that the Shariah law would only apply to Muslims and even then, only to those who choose to.  It doesn’t apply to everyone in Australia.

    • Markus says:

      01:16pm | 18/05/11

      So the rules were set up in a time that bares absolutely no resemblance to modern society. So again, why the hell should we support the introduction of such a backward-arse set of laws?

      “It doesn’t mean that women can’t be the primary providers if they choose to.” Except that they will never be recognised as such, under Sharia law?

      “It would also be worth noting that the Shariah law would only apply to Muslims and even then, only to those who choose to”
      Those who choose not to would no longer be considered Muslims, and be outcast. Some choice.

    • MDG says:

      03:34pm | 18/05/11

      Come on, Krys.  Christianity teaches that a wife should be subject to her husband as to the Lord, and some churches are tearing themselves apart over the very prospect of letting a woman get into a pulpit to say a few words.  The progress of gender equality has been despite of, not because of, the influence of religion.

    • Krys says:

      03:54pm | 18/05/11

      MDG you make a good point in highlighting the backwardness of some christian churches.

      However common law based is not around backward Christian beliefs. So why should we start now with other religions?

    • MegaLawlz says:

      05:57pm | 18/05/11

      Uh Krys, common law kind of IS based on Christian values. If it weren’t gay marriages and abortion would be accepted as legal. And politics and religion would be separated. And public holidays wouldn’t be based on religion (easter, christmas).

      I don’t pretend to be an expert on the subject, but shariah law essentially tries to provide an level playing field. As much as we’d like to think we have it great it in Australia, there is still a pay gap between men and women, men get the top jobs more frequently, and especially in terms of something like news anchoring, without half as much trouble. Is this the equality we’ve fought for?

      Shariah intends to provide a starting point, and it is perfectly acceptable for a woman to be teh provider - the prophet Muhammad’s wife Khadija was wealthier than he was and she provided the support. A woman’s contribution is considered an act of piousness, which is not to say that the man’s contribution is any less - just that both are accepted.

      And women are recognised under shariah law, they are just not forced to make a compromise between career and children because they know the husband will provide for the children not just in terms of time but also monetarily.  So pretty sure this is still relevant today.

      “Those who choose not to would no longer be considered Muslims, and be outcast.” - Yeah except firstly, it’s free country, and secondly who is to judge your faith but God or whoever it is that your faith is in?

      It would also be interesting to note that there are essential three sections of shariah law - business, family and criminal. Criminal law wouldn’t be changed, business law is already practised by muslims and non-muslims world-wide - the guy who won the Noble price for economics a few years ago was Muslim and his system was based on the same. And family law is in terms of divorce, counselling, disputes etc. which is essentially what any religious figure ie pastor, rabbi etc would do.


      Muslims are required to respect the laws of the country in which they live so any part of shariah that they want to practise will have to comply with Aus standards anyway, so what’s the big deal?

      And finally - shariah law would only be applied to Muslims so the rest of the country doesn’t have to stress about following it too.

      @Markus - I just had a look at the verse you mentioned (4: 34) and there is no mention of superiority or inferiority. It states that men are the ‘qawwam’ as in caregiver, supporter - of women - i.e. they are obliged to support them and take care of them. The word ‘qanitat’ used is used in the Qur’an exclusively in the sense of obedience to God - i.e. the righteous women are those who are obedient to God, just as the pious men are those who abide by God’s wishes and support their spouse.

      Fact checking is always good. As is understanding the language and sense of writing. So basically an openness to education will get your far.Wouldn’t it be ironic if you were right though, given the Qur’an mentions several times that men and women are equals, and the verse you mentioned is from a chapter titled ‘The Women’? LAWLZ.

      Sorry sound so preachy, it isn’t my intention. Just clearing up a few misunderstandings smile

    • Direct says:

      07:11pm | 18/05/11

      MegaLawlz, you must be doing this for the lulz, because there is no misunderstanding.

      Whether there is an explicit mention of inferiority is irrelevant. You stated “i.e. they (men) are obliged to support them (women) and take care of them (women)”. The implication being that women require someone to support and take care of them whereas men do not, thus women are inferior to men.

    • Arnie says:

      12:34am | 19/05/11

      I believe Islamic law contributed to common law as well before the 12th century, for example the idea of juries etc. But there is no need to go back to Islamic law which hasnt evolved since that time, particularly if certain sections of society such as muslim women are worse off.

    • dancan says:

      08:31am | 18/05/11

      One country, one set of laws to govern all and not some

    • iansand says:

      08:32am | 18/05/11

      In any commercial contract the parties to that contract can choose the law that will be applied to that contract.  You will find a choice of law clause in any properly drafted contract between parties in different countries.

      In most large commercial contracts, and especially international contracts, you will find clauses requiring the parties to resolve a dispute.  You will also find submission to jurisdiction clauses, where the parties agree that the courts and tribunals of a particular place are where any dispute is to be resolved.  Resolution of international disputes is a significant part of London’s legal business, for example, and those disputes are often decided under English law, even if neither party is English.  Although mostly a set of international commercial codes, without a basis in the law of any particular country, are used.  Australia should be trying to grab a slice of the Asian Pacific dispute resolution pie - it is big business (but I digress).

      Choice of law, choice of jurisdiction and submission to arbitration clauses are enforceable and enforced.

      So having parties decide to have a contract governed by Sharia law and resolved in Sharia tribunals is completely normal and utterly underwhelming news.

      But carry on in your clouds of fear and ignorance.

    • Holly says:

      08:36am | 18/05/11

      You have missed the point.  Sharia law in relation to inheritance , marriage and divorce is based on pure misogyny.  Last year I read an article by a member of the Islamic women’s council claiming they did not want Sharia law.  Do you realise what Sharia actually means in relation to divorce.  The best interests of any children would be the last thing to be considered.  It is not racist to oppose Sharia law.  If you are at all concerned about human rights you could not countenance Sharia.

    • Greg says:

      08:43am | 18/05/11

      In the history of Australia, to date no single group i.e Vietnamese boat people, buddhists, jews, anglicans, catholics has ever tried to single handedly IMPOSE their religious beliefs/lifestyle upon the rest of the population, and have the country change its laws or food practices.

      Religion is a personal thing which should be practiced by the individual in their own time/home. I believe it is every Australian’s constitutional right NOT to be bombarded by anything relating to Islam and what it’s members want or need. They should be Australian’s first and practice their Islamic faith in private where religion belongs.
      Even the mainstream media seems to be “softening” Australians to Islam by making it mains stream such as my son watching playschool on the ABC where it follows two muslim girls on a shopping trips for hijabs, or the amazing race on channel 7 with two muslim contestants showing off their prayer mats and commenting on their faith. Once again an innocuos Tv show injecting Islamic beliefs into the mainstream. I’m sorry but this is not an Islamic country, practice your religion in your mosque and home, and spare us the propaganda.
      Let’s take a lesson from what has happened in Europe or are we too scared of being called racist?

    • James1 says:

      10:11am | 18/05/11

      Never heard of the ACL?  They regularly make submissions to all manner of inquiries.  Indeed, their reason for existing is to make Australian laws and society more Christian and biblical.

    • fml says:

      10:17am | 18/05/11

      “Even the mainstream media seems to be “softening” Australians to Islam by making it mains stream such as my son watching playschool on the ABC where it follows two muslim girls on a shopping trips for hijabs, or the amazing race on channel 7 with two muslim contestants showing off their prayer mats and commenting on their faith. Once again an innocuos Tv show injecting Islamic beliefs into the mainstream.”

      Those evil bastards! everybody in australia knows the tv is a white only domain!

    • Aaron says:

      12:35pm | 19/05/11

      OMG Greg you made me LOL. I think I can name the biggest influence on Australian culture in Australia’s entire history, the British. In fact the British have had the biggest impact on the culture and lifestyle of almost 99% of all cultures in the world. Maori, African and it’s sub-groups, Native Americans, Central Americans, South Americans, India, China, Japan, Ireland and the list goes on.

      In fact up until the last 200 years the religion of Britain was constantly changing depending upon the desires of the King/Queen at the time. Britain has always been an invader.

      It really irks me that so many people make claims like Greg’s while conveniently overlooking the “Inconvenient Truths”.

      Islam is like Christianity in that you have your extremeists (often these are the fundamentalists) and you have your moderates (your everyday person) and then you have those inbetween who are extreme but recognise that some acts by extremeists really are not right.

    • deb says:

      12:15pm | 21/05/11

      no other group has tried to impose their beliefs on the general population. Really? Cause last time i checked, it was illegal for me to marry my same sex partner or use the abortion pill because this just didn’t sit comfortably with our so called secular state’s christian beliefs.

      As for the “mainstreaming” of islamic people, and other races/religions. Good. Maybe you’re son will grow up more open minded and tolerant because of it. The cycle of bigotry has to stop somewhere.

    • TChong says:

      09:07am | 18/05/11

      Lassie and Rin Tin Tin are off the leash and staking out their territories.

    • Tchom says:

      10:05am | 18/05/11

      No, its a religion. The only difference between ‘cult’ and ‘religion’ is tax exempt status

    • Elphaba says:

      09:10am | 18/05/11

      I don’t know why this is a big deal.  It’s never going to be implemented.  The government will look it over, maybe have some discussion, but that’ll be it.

      If the Islamic Council wants to put up a submission, got for it.  But I don’t think we need to be too concerned about it actually happening.  They’re just doing it for some attention, like this article.  If they don’t like our secular democracy, they can leave.

    • Bev says:

      10:32am | 18/05/11

      Elphaba says:09:10am | 18/05/11

      I don’t know why this is a big deal.  It’s never going to be implemented.

      I suggest you read upon how to boil a frog.

    • James1 says:

      11:12am | 18/05/11

      Indeed Elphaba.  Some people seem to vastly overestimate the influence held by Parliamentary Committees, and submissions made to them.  Anyone would think the government was legislating for death by stoning for adultery the way people are carrying on.

    • Knemon says:

      01:07pm | 18/05/11

      Hear hear Elphaba - It’s not that difficult…mountains and molehills

    • Steve Thompson says:

      09:12am | 18/05/11

      “we are successfully secular despite various religions’ attempts to infiltrate and influence our Governments and our laws.”

      Religion infiltrated our governments long ago and has been influencing our laws for many years. Not too long ago you couldn’t join the Labor Party unless you were Catholic. Also, we now have an atheist prime minister who in pandering to the religions by increasing funding for local religious groups to go into our public schools and preach to our children.

    • Lynne McKay says:

      09:13am | 18/05/11

      I lived and worked in Indonesia (all over Indonesia!) for over eleven years.  Believe you me, 99% of the Indonesian population do NOT want or approve of Sharia Law…witness the ten years war (of Gamm versus the Government of Indonesia) in Banda Archia over his very Law.  The GOI finally gave into Sharia Law just for this province due to a 65% vote for its acceptance as a means to stopping the War…One wonders how many of the 65% of “Yes” votes were collected as a result of the religious Police and the application of Sharia Law principles against the population!  Australian Law for Australians…If Muslims want Sharia Law send the to Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan so they can experience this abhorrence, especially against women, at first hand!

    • G says:

      09:16am | 18/05/11

      Well said. They have the right to say they want Sharia Law in Australian Law. But we have the right to say no too.

    • Fiat Lux says:

      09:16am | 18/05/11

      The Bible warns ‘‘Beware of false prophets’’ and they include Mohammed .

    • Seanr says:

      09:17am | 18/05/11

      Tory, you rightly say no to sharia law but how about the Koori courts? This is a racist system already given legal weight in our country.

    • Bev says:

      10:29am | 18/05/11

      You stole my line! 
      Koori courts have caused serious problems and some of their decisions and sentences go very much against the idea of our justice system.  Sharia law would be much worse.

    • Markus says:

      10:46am | 18/05/11

      The situation with Koori courts is ridiculous enough as is, without allowing another separate code of laws for a religious group that is growing at a much faster rate than indigenous Australians.

    • The Original Oz says:

      09:18am | 18/05/11

      So a minority of the population is calling for changes to the way the law is administered in Australia so that it is closer to the way it is done in the country that they left (fled from for fear of their lives if you believe what they say to gain their visas). If the system in their old countries was so bad then why replicate it here????
      Australia should totally reject this call for Sharia Law to be implemented. As for Government financial support (read as Taxpayers Money) to finance the expanssion of Islamic Schools and halal food outlets - WTF is that about. Private (see religious) schools and Halal food (whether butchers or retail outlets) are private enterprise activities and should, under no circumstances, be funded out of the pockets of Australian taxpayers. I like to eat quality seafood and there are no seafood wholesalers or retailers in the area I live in - Does this mean I can go to the Government and say that they have to give me financial support to establish a fish market and retail outlet in my town - get stuffed.

    • jag says:

      09:20am | 18/05/11

      Family law and divorces?

      From my time living in Morocco this means the man gets everything and the woman is reduced to a nobody begging on the streets.

      Who could support this abomination?

    • simon says:

      11:35am | 18/05/11

      The elementary mistake you’re making here is by conflating moroccoa with sharia.  This an artifice of rhetoric that you’re using to try and peddle your argument, unfortunately it doesnt conform to logic.

      The onus on you - making such sweeping yet myopic generalisations - is to actually prove from islamic scriptures that upon divorce a woman recieves nothing and a man recieves everything. 

      I challenge you.  C’mon show your “true blue” aussie spirit.

    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      11:37am | 18/05/11

      Everyone who supports allowing Muslims into the country, obviously.

    • jag says:

      01:37pm | 18/05/11

      The onus on you - making such sweeping yet myopic generalisations - is to actually prove from islamic scriptures that upon divorce a woman recieves nothing and a man recieves everything

      Wrong, very, very wrong. The onus is on the people who want sharia law in this country to assure everyone else that this is not the case.

    • AussieFamilyLaw says:

      09:03am | 24/05/11

      Gee wiz. Family Law in Australia (or if our own government wasn’t so deceptive it would be called Divorce Law because divorce is actually what it is for - not families) doesn’t appear to be working real well at the moment.

      Didn’t you happen to see the Parachuting of the Harbour Bridge the other day? Or did you miss the news of another parent driven to murder/suicide. Australian Family Law must be really spectacular if it drives people (mainly men) to these extremes.

      Perhaps instead of dismissing it without even looking at it (which you admit you haven’t done) it would be a great idea to publicly debate how our laws can be improved by examining others and incorporating aspects of them.

    • Steve Thompson says:

      09:25am | 18/05/11

      To all of the polically correct westerners who believe that Islam is a religion of peace should do just one thing, read the Koran, from cover to cover.

      Muslims are instructed by their book to hate everyone who is not a Muslim; in particular Christians and Jews; they receive a particular hatred many times over in the Koran. Muslims are instructed by their Koran to spread Islam by whatever means necessary, including force, deception and trickery. Muslims are instructed by their book to lie to and deceive non-Muslims whenever necessary to achieve the aims of Islam.

      To those who do not believe this, just do one thing, read the Koran yourself.

      Western governments have been deceived into allowing Islamic law. It must never happen in Australia.

    • L. says:

      09:40am | 18/05/11

      ...and the bible also says I’m allowed to keep slaves as long as I don’t take them from my own country and that insolent children are to be stonned to death.

      What’s you point?

    • Ghost says:

      09:41am | 18/05/11

      Rubbish.  Utter Rubbish.

    • Septimus says:

      09:43am | 18/05/11

      Steve,

      How many Muslims do you know?  How many have you interacted with?  If you had, you would know your post is nonsense.

    • fml says:

      10:39am | 18/05/11

      Only if you interpret it literally, then your a fundamentalist nutbag,

      Your attitude is similarly nutbag in quality if you think the majority of people in this country take the words of religious texts literally. Most pick and choose.

    • Steve Thompson says:

      11:04am | 18/05/11

      Just read the Koran for yourself.

    • Sad Sad Reality says:

      11:10am | 18/05/11

      Septic tank.

      Which of these gives a more accurate view of Islam?

      1) A couple of guys smoking the Shisha at an Auburn coffee shop.

      or

      2) The oppression, brutality and cruelty witnessed throughout the entire Muslim world.

      I’m thinking 2.

    • Septimus says:

      11:24am | 18/05/11

      Aww Sads,

      Good to see you.  How’s the laptop light from under the bed?  Is there enough room to write?

      Sads, you are the last person on the site, perhaps even in the country, we can rely upon for an accurate portrayal.  How’s your nutcase website going? Not quoting it so much now it’s been discredited?

      I was literally thinking, good on The Punch for allowing our country’s nutters to express themselves and you came along.

      Coincidence?  I think not!

    • fml says:

      11:42am | 18/05/11

      SSR,

      Definitely 1.

    • LauraBoBaura says:

      12:24pm | 18/05/11

      Yep & the bible condones rape of women, slavery & murder of non-christians & a whole bunch of other nasties.

      What’s your point Steve?

      The people that interpret that tripe literally are, say it with me Steve.. ‘fundamentalist looneys’

    • L. says:

      12:59pm | 18/05/11

      “17,202 Islamic terror attacks since 9/11. Islam. What a blast.”

      I wonder how many of those 17,202 are actually attacks on soldiers as part of a war..??

    • Sad Sad Reality says:

      01:17pm | 18/05/11

      L.

      From the creators of this list.

      “We usually don’t include incidents related to combat, such as in Iraq and Afghanistan, unless it involves particularly heinous terror tactics.  Unprovoked sniper or bombing attacks on foreign military personnel serving normal police duties are sometimes included depending on the circumstances.”

      AKA very few. But keep digging. Islam and a civilised 21st century society don’t mix.

    • Septimus says:

      01:45pm | 18/05/11

      It’s time to put Sads in with the other ‘Tin Foilers’, there’s no hope for him.

    • Sad Sad Reality says:

      02:03pm | 18/05/11

      The truth scares you that much doesn’t it Septic?

    • fml says:

      02:06pm | 18/05/11

      SSR,

      I feel there is no hope for humanity if you are the epitome of civilised society.

      Septimus, you are 100% correct.

    • L. says:

      02:30pm | 18/05/11

      @Sad Sad Reality

      Unless all 17,202 are indivdually documented and cross referenced with independant news and police / gov reports, I wouldn’t believe a word of it.

      I mean terms like “usually don’t include” and including them “depending on the circumstances” without defining the circumstances seems to be a cop out to me…

    • Sad Sad Reality says:

      03:14pm | 18/05/11

      fml. You’re right. This is what civilisation sounds like.

      “A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby.  However, he should not penetrate vaginally, but sodomising the child is acceptable.  If a man does penetrate and damage the child then, he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life.  This girl will not count as one of his four permanent wives and the man will not be eligible to marry the girl’s sister…  It is better for a girl to marry at such a time when she would begin menstruation at her husband’s house, rather than her father’s home.  Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven.  [“Tahrirolvasyleh”, fourth edition, Qom, Iran, 1990]”

      The words of the most senior Islamic figure in Iran. Bring on the civilisation.

      @L.

      That list doesn’t even begin to scratch the surface of Islamic terror attacks. That’s the horrible truth. While you’re niggling over the particulars, the real list is astronomically higher. Some parts of the world are almost impossible to receive news from.

    • TheRealDave says:

      09:27am | 18/05/11

      You know, I’m going to take an opposite tack today, just to be contrary and maybe stir up some discussion and see some other points of view.

      Some kind of limited Sharia Law - why not? But it would need to be complimentary and Australian Federal, State, Industrial etc laws will ALWAYS take precedence.

      Why should we not assist recent arrivals to gently come to grips with our vastly different laws and values. The local Australian Imams are a usefoll tool that can help us fully integrate these people into our modern, vibrant AND SECULAR Democracy. Immigrants can and do congregate in familair enclaves. Their Imams will always be leaders of their communities so why not help them transition with the help of these Imams? If some kind of limited Sharia - which would only ever be applicable to Muslims anyway, helps them isn’t that a good thing for ALL of us in the long run?

      Tory and other news articles today give examples like Divorce. Good example. The couple would still need to legally be divorced in the relevant Australian States court, paperwork filled out etc. Couldn’t this be made easier with the assitance of local Imams that would provide the couple with counselling etc before hand, just as any Catholic Priest would. If the couple is still determined to divorce then the Imams do their religious thing and grant their religious divorce and the case is then handed over to civil authorities who have 9/10ths of their work done for them already and they can rubber stamp it. We the taxpayer saves money, the couple get their religious and legal divorce and the recent arrivals don’t get swallowed up in legal paperwork, lawyers fees and all that. I can’t see a problem with that. Further, if a female gets shafted via Imams because, lets face it, I am sure we have all heard of specific news items where women have been treated less than favourably by Islamic men and courts, she still has the option of going to civil authorities for justice.

      To be honest, I don’t see a problem with that. Same goes with Islamic business deals, finance etc. As long as Australian Law superseeds all I don’t see an issue. Its a form of workplace barganing isn’t it? I thought the Libs were all for that?

      The main issue I do see is your various Right Wing ‘Muslims under your bed’ fear merchants who are going to turn this around and scream into their talkback microphones that its the coming of the ‘Islamic Caliphate’ and that Terrorist Muslims want to inflict Shariah on ALL of us. Load of bollocks. This kind of limited Sharia is only for the Muslims themselves. And I repeat - to run Complimentary with Australian Law.  And even then it would be purely voluntary. Muslims can still take ALL their legal issues to proper Australian secular courts.

      But I have no doubts at all that the foaming at the mouth retards will be screaming shrilly that all of us will be dragged before bearded Imams and have our hands cut off as punishment for trivial matters. Sane Australians need to point these people out for the inbred morons that they are.

    • LauraBoBaura says:

      12:29pm | 18/05/11

      TheRealDave, this is the most sane & reasonable argument I have heard today on this topic. I applaud you.

    • Baal (read your bible, you know me). says:

      12:41pm | 18/05/11

      In practice it will be used to create second class citizens in our country. Image being a young lesbian bisexual or gay muslim living under any sharia law. Image wanting too marry a non approved spouse under sharia law. Image being a woman or a man wanting a different life but having to choose between exile and the only family and culture you have known. At the moment it is hell for them by custom alone but the state giving these archaic customs any sort of legitimate standing would give power to those who oppress.
      Everybody must be equal under the law and at the moment let us be honest and realise people are not equal but it is goal worth striving for, any proposal that undermines that goal must be fought.

    • TheRealDave says:

      01:27pm | 18/05/11

      Baal, there is nothign stopping same sex relationships in Islamic cultures. Its complimentary and it will never superseed Australian Law. You can’t have same sex marirages in Catholic Churches or Australian Law right now, so your point is moot anyway.

      With or without Limited Sharia homosexual members of ANY community are ostracized. Limited Sharia won’t affect this in any way. SHould members of the Islamic Community take action of some kind against homosexuals or same sex partnerships in their community they would be breakign Australian Law and subject to the same punishments as you ort I doing the same thing. Limited Sharia does not protect them from ANY Australian Laws.

    • Jay-ded says:

      01:49pm | 18/05/11

      TRD I could live with that.  IF, the Australian law supersedes all other limited laws then I can’t see a problem.

      Actually, it’s a well thought out argument, though I am surprised that fml hasn’t shot you down in flames…...yet.

    • fml says:

      02:10pm | 18/05/11

      Ahhh Jay-ded,

      Im all for that, ive never said that sharia law should supercede australian law, if you look at my posts ive always said sharia law would never be implemented in australia.

      If you read my posts you will see that i am all for the democratic process.

      “They asked, they didnt get, democracy wins. Yay.”

      But hey, keep making shit up and calling it gospel, good for you. i cant believe i have to quote myself now.

    • TheRealDave says:

      02:31pm | 18/05/11

      Its cause my reasoning is ‘iron clad’ :p

      And yes, Australian Law superceeds, jsut as it would for any Koori/Murri courts or any Christian Declarations or the like

      Actually, another example springs to mind. A few eyars aback an NRL player was cited for belting someone. He went to the NRL judiciary who fined/suspended him as they do. However, it also went before the courts and the player was done for assault, from memory. Pretty much how I see Limited Sharia working here. The key word here is COMPLIMENTARY, which is what some people are choosing to ignore or have forgotten.

      For the very slow:

      COMPLIMENTARY does NOT equal REPLACEMENT.

      Australian Law will still have primacy. Forver. In ALL cases.

    • Bina says:

      05:09pm | 18/05/11

      In THEORY that doesn’t sound so bad. BUT, consider this - my closest friend at school, born in Australia to a Muslim Lebanese family, had to physically fight her father and her two brothers in order to escape to my house and ask for help because she was being forced into an arranged marriage. This may not be a terribly common situation, but nonetheless, it happened to her. Her only solution was to go to the authorities (she was 17 at the time) and seek support and effectively, had to divorce herself from her community and family in order to get away.
      Another girl I used to know, made the mistake of being a lesbian.She was from a Muslim family which originated in, I believe Iran. What happened to her, I won’t go into, but suffice to say it was not pleasant. Her family attempted to deal with her under Sharia Law, with, according to my friend, full support from their religious leaders.
      I know you state that Australian Law would supercede Sharia Law, but is giving ANY sort of validity to these insane practices a good idea? The reality is that those who seek to introduce such laws may be moderate, the majority who follow them may be moderate, but lets face it, not all of them are. If two of my friends have been brutalised by these practices even without the legal regognition of Sharia, what on earth will these people feel they can get away with if Sharia IS recognised?
      ...i hope i’m making sense…
      I have, in principle absolutely no issues with ppl sorting our their own disputes in the way they see fit as long as it’s lawful. But I can’t see that formally recognising these practices in any way under the Australian legal system, would be a good thing. I wonder if his would even further encourage the extremists?

    • Bill of Queensland says:

      09:33am | 18/05/11

      Muslims fled a failed culture which they want to introduce into Australia. There is a chasm between the public relations spin of Muslim groups and reality! Muslims fought very hard to have Islamic texts exempted from the English 2005 bill aimed at curbing religious hatred. European countries have discovered that they have allowed entry to an inimical group which aggressively demands special treatment and steadfastly refuses to integrate with the host society. No accommodation is ever enough! The goal of Islam is to take over by conquest or weight of numbers. Their tactic is to suspend Jihad when met with too much resistance, start again when conditions are favourable. The Quoran is filled with commands to murder non-Muslims. Perusal of Cruel and Usual Punishment by the Muslim author Nonie Darwish describes the terrifying implications of Islamic Law and how Muslim women in the West promote Sharia Law. In it Nonie Darwish echoes the warnings of Walid Phares in Future Jihad which are clearly evident. 1) Ideological penetration through funding of university courses. 2) Mollification of the public by indoctrinated graduates from 1. 3) Infiltration of government and organisations to spread propaganda. 3) Undermining democratic institutions whilst being protected by the laws of the country. 4) Infiltration and influence of foreign policy. 5) Strike! One cannot be Muslim and Australian! Assimilate or emigrate!

    • Sony B Goode says:

      09:34am | 18/05/11

      nice display of dhimmitude from some people here.

      Al-Taqiyah is what you should all be aware of

      Islamic concept of Al-Taqiyah to infiltrate and destroy kafir countries
      http://www.hvk.org/articles/1202/56.html

    • MegaLawlz says:

      09:53am | 18/05/11

      LOL.

      Oh, you’re serious…I seriously doubt any religion in the world advocates this ‘infiltrate and destroy’ mechanism. Surely it would go against what all religions essentially preach, which is to live in harmony with the world around you? Common sense, really.

    • Sony B Goode says:

      10:27am | 18/05/11

      Islam is not a religion, this is a myth, it is a cult that cannot be questioned, challenged or tarnished. Simply insulting islam will lead in a fatwah on your head by established clergy.

      In islam there are two houses, the house of peace for the believers and the house of war for the infidels. Islam is only peaceful for the faithful, jihad is the only option for infidels, non-believers.  Dhimmitude, slavery to muslims, is the fate of all infidels.

      The methodology of islam are no different to any cult:
      http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/sina/cultorreligion.htm

      Turkey’s constitution was specifically drafted by Ataturk to try to limit islam’s control over every aspect of peoples lives, something which muslims to this day are trying to undermine. Ataturk clearly recognised the danger islam posed to a Turkish secular state.

      islam is not a religion and cannot be treated as such.

    • Barney says:

      09:35am | 18/05/11

      How peaceful a world without any religion could be -  what is wrong with the human race that we have to invent some rubbish to believe in .

    • Truthseeker says:

      10:49am | 18/05/11

      Hey Barney, I know many people who are inspired and are better people because they are Christians. Also Christianity promotes peace, non violence, care (love your neighbors as you love yourself). etc.
      Your idea that the world would be more peaceful without religion is showing your ignorance about the Christian faith. Its people who sometimes give a bad name to Christianity. Islam however is a total different religion altogether as we can see all over the world, do I need say more???

    • Budz says:

      11:11am | 18/05/11

      Oh Truthseeker, have you actually read the Bible? It’s as bad as the Quar’an! The only difference is that Christians choose more wisely the parts of the Bible they live by.

    • fml says:

      11:15am | 18/05/11

      truthseeker,

      Yes you do,

      “Its people who sometimes give a bad name to Christianity.” This can be applied to all religions. Your just the same as any religious nut, See the best in your religion and the worst in the rest. If you really sought truth you would learn about all religions and philosophies.

    • Sony B Goode says:

      12:23pm | 18/05/11

      There is no religion that has an equivalent concept of Dar al-Islam and dar al-harb: the House of Islam and the House of War. google it.

      Christianity has been tamed, islam has not. We have a clear separation of state and church. You can’t compare historical Christianity to modern islam.

      Nor are the koran and its surrounding documents in any way comparable to the bible or any other religious book.

      Again create a documentary that criticises islam and see how long you can survive without state protection. Repeat exercise with any other real religion.

      Threaten to burn the koran and count the bodies…

      Islam is not a religion it is a violent cult.

    • Truthseeker says:

      12:46pm | 18/05/11

      Budz, Christians go by the new testament and follow Christs teachings. The old testament has been overtaken and are not to be followed by Christians. I agree the old testament is full of questions, but they were written at a different time and age. The new testament is beautiful.

    • Markus says:

      01:21pm | 18/05/11

      And even the Old Testament, while documenting the origins of Judaism, is not the word of God like the Quran is to Islam.

      Apples and oranges.

    • Budz says:

      04:09pm | 18/05/11

      Truthseeker: The Old Testament was written at a different time and age? I thought they were the words of god, and as such timeless. Same with the New Testament, if it is the word of god, it should be timeless and perfect, and should not be upto interpretation etc.

    • Dave says:

      09:35am | 18/05/11

      There has already been a white flight from public schools with high numbers of Muslim students. The introduction of Halal food and Islamic uniforms will accelerate even more this process. We should return to the basic principal that public schools are secular and religion should ignored altogether. If you want religion in school, you go to a religious school.

    • MegaLawlz says:

      10:06am | 18/05/11

      So in a secular state you should be able to wear whatever you want, and if you want your uniform to cover a bit more of your skin you should be allowed, no? I can understand not teaching religion in state schools, and if we’re going to be properly secular we should abolish all religious-based holidays (Christmas, Easter) and replace them with non-religious ones. And given that the Queen is our sovereign and she is the head of the Church of England, we should probably also become a republic.

      Except that most people don’t care. Having a kosher or halal sign on a food doesn’t change what is in the food, it just means that jews/muslims can eat it. All fruit and vegetables are halal - are people going to stop eating them if we label these accordingly? It’s essentially just integrating all of our cultures and trying to accomodate for everyone, which is what Australia is about (eg. I’m sure most of you eat pizza and falafel now that we’ve accepted the Greeks and Italians).  YOu come here to have the freedom to express yourself and your faith without persecution. Without persecution being the key phrase here.

      If you choose to say no after an informed debate, fair enough. But a blanket no just undermines the whole freedom of communication thing. And it makes us look narrow-minded. We should at least be willing to hear out the other side, just as we expect them to hear us out.

    • Colmac says:

      02:20pm | 18/05/11

      MegaLawlz say’s “Except that most people don’t care. Having a kosher or halal sign on a food doesn’t change what is in the food, it just means that jews/muslims can eat it.”

      Have a look at what the RSPCA states about Halal slaughter. If you are happy that it takes place in a civilised Australia, well, Shame on you.

      http://kb.rspca.org.au/What-is-halal-slaughter_116.html

    • MegaLawlz says:

      05:24pm | 18/05/11

      @Colmac - from what I can tell it complies with Australian standards. The animal is supposed to be restrained and calm, and the cut should be a single quick cut to the neck so the spinal cord severed and thus no pain. How is this wrong? And why is it that anytime something people don’t agree with it suddenly becomes ‘un-Australian’ as opposed to inhumane or immoral or wrong??

    • shane murphy says:

      09:36am | 18/05/11

      A plea from Sydney’s harbour bridge or the act of throwing a child off Westgate Bridge or a murder suicide that kills 4,  suggests our family law system is broken.
      Paul Rogers just killed his ex, her lover and his kid. How does Sharia Law prevent this from happening? How are the innocent protected?

    • Sony B Goode says:

      10:02am | 18/05/11

      The family law system is extremely broken, a result of chardonnay cultural socialism, it is a clear abandonment of principle of natural justice and transformation of the family court system into a mysandrist welfare system.

      And indeed the islamic cult is massive threat to freedom.

      Multiculturalism is the perfect foothold for Al-Taqiyah.


      Follow the course of islam in Kosovo and witness firsthand the strategy over decades. Islam has succeeded in the eviction of all Christians and destruction of all Christian churches from Kosovo, which was Serbian Christian Orhodox heartland, entirely through the strategy of Al-taqiyah, playing Europe and the US for useful idiots.

      In the middle east, there has never been a state of Palestine and there never should be, to allow such is to succumb to Al-Taqiyah and to be played again for useful idiots.

    • Zaf says:

      11:14am | 18/05/11

      Actually, there’s nothing stopping Muslims in Australia from ordering their lives according to any set of rules they want (so any version of sharia) today, so long as everybody involved agrees to the rules.  You only need to modify the law of the land if everybody involved DOESN’T agree to the set of rules.

      http://muslimvillage.com/2011/05/17/australian-muslims-call-for-aspects-of-sharia-law-to-be-considered/

      From which:

      [In an interview with The Australian, the organisation’s president, Ikebal Adam Patel, who wrote the submission, nominated family law and specifically divorce as an area where moderate interpretations of sharia could co-exist within the Australian legal system….

      “…most of the regulations in Islamic law may be amended, changed, altered, and adapted to social change.

      “Therefore, Muslims Australia-AFIC takes the position that Islamic law is changeable according to the requirements of different places and times, and therefore suits the values shared by Australian people,” the submission says.

      A hardline reading of sharia confers unilateral divorce rights on men, while women who initiate divorce are stripped of their property and financial entitlements.

      A more moderate interpretation and common practice in Islamic countries is to recognise divorce by mutual consent….

      “This is about personal issues about family, and won’t affect any other Australian,” he said.]


      What a set of weasel words!  If Islamic law is so in tune with the values of the Australian people why does existing Australian law have to be modified to align with it?  Is existing Australian law not in tune with Australian values?  What about divorce initiated by a woman?  What about equal inheritance rights for men and women, or equality between men and women in a court of law? 

      There are NO advantages to women from integrating any version of Islamic law into the existing Australian legal code.  All that will do is severely limit the freedom of Muslim women to divorce deadbeat husbands.  Which is the only point of this dishonest submission by Ikebal Patel. 

      (So far unsupported (as far as I can tell) by any Leftists.)

    • Bee says:

      07:51pm | 22/05/11

      Shane, if you thinking murdering children is an understandable response to ANYTHING you need to see a psychiatrist - urgently. My understanding is that the vile Westgate murderer had custody. That was how he was able to get the daughter? To throw her off the bridge? He and that prick who drove his boys into the dam just wanted to punish their wives. They are evil men. Psychopaths. And every time I hear of something like this happening, i don’t think “Poor blokes, victims of this family law system.” I think, “Well, there you go. They were violent and bad. That’s why they were divorced in the first place. If only they had been denied custody, maybe those kids would still be alive”

    • Jim Peters says:

      09:42am | 18/05/11

      It is not the job of Australia to bend over backwards and sacrifice the very principals that our society is based on (such as separation from church and one law for all) to suit immigrants and minorities. It is not Australia’s responsibility to “overcome chasms”. You come to this country, you do so with the understanding that you follow Australian law, not Sharia Law, and you follow Australian customs, Australia doesnt change itself to suit you. END OF STORY. There is no room for debate here. If people are unable to follow such a simple requirement of entry to this country, then we need to stop bringing them in.

      How backwards the world is going. The century before last they were fighting for the separation of church and state. Last century it was the separation of religion and schools. Fifty years ago it was fighting against segregation.
      Now we have a group of people fighting for religious laws and fighting for state run religious schools and fighting for segregation. Wow, talk about one step forwards and two steps back.

      I fear for the sort of country, and world, my children will bring their children into.

    • fml says:

      11:30am | 18/05/11

      Who is fighting? They asked, they didnt get?

      Please stop with the histrionics.

    • Baal (read your bible, you know me). says:

      12:44pm | 18/05/11

      @Fml.
      Who is ignoring the historic and currently ongoing melding and clash of cultures and being too much of a soft touch to fight for anything worthwhile whilst ignoring that it the culmative affect of the personal choices of the collective that will determine our future culture and the world our children will inherit.

    • fml says:

      01:18pm | 18/05/11

      Baal,

      Hopefully your children will grow up with muslim friends and not be afraid of them.

    • alan says:

      09:47am | 18/05/11

      we dont want sharia law ,we dont want muslims ,we dont want their cruel ways with their women etc etc etc
      thats it final no more to say…..this is OUR COUNTRY…...

    • Janey says:

      03:23pm | 18/05/11

      Oh my alan with a small ‘a’.
      I worked with a Muslim doctor for years who saved many Anglo-Australian lives.
      I can’t imagine you saying those things to his face if you met him, I really hope you do not have children.

    • jeffb says:

      09:48am | 18/05/11

      Are the people opposed to Sharia law being practiced in Australia also opposed to Aboriginal or Jewish law being practiced?

    • James1 says:

      10:14am | 18/05/11

      It seems not.  I have been pointing out that we already have Koori and Murri courts in this country since yesterday, and very few people seem to care.  Some races are more equal than others, it would seem.  Aborigines can access special courts just for them, while the rest of us, Muslim and otherwise, have to put up with the regular type.

    • lostie says:

      10:32am | 18/05/11

      Just out of curiosity - where are these courts (as an arbiter of law) just for aboriginal people?

    • Septimus says:

      10:49am | 18/05/11

      lostie,

      There are plenty of Aboriginal courts in the Aboriginal communites across Australia (FNQ, Northern Territory)

    • jeffb says:

      11:46am | 18/05/11

      James1, these courts don’t supersede Australian law rather present Australian law in a different way resulting in a more efficient justice system, there is plenty of evidence about their effectiveness.

      It also pays to remember that the majority of cases these courts hear are civil cases no criminal, ie cases regarding the way you have chosen to live your life. If you get married in a church who are we to deny you getting a divorce in a church?

      Who are we to deny mediation between two parties by a figure they both respect?

      Its about having a smart and effective justice system not a tough and dumb one.

    • James1 says:

      01:32pm | 18/05/11

      “Its about having a smart and effective justice system not a tough and dumb one.”

      Not really.  It is about having a racist justice system, where some races can access one form of justice, and other races are excluded.

    • jeffb says:

      01:56pm | 18/05/11

      Thats not true at all James1, the laws are exactly the same in criminal cases, the format may be a little different but that has no effect on the outcomes at all.

      The justice system does not give different outcomes for different races.

      Civil cases are another matter, I assume you’re also against sport tribunals? They’re exactly the same principle as community courts, whether they be aboriginal or islamic.

      If you want to have your divorce case heard in a Sharia court, go for it, it is your choice.

    • James1 says:

      05:03pm | 18/05/11

      I also want any potential criminal cases to be heard in a Koori court while I’m at it jeffb.

      I have no Aboriginal heritage - I’m the son of Irish migrants.  Surely I’ll still qualify though.  Surely they wouldn’t be racist enough to exclude me on the basis of my race…

    • jeffb says:

      05:24pm | 18/05/11

      James1 that is like complaining that you can’t join a womens gym because you’re male, get over it, the outcome is exactly the same.

    • Sad Sad Reality says:

      09:49am | 18/05/11

      Are you tired of carrying the blame for all the rapes you commit?

      Are you over only marrying adults?

      Are you angry that homosexuals can walk around alive?

      Are you sick of sitting through murder trial after murder trial for your no good kaffir marrying daughter’s?

      Would you like to watch the execution of one of your adulterous neighbours this weekend?

      Do you think the term stoned is too abstract in western culture?

      Vote Sharia. As dictated by Muhammad. Sure he touched some children, but the man was a great entertainer.

    • jeffb says:

      11:32am | 18/05/11

      Nice straw man.

      If you actually had a brain able to comprehend a sentence you would know that there would be no change to Australian Criminal Law if Sharia Law was recognised in civil cases…

    • Sony B Goode says:

      12:11pm | 18/05/11

      its not a straw man.

      try publishing a cartoon mocking the prophet of islam and see what your response is and how long you stay alive without state protection.

      repeat the same exercise with any central figure of a real religion.

      this exercise is all anyone needs to understand about the islamic cult.

    • Sad Sad Reality says:

      12:35pm | 18/05/11

      Yeah, jeffb, for now anyway. Thin edge of the wedge. For the thick end of the wedge, check out that wonderland of tolerance Iran.

    • jeffb says:

      01:48pm | 18/05/11

      Again with the strawmen, Australia isn’t Iran.

      How about we deal with the facts rather than whatever is going on in the dark corners of your small brain.

    • Sad Sad Reality says:

      02:09pm | 18/05/11

      “Australia isn’t Iran.”

      Let’s keep it that way. You don’t like the Australian legal system? Fine. Leave. End of disingenuous, overly pedantic chat.

    • jeffb says:

      03:42pm | 18/05/11

      I’m fine with the Australian legal system, you on the other hand seem to have a problem with it. We already allow groups to conduct their own civil courts, why shouldn’t Muslims be allowed the same opportunity?

      Who are you to dictate how someone else lives their life? You’re essentially arguing against freedom of religion, one of the very core values of Australian society. Perhaps you should leave.

      I’ll repeat, if someone wants to get married under a certain religion why shouldn’t they also be allowed to get divorced under that religion?

      If you don’t want to have anything to do with a particular community court then I suggest you have nothing to do with that community. It is that simple.

    • Lloyd says:

      09:50am | 18/05/11

      Not a big fan of any religion, but Islam really takes the cake for intolerance and stupidity. They are openly homophobic and I resent the things they have done to homosexuals in the name of Sharia law. They need to know that we are a progressive free thinking country that could NEVER be like Saudi Arabia or Iran.

    • TheRealDave says:

      10:51am | 18/05/11

      The funny thing is, go to Afghanistan and be prepared to be propositioned by other men. I think it was 3 Para that christened Tuesday as ‘Man Love Night’ given the numbers of dolled up Afghan men walking around holding hands and ‘doing what come snatural to Afghan men’. As a further hilarous example, I was reading Doug Beattie’s first book and he was dismayed to come across an unmanned checkpoint ina very voaltile area…only to find the Afhgan soldiers inside a bunker enjoying each otehrs company…as it were…

      Sure, tehre may be one or two hardline Islamic cultures around, but elsewhere, its a lot more flagrant than our supposedly free and modern western nations.

    • Lloyd says:

      04:20pm | 21/05/11

      Yes, I have read stuff like that TRD. It is funny isn’t it, how this underground movement thrives, but officially they’re dead against it, and it is only if they find out that they’re in shit. It was the 2005 case of the two 16 year old boys hung in Mashad, Iran, for consensual sex that sparked my outrage at all things Sharia. As for the soldiers in the bunker story…I think I’ve seen a movie like that…:)

    • iansand says:

      09:54am | 18/05/11

      We should get rid of the AFL and NRL disciplinary tribunals as well.  Who said those guys could apply their own laws in their own courts?

    • L says:

      02:54pm | 18/05/11

      ...the contracts the players, coaches and clubs agreed to perhaps..??

      wink

    • iansand says:

      03:09pm | 18/05/11

      Or perhaps the organisations to which they belong?  It doesn’t really matter.  They are systems of law and courts outside the mainstream.  Therefore they should be banned on the fruitcake logic on display in this thread.

    • Steve Thompson says:

      09:57am | 18/05/11

      The Multiculturalism being enforced in western countries by the politically correct brigade is a disaster. Multiculturalism made us tolerate the intolerant. “Multiculturalism” must be abandoned. You can not force people of vastly differing cultures to live in the same place.

      I welcome immigrants. I welcome refugees. But I do not welcome people who want to enforce a sixth century culture on twenty-first century Australia.

    • The Vivid Writer says:

      10:19am | 18/05/11

      The day we abandon Multiculturalism is the day you and your fellow ‘Brown Shirts’ (aka TrueBlueShirts) will take the direction towards the new Nuremberg Trials..and you’ll be making a plea.

    • Sony B Goode says:

      10:50am | 18/05/11

      Vivid I think you are confused about history. nazies were socialists, national socialists to be specific, Hitler was staunchly anti-capitalist, whereas the Russians were international socialists and equaly authoritarian.

    • Demoman says:

      12:56pm | 18/05/11

      Try to stick to Sharia Law, Vivid, not Godwin’s.

    • John says:

      01:02pm | 18/05/11

      Hitler was a socialist, in racial sense. His belief was that Aryans(white race) had the instinct for working for the community.
      They would obey the law, work and help others for the interest of their people. He liked this idea, He hated the International Banks as he seen them as vehicles of self interest, who would loot the wealth of a nations and lead nations astray. He would of called this non-Aryan expressions. I think Hitler wanted to create super society, and believed that only Aryans could bring it and the other race’s should and looked up to this new super society. But yes, it was a one party state, but he did have the full support of the German people, and nobody knows how it would of turned out if they won the war, Would he turned into Stalin? turn into cold blooded savage killer, who knows.

    • Anna C says:

      09:58am | 18/05/11

      Sharia Law is inconsistent with the rights and freedoms we enjoy living in a Western Democracy. Sharia Law openly discrimminates against women, gay people etc. For example under Sharia Law a man automatically gets custody of his children following separation. Also under Sharia Law a woment only inherits half of what a man can inherit and a man is allowed to have four wives. 

      Sharia Law cannot be allowed to get a legitimate toe-hold in Australian society.  We have separation between church and state in this country and there are good reasons for this. There is ONE LAW of the land and it applies to everyone regardless of their race, religion or nationality. Muslims seeking the introduction of Sharia Law should either learn to accept our way of life or go and live in a Muslim country.

      Quite frankly I am sick to death of these debates that keep popping up around the Muslim community e.g. Burkha ban; asylum seekers debate; terrorism debate; lack of intergration; female circumcision and now this.  Can someone please explain to me why we have so many Muslims migrating here, if all they want to do is change our way of life? Why would a Muslim move to a Western Democratic country if they want to live under Sharia Law? Seems inconsistent to me.

      The Muslim community would do well to follow the example of other migrant groups who came before them and have successfully intergrated into our society like the Greeks, Italians, Vietnamese, Chinese etc. Work hard, pay your taxes, intergrate and stop making so many demands. Bringing attention to yourselves like this won’t help your cause and if anything could lead to a call for the banning of all future Muslim immigration.

    • Anna C says:

      09:58am | 18/05/11

      Sharia Law is inconsistent with the rights and freedoms we enjoy living in a Western Democracy. Sharia Law openly discrimminates against women, gay people etc. For example under Sharia Law a man automatically gets custody of his children following separation. Also under Sharia Law a woment only inherits half of what a man can inherit and a man is allowed to have four wives. 

      Sharia Law cannot be allowed to get a legitimate toe-hold in Australian society.  We have separation between church and state in this country and there are good reasons for this. There is ONE LAW of the land and it applies to everyone regardless of their race, religion or nationality. Muslims seeking the introduction of Sharia Law should either learn to accept our way of life or go and live in a Muslim country.

      Quite frankly I am sick to death of these debates that keep popping up around the Muslim community e.g. Burkha ban; asylum seekers debate; terrorism debate; lack of intergration; female circumcision and now this.  Can someone please explain to me why we have so many Muslims migrating here, if all they want to do is change our way of life? Why would a Muslim move to a Western Democratic country if they want to live under Sharia Law? Seems inconsistent to me.

      The Muslim community would do well to follow the example of other migrant groups who came before them and have successfully intergrated into our society like the Greeks, Italians, Vietnamese, Chinese etc. Work hard, pay your taxes, intergrate and stop making so many demands. Bringing attention to yourselves like this won’t help your cause and if anything could lead to a call for the banning of all future Muslim immigration.

    • Ben says:

      11:27am | 18/05/11

      As a member of one of the ‘successfully intergrated groups’ that you mention, I can say that there were people in the 1950’s and 1960’s arguing exactly the same about all those groups.

      This fear of Islam that you portray is just the ramblings of yet another ignorant group whose ‘fears’ and ‘concerns’ will be mocked 40 years from now. A century from now, school children will ask why Australians were so scared of Muslim immigration, and teachers will struggle to explain the rationale behind it - just as we today look down upon the old ‘white australia policy’.

      You state that they want to change our way of life because they have come from a country that is socially conservative and religiously focused. The post-war Italian migrants travelled here from an ex-Fascist state, a country of 98% Catholic tradition, and there was no harm to Australian society. As Orthodox churches appeared all over Australian cities from the floods of migrants from Eastern Europe and Greece, there was no harm. As Vietnamese shops and cultural enclaves began to appear in the 1970’s, there was no harm.

      You say that the Muslim community would do well to follow the examples of the past. I say that you would do well to also learn from the past - Immigration and multiculturalism has been a success for this country. Read a book.

    • Anna C says:

      12:35pm | 18/05/11

      Actually Ben, I am well aware that “post-war Italian migrants travelled here from an ex-Fascist state, a country of 98% Catholic tradition, and there was no harm to Australian society,” given that I my own parents were post war migrants from Italy.  It may suprise you but there are a lot of people like me, who as children of migrants naturally support immigration but, are increasingly concerned about Muslim immigration and all its associated problems.

    • fml says:

      01:21pm | 18/05/11

      AnnaC

      Re-read Ben’s Post.

    • Liberator says:

      01:45pm | 18/05/11

      Corrent, Ben.
      And, didn’t those post-war Italian migrants along with the Vietnamese and a multitudes of other Europeoan, Asian, African immigrants integrate into Aussie society. And, none of them wished or felt that they needed to live under a special set laws in parallel with Aussie law in order to feel welcome.

    • Don Bland says:

      10:03am | 18/05/11

      The argument put forward by AFIC that marriage, divorce and inheritance are family matters, of no relevance to broader society is false. These are issues of the rights of women as equal members of society. Sharia law vastly favours men in these social transactions, while Islam is generally tolerant of domestic violence and husbands asserting their “sexual rights” forcefully.

      We are failing women in these situations by allowing Sharia practices to be followed. If there are genuinely areas where Sharia improves the status of women then perhaps we should look at incorporating them into our legal system for the benefit of all.

    • SA says:

      10:06am | 18/05/11

      The Catholic Church has Canon Law and the Islamic religion has Sharia Law…so where is the issue?  This is just another news headline designed to bring out the phobias of the ignorant.

    • Matt says:

      10:47am | 18/05/11

      Canon Law doesn’t routinely result in the stoning of people, forced marriages, limbs being amputated, people being beheaded, young girls forced in to marriages with perverted old paedophiles, women forced to cover themselves from head to toe and being forbidden to drive or receive an education, etc.

      I might add, and this is an important point for most Australians.  In Islam, alcohol is forbidden!  As is pornography (Bin Laden was a hypocrite) and pork products.

      So SA this is a little more than an attention grabbing headline. 

      Muslims modus operandi is to move to an area under the guise of being a tolerant and peace loving religion.  They continue this until they reach a certain percentage of the population, when they then start asking/demanding Sharia Law.  Then the riots start!

      Don’t believe me?  Look at France, Denmark, Sweden, UK and Spain.  They are all having the exact problems that I mentioned, to varying degrees dependant on the percentage of muslims. 

      We do not want that situation in Australia, but it is inevitable.  Especially if we start allowing Sharia in to our legal system.

    • Steve Thompson says:

      10:58am | 18/05/11

      You don’t need to be ignorant. Just read the Koran yourself. You’ll see where Sharia law comes from.

    • SA says:

      11:36am | 18/05/11

      Yes Steve people should read the Koran before making statements…and then they would see how Sharia law protects women..not just the cultural interpretations we see i the news.  Matt..have a read of the Old Testament…then we can discuss stoning - cutting children in half just to name a couple…and as with many of the people making comments they have missed the point…the law only relates Muslims and within a non-Islamic country it is limited to issues that are non guided by the existing laws of the country.  When you read some of these comments one would think Australia is going to be an Islamic nation and the ‘law of the land’ was changing. Paranoia folks…

    • TheRealDave says:

      01:29pm | 18/05/11

      Well…not any more Matt, but it did for a long long time wink

    • Matt says:

      03:16pm | 18/05/11

      Dave - Yes the catholic church did do some pretty bad things over the years, but they have “evolved” with the times so to speak.

      Islam cannot evolve with the times because the Koran, Sura and Hadith are all classed as the true words/deeds of Allah and his greatest prophet.  Therefore it is beyond man to change, or challenge, anything they did.  And the preaching in the Koran is more about intolerance, hatred and violence than it is about peace.

      Of course there are muslims out there, and Simon, who will argue that Islam preaches peace and tolerance, and they might even quote some well known phrases from the Koran. 

      However, there is a concept in Islam (that is kept pretty quiet to Westerners), called “Abrogation”.  It basically means that the later verses in the Koran override the first ones.  So at the start there is a slight hinting of peace, but it is overruled many times later in the same book.  And it’s the verses of hatred that are to be followed.

      The so called “Religion of Peace” is nothing but a death cult, with a 1300 year history of violence, oppression, murder, slavery, rape and paedophilia.  Still that was the example set my Mohammed - contained in the Sura (story of his life).  Argue that one Simon!!!

    • grumpy old man says:

      10:07am | 18/05/11

      someone help me out here, because I don’t understand.
      A person who practices the Islam faith is living in a country ruled by Islamic law. they decide they don’t like this, so they hop on a boat, throw all their ID away, and come to Australia.
      One would presume that they do this because Australia is a secular country, and they would rather live in a secular country.
      This being the case, why do they then want to cling to the very reasons that made them leave their previous country and come here?
      AND if we are really a secular country, why is any religious activity in our schools tolerated and not outlawed? this includes school chaplains etc etc?
      I think we are really fooling ourselves if we believe we are a secular society,

    • MDG says:

      03:45pm | 18/05/11

      First, you’re assuming that all Muslims arrive here irregularly by boat.  This is not correct.

      Second, you’re assuming that Muslims come to Australia because Australia is secular.  This does not take into account Australia’s prosperity, business and educational opportunities.  And, for those few who do come by boat, the fact that nobody here is actively trying to kill them.

      The last part of your post I completely agree with.

    • Leo says:

      10:08am | 18/05/11

      All Australians are from somewhere else - unless your an Aborigine.

      Seems to me that the mix of cultures work together very well and although there are cultural and racial enclaves everywhere they happily co-exist and provide for great culinary and social adventures.

      Moslem’s however don’t seem to tolerate non-Moslem’s. An individuals skin colour, beliefs or traditions are irrelevant as long as as they are committed to supporting the values, freedoms and cultural mix that is Australia. If the law’s and cultural traditions of the homeland meet the demands of Moslem’s why come here demanding that we change, stay there and work to improve that country.

      The government need to greatly increase the flow of European, South American and east Asian’s immigrants and avoid Moslem’s who can’t demonstrate a sincere desire to integrate.

    • Mark says:

      11:49am | 18/05/11

      All Australians come from some where else including Aborigines. In the end all of us are Africans. This idea that someone who had more ancestors that came here 50,000 years ago then me is therefore not from somewhere else & I am is rubbish.

      Most of my ancestors came to Australia over 150 years ago, a small percentage 50,000 years ago. I do not go around saying I am more Australian then someone whose parents where born somewhere else. It is offensive & racist.

    • Leo says:

      03:49pm | 18/05/11

      Mark, you have missed the point. This thread is about Moslem’s and their cultural acceptance within our society as it stands today. What happened 50,000 years ago can only be guessed at, and who your forebears were is irrelevant. Aborigines are accepted by the majority as the first Australian’s. But being Australian has nothing to do with a birthplace, skin colour, culture or religion, its a state of mind !

      It is my opinion that the vast array of cultures that gather and intermingle in this country practise acceptable levels of inter-racial tolerance: except Moslem’s. No other group of migrants have sought to dominate Australia’s cultural reform agenda in the way Moslem’s have. I believe I am in the majority that feel this way and we are sick of it.

    • Benzhi says:

      10:10am | 18/05/11

      I run away from SHaria LAW and I DONT want to see it ever again!

    • Dan says:

      10:12am | 18/05/11

      Most of the countries that the Muslims are running from have Sharia Law.
      Why are they running from it ?
      Sharia is evil and barbaric.

      We grew to where we are now as a Christian nation - respect it.

    • L. says:

      10:31am | 18/05/11

      “Why are they running from it ?”

      Are you sure..?

      How do you know they are not running from civil war or simply because they want safe drinking water?

      I don’t think Saudi Arabia has a huge refugee issue (people leaving).

    • Tony H says:

      01:53pm | 18/05/11

      Yep, it could be that they are only here for the public housing, centrelink and medicare.

    • L. says:

      02:32pm | 18/05/11

      “Yep, it could be that they are only here for the public housing, centrelink and medicare. “

      Compared to most of the planet, that’s pretty good incentive in it’s own right.

    • dylan says:

      10:13am | 18/05/11

      <There is such a thing as universal human rights; it is valid and valuable to treasure what we have in our liberal democracy, and to wish the same for other people (and to use what international clout we have to push for better societies without resorting to imperialism).>

      This statement is somewhat breathtaking in its arrogance. Western societies are entitled to practise their own values in their countries but internationally, are in no position to lecture other cultures and “push” them to adopt Western values .

      Would Tory be just as comfortable if a Confucianist or Islamist took that same view about their universality of their values and tried to “push” Australia to adopt their values? Without resorting to imperialism of course.

    • Nicky says:

      10:25am | 18/05/11

      “to make sure that the benefits of a secular democracy are better understood in migrant communities….”

      Immigrant Muslims understand secular democracy better than you think, Tory. It’s just that their religion rejects it. The more Muslims that emigrate here, the more that make up our society, the more Islamic it will become.

      ..and with regard to Sharia, just setting the precedent for limited use will open up the possibitily of using the whole jurisprudence one day. Slippery slope.

    • Matt says:

      10:25am | 18/05/11

      It is all good and well to say that they are only asking for divorce and marriage laws, but once they get a foot in the door, it makes it that much easier to implement other Sharia practices.

      And yes people are legitamitely concerned about the pervading influence of muslims, Islam and Sharia. 

      Sharia law does explicitly rule that adulterous women are to be stoned, that a raped woman is to be stoned. that a man can have sex slaves, multiple wives and underage children as wives.  Arranged marriages are allowed and common, beheadings and limp amputations are also allowed.

      Look at places where Sharia is, or was, implemented.  Iran, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Sudan, etc.  The human rights violations are enormous, particularly against women. 

      So yes Australians should be concerned about this little introduction of Sharia.  It is the first step to full Islamic Law being part of our country, and that is completely unacceptable. 

      And why do muslims move here, and then want to change the place?  There are plenty of countries that follow their bizarre death cults mentality, so move there instead.  Or stay here and follow Australian laws, language and culture.

    • simon says:

      10:59am | 18/05/11

      Actually thats as lie. 

      Married adulterers are to be stoned.  unmarried adulterers are to be flogged.

      Rape is a capital punishment in islam and rapists are punished by death.

      You will not find a single narration in islamic scriptures which shows that raped women are to be stoned… and to suggest that there is merely shows your ignorance.  I challenge you to show writing from a primary or secondary islamic text (quran or hadith) which states that a raped woman is to be stoned.

      If you dont accept the challenge - you’re unaustralian and simply not “true blue”. smile

    • Krys says:

      12:07pm | 18/05/11

      Simon
      Your correct in that adulterous women are to be stoned. heres the verses.

      [Bukhari 3,38,508] Mohammed said, “Unais, confront this man’s wife and if she admits committing adultery have her stoned to death.”

      [Bukhari 8,82,803] Ali had a woman stoned to death on a Friday and said, “I have punished her as Mohammed would have.”

      Bit of background about Bukhari’s text is that Sunni Muslims view this as their most trusted collection of hadith and it is considered the most authentic book after the Qur’an

      want to see some more misogynist and troglodytic excerpts from Muslim texts? http://debate.org.uk/topics/coolcalm/women.html

    • Lisa H. says:

      06:29pm | 18/05/11

      Simon you must know that because Rape is hard for a woman to prove as a woman’s testimony is worth little in comparison to a man’s.

      Therefore, if she complains to the police about rape, the man in question must merely state that she was complicit, and viola!
      The victim perhaps becomes the adulterer! Or at any rate, not a victim any more.

      But surely you know that. Why not be honest about the cultural practice? To hide aspects of the story is dishonest.

    • David LD says:

      10:27am | 18/05/11

      If you are not a muslim, sharia law does not apply to you.

    • Bill Smith says:

      10:55am | 18/05/11

      The stoning and chopping will come later I say to the Greenies who are encouraging these people to come here. They come here and not go to other rich muslim nations because they actively want to proselityze us. Yes they want to change US.  When they are numerous enough, they will attack Christian churches and drive us to leave for safer shores. Is this hysteria? No it is happening today to Christians and Copts in the Middle East.  In Sydney I met the most fanatic muslims among newly arrived Pakistanis.

    • Sony B Goode says:

      10:57am | 18/05/11

      dhimmitude however does.

      It is very difficult to make any negative comments on islam publically without attracting violence and murder (fatwa).  I believe Salmon Rushdie is still living in hiding and under state protection, simply for criticising islam.

    • Anna C says:

      11:00am | 18/05/11

      David LD, you are extremely niave if you think that Sharia Law would not apply to on-Muslims.  I have heard of cases in for example Indoneasia involving mixed couples i.e. Muslim and non-Muslims couples where the non-Muslims was seeking divorces contrary to the wishes of their spouses.  These non-Muslims were subjected to harsh treatment under Sharia Law resulting in them losing all custodial rights to their children. Normally non-Muslims in Indoneasia are not subject to Sharia Law but in these cases they were. What is to stop the same thing from happening here happening here?

    • Anna C says:

      11:00am | 18/05/11

      David LD, you are extremely niave if you think that Sharia Law would not apply to on-Muslims.  I have heard of cases in for example Indoneasia involving mixed couples i.e. Muslim and non-Muslims couples where the non-Muslims was seeking divorces contrary to the wishes of their spouses.  These non-Muslims were subjected to harsh treatment under Sharia Law resulting in them losing all custodial rights to their children. Normally non-Muslims in Indoneasia are not subject to Sharia Law but in these cases they were. What is to stop the same thing from happening here happening here?

    • James1 says:

      11:13am | 18/05/11

      “David LD, you are extremely niave if you think that Sharia Law would not apply to on-Muslims.”

      You are extremely hysterical and ill-informed if you think that it would, I am afraid.  Read the submission, get some perspective, and stop discussing you fantasies and passing them off as reality.

    • Markus says:

      11:17am | 18/05/11

      If you are a citizen or a permanent resident of Australia, it should not apply to you either.

    • averill says:

      11:23am | 18/05/11

      If this is so - why are they hell bent on bringing this in as ‘Australian’ Law??
      Why are they not satisfied with the status quo - sharia law applied to muslims in their own community?

    • SA says:

      11:27am | 18/05/11

      nice to read an intelligent comment!

    • Missy says:

      11:39am | 18/05/11

      @James1,

      Unfortunately, my dear sir, you are the naive one here.

      I’ve lived in enough muslim countries to know how it works there.

      Egypt used to have a healthy Coptic Christian population but it was whittled down to less than 9% today through discrimination, persecution and oppression of non-islamic religion.

      They all start off saying that sharia is not for ‘non-muslims’ but its always the non-muslims who get the big stick when some political party, fanatical/ambitious imam (muslim priest) wants to make a point.

      Australia released stats a while ago - I was surprised to read it because even I subscribed to some racial stereotypes, but it makes sense.

      Of all the refugees who have settled in Australia, the highest proportion of refugees who pay tax are the African Christians who have fled persecution.

      The lowest were Afghanis and Iraqis.

      Countries like Malaysia where they are supposedly ‘moderate’ practise sharia law where muslims who want to convert out of islam face ‘rehabilitation’ (since they can’t behead or it would spoil their moderate image). Read the case of Linda Joy.
      People have reported being fed feces, being beaten up and tortured to pressurise them to renounce their faith and return to islam.
      Muslims are given special rights.

      In Indonesia, thousands of ethnic Chinese (who are mostly Christian and Buddhist) fled during the religious and racial riots. 6 month old baby girls were digitally ‘deflowered’ before being killed so they would die as non-virgins (because muslims believe babies go to heaven as they cannot choose), which doesn’t make sense since the babies were raped so it doesn’t count, logically.
      A friend’s sister was raped and killed. The surviving sister fled to Singapore. Her parents remained - changed their names to muslim sounding names, spoke only Indonesian instead of Chinese, stopped worshipping (only at home, privately and quietly or they would be mobbed if heard).

      I don’t mean to say that muslims here will be as blood thirsty as what happened, or that Australia will face some religious war.
      Most muslims I know are relatively nice people. But they tend to not dare to step out and denounce what they believe is wrong within their own ranks. That is bad.
      But they say, history repeats itself and one would be foolish to not think that some radical element would spring up.

      Better to make things clear from day 1 so that we bring up new generation of young Aussies who know clear cut - Australia is secular, separation of church and state (or religion and state) is paramount and fundamental to being Australian and Australia.
      When you blur the lines, you confuse people. When you confuse others, people push boundaries. All it takes is one popular, ambitious person to make use of that confusion to create chaos.

      I rather have had prevented it than let it happen and reel from the consequences.

    • James1 says:

      12:08pm | 18/05/11

      Sorry Missy I thought we were talking about Australia, not Egypt and Indonesia.  My apologies for raising irrelevancies and useless facts like context, and the actual content of the submission that we are all wetting our pants over.

    • Missy says:

      01:35pm | 18/05/11

      @james1,

      I know, right?

      Because muslims in Australia actually follow the Martian strain of islam not found in the rest of the world and Australia/Australians are actually aliens from outer space with no relation whatsoever to the rest of the world.

      I rest my case.

    • Anna C says:

      01:51pm | 18/05/11

      Actually James1,  it’s you who needs to “get some perspective, and stop discussing you fantasies and passing them off as reality.” People advocating the introduction of Sharia Law are a disgrace.  Is it not enough that Sharia Law is already creating lots of problems in this country?  For example I know of cases involving Muslim men in this country who have taken more than one wife and had them recognised under Sharia Law. These women are recognised as legitimate spouses by the Muslim community but not recognised under the law and so are claiming Parenting Payment Single (the old Sole Parents Pension). Why are taxpayers funds being used to help fund the lifestyle choices of these Muslim men. As someone who worked for Centrelink for 10 years,  this is an open secret.

    • James1 says:

      02:07pm | 18/05/11

      Missy, are you seriously trying to counter what the submission actually contains with some bizarre rant about Mars?  You ignore political culture, history, ethnic makeup, constitutions, immigration rates, birth rates, geography, religion, and prettty much everything else that makes our society different from Egypt and Indonesia.  Sure, I will admit that Egypt is more similar to Australia than Mars, but that sets a pretty low standard of similarity.  Wow, what a poor argument that is.

      The submission says what it says.  I cannot change that.  Saying that it is dishonest, or whatever you are claiming, because some stuff happened in Egypt and Indonesia is not an argument at all - it is just hysterics.  It just shows that you will make the evidence fit your predetermined position (and will reject any evidence which negates it), which I might add is a highly emotive one, most likely based on the experiences of your sister’s friend.  Not a good basis for the considerations of this inquiry.  If you were to raise that as evidence, the Committee would not even authorise it as a submission.  The secretariat would write back “Thank you for your letter.  We have raised it with the Committee, and the Committee considers that, as there is no factual basis for your conclusions, this can not be accepted as a submission, and we have entered it as correspondence.  You will not be required to appear before the Committee at a public hearing.”

    • James1 says:

      02:11pm | 18/05/11

      Read the submission Anna, before commenting further.  No one is advocating what you seem to think they are.

      Otherwise, I would love it if we were harder on dole bludgers and single mums of every colour, culture, and national origin.  I have no problem with that at all.

    • fml says:

      04:17pm | 18/05/11

      Anna C,

      “Why are taxpayers funds being used to help fund the lifestyle choices of these Muslim men”

      I read that article too.

      http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/growing-number-of-muslim-men-and-multiple-wives-exploiting-loophoole-for-taxpayer-handouts/story-e6frf7jo-1225837150560

      what you failed to mention is,

      ““There’s nothing preventing them from being in more than one ‘member of a couple’ relationship at a time,” he said. “In these cases, Centrelink pays each person the relevant income-tested payment at the partnered rate.”“

      So they are not getting paid any more than they are entitled too, and also, the article states that there are also non-muslims in de facto relationships trying the same thing, which is getting paid the amount they are entitled too, so i dont see what you are complaining about.

    • Missy says:

      10:40am | 19/05/11

      @james1,

      “Missy, are you seriously trying to counter what the submission actually contains with some bizarre rant about Mars?”

      The “bizarre” reference to Mars was you thinking that somehow Australia is so separate from the rest of the world it doesn’t have to take a leaf from the examples of countries around the world which has buckled under the results of the same thing we’re now going through!

      “Committee would not even authorise it as a submission.’

      As far as I’m concerned, I wasn’t aware I was writing this for a committee or an official enquiry.
      I was under the impression I was in a public forum where personal opinion is welcomed and debated, not rated for the template its presented under.

      Anyway,

      Back during the ‘White Australia” policy days, I’m sure they never envisaged such a radical shift in migration demographics and the problem of refugees.
      This is the problem. Australia can’t afford to rely on internal stats. You haven’t even gotten that large a history in terms of years to be have any substantial, reliable statistics which can be formulated into concise, or even, best estimate conclusions.

      Its logical to draw lessons and cues from other countries as well with a similar governance as Australia, bar other factors which are irrelevant.

      If Australia keeps ‘making things up’ as they go along, ignoring future growth and consequences for immediate greedy self gratification because of short term gains, its not you who will face these consequences, its the future generations that will have to contend with short sightedness.

    • James1 says:

      10:52am | 19/05/11

      It is not logical to draw those lessons from Indonesia and Egypt though.  But then you have made clear your aversion to logic.

    • Zac says:

      04:55pm | 20/05/11

      I just read the exchanges between Missy and James1. It again re-enforces the fact I have observed over many years of debate and blogging. James1 who is an Atheist and claims to be some sort of teacher or lecturer is delusional and live in some sort of utopia like the Atheist Communists. Who is more dangerous, the most “fanatical Muslims” or the “militant Atheist”? I have thought through this question in detail many times over and have come to the conclusion it’s “militant Atheist’s”. Many Atheist occupy positions of power and authority in society and wouldn’t know what reality is if it hit their face. I for one wouldn’t employ Atheists in any decision making role or position of power or authority.

    • Jon says:

      10:45am | 18/05/11

      I am not sure what is more appalling our spineless Politian’s or Sharia Law. This should be a no brainer and they should be yelling with bipartisan voices from the rooftops, NO SHARIA LAW EVER. But instead we get a nice statement from Robert McClelland.

      The Green are loudly silent and I know don’t know why. One would have thought it was part of a human rights agenda as Sharia Law makes women into second-class citizens. It also insists that they be stoned to death for adultery. It prescribes amputation for theft. It demands the death penalty for leaving Islam, and even for “insulting the prophet”. It demands death for homosexuality and includes many other practices that would be considered barbaric in any civilized country.

      Yes, hysteria by all means please!

    • Dee says:

      10:45am | 18/05/11

      Muslims say it is all right to lie to protect Islam so does that make Islam a lie.

    • greg says:

      10:52am | 18/05/11

      I am totally against any part of the law as its a the first step in.

      If you want to get full Sharia law you dont say you want it all you just say you want minor elements of it. The more acceptable ones. I m remember about 10 years ago a journo got howlled down because he stated that British Muslims wanted to introduce Shaira Law into certain areas of England. Sure enough it has happened.

      On the flip side aborginal australia can still practice some of thier laws, practices that is contry to Australia government law. It not so much condoned rather than turn a blind eye.  Aboriginal Australia is given a special place as part of the country only because thier family history is older than the rest of Australia, Why cant muslism get the same special treatment. ? 

      I believe one law for one people, Australian laws are very good, it generally protects the innocent, vunerable and needy. Yes there is still alone not quite right but generally the law is good.. Australia does accept almost all religious groups and all races.

      If you want islam as part of the law you cant forget about tolerance of other religious groups and equality of women.  Just take a quick look at countries dominated by Islam.  I know it not very PC but PC is starting to swing the other way and is harming our nation.

    • The Original Oz says:

      11:11am | 18/05/11

      The Koori courts still adhere to Australian law but they have dispensation to apply traditional tribal punishments (within reason). They are not conducted outside of Australian law.

    • James1 says:

      11:52am | 18/05/11

      That is also the case with what is proposed in the submission in question Oz.  Sharia divorce and dispute resolution does not contravene Australian law.  Can I now assume you have no problem with the submission’s proposal, in the same way you have no problem with Koori courts?

    • Lisa H. says:

      12:42pm | 18/05/11

      In my view it is very likely that the Aboriginal example resonates quite strongly with those Muslims pushing for a sharia law. One mess (the Aboriginal portfolio) leading to another, perhaps.

    • Lisa H. says:

      12:48pm | 18/05/11

      Islamic beliefs are not representative of race (although they are representative of culture) and therefore the comparison with Aboriginal systems should not be valid.
      Although it could be argued that Aboriginality is more of a cultural than race-based identification, as many Aboriginal people, including my own family, have a majority of Anglo ancestors.

    • Missy says:

      11:08am | 18/05/11

      The thing I find puzzling.
      Some muslims say that they are muslims first and can’t ignore the principles of their teachings just because they are expected to integrate into Australian or mainstream society.
      They claim that they can’t follow one thing and ignore the other (go into a pub and drink but yet women mixing with men, etc) so the need to implement sharia law is paramount to them being able to practise their religion properly.

      The general argument is that they can’t do halves as Muslims.

      Yet with the sharia law here they say that the law is only meant for divorces and marriages, inheritance issues, minor disputes, community and family issues.
      There would be no stoning, no beheading, eye for an eye (i.e. acid thrown on victim means victim’s family can choose to do same to perp), chopped limbs.

      So the full sharia law would not be implemented.
      But yet their argument is they can’t do things in halves. Do you see the irony?

      What I gather from this is simple. Just like the parking meters they recently introduced in traditional free-for-all parking areas in some suburbs which start at a $1, it is to send in an introductory ‘trial’ which others will more easily accept when implemented. People will think, its’ only a dollar, why not? (Its only for the muslims on minor issues, why not?)

      But soon the parking fees raise to $4, matching the city, because councils had already successfully introduced and made acceptable the parking meters. People gripe but they can’t do anything about it because they had sanctioned the very use of these parking meters in the first place, when lured and convinced to accept $1 ‘cheap’ parking.

      In the same way, this way to slowly introduce and normalise sharia is dangerous because it sets a very ambiguous precedent to the general public.

      By allowing exceptions for any society you leave the door open to pressurising by the groups when they decide that their numbers are large enough to warrant bullying others into accepting a concept/principles not acceptable to the rest of the populace (1/2 inheritance for women, unconditional verbal divorce for men - the divorce courts are only for women because women by sharia law need courts to divorce them. Reasons given are that they are ‘forgetful’, they are ‘under men’, they are ‘emotional’ and ‘do not know what they want’, etc).

      Read up about what sharia means for non-muslims.
      In a country governed by actual, proper sharia, you pay a submission tax as dhimmis (or Zimmi). The only way to not be forced to pay this tax is conversion.

      People of the book (Christians, Jews) and ‘fire worshippers’ cannot build any buildings of worship. Some schools of thought allow ‘maintainance’ what they ‘originally’ built earlier. No renovations, it should be plain in facade.

      Muslims, if they wish, are permitted to demolish all non-Muslim houses of worship in any land they conquer.

      You cannot gather and pray in public. You can pray in private but it cannot be loud enough for your muslim neighbours to hear lest you ‘influence’ them.

      Dhimmis are not permitted to broadcast or display their ceremonial religious rituals on radio or television or to use the media or to publish any picture of their religious ceremonies in newspaper and magazines.

      Non-muslims cannot be witnesses in a muslim court. You can only testify against another non-muslim.
      In an exceptional event where an islamic judge agrees to take on a case, the court MUST apply islamic law.

      I could go on and on.

      You are non-citizens and cannot join ANY politics, military, etc as you might influence them.
      The closest to actual implementation of sharia is Saudi Arabia. Even then they are still quite lenient because they leave out a couple of inconvenient or just very rudimentary laws. (http://www.answering-islam.org)

      Most importantly marriages between muslim and non-muslim will be most affected. In islamic law since a woman needs to go through a court to divorce, the courts almost always gives full custody of the children to the man once they have reached puberty even if he has abused her.
      While muslim women may be happy to be judged incompetent and sub-standard to a man, non-muslim women married to muslim men will not be able to go through civil court as by sharia law she would have to go through a muslim court.
      Being a non-muslim will mean she has no rights to testify whatsoever and the fact that she is non-muslim will most likely mean any ruling would be against her.

      I think its important to be objective here most of all and realise that soon Chinese people would want special Chinese laws, Hindus and Buddhists will want to apply some form of Hindu law (maybe eating meat in front of them is insensitive and should be forbidden).

      If you give one, you give all.

    • fml says:

      11:37am | 18/05/11

      Toooo long,

      Simlple retort: You would generally find they have differing beliefs because they are two different people with varying degrees of devotion.

      “The general argument is that they can’t do halves as Muslims.”
      And
      “So the full sharia law would not be implemented.
      But yet their argument is they can’t do things in halves. Do you see the irony?”
      Yes, because only non-muslims argue this, sane people understand there are varying degrees of practicing faith.

    • Markus says:

      01:32pm | 18/05/11

      Unfortunately Islam extremists are not sane people. And if we follow the pattern of events in every other country in the world (apparently it could never happen here), you will see that these are the Muslims whose beliefs eventually win out, at the expense of everyone else’s beliefs. Including the moderate Muslims.

    • Septimus says:

      01:42pm | 18/05/11

      @markus

      Is that like the Klu Klux Klan?  You know, how ‘their’ beliefs won out over the rest of American society?

      Is that like the Skinheads?  You know, how ‘their’ beliefs won out over the rest of UK society?

    • Missy says:

      01:44pm | 18/05/11

      @ fml,
      sorry, went out on a limb to explain too much.

      “You would generally find they have differing beliefs because they are two different people with varying degrees of devotion.”

      Yes, but the spectrum they are in you’ll find are in the extremes. Too fundamental/radical with an overly aggressive/hostile tone or just want to plow through life and not get involved in it actively.
      Because they do not have an official separation of church and state nor support it so demographics would be the sole dictator of whether we will face ‘islamatisation’ against our willl.

      “Yes, because only non-muslims argue this, sane people understand there are varying degrees of practicing faith. “

      No, not sane people.
      Complacency causes this. You can find a reason for everything which has the potential to be negative.
      “Because Jews were prosecuted so they are aggressive in Israel,”, “Because Christians are mostly peace loving.”, etc.
      Confront a potential problem not pretend it doesn’t exist nor address the potential problem.

    • Liberator says:

      02:17pm | 18/05/11

      Missy,
      Of course a muslim woman can practise their religion properly - by not, as you say, going into pubs and drink etc, if that’s what their belief says.
      Neither can they prosecuted under Aussie law for doing so.
      Neither SHOULD they prosecuted under ANY law for doing so in Australia, unless one comes in that applies to everyone - equally.

    • fml says:

      02:31pm | 18/05/11

      Missy,

      “just want to plow through life and not get involved in it actively.”

      So christians who dont follow the bible to the letter are not real christians? there is no such thing as a non-practicing christian?

      “Complacency causes this.” Proves my point its only people on an anti-religious crusade say that there are no moderates, this is not sane thought.

      Your saying 100% of muslims are extremists because you discount the majority moderate non-extremists as “complacent” and not real muslims because you dont feel they are real muslims if they dont follow your interpretation of their religious text.

      ” pretend it doesn’t exist nor address the potential problem.” no one is pretending problems doent exist, although you are creating an absolute opinion of people based on a distinction you created in your head.

      Markus,

      “Unfortunately Islam extremists are not sane people.” Never said they were, i said sane people realise there is a distinction between moderates and extremists.

      “you will see that these are the Muslims whose beliefs eventually win out,” I beg to differ, there are riots in the majority of middle eastern nations right now because people want change from tyranny. The iranian people are fighting for more personal freedoms.
      Also, postulating about an event which has not occured, and is highly unlikely in occuring, and will be fought against by 22 million people and an effective legal system as an inevitability, then using said postulation to call all muslims terrorists is not sane thought either.

    • Missy says:

      11:07am | 19/05/11

      @ Liberator,

      Hi,
      Yes, of course a muslim woman can ‘practise’ her faith if she so likes.

      You’re taking what I’m saying at face value by presenting shallow facts like ‘going to pubs’ which I do not even go to anyway and I’m not even muslim.
      By the way, going to pubs isn’t against islam, alcohol is the reason why many don’t go in case they get tempted to drink and for the very religious ones the mixing of the sexes - back then they didn’t even have pubs so I fail to see your point.

      I’m speaking about sharia being used to contravene or when it contradicts civil law. An example of complications, a sharia court here saying beating a woman, which is permissible in islam, is permissible and rules that the husband should practise more ‘patience’ when dealing with his wife.

      Should the court have a duty to report this to the police? If the sharia has ruled this permission, does the woman then report this to the police as a crime?
      I’m not talking about the emotive ‘we shouldn’t beat men and women’ thing but objectively speaking.

      Another example, if a non muslim marries a muslim and their children are NOT muslim by choice (as we are in a democratic nation) and perhaps, atheist. As there is a muslim in this marriage, they go through sharia.
      The court dictates that the children are indeed, muslim, by virtue of the muslim and custody is given to the muslim by virtue of being muslim.

      When does civil law step in regarding this? Sharia rules one thing, civil rules another?

      How do you expect a muslim, who subscibes to sharia which already has a ruling, to follow civil if he is obligated (some would say it is a must.) to follow sharia as the correct ruling?

      Do you get where I am coming from?

      @ fml,

      Nowhere did I state that muslims are all 100% extremists.

      Plus, it is not ‘my’ intepretation.

      I am talking about the average sunni muslim and their 4 schools of thought - everything I have written here was in no way my ‘intepretation’ but actual rulings, statements and rulings.

      You can pick and choose and comment on one sentence without looking at the entire context if you like.
      When I speak of ‘complacency’, it is the average muslim who doesn’t speak out against their own brethren when it is clear they are wrong.

      Why? Because they fear it would make them look like sympathisers of the ‘west’ or make them ‘less muslim’ for speaking out against a fellow ‘brother’ and ‘sister’.

      When I said ‘plow through life’ I meant they are your average ‘not practise to the letter’ religious folk who do not want to get involved with the overall scene of things (political and religious) like most other peope with religions - regardless of their religion.

      I didn’t create an absolute opinion on anyone.

      When I mentioned islamic rulings they are actual LAW rulings from their own Qu’ran and Hadiths and are FACT.
      I can quote from them if you like but its not the point.

      Its all fine and dandy when we’re picking and choosing the tame ones like inheritance but its not unreasonable to assume they will want full sharia or as much as possible to be practised if allowed to do the basics, isn’t it?
      What happens then when it starts to edge across the line towards the non muslims?

      You can attempt to defeat my credibility by simply saying its my intepretation or its in my head but what happens to your line of argument then when I pull out actual rulings straight from the horse’s mouth?

    • Traxster says:

      11:09am | 18/05/11

      Whatever else it is
      it is still ‘one foot in the door’
      ‘the first step’...............
      As the wife of one of those American presidents was wont to say…
      ‘JUST SAY NO’ !!!

    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      01:47pm | 18/05/11

      I’d watch this if I were you ... in fact, I think everyone should. This bloke is a British MP. There were enough muslims in his constituency to get him elected. It will happen here. 
       
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfeovfSGY3A

    • Traxster says:

      11:12am | 18/05/11

      I’ve said it before ( somewhere )
      and I’ll say it again…..............
      it’s not the ‘ism’ you have to beware of,
      it’s the ‘ists’ ...........they are the worry…...........

    • simon says:

      11:28am | 18/05/11

      what like democratists? humanists? globalists? liberalists? all the other “ists” that you probably actually approve of?

    • greg says:

      12:12pm | 18/05/11

      unionists

    • Richy says:

      11:22am | 18/05/11

      Greg, the Aborigines were here first, the Muslims weren’t.

    • Nick42 says:

      03:59pm | 18/05/11

      Which Aborigines, the Tasmanian ones driven out of the Mainland by the following waves of Aborigines or the descendents of the of the final wave that the Dutch and the Poms encountered who obviously were not the original inhabitants of this land

    • Ryder says:

      12:23pm | 18/05/11

      Thanks for the link.

      It seems that they misunderstand the meaning of multiculturalism.  They seem to be indicating that should be able to do whatever they like as long as it is part of their culture and beliefs, including living under their own system of law.

      I also note the comment that inferred that they would if possible have their own banking and financial system if allowed.

    • iansand says:

      01:14pm | 18/05/11

      Why can’t “they” have their own banking and financial system?  First, we get rid of the credit unions…

    • Markus says:

      03:50pm | 18/05/11

      Actually, given that Islam does not believe in interest, I’d love for more Islamic financial institutions.
      Just a shame that because they discriminate on religious belief, they won’t be legal in this country. Yet…

    • Watcher says:

      11:26am | 18/05/11

      To My mind it’s a simple answer, Muslims either abide by our laws and rules or go back to whence they came. They knew when they came to this country that we are a Christian country, they also knew that we had our own laws. Don’t try to change us..either fit in or go back to your home land. None of us asked them to come here, they chose that path themselves

    • Simon says:

      12:30pm | 18/05/11

      Actually australia is not a christian country.

      Australia is a secular “liberal” democracy. 

      It might have some christians in it - even a lot of christians - but it also has millions of people of other faiths or of no faith and a constitution which currently guarantees freedom of religion to all and the ability for voters of any race or religion etc to effect change in the law through democratic processes.

      You should really learn to deal with this reality or YOU should move to a “christian country”.

      I’d suggest the Vatican city - as its probably the only “christian” country in the world.

    • Watcher says:

      01:56pm | 19/05/11

      Well um actually No I won’t be moving to the Vatican which is full of pedophiles or anywhere else. I am an Atheist!! But this country has Christian Values or did have when my family arrived in the early 1800’s. Muslims either abide by our rules or as far I am concerned they can hit the highway. Why should there be different rules for some and not for others? We are one country and all should abide by the same rules and laws. They are no more special than any of the rest of us.

    • Harquebus says:

      11:27am | 18/05/11

      Religion should never be part of Australian law. Religion is evil. It preys on the weak and gullible. I ridicule it and humiliate its practitioners at every opportunity.
      Mohomed heard voices in his head and Jesus thought he was the son of something that doesn’t exist. Today, we would lock them up or give them antipsychotics.

    • Ali says:

      01:05pm | 18/05/11

      Im am fairly new to Australia so wanted to understand a lot more about the history and the australian law.

      From my understanding of our legal system is based around English Common Law. Which in turn was based around the Magna Carta- in which 80% of the petitioners where bishops. I cut and paste some of the first and last points

      1. First, that we have granted to God, and by this present charter have confirmed for us and our heirs in perpetuity, that the we shall be free, and shall have its rights undiminished, and its liberties unimpaired…....

      63. ........... we shall be free, and that the subjects of our realm shall have and hold all the aforesaid liberties, rights and concessions, duly and in peace, freely and quietly, fully and entirely, for themselves and their heirs from us and our heirs, in all matters and in all places, forever, as has been said

      of course it was all about not paying taxes. But the very spine that holds our laws together is the magna carta, based around judeo christian traditions laws and texts ( the chrisitan bible).

      Islam does not fit into the magna carta as australian society is based around the bible.

      I find it quite humurous that people claim religion should never be part of australian law because religion ( christian ) is a the very centre. You still say the Lord Prayer before opening paliament. the last staza of the national anthem.

      With Christ our head and cornerstone,
      We’ll build our Nation’s might,
      Whose way and truth and light alone,
      Can guide our path aright.
      Our lives, a sacrifice of love,
      Reflect our Master’s care
      With faces turned to heaven above,
      Advance Australia fair.
      In joyful strains then let us sing,
      Advance Australia fair.

      I think australia is a great place open, welcoming, free probably one of the last places on earth where you actions and hard work are noted before you skin colour.  you want to run from christian heritage when its that very hertiage that has allowed me to bring my family here in peace.

      I am eternally thankful that christianity is part of australia and part of australian law as the liberties we enjoy today come from the openess allowed by the law.

    • Colmac says:

      03:22pm | 18/05/11

      Well said Ali,
      I am hoping that the ignorant Simon above read it.
      Welcome to our country, enjoy our freedoms.
      Our ancestors have paid dearly for them.

    • Bloggs says:

      04:30pm | 18/05/11

      Nice words Ali, but with an Islamic name I am curious to your motives.  I am a skeptic and do not believe good in everything I see, no matter how much I want to. The Magna Carta does not rule Australia, the Australian constitution and law does that for us, whatever the base.  It is correct that Christianity is part of that base and Scripture (Christian teching) was part of Government schools until not too long ago although many claim it has no place.

      I’d rather see some religious teaching in schools, sufficient for all to understand the basics of each major religion, so that better quality discussion can be had.  But this should only include the religions that represent the majority of the population and Islam does not fall into that with a mere 1.7% of the population involved. 

      1.7%...... Imagine that - this massive amount of debate wrapped up around a mere fraction of the popoulation of Australia - 1.7% of the population brings on this debate listed here and that 1.7% of the population making the most enormous and unreasonable demands for the tiny size of them.

      That is sufficient reason alone to tell them to bugger off and get realistic.

      The insidious nature of their demands, a thin edge of the wedge that would end with full Sharia applied and no rights for their women… that alone is enough for me to say NO!

    • Liberator says:

      11:37am | 18/05/11

      You live in Australia, you live under Australain law - first and foremost. Anything less - is RACIST.

    • Nick42 says:

      04:03pm | 18/05/11

      No you are a bigot as Australians are not a race. If you are going to use the Australian/English language at least use it properly otherwise I will be forced to conclude that your are an idiot and anything else you say is irrelevant.

    • PG says:

      11:38am | 18/05/11

      They agreed to obey Australia’s laws when they came here, and now they want to change them? Sharia has no place in this country. If you aren’t prepared to observe our laws, you are welcome to leave and go back to the backwards country you came from.

      If you thought the Cronulla riots were bad, go ahead and bring in even a moderate form of Sharia and the Cronulla riots will end up looking like a kids birthday party. Our serviceman and women who put their lives at risk in Iraq and Afghanistan so that ALL Australians, regardless of gender, can enjoy freedom would be disgusted.

    • Simon says:

      12:37pm | 18/05/11

      Changing the law is the right of the people.

      Any group of citizens of any race or nationality can form groups, parties or voting blocks and vote in people who represent them and change the laws of the land. 

      Or they can form lobby groups and try and encourage political parties to see their point of view.

      This is democracy.

      As for australians putting their lives at risk in Iraq and Afghanistan so Australians can have freedom - this is surely a joke.  Australian lives are at risk in those countries for the purposes of supporting the USA and the alliance between our countries. 

      There was never any danger of australia losing freedoms by not participating in the occupations and bombings of these countries.  Infact - by participating in such wars they’ve only attracted the anger and retalation of illiterate fanatics.  Bali bombings happened AFTER australia participated in the occupation of Afghanistan, not before.

      These wars and AUS participation in them have made australia LESS safe and created terrorism against our nation.

    • Mark says:

      11:41am | 18/05/11

      The is no such thing as Universal Human Rights. Rules are invented by people to control people, some bright spark got the great idea to call their idea’s for rules Human Rights, or Natural Justice. Or for that matter divinely inspired Sharia Law.

      Just rules designed to enforce a certain type of behaviour. None of them have any greater claim for validly then they do a job that is generally well regarded well.

      These rules only apply to those societies that accept them, therefore they cannot be Universal. Unless of couse you rule or wish to rule everybody & force them to accept your viewpoint.

      Sharia law does some things very well but others not so well. It so happens that most people in Australia prefer the rules we already have, most likley solely becouse we are used to them. Not doubt many Muslims are used to Sharia rules & like them for the same reason.

      Saying that our rules are better then their rules is not racism, a much misused word, but it is Culturalism. The belief that our Culture & the rules we follow are better then other peoples. Not having this belief means that the person has little respect for themselves and their culture.

      The Constitution of Australia gives the power for marriage laws to the Commonwealth becouse the writers believed that differing marriage laws would over time result in differing cultures fighting over one land. I happen to think they were correct.

      I reject Sharia law for Muslims in Australia not becouse it breachs so called Universal Human Rights, but becouse one people in one nation need to be subject to one set of laws. To do otherwise is to attack the concept of Australia.

    • simon says:

      12:27pm | 18/05/11

      For the most part - i agree.

      But I also agree that if muslims wish to submit their requests or ideas about legal pluralism - they are free to do so.

      They’re also free to form voting blocks, political parties and change the laws according to their wishes, should they gather the numbers to be able to effect change to legislation or the constitution.

      To suggest otherwise is just more whiteman colonialism - of the kind we’re seeing in the recent times.  Where muslims ideas, cultures, laws etc must be changed - to the point of military occupation and bombing nations into liberal democracy.

    • Jon says:

      02:29pm | 18/05/11

      Mark@ Your moral relativism cannot overcome the boundaries of logic, nor can it override the sense of morality inherent to mankind. We instinctively know that some things are wrong,

      Relativism in general breaks down when examined from a purely logical perspective. The basic premise is that “truth is relative.” If every truth statement is valid, then the statement “some truths are absolute” must be valid. The statement “there are no absolute truths” is accurate, according to relativism—but it is an absolute truth itself. These contradict the very concept of relativism, meaning that absolute relativism is self-contradictory and impossible.

    • Lisa H. says:

      03:02pm | 18/05/11

      Well, I like whiteman colonialism - as it’s practiced in this country, which is the only one I vote in and hence have any say over.

      I can’t control history, but I do enjoy the JOURNEY on which we have come - it gave me free education, clean water and sanitisation, it gives me the vote, in spite of being a woman, and it provides me with a sense of freedom and safety sufficient for me to hold a job, earn my own money, and move about at most times of the day.

      I also enjoy the confidence that comes from knowing my culture upholds my freedom to change or explore religion.

      I don’t have to defer to men simply because they are men, I don’t have to ‘shuffle up’ should my husband desire another marriage partner, nor need I rely on them for financial support. I have the ability to drive, I can get a passport and I have a whole myriad of opportunities.

      If this is whiteman colonialism, i’ll take it! And I think, at the end of the day, you would too.

    • Pom says:

      11:46am | 18/05/11

      Hmmmm. Legal pluralism. What could possibly go wrong?

    • Strongarm says:

      11:47am | 18/05/11

      Muslims are the most hated race of people on this planet, outside their own countries.  99.9% of real Australians don’t want Sharia Law, why are we even discussing this ancient, barbaric culture, we should’nt even be giving them airtime.

    • Aussie Wazza says:

      11:48am | 18/05/11

      My grandma made the best Christmas cake. This wasn’t a fluke, it took her much trial and effort to get it perfect.

      She made the cake/s in August, used only the best Australian dried fruit which she further dried and then soaked, some in brandy and some in rum until the fruit was again plump. She used a blend of other specially selected ingredients, stood the blend for a period before cooking and when finished wrapped the cake/s in glassine paper then brown paper and placed it in the pantry until Christmas.

      Everyone that tasted it agreed it was the best ever.

      Her recipe was no secret and she was happy to share it with anyone, and many took up the offer. But it was never the same; People took shortcuts, used inferior ingredients or made changes, used aluminium foil and made them too late to properly mature.

      My grandpas, my dad and uncles worked hard and fought to build the standards, liberties and conditions we enjoy today. These are the envy of many countries. There may be, but I don’t know of any other countries as comfortable to live in as Australia.

      People from other nations flock here to enjoy our lifestyle, to cast off the oppression their native countries inflict on them.

      THEN THEY WANY TO CHANGE US TO THEIR WAYS. The ways that are causing the very misery they have fled.

      CRAZY!

    • iansand says:

      02:07pm | 18/05/11

      That’s right.  Under Sharia law there will be no Christmas, and no Christmas cake.  Fight for our right to eat Christmas cake!!!!

    • Andrew says:

      11:48am | 18/05/11

      Can we also please allow christian law, hindu law, communist law, a law for fat people to follow, a law for people with size 12 shoes to follow. I would also like to make my own law up if possible, I think I deserve it if these people are allowed to make up their own law, it’s only fair right?

    • Saskia says:

      12:01pm | 18/05/11

      To the people that think ‘Sharia Law will never happen here”, be warned: It is in force in Canada and the UK already.

    • simon says:

      12:24pm | 18/05/11

      “in force”  implies that it is ENforced by the state.

      This is another sensationalist lie.

      You are conflating the concept of voluntary arbitration of domestic and civil matters - with law being enforced.  THey’re two separate issues.

      In most developed countries common law allows two disputing parties to voluntarily have a matter arbitrated upon by an agreed third party. 

      Note words suchas “voluntarily” and “agreed third party”.

    • Karen Lynch says:

      12:51pm | 18/05/11

      To quote from Nonie Darwish’s book, “Cruel and Usual Punishment” she says…“what is most troublesome is not the terrorists attacking from the outside, terrible as that is. It is the attack on democracy from within.  the radicals and Sharia enforcers are now here in the west and often operate under the radar of western law and their open systems of government. Demands for Sharia have arrived on the shores of Europe and America (and now Australia-writers words) by Muslim minorities who demand it as part of their religious rights.”
      Allow one law and the floodgates will open.
      Western countries are perhaps underestimating a threat that will push their futures to a point of no return. Some Sharia laws have already crept into England and Canada.
      And I ask, If muslims wish to live by Sharia laws, why are they not living in countries that reflect those laws rather that trying to infiltrate them into Australia’s?

    • LC says:

      01:44pm | 18/05/11

      I would like to see sharia law confined to the history books as much as the next man.

      But that claim is ABSOLUTE BULLSHIT.

    • Markster says:

      12:08pm | 18/05/11

      Why do we even entertain the musings of 1% of the population?????

    • simon says:

      01:19pm | 18/05/11

      Because one day - they might be 50% of the population and it might be their democractic right to change the law.

      Surely you support this - otherwise you might prefer autocratism, despotism, facism, or some other kind of political ideology.

    • Bolz says:

      01:52pm | 18/05/11

      Exactly!

      More so, if it’s this bad now, what’s it going to be like when they’re 10% population?

      I’m so sick and tired of hearing about Islam and Muslims. It seems to never stop! Every single day there is another story on the topic. How do you escape it?

      Hmmmm…then again, I guess you’re not meant to!

    • Lisa H. says:

      07:17pm | 18/05/11

      Yeah, for a minority group they sure are loud… and pushy.
      But I suspect it’s not their fault… the media has a lot to answer for in this whole beat-up.

      The Muslim lobby group is the go-to on any slow news day… it’s not fair on the ordinary people Muslim and non-Muslim that just want to get on, adding a sense of pressure that would not exist without the constant media.

      My grandmother’s neighbours are Iranian Coptic Christians, surely they are put in a difficult position appearing Muslim and yet having suffered so badly at the hands of Muslim people in their previous lives.

      My Grandmother’s quite afraid of them simply because they appear so different.. In fact they are very nice. The constant media pressure hasn’t helped them any.

    • Dash says:

      12:12pm | 18/05/11

      Don’t like our laws? Don’t come to our country. Simple.

    • Budz says:

      12:16pm | 18/05/11

      I’m hearing all this stuff about migrants integrating. Has anyone suggested a law that doesn’t allow new migrants to move into capital cities for say 3-5 years? I think that would be a great way to take pressure off the capital cities along with allowing them to integrate. Thoughts?

      I know it would never be implemented, but I think it would be great, especially for migrants in the long run.

    • Pete #205 says:

      01:17pm | 18/05/11

      So, how does telling people that you can’t live where most other people live going to help them integrate?  I agree with taking pressure of capital cities, but you can’t tell people where to live. Encourage and convince by way of providing job opportunities elsewhere yes, force, no.

    • fml says:

      02:45pm | 18/05/11

      heheh,

      How do you think country folk are going to react to that?

      Some punters from the country, please?

    • TChong says:

      12:22pm | 18/05/11

      Lets see- the christians have many different sects, and thats all well and good, and we most certainly dont judge all christians based on the IRA, UDF,  Branch Davidians (Waco Texas), or the murderous “Children of God “
      African ( christian ) separatists, or the “christians” who murder employees of family planning clinics.
      Many Jewish people would be aghast to think the crazy hate filled settlers represent them, so we dont.
      Yet..,
      With islam, the actions of the radicals is seen, for some reason to represent all muslims.- while most muslims also reject the extremists.
      Why the double standards ?

    • TheRealDave says:

      02:06pm | 18/05/11

      Because we’ve been force-fed a load of sensationilst crap by the media and the Liberal Fear Machine(tm).

      You lot do know what would happen if lets say a Muslim woman wanted to divorce her Muslim husband, and for whatever reason she was unhappy with the decision by a Sharia ‘court’, and if she took it to the Australian Legal system can you care to guess which result is the ONLY binding result??

      Here’s a clue, its not the Islamic one.

      A Sharia Courts decsion is only binding if BOTH parties agree to it. Otherwise its subject tot he EXACT SAME Australian Laws that you, I and every other person in this country is accountable to.

      I don’t think I make it any more clearer than that.

    • fox says:

      08:18am | 20/05/11

      If ‘most muslims also reject the extremists’ why is there silence from the moderates whenever the extremists do or say some stupid stuff? Where are their rallies against extremism?

      Also, Muslim women are pressured into accepting Sharia law by their husbands, brothers, uncles etc.. even if they don’t want to, they more or less have to or will be ostracised or honor killed.

    • Jolanda says:

      12:27pm | 18/05/11

      I don’t understand why they need Sharia Law to be a recognised Law in Australian Law.  If they want to privately have their own processes and rules in relation to divorce/marriage etc that is administered by Imams and accepted by their religion and culture then that is their right to do so, so long as they understand that they are required by Law to follow Australian Law.

      I am sorry but I worry about where this is all going.  First we are often forced to eat meat that is blessed in a way that many people do not agree with and we are not given a choice except if you don’t like it don’t eat it and now Laws are wanted to be introduced that are not Australian Laws.

      When you consider that in a democracy majority rules and those of certain backgrounds are having children at an extraordinary higher rate than others (and being paid for it by Governments) you have to ask youself whether this is a wise move.

      Education – Keeping them Honest
      http://jolandachallita.typepad.com/

    • simon says:

      12:45pm | 18/05/11

      lol - who forces you to eat halal meat??Seriously. What sensationalist rubbish.

      Are you suggesting that a muslim is holding you down and forcing halal food into your mouth? 

      If I dont like woolworths green produce (because its half rotten) I dont claim i’m being forced to eat rotten food because the nearest supermarkets are woolworths lol Most suburbs have a couple of butchers.  If you dont like that the nearest one is Halal - go to a different one.

      It is the right of anyone to have kids and have how many they want.  Otherwise you support forced sterilisation and eugenics.  Or removing the children of people of other races or religions and forced reindoctrination (stolen generation?). 

      It is the democratic right of muslims in Australia to have as many kids as they want and for those kids to vote how they want and for their representatives to legislate how they want.  Thats how democracy works. If you dont like it - try moving to a facist state.

    • Pete #205 says:

      01:13pm | 18/05/11

      Yeah Jolanda, you tell ‘em! What’s with all that Kosher meat?!  I’d much rather a western style misfired captive bolt stunner technique.

    • Jolanda says:

      01:40pm | 18/05/11

      Simon when food outlets in Australia who have gone totally halal, many of them fast food outlets, make ALL their meat halal you are forced to eat it or make the decision not to eat there.  We are not given a choice as to whether we want to eat halal or non halal regardless of whether those who are not Muslim feel as strongly against eating halal meat as those who are Muslim feel like eating non halal meat.

      That’s right the good old RIGHTS AND ENTITLEMENT mentality.  Yes we have a right to have as many children as we like but is it smart and is it wise? – I say no!

      Australia has stupid rules in relation to the amount of children that our Government will fund. If it was up to me there would be a limit of 2, if you want more than that and cannot afford it then work it out so that you can, or don’t have more children, and if you still decide to bring more children into the world don’t expect the taxpayers to fund you and understand you will lose them if you cannot adequately provide for them.

    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      03:12pm | 18/05/11

      Jolanda
       
      could not agree more. Why should I be basically forced to eat meat that has been subjected to some arcane, foreign religious ritual? 
       
      How about they can slaughter the meat their way if it is then sprinkled with holy water by the local parish priest? 

      They’d scream like stuck pigs. Whoops, are we allowed to say ‘‘pig’’ these days?

    • Pete #205 says:

      04:55pm | 18/05/11

      OK, so I’ll be a little more direct.  Tony and Jolanda.  Please explain to us how you feel about Kosher meat as I’m sure you realise, the ritual for the slaughter for animals is very similar to that for Halal.  And, a second point, how arcane a ritual is a bolt to the head, because that is how the meat you eat now is dealt with.

    • Jolanda says:

      05:55pm | 18/05/11

      Certainly I think that if we are to be fair to all and treat everybody’s beliefs with equal respect then we should provide choice.  For instance if you go into KFC you should have to specify whether you want Halal, or Kosher or whatever.
      If it means that much to them then they must understand that it might also mean that much to others.

    • Fear and Loathing in Sydney says:

      12:37pm | 18/05/11

      There’s plenty of other genuine refugees from plenty of other cultures / religions / cults / lifestyles that would love to come to Australia and integrate into our society willingly. It’s fairly obvious most Australians do not want Sharia Law implemented, or in fact, Muslims, in this country.
      The government must follow the will of the people. That means Muslims should not be allowed in.

    • Bring it on says:

      12:45pm | 18/05/11

      I’m an atheist, but I believe Sharia Law is a good thing. It will mean that men will be treated like human beings in family court, rather than second class citizens with no rights.

    • simon says:

      01:11pm | 18/05/11

      unfortunately you’ll you be religiously obligated to pay for the ENTIRETY of your wife and children’s food, clothes, housing.  No dual income family for you! Her money is all hers.  Sure you want that?
      You will not be able to have custody over pre-pubescent children and you’ll have to have custody over teenage children.  Sure you want that?

    • John says:

      12:50pm | 18/05/11

      The Marxists are giving Muslims a foot hold in white christianity society. This is done to depower the white Christians, so that the Marxists can run unmolested controlling the governments and the media. It’s called divide and conqueror. Its all class warfare, they want to create a one class system in the west, where whites, minority’s, muslims, blacks etc are all on the same level. This works in the marxist interest because this one class will not be able to work cohesively because of their cultural, religions, etc differences. The only supreme class will be the Marxists, that will then enslave the one class into their will. This happened in Bolshevik Communist revolution were it lead to 40 million dead Russians, where the one class were treated as animals, cattle and herded and slaughtered as sheep. a White Christian cohesive society is dangerous to the Communists, this is why the funded and push multiculturalism in white country’s. They want to destroy the White Christian civilization. So if country has sharia law and it’s western, it means it’s run by Marxists. Heavily Marxist controlled country’s are the UK, US, CANADA as you stated. France is getting there, Germany is also getting closer.

    • marley says:

      01:01pm | 18/05/11

      Ohmigod - Canada is a Marxist country?  Someone should tell Stephen Harper, one of the most conservative PMs in Canada’s history.  Err, John, have you ever actually been to any of the countries you denote as Marxist?  More to the point, have you ever been to a real Marxist country (before they all disappeared, that is)?  If you had, you wouldn’t be making such ludicrous statements.

    • Tchom says:

      01:05pm | 18/05/11

      This is a joke, right?

    • John says:

      01:36pm | 18/05/11

      I suggest you guys read up on the Frankfurt School, Cultural Marxism. Multiculturalism is weapon used to pacify white leaders, white nations to the communist future cause. Dumbing down of society etc. Have a look at the UK rampant Multiculturalism in London, The Far-Left(Communists) wrote what children should be taught at school. Look at France, again we see Communists all over Paris then we see millions of immigrants. Communism and Multiculturalism are one. This idea that everyone is equal, is the idea of create one single class society(communism)  but of course the leadership of these nations secretly the upper class. This is Bolshevism 2.0, trying to take over again.

    • fml says:

      03:08pm | 18/05/11

      John,

      I wasnt aware christianity had a caste system?

    • Groompy Tom says:

      12:51pm | 18/05/11

      Two days ago the AFIC, in response to some demonstration in Melbourne, said Australians we’re ‘wrong and being provocative’ if they believed Muslims in Australia wanted to implement Sharia law. Two days later and we find out it’s not all Australian Muslims, just their peak body and leaders.
      Two faced much?

      Anyway, why are we even bothering to listen to people who believe in great big Sky Pixies? Apart from that, Halal is outright cruelty and I refuse to have any of my taxes fund all this religiously inspired cockwaffle, just as I refuse to eat anything that some madman has chanted over as he’s cut it’s throat.

      Alllallallallallalallalllallallalalalala!

      Oh do be quite you crazy person! Nurse, doctor take this one to the padded cell will you please.

      Remember, those who read and study Islamic texts can be bunched into only two groups of people; Muslims and ‘Islamophobes’...

      ...All praise be to Allen that I fall into the latter category.

    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      01:34pm | 18/05/11

      Sorry, dude, your meat (if you buy from Woollies or Coles) has already had some foreign shaman dancing around and chanting over it before he ritually cuts the throat. 
       
      They don’t advertise it, but will admit it if you ask. I don’t shop there any more for meat.

    • Anne_N says:

      02:48pm | 18/05/11

      I’m not particularly worried about being nice to the source of the food I’m going to eat, and chanting over it is neither here nor there if you don’t believe in anyone’s sky fairies.

      But I do buy my steaks from our local halal butcher.  The price is good, the shop is incredibly clean, and the meat doesn’t leave a puddle of blood in the bottom of the plastic bag.

      Have to go somewhere else for my pork chops though.  grin

    • Groompy Tom says:

      03:57pm | 18/05/11

      @Tony Well aware of that mate. As are all NZ lamb exports so unfortunately that’s off limits for me too. Same for a lot of chicken and beef as well as most pre-sliced cheeses. But Beer and Cigarettes are Haram so I’ll survive.

      Yes, all you Muslim smokers out there. Cigarettes are Haram so stop it. If you don’t then not only will you die of lung cancer here in this world, but also over and over again during the tortures of the grave in the next world… Or something like that.

      @Anne_N Ask your Halal butcher if he knows where I can find a good pork kebab. I’ve looked high and low but they just look at me funny and say ‘chicken or lamb only’. What’s with that?

    • Darragh Scully says:

      01:09pm | 18/05/11

      This is a rather random addressing of the Subject.
      Anyone with a clue about Law in Australia will know that as a Democratic Legal Process anyone can make a claim for special circumstances. I do however doubt that in any conflict with our Constitution and any Legal Statues that Sharia Law will not be allowed. And as the Tory story started out there are already similartites. Then she briefly touches on Etics and Emics.

      One good example that should be noted is when you can Juxtapose the high unemployment rate in Muslim Enclaves in Australia with Polygamy. You think single mothers are a burdon just wait till they pass polygamy laws. In three generations you will have a man with 3 wives, who has 36 children, most of whom are male, whom can go on to have 270 children and it can be done on welfare. That is, systems and infrastructure and company law and western legal principles of taxation etc that is part of our Modern World including working on any day of the week at any hours or not, all have could lead to a backward subculture that ends up destroying the system that supports it. Its not as if we dont already have enough drains on society as it is. Yet like all things illegal it wont supprise me if they end up like the Dead Bead Dad societie of polygyamous psychopaths with children to as many wives as they possibly can find. If its not allready that way with secret polygamy and a long term plan to out breed everyday australians. Thats right men, Muslims will not only forbid you to have anything to do with their women but they will if they can be after your women to. pfffft. Im not sure any of what I said is true but the simple point is that Polygamy is just to much of a burdon on the Tax system and if you make it legal for those who can afford it then you have to do the same for those who can not. So in reality full Sharia Law in Australia is just not likely. And after a read on the Wik about Sharia I think I could find a few other reasons.

      And dont even get me bloody started on whose bloody version of Sharia Law we would adopt, as it happens any where there are Muslims Living they cant even decide that.

      PLEASE. (stop poluting the airwaves)

      ps: 3 Wives sounds good to me.

    • TheRealDave says:

      02:43pm | 18/05/11

      3 women nagging the crap out of me to take the garbage out, fix the shelf in the bathroom and mow the lawn whilst having them roll their eyes at me and sigh or outright tell me to piss off if I suggest a bit of nooky when the kids are out??

      Thats not a dream - thats bloody nightmare!

    • Darragh Scully says:

      03:48pm | 19/05/11

      @theRealDave.

      I have seen a program about said problem with a Goat Herder and his many wives. They get to have him on alternate nights and the only problem he had was how it really wore him down having to tend to 3 women. They lived very simple lives. In our modern world however with the cost of haircuts and blow waves and dyes etc in the average womans lifetime a man will spend the equivilent of the cost of a moderatly priced 2 bed unit. That doesnt include clothing and the cost of the children such as school needs etc. If you take Sharia into the modern world I think it is doomed to failure.

      On the other hand we have such big wide open spaces. I believe in some of the deserts there is an emerging problem with Camals and goats. If these people are looking for the simple life in the desert then by all means you could kill two birds with one stone. This would help the growing number of second generation muslim migrants get back in touch with their humble beginnings and cultural values as well as rid society of the burdon of more mouths to feed, which at the end of the day seems to be a pretty problematic bottom line. This may in fact be the basis of a new work for the dole program/resettlement program. We could call it the Camal Herding/Goat herding government initiative.

      Personally I am not sure the savy high tech druggie mussy immigrants of today are going to go for that. They are more interested in Science roles whereby they can syphen off materials for Jihad or make plans for future Alkayda attacks on bridges, nuclear reactors and millitary bases.

      The key MO, what we should all be looking out for is, at the finance level. They basically take out loans and sypehn off the cash, they finance vehicles that mysteriously go missing all on the legitimate auspice of parents or other community members. Trust me there is alot of missing cash out there associated with the long list of suspects. In fact it is used to track them down or in the case of successfull alerts to not track them down which leads to them being hunted down. Go figure, its what I do.

      Erin Go Bragh.

    • Groompy Tom says:

      01:10pm | 18/05/11

      I would put it to the numptys at the AFIC that any ‘enclaves’ that the followers of that spooky cult are living in are entirely self imposed.

      Anyway, my idea for a better Australia, indeed a better world, would be to get all the Jews, Christians, Muslims and Hindus down Cronulla beach one afternoon and let them battle it out ‘till the death.
      Oops! nearly forgot the Buddhists. Get them smug buggers down there too.

      Hang on a minute. Have I just summed up this government’s multicultural program?

    • Liberator says:

      02:49pm | 18/05/11

      Actually, I would like to get all the ultra right wing and ultra left wing nutters down the beach and let THEM battle it out to the death - and LEAVE THE REST OF US (Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, non-religious, atheist)  IN PEACE!!!

    • Groompy Tom says:

      03:44pm | 18/05/11

      @Liberator

      Are you seriously implying that no Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Agnostics or Atheists fall into your convenient brackets of ‘ultra right wing’ and ‘ultra left wing’?

      Tell me, on what planet is this a reality. I’ll have to come visit sometime.

      P.S Try and think of the last place you had your humour, you’ve obviously lost it somewhere if you though I was being serious.

    • St Peter says:

      01:11pm | 18/05/11

      The Govt must stop the funding of Islamic schools in Australia.

    • Chewy says:

      01:24pm | 18/05/11

      Catholic and Anglican ones too?

    • Groompy Tom says:

      04:03pm | 18/05/11

      @Chewy

      Yes please. My tax tit is getting sore from these buggers suckling on it.

    • fred says:

      01:14pm | 18/05/11

      Last Citizenship ceremony I attended had all the enthusiastic applicants take a pledge to honour the laws of Australia.
      End of story. Not negotiable. A binding value shared by those born here and those who came across the sea.
      I’m much more concerned about the mistreatment of 8 600 innocent people in detention, many of them of the Muslim faith and the possible and understandable threat to the harmony of our society from some angry disturbed young man who has not forgotten how he and his family were tortured. Let us give this human rights issue priority over non applicable Sharia law in Australia.

    • RyaN says:

      01:22pm | 18/05/11

      That “chasm” only exists because of Muslims hating anyone who is not Muslim and refusing point blank to integrate into our society. This thin end of the wedge is just the next phase in their ultimate goal which is invade and conquer Australia.
      These people have openly declared war on the west, this is how they are waging it.

    • Septimus says:

      01:36pm | 18/05/11

      Is RyaN related to Sad Reality? They both seem to share the same tin foil maker.

    • James1 says:

      01:53pm | 18/05/11

      No, SSR has the ability to be reasonable (when it suits him) and use facts to support arguments.  RyaN relies on bald assertion.

    • Jimmy two times says:

      02:04pm | 18/05/11

      We don’t have a society to integrate into anymore. We’re a secular, tolerant, pluralistic mass that has no core values. Or, our core values are that we have no values. At any rate, it was only a matter of time before someone with values was gonna take the lead. But our leaders will keep talking up abortion and gay marriage and they won’t get that our tolerance is what allows for our own demise.

    • RyaN says:

      03:18pm | 18/05/11

      @Septimus: I am sure that’s the same kind of comment that came from the lefties in Europe right before they were invaded during the second world war.
      Lets hope you or worse your children don’t become a victim of sharia law.
      Since public beheading and stoning are all the rage under Sharia law perhaps its something you sickly desire to watch?

    • RyaN says:

      03:20pm | 18/05/11

      @James1: and James here relies on zero argument just pathetic baseless attacks. Not to worry James, I guess we will have to save you when the time comes because I hardly imagine some lilly livered one like you actually standing up for your country let alone fighting for it.

    • Septimus says:

      03:26pm | 18/05/11

      RyaN,

      Thanks!  You confirmed my suspicions.

    • RyaN says:

      03:36pm | 18/05/11

      @Septimus: yes we look forward to this sort of thing right here in Australia.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGtRVugNjcY and if they are willing to do this to their own family, just imagine what they will do to yours.
      This is perfectly legal under Sharia law.

    • RyaN says:

      03:39pm | 18/05/11

      @Septimus: clearly you have no grasp on reality is so distorted that you think I am the one wearing a tin foil hat, somehow I think that belongs to you. Here is a dose of reality for you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwP1OoH0p7Y

    • James1 says:

      04:59pm | 18/05/11

      I would gladly present some evidence RyaN, but every time I have in the past you have dismissed it or ignored it.  I have since come to the conclusion that you don’t really care about facts and evidence, and prefer instead to think whatever you like regardless.

      If you would like to present some evidence in support of your position, I am more than happy to consider it.

      However, you will need something more than a video of a man beating a woman.  One individual incident says nothing at all about wider trends.

    • RyaN says:

      10:38am | 19/05/11

      @James1: how many “incidents” do you want. I can supply a list of honour killings, followed by a list of women who have been raped then stoned to death all under Sharia law. Lets not even get started on the rest of the savage behavior. You will need some serious download storage however, this list is not something you can post in under a million words.

    • Simon Ingram says:

      01:32pm | 18/05/11

      Tory writing against moral relativism! I never thought I would see the day!

      Praise the Lord.

    • NESLIHAN KUROSAWA says:

      01:36pm | 18/05/11

      Hi Tory,

      It could never happen in Australia, really!!  It is all about a few people wanting to get attention, a publicity stunt and that is all.  It is all about seeing the actual public reacting to it so strongly, as might have been expected all along.  And so far, they have managed to only do that.  There are other European countries like France and Germany with such high number of Muslim populations.  Will they be next in line??

      Does that actually mean the Islamic community will be asking for the same rights in the US and Europe as well.  I personally do not think so!!  Freedom of religion may be, however this is only making headlines because it is stirring emotions & also managing the polarize the nation and the members of the general public.  Nothing more or less!!  Somehow, all kinds of extreme views tend to do that. 

      Lets all leave religion out of it, once and for all.  Best regards to your editors.

    • HappyCynic says:

      01:36pm | 18/05/11

      Funny how an article begging for people to not be hysterical about a proposed change to the law only seems to attract the hysterical, who promptly have hysterics.

      There’s nothing unreasonable about the article, by all means oppose Sharia law in the context of keeping religion and state separate, but the responders make me despair at how much stupidity, prejudice, hyperbole and ignorance is prevalent in this debate.

      There are maybe 5 or 6 sane, thoughtful and logical comments to this article which equates to about 1.8%.  The other 98.2% are just whiny, panicky and hysterical.  How did Australians get to be so fearful and stupid?

      Or is it just the universal truth that rationale, logic and intelligence have no place on the internet?

    • Green Death says:

      01:37pm | 18/05/11

      The current Australian government is in the process of introducing a compulsory tithing to cover the upkeep and worship of the god of global warming.
      Have your doubts? Well what do you think a Judean would have said 2,000 years ago when told that God was not he who Moses brought down from the mountain but a 33 year old wanderer and story teller from Nasareth. 
      Secular democracy is on death row and will be crucified along with its Piscean God by the high priests of global warming soon after Aquarius starts rising with the Easter dawn. 
      If you don’t want religion in schools then start agitating to rid them of the god of the Greens.

    • Andy says:

      01:42pm | 18/05/11

      It is just getting beyond a joke. I could only imagine what would happen to Australians (from any background) travelling to a country such as Dubai and requesting that Australian schools be built and funded solely for Australians, swimming pools, places of entertainment, bars etc, be constructed solely for Australians and also requesting that Australians be able to follow the laws of the Australian Constitution whilst living there? I for one do not agree with such laws. I remember of reading about a case whereby a British couple celebrated their engagement with drinks in Dubai in 2010, only for the female to be raped by a male waiter from the venue. When she reported it, her and her husband were arrested and jailed, due to decency laws associated with the Sharia laws. Not only that, but how about other cases such as couples being jailed for kissing in public, stonings for being unfaitfhul etc. I love travelling overseas, but I do not have any desire to travel to such places, because of fear of their laws. There is no racism at all in my body, I just believe that this is Australia, you came to live here, abide by and respect the rules and accept the way of life.

    • Phil says:

      01:44pm | 18/05/11

      ABSOLUTELY NOT, ABSOLUTELY NO, ABSOLUTELY NEVER.

      And let me clarify: If you wish to observe the terms of Sharia Rulings within your community that’s all well and good - and I stand by your right to do so *to the extent that it does not violate our existing laws*.

      Sharia *law* is a misnomer, it has no legal backing in this country. Sharia in Australia is religious arbitration.

      And it *NEVER* should have.

    • Davi_88 says:

      01:52pm | 18/05/11

      Like most people I am completely against the introduction of sharia, however I don’t see the issue with islamic schools. How is it different from a catholic or christian school?

      Also, excellent article Tory

    • batta says:

      01:54pm | 18/05/11

      Would all Australians of European decent please meet at gate 3 for boarding. The aboriginals did not want you here, Asia has never wanted you here, and you are an annoyance to all of the new arrivals who will inherit your roads and buildings once you are gone.
      Europeans had their past 500 years of dominance, now it is time for you all to disappear into irrelevance . Democracy means majority rules, in a very short time you will not be the majority, so make it easier for everyone and leave this country now.

    • Nick42 says:

      04:23pm | 18/05/11

      Can all of the Aborigines not descended from the first wave, i.e. unless you have tasmanian aborigine blood in you, please find the boats and go back overseas as they would like their land back from you.Isn’t it fun making stupid statements batta

    • Lisa H. says:

      07:06pm | 18/05/11

      I think thre’s a lot of Islander in my Aboriginal family members… they didn’t spring from the inland Australian soil itself, methinks.

    • Sofewbullets says:

      02:00pm | 18/05/11

      Some Frenchies had a good idea a while ago.  It was called the separation of (any) church and state.  This is not an Islamic issue this is a rational thought issue.  The sooner everyone wakes up to themselves and realises it is not one religion but all of them that advocate hypocrisy, social control and restriction of free thought the better off we all will be.

    • p_r says:

      02:05pm | 18/05/11

      Scary scary comments here
      - did anyone actually read what they were asking for?
      As much as I am a firm athiest I believe in the right to religious freedom as long as it is within the law of the land; parallel to it if you will.
      These requests were generally acceptable.
      - To deny these requests purely because they are tenets of Sharia law IS Sectarian (by definition)
      - if we oppose them and ban them due to being contrary to the law of the land then so be it
      - that is what we have these channels for
      We castigate them for being backwards and insular, but lets look in the mirror first.
      We cannot reject ideas just because of where they come from; if we chose to do so in this case then we are hypocrites.
      - do we repeal the rights of Beth Din in Australia - how would that go down?
      - do we stop allowing priests to marry people?
      - do we ban commodore driving knuckle dragging mouth breathers from posting on the internet?
      Then why do we single out Islam for this kind of treatment? Because it’s an easy target that fits nicely with our collective xenophobic ideas and racist Australian media. There are nutters in every clan/group/demographic you choose we can’t judge every group of people by their loony fringe (even Collingwood supporters)

    • Lisa H. says:

      02:48pm | 18/05/11

      Interesting comments, p_r.

      I’m thinking that the emphasis on ‘religion’ is what sets this immigrant group apart from others, they certainly get an awful lot of media time.
      Journalists should really look at themselves, in the way they go to the islamic church for its easy stories.

      Honestly though, the emphasis on religion is bizarre to general Australian society. Religious types generally find themselves marginalised in this country at the very best of times.

      Round-the-clock religion is very UN-Australian for the most part (for better or worse). It very often comes across as puritanical, intellectually lazy and spiritually unsophisticated.

      In many ways the media are merely pushing their readers’ buttons, by constantly writing stories about religion…. easy pickings.

    • marley says:

      03:36pm | 18/05/11

      P_r - yes, interesting comments. The problem with introducing any aspect of sharia law is that we would in fact be introducing religious rules where none currently exist. 

      Yes, priests can conduct marriages, but the marriages are only legal because the priest acts as an agent of the state in conducting the marriage. If he decides to marry a couple but doesn’t register the marriage, it’s not a marriage as far as the state is concerned.  He can’t act independently of the state.  He is performing a secular function as well as a religious one, and the state recognizes only the former.

      A divorce is only a divorce when the courts sign off on it.

      And, as for the Beth Din, it is my understanding that their rulings are not formally recognized by the legal system.  If followers of Sharia wish to have their marital and divorce arrangements done under sharia law, then they would likewise have to accept that the decisions had no actual legal standing and could be overturned by a secular court. I suppose we could agree with that.

      I would feel differently if other religious groups had religious courts which had standing in law, but, since, as I understand it, they do not, I don’t see why sharia warrants an exception.

    • dazed says:

      02:09pm | 18/05/11

      Most other groups who have emigrated here take great pride in the way they have settled here. I think of Italians and the many businesses they have created in regards to wine, pasta and restaurants.
      This group of imans are asking the rest of the Australian tax payers to fund their establishment of food businesses into the broader society. No wonder the broader population has difficulty understanding or admiring this group, this request indicates they do not take pride in striving for things as a group but agitating to be the law makers and wanting to have political power & a sense of entitlement of tax payer support.. How uninspiring.

    • John says:

      02:17pm | 18/05/11

      Islam is incompatible with the west full stop. Its utter insanity, that they are allowed to immigrate to the west. People need to understand that Marxists who control and engineer our society want to take over the world. To them whites, blacks, Asians, Christians, whats so ever get thrown into the same bin. This is why millions of immigrants are encouraged to immigrate to the west, immigrant crime is ignored in the marxist media, and whites complaining are servery punished. Its not that the Muslims want to take over the world, it’s the Marxists. If the Marxists didn’t rule the west, we wouldn’t have Multiculturalism, mosques in Europe and we certain wouldn’t give any foot holes to Islam as it wouldn’t be for white interests. We whites have had our Europe, but about 100 years ago it was taken over, the Marxists in power have decided to use Europe as base to create marxist empire with the future goal of expanding. They have no desire to preserve christian or the white people, to them we are just inferiors that must mix with other cultures and races. They must be laughing right now, as we look at Muslims as the problem, they see this working in their benefit, the situation they wanted. Marxists have the Muslims in check, after all the Marxists gave Muslims their green-card.

    • ShamWow says:

      02:49pm | 18/05/11

      We are all people just trying to get through the day mate…

    • john says:

      04:01pm | 18/05/11

      There is one in Toledo today also. Islamic Spain was not white, it was not European. It was ruled by Arabs from Syria and it’s military consisted of Berbers(non europeans, non aryans), Islamic Spain was not part of Europe. It was like the North Korea of today. Occupied terrority.

    • marley says:

      04:24pm | 18/05/11

      @John - you do know that Aryans come from India, don’t you?

    • fml says:

      04:30pm | 18/05/11

      John,

      You are deluded. Islamic Spain was not part of Europe??? North Korea is not part of Asia???

      Europeans are Aryans??? The only Aryans are the Persians my friend.

    • john says:

      05:21pm | 18/05/11

      From what i read, Iranians Males like are 40% European.
      R1 and I are 40% of the male population and it stated that 50% of women are European DNA. I would say India most likely did have an Aryan tribe going through India. R1B is the most dominate Male Y chromosome in europe, meaning that Iranians and Europeans are a close group. I believe they are Both Aryans. By Iran seem like it’s mixed, but the Aryans seems to just tip 50% or 60% while the rest are from Islamic invasion and surrounding tribes.

    • wilma says:

      02:28pm | 18/05/11

      Europeans have murdered each other for over a century now 17 million in Russia thanks to Stalin another 20 million to that other Socialist Hitler .We send our young men off to Afghanistan to die while we give Afghan / Pakistani’s etc.the red carpet treatment in Christmas Island .
      Yes Batta Gillard and Paul keating know we are to have a 75% Asian population so they can for some reason onl;y known to Labor politicians become part of rthe South East Asian forum.

    • John says:

      02:46pm | 18/05/11

      Well Hitler, can’t be blamed entirely for war. When Germany invaded Poland, England and France declared War on Germany, the US was dropping depth charges on Germany Subs before Germany even declared war on the US. Hitler never wanted war with England, US or France, They declared war on him. Hitler attacked Poland because they stole 40% of Germany.

    • marley says:

      06:23pm | 18/05/11

      John - you’ve put some tripe on this board, but this one takes the cake.  Hitler isn’t responsible for starting the war because he decides to invade Poland, and Poland’s allies abide by the terms of their treaties with Poland, so that makes them responsible?  Duh.

      And Poland stole 40% of Germany?  Poland existed for hundreds of years before Germany ever did, and it was the Prussians who stole most of Poland, as a matter of fact.  That the Poles managed to recover some of their own land from the occupiers after the first World War and you think that gives the Germans an excuse to try again?

    • Dee says:

      02:29pm | 18/05/11

      Batta remember the crusades. Enough said

    • Jon says:

      03:10pm | 18/05/11

      Batta@ One of the most potent myths of our age is that the Crusades were little more than an unprovoked attack by a barbarous Europe against a quiescent and cultured Islamic world.

      This at least is the populist language often employed on television and in newspaper articles for some reason. However that before the advent of Islam Christians had no concept of “Holy War” at all, and that it was from the Muslims themselves that Europeans took this idea. The Crusades, far from being an unprovoked act of aggression on the part of Christian Europe, was part of a rearguard action aimed at stemming the Muslim advance which, by the start of the eleventh century, was threatening as never before to overwhelm the whole of Europe.

      Jihad or “Holy War” was invented by “The Region of Peace”.

    • Geoffrey Chaucer says:

      04:07pm | 18/05/11

      Jon,

      The crusades were indeed not an unprovoked aggression. Also don’t forget the invasion of Spain and France by the Moors, nearly three centuries before the crusades. A French fellow called Charles Martel with his army pushed them back over the Spanish border.

    • iansand says:

      04:20pm | 18/05/11

      Whereas the doctrine of the “just war”, endorsed by God, was developed by St Augustine of Hippo (aka St Augustine) in the 5th century CE, before god had even invented Islam.

    • John says:

      04:35pm | 18/05/11

      You know in France, the Evil Satanic Marxists running the government aren’t allowed to teach the French students about Charles Martel! (FRENCH HISTORY) HAS BEEN REWRITTEN It’s illegal! Because the Evil Satanic Communists Marxists believed it would Nationalize the French Youth to the Nationalist cause, instead of their Satanic decadent International Marxist Cause.

    • Jon says:

      05:42pm | 18/05/11

      iansand @ Sorry to bust your bubble but Mohammed invented
      Mohammedanism not the sky fairy.

    • iansand says:

      06:33pm | 18/05/11

      Jon - You may have missed the subtle use of upper and lower case gs

    • Jen says:

      02:33pm | 18/05/11

      Just have a look at what has happened in Britain by introducing a law for them and a law for us!.  How ridiculous!!!!!!! It totally undermines our laws and society by allowing another to co exist which for most part does not even represent or is in anyway similar to our laws.

      This is the islamisation of Australia by stealth!!!!!!Lets go to a Muslim country and see if they will allow us to follow our laws in their country!!!!No wouldn’t happen in a heartbeat would it!!!!

    • Anna C says:

      02:46pm | 18/05/11

      The real problem here is that unlike previous waves of migrants (like post WW2 migrants) who have successfully intergrated and contributed to this country, Muslims come across as a bunch of TAKERS not GiVERS. It is always about what they want, not about how they can contribute to the nation. They need a change in attitude; perhaps they could take a leaf out of President John Kennedy’s book “Ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country.”

    • rodney allsworth says:

      02:47pm | 18/05/11

      the thing that australians dont seem to grasp is the fact that the word ISLAM-means =SUBMISSION, once we allow anything of sharia law to enter aussie legal system we will have SUBMITTED to islam as in the thin edge of the wedge, now aussies may not understand that fact, BUT THE MUSLIMS KNOW THAT, THAT IS WHAT WILL HAVE HAPPENED, and this is the thin edge of the wedge, then this will become the precedent for ever more sharia laws just to be able to comply with the original sharia laws, islamic beliefs,culture and politics are ONE AND THE SAME, in islam there is no room for a politicial system that does not line up with the sharia laws, of the koran, and to top it all off, muslims know better than westerners how to bend and twist our western laws against us better than any westener, they could make our barristers and crimminal lawyers look like prep schoolers, look no futher than europe and england and judge for yourself, when it comes to westerners trying to comprehend islam we live in a black hole in space, because the PC, POLITICIANS MULTICULTURALISTS AND SO MANY SOCIALLIST PROGRESSIVE VESTED INTERESTS WILL NEVER TALK THE TRUTH ABOUT ISLAM, to the point that I will be very suprised if this letter even gets to be shown in these collums

    • fml says:

      03:31pm | 18/05/11

      “I will be very suprised if this letter even gets to be shown in these collums”

      Well dont you have egg on your face.

      Go and read the real daves posts,
      He can explain it better than i can, It wouldnt even affect you, its only in muslim communities and only applies if you want it to and it doesnt overtake any australian laws.

    • RyaN says:

      04:05pm | 18/05/11

      @fml: “It wouldnt even affect you, its only in muslim communities and only applies if you want it to and it doesnt overtake any australian laws. ” YET!.
      I assume you are a Muslim here selling the “relax guy” line.
      Whatever next? Will we soon have to have Camel Milk and Piss on medicare? http://zionstrumpet.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/10/5-18-10-drink-camel-urine.bmp

    • fml says:

      04:35pm | 18/05/11

      Righto,

      Im not telling you i am not muslim because i feel the need to justify myself, i do it to outline how your assumptions are affecting your ideology. That is, they are ridiculously way off and plain wrong.

      Camel piss on medicare, you got to be kidding,

      Camel milk + camel piss + medicare = muslim invasion + an attack on australias sovereignty.

      Is this what passes for logic nowadays?

    • RyaN says:

      05:03pm | 18/05/11

      @fml: clearly you lack any logic to join the dots. Let me explain what I said slowly so you can understand. Mohammed prescribed camel piss mixed with camel milk as medicine, do you see that link right there to medicare? No.. well if we get Sharia law then we should be recognising Muslim “medicine” which should then be classified under Medicare.
      Try to keep up to avoid mockery, then again the accepted Sharia practice of “honor killing” is no laughing matter.

    • TheRealDave says:

      05:17pm | 18/05/11

      Ahh a link from Zions Trumpet website no less. At least we know your thought process now Ryan…well…more the lack of it.

      You’re not a racist Ryan, so do not let anyone ever accuse you of that, ever.

      You’re far too stupid to be a racist.

    • fml says:

      05:20pm | 18/05/11

      Righto,

      because i dont think muslims use camel piss as medicine this day of age in australia i must be sloooooow.

      “well if we get Sharia law then we should be recognising Muslim “medicine” which should then be classified under Medicare.”

      Thats absolutely ridiculous. Your off your rocker mate.

    • RyaN says:

      11:33am | 19/05/11

      @TheRealDave: wow what a contribution you made there, are you sure you didn’t just show what a low class dropkick piece of shit you actually are with that pathetic attack?

    • RyaN says:

      11:36am | 19/05/11

      @fml: hey I am not the one who prescribes camels milk and piss as medicine, that belongs to you lot.

    • RyaN says:

      11:39am | 19/05/11

      @fml: so here is an interesting question, as a Muslim do you accept that “honour killings” are acceptable under Sharia law?
      Do you also accept that a raped woman can be stoned to death for “adultery” under Sharia law?
      Is this what you want to do to the women in Australia, rape and murder them?

    • Considered Opinion says:

      02:51pm | 18/05/11

      If I said “send them all to Afghanistan, every single one of them, give them all the guns they want, then close the gates and walk away” am I being racist?

    • Ghost says:

      03:09pm | 18/05/11

      Big Gates?

    • John says:

      03:30pm | 18/05/11

      I could not have said it better myself.Let`s toss them some nukes for fun.

    • John says:

      02:55pm | 18/05/11

      Tell them to get F——D.Send these bastards back to where they came from in their dark caves.We should stop Muslim immigration in this country once and for all.

    • Alan says:

      02:57pm | 18/05/11

      Tory, so what happens in the event that there’s a divorce or a civil matter involving a muslim and a non-muslim. Which law applies? How can you have two standards in a country that is allegedly non-secular. It’s all very simple; these people came here knowing that Sharia was not part of our nations legisaltive process, they made that choice of their own free will so why should we change now?

    • TheRealDave says:

      03:48pm | 18/05/11

      Australian Common Law Allan.

      Sharia Law would only apply if BOTH parties agree to that kind of cultural arbitration. BOTH parties. Should one party feel harshly done by then they are well within their rights to take it to an Australian Court to try their case.

      At the end of the day Australian Common Law will ALWAYS overrule any Sharia or Koori or NRL…or any other community/religious/cultural/social court/arbitration.

      Its really not a difficult concept to understand.

    • John says:

      07:54pm | 18/05/11

      TheRealDave you do realise that under sharia law when you marry a muslim you yourself become a muslim. There is no misinterpetation of this rule my friend. Also you will find under Islam the father has the right to the children over the mother.

    • Matt says:

      03:17pm | 18/05/11

      Islam cannot evolve with the times because the Koran, Sura and Hadith are all classed as the true words/deeds of Allah and his greatest prophet.  Therefore it is beyond man to change, or challenge, anything they did.  And the preaching in the Koran is more about intolerance, hatred and violence than it is about peace.

      Of course there are muslims out there, and Simon, who will argue that Islam preaches peace and tolerance, and they might even quote some well known phrases from the Koran. 

      However, there is a concept in Islam (that is kept pretty quiet to Westerners), called “Abrogation”.  It basically means that the later verses in the Koran override the first ones.  So at the start there is a slight hinting of peace, but it is overruled many times later in the same book.  And it’s the verses of hatred that are to be followed.

      The so called “Religion of Peace” is nothing but a death cult, with a 1300 year history of violence, oppression, murder, slavery, rape and paedophilia.  Still that was the example set by Mohammed - contained in the Sura (story of his life).  Argue that one Simon!!!

    • Ross says:

      03:29pm | 18/05/11

      Don’t like our laws ,don’t eat our bacon . don’t stick around where your not wanted move to Dubie or whatever . Whats keeping you hear.

    • John says:

      03:49pm | 18/05/11

      The Marxist leftists say multiculturalism worked wonderfully with in Spain. You guys should re up on the Christian marters of Cordoba that were slaughtered savagely like cattle by the Islamic Brotherhood ruling Southern Spain. Also read up how wonderful they treated captured Christian Spanish soldiers. They had 25,000 Spain male soldiers beheaded in 12th century, this is utter human savagery,  in which they built a minaret with the christian white heads. Then they come out to state that Islam is the morally supreme religion. After the Muslims were expelled from Spain in 1492 and other undesirables, they had realitive peace and founded the America’s! When they seen that the american-Indians were committing human brutality, they stopped it because they remembered the Islamic brutality caused upon their people. The leftist Marxists, say how evil the crusaders were, how great the Muslims were. This is laughable. Just remember i despise Marxism more then Islam. Because the Marxists are evil liars, deceivers, and have caused more human misery then Islam.

    • iansand says:

      04:15pm | 18/05/11

      You might ask the Jews, who were expelled in 1492, the conversos and the moriscos about relative peace.  Not to mention (because no one expects it) the Spanish Inquisition.

    • fml says:

      05:01pm | 18/05/11

      John,

      there are only 48 martyrs of cordoba? can you show a link re: the 25,000.
      The Jews and Muslims actually got along pretty well under muslim spain, it were the christians who persecuted the jews.

    • John says:

      05:48pm | 18/05/11

      fml, it doesn’t matter 48 Christians, being killed and oppressed by Moorish Muslim invaders on land that was never there’s, was enough to launch a crusade again the them and expel them from Spain

      “«(...) Yusuf b. Tashfin (d. 1106) led the Al-Murabit (Almoravid) Empire to conquer from western Sahara to central Spain. After the battle of Zallaqa in 1086, he had 24,000 corpses of the defeated Castilians beheaded “and piled them up to make a sort of minaret for the muezzins who, standing on the piles of headless cadavers, sang the praises of Allah.” [22] He then had the detached heads sent to all the major cities of North Africa and Spain as an example of Christian impotence. The Al-Murabits were conquered the following century by the Al-Muwahhids (Almohads), under whose rule Castilian Christian enemies were beheaded after any lost battles. (...)»”

      http://tambemistoevaidade.blogspot.com/2010/01/minaretes-no-al-andalus.html

    • fml says:

      07:35pm | 18/05/11

      John,

      Those soldiers were already dead, if this is even true, you just gave a link to a blog i cant find any other references to the event.

    • John says:

      09:30pm | 18/05/11

      Castilians beheaded google search gives you a few links.

    • Graham Richards says:

      03:54pm | 18/05/11

      Just keep a very close eye on this Labour mob.  They’ll do anything for an extra vote.
      I actually would trust the muslims before trusting this government.

    • Holly says:

      04:03pm | 18/05/11

      Interestingly Muslim women’s groups do not support the introduction of Sharia.  I do not know why this part of my original comment was not included.

    • Convert says:

      04:13pm | 18/05/11

      Hey,
      If you can consider changing Aussie laws to allow same sex marriage why not to accomodate Sharia Law.
      People,get with the programe,within 50 yrs Aust will be predominantly Moslem within the city areas.
      Nothing like a good stoning before breakfast to get the blood flowing.

    • Geoffrey Chaucer says:

      06:57pm | 18/05/11

      Convert, I like your humour. Well done.

      Let’s all go planking on the minarets of Auburn or Lakemba.

    • Allah Bin Salome says:

      04:17pm | 18/05/11

      Kiil all da infidels. Sharia law rule!!! Allah Akbar!

    • Al says:

      09:51pm | 18/05/11

      Let me guess, you are out raged by:

      1.  a cartoon in a news paper

      2.  a Dutchman making a negative film about Islam

      3.  your prophets name being taken in vane

      4.  a book written by Salman Rushdie

      5.  you can’t get your own way

      6.  all of the above

      and then you are going to issue a fatwa and start a Jihad. Have I missed anything here? Oh yeah, I forgot your going to jump up and down wail and sook then call us all racist pigs and bigots…....just like last time.

    • John says:

      05:05pm | 18/05/11

      The book is utter rubbish. If the WEST was to EMPOWER White Christians, it will never allow ISLAM into the west. The problem resides in International Marxist Ruler ship, who encourage UNREGULATED immigration, in order to destroy social cohesion with in the white European Society, for primary aim of depowering the political will and power of native white christian Europeans. The Natural White Christian will is the opposite of the Marxist will. Whites native Europeans are being forced, to live with a society that instinctual, naturally disgusted them. The Marxists have setup laws to even contain any form of descent against the marxist dictatorial party that rules Europe. White Europeans are oppressed in their own country’s. War such as Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya are natural lyopposed by the white people of europe. But the Marxists in the French government, UK government, US government keep on walking over the white will. Nationalist Revolution is near, the age of social, and immoral decadence is about to be over come! long live Christianity, Native European people and Nationalism.

    • marley says:

      06:18pm | 18/05/11

      Uhh, John - don’t know how to break it to you, but Marx and most of his followers were all white Europeans.

    • Margot says:

      05:03pm | 18/05/11

      I think most of you are overreacting a little bit. I married a muslim boy,got married in a mosque and everything and there is a part in the ceremony where the imam asked me that in the event of divorce what amount of money or assets do I require from my former husband.I answered that I didn’t want anything but this essentially is the type of sharia law they are talking about.And I think that it’s more than fair for a woman to ask that she and the kids aren’t left in financial ruin should a marriage not work out.The family court comes first and then the agreement second(it’s essentially a Muslim prenuptial that is in the womans favor as a husband cannot ask for anything).All moderate and sensible Muslims and their religious leaders stress that the national law always comes first and foremost but asking a woman what she will need to survive in the event of divorce is not lunacy or incompatible with Australian values.
      I come from an oz as family(most of our forebears came here as convicts) of farmers,miners and truck drivers and if my right wing, john laws loving, bigoted “send the boast back!” family (they still are really sweet people) can welcome my husband with open arms,and love him and his family to death, then why the hell can’t anyone else at least try to give it a go.A large proportion of sharia laws aren’t compatible but a few such as the one I described (in my opinion) don’t clash in anyway shape or form with Australian values.

    • Margot says:

      08:01am | 19/05/11

      I find it interesting and incredibly frustrating that I try to make a level headed comment that is as fair to all parties as possible and does anyone have anything to say?Does anyone even want to engage with a moderate level headed person like me in a sensible debate that doesn’t boil down to fear and hate?Have any of you even spoken to a Muslim about these issues,questions and quandaries that you have?Can’t you see yourselves,gnawing away at your psyches in the dark scared of anything that goes bump in the night? Fear, ignorance and a lack of communication are the enemy not a group of people or a book.Find a Muslim coworker or neighbor and pluck the courage up to talk to them you may be surprised by what you learn and what lovely people so many of them can be(their just human beings after all,not two headed aliens from another dimension).Not all Muslims are good people,not all Muslims are bad people not all Koranic laws are good,not all Koranic laws are bad.Just like everything else in this world it is a grey issue not black and white.

    • Missy says:

      10:22am | 19/05/11

      Hi Margot,

      You seem to assume everyone who is ‘inciting hate and etc’ are all red neck bogans or idiots who have never travelled out of Australia.

      I’m Australian not by birth. I came here from Asia for a better life, because Australia is a SECULAR DEMOCRACY.

      As a woman, I can do anything I want and not be under the umbrella of some ‘religion’ or social expectation sanctioned by anyone except myself and what I choose.

      As a citizen, I can vote for who I want and not be hounded, intimidated and threatened for supporting anything other than the ruling party.

      As an individual, I can pursue and say what I want freely as long as I take responsibility for it and not have the country/society assume I am a child that needs to be ‘punished’ for saying or thinking something “wrong”.

      You take all this for granted because, I’m guessing and probably rightly so, you have lived in Australia all your life and never felt anything other than the PRIVILEGES you have been born into as an Australian.

      You think the world outside is the same la-la land you Aussies are so accustomed to.

      Well, its time to pull off those blinkers.
      So you married one good fellow. Good for you, I’m glad you don’t have to go through what my non-muslim and muslim women friends have to go through back in my home country because of ‘islamic law’.

      You talk about some laws being ‘compatible’ and some which flow well with Aussie law.
      Well, you can’t pick and choose.

      You might deny this or perhaps don’t want to know this, but your current life as his wife is as simple as: He allows it.

      Maybe he is a great guy, moderate and free thinking.
      But in islam, and in islamic countries, the life a woman lives is directly correlated to what their men folk ALLOW them to.

      If he decides you are to wear a veil, and you refuse, try taking that to sharia court. They will decree you to wear it because your husband decided it.
      In islam, there is no ‘headache’ or ‘marital rape’. He wants it, he gets it. He can beat you if he so likes. Some translations say, ‘beat with a toothbrush’ (??) and some say ‘lightly, leaving no marks, no face.’.

      But the point is, when you say you can ‘beat’ a woman because you dislike she does something which displeases you or in disobedience, you are saying she is not mature or an adult, or an individual worthy of equality and respect.
      Like punishing a child.

      You try taking his abuse to sharia and they will say - “It is permissible.”

      You might be okay with this because you have a nice husband who happens to be considerate and don’t feel the effects of what sharia does to women.
      But I think, thousands of women would not appreciate this.

      Do some research on the treatment of women in islam.
      If you believe in this, I would advise you convert. I’m not against islam.

      But I’m against being forced to live under islam as a 2nd class citizen.

    • TheRealDave says:

      11:46am | 19/05/11

      Margot,

      teh problem is is that this article is ‘yesterday’ article…and once it slips off the glosys front page its mostly forgotten. You need to get in earlier :(

    • Tony says:

      01:42pm | 19/05/11

      Well said Missy, very intelligent comments. I hope everyone else reads your post.

    • Jon says:

      04:13pm | 19/05/11

      Missy@ It had to be said, thank you.

      Margot@ I always try and treat other human beings as I would like be treated and can separate good people from their religion. But because they are good does not mean that their religion is good. Fortunately I am living in a Secular Society and have the right as a freethinking individual to make an informed judgment about any religion. Having lived under Sharia Law I found very little to like about Mohammedanism and much that was disagreeable.

    • Margot says:

      06:33pm | 19/05/11

      @ Missy: You’ve got a point,it’s not like I don’t look at countries like Indonesia and Iran and Saudi Arabia and shudder,I do but I think the hysteria surrounding this issue is extreme.Sharia law will never,ever be a form of law that encompassed all peoples Muslim or no in this country,it just won’t happen,ever,And don’t claim that it might because it won’t.It just won’t,ever.So people being so frightened of having a dialouge about the issue,about stating to to the muslim community that this is what is acceptable and this is what is not just boggles my mind.Shorely you could understand how isolated muslims feel by basically being told so much of sharia is terrible(I don’t disagree) and so many muslim countries are oppressive that we are going to lump you all in together and simply say “No,you’re all bad people end of discussion"This doesn’t help social cohesion.Nor does it help moderate modern muslims dragging the rest of their people into the 21st century.
      And yes I’m tremendously privileged to be born and raised here,I’m very aware of that and it’s possible that I have rose colored glasses on.Perhaps I am also privileged to know Bosnian muslims and not emirates but I’ve always felt that the way in which Islam is applied in so many countries is a social phenomenon,not a religious one.Maybe I’m wrong but I feel like if you’ve always lived within an oppressive society then it’s probable that religion will be applied in an oppressive fashion,regardless of if it’s Islam or Christianity.
      I don’t see why we can’t pick and choose,I really don’t.I don’t see why we can’t make it clear to the muslim community that there are sections of the Koranic law that are unacceptable but look ,think and talk about other sections and come to the conclusion,you know what some of this isn’t that backward(like the example I gave with my wedding,I think thats perfectly agreeable)
      I just love my husband,his family and his people and I hate for them to be shut down.His family came here fleeing from a war where they were being killed in the 10’s of thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) for being muslim,this makes me so sad (as it would if anyone of any religion where to be systematically killed purely for their beliefs) and it frightens me that without a dialouge the same atrocities may happen again,here, in this wonderful country.I fear for that day because sometimes when I look at so many of the comments on a site like this I can almost see it on the horizon and I am frighted for them and myself.
      We need to talk so we see each other as people and nothing more or less.

    • Sony B Goode says:

      05:14pm | 18/05/11

      The single biggest most powerful tool we have to deal with islam is to stop buying middle east oil, that means switching away from petrol cars. Saudi arabia funds 90% of global muslim institutions with our petrol dollars.

      Our politicians need to take notice.

    • Septimus says:

      05:22pm | 18/05/11

      Note to the Tin Foliers:

      Read the title…you missed the part about no hysteria…missed it badly.

    • Robert S McCormick says:

      05:48pm | 18/05/11

      They may be bastard laws, stupid laws, inane unworkable laws but what else can we expect from the stupid,inane,unworking bastards (male & female) we elect as politicians. BUT they are OUR Laws. We don’t need, nor will we ever accept, a bunch of laws such as those practiced in Iran. Laws which are every bit as bastard,stupid & inane as those we have created for ourselves. If people want a different system let them bloody well pack up & go live in a country where Sharia is the accepted Law. Sharia law is inhumane, cruel, out-dated & has no place in modern society anywhere in the world & that includes Middle Eastern Countries. I will accept & encourage those who want to practice their religion to do so - despite the fact that I believe the whole concept is irrational.
      You want Sharia law? That’s fine by me but we don’t want or need such barbarism here

    • fml says:

      07:18pm | 18/05/11

      The islamic virus decoded:

      [url=“http://www.inquiryintoislam.com/2010/11/basic-elements-of-islam.html”]
      http://www.inquiryintoislam.com/2010/11/basic-elements-of-islam.html[/url]

      Here are some of the key components of the package of ideas (or bundle of beliefs) known as Islam:

      1. A standardized version of the idea-collection is written down.

      2. The Quran includes instructions for its own spread.

      3. The idea-collection includes instructions for its own preservation, protection, and duplication.

      4. Islamic doctrine commands its followers to create a government that supports it.

      5. Permission to spread the religion by war.

      6. Lands must be conquered.

      7. The idea-collection provides new soldiers by allowing polygamy.

      8. It is a punishable offense to criticize Islam.

      9. You can’t leave Islam once you’re in.

      10. Islam must be your first allegiance.

      11. Dying while fighting for Islam is the ONLY way to guarantee a man’s entrance into Paradise.

      12. You must read the Quran in Arabic.

      13. You must pray five times a day.

      14. The prayers involve moving together in time.

      15. A woman is in a thoroughly subordinate position.

      16. The only way a woman can guarantee her passage into Paradise is if her husband is happy with her when she dies.

      17. Allah gives Himself permission to edit His own work.

      18. The Quran uses the carrot and stick to reinforce behavior.

      19. Islam provides a huge and inspiring goal.

      20. Non-Muslims must pay a large tax.

      21. A Muslim is forbidden to make friends with a non-Muslim.

      22. The Quran counsels the use of deceit when dealing with non-Muslims.

      23. Islam must always be defended.

      24. Islamic writings teach the use of pretext to initiate hostilities.

      25. The explicit use of double standards.

      26. It is forbidden to kill a Muslim (except for a just cause).

      27. If Muslims drift away from Mohammed’s teachings, Allah will end the world.

    • Cuppa says:

      07:47pm | 18/05/11

      I just printed it FML.Now its off to the loo to put it to good use..

    • John says:

      08:07pm | 18/05/11

      Who cares, the Virus is International Marxism, not Islam.
      If the west wants to deal with the minor issue of Islam in their country, they first must uproot the International Marxists who have ingrained themselves into western society. International Marxist is core problem of western society, the core oppressive element of western society. You can’t serve two masters, an eg is the fakers of International Marxism such as Notorious Communist Sarkozy in France, Cameron in the UK and Merkel in Germany, have stated that Multiculturalism has failed, this is because they know the Nationalists are gaining power, so they wish to be seen as Nationalists so that they don’t get toppled from power. It’s all a deception, since their parties and previous policy’s has been to bring about the Marxist EU to europe and the total genocide of Christianity and White Native European people via Mass immigration and the promotion of atheism.

    • the real fml says:

      09:03pm | 18/05/11

      cuppa,

      i obviously have imitators, thats a bit too much hate for the real fml.

      Im pretty certain its John using childish tactics.

    • Smith the Anglican says:

      07:27pm | 18/05/11

      interesting to see some muslims here playing doubting Thomas’s and trying to defend islam by pretending to not be muslims, that would be an example of taqiyya in action would it not?

      taqiyya is islamic deceit and deception to further the cause of islam.

      moderate islam is expressly forbidden under islam. not a single idea is allowed to be modified or changed in anyway from the core islamic virus.

      for a detailed look at Islamic deception see

      https://sites.google.com/site/islamicthreatsimplified/taqiya—islam-doctrine-of-deceit-to-further-islam

    • BTS says:

      08:00pm | 18/05/11

      ICT (I Call Troll)

    • 300 says:

      08:10pm | 18/05/11

      “O stranger, tell the Spartans that we lie here obedient to their word. “
      This last message of the fallen heroes rallied Greece to victory.
      First at Salamis, as predicted, and then at Plataea.

      But it was more than a victory for Greece.
      It was a stirring example to free people throughout the world
      of what a few brave men can accomplish once they refuse to submit to tyranny.

    • fml says:

      09:36am | 19/05/11

      The persians won the battle of thermopylae, and what the western scholars, well keyboard historians fail to acknowledge is that the persians did not use slaves, Cyrus abolished slavery in Mainland persia and allowed freedom of religion.
      The spartans on the other hand used slaves freely. The persians after the battle of thermopylae then moved onto Athens and burnt it to the ground, It was then the persians lost to the greeks at the battle of salamis.
      One wonders with the abolishment of slavery and the freedom of religion, all written on the cyrus cylinder, if the persians had beaten the greeks and alexander was not a conquerer that turned that region from stability into turmoil what kind of world we would be in today.

      Thats the problem when you get your historical information from crappy cgi films.

    • John says:

      08:34pm | 18/05/11

      Let’s me break this argument up for you Tory and the others who support this idea. I know Tory you are talking about the hysteria but this is based on facts.

      The first part of the arguments is that it will stop Muslims from living in enclaves by allowing the establishment of Halal business financed by the taxpayer. How many people have been to your local butcher or at Woolworths or Coles? Next time there ask them to show you their Halal certificate. Yes they have one and also note most meat sold in Australia is now Halal certified. So that arguments is gone.

      Second let’s look at Islamic schools. Well there are already many schools established in Australia. Many of these schools teach the normal curriculum but also teach religion. The books used to teach religion which makes up a large part of the teachings are sent from Saudi Arabia and have anti sematic teachings and the hard line of sharia law.  Also in these schools certain things like sports are banned and disapproved of.
      Why when the leftist greens and other make calls disapproving of the funding of private schools should they support these religious schools?
      Now the most interesting part, marriage and divorce
      Marriage
      Under sharia law when a non-Muslim marries a Muslim then that person is automatically converted to Islam. There is no requirements to say anything or even be married is a mosque. Once married a person cannot convert back or join any other religion under sharia as deemed to be a Muslim.
      Divorce
      The most interesting part.  For a Muslim man to divorce his wife under sharia law all the man is required to say is Talak three times and the divorce is official. If a woman chooses to divorce she must go through a council of Islamic men and most her rights are given up. If you think that if the wife is non-Muslim then the Australian law will over ride then just look above at my comment. As the women would be deemed as a Muslim she will be required to follow sharia laws ruling.
      In a divorce a women might get a good payment for the husband but hey that is part of our system now but the large problem here is that she has no right to the children. Sharia law prevents the wife unless the husband agrees to have her children.
      Also don’t forget they are not just asking for normal marriage but want to marry more than one.
      All this information is available for people to view and most people are worried for one reason and one reason only they can see what is happening around the world.

      i know you will like this Erik

    • Walter E. Kurtz says:

      11:16pm | 18/05/11

      @John

      “The books used to teach religion which makes up a large part of the teachings are sent from Saudi Arabia and have anti sematic teachings and the hard line of sharia law.”
      —Saudi? Oh, wait that’s that WAHHABI regime that is supported by the U.S. (and its allies including Australia) during the recent attempt by democracy-hungry MUSLIMS to overthrow it so they can live in the kind of FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY you failed at injecting into Iraq (by force) and the kind FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY that SOMEBODY is trying to inject into Iran and Syria.
      Now, why complain? You’re in on it. Muslims don’t want WAHHABISM, but if the OIL is going your way, you don’t really give a f***. And here you are, your allies (the WAHHABI royals) are sending some of their shitty books to influence our Muslims. And you’re shitting on your fellow Aussies who pray differently instead of taking it to the top. I don’t see you in Canberra, protesting against just WHOM our past and present governments say “How high?” to. wink

    • Jon says:

      09:20am | 19/05/11

      Walter@ Having lived there for 2 years I can tell you it’s a little bit more complicated than that. The WAHHABI’s who are complete loonies want to get rid of Saudi royal family and declare a even more stricter version of the Mahomedan religion than the one that exists now. The problem is when Abdul Aziz made the country he handed the education and many other parts of government intuitions to the WAHHABI’s. The Royal family has controls the Military, Foreign Affairs, Trade and of course that means oil.  This keeps them in good with US and safe from the WAHHABI’s. The WAHHABI’s still get buckets of money to spread their form of God Delusion around the world. Even if the Saudi citizens were able to vote it may be for once only and you are more than likely to end with the WAHHABI’s controlling everything.

      It’s a kind of a rock and hard place argument.

    • Missy says:

      10:06am | 19/05/11

      @ John,

      Hi John, only in some countries are non-muslims required to convert before marriage. Example - Malaysia.

      Many convert due to pressure, or having no idea of the consequences of converting (‘converting for love’) in islam and its laws on apostasy.

      The problem isn’t only the conversion for love.

      Muslim men are allowed to marry ‘chaste’ women of the book. Christians, Jews.

      However, the children are assumed automatically to be raised as muslims. This is because islam dictates that the man is the leader of his family and the family follows him - hence children are raised via paternal dictation.

      The problem is also non muslim women who fall out of the relationship (read: Just google non-muslim women and muslim men marriage and you’ll see many horror stories amongst the minority of good/happy ones) because the marriage didn’t turn out well for a number of reasons, and decides to leave.
      She has to go through a divorce court of law (sharia) and they will grant full custody of the children.

      If they go through a civil court in the West the woman gets the custody, but the man takes the chldren and run away to an islamic country. He has full control, and power there as he knows custody is automatically his and the sharia courts there will always protect a muslim over a non muslim.

      Most times women stay in abusive marriages or are blackmailed in the marriage simply because they fear they might lose their children forever.

    • JAL says:

      08:40pm | 18/05/11

      I haven’t read all the comments - too many - but most of you (and Tory) have missed the point. This is not about adding some extra laws to achieve any enhancement of anyone’s lifestyle. It is about IF our government authorizes a second judiciary to exist parallel to the one we have, the Islamic Authorities will have been granted judicial powers which can then never be interfered with. It is a pandora’s box and they know it. One which our entire secular system is supposed to protect from ever happening. It is a power play by those at the top of the Islamic hierarchy who seek to use our system against us.

    • Cuppa says:

      08:40pm | 18/05/11

      c’mon peoples its only a little bit of Sharia, whats the problem? It’t not like you are going to get the whole lot in one go. I brought vaseline…

    • Wolf says:

      11:08pm | 18/05/11

      You came prepared this time, cuppa.. smile

      you must have been walking funny for a while..

    • Robert Smissen, rural SA, God's own country says:

      09:50pm | 18/05/11

      Halal killed meat is best, not to mention healthier to eat

    • Bloggs says:

      11:42am | 19/05/11

      Your name is not Robert Smissen, is it Ali?

      Halal meat is meat, no better or worse than other meat.  A Saudi who once worked for me asked why I eat pork because it is so bad for me.  He sitting there at the time, obese like so many Saudis, unfit and unhealthy… I asked him to look at me and look at himself and see who was fittest and healthiest.  I asked him who lives longer on average, the Australian or the Saudi and he sat there and worried.  Then I told him that a good bacon sandwich is truly God’s favourite food…  Surprisingly he isn’t a friend of mine and he thinnks quite badly of me.  I worry about that whilst eating my bacon sandwich!!! [a true story]

    • TCB 24X 7 says:

      10:00pm | 18/05/11

      Can you hear it,
      chip, chip, chip, chipping away

      im afraid its too late.

    • Oz Bob says:

      12:01am | 19/05/11

      All I know is that since all this Muslim/Islam stuff started, the Kiwi dole bludger scourge who were coming in their hordes and ruining Australia, must have stopped coming.

    • AKoiLus says:

      01:52am | 19/05/11

      @ Phil Ebbott .Separation of Church and State is about the Church adhering to the laws MADE by the State only!
      Never the twain shall meet.
      This is Islam by stealth. A little bit here. A little bit there. Then one day your children’s children wake up in a country their forebears created, and find themselves aliens in their own homeland. If it’s only family law. Do they expect the beating of women by their husbands. Murder via ‘Honor Killings”  to now be legal?
      To many of these people in the ear’s of people in power me thinks.
      Thugs!. Belt it down Australia.

    • Reg Q says:

      06:56am | 19/05/11

      Having worked in Dubai for 5 years and been subjected to the Islamic Police, I could not wait to get back to Aussie. If you think in any way this bunch of Islamists is going to let this lie, then your wrong. They will push this till it hurts US and not them. Be warned these persons dont take lightly to being told by ‘heathens’ that they cant have what they want! From experience, anyone who is not of their particular brand of religion is DEAD. (just ask them on the quiet)

    • Ban Religion says:

      08:00am | 19/05/11

      They want Sharia law, they want halal food, so they can assimilate.  When they chose to migrate to Australia did they not know Australia is a country with no Sharia law and limited Hala food?  If not then maybe this is something the Australian Government needs to advertise in the middle east?  Australia has no halal food or Sharia law, maybe then the boats will stop?
      Sharia law is primitive like the religious idiots that want it.

    • Peter says:

      08:31am | 19/05/11

      Our laws and legal system have evolved over time from the Magna Carta and before. Our Laws have changed to suit changes in demographics social values and technology. Sharia Law is static it hasen’t changed since it was written. Perhaps the interpretation could be said to have changed but not the text. Even the Catholic Church and it’s decrees and cannons have changed over time to suit new circumstances. Sharia has not. It occurs to me that things have changed a bit in this world circa since 400AD. But not Sharia Law. So it seems to me that it cannot be the least bit relevant to us here in 21st Century Australia and any move to adopt it’s tennenats even in the most minor way to apply to only a minor segment of the community is a seriously retrograde step.

    • iansand says:

      08:55am | 19/05/11

      If you read the submission, on which this article is (loosly implies too much precision - perhaps tenuously) based, you will see that Islamic scholars say the opposite. 

      Islamic scholar against random Internet person.  It’s hard to decide which to believe.

    • Geoffrey Chaucer says:

      09:24am | 19/05/11

      Peter,

      Sharia law has adapted to modern times. Stoning is conducted in an environmentally friendly way these days, and decapitation complies with health standards. Swords are scrupulously sterilized before use.

    • Bloggs says:

      01:25pm | 19/05/11

      @ iansand, and random internet person will be a nicer person than your Islamic scholar because the latter will lie through his teeth at you and tell you all is fine whilst they take any rights away from their women and treat you with disdain as an unbeliever (i.e. if you are not also really named Ali).  Islamic scholars are steeped in superstition and lie and deceit…. and will sanction any jihad to acheive their aims of world domination.  Whilst of course that sounds a bit weird, it is in fact what is happening now as the freedoms of the Western civilisation are turned around against the West by the islamic people infiltrating throughout.

      Look at Europe and the USA and Asia and now here….... Islamic domination is coming…. chip, chip, chipping away at you.  1.7% of the Australian population are Islamic and just look at their unreasonable demands upon us…..

    • Jeff Koons says:

      09:10am | 19/05/11

      Where is Pauline when we need her?

      The rise of Nationalist parties in Europe are a direct result of Shariatisation that muslims are slowly boiling the European frog with.

      Normally I would think people like Pauline “please explain” Hanson are clueless twists, but unfortunately when confronted with a violent cult like islam all bets are off the table.

      The US is pushing to wean itself off middle east oil, this is good. It will dry up the petro dollars Saudis are using to spread its cult of violence.

      We should do the same. I’ll be looking at a hybrids and electrics seriously, not because I give two hoots about global warming but because I am sick of seeing muslims pushing their trojan horse of intolerance, misogyny, deception, double standards and violence onto Australia.

    • jim morris says:

      09:27am | 19/05/11

      Australia needs to be a muslim free zone. A big metaphorical wall needs to be built around the ‘muslim world’ with all the muslims within.

    • James1 says:

      12:23pm | 19/05/11

      Maybe we can call these walled in areas “ghettos”...

    • Ross says:

      11:08am | 19/05/11

      While I subscribe to the old saying ,” Fighting for peace is like fu*king for virginity”, All this has given me an idea. I shall call my next stud boar Mohammed

    • Luke says:

      11:25am | 19/05/11

      I really dont see how what is proposed is “unsecularising” Australia!
      Your arguement is unclear, and quite frankly you are creating fear in the direction of religion when you need not.
      I’m no islam, but the only people i see creating hysteria is the author in the direction of religion

    • Bloggs says:

      01:38pm | 19/05/11

      The fear is well founded.  Look in Pakistan at honour killings which is just one unsavoury result of allowing religion to control a large part of one’s life.

      No, wait!  Religion already controls ALL of a Muslim’s life…. so how long before these abominable acts surface here?  That’s just one example of why you are incorrect.

    • Jack says:

      12:27pm | 19/05/11

      Next thing you know we will have Muslims in Australia conducting “honour killings” (Family’s Murdering there own flesh and blood because they have apparenlty shamed them in some way) Just like the cases they are dealing with in the U.K at the moment. Its ridiculous, Its disgusting, Its PATHETIC. Sharia law should be outlawed in Australia.

    • Paul says:

      02:49pm | 19/05/11

      You muslims want Sharia… 

      simply put

      Piss off back to wear you came from and you can have all the sharia you want..

      Australian has a constitution based on Christian values,  with oaths to Jesus who is God.

      You muzzies can get stuffed.

    • Septimus says:

      03:30pm | 19/05/11

      What if they were born here?

    • Paul says:

      02:50pm | 19/05/11

      You muslims want Sharia… 

      simply put

      Piss off back to wear you came from and you can have all the sharia you want..

      Australian has a constitution based on Christian values,  with oaths to Jesus who is God.

      You muzzies can get stuffed.

    • andre says:

      03:39pm | 19/05/11

      That is not a very Christian message Paul. If that is you real name. Personally I think you are just a troll. I do not think australian constitution has any oath to Jesus.And it is “where” not wear..If we have Christians like you here God help us…!!
      I believe that having nations and a countries divided and anthagonised is on the agenda of globalists..

      “Ordo Ab Chao”

    • Jay says:

      02:53pm | 19/05/11

      Sharia Law and Democracy cannot co exist.Once they get their foot in the door then they will want more and more. This is how the new Islam activists operate. Just keep pushing and sooner or later they know that the weak lefties will capitulate. Sharia Law is a draconian and backward system used to settle disputes in villages. Women are nothing but property and have little equality in family law settlements. And to any of you trendys out there who believe we should be tolerant and also happen to be Gay, be warned of what they will do to you and your friends if they get the chance. Look at how Gay people are treated in Saudi Arabia, Iran,Pakistan and Syria. They are jailed tortured and executed. I have never seen the Jewish people demanding we follow Talmudic law or that Kosher butchers be opened everywhere and funded by the taxpayer. They go along and do their thing and mind their own business. These Islamofacsists just want everyone to believe in their retarded religion which has not developed since it was formed.

    • GingerKitty says:

      03:41pm | 19/05/11

      wow, another article on The Punch about Islam…to stir people and incite more hatred..how exciting
      I usually read comments by others, but I have a feeling if i start reading the majority of uneducated, hypocritical, and bigoted comments here I might actually cry.
      Let me just say this, the majority of Muslims living in Australia do not want Sharia Law, and if you believe otherwise, im sorry but you have fallen into the trap the media wants you too.

    • Bloggs says:

      03:59pm | 19/05/11

      @GingerKitty, the majority of Muslims get no say and this is a large part of the problem.  They don’t have a vote, you know.  the Bigotted guy in charge (the real bigots here!) tells them what they will do and they do it in the same way any despot will order his people around.

      It is not hatred to insist on one law for all, the same law for all and not a series of parallel laws where peopel are not equal.  Bigitry does not include equality.

    • the real fml says:

      06:45pm | 19/05/11

      Sharia law is not optional for muslims, it’s a core of the cult, and an essential part of the virus’ replication mechanism.

    • S. Morris says:

      04:29pm | 19/05/11

      the thin end of the wedge. the ‘thoughtful’ and slick pr face of islamicisation of the west. It is a growing cancer and must be ltreated like that. moderate muslims or quiet jihadists? Islamicists must be treated like over-indulged children. No must mean No. No comprimise, no deals and no mercy.

    • loulou says:

      04:42pm | 19/05/11

      Reject Islam?  Yes, we do.  Islam = Sharia law, eventually

    • Widdy says:

      04:52pm | 19/05/11

      1/ You cant be a racist if you are making a comment about Muslims, Sharia Law, or anything to do with Islam as it ISN’T a race, its a bloody religion, which people of all races practice.2/ Wrapping this law change up to say it will enhance a woman’s rights, (when she is already equal in this country) on Family Law matters etc is despicable. If we really seek reform for Muslim women ask them to speak not the men. Quite simple really

    • Annielawrel says:

      04:36am | 20/05/11

      Just as much junk in the Bible..but it is ignored..or called irrelevant..
      If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son..bring him unto the Elders of his city..and all the men of his city shall stone him with stones ,that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you…
      Deuteronomy 21:18-21

    • Sad says:

      07:38pm | 22/05/11

      This has more to do with the person who ordered the punishment than Islam itself. Read the full story before jumping into conclusion.

      From one of the comments there-

      Rape in Islam is a crime of Hiraba. The victim is not punished at all. the rapist is sentenced to death. It is in Hadith and it has been a part of Fiqh since at least 800 AD or so.

      Shame on this ignorant cleric for not knowing this and murdering this innocent girl.

      http://www.muslimaccess.com/articles/Women/rape_in_islam.asp

      It is sad to see so much misconception spreading around about Islam. Muslim’s themselves doesn’t know their religion properly and often engage in things that are not supposed to do. The others see this and think this is what Islam is about.

    • Bloggs says:

      10:24pm | 24/05/11

      Sad,  It is nice that you try to dispel the misconceptions.  But the fact remains that Islam is ruled by extremists and we should do well to be wary.  Sure the rapist is punished, but time and again the rapist cries foul and the victim is punished.

      Islam does that every day.  We don;t want Islam here and for 1.7% of the population you cannot have a parallel legal system

    • Zac says:

      10:20am | 20/05/11

      Tory,

      Tolerance is a good thing; moral relativism is something else altogether.>>>

      But leftists, the ones dwelling in uni’s,Marxists, Communists and Atheists are masters of moral relativism.

      There is such a thing as universal human rights;>>>

      No there is NOT. Human rights is part and parcel of Christianity. The Christian west has just universalised it. Just some food for thought, what has Atheism (State Atheism, Atheist Communism, French Jacobines, Secular Atheism - in the west etc)  got to do with human rights, other lawlessness, violence and death?

      One of the most important parts of our society is that it is secular;>>

      We are NOT secular, we are a democratic country (Australia’s Judaeo-Christian heritage should make that clear). Secularism is a back door means to implement Atheism. Secular Party of Australia should tell you that.

      Despite Australia’s Aboriginal and then Judaeo-Christian heritage, we are successfully secular despite various religions’ attempts to infiltrate and influence our Governments and our laws.>>>

      Secular(ism) (Atheism) ideology is forced on the masses through legislation and hence undemocratic however democracy is the WILL of the people and that WILL is informed (to leftists/Atheists who fear democracy it is infiltration) by Christ-ians (pioneers of democracy).

    • fml says:

      11:19am | 20/05/11

      “Human rights is part and parcel of Christianity. The Christian west has just universalised it”

      No, no, no. The first universal declaration of human rights was written on the Cyrus Cylinder, By Cyrus the Great who was Zoroastrian. This was 550 years before Christ.

    • Jon says:

      12:07pm | 20/05/11

      Secular Society is an invention of Christianity and it should be proud. It was designed to stop wars between Christian religions.

      The 1648 Treaty of Osnabruck, part of the Peace of Westphalia, specified three types of worship, “domestic devotion”, public religious services “exercitium religionis publicum”, and ‘“exercitium religionis privatum,” and tolerated communal worship by minority faiths in clandestine churches or as private, family or individual devotions.

    • andre says:

      12:21pm | 21/05/11

      @ fml :


      Ezr 1:1 And in the first year of Cyrus King of Persia, so that the Word of Jehovah by the mouth of Jeremiah might be fulfilled, Jehovah stirred up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia, and he caused a voice to pass in all his kingdom, and also in writing, saying,
      Ezr 1:2 So says Cyrus king of Persia, Jehovah God of Heaven has given me all the kingdoms of the earth. And He has commanded me to build Him a house at Jerusalem, which is in Judah.

    • John says:

      09:43pm | 22/05/11

      The way i see it, secularism allows multiculturalism. Multiculturalism is a marxist(leftist,atheist agenda). Humans rights is not a christian thing, it’s a marxist thing. Humans rights is more like a NEW religion, which criticizes anyone who gets in the way of International Marxist Power. Eg Would be the bombing of Gaddafi (We think he is going to kill his pet dog, so we must murderer all his military and him before he does” another EG would be if 5 trillion Africans turn up in Spain wanting asylum. The Spanish government states total expulsion, but the marxist humans rights courts state it’s in human to send them back. People need to understand that the human rights courts, are nothing but Marxist fronts and manipulators who think they are the new pope who can declare who and what is a heretic. The west is under the Yoke of the Marxist Cabal. Wake up from your slumber!

    • Zac says:

      02:24pm | 20/05/11

      fml,

      But the truth - as Dinesh D’Souza* makes clear in his book “Why Christianity is Great” - is (and I am willing to cite a reference):

      “Why Christianity is the ultimate defense of man’s free will

      Why ultimately you can’t have Western civilization—and all we value from it—without the Christianity that gave it birth”

      http://dineshdsouza.com/books/christianity-jacket.html

      * “Dinesh D’Souza is one of the most original, insightful, and penetrating minds in America today” Paul Johnson, author of Modern Times

      Jon,

      But the media sometimes let the cat out of the bag:

      “Yet it (WYD*) is resisted by many who seek a radical change in the status quo. They represent an aggressive “new secularism”, a philosophy much discussed by Benedict, that aspires to deny religion by shrinking it to a strictly private affair. In terms of governance, such advocates want not a traditional secular state to enshrine religious freedom, but the creation of atheism as the de facto established religion to drive real religion from the public domain.

      This constitutes one of the most radical and intolerant projects in Australian political history.”

      * WYD - World Youth Day

      Ref: Test of Spirit, The Australian

    • Ryan says:

      11:55pm | 20/05/11

      If they want halal shops all over the place it’s up to them to start them, not the government.  As for wanting this to discourage ‘enclaves’ whats wrong with keeping all the bad apples in one barrel?

    • Gran Depine says:

      04:21am | 21/05/11

      I wish to go back to my indigenous roots and introduce an ancient law in Australia. Honour the laws of the 12 Gods on Mount Olympus, Greece. I will feel greatly discriminated if other laws of minority groups are legislated in Australia and my pagan rituals are left out. Nothing like a good old fashion animal (Yep, two nipples, cavities, blood and a heart beat type of animal) sacrifice. Bigger the problem, the bigger the sacrifice. Forget carbon tax. Just sacrifice a few thousand bastards and the climate will re-calibrate itself….it will take a bit of time, but it does happen. So lets alll hold hands sing “If you are happy and you know it…let’s legislate a sacrifice”. Have a feed at our local watering hole, suck on a couple of twist tops and administer a good old fashion group sacrifice (endangered species are worth double points) to shake those RTA infringement notices and those occasional accidental and blood outright dangerous, referee head high tackle suspensions and club fines.

    • DavidA says:

      01:57am | 22/05/11

      It is simple.  The Law is something you have to obey whereas religion is something you only comply with if you wish to.  That is how Australia and all other secular societies work.  Once we start having religios Laws by implication they can force people to obey their rules.  Religion only provides guidance not the law.  Get over it or find somewhere else.

    • AmyW says:

      09:26am | 22/05/11

      Sucessfully secular? What a joke! Have a look at the state-by-state abortion laws, the religious political parties, religious yet federally funded schools and so on.

    • Peter says:

      05:53pm | 22/05/11

      I think sharia law should be applied to other areas where Muslims break the law. In Australia, around 3% are Muslim, but those in jails for violent crime constitute 12% of the jail population. If Sharia laws were applied to muslims who rob or main, and they had their consequences under Muslim Sharia law as well, then maybe the Muslim kail population might decrease as a percentage.

    • Vanessa says:

      07:10pm | 22/05/11

      Sharia law is a fundamental element of Islam, so rejecting Sharia is actually rejecting Islam and there’s no way of getting around that.  The Australian government should just admit it, and stop pretending Islam is just another harmless religion.  It has no place in the civilized world.

    • Leah says:

      08:37pm | 24/05/11

      “they’re not talking about empire building”

      They actually are, FYI. Of course they wouldn’t say that to you. But get chatting to a Muslim who is willing to tell you what the Muslim community *really* wants and is *really* aiming for and you might learn a few new things. Muslim leaders encourage their communities to have children (not that having kids is bad, I’m all for that - it’s the reason/aim that is the issue) *because* secular Australia has a very low reproduction rate, and in that way they can end up “out-breeding” secular Australians and end up with the majority vote.

      Of course the current call was not extreme. I don’t think anybody was suggesting that. But it seems many people recognised it for what it was - a baby step towards their ultimate goal of turning Australia into an islamic nation.

    • Jaydee says:

      08:47pm | 19/07/11

      Really interesting to read everyone’s comments.I was born and raised in a country of 26 cultures and languages, for 32 years - I have lived here for 42 years & and am very happy to conform to this country’s laws.The laws are fair and good for all. Where I came from Islam being one religion amongst Hinduism,Christianity,Buddhism,Jains, Zorashtrians etc. Islam could not dominate.  It is a known fact they are are law unto themselves,not tolerant of other religions, but will assert themselves over others where loopholes exist or allowed in a western country by sort of accusing them of being what they are, intolerant (racist).!!!  Australians they know are sensitive to this term so they will try to put one over, but this country has many minorities and each one’.s laws cannot be demanded to be included as part of Australian law. In Rome do as the Romans do,fit in and integrate. We are all Australian first. They have come from countries which have little or no freedom,cultures centre around religious restrictions.  If they are not happy in Aus theyshould go back, not try to divide and rule and cause disharmony.They are under no obligation to stay, but should be free to have their halal food, shops,mosques,schools and practise their religion(,not demand funds,concessions or dispensations on cultural/religious grounds) & as long as they do not contravene or try to change Australian laws to suit them and cause disharmony in a society which mixes well..If a muslim is constrained by Sharia( law in private )and is happy with it so be it, if not, he/she should have the liberty to appeal to Aus Law, as citizens of this country, which should be the premominant law for all of its people. Once these people become powerful it will open up a can worms and a lot of trouble will follow and this country will stop being Australian, it is happening in the UK and if our govts are too naive,or sensitive to the racist taunt it will be a different world. There should be some caution and foresight in this regard for the good of the whole country. We want integration not segregation please.. we want peace and Harmony, not religious wars and bloodshed. Thanks.

    • Kevin Hicks says:

      11:43pm | 15/08/11

      The trouble is Sharia Law is against all we believe in Australia

      Sharia4Australia Personally I ask Muslims here, in Australia what is their plan? Are they going to continue to reside here,weakened, oppresed without declaring their intentions, or are they working on ‘shari’ah by stealth’?, or are they going to continue to dwell here while having no intention of creating Emirate(s) here or indeed rising the Shari’ah here., I question. Do they want to live here in ‘denial’ of their deen & their obligations of becoming role-models for Australian society. Hiding their ‘treasure’ and the keys to success in this life & the next away from the Non-Muslims?

      Certainly most Muslims whom have migrated here have chosen Australia as their home, (choosing to commit major sin by running from legimimate Jihad in Afghanistan, Lebanon, Turkey, Somalia, Pakistan for example.) They choose to live here, in Darul Kufr, as ’Muslims’ and now we see them displaying their eeman, and their offspring are coming ‘back’ to the deen of ‘al walaa waal baraa’,of Jihad & pure Islam. Such irony indeed.

      Muslims are in denial of their deen and although they build large Mosques, wear the veil & Islamic clothes, the ebard, have halal food,Islamic schools-in fact every single item except full shariah law & hudud, why wouldnt they continue this struggle to establish Islam firmly in Australia?., Why would they be so shy to do so when obviously their intentions are to STAY HERE.

      Only a fool would deny this.

      Nay our duty is to indeed declare our enmity openly to taghut & non-Muslims, working for the establishment of Allah’s hukum openly & proudly without compromise. Surely we are not living in harm currently. If anyone can tell you surely it is I. Noone has crept into my room at night to assasinate me. Surely I would love to live in Islamic lands but my research & advic e& insight have shown me it is actually better for me to stay here and continue the dawah. I have had a recent mail from the actual mujahideen stating they have been aware of my work and are happy to see western reverts working in land of enemy & west calling for the Shariah and openly declaring their Islam..What better encouragement & evidence than this?.And Where in the world is hijra to?. Do we migrate to lands of tyranny & equal taghut?.

      Ibrahim Siddiq-Conlon
      Sharia4Australia

      0404459916
      isciae@yahoo.com
      Yesterday at 15:57 ·  3 people

      Sharia4Australia i do not have this email anymore.sorry. but it was beautiful.
      21 hours ago

      Sharia4Australia gone..
      21 hours ago

      Sky Blue I am a bit confused with your terminology, are you saying that Muslims that come here for
      a better life for them and their children instead of living in their country of origin are doing the wrong thing?
      14 hours ago ·  1 person

      Sharia4Australia essential ; YES.it is prohibited to migrate here from ‘Muslim’lands.
      10 hours ago

      You see they even claim it is prohibited to travel to Australia, and the Australian Muslims that have done so choosing to commit major sin by running from legimimate Jihad in Afghanistan, Lebanon, Turkey, Somalia, Pakistan for example.

      They also only believe that Muslims must not participate in voting for a Legislative Law, as Allah is their only Legislator and Commander .

      They do not believe they need to pay taxes as these are not legal requests for money.  They believe they should be entitled to their own Emirate succeeding from Australian laws and our satanic constitution.

      I repeat this is only the advocates of Sharia Law, and this along with their treatment of women and some men is why it should never be introduced in Australia.  As for Muslims that follow a more progressive Islam, they have integrated into Australian society and accept our Laws and Constitution, these Muslims are more than welcome here, as it is a different scenario entirely.

 

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