To borrow from their confected dinki-di lexicon, the Australian gaming industry must be officially up shit creek without a paddle if the best it can do is declare that a carefully-considered package of reforms aimed at helping problem gamblers is “un-Australian.”

Umm, nobody? Image from the un-Australian website, link below.

If being Australian means turning your back on desperate addicts in the name of multi-billion-dollar profits, maybe we should consider moving overseas.

The good thing about moving overseas would be that we wouldn’t have to endure people rabbitting on about how un-Belgian, un-Mexican or un-Ugandan things had become. It’s a construction which seems peculiar to this country. It’s peculiar alright. We spend a lot of time in this country debating what it is that makes us Australian, yet it seems that the people who run the gambling industry have come up with their handy definition of what it is to be un-Australian.

Indeed the only parallel I can really think of is un-American, a word which has a special place in history as it was used in the 1950s to besmirch people’s names on the basis of their opinions, often regardless of whether they even held such opinions or not.

By the logic of the gaming industry’s committee of un-Australian activities, it is un-Australian to cap the amount of money which problem gamblers can wager at $250 a day. It’s also un-Australian to give problem gamblers the option of declaring in advance how much money they are prepared to gamble.

This daft and meaningless term is the last refuge of the person without an argument.

And the only honest argument the gaming industry has it that it does not want people to stop and think about how much money they will gamble, because people won’t lose as much money. It’s not much of an argument, certainly not a very nice argument.

So instead they cook up a hysterical fear campaign around the fabrication of something called a “licence to punt” - which will never exist, by the way, and has not been under consideration at any stage - and dress it up in knockabout everyman language which treats people like dills.

I wrote a column last month about the pokie debate in the South Australian National Football League which looked at the relationship between the social problems caused by gambling, and the role of the clubs in addressing the social problems they helped create. This was the logic behind the noble but failed push by Souths owners Peter Holmes a Court and Russell Crowe to rid the foundation rugby league club of pokies.

Off the back of the Productivity Commission’s report, I suspect that public sentiment is now even more firmly against vested gaming interests today than it was some four years ago when Holmes a Court and Rusty tried to get rid of the machines at Souths.

The campaign being mounted by the gaming industry is so banal that it may hinder rather than help their cause. Over the years a boy who cried wolf phenomenon has developed with the pubs and clubs, as they claim every effort to stem gambling will lead to their financial ruination. By and large they are still rolling in it. I have more sympathy for the clubs - which unlike the pubs are constitutionally required to return money to the community through sport and services. But over the years, especially while working at the Tele, I’ve heard too many trumped-up claims of financial collapse and mass job losses which have simply not eventuated. Many of the sob-stories have in the past come from clubs such as the Penrith Panthers, which is so big you can actually see it from outer space, or been made by clubs which have been riddled by nepotism in their business practices.

Playing the un-Australian card shows they haven’t really got much of an argument anyway - at least not one that they can put honestly without sounding like they’re simply driven by the bottom line.

210 comments

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    • Jamesadel says:

      05:36am | 14/04/11

      One could argue it’s un-Australian to sit back and reap in the profits of known gambling addicts, knowing full well those profits mean that mother cant afford to feed her child that week, or that grandmother is going to lose her home because of her addiction.

      But one question should be asked, where does personal responsibility begin and when does it end? Should gambling on poker machines be treated like being addicted to smoking? and if so, then why isnt over-eating treated like an addiction instead of overweight people being called “lazy”.

      Personally ive never seen pokies as being addictive and I think its a personal choice whether to use poker machines or not, much like an overweight person choices to overeat.

    • annie j says:

      06:48am | 14/04/11

      And Mr wilkie thinks restricting the amount you can gamble in a club will cause addicts to curb their habit! I dont think so as their are plenty of other avenues to gamble and they dont pass on some of the revenue earned to the local sporting and charities.

    • Pete says:

      07:11am | 14/04/11

      I like you, do not have an addictive personality and I am pleased about that, yet there are people out there where the addiction or compulsion overides all feelings,beliefs or values you and i would follow and they do pour their money into these things.  Tehre is recognition that this happens, my father was a founding member of the catholic club in campbelltown this club has been around for many years now, and when it came to conditions of operation, there was agreement among members that if anyone did gamble their whole pay away, they would be banned and the money gmabled would be given to their partner, not sure if that is still the case.

    • CD says:

      09:16am | 14/04/11

      Personality responsibility?  Bah humbug? So passé a word in this new
      world order. As for addiction…been there, done that and with every hurting
      day I got through to the next although gambling has never been my thing.

      I have an idea though. In this new PC world of everyone else having to pay for others lack of insurance and lack of personal responsibility for actions I say we do the Labor thing.

      Introduce a gambling tax on all taxpayers and then rebate gambling losses to the most needed….much like the carbon tax./sarc just in
      case some fool misunderstand.

    • John A Neve says:

      09:57am | 14/04/11

      I love poker machines, I never play them, but I love them.
      Cheap meals, cheap grog, good facilities, entertainment, all due to the good old poker machines.

      More of them I say, “a fool and his/her money soon part” so play on fools, I love you as well.

    • donut says:

      12:00pm | 14/04/11

      I think you answered you own question. When the actions effect those kids that don’t get to eat that week, or the extra pressure on our taxes because that grandmother mow had to go into welfare housing. These are social and economic problems I would prefer to avoid in my community. In fact, there are no pokies in my state and we see far less problems with gambling.

      BTW: There is an Overeaters Anonymous which is an offshoot of AA and NA that follows the same steps.

    • Tim says:

      12:37pm | 14/04/11

      Donut,
      your answer would give the government carte blanche to do whatever they want.
      If the only prerequisite to banning something was “a child might not eat/get hurt/feel bad” then there would be a lot of new laws being passed.
      Solving the issue of problem gamblers shouldn’t involve anything that affects the freedoms of the vast majority of people who don’t have a problem. A poker machine or gambling in general is not inherently dangerous to anyone.

    • Random says:

      12:43pm | 14/04/11

      The pokies are part of a greater malaise…. being able to bet on just about anything and everything. In football it’s first goal, or try, what time etc and this can be combined with multiple other events too. There’s probably a book going on which head of state will be the first to trip over in the aisle of the Abby at the Royal Wedding. Quite plainly it’s bloody ridiculous. It’s not so much the gambling, it’s the number of avenues and betting options which seem to have proliferated in the past 10 years. Find some way of restricting the gambling options and the events & occurences that people can actually bet on

    • Venise Alstergren says:

      01:52pm | 14/04/11

      You’ve just come out with one of the cardinal snookers put out by the gambling industry. I refer you to “Grog’s Gamut”. Don’t bet on the joys of the pokies.

      <http://tinyurl.com6g4n3b>

    • Ando says:

      02:15pm | 14/04/11

      Annie J,
      In some cases yes but many have an addiction to pokies and are not interested in horses or travelling to a casino .

    • Drew says:

      02:17pm | 14/04/11

      @CD maybe you should read a little more. NSW has poker machine tax.

      Furthermore like Carbon Tax it only targets the subject, not “all taxpayers”.

      Whilst we’re on the topic of Carbon tax affecting “all taxpayers” - again another mistruth. If you want to avoid paying extra, you simply go for the (now-cheaper) low emissions option and save money.

      And before calls of offtopic “agenda pushing” ring out, lets look at who started this completely unrelated debate on this forum. As fearmongerers are wont to do - they love spreading fear in completely unrelated topics.

    • Civilised freedoms have limited says:

      03:24pm | 14/04/11

      I think it might be well for Australians to ask themselves just what kind of a nation we are, and what direction we want to move in. Is it tyranny or compassion to take a knife from a suicidal man? Is it oppression or concern to stop a drunk man from driving his car? Is the restraint of freedom a despotic act of subjugation, or a civilised act of compassion?

      If you have ever suffered from an addiction, you’d know that it can be the latter. Addiction is all about the dopamine. Once that kicks in, personal responsibility goes out the window. You don’t get a choice, it just happens. Even when you know that what you’re doing is wrong, you cannot stop doing it. It is never that easy. And it destroys lives.

      And that’s the kind of perverse manipulation that industries like the Pokies profit from. This isn’t about individual freedoms. It isn’t about personal responsibility. It’s about addiction; and helping those who can’t help themselves.

    • acotrel says:

      04:53pm | 14/04/11

      Isn’t the situation where an ATM is placed in a venue almost alongside poker machines, a form of entrapment?  If we really wanted to help problem gamblers we wouldn’t make it so convenient for then to access their accounts, and feed their money t o the machines.  If the victims had to bring what they were prepared to lose with them to the vemue, the game would be significantly different. The situation is even worse in some sta tes where you are able t o access credit accounts at the venue ATMs!! There should be no ATMs within 0.5 Km of a pokies venue!

    • Dicky olde says:

      08:36pm | 14/04/11

      A friend of mine had a 50 year old 5 family haberdashery shop business before Crown Casino started in Melbourne. Over say 3 years he went down to 2/ 1/ broke. All his grandmothers sewing and knitting clients just went to the machines.. deeply sad..

    • RossK says:

      05:16am | 16/04/11

      Reminds me of the TV commercials run by the tobacco lobby during the last election campaign under the guise of concerned retailers association or some furphy like that - that plain packaging for cigarettes was going to put local milk bars out of business - the premise being that the extra 0.1sec it would take someone to differentiate a pack of winnie blues from PJ super milds was going to reduce productivity behind the counter to the point of being unprofitable.

      People will always go and gamble.  But if we can stop them losing their life savings in one hour at the pokie machines, then that’s the least we can do!

    • Unoinist says:

      05:56am | 14/04/11

      Yeah Penbo, now all we need is for the tabacco industry to come out and say the same about their new packaging reforms.

    • Joan says:

      08:38am | 14/04/11

      And why doesn’t Gillard and Wilkie restrict gambling losses at the card tables, roullette and two up and betting on the horses, the football,  at TAB also Lotto…. I`ve seen some put in hundreds on the big prizes..  Lets do it properly…. cleanup all gambling in Australia. Max spend $20 per day. Issue a $20 Gillard betting card ...like a Medicard to each person and they can put there bet on anything they like.

    • Seano says:

      08:50am | 14/04/11

      The tabacco industry one is a classic. Why are the fighting so hard against plain packaging if it doesn’t make any difference as they claim?

    • Drew says:

      02:33pm | 14/04/11

      @Joan the difference between poker machines and other forms of gambling is that they are written by computer programmers to literally return negative results against the player if the house is losing money.

      For example you know that “Red/Black” double-up option? It is not a simple 50/50 chance. It actually returns for or against the player based upon whether the machine is winning or losing money. That’s what you call loaded dice.

      The difference between poker machines and other forms of gambling is that there are no “odds” - only statistics.

      The point of the reforms is to save the gullible from the obviously loaded dice.

    • Drew says:

      02:43pm | 14/04/11

      I should add, my source is a family member who works in the accounts department of a NSW Club. They have a computer in the main office which links in to all machines and actually controls the odds based on how much money the club is making or losing.

      It then adjusts the pokie return (how much to rob the patrons) from that single computer.

    • michael j says:

      06:07am | 14/04/11

      This daft and meaningless term is the last refuge of the person without an argument.THANKS PENBO you put me in a situation where i had to finally goggle this to find out what un-Australian means as nearly every time i have heard used is by some dickhead i don’t really agree with ,
      i find your use of the term to be quite satisfactory /?poker machines
      i stand with JOH on this one ,THEY SHOULD BE BANNED ALTOGETHER,,,
      if you have to bet in a pub play that silly game of TWO-UP,,,,,,

    • jf says:

      08:12am | 14/04/11

      So it’s not gambling you want banned just the type of gambling that you don’t like?

    • Anne71 says:

      12:40pm | 14/04/11

      I must say, every time I hear the phrase “un-Australian” (over) used, I always think of that classic line by Inigo Montoyez, from The Princess Bride:
      “You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”

    • michael j says:

      01:34pm | 14/04/11

      With the exception of the the rare lotto i don’t gamble ,,unless you count buying ,n,selling goods and property speculation,as that,,,pokies are one type of gambling that can cause problems my ex was spending 2500 a month that was 15 years ago ,i have had a few mates that have had raging habits on pokies,,they would even put money into a machine to get me to play but i wont,,they stay till they have no money left,,watch the people playing they seem fascinated,,but its a mugs game,
      @Anne71   Yes sometimes i hear it and i think ,why is this West Australian politiction talking about me telling me i am unaustralian when i don’t know him and have never been there,,if it has to be used it should be in the context of ,,Him, he dosen’t like vegemite on his toast,,,,,,,,,,,,

    • John B says:

      02:34pm | 14/04/11

      Hi michael j, I am not disagreeing with you here on poker machines, but in regards to Joh; I believe the Fitzgerald enquiry discovered that those who advised Joh on these matters were in the pockets of the inline machine industry (and that Joh may have known where that particular brown paper bag was coming from), and that contrary to the law at the time players were able to pick up cash wins “under the counter” as apposed to the trinkets on display as prizes.

    • michael j says:

      04:00pm | 14/04/11

      @JohnB I know what you mean,best part of that business is still to come
      The files locked up under the thirty year b4 you open rule,probably won’t get to see that,,
      I remember watching tv the nite that reporter ? ask that young cop ‘‘do you know that there is a brothel in that building’’ World by Nite ‘’ lite up over their shoulders,,,No you are mistaken Sir,,there no brothels in Queensland,,
      I said to my mate ,,i was there on Friday nite,hope i don’t get dragged into this,,

    • Patrick says:

      06:12am | 14/04/11

      The important thing is…..will it be opposed in the federal parliament?

    • Luke says:

      09:03am | 14/04/11

      I’m sure if Gillard can’t get everyone over the line, Wilkie isn’t going to pull his support for her. If she supports him and the pokie reforms but the Independents don’t than that isn’t her fault. And this is what will happen, Wilkie’s grandiose announcements and threats are all hot air. And the Independents can save some favour with their electorates by going against it and Gillard.

    • David C says:

      11:56am | 14/04/11

      This is where it gets interesting and tricky for Gillard. She is out there reclaiming her party base - low to middle class working families - yet she is going to be caught out with this reform. These families she is so keen now to represent spend a lot of time in the clubs and their kids play sport on the weekends, sponsored to a great extent by the same clubs.
      Now she wants to threaten that? So she backs down and loses Wilkie or she goes ahead and loses the party faithfull?

    • St. Michael says:

      12:18pm | 14/04/11

      @ David C: If, as some blogs here have postulated, she’s purely a “pragmatist” politician who (her words) would rather get a compromise rather than an all-or-nothing approach, I suspect she’ll bow to Wilkie.  She has no real connection to the party base, she’s in the Left simply because it’s the fastest ride to high office in Labor at the moment.  Her only party, like most politicians, is Power.

      Ironic that it takes an independent to make a moral stand on principle without fear and a party that’s supposedly for social justice to be desperately running around balancing moral plates on sticks within their own caucus.

    • TChong says:

      06:45am | 14/04/11

      There are 2 indisputable truths in gambling , of any type :
      1) You’ve got to know when to hold ‘em, know when to fold ‘em,
          Know when to walk away, know when to run.
      2) “Systems ” -the Bookies love them.  Explains / defines the very apt term
          “Mug Punter”

    • Richard says:

      09:48am | 14/04/11

      I agree with point 1) Chongie, but as for point 2), what about that Tassie bloke who recently opened up MONA? He knew how to game a system.

    • Punters Pal says:

      10:50am | 14/04/11

      This Tasmanian bloke you are talking about, David Walsh, together with his mate Zelkjo worked out a system which does not rip off bookies, but other, smaller punters. They basically bet big into TAB (which by its nature never loses) and then get a kickback in form of rebate from TAB, which reduces dividends for other winning punters.

      It is an absolute travesty that the kickbacks from TAB (this case Tote Tasmania) are allowed as it clearly favors some punters over others.

    • HappyCynic says:

      11:20am | 14/04/11

      @TChong

      There is a third indisputable truth about gambling:

      3) A smart gambler never lays down more than he can afford to lose.

    • thomasr says:

      11:45am | 14/04/11

      Poker machines are not gambling. You cannot win. They are loaded dice. you can’t be “good” at poker machine playing. There is no skill, you just let the algorithm steal from you. For shame.

    • Edward James says:

      01:53pm | 14/04/11

      Poker machines are like banks you put your money in and they take a little bit, if you continue to put that money in, eventually the machine percentage will take it all!

    • No cash says:

      02:20pm | 15/04/11

      Machines should pay on the spot, too. I dont know if this is a uniform practice but I played a machine game at Panthers and won a bit, lost a bit, got bored - still had my initial wager and wanted to cash out. I hit “cash” and nothing happened. I hit “cash” again… and nothing else happened. I looked around and hit CASH.. to get my cash… nothing. As I was about to hit the ‘call’ button a waitress came over and told me off because I kept setting off and then cancelling the call button.
      I said no I’m trying to cash out - I want my $10 back. I’m not touching the call button.
      So she showed me what happened when I hit ‘cash’ - a red light came on in the ‘service’ indicator. Hit ‘cash’ again, and it turned off.
      The waitress had to print me a receipt for $10 and I had to go and stand in a queue at the cashier to get my money back.
      The cashier looked at the $10 receipt like it was a used condom and made a great show of counting out 10 $1 coins for me.
      I let the cashier finish and then said “Can I have 2 x $5s please?”
      More drama. Be nice if the fish took a bait so quickly..

      This prevention from collecting has hit the melb casino as well.. instead of cash you get a receipt.
      Why not just require all machines to pay out money up to $30?

    • S.L says:

      06:52am | 14/04/11

      Look at pubs and clubs around the greater Sydney area. Back in the late 70s to the early 90s the pub rock scene was booming! You could go out and find any number of place to have a drink and catch some of our best bands before they got too big. Then card machines arrived into pubs soon followed by pokies. A guy told me when this started publicans started trading in their Commodores for Porsches! The whole industry is fed off addicts as people like me throwing $20 in every blue moon wouldn’t employ anyone!
      Un Australian? Go figure!

    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      08:13am | 14/04/11

      They should only ever have been allowed in sporting and community clubs where the profit went back to the sporting club and the community. Not into the pockets of a few pokie barons. And Woolworths, who are now the single biggest owner of pokie machines in Australia.

    • Tim says:

      08:57am | 14/04/11

      Yes SL you are correct.
      But go and look at the problems that venues have with live music these days and you will see the main reason there aren’t more of them.
      Security, Liability insurance and noise restrictions just to begin.
      Hosting live music these days is just simply too expensive and blaming pokies simply too easy.
      If the government made it easier to host more live music then i’m sure more venues would have it.

    • James says:

      06:56am | 14/04/11

      “Personally ive never seen pokies as being addictive”

      Fortunately the DSM-IV doesn’t care what you think.

    • Rosie says:

      07:53am | 14/04/11

      I had a brief flirtation with pokie addiction, luckily I didn’t loose my home although my self-respect took a battering!  When I sought help it was impossible to explain why I found it so compulsive - it was like one of those dreams where you are absolutely unable to control your actions.  So I support anything that helps addicts to stop, I’m un-Australian as Ghengis Khan on this subject.

    • Rosie says:

      09:23am | 14/04/11

      This is not me, have never had an addiction on anything because I know how important it is for me to take responsibility of my well being! This Rosie must new here!

    • Chris L says:

      10:11am | 14/04/11

      I was thinking that Rosie sounded a little too humble and empathetic to be “our” Rosie grin

    • Rosie says:

      11:13am | 14/04/11

      Chris L

      Would never go out of my way to seek anyones’s opinion of me being humble or empathetic because showing humbleness and empathy comes naturally with me when it is warranted.

    • L. says:

      07:13am | 14/04/11

      This will be as effective as the Labor Gov’s “alocopop” tax.

    • Freeman says:

      08:53am | 14/04/11

      I don’t think so. It makes gamblers think about how much money they are willing to loose before they are not sat at the pokie and can think rationally. apparently 40% of clubs profits come from problem gamblers and that is why the clubs are so shrill on this. Credit to Wilkie, Xenephon and the ALP on this one.

    • Paul C says:

      07:16am | 14/04/11

      Why should I as an Adult, responsible for my own actions be forced to go and get one of these licenses to punt, all because of a few who have a problem? Or more alarmingly because we have a Prime Minster, who is so desperate to cling to power that she will do absolutely anything to please the minor players in this government. Just think of the job loses this is going to cause - so much for Labor being all about the workers. They are all about self preservation and nothing else.

    • LeonT says:

      08:23am | 14/04/11

      From the article:

      “So instead they cook up a hysterical fear campaign around the fabrication of something called a “licence to punt” - which will never exist, by the way, and has not been under consideration at any stage - and dress it up in knockabout everyman language which treats people like dills.”

    • Chantal says:

      08:25am | 14/04/11

      Paul C,
      (a) The article and a number of commentators have already disputed that jobs will be lost, I haven’t seen solid evidence for either argument yet, so you have any?
      (b) I am not sure how old you are or where you grew up, but once upon a time we had something in Australia called a “community.” In a community people look after and look out for each other, like those with alcohol or gambling problems (see Pete - catholic club. above). Apparently in Australia these days materialism and self indulgence are the norm and those who care for other are scorned and called communists. The only time larger Australia resembles anything of a community is when all their material possessions get destroyed i.e. in floods.

    • Economist says:

      08:28am | 14/04/11

      Well your not being forced onto a licence. This is a pre-emptive strike by the industry the exaggerate the effects and scare people into not supporting some reform, any reform. They’ve seen the impact of these campaigns by the mining sector and are copying it.

      I believe around 40% of their revenue comes from problem gamblers. yet out of 5M users only 100000 are defined as problem gamblers.  So these figures alone show you the extent of the problem. However I also have a problem with the definition of problem gamblers. The 100000 doesn’t seem to take into account people who spend all their savings but don’t go into debt, but still secretly behave as an addict. There’s no line that says your an addict or not. You either spend, money you don’t have serious problem, spend all your money, problem, spend what you can afford, no problem. .

      From my point of view some reform is required. mainly around limits and the way problem gamblers are identified and excluded from clubs.

    • Economist says:

      08:27am | 14/04/11

      Well your not being forced onto a licence. This is a pre-emptive strike by the industry the exaggerate the effects and scare people into not supporting some reform, any reform. They’ve seen the impact of these campaigns by the mining sector and are copying it.

      I believe around 40% of their revenue comes from problem gamblers. yet out of 5M users only 100000 are defined as problem gamblers.  So these figures alone show you the extent of the problem. However I also have a problem with the definition of problem gamblers. The 100000 doesn’t seem to take into account people who spend all their savings but don’t go into debt, but still secretly behave as an addict. There’s no line that says your an addict or not. You either spend, money you don’t have serious problem, spend all your money, problem, spend what you can afford, no problem. .

      From my point of view some reform is required. mainly around limits and the way problem gamblers are identified and excluded from clubs.

    • Paul C says:

      08:49am | 14/04/11

      @ Chantal
      (a) People who have to register to get this license will just consider it just too hard to get it and simply won’t bother.  I for one probably put ten dollars in a machine once a year - the machines don’t do much for me - no skill required, however I should have the right to do this, without all the red tape.
      (b) I am in Gen X, the generation that looks after their own affairs and actions - doesn’t go around looking to blame others for my own decisions.  I don’t know how old you are either, but I would bet my bottom dollar that you are a Gen Y’er - the type that expect everything to be done for them and has very poor life skills. The type that goes and blows their whole pay packet on a pokie machine, can’t eat for a week and then goes and does it again the next pay cycle - rather than say “Gee wasn’t I stupid, better not do that again”

    • Tim says:

      09:01am | 14/04/11

      Economist,
      so what you are really saying is that 4.9 million pokie players supply 60% of the revenue and don’t have a problem?
      And these laws that should be targetted at 100K people are instead being applied to everyone?
      Why should the other 4.9 million people be restricted for the stupidity of a few?
      We should come up with more directed strategies to handle the problem gamblers. Surely there is a better way than this.

    • CD says:

      09:47am | 14/04/11

      Oh Chantal please grow up. Your definition and self pity with the
      communist comment does your argument no service. First off is your intent
      that in a community we all gang up to ensure those who do not meet our
      standards of compliancy be brought into line by the mob and thus to
      conform to the collective ideals as opposed to the individual’s ideals?Yeah that is communism and I don’t want a bar of it. I reiterate I’ve been
      there although the addiction was not gambling and hey apparently I have
      totally non addictive personally. Go figure huh?

      But I held no one else responsible and screamed my way through every
      day- with several addictions. Glutton for punishment or what? I have to
      fight it with a brain illness too that makes me OCD so tougher still b/c I
      crave and need the addiction of the moment.

      As for the floods I was part of them. I spoke to enough people ehile stranded. How about we face some reality.
      Plenty of people either chose no insurance or knew they had no flood
      cover so why are we meant to turn around and fix all their problems when again lack of personal responsibility caused their circumstances?

      I’ve given time, money and goods but that doesn’t mean I believe these same people did the right thing. I do not include those who thought they
      were covered and whose PDS’s were a load of BS. I know about those PDS I worked in insurance.

      Stop dumbing down society to suit a collective feel good need. It’s why we’re exactly in this situation. Families of gamblers need help but gamblers need to step up to the plate to get help and I refuse to allow more govt interference under the guise of ‘helping’ in an already overgoverned but more nanny country.

      It’s exactly what you socialists want.

    • Kayte says:

      10:42am | 14/04/11

      @ CD Communism?  Really?  I thought it was just having a social conscience.  BTW I am NOT a “You Socialist”.  I am ardent Lib supporter on the principals of “freedom of individual”  but like most people, regardless of political persuasion, I am able to determine the different between right and wrong.

    • Liberty Bob says:

      10:52am | 14/04/11

      @Chantal - community is voluntary - people helping each other because they have individually decided to .Thats great, if that is how those individuals decide to act, nobody here would argue against that.

      When the government steps in and forces people to help, usually by siezing and redistributing their assets in a very inefficient manner, that is socialism. Its also an act of violence against the individual. Its very wrong and should be opposed at every turn.

    • wolf says:

      12:36pm | 14/04/11

      @Liberty Bob
      Do you mean seizing assets in acts of violence like ‘taxation’? And then using that money to pay for things such as emergency services? That sounds like socialism to me, if someones house is on fire they should take personal responsibility and put it out themselves rather than become a burden on the taxpayer.

    • Super D says:

      07:30am | 14/04/11

      I actually think pubs and clubs should be forced to choose to sell booze or have pokies but not both.

    • mb says:

      11:09am | 14/04/11

      I agree totally Super D

    • Tombarina says:

      07:42am | 14/04/11

      “UnOrstrayan” is the biggest whore-word around.
      Although applied bilaterally in virtually any debate these days, it’s still regarded by some nuffies as a decider.

      “I don’t agree with you.”
      “Oh yeah? Then you’re UNORSTRAYAN.”
      “Umm - I don’t get your point.”
      “That’s UNORSTRAYAN too!”
      “I’m going home now….”

      For the pokie-huggers to flog this tired, meaningless, vapid old slurry of a word as the ultimate ‘why’ in their horrid little argument shows how hollow and indefensible they secretly know their position to be.

    • Admiral Benbow says:

      07:55am | 14/04/11

      WTF is Erick on all this? I don’t know what to think. I do however remember my father getting the RSL in Gosford to give a man back a large percentage of what he had put through the pokies so his wife and kids could eat, back in the 60’s. They then banned him from the club for life. First steps I reckon.

    • Barman says:

      07:56am | 14/04/11

      Come on maaaate. Un-Australian is not something peculiar to the local ponytail wearing advertising creatives. It’s a direct lift from the term un-American and it’s equally lazy journalism to say otherwise.

    • malohi says:

      09:57am | 14/04/11

      That was my first thought, how could anyone miss that.
      But the article was so much better than the ones from Penbo’s recent slump that I did not want to say anything.

    • BL says:

      07:59am | 14/04/11

      Pokies are not addictive.

      People have addictive personalities.  So if you take away the pokies they will most probably find some other addiction.

      I think there are too many pokies in pubs and clubs, but I think that people need to start to take responsibility for their own actions or we are going to have a society where nobody takes personal blame.

      We are already seeing this with murderers, child molesters and rapists blaming “depression”, we have overweight people blaming “marketting” and “cheap fast food”, we have anorexics blaming “women’s magazines and models”.

      When are people going to start taking responsibilities for their actions in life?

      Im fat because I eat too much and dont exercise enough. I know that, I’m not blaming anybody or anything else and im happy to accept the stigma that comes with that, so why should others get away with blaming the things they are personally addicted to?

    • Gratuitous Adviser says:

      09:32am | 14/04/11

      Hi BL
      Fat and play the pokies.  You definitely fit the stereotype of the typical addicted poker machine player.  Overweight, poorly dressed (cheap flowery dress optional), dirty shoes or cheap sneakers, glasses, sitting on the carpeted bar stool, handbag or shopping on lap looking forlorn at their future on the bright screen.  When smoking was allowed, it was the smoke filled room that topped off the complete scene and life of some Australians. 
      This is cheap shot but I could not help myself.  You are right.  There are “Australian” losers that are easily manipulated by bright lights and manipulated dreams and futures who will ultimately lose their wealth, pride and self respect anyway.  But why should it be made so easy for those simple sheep to be fleeced, as it is now. 
      To not fit into this scene is “un-Australian”, I am told by Woolworths and the Clubs and Pubs lobby groups.  Woolworths are the biggest owner of poker machines in Australia, I am told.  Go to any club that bleats the public service issue and consider the proportion of space given to the Pokies/Keno etc and the space given to non-gambling, and then consider what the priorities are.
      It was morally wrong for us “un-Australians” to let the politicians get us into this position in the first place, and it is ultimately us “un-Australians” that will drive the politicians to lead us out of this culturally defective state. 
      Wilkie and Xenophhon should be congratulated for taking this very brave stand against these powerful lobby groups with unlimited pockets in other men’s trousers.  It will be very interesting to see how many pollies make the statement “I hate the things and do not play them but this is not the way to fix the problem” and then promptly go and hide.

    • BL says:

      10:17am | 14/04/11

      Yes, very cheap shot, especially since Ive never played a poker machine in my life. But I expect nothing less from a Punch Blogger who lives online and needs to comment on every single Punch post. raspberry Is your alter-ego “Erick” by any chance? wink

    • Gratuitous Adviser says:

      01:54pm | 14/04/11

      Hi BL,
      I did not mean to upset you (it was a bad and personal joke/observation) and for that I apologise.  You must not live in NSW to make a statement like “I have never played a poker machine in my life”.  Is there an age issue here??  If this is true, I guess you have not seen or heard of the misery that these things can do to those that are indeed hooked.  Not you of course because you have never put a penny in them. 
      Hey, your response reminded me of the “It will be very interesting to see how many pollies make the statement “I hate the things and do not play them but this is not the way to fix the problem” and then promptly go and hide.” statement.  Again, a poor joke. 
      I do not know Erick (Do you mean Erick the Viking??) and I only comment on the important issues like the ALP in NSW (Right of course), Wikileaks and EBay (very important and little known connection there), Illegal immigrants (A disease in the US and Europe and a time-bomb here), secret agent Arbib (nuff said), ALP 2010 Election Review (let’s wait and see what happens),  Queensland Floods ( It was the dumb, damb, dam’s fault) any many other things but only about 1 in 10 on Punch (because it’s a Murdoch thing, but still enjoyable and interesting).
      Hey, I must be a “Punch Blogger who lives online and needs to comment on every single Punch post” but is this not a pot, kettle, black thing?  I enjoy it anyway because I get to read and write to people that are interested, especially Erick the Viking.

    • Surely says:

      02:51pm | 14/04/11

      Pokie machines are addictive and the addiction does not automatically translate to horse racing or Casinos. They are local, convenient, brainless,hypnotic and set in a community atmosphere. I know people who love the pokies but have no interest in horseracing or going to the casino.

    • Sue Pinkerton says:

      03:05pm | 20/04/11

      BL: Researchers have ye to find any set of traits that define the “addicitve personality”. All people who are able to learn are potential addicts because addiction involves both access to an addictive and learning that the addictive produces a meaningful effect.

      In addicts, there is excessive repitition of reinforced behaviours because the reinforcment applied is meaningful in some way and/or it follows rapidly after the drug taking (or gambling) behaviour.

      In the case of certain drugs, the high they cause provides the reinforcement. i.e. the drug either aleviates stress and/or unpleasant emotions. If a drug produces no high no one will become addicted to it going to reinforce drug taking behaviour - you can’t become addicted to antibiotics for example.

      In the case of pokies, the reinforcement - winning money- is intermittently and randomly applied within 4 seconds after a bet is placed.

      This speed and accessibility is PRECISELY why pokies have become more problematic (and profitable) since computerisation, their widespread distribution and their marketting as a mere game.

      Personality, character, determination to not play have nothing to do with addiction to this particular form of gambling.

      People simply haven’t been told of the risks of using these machines although the industry knows full well how addictive and behaviour shaping they are because they spend hundreds of millions of dollars each year making sure they are.

    • Eskimo says:

      08:10am | 14/04/11

      If I go into the same club and have a drink, would the government want me to register because the guy next to me might be an alcoholic? People who aren’t problem gamblers have the right to quiet enjoyment of their pokie pastime.

    • Tombowler says:

      10:05am | 14/04/11

      No but the bartender would get in some shit if he served you or the drunk 56 beers over the course of the evening…

      The “Right” to play pokies is a total crock of shit- it’s not a ‘right’ and never has been considered a f$cking ‘right’. It’s an amusement and nothing more. The same way your ‘right’ to eat salmonella-tainted chicken at a restaurant that doesn’t follow Health codes isn’t a f#cking right.

      Dickheads co-opting important arguments and concerns about civil liberties to apply them to pokies machines is demonstrably f#cktarded and you and all your ilk are pathetic tossers if you’re not an addict and view pokies money-holes as something worth making civil liberties statement about.

      What about my ‘right’ to not wear a seatbelt? ya dickhead

    • Kayte says:

      10:22am | 14/04/11

      haha @ Tombowler.  Spot On.

    • Tim says:

      10:28am | 14/04/11

      Tombowler,
      you’re free not to wear a seatbelt anytime you want. You might just be fined by the police for doing so.
      You’re free to eat a salmonella laden sandwich anytime you choose to as well.
      Both of those however have been shown to be inherently dangerous to everyone who does them.
      How are pokies also inherently dangerous to everyone that plays them and not just to a select few who can’t control themselves and/or are too stupid to know what they are doing?

    • Richard says:

      11:34am | 14/04/11

      That’s a great comment Tombowler, one of the best.

      As for you Tim, just because pokies present a psychological threat as opposed to a physical threat, does not render that threat any less real and pressing.

    • Joel B1 says:

      11:52am | 14/04/11

      @Tombowler,

      Ahh, the old but still compelling “ya dickhead” argument. That’s convinced me!

      Let me guess, you really, really passionately believe in AGW…

    • Tim says:

      12:41pm | 14/04/11

      Richard,
      poker machines only pose a threat to the minority of people who are susceptible to addiction.
      They are not inherently dangerous to everyone like the other things mentioned by Tombowler.

    • Steve D says:

      12:44pm | 14/04/11

      Eskimo. I can never accept the argument of not tackling a problem because there may be a worse problem that is’nt being tackled. It will probably take generations to tackle alcohol problems but lack os success in tackling alcohol should not preclude us tackling other perhaps simpler problems. I see the same logis applied to illicit drugs. “we shouldn’t do anything about ilicit drugs because alcohol is worse” This debate is about poker machine gambling not alcohol.

    • Richard says:

      08:12am | 14/04/11

      This is a very good article Penbo~ but I think everyone needs to go over to the Drum and read Greg Jericho’s piece about pokies reform: it is an absolute cracker, best debut on an opinion site that I’ve read. (Well, debut as an author anyway, because I know he was very active over there as a commenter for a while last year as “grog’s gamut”.)

    • Seanr says:

      08:18am | 14/04/11

      The term ‘un-Australian’ and the overuse of the word ‘hero’ are two of my pet hates (I have quite a few but these are up near the top). Seriously what does ‘un-Australian’ mean?

    • Bruce says:

      09:01am | 14/04/11

      Seanr: It just means ‘when ever you have no better come back’ or ‘I can not win the arguement’......your ! your ! .....unaustralian…..so there, da !!

    • Ando says:

      03:02pm | 14/04/11

      Seanr,
      Re:hero . Take comfort in the fact that both calling people a hero and complaining about people being called heroes is the media arguing with themselves. No one I know adult or child think their favourite footballer for example is a hero but I remember this point being argued in the media quite often.

    • seanr says:

      07:25pm | 14/04/11

      Agreed Ando

    • Old Bloke says:

      08:20am | 14/04/11

      I dislike pokies for a number of reasons but I also dislike the way do gooders are setting the rules for all of us.  There will always be losers in society and as soon as you find a way to inhibit their behaviour they will find a new outlet.  In the meantime we all carry on with a little less freedom through no fault of our own.

    • Patrick says:

      09:45am | 14/04/11

      You say ‘do gooder’ as though to do good is a bad thing.

    • Gavin says:

      02:30pm | 14/04/11

      No Patrick, a do-gooder is someone who thinks they are helping society by championing oppressed minority groups, when in fact they are ruining society and crippling free speech.

    • Michael M says:

      03:11pm | 14/04/11

      Gavin, I’ll also suggest that it is also someone who knows what is best for everyone else, and devotes their life to shoving it down our throats.

    • grumpy old man says:

      08:20am | 14/04/11

      I just switch off when anyone has “its un Australian ‘as part of their argument. Its a pathetic, emotive and meaningless term that is generally the last resort of those without a substantive argument to support their cause.
      Having said that, I do have some support for the gaming industry. The philosophy behind the govts latest moves with regards to poker machines is something that should cause us concern, not because poker machines are involved, but because its yet another ‘Big Brother ” piece of legislation aimed at curbing individual freedom and eroding further the concept of personal responsibility. It seems that successive govts are hell bent on legislating against all and any risks that an individual may take, and in doing so, creates a society where personal responsibility is diminished to such a degree that everyone becomes a victim and is constantly looking around for someone else to blame when tragedy strikes.

    • Fairsnotfair says:

      11:31am | 14/04/11

      @ GOM - too true! Gillard by any other name - Stalin? Lenin? Marx? - all in the name of being “for the collective good”.

      The fun police are out in force.

      Love your final comment - just perfectly put. No responsibility for our actions but this defies the basic premise of cause and effect. Let’s be honest with ourselves: a good number of persons in our “community” need to eat a teaspoon of concrete….

    • jf says:

      08:21am | 14/04/11

      “The campaign being mounted by the gaming industry is so banal that it may hinder rather than help their cause.”

      I don’t like pokies. I don’t play them and I don’t like going to venues that have them. However, I am less fond of paternalistic public policy telling us what we can and can’t do. And I am liking Nick Xenophon less and less as he increasingly favours paternalism over personal responsibility. 

      I reckon Penbo is right in saying that the “campaign being mounted by the gaming industry is so banal that it may hinder rather than help their cause”.

      It is cringe-worthy, jingoistic stuff.

      Better that they had engaged with the government to come up with a workable solution in a mature, considered way.

    • Joel B1 says:

      08:34am | 14/04/11

      Yet another restriction on your freedom as an Australian.

      Guess that old prison mentality is still around, we’re not safe unless we’re banged up in a cell with Gillard as Head Warden and Wilkie rattling his night-stick along the bars.

    • Ron S says:

      08:39am | 14/04/11

      UN-fortunately, the DSM-IV doesn’t always reflect the opinion of all Psychiatrists. If you replace the word “addiction” with the word “COMPULSION” in all cases where a “substance” is not involved, then you arrive at a truer understanding of the behaviour involved. Even where substances are involved, such as alcohol, heroin or nicotine, the problems begins as a compulsion and may progress to an addiction. The point of all this is that the disorder begins in the mind of the sufferer who indeed may need help in controlling their compulsion. Whether they want and can accept help is another issue.

    • Joel B1 says:

      08:40am | 14/04/11

      I hear Wilkies going after the problem shopper next.

      If you can’t go shopping without buying a new pair of pumps or Jimmies you’ll be next in line to register for a Shoe Card.

      You set a mandatory pre-commitment for footwear and that’s it.

      Social freedom is a thin line and Wilkie’s got YOUR problem in his sights.

    • Jerky says:

      10:20am | 14/04/11

      infantile comment
      spending too much time with little kids lately?
      You ought to get out and spend a bit of time with some adults.

    • Tim says:

      11:25am | 14/04/11

      Actually Jerky I think JoelB1 is pretty spot on.
      There are a lot of people commenting here saying:
      “oh well I don’t play the pokies so it’s OK by me”.
      It’s intellectually lazy and selfish.
      If you don’t think or can’t see that this is another step in curtailing our freedoms then you’re kidding yourself.

    • Joel B1 says:

      12:23pm | 14/04/11

      @ Jerky,

      Yes, thanks, I am spending too much time with the kids of late. Still, their conversation beats some I hear.

    • Lee Enfield says:

      08:46am | 14/04/11

      I don’t play pokies so this won’t affect me, but it bothers me, where will the nanny state stop. Non drinkers didn’t care when the alco pop tax was introduced. Then the non smokers didn’t care when the tobacco tax was increased. Non gamblers don’t care about the new laws for pokies. By everyone not caring about what happens unless it affects them, we have seen more erosion of our rights for our own good, decided by people who are out of touch with reality. We are about to have internet censorship forced upon us, where the sites blacklisted will be kept secret, and the first thing you will know about trying to visit a blacklisted site, is the law comes knocking on your door. But, the attitude is, if you oppose the censor, then you are paedaphile who looks at child porn or support it, despite the fact that the majority of the blacklisted sites will be sites about material the govt thinks we shouldn’t read about.
      Since 2007, Australians have had tax after levy thrust upon us, we have had ban after law forced upon us, but no one gives a shit unless it directly affects them. The net result is that everyone in this country has had some new tax or levy, some new ban or law affect them, but govt has got away with it because they divide the population when they introduce them.
      The only thing un-australian about all of this is the Govt. The Govt should concentrate on running the country, providing infrastructure and services, and let people be responsible for their own life and actions, instead of forcing their morals and religious beliefs, and the beliefs of minority groups on the population, for our own good.

    • Ryan says:

      09:38am | 14/04/11

      @Lee Enfield: It is the blatant apathy from the average Australian that the Labor / Greens / GetUp / Communist alliance survives off.

    • St. Michael says:

      12:23pm | 14/04/11

      @ Lee Enfield: If you don’t play the pokies, how are you able to comment on it?

      Be consistent, mate.

    • Lee Enfield says:

      12:51pm | 14/04/11

      St Michael: Wow what an argument. By your logic, you should stop making comments about the Military. You weren’t taped by the cadet having sex, yet you comment on it. You have never served in the ADF, yet you comment on it.
      I guess it is too hard for you to understand, I am not looking at it from the point of view of a pokie player.  I am looking at it from the point of view that this is a further encroachment by the govt on our right to make our own choices and the Govt interferring in our lives by telling us what is good for us.

      P.S
      Your effort about Major General Alexander Godley was a cracker, all your information was wrong. I suggest you take your own advice and do some wider reading, actually retract that, just do some reading.
      Using your wonderful logic, unless you were at the Nek in 1915, you shouldn’t comment on it.
      Come on mate, be consistent

    • jf says:

      01:01pm | 14/04/11

      “St. Michael says”

      He wasn’t commenting on pokies. He was commenting on erosion of personal liberties through excessive regulation.

    • Rosie says:

      08:50am | 14/04/11

      No David I am you are we are Australians and we live in a society with such things as freedom of choice and responsibility for one’s livelihood.

      It is un-Australian when any Govt interfers with our civil rights because it undermines the freedom of choice. It also essentially destroys the very definition of what it means to be an Australian living in a democracy.

      David I am very disappointed with you because the last time I looked it was legal to play the pokies in this great land. Wilkie is a self serving prima donna showing off the power he attained by backing Gillard the liar and has Gillard bound to his whims.

      Yes it is very un- Australian to turn your back on desperate pokie addicts, alcoholics, heavy smookers, those that cannot control their over eating, the abused children of our indigenous and the list goes on. We have a Govt that should find a solution to these problems without punishing other Australians that are capable of taking care of their well being.

      To change addicts to do what is right for them, it has to come from the heart, no amount of advertising from gambling companies, tobacco companies etc will do it for them!

    • Sue Pinkerton says:

      03:46pm | 20/04/11

      Absolutely no-one involved in the reform is planning on stopping people from playing the pokies! As they are legal now, they will be legal once the reforms pass into law. As you have to sign in - or sign up - to play the pokies in any NSW club, you will simply have to have a card to be able to put money into a poker machine once the reforms come in. They are not going to be made illegal. You won’t be forced to set a limit before you play. You will be OFFERED the opportunity to set a limit when you put your card into a machine. If you so choose you can say no! If you choose to set a limit, you will be prevented from playing for the rest of the day once you have spent the amount you set plus anything you happen to win while playing.
      Read the agreement Wilkie has with Gliiard and you will see that the gambling industry is manipulating public opinion through exaggeration and the use of emotive mis-information!

    • Tim says:

      08:52am | 14/04/11

      What a load Penbo,
      this IS going to lead to a licence to punt.
      They want you to register, they want you to pre-commit, they want to set limits.
      At this stage it’s only pokies but to think that the anti-gambling campaigners will stop there is silly. They won’t stop til all gambling is banned.
      The same way smoking is going and the same way alcohol is already next on the hit list.
      We should ensure that all problem gamblers can get the help they need but all this does is punish everyone for the stupidity of the few
      Why does every law we make have to pander to the lowest common denominator?

    • Audra Blue says:

      03:21pm | 14/04/11

      Tim, I don’t think you need to worry about the license to punt.  The gaming industry will never alllow their profits to be eroded.

      The same thing happened when Hawkie wanted to introduct an Australia Card.  The backlash was deafening. End result - no Australia Card, not even so much as a whisper about an Australia Card. 

      It’s a storm in a tea cup.  This too shall pass.

    • Thirsty says:

      08:53am | 14/04/11

      There are misconceptions out there that problem gamblers will move from pokies to other forms, such as keno etc….simply not true in practice. I dont need a $100,000 study for me to know this, its just common sense. Pokie addicts are addicted to pokies, not gambling per se. “Real” problem gamblers bet on anything, pokie addicts are a completely different kettle of fish
      As someone involved in small clubs, I feel for these places that have 10 or fewer machines, they really do rely on the money raised by these pokies to survive…if fact, many small clubs this size are failing
      However, larger clubs may have to curb their need to renovate every 2 years, or as Bob Carr said 6 years ago when he brought in the pokies tax, maybe big clubs wont be able to have a fountain in every foyer…
      Bigger clubs are claiming that they wont be able to support community needs if these reforms come in, maybe, just maybe, if people arent losing thousands of dollars on the bloody pokies, they could put this money back into the community themselves…just a thought

    • thatmosis says:

      08:55am | 14/04/11

      Another nail in the coffin of our freedomes to protect the idiots from themselves whilst the rest of us pay the price. I sick and tired of Governments making rules to protect the idiots in our country whilst the people who arent effected pay the price. If your stupid enough to lose all your money to a machine then its your problem not mine so why should I be punished for your lack of self management. Its like pool fences, an unwanted and expensive thing that takes away the parents necessity to look after their own children. This nanny state has got to stop. We have ANZAC Day coming up where we remember those people that fought and died for our freedom only for us to see the Governments taking it away from us in ever increasing ways and what makes this so onerous is that its just one person who happens to hold the Government to ransome that is causing this latest attack on our freedom to happen, a man who sold out his own voters for a chance at power and we are supposed to thank him, well thanks for nothing clown.

    • John Smythe says:

      09:01am | 14/04/11

      Although I recognise there are people with true issues out there, I’m not sure about “un-Australian”, but I think it’s becoming a sad sad reality (couldn’t resist using that SSR) that it is very “Australian” to no longer take responsibility for yourself, and where possible at all times, make your issues someone else’s problem.

    • Greta Davis says:

      09:04am | 14/04/11

      We are not babies and the stupid Labor Govt and Wilkie should stop trying to control everything we do.  I don’t play Poker Machines and know that some are addicted.  Many places will have to close down if the REDS !!! go along with Wilkie!!!!  Heaps of people like to go to a club for a drink of maybe even a meal but that will stop if Wilkie gets his way.  It is like Nanny Roxon and the latest cigarette issue.  If Nanny feels so bad about smoking!!! why??? doesn’t she just take them off the market.  Many places will go to the wall if all of this comes in.

    • Chris L says:

      09:05am | 14/04/11

      I can see why the gaming industry thought this approach would work. It certainly worked for those struggling billionaires in the mining industry. Just make some threat about jobs being lost and repeat the word “unaustralian” often enough and people will just bend to your will.

    • Joel B1 says:

      09:07am | 14/04/11

      Funny… a “mandatory pre-commitment” on a national Register isn’t a “licence” but The Greens not preferencing Hanson is the Greens preferencing Hanson.

      Funny that.

    • MarK says:

      09:19am | 14/04/11

      “.....that a carefully-considered package of reforms aimed at helping problem gamblers is “un-Australian.”


      errr no.

      It is a package that Wilke has demanded government ram through and thus it must or lose his support.

      But for Wilkie this would not be on the agenda.

      Gillard is being made to do it. Don’t sugar coat it. Labor is helping problem gamblers to cling to “power” such that it is.

    • Lenny says:

      10:16am | 14/04/11

      If Gillard supports it and the Independents don’t there’s nothing she can do about it and on those grounds he will not drop his support for her. She knows this so does he and so do the independents.

    • MarK says:

      11:16am | 14/04/11

      No Lenny it is non negotiable. Wilkie said so.

      Interesting times ahead….far ahead of course. Wilkie wants the full term.

    • Anne says:

      12:10pm | 14/04/11

      Interesting. how can she promise something when it may not be possible?

    • MarK says:

      01:39pm | 14/04/11

      What do you mean Anne?

      Like never having a carbon tax under a government she leads?

    • Justin says:

      09:23am | 14/04/11

      I think it’s un-Australian for the government to stop problem gamblers from subsidizing my Thursday night beers at the club.

    • Alex says:

      09:23am | 14/04/11

      Definition of a conservative:  “You shouldn’t do that”.
      Definition of a progressive: “You are not allowed to do that”.

      “Progressives” are the new Puritans of our age.  The original Puritans banned bear-baiting not because of the harm it was doing to the bear but because it gave enjoyment to the masses.

    • LeonT says:

      10:39am | 14/04/11

      Abortion? Gay marriage?

      Conservatives like banning things too.

    • Rocket Surgeon says:

      11:51am | 14/04/11

      Definition of a conservative - someone who believes anything done by a Labor government is wrong just because.

      Understand the mechanism. It is opt in. Gamblers can choose their own daily limit, but do so away from the buzz of the pokies.

      It’s very similar to the cigarette packaging. There is no restriction on the smoker, just on the way the tobacco company can package the cigarettes. But the conservatives are carrying on like the government is infringing the rights of the smoker.

      What astounds me is both this misrepresentation and the unwillingness to embrace market mechanisms when the market is the holy grail.

    • jf says:

      01:07pm | 14/04/11

      LeonT says:10:39am | 14/04/11

      There is a big difference between banning and not allowing.

    • Ryan says:

      09:28am | 14/04/11

      What is unAustralian is prostituting yourself, your beliefs and your country to the whim of a political sycophant for your own selfish reason of clinging to power

    • Didier says:

      10:22am | 14/04/11

      Abbott to a tee.

    • Ryan says:

      12:21pm | 14/04/11

      @Didier: really, when? I see Gillard doing this all the time.

    • Elphaba says:

      09:33am | 14/04/11

      I don’t like the term unAustralian either. It’s as bad as people who use ‘real’ to describe overweight women.

      Gambling is a bit like smoking, I guess.  Things would probably be better without it, but how are you going to stop people doing it?  Once again, the government makes a lot of money from pokies, which will stop them banning them all together, so their ‘concern’ doesn’t exactly wash with me.

      With the government telling us how much we can drink, smoke, eat and look at on the internet, and introducing things like a carbon tax that many Australian’s don’t support, the message about gambling is going to be lost.  People will turn off, citing ‘Oh look, another thing the governement is trying to stop me doing.’  They need to be focusing on the serious things, like hospitals and schools.  If people want to destroy themselves, maybe it’s just time we accepted that it’s a part of the human condition.

      Damnit, I used to be more optimistic… before the weight of the world crushed my spirit…

    • Tim says:

      10:13am | 14/04/11

      Elphaba,
      Broadly agree with your comment but there is a massive difference between gambling and smoking.
      Most people can safely gamble without any problems to them or the families, whereas the same can’t be said about smoking which is inherently dangerous.

    • Elphaba says:

      11:03am | 14/04/11

      @Tim, but what if the problem gambler gambles the rent and grocery money?  That then has a direct effect on people relying on that money, like partners and children.

      But yes, smoking is more directly dangerous to one’s health.  The point is that the government is on a warpath to curb people doing anything that may be perceived as dangerous to one’s health and livelihood - without actually stopping it because they make so much money of it.

    • Richard says:

      09:45am | 14/04/11

      This is one instance where I don’t think a person’s liberty is being impinged if they are asked to nominate a set limit before they begin gambling. They still have the free choice to choose what they will gamble, all they are being asked to do is decide while they are still in a sound state of mind, instead of being sucked into the deepest frenzy of addiction and then being lured into handing over more and more of their money in the heat of the moment that they would have never have gambled with if they were in a cold and rational frame of mind.

    • AdamC says:

      09:50am | 14/04/11

      Er, sorry Penbo, you’re not helping problem gamblers. Addicts are not goig to be foiled by the measures proposed, but they may well deter casual gamblers. That is actually the intention. Anti-pokies zealots like Wilkie and Xenophon want to see the industry shut down. And by discouraging ordinary punters from frequenting the local pub/club, they hope to eventually make the business unviable.

      This strategy is supported by woefully uncritical media coverage and many people’s (like mine) instinctive snobbery about poker machine gambling.

    • Hamish says:

      10:09am | 14/04/11

      AdamC, you’re exactly right. This is purely intended to make it inconvenient enough for casual gamblers that they won’t bother. Without the casual gamblers clubs and hotels that rely on poker machine revenues will have to shut down. Of course, actual gambling addicts will take about 30 seconds to figure out ways around such impediments.

    • AdamC says:

      10:18am | 14/04/11

      Exactly. You would have to be an idiot (or a journalist) not to understand this. It’s barely even a secret.

    • Economist says:

      10:50am | 14/04/11

      Cmon Adam you can do better than this. The same industry cried foul when smokers were forced outside, yet it hasn’t harmed their business model, in many case their business improved.

      Secondly, the details of the proposals have no been announced, so you can’t say it’s to deter casual users. I look at my local club who have undertaken three major renovations in the last 10 years and almost doubled the number of poker machines. They barely invest 10% of profits into small community sport events. The executive salaries have trebled over the same time, yet they’ve cut back on staff as everything is automated in the pokie part and they’ve centralised the bar and outsourced the restaurants, so much for saving jobs HEE???

      Those that run the local club, in this case a union are simply lining their own pockets.

    • HappyCynic says:

      11:17am | 14/04/11

      Any responsible person who wants a punt (whether it’s the pokies or a hand of blackjack) should already have a limit in their head before stepping up to the table.  I know I do.  I never gamble unless it’s with money that I’m prepared to lose.  I am an ordinary punter and I think these cards have all sorts of potential to make gambling a lot easier for the average punter.

      We don’t yet know exactly how the pubs and clubs will distribute these prepaid cards, personally I think if it’s done correctly a prepaid card could store your winnings on it as well as your original outlay.  Bookies or cashiers could then just swipe the card and pay out based on what’s left, far better than reading through scraps of paper.  Casinos could do away with chips and instead have some sort of scanner and touchscreen at each player’s seat on blackjack or poker tables that allows each person to swipe then select his bet with the amount showing up on the other players screens, dealers would then debit the winnner’s card each hand taking his cut of the pot automatically (removes human error this way as well).  The advantages could also translate well in horseracing, greyhound racing and more.

      This card could actually be useful and make betting a more streamlined affair allowing casinos to shuffle losing players off their chairs quicker etc.

      Mind you I’m looking at this from a card players perspective, I don’t play pokies, they’re for suckers.

    • Tim says:

      11:30am | 14/04/11

      Economist,
      all the reasons you list are great reasons why the clubs should be forced to reinvest more of the money they make back into the community and become more accountable to the public.
      However, those same reasons don’t support the actual provisions that have been suggested at all.

    • AdamC says:

      02:06pm | 14/04/11

      I think I am doing fine, Economist. You have let your zealotry on this issue bubble out of control.

      While we don’t have the details of the proposals, we know the sorts of policy tools that will be used. I stand by my view that these will not stop problem gamblers, but rather deter casual gamblers. I don’t believe the smoking issue is equivalent, as smokers have become quite used to going outside for a cigarette.

      The rest of your comment seems to be a rant about your local club. Down here in Melbourne, we don’t have the same culture of leagues clubs, etc, but we do have pokies venues splattered across the landscape. I don’t visit them - they’re nasty. But I don’t have a problem with them existing and offering a service. Even if they are ‘lining their own pockets’. That, after all, is what a business is supposed to do.

      And is there some Godwin’s equivalent for lefties bringing up executive salaries? Why does everything come back to that?

    • Economist says:

      09:22pm | 14/04/11

      I love it, zealotry? clearly you don’t know what the word means. So I’ll spell that out for you I am not a fanatic nor do I want to shut down intelligent discussion from the opposite side. Nor do I want to shut down the industry I’ve made that point very clear previously,  but clearly the other side aren’t intelligent so I’m wasting my time. Clearly my argument went over your head. Your argument was clubs would be unviable. My argument was they cried wolf with smoking and it didn’t ruin them, so why would some reform of gaming not be the same.  Pretty obvious, but clearly my expectations are to high . Furthermore the industry are claiming they’ll lose jobs etc, yet I demonstrated that it’s already moving towards automation and reducing wages bills.  The servicing of hundred of poker machines requires few staff. As for salaries, they are supposedly non-profit organisations yet boards have dramticially increased their remuneration on the back of poker machines. No intelligent person cares about what an executive or board member is paid where they clearly demonstrate geniune productivity and positive contributions, but the fu***ards that run these clubs demonstrate none of these qualities.

      I also need to thank Richard for highlighting what is a fantastic article by Greg Jericho.

    • DON says:

      09:53am | 14/04/11

      YOU LOOK MORE LIKE A WOG TO ME

    • Samson says:

      09:58am | 14/04/11

      What I find most offensive about this whole sorry situation is the description of playing poker machines as a form of ‘gaming’.  It’s the absolute worst game I’ve ever played!  All you do is press ONE BUTTON!  You get to see some pretty lights for a while, and then you lose.

      Surely the best way to help these ‘gaming’ addicts would be to get them an Xbox live subscription.  Call of Duty is so much better than Queen of the Nile, and the money they spend is already capped at $15 a month!  It might take a while to get the oldies up to speed in the deathmatches, but I can’t imagine anyone going back to playing poker machines once they see what else is out there.

    • TEZ says:

      10:01am | 14/04/11

      Spot on Pembo!!!!!!

    • jag says:

      10:02am | 14/04/11

      On one hand I’m happy for pokie players to subsidise my beers and cheap meals.

      On the other, if we ban pokies completely then maybe the live music scene will pick up again.

      I prefer the latter.

    • Lexi says:

      10:23am | 14/04/11

      Ooh, hadn’t thought of that jag - how awesome would that be?! Here in the country, live music is non-existant :(

    • Kayte says:

      10:12am | 14/04/11

      In WA pokies are illegal and have been for a very long time. - except in the Casino, where even those ones are “different” from the ones in the eastern states.  I hope these national reforms don’t mean that the current WA government bring pokies back.  When I see people at the pokies, by themselves, at crazy times of the day, going so out of their way to get to the casino, It really makes me sad.  Pokies are a boring waste of time, you wouldn’t use them for more than five minutes unless you were addicted.  They need to go….  100% go.  It is completely unAustralian to not stop in and help a mate.  This is the majority of Australia standing up and being a good mate to the minority.

    • Grafik says:

      04:02pm | 14/04/11

      True Kayte and to others guess what, our pubs and clubs actually survive without pokies, they probably dont make as much as the pubs on other states but they work and are profitable.

      As for Un- Australian, pubs have been in Australia for over 200 years and they survived, pokies have been around in pubs about 20 and have killed off most pubs or will, now thats Un-Australian

    • The Shag says:

      10:13am | 14/04/11

      Penbo by your logic then, is it Australian to limit the rights and legal social activities of the population in an attempt to protect a small minority? Is this really the sort of Australia you want?

      I would have thought the Australian thing to do would be help the ones that need it, and leave the rest to themselves.

      Thank heavens we have Julia and Andrew to save us from ourselves!

    • Matt says:

      10:18am | 14/04/11

      This Labor government has inherited the wowser mantle from the methodists of 100 years ago. The cloying paternalism of the Labor new class towards the authentic working class is nauseating. Be it alcopops, fatty foods, tobacco and now the punt, (oooh, and those evil McMansions) the cafe set seem to feel some sort of noblesse oblige to “save” the working class from themselves.

      The taxing, regulating and prohibiting of the simple pleasures of the man (or woman) in the street is for their own good, don’t you know ...

      I say, bugger off and mind your own business.

    • St. Michael says:

      12:09pm | 14/04/11

      Given gambling is one of the root causes of crime which affects the entire community, it actually is minding their own business.

    • Paul says:

      10:24am | 14/04/11

      Freedom of choice v freedom of access? Could be an interesting argument. Poker machines are only a small part of the problem.

    • The Badger says:

      10:26am | 14/04/11

      Anybody know what Dr. NO’s position on this pokie reform is?

    • CD says:

      10:28am | 14/04/11

      So Penbo regale us something you thoroughly enjoy doing. Let’s see…how about dinner out with your ladyfriend? How’s your weight and health by the way? See I’m kind if fanatical about what goes into my body. Ok not really but bear with me.

      Now I don’t think I would agree with all the fats and sugars and nasty extras that goes into good quality restaurant grub or low quality takeaway rubbish so I want to put forward a card. This card has all your health details so any foodie must check it before you can select your meal.

      Then again I don’t care if you are perfectly healthy all those fats and sugars and added extras are just not as good for you as home grown vegies and freshly slaughtered backyard meat.

      So as an Independent representing my own ideas I will put this motion forward and demand it be part of my agreement to let a minority govt get into power and stay there. After all it really will benefit a lot of fat unhealthy people even if it takes your rights away as a moderate person.

      Get the picture now Penbo? I’d say that was pretty ‘unAustralian’ frankly.

    • Matt says:

      10:30am | 14/04/11

      By the logic of some folk on here, we should scrap speed limits, let people smoke inside restaurants and bars again, allow people not to wear seat belts and so forth.

      Oh, and let’s bring back guns. Heaps of guns. FREEDOM AND LIBERTY FOR ALL.

      Addressing areas like heart disease, obesity, cancer and problem gambling in as early stages as possible will not only create a more productive society (more tax revenue), but hopefully reduce the overall need for us to invest billions and billions into expensive interventions down the track.

      I’m all for personal responsibility, but pokies are a significant problem that has gone without criticism or regulation for far too long. The problem is partially addiction, but that leads to starving families, relationship breakdown, kids not being looked after and more pressure on the welfare system.

      It’s a fine balance.

    • Dan says:

      10:40am | 14/04/11

      Blow-up the pokies.
      Bring back live music (or some form of entertainment) and meat raffles.

    • Semi Concerned Citizen says:

      10:43am | 14/04/11

      Hi the Punch moderators,

      What leads to non offensive non swearing posts not being posted? Thanks . I tried to be positive here

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      10:50am | 14/04/11

      Seems to be the rage these days- don’t like a government policy, advertise against it. Right or wrong, it is the government’s job to legislate on these matters. If a corporation doesn’t like it, they can piss off to another country….

    • Strawb says:

      10:50am | 14/04/11

      Surely there’s a better solution than this. Maybe more responsibility in the hands of the individual clubs. Problem gamblers need help, as it also affects their families etc. What’s going to happen to sponsorship of Sporting Clubs etc?

    • Zaf says:

      11:00am | 14/04/11

      [If being Australian means turning your back on desperate addicts in the name of multi-billion-dollar profits]

      That is actually consistent with our Govt’s position on alcohol and tobacco taxes.  Our budgets are balanced on the backs of addictions.

    • B J of Sydney says:

      11:02am | 14/04/11

      Say I have a $20 limit and I put $20.00 in the poker machine and before it is all gone I win $100.00.  Technically I now have $80 to play with and lose if I choose.  Can I drop out my $100 and move to another machine or do I take my winnings and go home because I have used my $20 limit.  If I remain at the winning machine can I stay and play on and blow my winnings.  Are the machines registering the money fed into them or are they registering what is being lost on the coin counter?  Some people like to increase their betting amount when they know they are playing with “winnings” as they have nothing to lose.  Just how will this scheme be monitored? 
      Mr. Wilkie obviously has no axe to grind when it comes to horse racing and on-line betting.  Why is that I wonder?

    • Sue Pinkerton says:

      04:03pm | 20/04/11

      B J of Sydney, according to my understanding of the proposed system, if you set a $20 limit for the day, then you can spend $20 PLUS anything you win along the way. The example set out below are only theory at this stage as the Poker machine reform bill has yet to be drafted, let alone debated, ammended passed or rejected by our federal parliament.

      My example…if you set a $20 limit and then win $100.00 with your first bet of the night, then technically you should have $120 minus the cost of your first bet to spend.

      IF you set a $20 limit and win $100 with the last 25cents of your limit, then you would still have $100 to play with.

      Once your net losses reach $20 for the day (i.e. once you are $20 out of pocket), then you will be prevented from putting any money into any machine in Australia for the rest of that day. If you decide to play again tomorrow, you will be able to - and you will once again be offered the opportunity to set a new limit or to keep the previous limit you set.

    • JR says:

      11:04am | 14/04/11

      It is un australian to be sick. Those people who stare at a screen and push buttons while watching their money get lost - are sick.

      They need help.

    • JT says:

      11:08am | 14/04/11

      As the old saying goes, scratch a lefty, find a fascist. No surprise Penbo turns out to be one. The argument against this is simple, and yes it is about the bottom line. Revenue derived from poker machines subsidises the services clubs provide to the community.

      However, what is rightly unAustralian about this is the part where ‘‘our’’ government and student journalists such as Penbo dictate to us how we live our lives. Here’s a clue for you brain-dead fascists, STFU and get the hell out of how I live my life.

      If I wish to take my legally earned, paid ungodly amounts of tax on income and flush it all down the poker machine, that is my right for as long as gambling in this country is legal. It is not the place for a desperate to hang onto power Prime minister and some fool from Tassie to dictate to me limits on my poker machine usage.

      It is this creeping nanny state control promoted by Labor and supported by so called journalists which rightly infuriates me and no doubt many Australians.

      As for problem gamblers, where there’s a will, there’s a way so you have to be pretty bloody stupid to think any controls will make a difference to them.

    • The Civet says:

      02:13pm | 15/04/11

      Resorting to the ‘Nanny State’ cliché is the most appalling cop out. Also you are wildly inaccurate with your political statement. Fascism is the extension of fundamentalist, right-wing government, NOT the left wing. Do you have a dictionary/Thesaurus? Then get one, and use it.

      You don’t really care about the gambling issue at all. You have used it as a pretext to slam the government. And, as far as I’m concerned, I hope you do walk into a gambling casino. The thought of you being skint by gambling industry is quite delicious.

    • Harquebus says:

      11:10am | 14/04/11

      Calling someone Un-Australian is Un-Australian. If a club can not survive without pokies which, are a curse on society then, bye bye.

    • Witchdoctor says:

      11:14am | 14/04/11

      Interesting - as a journalist, you seem so worried about a term ‘un-Australian’, that you have totally avoided discussing major issues such as political deals on the federal level, which are interferring with Constitutional rights held by every State of Australia; gambling in all forms including internet (international) gambling, privacy concerns of registration. 

      There are many, many, MANY important issues that are involved with the whole idea of pre-committment, and you managed to just about the miss the point on every one of them.

    • Craig says:

      11:19am | 14/04/11

      I live in the middle-outer burbs of Melbourne and if this forces some of those god awful beer barns to go broke… I’ll be very happy… Need to some decent pubs!

    • Tom says:

      11:47am | 14/04/11

      The only thing that IS Australian is to declare everything Un-Australian.

    • Lee Enfield says:

      11:50am | 14/04/11

      Casinos will be exempt. So the only ones hurt by these measures are the local pubs and clubs, whilst the Casinos are left untouched.

    • Janey says:

      11:51am | 14/04/11

      It is sad people are addicted to pokie machines but no sadder than a junkie shooting up daily.
      Educate your kids about gambling ; teach them the maths so they can see the futility for themselves.

    • Polywatcher says:

      12:06pm | 14/04/11

      Beware Clubs Australia, Ju-Liar is heading your way clutching in her hand a hammer and sickle. The hammer to bash over the heads of the tall poppy’s and a sickle to cut you off at the ankles. She is ably supported by Dr Bob and Wilkie.  This is yet another example of a Nanny State.

    • Michael Larkin says:

      12:19pm | 14/04/11

      People have raised valid objections here to the proposed changes to gambling. But thats the point of the article, not that there are valid arguments against these changes, but that the pubs and clubs haven’t trotted any out and so have gone for the unAustralian angle.

    • Bruno says:

      12:40pm | 14/04/11

      I have more respect for drug dealers than pokie pushers. At least it takes guts and guile to devastate lives illegally

    • Steve D says:

      12:53pm | 14/04/11

      If the proposed legislation is successful what are the state governments budget plans to replace the gambling tax revenue? A state like WA which only has pokies in the 1 casino wants a greater share of its GST not less to replace the loss of gambling tax. Lets stop problem gambling by all means if we can but we need to prepare for success from a tax point of view.

    • Lukew says:

      12:54pm | 14/04/11

      We haven’t lived up to the ideal we think is representative of being Australian for years and each year we mover further away.

    • Rover of North Cooma says:

      12:55pm | 14/04/11

      Here’s something to cheer up all the conservatives who think this is evil, nanny state behaviour from Labor - if this goes ahead and the clubs go to the wall, it will hurt Labor in the ACT because they get a motza from the licensed clubs they own here every year.

    • Kika says:

      02:35pm | 14/04/11

      Likewise if the libs were in they’d lose the money too. It’s federal tax, not just a labor tax!

    • SM says:

      01:05pm | 14/04/11

      A few years ago I developed a gambling problem whilst living Brisbane, and eventually had myself self excluded from the Treasury Casino, which is the only casino in Brisbane.  Part of the process involved having my photograph taken by countless cameras within the venue, and at every entry point.  It was explained to me by the casino at the time that if I was to enter the casino for any reason I would be committing an offence.

      My good intentions did not last long, and within one week I was back at the casino.  Over the next 2 years, before I left Brisbane, I’d estimate that I attended the casino between 200 and 300 times.  Lots of those times where at 5 or 6 in the morning, when I was perhaps one of only 20 or so people in the entire joint.  On occasions after losing my money, I would be the only person sitting in the entire bar area.  I never made any attempt to disguise my appearance or gain entry on the sly.

      No-one from the casino ever approached me

    • JT says:

      01:18pm | 14/04/11

      So? Here’s an idea, take responsibility for your own actions.

    • SM says:

      02:26pm | 14/04/11

      @JT

      I did take responsibility for my actions and continue to do so, and I’m not seeking to blame the casino for my losses.  I paid the price, as I should.

      I’m simply suggesting the no-one should be fooled by any claims from gambling proprietors that they care about helping problem gamblers in the slightest

    • Kika says:

      02:26pm | 14/04/11

      Don’t you love Bris-Vegas. Hey if you wanted, you could have taken a drive down to Jupiters at the GC! Or driven down to Greenbank RSL. That place is a Treasury on it’s own!

      No one would have cared at the Casino because you’re throwing money at them! haha. Duty of care? Nah! You’re paying all their wages. Maybe we should adopt a aystem of making sure no one is sitting in the pokie room longer than an hour max. Like bartenders telling people that they’ve had enough to drink… can you imagine the fights??! haha.

    • Tim says:

      03:03pm | 14/04/11

      SM,
      that’s simply a compliance issue.
      Any gambling venue that fails a self excluded problem gambler should be punished severely.

    • Venise Alstergren says:

      02:01pm | 15/04/11

      As someone who has never had the gambling urge, could you please explain to me exactly what it is that drives people to do this?  I’ve heard gamblers say they got their pokie fix because they were lonely and met other people at the pub/casino, whatever.

      I understand problem gamblers saying ““I just don’t think it’s going to happen to me””  Which I don’t think I can buy. What is the defining moment when a compulsive gambler decides to go into the pub he was about to walk past.

      As someone who is mad about horses I relate to show jumpers saying “I just throw my heart over the jump, and hope the horse will follow (I’m not talking about jumps racing, which is anathema to me). Does the gambler feel like that perhaps?

      Sorry to take up your time, but I am really interested.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      01:26pm | 14/04/11

      I’m absolutely pissed that I didn’t register Its-Unaustralian.com domain name. I could have made a fortune renting it out to the companies and organizations wanting to use it.

    • Kika says:

      01:36pm | 14/04/11

      And the Nanny state continues…
      What is WITH this country? Why do we have to police an individual to make sure they are and aren’t doing the right thing? And if they aren’t, we’ll just ban it to stop them.
      I hate pokies. Don’t play them and never will. I understand all the associated social ill when it comes to pokie addiction as 2 people close to me had pokie addictions. One close friendship was broken because one of them refused to socialise away from the gaming room, the other was spending more money than he was earning and couldn’t afford things for his kids.

      However I don’t agree with ‘banning them’. I believe Australia is a free capitalist democracy where we are free to choose how we want to live. And part of that is the freedom to suck down as many cigarettes, alcopops and throwing as many coins into a poker machine as you like. That’s their choice! It’s an addiction like anything else and should be treated as so.

      What’s the difference between a pokie addiction and an addiction to the horse racing season? I know… THE DEMOGRAPHICS!! It’s mostly not the elite sitting in the Greenbank RSL or the Penrith Footy Club is it? It’s the lower income people who will do anything to see if they can get up on the pokies again.

      And I tell you what… it won’t get banned because money talks. Money for the publicans, money for the pokie mafia and tax money for the government. Just like the mining tax, it won’t work because again our capitalist democracy is driven on profit, not social welfare.

    • Max Redlands says:

      02:04pm | 14/04/11

      I agree that using the term un-Australian is generally a sign the speaker is running out of arguments.

      Having said that, whenever I see people drinking Corona’s with a slice of lemon in them I think to myself : nothing says un-Australian like putting fruit into your beer. (If I knew how to put up a smiley face emoticon I’d put one here to indicate what i said is some-what tounge in cheek.)

    • Kika says:

      02:19pm | 14/04/11

      Considering it’s only done in Mexico to keep flies from landing in the beer. It’s not supposed to flavour the beer! haha.

    • Max Redlands says:

      02:24pm | 14/04/11

      Of course that should be Coronas not Corona’s.

    • jf says:

      04:30pm | 14/04/11

      “Considering it’s only done in Mexico to keep flies from landing in the beer. It’s not supposed to flavour the beer! haha.”

      Really? I never knew that. I just did it because that’s how the Mexicans drink it. No wonder those pre-flavoured beers are so farking bad.

    • Aussie Wazza says:

      02:06pm | 14/04/11

      Now I’ve got to egslane proper to you. Like I think you don’t unnerstan.
      Mosr poker machine players are little low income or pensioners the couldn’t afford to gamble on horses or at the tables. That sot of gambling is too expensive.

      No, poker machines are very cheap to play; like five cents a game. This is so cheap you can play up to 20 games at a time and because it’s only 5 cents you topup a bit and play up to 20 x 5 cents each pull. So it’s ideal for the little people.

      Now you don’t have to play this many,. Just when you ‘feel’  a win is eminent you can lift the stakes.

      And being cheap its a better entertainment than the movies where it costs around $10 to get in. And all those pretty lights and encouraging noises are wonderful and take your mind of everything else. So you don’t sit around worrying how to pay the rent or power bills. Worrying can kill you.

      Some machines give you FREE games for just lining up the same picture and you will ALWAYS get these if you play long enough.

      I know some people loose a bit of money but WHAT ABOUT THE WINNERS? A lady just a few machines away from a friend of mine won almost $500 a few weeks ago and that kept her going on a 10 cent machine where she could have won a $5,000 jackpot, most of the following weekend.

      Can’t go on; Its club opening time in an hour and as I am a poor person I can’t afford a car, so must walk there and I want to get machine 345 as I recon its about to pay out.

      Wish me luck.

    • Seth Brundle says:

      02:22pm | 14/04/11

      “we wouldn’t have to endure people rabbitting on about how un-Belgian, un-Mexican or un-Ugandan things had become”
      have you been to these places?  Do you speak their languages?  I think if you did you would find that they also have similar phrases.  You identified “un-american” but are you telling me you have never heard of “un-British”?  So thats Australia, America and England covered, which are most of the people whose language you actually DO speak.
      As for pokie addicts, the addicts are the minority.  Are we going to legislate against the entire population for the sake of a small minority?  Sure, they may be screwing up their lives but there are plenty of other ways for all of us to screw up our lives, are you going to likewise legislate against all of those?  How about we just treat adults as adults and let them make their own decisions, good or bad.

    • Robert S McCormick says:

      02:25pm | 14/04/11

      David, yes I agree that Gambling Addiction is a problem for some…BUT.. what about people standing up & taking full respnsibility for their own actions? Gambling addicts seem to have adopted the total “Nanny State” approach to everything. They, of course are not reponsible for what they do. The State is. Therefore the State, read other responsible Taxpayers, must take full responsibility whilst these addicts go on their merry way, with the collusion of both the gambling dens, State & Territory Governments, pouring their money into those damned machines.
      Maybe, since these poor, pathetic morons are so totally incapable of controlling their habits the Federal ^& State Governments should really take over their lives & control of the money they get - much of it, we are told, is supplied by Centrelink, give them a $20 Cash Card to be spent on anything they want & another Cash Card which can only be spent on Food. Their rent & utilities bills could be automatically deducted so that the Food Cash Card gave them just the money for food.The withdrawal of cash on that card at supermarkets etc. would be denied. A bit like a Public Trustee any build=up of cash could only be accessed to buy genuinely needed things such as washing machines, fridges.
      Isn’t this exactly what the Feds & NT Governments already do with the money paid to the Indigeneous population?
      If it’s good enough for them it is good enough for the rest of society. It would, of course, be Voluntary-with-a-catch. If someone with a problem won’t agree to the limitations then they lose their pensions.
      The Nanny State will manage everything for them. It’s what they expect, isn’t it?

    • Terry Wright says:

      02:45pm | 14/04/11

      It seems that readers here from both sides of politics generally agree on one issue - making us a nanny state is not what we want. That is the number one issue. The government and opposition should abide by the people’s wishes and keep the f*** out of our lives.

      That being said, freedom also comes with responsibility. To have the freedom to do what we want, we need to be responsible for our actions. BUT, being in an advanced society that has the ability to allow this freedom to operate, we also must accept that there are side effects due to human nature or the type of activity e.g. addiction, potential injury, losing money etc. These side effects are not usually because people are “weak” or have “addictive personalities” but due to physical conditions we are born with e.g. chemicals imbalance in the brain, genes, neurological disorders etc. There are also possible effects from a problematic environment or troubled childhood to consider.

      The point is, if we want the freedom to do what we want, we must also accept that some will have problems. These problems are not character flaws that can be fixed by “personal responsibility” but are actual medical conditions. This is just science 101. If we are deemed intelligent enough to be given the freedom to do what we want then we should be intelligent enough to accept this.

      Some activities may be dangerous or addictive but only affect a small group. As long as we accept this fact and build in support mechanisms, then the activity can be enjoyed by the bulk of those who participate. There should always be enough taxes/fees on the activity to fully fund the support mechanisms before government uses the income elsewhere.

      If regulated and managed properly, victimless, non-violent activities like drugs, alcohol, tobacco, gambling, prostitution, pornography, video games and even mountain climbing won’t hurt anyone except those participating. Why should the government (or anyone else) decide what is acceptable, what should have restrictions or what should be banned? If we have leaned anything through history, it’s that trying to stop adults from participating in victimless, non-violent activities ultimately causes more harm, more problems and costs more money than regulating them And always without ever actually reducing participation or stopping an artificial black market that inevitably arises.

      Also, giving us -as free citizens- the choice to participate in so many different activities will mean that some people won’t like what others are doing. We have to learn to accept that some people have different desires and as long as it doesn’t affect others and stays within commonsense boundaries, they should be free do do what they want.

    • Mark says:

      02:45pm | 14/04/11

      We don’t have Pokies in WA , we pay more for our drinks and more for a meal at our local pub or club , than over east.

      I have no problem paying for these things when I go out , I would hate to think my meal or drinks were being subsidises due to someone gambling addiction.

      Our clubs and pubs would love to get pokies in as it will increase their overall profits , they will get more punters in with lower drink and meal prices as well as reaping a high return from the machines themselves.

      Whilst there is still places to gamble over here like TABs and the casino we have much less of a problem. Pokies are a scourge that ends up in every pub and club and are constantly in peoples faces everytime they go out anywhere for a drink /meal.

    • Babindarob says:

      03:15pm | 14/04/11

      Don’t know about Unaustralian, should be Dumbaustralian. You would have to be a mug to sit in front of a pokie putting money in a slot knowing that you can’t win. At least in the old days you had to pull a lever and got some exercise.

    • DG says:

      03:46pm | 14/04/11

      In Qld every bottle shop is linked to the licence of a pub, therefore the largest owners of licenced hotels are Coles & Wooliworths and therefore the ultimate benefactors of the majority of poker machine revenue.

      Licensed clubs do generally operate for the benefit of their members such as Surf Clubs which fund volunteer lifesaving activities

      Maybe the question should be asked of the board of directors of Coles & Woolworhtshese companies what their official position is regarding problem gambling.

    • DG says:

      03:46pm | 14/04/11

      In Qld every bottle shop is linked to the licence of a pub, therefore the largest owners of licenced hotels are Coles & Wooliworths and therefore the ultimate benefactors of the majority of poker machine revenue.

      Licensed clubs do generally operate for the benefit of their members such as Surf Clubs which fund volunteer lifesaving activities

      Maybe the question should be asked of the board of directors of Coles & Woolworhtshese companies what their official position is regarding problem gambling.

    • Freeman says:

      04:55pm | 14/04/11

      Meh,
      Clubs and gaming associations have had heaps of time to address problem gambling. they haven’t and they won’t so they should be disqualified from taking part in pokie reform now. Maybe the goverments proposed plan isn’t the best way but it’s better than nothing. I think there should be more regulation on how the machines themselves operate.

    • Mike says:

      05:11pm | 14/04/11

      Pokies got me hooked and I’m always glad when I haven’t got the money . The enticements also of gourmet meals for around $7.00 - $20 worth of FREE Keno tickets and $20 and $50 shopping vouchers are ways they keep sucking you in.
      ATM’s in clubs are also bad news.
      I reckon a $200 limit is needed - the ALP supports it only because it needs to hold government - the Liberals basicly support it - I think changes are long overdue and if the clubs will not reduce pokies it needs to be legislated.
      Australia is the second largest poker machine operator in the world - and Woolies and Coles have the largest number of total machines in the country.
      Many junior sporting clubs had their sponsorship cheques reduced two or three years ago.
      If you won’t them viable close a large number of sites - in our town of 10,000 we have two clubs and a pub with pokies

    • fed up says:

      05:46pm | 14/04/11

      blah blah blah all this for what, they get to spend $20 on the pokies but they can go to the next window and put $9,999 on any TAB or KENO bet in one go. it is not going to help the problem gambler. or better still the problem gamblers will start going to the casinos (no limits there) and guess what the government make more money!!!!!

    • Aussie Wazza says:

      05:56pm | 14/04/11

      Pokies are hypnotising. The bright lights the ‘almost’ factor. The ‘free’ games; if I can just get that ‘joker’ down. Its all lining up nicely.

      You are feeling sleepy; very sleepy. You are close to winning. Just a few more games to a jackpot.

      These days you don’t even get the thrill of coins dropping into the tray. Its just numbers . tiny unobtrusive numbers that trivialize the value. You are up 5678. Five thousand six hundred and seventy eight what? Hold on and I’ll work that out; just let me finish this first.

      Beaudy mate! another pay, three in a row 5, then 20 then 30. it’s lining up for the big one. I better increase from 20 lines at 5 to 20 lines at 20. And on and on it goes. VERY CLOSE TONIGHT. Get some cash off the wife and back early tomorrow before anyone beats me to this machine.

      Have to walk home, my GO card is empty. Bloody thieving Council.

      Keep the pokies.

      Just get rid of the lights.

      Make them drop out cash each time the level reached 5000.

      Bring back handles to pull instead of buttons to press.

      Limit to 5 lines and 5 coins per line.

      Cut out the pretty pictures and only allow black san sarif letters or numbers.

      None of these will reduce playing anymore than plain cigarette packs will reduce smoking. Ask any tobacco manufacturer of publican.

    • Paul Davis says:

      06:39pm | 14/04/11

      I love gambling, always have. My mates and I used to say it’s better than sex as we could do it any time we wanted.

      I gave up horses, never played cards and got stuck with a pokies addiction.Big Time.

      Where I was living I only ever went to the casino as I liked a fling on roulette on the way out.

      I became such a regular, losing so much, so often that my behaviour there was always acceptable. I was always treated well and never abused by staff.

      Even the night I threw up into a pokie and just sat there as I was so drunk was OK. They just escorted me to a cab and said nothing at all. I was too ashamed to go back for a whole week but when I did? No problem, what would you like to drink? The usual. And so on.

      I tried to start fights, abused croupiers and much more but nothing was ever a problem. I was one of the chosen few.

      About a decade ago I gave up, as well as drinking and smoking, my lifestyle really. And you know what? I miss none of them and look at people now who do these things with scorn.

      I see casinos and pubs as outpatient offices of mental hospitals. I truly do.

      And these pathetic clubs cry poor, oh woe is our community if this goes through. It’ll be the end of everthing, the town will fold.

      Ain’t that great? Putting the responsibility of the town’s very survival in jeopardy if they lose a bit less.

      I say, if these clubs and towns rely so much on the problem gamblers like I was, then let them fold, close shop, go broke. As that would mean more people and families would have money to live on.

      I still remember when NSW was the only place these machines existed. Now I think we have the world’s largest number, our little country. Even the USA only has a few locations where you can play pokies. We have them everywhere.

    • Venise says: says:

      02:16pm | 15/04/11

      An excellent comment. Especially ““I see casinos and pubs as outpatient offices of mental hospitals. I truly do.”” Thank you for your honesty.

    • bikinis on top says:

      08:01pm | 14/04/11

      gambling is based on the fact that people can predict the future, especially based on the past,  and can make easy money doing so.
      how can you possibly do that?
      Why do we believe that we can?

    • Baal says:

      10:54pm | 14/04/11

      There are mugs born every day and gamblers are a dime a dozen. However drinking is far worse and perhaps we should do something about this. Gambling and drinking seem to be related and it might do good for us to rid society of both these evils which are worse than illegal and legal drug use. However the biggest problem in Australia is racism against the indigenous people’s the past 200 years which has their health issues 20 years behind that of other Australian’s. Just shoot the gambler and give the drunk a high powered car so they can kill themselves.

    • SydneyMan says:

      11:37pm | 14/04/11

      How about invetstors stop gambling on houses causing prices to go up and for me and my family to have no roof over my head.

      How about the government stop overtaxing me, making it almost impossible to support my family without resorting to crime.

      Some people think that they are so high and mighty and think they can determine what and when they choose to practice their FREEDOM.  As if they know better, not realising how infuriating they really are.

      Fix the real things that are making us, the majority, really poor. Pokies are just another distraction to the real issues. Piss this government off.

    • Libby says:

      12:04am | 15/04/11

      I’m concerned that Wilkie is such a one trick pony.  To have staked his alliance with the Government on this issue is playing right into the Opposition’s hands (as all they want to do is regain power) and left Oakeshot and Windsor in an untenable position.
      We has such a great opportunity to make democracy and real debate happen in this parliament and he’s just gone and thrown it all away because of his pet peeve. 
      Surely there are more important issues facing Australia that poker machines - why couldn’t he have gone out on a limb for something important to all Australian’s - like electoral reform or health care?

    • Jim says:

      10:53am | 15/04/11

      Good one Davo. Yes pokie addicts may find another way to gamble away their wages.  So be it.  They may even wake up to themselves.  Some comments here are attempting to disguise this problem with other problems or issues.  Two wrongs don’t make a right thank you.

    • bigmuzz says:

      12:52pm | 15/04/11

      when they brought in the alcopop tax didn’t most people just move on to hard liquor?....  so if they bring in this pokie tax, will most people just move on to TAB and online gaming?....  raspberry

    • Sue Pinkerton says:

      03:09pm | 20/04/11

      No, bigmuzz, most people did not move onto hard liquor. I work in Emergency departments. When the alcopop tax came in, the number of paralytic young women arriving in the department on thurs, fri and sat nights fell dramatically. If these young women had simply started drinking hard liquor, the numbers of paralytic women arriving in ED would have stayed the same - or perhaps even risen.

    • Ziggy says:

      11:30am | 16/04/11

      Penberthy, I’ve got a lot of time for your opinions in most cases, but your position on poker machines is just bullshit.

      Poker machines are inanimate objects that just sit there. They don’t suddenly jump up off their pedestals, run to the houses of people and drag them to pubs and clubs and force them to put all their wages into them at gunpoint.

      Gambling is entirely a voluntary act, an activity that is driven by greed - yes Penberthy - GREED. People who gamble are looking to make a fast buck without having to work for it, whether it be via lotteries, horseracing, poker machines, casino games or anything else - even the proverbial flies crawling up a wall.

      It’s about greed and those people who claim to be gambling addicts are just addicted to trying to make a fast buck. You have a look at who are the so-called poker machine addicts - in virtually all cases, they are from the lower socio-economic sector, people who know that they will never be rich by way of their normal jobs, so they think that they will improve their lot by punting on whatever is their favourite gambling form.

      How many white-collar professionals wind up broke from the pokies? Hardly any - it’s the club and pub-going labourers and housewives that play those stupid machines that get sucked into thinking that they will actually make more than they put into them.

      It’s just greed, not addiction and as far as I’m concerned, it’s not the fault of the pokies that people who play them are poor - it’s the fault of the people themselves and if they have no responsibility for their actions, well bad luck to them - let them starve in the gutter for their stupidity.

    • Stuart says:

      09:51am | 17/04/11

      The un-Australians are the Pub and Club opperators that sit back and rob the unfortunate and the addicted with machines that are programmed to give the pokie machine owners a guaranteed large profit daily,weekly,yearly and forever.There are no fair odds in poker machines,they are set to always win,this is not gambling,it is just plain robbery.

    • Bindi says:

      01:27pm | 17/04/11

      Some are trying to legislate the human out of humans. Deal with these people individually and leave the rest of us to live in our democratic society.

    • Sue Pinkerton says:

      03:30pm | 20/04/11

      Why pick on pokies? Why not include all forms of gambling? Because wherever gaming machines are legalised, introduced and widely distributed, the numbers of problem gamblers increases tenfold within 5 years. See various states of Australia and the US, Canada, the UK, South Africa, and Norway to name but a few. This happens whether other forms of gambling are already legal in these places prior to the introduction of aforementioned gaming machines or not.
      Wherever gaming machines have been banned, the number of problem gamblers seeking help over their gambling drops dramatically, approaching pre-gaming machine introduction within 3 months. Again, this happens whether other forms of gambling are already legal and readily available in these places beofre and after the ban or not.
      Most interestingly, the profits derived from other forms of gambling remains stable after gaming machines are banned.

      People hooked on gaming machines do not gamble indescriminately - they are hooked only on gaming machines. Other forms of gambling do not appeal to gaming machine addicts so they do not suddenly start gambling excessively on the horses or sports any more than people quitting crack suddenly take up smoking nicotine.

      If all poker machines in Australia were switched off tomorrow, the number of problem gamblers seeking help for their gambling would fall - within 3 months - to the levels they were at back in 1991.

      Pokies aren’t dubbed the “crack cocaine of gamblers” for nothing!

 

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