How much do we actually care about whales?

BMJ says:

04:13pm | 12/01/10

We, as a society are spineless.

We have environmental ‘concerns’ but don’t have the nuts to do anything about it once it encroaches on our jobs or our reckless consumption.

TB says:

04:28pm | 12/01/10

Well, of course, BMJ - jobs and reckless consumption are the core of this pathetic excuse for a society we live in.

TC says:

04:29pm | 12/01/10

The first thing that should happen is that Paul Watson should be prevented from hijacking and assuming Australia’s leadership. Where the hell is our Prime Minister and why is he allowing this idiot and his mob of fellow zealots run down our relationship with Japan?

Once this idiot is out of the picture some sanity can come back to the discussion and perhaps there can be a solution to meet all needs.

DocBud says:

04:31pm | 12/01/10

Why is the opposition’s confused position more important than Kevin Rudd telling porkies before the election to get people to vote for him?

http://www.smh.com.au/news/whale-watch/rudd-defends-antiwhaling-plan/2007/05/20/1179601227399.html

When he makes a whole lot of new promises in the run-up to this year’s election, will the faithful swallow them all again and then turn a blind eye and a deaf ear when he fails to live up to his promises. I suppose he has consistently not been John Howard, and that appears to have been all that mattered.

And, no, it is not worth upsetting our major trading partner. An absence of whaling is a nice to have, not a necessity.

Eric says:

04:31pm | 12/01/10

Awww, boo hoo TB and BMJ.

If you hate our society so much, why are you too cowardly to leave it?

Eno says:

04:38pm | 12/01/10

Lets face it non vegetarian eating folk. We like fish & we like meat. The Bluefin Tuna is more endangered from fishing than whales.. it’s a story possibly coming from the whale watching industry that you shouldn’t eat the stuff.

The only problem is that the Japanese feed the meat to their dogs so a few Japanese except the old buggers that subsidise the hunt through government payouts care to eat it. 

Once agin it’s a case of “LET THEM EAT CAKE” from a ruling class that feels themselves more important than their underlings..

nic says:

04:44pm | 12/01/10

#DocBud, I agree. The degree of examination about Abbott (and those before him) by the Punchsters is opposite to the level of examination of the party actually governing. Go figure?

Robert says:

04:46pm | 12/01/10

Well they say fish stocks are diminishing. Apart from humans, whales also eat a lot of fish. The species of whales that don’t eat fish eat krill, which would otherwise be the food of smaller fish. Small fish are in turn the prey of bigger fish. If someone doesn’t try to understand and manage the whale population (as the Japanese do) and human consumption of fish, there won’t be any whales or fish. The Sea Shepherd lot are a bunch of noxious loonies who have too much free time on the hands and ought to be charged with piracy and vandalism. Rudd and Gillard show suffer the same for condoning the anit-whaling activists antics.

acker says:

04:53pm | 12/01/10

The Japanese don’t tell me to stop eating Beef….I don’t tell them to stop eating Whale…this story has always been a extreme green beat-up, and definitely not worth spending much government time or resources on.

Carl Palmer says:

04:53pm | 12/01/10

We should not take the Japanese to court.

However the PM will have an issue because that’s what he promised he would do in 2007. He would have known back in 2007 that they were our biggest trading partner and yet he still threw out the sanctimonious and empty rhetoric. There goes another broken promise – and thank god for this broken one.

If you were a supporter of this PM you would have to surely be scratching your head and wondering what’s going on…. Not many ticks in his list of promises.

Funny that – the hysterical outrage on the Japanese for what they do to whales and yet the roaring silence of letting another man / country - Robert Mugabe / Zimbabwe carry on committing crimes against humanity. Whales V’s humans

Go figure

Jane says:

04:55pm | 12/01/10

Doc Bud…curious isn’t it? Rudd can do no wrong. He DOES NOTHING after promising big….and it’s ok.

What Abbott is suggesting is no different to what KRudd is doing now…only Abbott is up front and honest about it. I daresay you all prefer KRudd to do the same but lie about it, shirking the bold promises made to take legal action and then didn’t/doesn’t. Labor talked very big on what they would do pre-election to suck the voter in…and it did. Hell, even I joined the ” F*ck off Japan and leave the whales alone” group. Bold talk on what they would do ( despite advise and reality contrary) netted them the neccessary Green votes that gave them the election. They got in and realised all their tough talk was naive and would be ineffective/counter productive….and that the Coalition had their hands tied then just as much as they do now.

So don’t blaggard Abbott for telling it like it is and acknowledging all considerations….stick it to hypocrite KRuddco who were the ones who deceitfully made big promises that they now cannot keep. They wilfully talked big on Japanese whaling and what they would do and conveniently ignored that of Norway etc. ...so were inconsistent and politically selective. KRudd/Labor duped all who voted for them..the Coalition didn’t make any such promises. Abbott/Coalition is as anti-whaling as any of you/us…its just that he/they is realistic on what can actually be done…and the way to go about it. KRuddco, on the otherhand are liars and hypocrites to gain votes and prey on the ignorant as the main objective…..and then spinning/deceiving afterwards to avoid delivering.
Time to get real…THEY are in government - hold THEM to account.

Angus says:

05:07pm | 12/01/10

The Japanese eat whale & they don’t tell us what we’re able to fish for or eat! Whales are nice creatures & so are most of our western diet…...anyone boycotting Sushi joints,I bet no!

Greg Atkinson says:

05:15pm | 12/01/10

Got a picture of a dead Kangaroo and it’s Joey? Animals are killed every day to feed us, not great for the animals but are we all going to give up meat & fish?

Cows are scared in India, so can Indian activists start harassing our merchant vessels, toss acid at us etc. because we slaughter sacred animals?

When did Australia become a nation of hypocrites?

Ian Leslie says:

05:16pm | 12/01/10

I think what Tony Abbott says is sad but true. We make more fuss about a democraticaly elected government (and trading partner) killing whales than we do about African despots slaughtering their own people. Time too get our priorities right?

SLF says:

05:16pm | 12/01/10

Agree with Chris, it is little more than cultural bigotry. It is also deeply amusing given we are the first nation to tell anyone to f@ck off if they dare criticise our way of life or cultural values.

Would love to see the look on an Aussie’s face if an Indian Hindu suggested that we should stop eating beef. ;D Just look at what happens when people accuse us of racism.

It is also interesting to see that to lodge a claim likely to fail, we would be breaking international treaties to do so.

Andy says:

05:16pm | 12/01/10

Hahahaha! Why don’t you go find a society that is more to your ideal, BMJ and TB? Oh, that’s right. THEY DON’T EXIST! I wonder why?

Paul Watson and his gang are a bunch of pirates, and vandals. They should be arrested and jailed or just plain shot on the high seas. Why is the spineless AFP not doing anything about these violent offenders?

Meat Eating Hypocrits says:

05:20pm | 12/01/10

I’ll read this story later.  Its time to go home for dinner.  Hmm, will it be some cow, lamb, sheep, chicken, duck, calf, kangaroo or pig?  Or perhaps a huge variety of fish, crabs or other shelf fish?  Its all good because I’m a culturally superior Australian with culturally superior choices in the animals I kill and eat.  Not to mention battery hens and the like.  PS There’s no such thing as “humane” farming, despite what the multi-million dollar farming industry will try and tell you.

Realist says:

05:27pm | 12/01/10

How is the opposition’s position contradictory? They are saying they are opposed to whaling and want the Japs to stop, but wouldn’t take them to court over it. That’s pretty clear if you ask me and is completely separate to the issue of calling on the government to hold true to their word.

Fact is, Rudd promised to take Japan to court over whaling and hasn’t. The Liberals never said they’d do that and are perfectly entitled to call Labor out on their failure to follow through on their promise.

LH says:

05:30pm | 12/01/10

A well written article Leo. Tony Abbott is right to hold Rudd to his promise to the Australian people. Tony is also right to say how it is with the Liberals.
This promise that Rudd made cannot be kept, the incident with the Ady Gil was in international waters, as was Japan’s whaling ship. It would be interesting if this went to court, because I think that the Ady Gil and the Sea Shepherd was breaking the law of the high seas. If they lost in court, what would the greenies do then?
Kevin Rudd doesn’t care about anything except himself.

D'oh says:

05:32pm | 12/01/10

The fact that the minke whales, the subject of the Japanese hunt, are not endangered has been omitted from this article.

If the Sea Shepherd organisation was a country, their actions would constitute an act of war.  Their reckless actions endangering their lives and the lives of the Japanese crew are despicable.

It has already been mentioned, but why are the Sea Shepherd organisation’s actions limited to the Japanese whaling fleet?  Why have they not attacked whaling fleets in the Northern hemisphere?

Eliza says:

05:37pm | 12/01/10

The only whale i don’t care about is Abbott in his swim attire.

Joe says:

05:45pm | 12/01/10

Abbott has done something no other politican before him has managed to do.. tell the truth. I appauld him for that, but he has also continued to proved that the Liberal party are a shambles.

His point is correct though, Australia is an economy and therefore must be run like a business. Besides, if it was Australian custom to dine on whales and their young, nobody but Peta would care.

Chase Stevens says:

05:46pm | 12/01/10

@ Realist - Perhaps you didn’t read the article?

matt says:

05:46pm | 12/01/10

I’m tired of Mr Watson , a guest in our country, going into the Southern Ocean and stirring things up.  He creates an incident and then calls upon our government for protection.  The minke whale is not endangered at all.  His time would be better spent on other pursuits closer to his home.  Quit wasting fuel chasing ships around the ocean.

BT says:

05:53pm | 12/01/10

An “ally” that has complete disregard for human and animal welfare, or for the diplomatic relationship we share, one that is willing to deliberately change course and risk human life in the pursuit of a profit? No thanks.

mikk says:

05:58pm | 12/01/10

I will put a video of a roo being shot up against one of japanese whaling any day.
I know which one will make you sick!
The cruelty of harpooning a whale with a grenade tipped spear and then letting it slowly bleed to death or drown is the point.
Why are the japanese so cruel to their fellow creatures? Why are so many here blind to the needless suffering?  Would it be ok for your dinner to suffer so?

SoWong says:

05:59pm | 12/01/10

Thanks Realist - you have stated it clearly : - 1. Abbott is telling us how it is - i.e. very llittle chance of success and potential damage with a trading partner and 2. Hunt is merely requesting that KRudd and friends admit they were were wong and were never going to take Japan to court. 

All talk and so very little action.  It is an election year - will we all be so gullible ths time around?

Lou Mettam says:

06:00pm | 12/01/10

One hand washes the other. Japan needs Australia equally as Australia needs Japan. Whaling is not the issue. Japan wants to drive home that Australia cannot claim any piece of Antartica and Japanese fishermen are a law unto themselves. Save the Whales by all means. I lived in Japan in the 70’s they are good folks.

G says:

06:02pm | 12/01/10

The aboriginals hunt endangered species in Australia legally because of historical / cultural reasons, why can’t the Japanese do the same?

And in that regard, what’s wrong with bringing our sea-steak cousins (whales) to their final appropriate resting place (my stomach).

Deliah says:

06:44pm | 12/01/10

@ Andy. Clearly you are confused. It is Japan which is being tried in a court of law in the Netherlands for piracy,  not the Sea Shepherd. Also, the not so minor fact that Japan’s slaughtering of whales is illegal in addition to being immoral.

Bob says:

06:45pm | 12/01/10

What i dont understand is why Japan insist on being part of the International Whaling Commission (IWC)? Why not just be like Iceland, Norway or Greenland and just LEAVE the IWC and can hunt whales of any species commercially without any legal critics..  i mean, if they did that, protesters do not have any grounds besides moral superiority (aka racism) to stand on.

Abbott should be applauded for his straight talk. Too many politicians just spin and spin or just blatantly lie in your face knowing they will get away with it.

B S Goh says:

06:52pm | 12/01/10

Iceland plans to catch 100 Minke whales and 150 Fin whales and Norway 1286 Minke whales a year. The Minke populations in Northern Hemisphere is estimated to be 200,000 according to IWC data and it is less than half of the Minke population in Antarctica. (more than 500,000 see IWC).
The Minke population in the Antarctica more than doubled when the Blue whales were depleted from more than 200,000 to about 2300. If you were an Australian farmer you will swear that this establishes and proves that the Minke whales compete head on with the Blue whales.

Bad luck for all the Baleen whales krill their main food has declioned by about 80 percent since the 1970s because of global warming. This is according to British scientists, Atkinson et al, in their well cited paper published in Nature (2004),

Thuis there is NO DANGER of extinction for the Minke whales from Japanese harvesting. You can argue that culling of Minke would reduce its competition with the Blue whales and it is good for the survival of the Blue whales.

Anyone worried about survival of whales should focus on the critically endangered Blue whales and the Bowhead whales in the Arctic Ocean. IWC allows natives in USA and Russia to strike 67 Bowhead whales a year from an endangered Bowhead population of about 10,000. It has been estimated that the original population of the Bowhead whales was 200,000..

James says:

06:55pm | 12/01/10

Such hypocrisy. What about other countries who also hunt whales? We ignore them? The media is such biased, it sickens me. This is what I hate about Greenpeace or whatever environmentalists attacking Japan, whereas other countries who do hunt whales don’t get targeted? Is Australia that afraid to go after Iceland or Alaska? Oh wait… they’re probably more powerful than Australia, and America is already criticising us, since so many racists here make this country look bad enough. Stop attacking Japan and look at our own backyard first.

Q,E,D, says:

07:29pm | 12/01/10

@ nic :05:44pm | 12/01/10

Too true, nic. Hope the media pick up their game in the run-up to the election!

Agree - humans first, whales .... um .... oh yeah, last! I would have thought the fact that the SS crew must be vegan says it all…

Also agree on the cultural bigotry.

Super D says:

07:40pm | 12/01/10

Imagine if Japan did somehow wipe out the whales.  Those sea sheperd clowns would simply move on to being a pain in the ass somewhere else.  I’m firmly in the I’d rather they didn’t hunt them but hey what am I gonna do?  Live under sharia law?  Each to their own or a stealth boat gets sunk.

Terry of Brisbane says:

07:42pm | 12/01/10

Funny how I seem to remember Neil Mitchell recounting a comment made by Peter Garrett in an airport lounge before the election. Something along the lines of “it doesn’t matter what we say now, after we get in we will just change it all anyway”
Seems to apply to just about everything that was promised by this “all sizzle - no sausage” government since they were elected.

Bruce says:

07:48pm | 12/01/10

No matter what the outcome, Australia will come off second best. There in lies the problem !!

Kelly says:

07:53pm | 12/01/10

Unfortunately, even if the Labor Government did take Japan to the International Court, Japan could just remove themselves from the treaty and then resume commercial whaling the following year (along with Norway/ Iceland).

This is why the SS is so important to stand up and be counted for.

As a pre-emptive strike, paedophilia and child exploitation is legal in some countries….. Just because it is legal, doesn’t make it right (this includes ALL animal cruelty)!!

DocBud @ 5.41pm, I read the provided link and there is definitely no room for interpretation with this promise….. Imagine everyone’s bitter disappointment (who voted for the Labor because of this).

Alice says:

08:01pm | 12/01/10

“Under the treaty countries agree to put territorial claims on hold in favor of collective management.”

I have to respectfully disagree with Dr Leary. I would argue that this issue has more to do with the latter (“collective management”) than the former (“territorial claims”). In my opinion, Japan’s whaling is not a “collective” pursuit and it’s definitely not “management” - if anything, it’s mis-management.

Chris and Jane: Norway isn’t doing it in our part of the world. Japan is.

Also, people need to stop referring to Japanese people as “Japs”. It’s offensive, and it is NOT okay to use this term, just because of the whaling issue.

D'oh says:

08:08pm | 12/01/10

@ Eliza:

“The only whale i don’t care about is Abbott in his swim attire.”

Abbott is hardly a whale.  Now Rudd in Speedos, that would definitely be a white whale out of water.

Alice says:

08:16pm | 12/01/10

Some people need to educate themselves - killing whales is NOT the same as killing pigs, cows, etc for food. There are a few reasons for this, but the most important difference is that whales are not “farmed” like cows, pigs, etc. Therefore, their population is not sustainable. The commercial whaling industry is directly responsible for the endangerment of species such as the Southern Right Whale.

Kim says:

08:30pm | 12/01/10

Youve just got to remember how the Japanese treated fellow human beings during the Second World War.
Why the hell are we surprised?
Anyway, we shoot the hell out of ducks,roos,,cattle,sheep [ not to mention crayfish ] etc.Whats the difference.
Are we any less barbaric. And I,m a redneck at heart.

D'oh says:

08:41pm | 12/01/10

@ Alice:

“There are a few reasons for this, but the most important difference is that whales are not “farmed” like cows, pigs, etc.”

Rabbits and cane toads aren’t farmed either.

“Therefore, their population is not sustainable”

Too right, how many minke whales are there in the southern ocean again??

“Also, people need to stop referring to Japanese people as “Japs”. It’s offensive, and it is NOT okay to use this term, just because of the whaling issue.”

Well said.

Justin says:

08:58pm | 12/01/10

B S Goh - talking too much sense.  Good to see and good to see other comments on here not being so hypocritical and making us (Australians) look like racists.  The only issue for me (being an omnivore) is if they started to hunt endangered spieces of whales. I also agree that Watson and the Sea Shepard should be getting a visit from the AFP. I don’t mind if they protest from a distance, I don’t mind if they sat outside the Japanese embassy, but their behaviour has been nothing short of criminal and its lucky no one has been killed.

Andy says:

09:08pm | 12/01/10

Only in the worst delusions of the festering greenie left will the actions of the Japanese be construed as piracy. Unfortunately, the International Kangaroo Court is in the same area as Nohopenhagen where emotions and not logic rule, where rioting is permitted, and murder and genocide is OK, so long as you are being politically correct about it.

Remember, it is NOT te Japanese that is going around deliberately ramming ships, trying to permanently blind people, attempting to sink another person’s ship, boarding another vessel against orders, using chemical weapons and recklessly endangering human lives, all over a bunch of mammals that is NOT EVEN ENDANGERED TO BEGIN WITH!!!

What hypocracy and bullsh*t! This is another Climategate, where LIES is being pandered about by the greenies and swallowed by the stupid.

Daniel says:

09:34pm | 12/01/10

I dont thnk Australians care anough about the whales to be honest. Or the people would be tearing down the walls of parliament and demanding action. Australians are more interested in sport & sitting on the coach. It really is sad if it was any other country they would be rioting in the streets.

Rhonda says:

09:35pm | 12/01/10

For goodness sake!!! we in Australia know the carnage that whaling brings…....I live on the south coast and look forward to watching these beautiful animals frolick and bring there calves to life…...scientific purposes? rot..Tony Abbott is a loser along with Peter Garrett, who plays the game but forgets the costs. Australias borders very different to other countries and the risks are far greater to our enviornment and sustainablity….....enough crap lets get off our lazy butts and take action NOW, the livelyhood of our future
generations is now dependant on our decisions today.

In the words of my old Dad “we won the war but are losing the battle”
Are we going to be bullied by the Japanese government.
Politicians need to let their balls drop and stand up for all Australians.

paul says:

09:42pm | 12/01/10

hahaha

DLT says:

09:43pm | 12/01/10

I agree with Tony Abott (on this issue anyway, he is no Peter Costello unfortunately) we should not antagonize the Japanese, and I wouldn’t trust Kevin Rudd with an apple. However I would like to see some sort of measure placed to ensure that the whaling remains sustainable, because these creatures are more intelligent and have lower birth rates then most species we consume. The Japanese can go about their business all they want so long as they don’t decimate the species.  (I’m just thinking of this from from a capitalist perspective, if you make your ‘goods’ extinct that’s just bad business)

P.S. Have the Sea Shepard crew ever heard of Gandhi?

John in Alice says:

09:51pm | 12/01/10

The main point here folks is that the majority of Australians do not like the Japanese killing whales in our waters.  The Japanese have chosen to ignore this.  Had we send some Naval vessels to escort them out of our claimed waters the issue here would be not be appearing here.
You like the idea of a neighbor’s dog crapping in your yard?  Same difference.  You’d either kick ass or take them to court.  The Sea Shepherd would not be involved if our elected officials were doing the job they promised!

Julian Thomas says:

10:28pm | 12/01/10

are the norwegians whaling in antartic waters, near our claimed area, if not then why mention it??

Alice says:

10:48pm | 12/01/10

Re: Minke whales. This:

“The Minke populations in Northern Hemisphere is estimated to be 200,000 according to IWC data and it is less than half of the Minke population in Antarctica. (more than 500,000 see IWC).”

And this:

“Thuis there is NO DANGER of extinction for the Minke whales from Japanese harvesting. “

. . . are false statements. I don’t know where you got your data from, BS Goh, (unless you’re looking at the estimates from the late 1980s) but in 2004, the IWC admitted that the actual population was probably only 338,000. Furthermore, the latest data (released this month) states that “The Commission is unable to to provide reliable estimates at the present time. A major review is underway by the Scientific Committee.” See for yourself: http://www.iwcoffice.org/conservation/estimate.htm

The fact is, we don’t know how many Minke whales there are. The worry is that it’s a smaller species and therefore commercial whalers catch more of them - because of that, their population will decline quicker.

May Pernovski says:

10:52pm | 12/01/10

It’sactually not about the whales or the kangaroos or whatever animal is the latest on the human list.. it’s all about being pigs.  We clearly do eat meat and fish and poultry but it is meant to be an occasionally snack - but not always.. it is our greed that has overtaken our right to kill some but not all.. money is perpetually the key behind all food and how much is consumed.. the ads have told us to “feed the man meat” so that is what we believe… however everything was always been intended to be in moderation..i.e.not cow one day, lamb,pig then fish for the next three… the key is everything in moderation and whether we believe the Japenese should eat their whales we all know they make a nice quid from each whale and that really is what this is all about.. so stuff your mouths appropriately and think of what goes in and at what cost?????

Louise says:

10:57pm | 12/01/10

This issue, like so many, goes to show that life is not black and white.

Maybe we should all learn to require a lot more information and consider the real consequences of the alternate courses of action before being so opinionated or blindly led.

The problem with parties like the Greens (and the current Federal Labor Govt) is their penchant for taking the moral high ground knowing they won’t be held to account to actually deliver. Usually the morally superior position conveniently ignores all the other implications e.g. Rudd’s pre-election position - we’ll use force, the courts, whatever it takes to stop those nasty Japanese from killing OUR whales, to now, Oh well, we’ll ask really nicely if they wouldn’t mind, but we don’t want to offend a very important trading partner, and we won the election so too bad for whales.

Ditto, the issues with illegal immigration, the stolen generation, and climate change. All peddled by Rudd & co as mishandled by a morally bankrupt Howard Government. Yet, what are the real outcomes of Rudd’s moral superiority; people dying at sea, terrorists fast tracked into Australia, Aboriginal children removed from their families at an increasing rate and Rudd and his family/mates/neighbours/benefactors flying around the world spewing out CO2 emissions.

Ask more questions, ignore “policy announcements & press releases” (especially if there’s a hard hat, florescent vest or shovel involved), reject simplistic answers and demand better outcomes, or the whole of Australia will end up as broke and dysfunctional as NSW.

Julie Coker-Godson says:

11:07pm | 12/01/10

The anti-whaling issue is not based on racism.  I really wish some of you Punchers would stop introducing race into every complaint/issue raised which happens to involve people of another nationality.  Even if no-one else cares about the whales, I do and do not wish to see them being hunted.  Why can’t the Japanese hunt for seafood closer to their own waters instead of ours.  The Norwegians and Canadians don’t come down here so why should the Japanese.  I am ashamed of the gutlessness/cowardice of both the former Howard Government and now the KRudd Government in dealing with this issue in a much stronger fashion.  But of course, they only want what’s good for them (Japanese trade).  When the whales have become extinct don’t start screaming then it will be too late.

Mathew Henderson-Hau says:

11:09pm | 12/01/10

Simple question, simple answer Lee. Australians care a lot more than their government do, because their government was elected under false promises, promises which represented the views of most Australian citizens. These promises were not delivered, and the Labor party has gone down the same double-handed facepalm inducing roads as the Liberal party. Workchoices, still here. Whaling, still here. If it weren’t for the bribe from government coffers as a stimulus package, there’d probably be riots. Then again, in the last decade the ‘average aussie’ has sat on their arse and watched every civil liberty they had eroded, as always, by Government’s that do not represent the view of the average Australian, or the people they are meant to be the voice and representatives of.

V says:

11:22pm | 12/01/10

What do the Indian government’s accusations about Australia being a racist country and the Australian governments chest beating about Japanese whaling have in common?

They are both distractions cynically used deflect the domestic audiences attention from the REAL issues that need addressing in each respective country.

Steve says:

11:41pm | 12/01/10

@ those flaming BMJ and TB, you are right in that they have nowhere to go, just like I have nowhere to go… because in every society, we have greedy self absorbed bastards who try to exploit any situation to turn a profit.

B S Goh says:

11:43pm | 12/01/10

I was there alive and in an Asian country when the Japanese invaded and committed their atrocities. I think this is a good time for Australia to demand that Japan follows the example of Germany and apologize to Australia and many other Asian countries and move forward in the modern world. 

Japan has a new Party in power and a new PM. If we do this battle to demand such an apology now most of Asia will be on our side and cheer us on as heros. This is a right time to make this demand after the recent discoveries of the ships Sydney on the Western side of Australia and the Centaur on the Eastern side.

But alas we are completely wrong on the issue of whaling by the Japanese.  Firstly there are now more Minke whales than in 1868 when we started killing the Blue whales. The Blue whales were decimated from more than 200,000 to about 2300 (IWC data) and is in extreme danger of extinction.

An Australian farmer will swear that the rise of the Minke whales when the Blue whales were decimated means a strong competition between these two species.  Some scientists, quite rightly from their training, cannot confirm that this is proof of the strong competition between the Blue whales and the Minke whales.

Furthermore Iceland , Norway will harvest more Minke whales than the Japanese from the Northern Hemisphere stock which at about 200,000 is less than half of the Minke population in the Antarctica. You can argue that these IWC populations are not correct. Population estimates are never. They are simply estimates.

But you cannot dispute the fact that the age of sexual maturity of the Minke whales declined when the Blue whales were decimated. No biologist in the world has disputed this independent assessment measure of the health of the Minke population over the past 150 years.

To make management of these Blue and Minke whale populations even more difficult British scientists Atkinson et. al. in Nature (2004) showed that the krill population had declined by about 80 percent since the 1970s due to global warming.

Please understand that the whole of Asia is watching us on this whaling issue. Why do we want to look so ignorant about the basics of the Science of the whale populations?

In most of the media we tend to give the impression that the Japanese are killing the extremely endangered whale species when in fact they are harvesting the very abundant Minke whales. We always talk just about whales rather than the abundant Minke whales as distinct from the endangered Blue whales and get completely confused in the process.

Why do we want to get the whole of Asia to think that we are racists over this whaling issue?

If we demonstrate such ignorance over basic and simple biological knowledge of biological populations how can we get any respect in Asia?

We have a great farming tradition and we used to have world leaders in the science of biological populations. We had famous ecologists like H. G. Andrewartha and L. C. Birch.

So Quo Vadis?

Shane From Melbourne says:

12:47am | 13/01/10

So Rudd and Abbott are just going to kiss Japanese ass then? May as well renounce any australian claim to an Antarctic EEZ then. Hell, just renounce any claim to Australian Antarctic Territory period since it’s obvious we are unwilling to enforce our claims and no one recognises them anyway.

Realist says:

01:26am | 13/01/10

Actually D’oh, rabbits are farmed for meat and pelts here in Australia.

PS says:

02:43am | 13/01/10

Everyone assumes that Sea Shepherd and associated ‘Green’ groups want whaling to stop as it poses an extermination threat to different whale species. The reason why we don’t hunt human beings and classify ourselves as ‘animals’, even though technically we are, is why so many people are actually committed to stopping this practice.

Bill says:

04:40am | 13/01/10

Alice, Australians are called Aussies, that too must be offensive I take it?

Bill says:

04:42am | 13/01/10

‘Returning to my first question, how much does the Australian Government really care about whales? You can bet that Kevin Rudd is never going to care that much.’

Neither do most Australians.

Makka says:

05:53am | 13/01/10

DocBud, like most Labor-haters, you suffer from an awfully short memory. How about the countless promises John Howard broke? Remember him promising not to bring in a GST? Remember “core” & “non-core” promises? But I guess you just take your cue from the Coalition, who are forever jumping up & down accusing Rudd of things that they themselves did with gay abandon when they were in power.

acker says:

06:26am | 13/01/10

Other than the far left wing political members of Labor, Greens, Libs, the media, WWF, uni students and snotty nosed younger students reading whale sob stories in their classroom much like Pink read regimented school text in the Wall (Pink Floyd) does anyone realy give a frig about the whales.

Alice says:

07:06am | 13/01/10

@ Bill: No, it isn’t. “Japs” is more akin to “Abos”.

watt says:

07:08am | 13/01/10

How much do ALL Australians REALLY care about whales.?
Appprox SFA .

Another big ticket item with the Greens and the force fed kids at school b ut the other 99% couldn’t give a toss.

Alice says:

07:13am | 13/01/10

Re: Minke whales. This:
“The Minke populations in Northern Hemisphere is estimated to be 200,000 according to IWC data and it is less than half of the Minke population in Antarctica. (more than 500,000 see IWC).”
And this:
“Thuis there is NO DANGER of extinction for the Minke whales from Japanese harvesting. “
. . . are false statements. I don’t know where you got your data from, BS Goh (unless you’re looking at the estimates from the late 1980s). In 2004, the IWC admitted that the actual population was probably only 338,000 and the latest data (released this month) states that “The Commission is unable to to provide reliable estimates at the present time. A major review is underway by the Scientific Committee.” See for yourself: http://www.iwcoffice.org/conservation/estimate.htm

“Youve just got to remember how the Japanese treated fellow human beings during the Second World War. Why the hell are we surprised?”

Are you serious? You REALLY think that the allied soldiers were saints, do you? C’mon now, be realistic. Japan’s wartime atrocities are well documented in the Western media. What aren’t well documented are the atrocities committed by the allied forces. Not that I think WW2 has ANYTHING to do with this issue.

Deliah says:

07:23am | 13/01/10

@acker and Bill. You are wrong. Most Australians do care about whales and want the vile practice of Japanese whaling to stop. This is evidenced by numerous polls, petitions and the many Australians who have been whale watching.

The ‘gutless’ government had better find their spine on this issue as there are many votes to be lost, including in Kevin Rudd’s own seat.

Bill says:

07:33am | 13/01/10

Alice,

Only in your mind.

Little Miss Scifi says:

07:33am | 13/01/10

The Australian people care about whales.

The Australian Government does not.

Max Power says:

07:35am | 13/01/10

Alice says:09:01pm | 12/01/1

Also, people need to stop referring to Japanese people as “Japs”. It’s offensive, and it is NOT okay to use this term, just because of the whaling issue.

What an absolute load of crap. Calling them japs is no different to us being called aussies, the New Zealanders beig called Kiwis, Americans Yanks, Brits Poms. Get a life, if people were using japs to be offensive there are a whole range of other names to describe the japs that are offensive and are meant to be offensive. The next thing you know, calling someone Macca because his last name is McMahon will be offensive. The name japs offensive, ha, you make laugh alice, do you live in wonderland?

JA says:

07:37am | 13/01/10

I am ashamed of this country and what it stands for, or doesn’t stand for. People who stand up for defenseless intelligent feeling creatures are labelled terrorists. People who stand for money are not. Pathetic. Only when we have raped and pillaged the environment and resources from are essentially gone will any politician do anything about it when money is not the motivation. As a species we are the worst, because we take more than we need and call it “cultural”. Pathetic, words from Tony Abbott, a no vote from me.

Ken Goodall says:

07:38am | 13/01/10

Makka: Are you such a Rudd lover that you are prepared to lie like him?

“Remember him promising not to bring in a GST?”

Yes, LIE, because everybody must know by now that Howard went to an election with the GST as a major policy issue (and he lost votes on it and probably expected to do so)

Don’t let the facts ....

Bill says:

07:44am | 13/01/10

Deliah,

Polls are beat ups, they don’t represent mainstream, until you ask everyone you have’t got an accurate poll.

No one does a petition on ‘who’s not interested’.  I bet there are more names not on your petitions. 

People are interested in feeding their family, keeping their job and improving their quality of life.  The silent majority don’t care about whales and these would number in the millions where as the whale lovers would be hundreds of thousands if that, but whatever gets you through the day.

I accept your passion for the issue, but it won’t tip a government no matter how much you imagine it will and the government know that is the case. They will be returned on core issues of tax, health, education, roads etc. as usual.  I want my government to concentrate on these issues, not the bleatings of a few activists who think that whales are important to us.  They’re not.  Whales are a distant tiny insignificant speck on the furtherest reach of the horizon (on some other planet).

Splatcat says:

07:46am | 13/01/10

Alice says:
Are you serious? You REALLY think that the allied soldiers were saints, do you? C’mon now, be realistic. Japan’s wartime atrocities are well documented in the Western media. What aren’t well documented are the atrocities committed by the allied forces. Not that I think WW2 has ANYTHING to do with this issue.

You are right this has little to do with the topic. But I would suggest you do some reading about WW2. I have never read or heard of any Allied Soldiers raping nurses pretty much non stop for 48 hours, then using the nurses as bayonet dummies that were subjected to multiple stab wounds before dying. I never heard of any allied soldierstying wounded prisoners to trees and being used as Bayonet dummies. The only link this has to whaling is the cruelty the Japanese inflicted on nurses and wounded soldiers is a precedent for the cruelty they are now inflicting on the whales through long drawn out painful deaths.
Allie soldiers no doubt committed atrocities, but who wouldn’t if your mates and nurses were being mutilated, raped, and starved to death in forced labour camps.
This is a whole new topic, but to let you post such bull$hit won’t do. It would be offensive to our diggers from WW2 to let you tar them with the same brush as the Japanese.

Deliah says:

07:55am | 13/01/10

@ B S Goh. Are you not aware it is not just the Minke whales the Japanese want to slaughter but endangered sei whales and humpbacks? Thus Japan is in violation of the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species (CITES). This, in addition to being in breach of the IWC because there is a ban on commercial whaling and Japan’s “scientific whaling” is a sham.

jamie says:

08:08am | 13/01/10

So the most important aspect here is the oppositions somewhat confused stance about whaling, not the blatant lying of the current Rudd government who, as per usual, refuse to do anything.

What is it with the media and Rudd?

snotty says:

08:17am | 13/01/10

when you compromise your morals for dollars, what does that make you?

Joe Stephens says:

08:24am | 13/01/10

@snooty
Q:when you compromise your morals for dollars, what does that make you?
A: human.

Des says:

08:24am | 13/01/10

snotty - it makes you rich.

Blossom says:

08:29am | 13/01/10

Australians do care about the whales but we need to tread carefully here. If it was up to me I would have sent a sub out to sink them in the first week. But fortunatly I am not in charge. How would Tony Abbott know what we feel anyway? The liberals are totally out of touch with ordinary Aussies. But in my opinion you need to remember this, Australians will vote first in any election on what policies will affect them and their families and their country.. then the whales might get a look in but the election will not be lost on whaling alone.  World War 2 was over long before you were born Alice ..hell I bet I am older than you, I am a baby boomer( born after my father returned home to Aus from that war) and its not appropriate for a long dead war to be bought into this argument.

acker says:

08:33am | 13/01/10

Funny how a funny looking black boat supposedly designed to operate near Antarctica near Icebergs can so easily be busted in half in a collision while it is stationary ? Get real people a boat that looks like the Batmobile, but is made out of light Fibreglass worth 2 million ???? Captain Pugwash is playing the addicted sycophantic whale loving media for fools. It was a stunt and the media were ready for it and cameras happened to be everywhere.

Deliah says:

08:40am | 13/01/10

@Bill, again you are wrong. The number of blogs and comments on Japanese whaling is further evidence this is a high rating issue with the Australian public.

As for rating the government on other issues, I would have thought being prepared to uphold the law and not betray the Australian people counts for something. A government which blatantly lies and refuses to be accountable is a short lived one.

Minke Whales are not endangered says:

08:47am | 13/01/10

The fact that the war continues to be brought up tells me the issue of Japanese whaling is more about the Japanese than whaling. After all Norway hunts in international waters too.
It seems ‘operation waltzing matilda’ is working a treat, sponsored by your ABC and commercial breakfast television. Pauline must be proud.
Its must look comical to the world, Australia the highest per capita poloution emitter sees itself as vanguards of the enviroment on this issue. Save the whales that dont need saving and drive home in your v8. LMAO

bobby says:

09:21am | 13/01/10

Only the older generation eats whale. Younger Japanese generations are not interested. When the oldies die out , so too will the whale meat industry.
Those oldies are the equivalent age of our baby boomers. I doubt that whales will be fished out by the time the oldies die.
On a political level, forget about Abbott. How about holding Rudd to account . He made the promises, and he, not Abbott, is in government, and able to do something, which he won’t. If yiou are a Labor voter, you should be feeling a little dudded, by that champion of all dudds.

Tim says:

09:21am | 13/01/10

Deliah,
you were proved wrong with your claims of the illegalities of Japanese whaling on the other thread. Stop spreading them here.

acker says:

09:32am | 13/01/10

Japanese rely on Whales for national food security. They are an island nation who relies on seafood, whale like it or lump it is seafood. They would be mad to threaten their national food security by loosing their whaling skills and letting their whale boats totally dissapear. In a world of rising sea levels whale hunting for food may make sense. Cows, Sheep and Pigs are not good swimmers and don’t drink salt water.

AFR says:

09:33am | 13/01/10

Whales - Meh.

Bill says:

09:43am | 13/01/10

No Deliah, you’re wrong and ranting at me won’t change that.  Does telling people who hold different opinions to yourself, that they are ‘wrong’ somehow comfort you and make you feel better about yourself and the issue?  What kind of society are you advocating where we are all whale lovers who can’t have indpendent thought or perspective without being yelled at that we are ‘wrong’.  Some society that is, so long as we agree with you, you feel okay and therefore weren’t not subject to your objection and criticism.

I am not political in any way, but Labour will be returned next time and probably the time after that whilst the opposition continue to remain in disarray.

The government are upholding law and from your various contributions across this issue, I think it’s been established that you haven’t grasped the principals of the law in relation to this matter (that’s by no means meant to be a personal attack).

The Australian people haven’t been betrayed, just a small minority group think (a) that they have been betrayed and (b) that the rest of Australia see their cause as significant and of importance to all Australians.

Again most Australians don’t care about whales and never will.

Vivian says:

09:46am | 13/01/10

What about those poor prawns that we drag,  screaming, I’ll bet ,from their home on the seabed, allow them to drown when exposed to air. then we burn them on the barby, drink a few stuubies and complain about what the Japs are doinf to other sea creatures.

Steve of Cornubia says:

09:47am | 13/01/10

Another day, another example of Kevin’s lies and failures, yet no doubt tomorrow the media will announce an even stronger polling result for Rudd and Labour. Go figure.

HeckleandJeckle says:

09:52am | 13/01/10

bobby says:10:21am | 13/01/10
Bobby do you have google? you obviously have a computer so do a search. 
Children are being served Whale and Dolphin meat at lunchtime in Japanes schools. This meat is given to children while their taste buds are still developing. I doubt very much you can blame the older Japanese for the amount of whales being consumed. Lamb is traditional Aussie fare, ihe taste for lamb has been passed down from Convict days, ( when we rode on a sheeps back) but many societies don’t eat lamb at all. Whale meat is full of mercury,  and definatly not a dish I would ever partake in. Lets hope this whaling ends soon

Deliah says:

10:12am | 13/01/10

@Bill. I base my arguments on the facts, science, research and the moral aspect . You say I haven’t grasped the legal principles. If that is so how did I manage to get a law degree? As with all moral issues, passions are high. I make no apologies for prosecuting the case that Japanese whaling must cease.

Bill says:

10:33am | 13/01/10

Deliah

Just because you have a law degree doesn’t make you a good lawyer.  One presumes you studied International Law, with specific reference to UN Charters, Australia’s legal sovereignty, Jurisidiction in International waters and the International Whaling Convention and scored 100% across all theres areas?  No? So it’s possible that you are not correct.  Surely, as a ‘law degree’ holder you would concede that this is possible?

Tim says:

10:53am | 13/01/10

Haha,
so now you’ve got a law degree Deliah?
why then do you keep spreading lies about the issue then?
Surely you should have some professional pride.
Provide evidence with links that show the Japanese whaling is illegal and proves that they can’t just leave the IWC and CITES conventions at any time they choose.

Scott Glennon says:

11:07am | 13/01/10

Australians don’t really care about Whales. What Australians have been lead to believe is that Japan conducts whaling in Australian waters and the Australian and New Zealand governments are neglecting the protection of these areas. Unfortunately this is not the case.
While the Australian government takes a backseat each year, I believe there is more to the Whaling movement by organisations such as the Sea Shepard then most of us realise.  The importance of the movement is not to stop Japan Whaling, but develop the adoption of environmental and wild animal welfare within our economies. Really the “Save the Whale” campaign and Africa’s immediate and lethal approach to tusking, have lead the world towards a greater understanding of animals and their ecosystems. Perhaps Japan didn’t get the memo?
I’m afraid to say; “what the Japan Whaling fleet does is deemed illegal,” because where is the evidence that supports this argument? Sneaky as it may be.. Whaling fleets are marked Research and likely have a team of whalers with science degrees on board.
Really the focus Australia should have is to educate our fellow nations of the impact they will have to our international community if they continue to destroy large portions of environment and wildlife. I think here in Australia we do a pretty decent job in comparison to Japan and China who are lagging behind, with most of the economy being based around the manufacture of products and transportation of them around the world.
What better place is there on Earth to lead the way and develop an environmentally friendly economy (EFE has a ring to it actually,)  then our very own?

dancan says:

11:16am | 13/01/10

This story and all those in protest against Japan remind me of a person I used to work with.  She was a vegetarian and was always quick to point out this fact.  One day at lunch I saw her eating fish the conversation went like this

“Aren’t you vegetarian?”
“Yes I am”
“But isn’t that fish?”
“Yes, and?”
“Well that doesn’t really count as being vegetarian then does it”
“Of course it does I don’t eat meat!”
“But fish is meat”
“Yes but I don’t have any emotional attachment to fish”

And there you have it people, it’s exactly the same situation as Japan and whales.  Killing whales is wrong, but having a leg of pork when it’s been proven that pigs are as smart as dogs well that’s ok.

Melle says:

11:17am | 13/01/10

Nice article Leo.  How about a follow up on why we care about whales at all?  Something the comment posters are obviously interested in.

James says:

11:43am | 13/01/10

Forget whales? 

The Japanese do not need to kill whales to survive

Whaling in Australia’s territorial waters is illegal

Whaling is a huge waste of resources, i.e. resources used to catch and bring whale to market is tremendously inefficient.

Whales are mammals, fish are a more primative form of life

The way Whales are killed is very inhumane

Which of these statements is not true.  We must take Japan to court and stop whaling, with the Navy if necessary.

Freddo says:

12:24pm | 13/01/10

@James,
is it still school holidays, shouldn’t you be playing with your XBOX or something?

Your points in order:

Japanese do not need to kill whales to survive.
So what, you don’t need a computer to survive but you’re on the internet. We don’t need to eat cows to survive but we still do it.

Whaling in Australia’s territorial waters is illegal.
Yes it is. Too bad that no-one is whaling in Australia’s territorial water’s. The antarctic water’s have not been recognised as Australian water’s by Japan and nearly every other country. The antarctic water’s are not owned by Australia.

Whaling is a huge waste of resources.
So is cattle farming, so is owning an air-conditioner, so is owning a computer. What’s your point?

Whales are mammals
So are cows.

The way Whales are killed is very inhumane
Define humane?

Deliah says:

12:25pm | 13/01/10

@ Tim. You have asked me to prove Japanese whaling is illegal. May I suggest you read:
prnnews.com/.../international-legal-... “International Legal Experts Urge Action ... Also, the case Humane Society International Inc v Kyodo Senpaku Kaisha Ltd [2008] FCA 3.

You might like to get in touch with ANU international law expert Professor Don Rothwell. He will tell you that Japanese whaling is illegal.

As the writs in the court of law in the Netherlands state, the Japanese whalers are pirates of profit and environmental slaughter and destruction.

Andy says:

12:55pm | 13/01/10

Why do the rabid morons keep peddling the “in OUR waters” line? Less than a HANDFUL of nations recognise our claim, and one of those who do is as useful as tits on a bull. In other words, it is NOT our waters.

If the mere act of claiming makes things true, then Delilah is a child raping paedophile because I SAID SO!

tc says:

12:56pm | 13/01/10

@ B S Goh. Youre certainly right about one thing. This issue, the behaviour of SS et al and the public condemnation of another country exemplifies the arrogance and ignorance of the Australian populace. Australians are a bunch of self righteous, finger pointing loudmouths who would be better focussing upon their own inadequacies of which there are many.

Im Australian living in Asia and its a serious embarrassment to see the see and read what Im seeing and reading here and elsewhere.

Its like the ant telling the elephant he owns the world.

Deliah says:

12:58pm | 13/01/10

@Freddo. The Australian Whale Sanctuary was proclaimed in 2000 under the Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation (EPBC) Act 1999, and includes the waters within Australia’s 200 nautical mile exclusive economic zone adjacent to the Australian Antarctic Territory. Since July 2000 hunting whales in the Australian Whale Sanctuary has been an offence attracting heavy penalties. Yet, between 2000 and 2006 it has been estimated that Kyodo Senpaku Kaisha has killed in excess of 1300 whales within the Australian Whale Sanctuary in breach of Australian law. In 2008 The Australian Federal Court ordered that the hunt be stopped.

International law aside (of which Japan is in breach), why is the Australian Government not upholding it’s own laws and decisions of its courts? Does that not concern you? It makes government proclamations of the belief in the rule of law look decidedly suspect.

Natalie says:

01:01pm | 13/01/10

I’m going to sound ignorant, but stuff our relationship with Japan. If we don’t stand up for the animals on this earth, endangered or not, they’re going to be gone soon. Then what? As important as a healthy economy is, without a healthy environment, without the flora and fauna that were put on this planet for a reason, this world would not last long.
@ freddo. not everyone eats cows (or fish or chicken or pig etc) to survive. not everyone has an airconditioner. and using a computer without the need is completely different from killing an animal without the need. computers are not living things.

Tabby says:

01:10pm | 13/01/10

@Delilah

Notwithstanding the FCA’s grant of the injunction. Does the Japanese recognise the Federal Court’s jurisdiction or more specifically is the injunction enforceable.

I would say, no. Although Allsop J stated that futility should not bar relief. There very well maybe significant or barriers to enforcement that cannot be overcomed.

Also, assuming that legal action is bought to the International court. How enforceable is their decision if Japan does not submit and recognise its jurisdiction?

Moreover, how can Australia claim jurisdiction if there is no majority (let alone unanimous support) recognition of Australia’s jurisdiction? I guess it follows that its international waters - res nullius

Minke whales are not endangered says:

01:20pm | 13/01/10

So Natalie are you a vegan or hypocrite?

James says:

01:25pm | 13/01/10

Freddo your ignorance is matched only by your silliness:

Computers and Whales what a silly comparison, please explain how killing a Whale is the same as owning a computer? (without sound like more of a banana if you can)

The Japanese are Whaling in an a whaling sanctuary which is against international law.  Your arguement there is pointless.

Sending a large boat on a 20,000 km trip to fetch a Whale is so far beyond what it takes to get even cow flesh it is not funny.  Your comparison again is stupid.

Whales are endangered cows are a plague (i.e. there are Billions of them because of human activities).

Cows are stunned before they are killed, so they feel no pain.  Whales die in agony when they are hunted.

You clearly don’t think very hard, for your opinion to be worth something you should definitely try thinking before you opine

Alice says:

01:33pm | 13/01/10

@ Bill and Max Power:

“What an absolute load of crap. Calling them japs is no different to us being called aussies, the New Zealanders beig called Kiwis, Americans Yanks, Brits Poms.”

and

“Only in your mind.”

Wrong. As I’ve already pointed out, it’s not the same as “Kiwi”, “Aussie”, etc, but rather, more like “Abo” or “Wog” to them. I lived in Japan. I have been told by Japanese people that this term is offensive. If you want to argue that it isn’t, you’re entitled to do so, but my statement is based on people from that country telling me that that term is offensive. I’m sure that many Japanese don’t care (or don’t even know) about this term, but some do. Besides, is it that much effort to type five extra letters (“Japanese” as opposed to “Japs”)?

“Get a life, if people were using japs to be offensive there are a whole range of other names to describe the japs that are offensive and are meant to be offensive. “

Oftentimes, offensive terms are not “meant to be offensive” and are. As is the case here.

“The next thing you know, calling someone Macca because his last name is McMahon will be offensive. “

Well, if Mr McMahon finds it offensive . . . 

“The name japs offensive, ha, you make laugh alice, do you live in wonderland?”

No, QLD. And where do you live? With your head in the sand?

@Splatcat: You’re reading too much into what I said. I didn’t say that the Allied soldiers were on par with the Japanese (and for the record, I don’t believe that - Japan were the aggressors, after all). All I’m saying is that the Allied soldiers were not saints, either. Many of your sentences begin with “I have never heard of . . .” which was one of my points.

750,000 minkes says:

01:35pm | 13/01/10

James explain to me how the species Japan hunts are endangered.
James explain to me how Australias live exports are slaughtered in the middle east.
Thank you

Chris says:

01:40pm | 13/01/10

Supporting acts by Sea Shepard that break all laws of the sea is stupid. If we have come to a point in society where the ends justify the means then I will be punching the crap out of the next idiot that cuts me off at the lights….oh hold on I have to be tolerant of them. Why? You extremist zealots that support these actions are so hellbent on making anarchy rein its not funny.

Deliah says:

01:47pm | 13/01/10

@ Tabby. Japan does recognise the jurisdiction of the International Court of Justice which is a body of the UN. The strength of the case is that it can be shown that what Japan is doing is in fact commercial whaling and not “scientific research.” I quote the international law Professor Alberto Szekely who co-ordinated the London international panel “Japan’s repeated assertion that its whaling activities are legal is incorrect and misleading. “Scientific whaling” as conducted by Japan violates international law and should not be allowed to continue.”

If Australia were to launch a successful case in the International Court, it is doubted whether Japan would flout the findings of a UN body.

As for upholding and enforcing the Federal Court’s decision, this would take an act of political will. I wouldn’t be holding my breath.

Max says:

02:10pm | 13/01/10

I contest that the problem goes a lot further than whaling; it can be extended to cover pretty much all moral and environmental issues.  You care about the environment?  Ride a bicycle to work, turn off your air conditioning, don’t have a pet, don’t eat meat more than twice a week etc.

We’re all hypocrits - no wonder most moral outcries are just ignored by the offending parties.

Whale meat aficionado says:

02:20pm | 13/01/10

This all does raise an interesting question. What wine pairs best with whale? I find a new world pinot noir has just the right amount of acidity to cut through the fat. However I have had success with a good left bank Bordeux and no doubt a good coonawarra cabernet would be a superb choice, providing its not too tanic ofcourse.
Suggestions anyone?

Tim says:

02:31pm | 13/01/10

Deliah,
Tabby has given you a good reason why Australia won’t take this issue to international court.
It is highly likely that the water’s will be not recognised as Australian waters. This has been pointed out to you many times.
I know Professor Rothwell’s opinion on this issue. It is that the “Scientific Whaling” loophole that Japan is currently using is illegal. This brings me to the second part of my question to you that you have steadfastly refused to answer.
“Prove that they can’t just leave the IWC and CITES conventions at any time they choose.”
You know full well that even if Australia goes to court over this issue and wins, Japan can just remove themselves from the conventions, thus making their Whaling completely legal.
Waiting for your response Deliah….........

Bill says:

02:45pm | 13/01/10

Alice,

Thanks for your input, I will still feel free to cal them Japs, it’s a free country.  Maybe you should stop telling people what to do.

Jase says:

02:56pm | 13/01/10

Alice is right to complain about the use of the racist and derogatory term, ‘Jap’. I have lived and worked in Japan for more than 10 years and can personally attest to the fact that many Japanese people are well aware of the way this term has been used in the past and its extremely negative connotations.
It’s surprising to me that this website would give people a medium to use such a term in public. Perhaps this kind of tacit support is given just to further inflame the issue and create the hype that the media so crave. It would be interesting to know whether they would allow me to freely use other similarly offensive terms such as n**ger, ch**k, towelh**d, etc.

James says:

02:57pm | 13/01/10

750,000 minkes says:02:35pm | 13/01/10

James explain to me how the species Japan hunts are endangered.
James explain to me how Australias live exports are slaughtered in the middle east.
Thank you

—————————————————————————————————————
Every heard the old adage “two wrongs don’t make a right”, meditate on that one.

Oh and by the way the resource per tonne of a transport ship full of a known quantity of cows would be much less than trundling down to the Southern ocean hunting whales for a month and trundling back to Japan.

It does not need to happen it is illegal, wasteful and amoral comprende?

Freddo says:

02:58pm | 13/01/10

James,
maybe you should learn how to construct a logical argument before criticising others.
Your first point was based on the assumption that people should only eat or use things that help them survive. Why?
We use many things (including computers), and eat many things (including cows)  that are not needed for survival.
If Japanese people chose to eat Whale, then that is their prerogative.

Japan and most other countries don’t recognises the Whaling sanctuary and the reason our government won’t take it to court is that they know they will lose. There has already been many comments here confiming that.  Your argument there is pointless.

Fishing boats routinely travel thousands of km’s to catch fish, what is so ridiculous about it if the market and the $$$ are there? Maybe you should learn some economics.
Do you know it takes around 75000 L of water to produce 1kg of beef? People are allowed to make their own choice in where their money is spent. What some people consider a waste of resources, others do not. Who made you responsible for how Japan uses its resources. 

You do realise there are more than one species of whale? most whales, including the Minke, which makes up the majority of the Japanese hunt are not endangered, in fact they are thriving.

Are you saying that if Whales did not feel pain you would consider the Japanese hunting humane and OK? Different people have differing perceptions of what is humane.
What are your thoughts on the live animal trade from Australia? I suppose you think its OK because their only sheep right?

Maybe if you used logic instead of emotion your opinion would be worth more.

Bob says:

03:10pm | 13/01/10

The Norwegians, Icelanders and Greenlanders hunt whales in the North Atlantic and near the Artic, in international waters. The reason Japan hunts in the Antarctic is because the whale species in warm pacific waters are endangered and not sustainable (yet some island nations still hunt them regardless without any flack!) while the predominant hunted species in the Antarctic has been shown to be sustainable (you can contest that, publish your own “research”). It is also international waters. You people should stop trying to pretend otherwise, it does not bode well on your intelligence and morality. The only waters that Australia legally owns are 200km from our shores. Beyond that, it aint ours.

We may pretend to care because its near us..  but why don’t the Sea Shepperd care about the whaling that occurs off their own shores near the Netherlands. Why do they insist on sailing from the North Atlantic to the Antarctic to protest against Japanese whaling when its occurring in their backyards? Come ppl, get a clue, its all about publicity for the right-minded public to gain $$$.

So Japan hunts mostly non endangered, least concern Minke whales, with a small quota of non endangered but vunerable fin whales, in international waters and they get heavily criticized when other European nations hunt whales that are in lower numbers for outright commercial purposes yet nobody cares? You may not think race is an issue, but how can you JUSTIFY this fact that Australians seem to be the loudest voice of protest, even against japanese catching dolphins in their OWN waters when norway does the same, is in anyway not related to our bigot culture against the Japanese? I can understand, they misstreated us in ww2, but damn that was war and long ago, let it go already.

Bill says:

03:18pm | 13/01/10

Jase,

The racial connotation comes from you and your interpretation.  Interesting that you and Alice feel entitled to misinterpet what we write and laughingly tell us what we should do.

Bill says:

03:22pm | 13/01/10

Again, the vast majority of Australian’s couldn’t give two hoots about the whales and whoever hunts them.  It’s a beat up that most don’t even pay attention too.

James says:

03:28pm | 13/01/10

Freddo old chap your “logic” is somewhat warped.

The Japanese are Whaling in a whale sanctuary whether they (or you) recognise it or not.

Cows are breed by people to be eaten, Whales are wild creatures there is a real difference there.  It is like saying eating a cow bred for meat, is the same as going into an Elephant sanctuary and killing an Elephant for meat.

Since when has economics been logical it is a silly “science” that has caused alot of problems.

Don’t pretend you know the status of the Minke whale, that is laughable, did you get that from the Japanese “scientific” research.  By the way the Japanese wanted to add the humpback Whale and the fin whale to the dinner menu they are both known to be endangered.

It is best not to assume a species is thriving because if you are wrong and you hunt it, you may never get it back.

Whales are capable of feeling pain, whales are killed with explosive harpoons.  It takes them a long time to die.  I would like to see how you stood up to being stuck with an explosive harpoon pal.  Do you see me saying that the live animal trade is humane?

Maybe you should look up the meaning of logic before you open your mouth again.

Deliah says:

03:27pm | 13/01/10

@Tim. It is true that Japan could leave the IWC (CITES is more problematic). However, they haven’t to date and they do regard themselves as part of the international community. An adverse finding from a UN body is not something they would want.

As for the missing Kevin Rudd, I am sure he is seeking legal advice from everywhere. He would be calculating the benefit for him if he could win a case in a UN body. Unfortunately it appears this is the motivation which might spur him into action rather than the will of the Australian people. Whatever, if the slaughter of whales can be stopped that would be a very worthwhile outcome.

Scott Glennon says:

03:32pm | 13/01/10

@Freddo & James,

In my opinion a difference could be indicated in the process a Whale is caught to that of our marsupial livestock’s here in Australia. I’d suggest that the capture of such a large wild creature in the sea is almost sport like. Comparable to our very own unfortunate treatment of the Kangaroo on our Bushland highways or hunting activities.
It may be difficult to farm grow Whale herds, but the possibility remains.
It would be interesting to discover if Japan and other Whale nations have investigated this option, whether it be to satisfy this argument or actually conduct “research” legally in a man made environment.

750000 minkes says:

03:41pm | 13/01/10

“Every heard the old adage “two wrongs don’t make a right”, meditate on that one.”
Oh James I have, have you heard the old adage about “people in glass houses” or “put your house in order”

Bob says:

03:50pm | 13/01/10

I find it quite absurd that people even try to defend our abuse of livestock for our own gains just so they can sleep soundly thinking they are morally just. Comments such as “Cows/pigs/sheep/whatever are stunned prior to slaughter so they feel no pain” is stupid and ignorant. What about the life it had prior to its death? Also, how would you feel if someone locks you up in tiny cages, castrades you, then after a brief life of misery, you are stunned then your throat cut so you bleed to death? This is truly what you have to do to consider it “humane”, as that terms illicit placement of human emotions onto other animals.

Frankly, just accept the fact that humans are cruel to livestock and other sources of food. Non-vegans, don’t bring up humane treatment or slaughter arguments, its weak and clearly indicates your lack of integrity by trying to justify your moral superiority over other cultures that do not share your twisted views. Vegans, you do have a moral highground, but its just that, any enforcement of that view onto others immediately nullifies your moral superiority. Try to teach others, sure go ahead. Violent protests? Nothing more than terrorists.

The only case against Japanese AND all the other whaling nations is whether the species they harvest are sustainable. Anything else proclaimed by the greenies is a lie.

Freddo says:

04:24pm | 13/01/10

James,
once again you fail logic.
Just because one country says a whale sanctuary exists does not make it so. The claim has to be recognised, which Japan and most other countries have not. Therefore the waters are international.
Australia does not want to take this claim to the international court because it would lose.

Are you saying that only “farmed” animals should be eaten?
Go down to your local Woolworths and you will see plenty of Kangaroo meat and fish there. I’m waiting for your outrage at these babaric acts.

Even the lowest estimates by scientists for the Minke Whale population in the southern ocean are above 300000. This estimate was completely independent of any Japanese involvement.
The Japanese quota for this year is 900 Minke. This would not put a dent in even the lowest estimate of minke whale numbers.
The last estimate for humpback whales is 42000. Although the Humpback population is not large, Japan was only planning on taking 50, which is completely sustainable.
Are you saying you know more about these species’ population than the scientists involved in the estimates?

You didn’t answer me whether you would be OK with the whales being killed if the hunt was more humane?
You may not like the killing of whales, and you might think its inhumane, but you don’t get to decide what other countries do in international waters.

You can cry about it til your blue in the face but it won’t change the facts of the matter.

skinman says:

04:26pm | 13/01/10

Japanese whaling provides Australia with no benefit - I don’t understand Australians supporting Japanese whaling.

Our trade relationship with Japan is built on mutual benefit not Australia kowtowing to Japan. If Japanese whaling offends lots of Australians and provides no benefit why shouldn’t the Australian government make official protests to the Japanese government?

Mr Abbott’s comments might win him friends in Tokyo, but even if there isn’t a strong legal case he sounds pretty weak.

Are Australia and Japan allies? As far as I can tell there is no alliance between Australia and Japan - there is an axis through Japanese and Australian alliances with the US but nothing more. I could be wrong, I just find it curious that Japan is often referred to as an ally, and I couldn’t find any information on an actual alliance.

Jase says:

04:27pm | 13/01/10

Bill,
Thanks for your advice. Your hypocrisy is a little overwhelming though considering you’re so quick to tell the Japanese what to do.
Regarding my interpretation of the word, ‘Jap’; I’ll stick with the widely accepted one that you yourself could freely find as follows were you ever to take the time to read a dictionary:
Jap
n. Offensive Slang
Used as a disparaging term for a person of Japanese birth or descent.

ian says:

04:52pm | 13/01/10

what right have these countries got that go out into the open seas and cruelly barbaricaly slaughter these magnificant mammals i feel nothing but hatred and contempt for these people how inhumane can they be to do this it makes me ashamed to be a member of the human race

Scott Glennon says:

04:58pm | 13/01/10

@Bob,
Firstly, until such time as evolution places another race in our path, we are unlikely to experience that of what our food does.
Second, I’d imagine the life of a cow in a pen waiting to be slaughtered to be quite dull, no less important to that of one in the wild. The difference is the animal was raised with a sole purpose of being served into our economy if you like.
Australian farming regulations would not allow such treatment of a whale waiting to be slaughtered. I was 12 when I first went to the killing floor, started at the bolt gun and ended in the freezer while the meat was still twitching. I can vouch for at least the beef portion of your argument that their death is instant.
Watching some of the Sea Shepard’s video’s it takes a noticably long time for the whale to die even after being shot in the head a few times. I suggest you get some Youtube into ya. Frankly I was stunned that a human being was capable of such treatment.

Alice says:

07:03pm | 13/01/10

@Bill:

Neither I nor Jase have told you “what to do”, Bill. You thought that the term wasn’t offensive, and we’ve explained to you that it is. If you want to continue to be ignorant and inconsiderate in spite of this knowledge, then that’s up to you.

“Again, the vast majority of Australian’s couldn’t give two hoots about the whales and whoever hunts them.  It’s a beat up that most don’t even pay attention too. “

So . . . what are you still doing here?

acker says:

08:08pm | 13/01/10

If the Japanese were not lined up against us in WW2 would we be so extrovertently hostile to them ?
It seems like a few pro Whale folk are looking to restart WW2 hostilities to get on top of this argument.

Bill says:

04:42am | 14/01/10

Alice:

‘Also, people need to stop referring to Japanese people as “Japs”. It’s offensive, and it is NOT okay to use this term, just because of the whaling issue.’

That first sentence, would be telling people what to do, wouldn’t it?

Just because you consider it offensive doesn’t mean it was conveyed with that intent or that you are of sufficient importance that you control what people say.

’ So . . . what are you still doing here?’

I am talking to the ‘ignorant and inconsiderate’.

IcedVolvo says:

04:50am | 14/01/10

What a load of rubbish is promulgated about nature!

How do you think whales die in the wild? Do you think they die anaesthetised by morphine in nursing homes or do you think they die by being slowly eaten alive by shark and/or killer whales? Killer Whales and Great Whites do not kill whales quickly with explosive harpoons, they harass and attack in packs over hours or days and then eat the whales while they are still alive (they especially like baby whale tongue!) .

So should Sea Shepherd start exterminating Killer Whales and Great Whites as part of it’s brave and valiant mission, after all KW and GW take out many times more whales than the Japs?

Environmentalism is the new fundamentalist religion of the 20th century and unless we stop it now it will become the base for terrorism in the near future.

As to whether the term Jap is racist who really gives a toss its just a traditional shortening like Aussie but why not use Nippon or the colloquial Nip because that’s how they refer to themselves!

Dan says:

07:08am | 14/01/10

Clearly all this is the fault of the whales for being so delicious, this discussion would not be happening otherwise.  The very least they could do is evolve some sort of death-ray to defend themselves with if they want to be so tasty.

Deliah says:

08:29am | 14/01/10

@ Freddo. Some facts for you:
1.) The Japanese are killing whales in the internationally recognised Southern Ocean Sanctuary for whales.
2.)The Japanese are killing whales unlawfully in the Australian Antarctic Territory (Australian Law - Federal Court judgement 2008 under the Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act 1999).
3.) The Japanese are in violation of IWC regulation 19. (a) The IWC regulations in the Schedule to the Convention forbid the use of factory ships to process any protected stock. Paragraph 10(c) provides a definition of Protection Stocks. Table 1 lists all the baleen whales, including minke, fin and humpback whales and states that all of them are Protection Stocks.

The above is just for starters. The list of Japan violating international and Australian law is long and includes the whaling fleet refueling in the treaty zone below 60 degrees south in breach of the Antarctic treaty. Also, the fleet fails to submit Environmental Management Plans in case of a maritime disaster in the Treaty zone which breaches the Antarctic treaty.

How anyone can support the criminal activities of the Japanese whalers is beyond comprehension.

Sea Shepherd, Greenpeace and indeed any global citizen or group of citizens is authorized to take action in accordance with the U.N. World Charter for Nature. s21 (c) Implement the applicable international legal provisions for the conservation of nature, and the protection of the environment.
(e) safeguard and conserve nature in areas beyond national jurisdiction.

James says:

09:35am | 14/01/10

I find the utter stupidity of people who rail against environmentalism funny.  Remember:

Humans are animals

Without a functioning biosphere we are all dead, no economy no internet, no holidays, dead.

The web of life is not just a hippy idea it is scientific fact, you start removing links (species) from the web and pretty soon it’s curtins for the “smart” ape.

An interesting fact, psychopaths often start torturing small animals for fun, they have no empathy.  If you are without empathy for people and animals good chances are you are a psychopath.

Who started on about killer whales and whalers being similar?  That sort of stupid comment shows the intellect of some people.  If you can’t see the difference they I will not be wasting more words on you.

Freddo how is this for logic:

Humans are mammals, there are plenty of us, does that mean we can kill humans for food? With a harpoon no less

As to your contention that the Whalers are not breaking the law I would like to see you refute Deliah’s post.

I am actually for a majority vegetarian diet, it is much better for the planet.  This forum is about the issue of Whaling not other meat consumption.  There is also an issue about population numbers, I don’t have a huge amount of confidence in your Whale population estimates, I know that cows etc are in no danger of extinction.

Your posts only show your ignorance of the world.  If I were you I would spend less time opinining and more time learning about eco-system earth, your life may depend on it.

Bill says:

09:41am | 14/01/10

...but not participate in criminal/terrorist activities such as throwing acid bombs and assaulting people with the use of lasers causing temporary blindness.  This makes them criminals and I would be interested in hearing you condemn Sea Shepherd for their crimes Deliah since you are so passionate about upholding the law. 

How anyone can support the criminal activities of the Sea Shepherd activists is beyond comprehension.

Bill says:

09:58am | 14/01/10

So James, I take it you don’t swat any mosquitoes, kill dangerous spiders or cockroaches or shoo flies away - surely this will be demonstrating a lack of empathy?

‘An interesting fact, psychopaths often start torturing small animals for fun, they have no empathy.  If you are without empathy for people and animals good chances are you are a psychopath.’

Wow, that’s a fantastic leap! 

So the psychopaths who didn’t start by torturing animals aren’t really psychopaths?

If you have empathy for people, but not animals does that make you only half a psychopath?

Having lacking of empathy and actually killing are vastly different entities.

You probably need to make recommendations for the the next Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders to specifically having lack of empathy for whaling to be included as a symptom of Psychopathic tendencies.

Bill says:

10:04am | 14/01/10

If whaling was of sufficient importance to me I would research it and I am sure I could dispute the selective legal passages quoted.  None of them advise on the significance of the concept of ‘scientific reasearch’ by the whalers. 

It is interesting to note that after three different topics about whaling, we are starting to see selective quotes from google and the anti-whaling propoganda. It took how long?

As mentioned before the Sea Shepherd activists don’t have the right to take the law into their own hands and that makes them criminals.

Deliah says:

10:30am | 14/01/10

@ Bill. Rather than defend the Japanese whalers and demonise the Sea Shepherd, it might be prudent for you to actually do some research in order to establish the facts. Possibly then you would gain some perspective. As the writs in the Dutch court case show:
Just before impact the whaling vessel makes turns to starboard putting it in a direct collision course with the Ady Gil. This can only be described as a purposeful, premeditated action. Three other Japanese harpoon vessels had safely overtaken the Ady Gil, so why did the Shonan Maru navigate a direct collision course?

The actions of the Japanese ship were purposeful and their navigation decisions endangered six lives, injured a man and destroyed another vessel. This was an act of high seas piracy far surpassing anything Sea Shepherd had done or even threatened to do to Japanese ships.

Sea Shepherd engages in harrassment activities to disrupt an illegal activity. That is one level, attempted murder is on a completely different level.

It has to be said that the tenor of your posts reflects a strange sense of priorities and morality.

James says:

11:01am | 14/01/10

Billy boy you might like to read a book or two on psychology before you demonstrate you ignorance there old stick.  The primary characteristic of a psychopath is lack of empathy. 

If you are more interested in be a narrow minded twerp than showing concern for the completely unnecessary suffering of one of earths most majestic creatures, what does that say about you.

Your idiotic arguement that swatting a fly is the same as deliberatly torturing an animal shows you are unable to grasp subtlety.

Incidentally the Whalers don’t have the right to ram ships either, are you having a go at them, no.

You are clearly a grumpy old conservative who likes to bore people with you silly, narrow world view, a bit like everyones boring old grandpa.

Freddo says:

11:08am | 14/01/10

James,
You are a complete loon.
You talk about removing species from a web? I have shown you that there is no chance of Minke whales becoming extinct from the current quota of whaling.

You compare the killing of whales to the killing of human’s? WTF?
With talk like that, i know who sounds like the psychopath. If you can’t see the difference then I’m really worried for your mental health and the people around you.

Deliah has been shown to be wrong many times in the posts above.

You think you know more about whale populations than research scientists? Funny.

I think i’ve shown who is more ignorant of the world around them when your posts have been a ramble of incoherent and contradictory statements. Out.

Alice says:

11:43am | 14/01/10

@Bill: This is the last time I will respond to you.

I was informing people that the term is offensive to people of Japan. I can’t control what you say, Bill, and I’m not trying to. That’d be a waste of my time. Just because an offensive term “isn’t conveyed with that intent” doesn’t mean that it isn’t offensive. It’s like when people say, “No offense, but [insert offensive statement here].” The former does not negate the latter.

You have been told that this term is offensive by two posters here (who were themselves told this by Japanese people), and as I said: if you continue to use it in spite of this knowledge, then you’re being ignorant and considerate.

@ Everyone saying that there is no danger of Minke whales becoming extinct from the current quotas: you can’t possibly know that. The IWC themselves don’t know that. The population of Minkes is unknown, as per the IWC site (http://www.iwcoffice.org/conservation/estimate.htm).

Chris says:

11:45am | 14/01/10

I still cant get my head around the fact that when last month when Norway announced an INCREASE in their whale quota of 45% yes FOURTY FIVE PERCENT. There was no protests infront of Norways embassy, there was no news blogs with hundreds of comments, there was no headline stories on the News, there was no fluffy save the whale campaigns on breakfast television and there was no opinion pieces condemming Norway.
I am now completely convinced this issue of Japanese whaling has more to do with the Japanese than it has to do with whaling.

Tim says:

11:52am | 14/01/10

Ah Deliah,
you’ve been caught out telling Porky’s again.
For someone with a law degree, i suggest you go and reread the IWC convention and schedule before commenting again.

1) The Internationally recognised Southern whale sanctuary still allows “scientific hunting” which is the Japanese claim.
Now whether the Japanese hunting is “scientific hunting” is questionable and most reasonable people would see that it isn’t,  but that would have to be proven in court. However, it matters little as Japan can just leave the IWC convention if they wish which would negate any adverse finding for them. This has been pointed out to you many times. 

2) The Japanese are not bound by Australian law and you know it. Sure we can tell them we don’t like it but most countries do not recognise these water’s as Australian Territory. Australia would be likely to lose a claim of sovereignty if we took it to court.

3) Tut Tut Deliah, this is a blatant lie. Minke Whales are listed in Table 1 but you will notice they are not classified as “Protection Stocks”. Thus paragraph 19 does not apply to Minke Whales. Factory ships are legally able to process Minke whales.
You can see for youself at:
http://www.iwcoffice.org/_documents/commission/scheduletables.pdf

I suggest that anyone who actually cares about this issue, is sick of emotional rhetoric and wants to learn about the real legalities of whaling, to go and read the IWC convention and schedule.
http://www.iwcoffice.org/index.htm

Alice says:

11:56am | 14/01/10

Sorry, typo in my above post. It should read “ignorant and INconsiderate”.

Bill says:

12:06pm | 14/01/10

Little Jimmy,

You might want to read the post, I never said that lack of empathy wasn’t a characteristic of a psychopath.  What I stated was that you can still have a psychopath who hasn’t tortued animals.  Conversely, the absence of empathy for animals doesn’t make you a pyschopath.

As for my qualifications, I suspect that two University Degrees and 20 years of study might put me ahead of yourself in understanding mental disorder.

Interesting that you engage in name calling and abuse to make your case.  It indicates your struggle to engage in intelligent discussion.

‘Your idiotic arguement that swatting a fly is the same as deliberatly torturing an animal shows you are unable to grasp subtlety.’

From this, according to you, there are varying degrees of empathy.  The empathy for the death of a whale should be greater than the empathy for a fly?  Interesting, so do these ‘degrees’ of empathy that you feel entitled to claim, allow me to also implement?  Maybe, my empathy for whales is the equivalent of your empathy for flies?

The collision of the Whalers and the Activists has yet to determine who’s at fault.  The more ‘balanced’ amongst us like to see all the evidence before we make a decision or at least respect a court who has had the opportunity to do so.  A couple of you tube clips are sufficient for me to determine culpability one way or the other.  If the Whalers are deemed responsible, then I condemn their actions without hesitation.

‘You are clearly a grumpy old conservative who likes to bore people with you silly, narrow world view, a bit like everyones boring old grandpa.’

Grumpy?  Nope.
Old? Grandpa? Wow! Didn’t realise 40 was old and no I don’t have grandkids.

Just because I don’t subscribe to your ecletic world view doesn’t mean that I am not entitled to a voice.  Interesting that you promote the rights of whales, but can’t extend basic human rights to respect to others on this planet.  Hypocritical springs to mind.

James says:

12:19pm | 14/01/10

@Freddo

You might like to read what I actually said there Freddo frog.  I ask the question: if humans and whales are both mammals (you are an animal whether you like to admit it or not), and there are plenty of both (you haven’t proved jack btw, show me the research on minke whales) why is it ok to kill a whale and not a human?  I am suggesting you shouldn’t kill either.  You seem perfectly fine with Whales being killed.

Your problem is you don’t get subtleties, most conservative people see things in black and white.  I don’t think you are capable of understanding my arguements. 

RE Chris’ arguement, if you feel so strongly about it start your own protest at the Norwegian embassy, most environmentalists are to busy protesting the many stupid things humans are doing, to protest everywhere.  You have to pick your battles or you will burn out.  The focus is on Japanese whalers in the southern ocean atm, that is the battle we are fighting today.

More likely you will sit on your arse and do nothing, talking sh*t from the sidelines heaven forbid you get educated and actually help the environment that you depend on for the oxygen you expend in your pointless waffle.  Out

Bill says:

12:19pm | 14/01/10

Deliah,

‘Just before impact the whaling vessel makes turns to starboard putting it in a direct collision course with the Ady Gil. This can only be described as a purposeful, premeditated action.’

A few short grabs of footage on the internet is how you base your assessment?  What about your sailing experience and knowledge of the ocean currents?  None of the footage is sufficient to demonstrate what acutally happened.  You’ve just got your one-sided interpretation that suits your position.

‘Three other Japanese harpoon vessels had safely overtaken the Ady Gil, so why did the Shonan Maru navigate a direct collision course?’

Where was the Ady Gil when these other ships came past?  Do you mean that the Ady Gil just sits in the ocean and not move?  How can you say they navigated a direct collision course?  Were you there? Do you know what the Captain thought and did?  Mere speculation.

‘The actions of the Japanese ship were purposeful and their navigation decisions endangered six lives, injured a man and destroyed another vessel. This was an act of high seas piracy far surpassing anything Sea Shepherd had done or even threatened to do to Japanese ships.’

So if it was intentional, then this negates all of the criminal acts committed by Sea Shepherd activists because it wasn’t as bad as what they have done?  Following that logic, if Whalers from Norway take every single Blue Whale, then what the Japanese Whalers did doesn’t matter, because it wasn’t as bad as the Norwegians.

‘Sea Shepherd engages in harrassment activities to disrupt an illegal activity. That is one level, attempted murder is on a completely different level.

Last year, they illegally boarded a whalers boat, they have thrown acid bombs, they have tried to blind people - these are acts of criminal violence which is also piracy.  What if the acid hits someone in the face and permanently blinds or disfigures them and yet I am the one with the strange moral compass.  They have tried to foul propellors and it’s possible a ship could sink because of those actions.  Is this not Attempted Murder?

‘It has to be said that the tenor of your posts reflects a strange sense of priorities and morality.’

If I valued your opinion, I might be offended.

James says:

12:32pm | 14/01/10

Well Billy old fruit you have two degrees (in what I don’t know), you might know then that many people who turn out to be psychopaths torture animals as children, at the very least I hope you think that this isn’t a wholesome activity.

So you don’t think that the patronising “little Jimmy” is name calling, what do you call a hypocrite who accuses people of hypocracy, Mr 2 degrees why don’t you enlighten us.

I do get emotional about this issue and that isn’t a bad thing, I would hate to end up a repressed old git.

I believe you have rights but also responsiblities, looking after the planet being numero uno.  I think your numero uno is looking after numero uno.

Chris says:

12:44pm | 14/01/10

@James, I didnt think an act or instance that may be used as an example in dealing with subsequent similar instances is talking sh*t on the sidelines. Its called consistency and precedent.

Bill says:

12:44pm | 14/01/10

Alice this may be the last time I will respond to you.

‘I was informing people that the term is offensive to people of Japan. I can’t control what you say, Bill, and I’m not trying to. That’d be a waste of my time. Just because an offensive term “isn’t conveyed with that intent” doesn’t mean that it isn’t offensive. It’s like when people say, “No offense, but [insert offensive statement here].” The former does not negate the latter.’

So the African Americans call each other ‘nigger’ and therefore that must be offensive to each other and yet they don’t appear to react as if it is to them.  It’s only when a white person uses the term that it is offensive (which is racist in itself).  Is it perhaps not taken offensively by African Americans because they know there isn’t any intent to offend.

‘You have been told that this term is offensive by two posters here (who were themselves told this by Japanese people), and as I said: if you continue to use it in spite of this knowledge, then you’re being ignorant and considerate.’

You have been told the term isn’t offensive by two posters and yes I too spent five years studying the Japanese culture and met with them and have since then, none of my Jap friends have found my use of the term offensive.  So maybe it’s you with the problem.

Deliah says:

12:55pm | 14/01/10

@ Tim. I described para 10(c) table 1 accurately. I believe you are referring to para 10(d).

@ Bill. Yes, let us see what the court decides. I would be putting my money on the Sea Shepherd to win its case.

Chris says:

12:57pm | 14/01/10

“I do get emotional about this issue and that isn’t a bad thing”
James, James, James emotions can cloud ones better judgement. If you were to take a more unemotional analytic approach you may come to a different conclusion.

Freddo says:

12:58pm | 14/01/10

James,
your arguments have so far been:
its not OK to kill humans or whales because they’re mammals but its OK to kill cows even though they’re mammals.
Its OK to kill cows because they’re “farmed” but its not OK to kill whales because they’re not “farmed”. You didn’t respond when i asked you if you were going to protest your local Woolworths for selling kangaroo and fish even though both of these are not “farmed”. Southern Blue Fin tuna James?
Its OK to kill cows because it’s humane, but not whales because its inhumane. Somehow your views of what is humane should be legally enforceable over what the Japanese views are.
You have differing empathy levels for the killing of different animals. Some animals according to you are more “worthy”.

Hilarious stuff. You are a walking advertisement for the anti-environmentalist movement.
Oh and by the way, why would you assume that everyone who has argued against your silly argument is a “conservative”? Are those evil “conservatives’ out to get you James?
Its been fun reading your crazy posts James, i shall let you get back to ending injustice wherever it exists in your mind.

Bill says:

01:06pm | 14/01/10

Stick with me Jimmy Banana,

I will write this slowly so you can keep up.

Just because people don’t have empathy for whales doesn’t mean they’re psychopaths.

You called me Billy Boy, not my correct first name, so it was you who commenced the demonstrated lack of respect.  ‘Boy’ of course has at least two connotations one that I am young and inexperienced or two that of a African American slave (I can’t wait for Alice to back me on this and tell you not too use the term as it’s ‘offensive’).  That was followed by twerp, narrow minded, idiotic, old, grumpy and boring - in just one blog and you complain about being called little.  Well don’t whine about it, show people respect in the first place and you will get respect back.  ‘Little’ pales into insignificance in comparison.  You want people to respect whales, but you won’t respect other people…might be bipolar disorder…

‘Mr 2 degrees’ - you were the one that tried to assert you great authority on the topic.  Is it jealously or embarrassment for you to admit you’re not quiet the authority on psychopathy you thought you were?

‘Numero Uno’ - does your need to judge me placate you and foster your need to feel that your beliefs are the only correct ones?

You’re entitled to get emotional, but show more respect for yourself and your arguments by being articulate, your abuse does you and your belief great disservice.

Bill says:

01:08pm | 14/01/10

LOL Freddo, LOL!

James says:

01:22pm | 14/01/10

Freddo the fact that you have not got even one of my arguements doesn’t bode well for this debate, I might as well be debating a parrot.

I certainly don’t think the people I am argueing against are liberals that is for sure, your tone is conservative.  But hey maybe I got you wrong, you might be a mung bean eating hippy in disguise.

I think animals should only be killed if it is necessary, i.e. they are in plague proportions, or you need them to survive.  I certainly don’t think we should be eating any species who’s population health is in doubt, that goes for Blue Fin Tuna or anything else.  I believe a vegetable based diet is probably the best anyway.

“Anti-environmentalis movment”? I don’t think there is one.  There is simply those who have some understanding about how the natural world works and those that don’t.

James says:

01:28pm | 14/01/10

@Chris, if you saw an animal being tortured would you feel anything?

Bill says:02:08pm | 14/01/10

LOL Freddo, LOL!

Yes good one Freddo old chap!  You sure showed me.  Bill, maybe you and Freddo can pair up and keep each other chuckling at the nursing home.

Alice says:

01:28pm | 14/01/10

Bill: Okay I lied, I can’t resist.

“You have been told the term isn’t offensive by two posters and yes I too spent five years studying the Japanese culture and met with them and have since then, none of my Jap friends have found my use of the term offensive.  So maybe it’s you with the problem.”

Studying Japanese culture hardly compares to living there and interacting with Japanese people everyday. However, I’m astonished that someone could study Japanese culture for five years and not know that this term is derogatory. All I can conclude is that your studies must’ve been very selective.

It isn’t just “my” problem - the Oxford dictionary defines the word as offensive. It’s up there with “Nip” (I suppose you don’t think that’s offensive, either?). “Nip” is from the word “Nippon” which means “Japan”. So it’s “Jap” but in Japanese, if you like.

You can say that you don’t mean it disparagingly, but please, use your brain. You’re typing it on the internet, we don’t know anything about you except that you call yourself “Bill”, AND you’re using a term is generally considered to be offensive. For someone who claims that they don’t mean it offensively, that’s a pretty stupid thing to do, because obviously people are going to assume you DO mean it offensively (ESPECIALLY in the context of this discussion!).

“So the African Americans call each other ‘nigger’ and therefore that must be offensive to each other and yet they don’t appear to react as if it is to them.  It’s only when a white person uses the term that it is offensive (which is racist in itself).  Is it perhaps not taken offensively by African Americans because they know there isn’t any intent to offend.”

Correct. When people from outside of that race use the term, it’s offensive. I’m going to take a stab in the dark and say that you’re not Japanese, and therefore, this applies to you. Thank you for understanding that the term, when used by you, is offensive. As for it being racist in itself, that’s a whole other debate, but reading is your friend:

http://www.aaregistry.com/african_american_history/2420/Nigger_the_word_a_brief_history

Alice says:

01:32pm | 14/01/10

@Bill: Yes, “boy” could be considered offensive, especially if you are of African descent. Good to see that you’re learning.

Tim says:

01:40pm | 14/01/10

Deliah,
Para10(a) defines Sustainable Management Stocks (SMS)
Para10(b) defines Initial Management Stocks (IMS)
Para 10(c) defines Protection Stocks (PS)

only PS are covered by Para 19. All classifications are listed in Tables 1,2,3 in the schedule.

If you look at Table 1, Minke Whales in the southern hemisphere have not been classified. This is the loophole that the Japanese use to conduct their “scientific research”. And then, even if a motion to classify southern Minkes as PS was made, if the Japanese objected to the motion they would not be bound by it as the Norwegians have done in the North Atlantic.

Bill says:

01:44pm | 14/01/10

Alice,

‘For someone who claims that they don’t mean it offensively, that’s a pretty stupid thing to do, because obviously people are going to assume you DO mean it offensively (ESPECIALLY in the context of this discussion!).’

I am not responsible for you or anyone else placing your own interpretations, judgements and values on me and I don’t think I have to adjust my behaviours because you and other people have different beliefs to me.

What race has the right to tell other races how to behave and what to say?

‘Thank you for understanding that the term, when used by you, is offensive.’

Interesting, I never said that, but somewhere you think I did.  You believe it’s offensive, I don’t.

Funny how I am against the Sea Shepherd and the activists and also the Japs at the same time.

James says:

01:43pm | 14/01/10

Bill I am devestated I meant Billy Boy as a term of endearment, I know you aren’t a boy, I doubt you can even remember what it was like.

I have a degree a diploma and a masters, but more importantly I take an interest in learning about the world and it is this that has led me to the conclusion that our biosphere is in serious need of help.

Frankly I don’t respect your arguements, I find them silly and tired.  I respect your right to argue but not your actual arguement.

You also might like to put that noggin of yours to work, in finding out why Africans might find being called a nigger by a white person offensive.

I am a bit worried you are so cut off from your emotions, it might make it difficult for you to see things from a human perspective.  It also might make it difficult to see why killing a magnificient creature, in such a cruel way is a problem.

James says:

01:59pm | 14/01/10

I am begining to see a bit of a pattern here. 

Bill can’t put himself in the shoes of a Whale being harpooned, so HE doesn’t really have a problem with it.

He also can’t put himself in the shoes of a Black guy being called a nigger by a white guy, so HE has no problem with it.

He claims to be cut off from emotion but gets upset when people are mean to him.

In Bill’s world everything clearly revolves around him, you aren’t even a boy pal you have the mentality of an infant who cannot see beyond their own selfish needs.  Out

B S Goh says:

02:13pm | 14/01/10

I think we should settle this issue of Japanese whaling and the risk of extinction of the Minke whales in the Antarctica in the Australian way.

We each donate ten dollars to a prize fund. We give 20% of this prize to a scientist who can prove and publish in a reputable journal that the Japanese harvest of Minke can cause the extinction of the Minke whales. If this is achieved we then give the balance of the money to the Sea Shepherd.

On the other hand if first scientist who can publish a scientific paper within the last one year and the next one year we give him or her 1000 dollars. The balance we give it to a church to help the homeless in Australia.

Thus this game is loaded in favour of those against Japanese whaling so please stop complaining.

Let us not waste more time energy and diplomatic relations between countries on this whaling issue which is making Australia looking like a country inhabited by many ignorant and scientifically people.

Finally for those who are really against the harvest of whales which are in danger of extinction please join me to argue against scientists who support IWC decision to allow the natives of USA and Russia to strike 67 times against the Bowhead whales in the Arctic Ocean. At present there are about 10,000 Bowhead whales from an original population of about 200,000. I think this is bad science. From the whale population perspective it does not matter who is harvesting the highly endangered whale populations. We should not take a single Bowhead whales. Please get your facts right on who are the real baddies harvesting very endangered whales.

Also please join me to find ways to help me save the Blue whales. It is down to about 5,000 to 10,000 worldwide from an original population of more than 235,000.

I am very concerned about the real problems of the extinction of whale populations. I think it is foolish and waste of time and energy to worry about the abundant Minke whales.

I am against the Japanese taking any humback or fin whales.

Bill says:

02:15pm | 14/01/10

James (good to see the name respect thing has evolved)

‘He claims to be cut off from emotion but gets upset when people are mean to him.’

When did I make this claim?

‘In Bill’s world everything clearly revolves around him, you aren’t even a boy pal you have the mentality of an infant who cannot see beyond their own selfish needs.’

So I used to be Grandpa and now I am an infant?  My diagnosis of Bi-Polar Disorder is gaining credence.

Come on James you can do better than hurl petty insults, hold to your convictions and discuss the issues.  Read the posting policy while you’re at it, something about not abusing others which all whale lovers should embrace. In

B S Goh says:

02:17pm | 14/01/10

I think we should settle this issue of Japanese whaling and the risk of extinction of the Minke whales in the Antarctica in the Australian way.
We each donate ten dollars to a prize fund. We give 20% of this prize to a scientist who can prove and publish in a reputable journal that the Japanese harvest of Minke can cause the extinction of the Minke whales. If this is achieved we then give the balance of the money to the Sea Shepherd.
On the other hand if the first scientist who can publish a scientific paper within the last one year and the next one year we give him or her 1000 dollars. The balance we give it to a church to help the homeless in Australia.
Thus this game is loaded in favour of those against Japanese whaling so please stop complaining.
Let us not waste more time energy and diplomatic relations between countries on this whaling issue which is making Australia looking like a country inhabited by many scientifically ignorant people.
Finally for those who are really against the harvest of whales which are in danger of extinction please join me to argue against scientists who support IWC decision to allow the natives of USA and Russia to strike 67 times against the Bowhead whales in the Arctic Ocean. At present there are about 10,000 Bowhead whales from an original population of about 200,000. I think this is bad science. From the whale population perspective it does not matter who is harvesting the highly endangered whale populations. We should not take a single Bowhead whales. Please get your facts right on who are the real baddies harvesting really endangered whales.
Also please join me to find ways to help me save the Blue whales. It is down to about 5,000 to 10,000 worldwide from an original population of more than 235,000.
I am very concerned about the real problems of the extinction of whale populations. I think it is foolish and waste of time and energy to worry about the abundant Minke whales.
I am against the Japanese taking any humback or fin whales.

Scott Glennon says:

02:20pm | 14/01/10

@James, Bill & Alice

So… how’s about them whales? =)

James says:

02:44pm | 14/01/10

Sure B S Goh I’ll join you, first put your money where your mouth is and do something.  I doubt you will, I don’t think you care about Whales as much as you care about being right.  For someone so concerned about Whales you might like to consider that allowing the Japanese, who come from a wealthy country that doesn’t need to hunt Whales, to go Whaling may just be the thin end of the wedge.  I expect to see you at the next protest.

Bill your views are as old as a Grandpa and you seem to have the mentality of an infant, what a sad state to be in.  We are on the Punch btw, nut up or shut up.

Bill says:

02:45pm | 14/01/10

Tried that Scott, it didn’t work they didn’t want to talk about whales.

James says:

02:59pm | 14/01/10

I feel sorry for those on this forum who cannot appreciate the beauty and majesty of a creature like a Whale.  And instead of pitching in to defend these creatures can only carp on about humanities’ right to kill them.  You must lead a pretty dull life.

Ben says:

03:00pm | 14/01/10

I have spend the best part of 2 hours reading, analysing evaluating the debate between James, Freddo, Bill, Alice and Delilah.

In my opinion, if this was a formal debate, Bill would win.

*waits for conservative/liberal bash*

That’s all i have to say

Alice says:

03:17pm | 14/01/10

@ BS Goh:
“I think it is foolish and waste of time and energy to worry about the abundant Minke whales.”

As I’ve pointed out (twice now) we do not know that they are abundant.

@Scott: I was reluctant to go off on such a tangent as I did with Bill, but alas, I couldn’t help myself. But I have contributed plenty to the discussion of whales if you read my previous posts.

@Bill: See above.

Deliah says:

03:37pm | 14/01/10

@B S Goh. Remember the fin and the humpback whale are also on Japan’s hit list. The latter came very close to being wiped out, remains vulnerable and are the subject of a significant whale watching tourist industry.

@James. I have enjoyed your exchanges with Bill who seems to write a lot of non-sensical posts on a subject he claims he and most Australians are not interested in. It would be interesting to count all the posts from all the whale blogs in the last week. I think Japanese whaling might come out as the number one public interest issue.

Chris says:

04:04pm | 14/01/10

Trying to bring the subject back to Leos original point. Business vs whales.

Government and Japan Inc are very interconnected. Like it or not thats the reality. Mitsubishi on several occasions contemplated shutting their loss making Adelaide plant but John Howard always jumped on a plane to Tokyo and saved the day. In the middle of Rudds 2007/2008 war on whalers, about the same time he was tearing up of our security agreement with Japan, Mitsubishi decided it was finally time to pull the plug on Adelaide. Rudd unlike his predecessor was in no position to fly to Japan without it being a major embarresment.  So I believe Rudd may have provided Mitsubishi an easy exit. 
Another point Rudd now needs the yen carry trade more than ever.
Just food for thought and hypothesizing ofcourse.

B S Goh says:

04:38pm | 14/01/10

Firstly in spite of all the different comments we all share the common objective that we do not want ANY whale population to go extinct.

@ Alice. I do not know any scientific paper which says that Minke population in Antarctica is less than 300,000.

A very reliable and independent assessment on the health of a whale population is its age of sexual maturity. This can be precisely measure. There was a very significant decrease in this data for the Minke whales during the past 100 years.
. My view is that we should cull the Minke whales to reduce its competition to the Blue whales which is in extreme danger of extinction. The most worrying thing is the study by British scientists Atkinson et al in Nature (2004) that the krill, main food of Blue and Minke whales, has decreased very substantially because of global warming.

I think over the next ten years we must study whether or not the only way to save the Blue whales is to cull significantly the Minke whales. Most Australian farmers will agree with management procedures like this with their hands on knowledge of biological populations.
@Deliah . My main objection to Japanese harvesting the humpback whales is that it is of special interest to tourism in Australia. Again unfortunately there is no scientific basis to argue against harvesting.

The IWC basic management procedure is that no harvesting of a whale population should take place if a whale population is below seventy five percent of its original population. I used mathematics and proved rigorously that this leads to a a sustainable policy.

You will find that my contributions are considered major contributions to fisheries science in the review paper by Y Cohen, A review of harvest theory and applications of optimal control theory in fisheries management, Can. J. Fish. Aquatic. Sci. 44 (1987): pp 75-83. I was the first person in the world to bring rocket science to fisheries management.

I am very concerned about extinction of whales and I will actively protest against anyone who is a threat to any whale population. But we must be rational and justify our arguments by science and noit emotions.

James says:

09:32am | 15/01/10

B S Goh, I ask you just how successful have scientists been in protecting the environment of late by submitting very correct and accurate papers, with lots of correct maths that have been very well peer reviewed?  The answer, not very (I am in no way having a shot a climate scientists here or the very good work the vast majority of them do).  Climate change is a classic case.  We have all the evidence on our side and yet, boneheads seem to be prevailing.

My concern is that despite the correctness of your maths your theories will come to nothing in the real world.  Whaling is an issue of pride and culture, not rationality.  As is over consumption leading to climate change.  What we really need is a concerted effort to stop overfishing, stop whaling, change culture you are dancing around the edges, only radical change has any chance of saving us and whales.  You say whales aren’t in danger, well the ocean are becoming more acidic, who knows how quickly marine populations might decline.

I have a degree in maths and physics but I have learned that bonehead power, and bloody minded pride trumps any cleverness.  It is time to fight fire with fire, I don’t doubt with your intelligence we will see you on the barricades.

I ask Bill et. al. this simple question can you appreciate nature for things other than its utility to the “smart” ape?

B S Goh says:

10:33am | 15/01/10

@ James. I agree with you that there are a lot of limitations in using mathematics in the management of biological population. This is precisely the focus of my recent research paper in Evolutionary Ecology Research, 11 (2009) 1-11. In this paper I describe when you can and when you cannot use mathematics in the management of biological populations.

Whale populations are in fact among the easiest populations to model mathematically and accurately because of its low fecundity. On the other hand it is hard to use mathematical models to study the krill as their fecundity is about 10,000 and it may breed once or twice a year.

I have tried to bring the science of the management dynamical systems subject to significant uncertainties to fisheries management. The techniques were developed in managing rocket trajectories.

There is in fact a lot of scientific knowledge on whale populations which are not in dispute.

The only endangered whale species that is harvested is the Bowhead whales in the Arctic which feed on krill. There are about 10,000 Bowhead whales out of its original population of about 200,000. That is at about the five percent level. To make matters worse global warming has caused the sharp decline in the krill biomass since 1970s.

So in opinion the Australian Government should get really serious about saving whales from extinction. We should stop wasting money sending people overseas to do politics and talk scientific nonsense on the Japan harvest of the Minke whales in Antarctica. We should save this money and contribute to an International Fund to buy Minke whale meat and give it to the natives in USA and Russia. We should stop the harvest of the Bowhead whales. IWC allows these natives to strike 67 times a year to catch the Bowhead whales. I believe they should stop harvesting the Bowhead whales as soon as possible.

Heather says:

11:02am | 15/01/10

“BMJ says:05:13pm | 12/01/10

We, as a society are spineless”

No. We, as a society, are misinformed hypocrites. The Japanese are hunting (rightly or wrongly) 1600-odd Minkes in a population of 500,000. Norway hunt 1200-odd in a population of 200,000 yet no one says bo-peep about that. When indigenous populations hunt seals, etc, we say nothing because it is a part of their “culture” and we cannot say anything about it out of a sense of guilt (rightly or wrongly).

Yet the Japanese have a culture we don’t understand, either.

I wonder how much of this is based on the old “OMG Asians!” stereotype and good ol’ racism.

For the record, so long as a species are not close to being endangered (Minkes aren’t), I don’t really see the problem. Focus time and money on species that really are dying out, I reckon.

James says:

11:07am | 15/01/10

@B S Goh, I believe they should stop harvesting the Bowhead whales as soon as possible.

On that point we are in total agreement.  The fact remains that Minke whales are a protected species, if we start allowing them to be hunted for meat we are on the slippery slope to no protection.

Make no mistake, biodiversity is across the globe is under massive threat as you well know.  I think compromise on certain things is not an option.  Let us instead send high quality beef to Natives in the USA and Russia if they need to eat meat.  Cultures are not static, strong ones adapt to changing circumstances, no culture will survive a dead biosphere you of all people should know that.

James says:

12:58pm | 15/01/10

@Heather

“For the record, so long as a species are not close to being endangered (Minkes aren’t), I don’t really see the problem. Focus time and money on species that really are dying out, I reckon”.

Heather let me show you why your arguements are misguided, we are not asking for spending money on conservation programs i.e. captive breeding etc. we are asking people not to hunt a protected species for meat.  Do you realise the difference?

Bob says:

02:10pm | 15/01/10

Comments from readers such as Ian demonstrate how ignorant aussies can be. Thus, the aussie public is a prime target for sea shepperd propaganda and it works! Oh yeah, we must all hate the japs so much, they are so barbaric and deceitful, to hunt whales in open waters and making them suffer tremendously! I mean, its not as if white man hunts whales at all.. oh wait, i guess they do, and more than the proclaimed evil japs too.. oh my.

Aussies = bunch of ignorant, racists hypocrites the world could care less about. Shout louder Mr. Rudd, maybe somewhere, another country may give a damn and run a news story about what we down here think. Or maybe he hasn’t recovered from all the negative media coverage he got globally during Nopenhagen..

Scott Glennon says:

03:02pm | 15/01/10

@Bob,

I’m not sure what is wrong with you. Perhaps you should do some research on the Sea Sheppard causes. They also condemn Whaling by other nations like Norway. It would be best for you to take your racial dispute elsewhere, as it would appear there’s more interest in Whales in this discussion then your banter.

Bob says:

06:09pm | 15/01/10

Condemn Norway’s whaling? Don’t be a tool.. you dont see SS out there throwing acid bombs on norwegian ships right in their backyard. There’s more active commercial whaling right next door to SS’s HQ. But they insist on sailing all the way south to terrorize japanese boats? Guess why that would be the case?

And if its not about race why do aussies on this site and other news site always comment specifically to it, as if the japanese people are inherently untrustworthy or evil (just read the other punch whaling article with 310+ comments). Open your eyes please, the aussie public is being exploited by SS for publicity and $$ because they fully understand there is an underlying hatred towards the “japs”. They are right and it works.

No other country gets so hysterical, i mean the rest of the EU dont give a damn about the whaling that goes on in their waters. Yet aussies seem to be frothing at the mouth in their condemnation of the japs stealing “our whales” in “our waters”.

Man says:

09:35am | 16/01/10

Whales aren’t at fault for dwindling fish stocks Robert (05:46pm | 12/01/10)! It is the destruction of our coastal habitats which prevent the spawning of plankton, which the krill feed on, that is at fault.

Yes, it will affect trade with Japan. For a little while. Not EVERY Japanese person is pro-whale so trade will not disappear completely. Allowing the whalers to destroy our whale populations will have many effects:
Sharks who would normally feed on whales will look for prey closer to our shores.
Deep sea ecosystems which depend on whale carcasses will be destroyed.
One for the politicians - Marine tourism, worth hundreds of millions to this country, will be affected.

If no-one cares anymore, say goodbye to the visual delight that is the annual whale migration. Abbott’s reluctance is basically an invite for Japanese whalers to make a mess of our backyard and have us clean up after they’re done.

AJ of Here says:

04:45pm | 16/01/10

James, do you realise that the Minke is NOT endangered, and that it is outfeeding the Blue Whales to death? You, sir, are a “useful idiot”

James says:

10:12am | 18/01/10

@ AJ of Here, well at least I am useful.  The Minke may or may not be endangered (that is not as black or white as you claim), but it is protected.  I suspect that the Minke whale is not the only reason blue whales are endangered.

The status of protected must mean something i.e. we don’t hunt that species for meat or it becomes useless.  We can’t set the precedent that some protected species are more protected than others.

Chewy says:

12:55pm | 18/01/10

“No other country gets so hysterical, i mean the rest of the EU dont give a damn about the whaling that goes on in their waters. Yet aussies seem to be frothing at the mouth in their condemnation of the japs stealing “our whales” in “our waters”. “
@Bob, very very good point. Reading comments you only have to scratch the surface to see the issue is more about “bloody japs”.
I also find it curious that our media like to paint the Indian media as emotional, hysterical and unsophisticated but on the issue of Japanese whaling veteran journalists who should no better fall into the same trap. Emotions kill rational thinking.
http://changingminds.org/explanations/emotions/emotion_rationality.htm

James says:

01:54pm | 18/01/10

Just targeting Japanese?  If you bozos did even the slightest bit of research you would know that Sea Shepard have sunk Norwegian ships engaged in Whaling.

http://www.seashepherd.org/whales/

Tim says:

03:33pm | 18/01/10

James,
if you did even the slightest bit of research or even read the comments above then you wouldn’t be sprouting off about the Minke whale being a “Protected Species”.
What is a Protected Species and where can one find the classification of such?

Chewy says:

03:53pm | 18/01/10

James, no doubt Watson and seashepherds heart is pure in regards to sea mammals, though I question their tactics and track record with telling the truth. I do notice no mention of Denmark in the dolphin section of seashepherd website, but they do mention one other country.
My comment was more about the media and public anger. As one previous comment put where was the outrage,embassy protests, headline news, Punch blogs etc when Norway announced a substantial increased hunt ? Certainly not here or in Europe.
You would be forgiven for thinking a whale killed by the Japanese is worth more than a whale killed by a Norwegian.

Scott Glennon says:

04:06pm | 18/01/10

@James, Chewy & Bob

Thankyou James, maybe another chance to do some research will educate the likes of Bob.

My guess Bob would be that the hysteria is the whole point, Australia gives the SS and other anti Whaling organisations the coverage that they seek and need to make a difference. You will find other countries refuse the media the right to even film the actions of Whalers and Sealers. Therefore the media coverage is nil and you nor I hear about it unless you make the effort to click on the link provided by James.

I maintain that the SS, Australia nor this article is not promoting racial hate toward Japan, but hate only to the actions which the SS consider illegal.
I’d suggest that you Bob have some underlying issues regarding racism in Australia and have managed to manifest it here, from the use of the politically incorrect yet completely legal term “Jap.”

Unless you can prove the posters or all of Australia is racist your argument remains pointless.

James says:

08:31am | 19/01/10

I have actually talked to people on board sea shepard ships, my girlfriend actually asked them whether they disliked the Japanese, they took it as an affront.  Their motives are purely about protecting Minke Whales which are a protected species.

http://www.nmfs.noaa.gov/pr/species/mammals/cetaceans/minkewhale.htm

I was very impressed by the sea sheppard crew, they are extremely passionate about conservation, polite to the public and very brave to do what they do.  I am yet to see the character of those who question their actions.

AJ of Here says:

08:56am | 19/01/10

James, you can “suspect” all you want. But you have no hard proof that goes against what is said. You are useful only insofar as you prop up a fascist regime. If you are content with that, then Darwin was wrong. Survival of the fittest is been proven to be incorrect.

Tim says:

08:58am | 19/01/10

James,
thats a nice link you provided on how Minke Whales are protected in US waters.
I know there are many countries who have similar legislation.
Now maybe you can tell us what US legislation have to do with the status of the Minke in international waters? Team America, World Police perhaps?
And don’t bring up Australian Territorial waters as it has been shown that Australia would lose any claim to these waters if it was taken to international court and may actually be breaching its own treaty obligations by doing so.
Scientifically BS Goh has shown that the Minke whale is in no danger of becoming extinct, yet you ignore him.
Legally i have shown that the Japanese actions, while questionable, are extremely unlikely to be taken to court or have adverse findings made against them for the various reasons i have mentioned in the comments above.
As for you comments on the Sea Shepard crew, a polite and passionate criminal is still a criminal.
Its OK that you don’t agree with Japanese whaling but don’t pretend it is based on anything other than your own moral grounds.

James says:

03:58pm | 19/01/10

The Minke is in appendix 1.  Checkmate!

http://www.cites.org/eng/app/e-appendices.pdf

Deliah says:

08:42am | 20/01/10

This conversation seems to have gone on a Minke tangent. Whatever the species of whale, the method of killing them is unquestionably cruel.

Now that Kevin is back from his Tasmanian trek has he uttered a word about the whaling issue? Hopefully a brave journalist will ask what is he going to do about his election promise of taking Japan to the International Court of Justice.

Tim says:

08:46am | 20/01/10

James,
you silly silly boy. I told you to do your research before coming back.
I’ve already been over this with Deliah and you obviously didn’t read Aritcle III of the CITES convention.
From the CITES convention text:
Article III
2. The export of any specimen of a species included in Appendix I shall require the prior grant and presentation of an export permit. An export permit shall only be granted when the following conditions have been met:
(a) a Scientific Authority of the State of export has advised that such export will not be detrimental to the survival of that species;
(b) a Management Authority of the State of export is satisfied that the specimen was not obtained in contravention of the laws of that State for the protection of fauna and flora;
(c) a Management Authority of the State of export is satisfied that any living specimen will be so prepared and shipped as to minimize the risk of injury, damage to health or cruel treatment; and
(d) a Management Authority of the State of export is satisfied that an import permit has been granted for the specimen.
3. The import of any specimen of a species included in Appendix I shall require the prior grant and presentation of an import permit and either an export permit or a re-export certificate. An import permit shall only be granted when the following conditions have been met:
(a) a Scientific Authority of the State of import has advised that the import will be for purposes which are not detrimental to the survival of the species involved;
(b) a Scientific Authority of the State of import is satisfied that the proposed recipient of a living specimen is suitably equipped to house and care for it; and
(c) a Management Authority of the State of import is satisfied that the specimen is not to be used for primarily commercial purposes.

In other words James, the export or import country (Japan) can issue permits legally allowing trade in Appendix 1 species. The Japanese get to decide if what they are doing is legal. And apart from this, Japan can leave the CITES convention at any time they wish.

What were you saying about Chess?

James says:

11:09am | 20/01/10

Timmy old fella you are kind of missing the point, the fact remains that this is an international convention and the Minke Whale is listed as endangered, that is their status in international waters buddy.  Whether you like it or not most laws derive from moral principles and the preference of the majority and the majority of people don’t want Minke whales on the dinner plate.

Checkmate was what I was saying about Chess.

James says:

11:20am | 20/01/10

Timmy boy see the the resolution by the IWC:
(Let me know when you have had enough and want to tap out).

As stated in Resolution 2007-1 below:

RECALLING that the Commission has repeatedly requested Contracting Parties to refrain from issuing special permits for research involving the killing of whales within the Southern Ocean Sanctuary, has expressed deep concern at continuing lethal research within the Southern Ocean Sanctuary, and has also recommended that scientific research involving the killing of cetaceans should only be permitted where critically important research needs are addressed;

the IWC is:

CONVINCED that the aims of JARPA II do not address critically important research needs;

the IWC:

FURTHER CALLS UPON the Government of Japan to suspend indefinitely the lethal aspects of JARPA II conducted within the Southern Ocean Whale Sanctuary.

Tim says:

11:50am | 20/01/10

James my boy,
i feel you are the one not getting the point.
The CITES convention deals only with the international trade of endangered species. 
It gives no status to the animal in the wild, just to the trade of that animal between countries.
I have shown that by Japan issuing permits, trade of the Minke Whale is completely legal.
The status of animals in international waters is based on International treaties between countries. For whales this is the IWC.
Commercial whaling of the Minke has been suspended by the IWC, they have not classified the Minke as protected.
And as table 1 of the IWC convention schedule shows, Minke whales have not been classified as a protection stock in the Southern Hemisphere:
http://www.iwcoffice.org/_documents/commission/scheduletables.pdf
As for the resolution you wrote, so what? Resolutions in the IWC are not binding if an objection by that country is made? This is how Norway whales Minkes in the North Atlantic where Minkes are classified as a protection stock.
Further any country that wishes can leave these treaties at any time and not be bound by them.

That buddy is the status of the Minke whether you like it or not.
I have already been through this with Deliah.
Tell me when you want to tap out Pal.

James says:

01:04pm | 20/01/10

Timbo you argue as if you are a lawyer for the Japanese whaling fleet.  I think you will find that most people do not believe the Japanese are whaling for scientific reasons and if it comes to the crunch they will not be able to prove they are, what’s more they have found that Whale ends up on Japanese dinner plates.

That resolutions comes from the IWC not from me.

http://www.iwcoffice.org/Meetings/resolutions/resolution2007.htm

You haven’t even answered Deliah’s posts you have just unilaterally declared them invalid.

We have a very good relationship with Japan, I doubt, when push comes to shove,  the Japanese government would seriously contest Australia’s territorial claim to the waters in which Japanese whalers are operating, why would they, it is a completely unecessary activity.

You can continue to flail about or accept defeat on this.

B S Goh says:

08:08pm | 20/01/10

From all the comments we have read we can see that we keep wandering away from the main issues. First y does the harvesting of Minke whales by Japan, Norway and Iceland lead to the extinction of Minke whales. The answer is simply no. I do not know a single scientific paper which says it will be especially if the IWC Revised Management Procedure (RMP) is followed. This means that if the Minke populations fall below seventy five percent of its original population all harvesting should stop, period and no argument from anyone or nation. I shall then add my voice in protest.

Secondly how can we save the Blue whales if its main food the krill biomass continue to decline substantially because of global warming?

Thirdly should we stop and how to do the harvesting of the extremely endangered Bowhead whale by natives in USA and Russia. Is this problem becoming more critical if the main food of the Bowhead keep getting less due to global warming.

On the basis that Japan is engaged in “Scientific Research” the gossip is that it was a suggestion that Japan should have that position for public consumption. It was apparently proposed by some Americans to the Japanese and the polite Japanese used it. There are some Australians scientists who were then at those meetings at IWC. It would be interesting if they can confirm or debunk this gossip. I was not there at that time.

It is sad but there is simply too much politics at IWC . This has been like that for more than twenty years and the real scientific issues get lost or become to hot to handle.

Readers may like to know for an example I quote:  In 1993 - In its effort to promote preservation over conservation, the IWC routinely ignores the findings of its own scientific committee. In 1993, the IWC scientific committee chairman, Philip Hammond, resigned in disgust. The whaling ban had “nothing to do with science ...In its effort to promote preservation over conservation, the IWC routinely ignores the findings of its own scientific committee. In 1993, the IWC scientific committee chairman, Philip Hammond, resigned in disgust. The whaling ban had “nothing to do with science,” he said, and the work of the scientific committee was “held in ... disregard by the body to which it is responsible.” The case of the diminutive minke (the smallest of the baleen whales at only 30 feet long) is a good example.

James says:

09:03am | 21/01/10

B S Goh I submit then that instead of wasting time by Whaling let’s tackle the root cause of the decline in Krill, let us tackle global warming.  No amount of Whaling Minke’s will save the blue whale if krill die out.

B S Goh says:

09:58am | 21/01/10

Thanks James. As I have said we ALL in fact share the common objective to SAVE each and everyone of the whale species. We differ on to achieve this common objective.

The bigger and more important issue for us as a Nation from this whaling controversy is how the Government can get itself into the present position on an important public scientific issue like whaling.

For discussion sake assume for a moment what I said is correct scientifically. This is that the harvesting of Minke by the Japanese will not lead to its extinction in the Southern Ocean. What do you think the Japanese diplomats think when Australian diplomats come and tell the Japanese that they are wrong scientifically and that Japan’s whaling will lead to the extinction of the Minke whales. The Japanese are the most advanced nation in fisheries research. I think the Japanese diplomats would probably ask an author to write a book on how the Australian Govt is behaving like the de facto Govt, the Church, that persecuted Galileo and others umpteen years ago because they say the Earth moves round the Sun.

The Australian Govt should get the best scientific advice in the World on this issue. We do have people who can give scientific advice if asked in confidence and directly the question: Will the Japanese harvesting of Minke leads to its extinction?

Once the Australian get the correct scientific it should take the people into its confidence and say: The Australian Government and people are against the harvesting of Minke whales for Ethical reasons. It is wrong to kill any of these beautiful creatures. We have been advised by some scientists that the current Japanese harvesting of Minke currently will not lead to its extinction. We shall monitor the position carefully and if the threat of extinction arise we will vigorously take actions to stop the Japanese whaling. In this way all the people in Asia will respect us as an Advanced Nation.

Once the above position is stated the Japanese will stop harvesting the humpbacks whales in ONE meeting. Australia position should be that it is of very special interest to Australian tourism industry. By the way I cannot determine what is the latest Japanese position on this humpback whale issue. Are they going to catch any humpback whale this year?

James says:

03:55pm | 21/01/10

The real issue is that the Japanese are defying the IWC with bollocks about whaling for scientific reasons (in a whale sanctuary), I really don’t care whether they say it won’t lead to the extinction of the Minke whale, they shouldn’t be there in the first place. 

It is now a diplomatic problem.  We all know that whale research can be conducted without killing the whales, I encourage the Japanese to do that instead.  I’m sure you prefer that your data came from a live whale than a dead one.