While devastating floodwaters recede in the north even as they rise in the south, Australians are understandably shocked by what has occurred in the past few weeks.

It could happen again. Photo: Getty Images.

The extent of the tragedy and loss of life, property and infrastructure is indeed numbing.  It is heartbreaking.  And it is incomprehensible to those of us not directly involved.

But the downpour, while rare, is not of itself unique.

The lessons of history point to similar events of equal or even greater magnitude peppered relatively regularly through the 200 plus year of our recorded history (and indeed alluded to in indigenous Dreamtime stories).

In Brisbane and Ipswich the flood of 1974 is “living memory” legend.  But in fact the Brisbane River experienced major flood incidents in 1841, 1890, 1893, 1931 and 1974.  Indeed, the highest to date was the 1841 flood, and the highest in the Brisbane CBD was the 1893 flood. 

That’s an average of a major flood less than every 30 years.  And they are even more frequent on the Bremer River, which runs through Ipswich.

Yet for some reason, prior to this month, many people seemed to adopt an “it couldn’t happen again” approach and turned a blind eye to the lessons of history.

Instead of actively planning for the inevitable reoccurrence of a devastating flood, it appears that many town planners, engineers and above all their political masters, have simply denied the past.

Yes, the Wivenhoe Dam was built as part of a flood mitigation strategy after 1974.  But in recent times it wasn’t managed as part of that strategy.  Water was kept in storage rather than released ahead of the big wet – almost in denial of the Dam’s original purpose.

Maybe those in charge too readily believed the hype of Flannery and his alarmist friends that the human race had become all-powerful “weather makers” scorching the earth.  Certainly in 2007 former Queensland Premier Peter Beattie argued that it would never rain to such an extent again due to mankind’s impact on the planet.

Conveniently, the “big wet” is now being blamed on climate change, just as the drought before it was.

But these cyclical weather patterns, with random extreme events, have always been part of our nation’s and indeed our planet’s history.  They are not new.  They are not more ferocious.  They are not “payback” for the Queensland Coal Industry (thanks for that inane contribution Bob Brown). 

They are not nature’s way of punishing modern man for his sins.  They are simply natural events.

Tragically, more people and property are affected in a modern event than in those of the past because we have so many more people living in flood prone areas. 

And because we have, to some extent, either ignored the lessons of the past or somehow arrogantly assumed that we have the power to alter age-old weather phenomena.

With the clean up in Queensland, NSW and Tasmania underway and some towns in Victoria and South Australia still facing threats, many argue now is not the time for recriminations.

But the time will come when, instead of denying the predictability of such an event and feebly arguing that nothing could have been done or, at the other extreme, attributing it all to man’s impact on our planet, we should get out the history books and take a close look at what happened in the past – even before man started pumping CO2 into the atmosphere.

We should learn the lessons of the past, know that another extreme event is inevitable, and we should use all our technology and resources to ensure we are better prepared to mitigate the impact of such an event. 

Man won’t stop flooding rains, droughts or bushfires – but we can manage our built environment and environmental assets in a way that ensures their effect is less devastating.

It would only compound the tragedy if, in our shock and grief, we deny the lessons of history and stumble forward with an “it couldn’t happen again” approach.

150 comments

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    • The Black Knight says:

      06:32am | 19/01/11

      “But in recent times it wasn’t managed as part of that strategy.  Water was kept in storage rather than released ahead of the big wet – almost in denial of the Dam’s original purpose.”

      You have no idea of what you’re talking about, do you?

      1. Had water been released, in the way the right now claim it should have, and the ‘big wet’ didn’t come. You would be the first out of the blocks to complain about water management incompetence. Isn’t uneducated hindsight a wonder thing.

      2. SEQwater have been releasing water from Wivenhoe Dam since Nov 4th 2010.
      http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/queensland/water-released-from-full-wivenhoe-dam/story-e6freoof-1225933776732

      “It comes as the Weather Bureau warns that the rain-bearing La Nina conditions will boost the odds of a more active than normal cyclone season”

    • TChong says:

      06:45am | 19/01/11

      Black Knight - uneducated hindsight is Sen Sophies schtick.
      The shadow minister of “innovation ” who finds the ‘net too compolicated is yet to show any insight into any topic, or even release some type of outline of any policy or even an idea about anything.
      Dont know what she is actually paid to do.

    • MarK says:

      07:19am | 19/01/11

      Are you serious?

      1. This is a construct of your own mind. It is not based on fact. It is a fantasy you cooked up to attempt to give your tale a bit of credibility. Making up stuff to back up a point you wish to make on pure ideologically grounds is intellectually lazy and merely shows the weakness of your argument.

      2. Yes? And? http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/far-too-much-water-left-in-the-dam/story-e6frg6zo-1225990589929

      There is just one story that backs Sophie’s claim. Sort of makes your second point slightly redundant now doesn’t it.

      Capital F for Fail on you post. I will borrow a phrase to describe your post,

      “You have no idea of what you’re talking about, do you?”

    • Richard says:

      07:22am | 19/01/11

      No, that’s nonsense. Meteorology, despite being widely ridiculed, is actually very accurate in predicting these sort of super patterns such as the La Nina we are experiencing. There was no chance of these rains not eventuating. Everyone knew we are in for soaking rains this summer but SEQwater didn’t act decisively enough.

      Besides, we’ve got other options like desal and recycled to use in a pinch, so why did they take the risk to try and fill wivanhoe to the brim? (and in doing so compromise the dam’s original purpose of flood mitigation)

    • mags says:

      07:56am | 19/01/11

      As usual Black Knight you accuse someone of ignorance, aided ans abetted by that other no brainer, T Chong. Water was released from Wivenhoe Dam but only enough to keep the level at 100% capacity. If you must call someone a liar at least be able to back it up with FACT

    • Davida says:

      08:02am | 19/01/11

      “......so why did they take the risk to try and fill wivanhoe to the brim?”
      The issue with making water a saleable assett is nobody (government, corporations, bureaucrats on the payroll and shareholders) want to see potential profits go down the drain (literally).  Campbell Newman has “generously” offered $100 off water rates on the next bill to assist with cleanup.  Disheartening to many who flooded with “free” water in the first place.

    • The Black Knight says:

      08:07am | 19/01/11

      @MarK

      Ignorance is bliss. The 100% figure is the drinking water level. That 100% represents 40% of the dams overall capacity. Its maximum capacity is 225 per cent.

      The article I linked to is fact. Are you suggesting that SEQwater lied in October last year that they were releasing water?

      btw, the article I linked to and the article you linked both refer to the same warnings by BOM. So your claim that I just made it all up is BS.

      @Richard

      It was not filled to the brim. Overall it was only filled to 40% of it’s capacity. The other 60% is for flood mitigation.

    • MarK says:

      08:33am | 19/01/11

      “The Black Knight says:

      08:07am | 19/01/11

      @MarK”

      Well howdy again soldier. I see reading comprehension is not your strong suit.

      “Ignorance is bliss. The 100% figure is the drinking water level. That 100% represents 40% of the dams overall capacity. Its maximum capacity is 225 per cent.”

      That’s nice.

      “The article I linked to is fact. Are you suggesting that SEQwater lied in October last year that they were releasing water?”

      No. Point to anywhere I said that. Point to anywhere I even remotely inferred that.

      Let me repeat. Stop making stuff up to attempt to back up a totally flawed argument. It is unseemly to see you flop around from exaggeration to fantasy like this to rescue a null argument.

      You said in you original point 2 this “SEQwater have been releasing water from Wivenhoe Dam since Nov 4th 2010.”

      I linked an article that has claims that not enough was released sort of making you point redundant and Sophie’s proven from available evidence. It is like saying he slowed down before the accident on the residential street….from 160km/h to 140km/h. He slowed…sure….but did he do enough.

      That is Sophie is saying, that is what many others are saying. Was enough released at the appropriate time.

      Do try and keep up. It really isn’t that hard.

      “btw, the article I linked to and the article you linked both refer to the same warnings by BOM. So your claim that I just made it all up is BS.”

      HAHAHAHA.

      Really? When did I say you made up anything to do with the BOM or the warnings about el nina. Really that is comprehension fail.

      I said you made up your point 1 - which you did. Since you struggle to remember what you write let me remind you

      “1. Had water been released, in the way the right now claim it should have, and the ‘big wet’ didn’t come. You would be the first out of the blocks to complain about water management incompetence. Isn’t uneducated hindsight a wonder thing.”

      You have taken a scenario where the floods didn’t happen and projected your own thoughts and prejudices onto it AFTER you add the other event which didn’t happen, that is, some fantasy complaint Sophie would have made if the event you made up had happened.

      You made up the following

      a. Release of water that didn’t occur here ” Had water been released, in the way the right now claim it should” your words say it didn’t happen like that

      b.Sophie would have complained here “You would be the first out of the blocks to complain about water management incompetence” - pure conjecture brought about by your prejudices and ideology

      c. And then some line here ” Isn’t uneducated hindsight a wonder thing.” where obviously Sophie is speaking form educated hindsight anyway.

      You see? So I am totally correct when I said you made up EVERYTHING in your point 11 and this line by you

      “So your claim that I just made it all up is BS.”

      is another fallacy.

      Can’t wait for the next instalment by you. Please do play again.

    • The Black Knight says:

      10:39am | 19/01/11

      @MarK

      Point one was my opinion. Do you understand the difference between opinion and making stuff up? From your response clearly not.

      As to the rest. Your entire argument is based on hindsight. You claim now that SEQwater were not releasing enough. OK fine.  Where you and Andrew Dragun or Sophie in November last year? Can you provide any quotes of any of you saying that more water needs to be released.

      Like I said uneducated hindsight is bliss. And if you want to talk about argument in hindsight. Should we blame Sir Joh Bjelke-Petersen and the Nationals for the 1974 flood? The National had been in office for 17 years and Joh had been Premier for 6 years. They did nothing to protect Brisbane despite Wivenhoe been identified as a flood mitigation dam site.

      See how easy it is to win an argument in hindsight.

    • TheRealDave says:

      10:46am | 19/01/11

      So linking ‘Opinion’ pieces now a substitute for expert discussion? Dam Operators need ‘balls’ now?

      We have had 10 years of drought up here. About 2 years ago we were down to 17% drinking water in Wivenhoe and we were serioulsy looking at recycling our own sewerage and built billion dollar desal plants. What idiot is going to throw away a few years of drinking water incase of major rainfall - when the dam is designed to hold 225% capacity and you are sitting on 100% ??

      Mondays experts, good song that one, apt.

      Just another piss poor attempt at political point scoring by Mirabella et al.

    • Matt says:

      11:10am | 19/01/11

      I fully agree with point 1. If they had dropped the dam’s level to say 20% (or 50% of water drinking capacity) and the ‘big wet’ didnt come, I believe they would be flamed and abused. Opinion pieces, opposition government and the media in general serve to critique all decisions made holding the knowledge of hindsight. It’s a lose lose situation for SEQwater really.

      But I guess people are angry about the damage the flood has caused and want to blame someone.

    • MarK says:

      11:31am | 19/01/11

      I see BK.

      So you start off your with this

      “You have no idea of what you’re talking about, do you? “

      That is the accusation you levelled at Sophie.

      To justify it you used - your words - your opinion.

      Awesome. You think Sophie has no idea what she is talking about becasue that is your opinion. This is NOT BASED off anything she wrote.

      Can I asked then why did you bother responding to the piece? It makes no sense. Do you just follow Liberal senators randonly around the net and make opinion based judgements on them…backed up with more of your opinion.

      Fun life I guess.

      “As to the rest. Your entire argument is based on hindsight. You claim now that SEQwater were not releasing enough. OK fine.  Where you and Andrew Dragun or Sophie in November last year? Can you provide any quotes of any of you saying that more water needs to be released. “

      Your reading comprehension is now beyond doubt small.

      No. I did not contend that they were not releasing enough. That claim was made by this guy

      “Andrew Dragun is an adjunct professor in economics at the Australian Rivers Institute, Griffith University. He is editor of the International Journal of Water.”

      Ypu made a claim based on SEQ Water releasing water form the dam in an effort to debunk Sophie’s claim.

      See this is some factual evidence - quite separate from your opinion - that I refuted with some other evidence. It matters not where I was or what I was doing.

      What matters is working out some facts. Not opinions.

      Go back and read what you wrote.

      The first point is fantasy - your opinion.

      The second point is fact based and I offered up a counter argument saying there are experts that believe not enough was done. Which agree with Sophie’s point or vice versa, whatever floats your boat.

      It makes your opening opinion, that Sophie didn’t know what she was talking about look foolish, churlish, unsubstantiated and wrong.

      I probably missed a few adjectives and left a few of the more derogatory out. Hmmm maybe I have misread you…....was that actually the look you were going for?

      Keep going. I am having a good laugh here.

    • The Black Knight says:

      11:52am | 19/01/11

      @MarK

      Your strew reserves must be running low now.

      Yes point 1 was opinion and point 2 was fact. I’m sorry in hindsight I should reversed them.

      So your not making the claim that SEQwater didn’t release enough water but you did link to the guy who was. I hope you’re not going to claim now that you linked to an article that you disagree with?

      I linked to what SEQwater was doing before the rains. This is fact. You linked to a guy who for some reason chose not to mention any of this. In fact, he claimed the opposite that SEQwater was not releasing water. Tell me was his piece and opinion of fantasy based in hindsight?

    • Gladys says:

      12:20pm | 19/01/11

      Actually, this is a question a lot of us are asking in Brisbane. Our wet months are February March, so water that was collecting in the second half of last year should have been releaased.

      But we were just in a drought. It’s very hard to let water go following a drought. I found myself doing it the other day: the dam was at 183% and I still filled a bowl of water rather than the whole sink to do some washing up.

    • MarK says:

      12:49pm | 19/01/11

      Oh dear BK you are struggling.

      You really don’t get it do you.

      You made this claim re Sophie

      “You have no idea of what you’re talking about, do you? “

      You based that claim on personal opinion and a fact.

      You know are trying to say I don’t believe the article I linked? What? Desperate much? What is it with you and putting words and thoughts in peoples mouths and minds respectively.

      And then you have this gem.

      “I linked to what SEQwater was doing before the rains. This is fact. You linked to a guy who for some reason chose not to mention any of this.”

      Oh really. REALLY?

      Remember what I said about reading comprehension. But you did not stop there. You went on;

      “In fact, he claimed the opposite that SEQwater was not releasing water.”

      And of course you couldn’t resist. You went in for the “kill”

      “Tell me was his piece and opinion of fantasy based in hindsight? “

      If you care to read the piece I linked then go to paragraph 8. Hell read the whole thing. Because you seem to struggle with words here is paragraph 8.

      “Since last October the Wivenhoe operator has had three warnings. On October 13 the dam reached 126 per cent of capacity, on October 21 it reached 111 per cent, and on December 29 it reached 123 per cent. In each case the operator reduced the water level only to 100 per cent.”

      He mentioned it. Gawd. Are you for real? So I hope you now concede his piece was factual and contained exactly what you mentioned and has different conclusions to you - in fact conclusions that gel with the writings of Sophie.

      You were wrong on both counts. Just stop. It must be embarrassing being you.

      Please, please read and comprehend and then write. I like a challenge in argument. Would anyone out there like to help BK?

    • Bitten says:

      01:16pm | 19/01/11

      “Uneducated hindsight” - love!

    • Freeman says:

      01:27pm | 19/01/11

      @ Black Knight.

      “Every major scientific institution on this planet claims that AGW is real and happening. My choices are to believe them or a bunch of people who are all seem to be right wing”

      two interesting points to be made about that comment,

      a) Most scientific institutions in the world wouldn’t even have an opinion on AGW. how many actually deal with
      in Climate science? for those that do, what will happen to their funding into climate science if they find no link between climate and mans activity? of course that just means their ‘consensus’ must be scrutinised, not ignored.

      B) Why has AGW even become a political “left v right” issue? both sides of politics would embrace action on climate change if the science wasn’t so vague and the motives from the left of politics supporting action on ‘AGW’ so transparent. the nasty right wingers didn’t oppose the phase out of CFC’s did they? no, that’s because the science was legitimate and accepted on CFC’s.

    • John A Neve says:

      01:55pm | 19/01/11

      For once I think Sophie is basically correct. Succesive governments and the general public have chosen to turn a blind eye to reality.

      We have built where we should never have built, we have changed th topography of the land. We have tried to control nature as did King Canute and we have failed.

      The lesson is, don’t build in flood prone areas. Simple really.

    • The Black Knight says:

      02:05pm | 19/01/11

      @MarK

      What part of argument from hindsight are you not getting. Did Dragun, Mirabella or you ever express your concerns about the amount of water released from Wivenhoe Dam before the rains?

      Dragun doesn’t believe that Australia is a dry continent. He thinks it’s a myth. No wonder he’s so keen to empty our dams, in hindsight of cause. Did this guy miss the fact the Queensland has just had 10 years of severe drought?

    • Ross Garrad says:

      02:21pm | 19/01/11

      Spot on, Black Knight. But far too many people, including Sophie M, have no idea of how Wivenhoe is intended to operate. A couple of weeks ago there were complaints that too much water was being released, to bring the level down to 100% of normal water-supply capacity. Now, with hindsight, the complaints are that not enough was released. Just accept it ... for these people, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, ignorance is bliss, and all that. And heaven forbid that we should leave these decisions to the experts who actually know what they’re doing.

    • The Black Knight says:

      02:40pm | 19/01/11

      @Freeman

      In general it’s only a left/right thing in Australia and the US. You won’t find the same divide in the UK for example. After all it was Margaret Thatcher the gave AGW it’s political legs in the first place.

      Here is her speech from 1990: Speech at 2nd World Climate Conference

      http://www.margaretthatcher.org/document/108237

    • MarK says:

      02:54pm | 19/01/11

      Hindsight?

      So this is all you are complaining about now I have shown everything you have said so far is wrong or untrue. You make up stuff, you criticise facts you haven’t read or if you do read you don’t comprehend the information or misconstrue it.

      And you finally say in answer to the questions and points raised by Sophie why didn’t she say them before the floods.

      That is it. You can’t question anything unless you say it earlier.

      Gotcha. You have no point other than anyone that that doesn’t agree with you is wrong. It really must be embarrassing being you. So many mistakes. So little time spent making them. All for a “belief” and worship of a fallen and failed idol.

      I pity you.

    • The Black Knight says:

      03:24pm | 19/01/11

      Hindsight?

      @MarK

      Try reading my very first comment at the top of the page.

      “Isn’t uneducated hindsight a wonder thing.”

      Oh and I notice you are refusing to answer the question I’ve asked you.

      Did Dragun, Mirabella or you ever express your concerns about the amount of water released from Wivenhoe Dam before the rains?

    • Plumber says:

      03:37pm | 19/01/11

      For those a little confused, let me spell it out:

      When they talk about 100%, that’s not the capacity of the dam.  That’s the level the government authorities have determined is the water they need.  The dam can physically hold more water than the ‘100% figure’ they talk about.

    • JR says:

      03:37pm | 19/01/11

      To MarK and BK… you’re both chasing around your own tails. It’s like reading James Joyce. Neither of you has been able to argue logically. Despite both your continuing recriminations of misinterpretation, neither of you can make a valid point; and judging by your grammatical structure, lack of punctuation and woeful spelling, neither of you ever will. Let this not dissuade either of you two from continuing this thread however - it’s been thoroughly entertaining, so far, reading your moronic tete-a-tete (yes, I need accents on tete-a-tete, but my keyboard lacks this functionality). And now, please, continue as you were…

    • The Black Knight says:

      03:53pm | 19/01/11

      @  JR

      You’re right.

    • MarK says:

      04:20pm | 19/01/11

      Thanks JR.

      I love it when someone that has no point comes along to validate their existence.

      Any time you wish to add something of note please call back.

      By the way always be careful when you try to grammar or spell Nazi on the internet. Your failure to tête-à-tête correctly marks you as simply lazy.

      Me - as long as it is legible I don’t knock others. Only those that wish to appear superior but fail to do so. It is hilarious when it happens in the very post they attempt to mock you with. Check your own punctuation champ.

      BK my whole previous post was about hindsight.

    • Angry God says:

      09:58pm | 19/01/11

      TBK, go to the comments of the article you have linked, made in October and read 21,22 and 50. They show clear foresight and highlight the reasons for the dam in the first place. Most prescient would be Anne (comment 50), that is the management of Wivenhoe as flood mitigation not as water storage.

      The incompetance of the Beattie/Bligh government is breathtaking, that Anna led a government that is being praised for her handling of this tragedy belies the implicit responsibility that the excessive water restrictions and improper use of this major flood mitigation dam that this government placed on Brisbane. In October they had all major dams full, well before the beginning of the wet season proper and yet did not comprehend that more rain could come.

      You accuse Ms Mirrabella of having no idea, yet the article you link highlights that this flood mitigation dam was at 100% and that readers were concerned that this was not suitable given the purpose of the dam in the first place. With Wivenhoe at 30% and managed water release as it filled, the impacts would have been reduced. That is what a flood mitigation dam is for. The other two dams, plus the Hinze would have provided water for 7 years without Wivenhoe.

      It was the inability of those whose job it is to manage this state to comprehend that the La Nina (like in 74) significantly raised the risk of higher rainfall against the norm, although the dam has the capacity to go to 225% it was designed to protect Brisbane and be closer to 30% prior to the wet season.

      Control of the citizens of Brisbane through the increase restrictions for water even when all the dams were full created the problem by the Government that prevented easing of restrictions and the reduction of level by releasing the stores would have been political poison so they did not do what they should have done. The prevention by the Goss government of the Wolfdene dam for political reasons inhibited Brisbane’s ability to provide a vital resource that subsequently corrupted the available water infrastructure for tasks that compromised the ability to function as designed. So Rudd also has mud on his hands.

      It is sad that the deluge came and that the dam was unable to completely accomplish its designed task, a large number of Brisbanites will remember that fortunately Joh had the courage to build this major dam to mitigate against this one in thirty year flood then many more would have lost homes and possibly loved ones.

      You really have no idea what you are talking about do you. I was not going to respond to your comment, but the inspired derangement that your unknowledable vitriol presents to the public creates a requirement for the introduction of clarity to relieve the world of your obfuscation. I have said it in response to your posts on other blogs, get some help, you really need it.

    • Best to just smile and nod says:

      01:16am | 20/01/11

      @The Black Knight

      Dear sir,

      Stop ruining good stories with the “left-wing” facts. As you can see, they only serve to overexcite the polite, well-spoken, and open-minded pundits… And if there were to be a crisis, then to whose divine wisdom would we turn, sir, should their prodigal cognitive perspicacity be exhausted upon such banter? For shame, sir, for shame!

    • Reggieman says:

      06:50am | 19/01/11

      Very well said Sophie. It is about time someone from the political arena stood up and spoke the truth about these parlous lies about “Climate Change” or whatever it is called this week. Can it be that the wheels are starting to fall off the AGW wagon? One can only hope!

    • The Black Knight says:

      07:13am | 19/01/11

      If AGW is BS. Can you explain why Sophie and her party have a climate change policy that includes reducing in CO2 emissions?

    • L. says:

      07:47am | 19/01/11

      “If AGW is BS. Can you explain why Sophie and her party have a climate change policy that includes reducing in CO2 emissions? “

      Because what is BS and what gets votes are usually not the same thing.

    • MarK says:

      08:07am | 19/01/11

      Sure BK.

      You don’t have to believe in the bullshit and lies that is GW to have a concern about the environment.

      The current fear campaign by the msm and the snake oil salesmen like Flannery include CO2 as the culprit.

      To be politically correct the policy throws that a bone.

      What is doesn’t do is tax society out of existence on the “evidence” that is has so many holes in it that it has been laughed off the “10 days or whatever the latest scaremonger time frame is to save the world” conference stage for the last two years.

      It is why cap and trade is dead in the US.

      It is why Europe spends more time sorting out the fraud and the cost of the schemes they have than actually doing anything constructive.

      See? It is not believe in AGW and CO2 or hate the environment. It is shut up the imbeciles and do something constructive.

      Just in case you missed it.

      AGW is bullshit. This however does not mean that you do nothing to enhance the natural environment around you or do sensible and practicable things to aid it.

      It isn’t really that hard. The days of do this or you do nothing etc etc were knifed in the back last year. Do try and keep up.

    • Freeman says:

      08:09am | 19/01/11

      “Can you explain why Sophie and her party have a climate change policy that includes reducing in CO2 emissions?”

      that’s an easy one, Black Night. Despite the fact that AGW is far from proven, nobody is against reducing Carbon emissions,

    • Gregg says:

      08:13am | 19/01/11

      @ Blacknight,
      Nothing at all wrong with a political party wanting to look after the environment and plant lots of trees which is part of Liberal policy, doing it naturally rather than just another taxation fumble.

    • Super D says:

      08:16am | 19/01/11

      @Black Night

      For the same reason that the Government claims to be tough on border protection.  My tip would be that the next second term coalition will see the Department of Climate Change downgraded and subsumed back into the Department of Environment.

      Even Kevin Rudd now ranks the “greatest moral challenge of our time” at number 7.

      It will be a slow process to dismantle the propaganda infrastructure that the carbonistats have built over the past decade but dismantled it will be.

    • The Black Knight says:

      08:28am | 19/01/11

      @MarK @Freeman

      You lot keep telling us that CO2 is not a pollutant and not responsible for GW.  So tell us, how is reducing CO2 good for the environment?

      @  L.

      So the Liberals don’t have the power of their convictions and are lying to the public to get vote. Thanks for clearing that up.

    • MarK says:

      09:45am | 19/01/11

      “@MarK @Freeman

      You lot keep telling us that CO2 is not a pollutant and not responsible for GW.  So tell us, how is reducing CO2 good for the environment?”

      Wow wow wow. You sure do love putting words in my mouht. And now in the space of a few hours I can really see that reading comprehension failure and fantasy projections are your argumentative technique.

      I never once said CO2 was a not a pollutant. I merely answered your question.

      If you had actually read it you would have noticed this line

      “The current fear campaign by the msm and the snake oil salesmen like Flannery include CO2 as the culprit.”

      Points to note

      1. I call it a fear campaign.
      2. I call CO2 a culprit.

      Your question is moot. Your attempt at justification is baseless. Your argument is non existent.

      Please do try harder. Or not. Just stop making stuff up. You really are not very good at this are you?

    • Freeman says:

      10:02am | 19/01/11

      “You lot keep telling us that CO2 is not a pollutant and not responsible for GW”

      not at all, Black Knight. The argument is about mans contributition to the global C02 output (which is 3% or less) and if natural process’s compensate for variations in C02, both natural and man made. Co2 varies naturally and is essential for life on earth

    • Aitch B says:

      10:47am | 19/01/11

      @The Black Knight

      “So the Liberals don’t have the power of their convictions and are lying to the public to get vote.”

      Sort of reminds you of Gillard’s “There will not be a carbon tax under my government”, doesn’t it?

      Parramatta to Epping railway line anyone?

    • The Black Knight says:

      10:48am | 19/01/11

      @MarK

      “You don’t have to believe in the bullshit and lies that is GW to have a concern about the environment.”

      You responded to my comment about CG, CO2 and the Liberals policy to reduce CO2. What has your concern for the environment got to do with Liberal Party policy to reduce CO2?

      “See? It is not believe in AGW and CO2 or hate the environment. It is shut up the imbeciles and do something constructive.”

      So why don’t the Liberals come and say that rather then claim they are trying to reduce CO2 emissions?

    • The Black Knight says:

      10:56am | 19/01/11

      @Freeman

      I good to hear that and it’s a fair comment. However, if you good to the Andrew Blog blog site you will see that the predominate view there is that CO2 is not a pollutant and not responsible for GW.

      This is why I believe that man made CO2 is to blame. If a dam is 99.999% full via natural means and not likely in the near future to overflow. Then humans come along and dump enough water in the dam to make it over flow immediately. Is the over flow natural or man made? I would say that it was man made.

    • Steely Dan says:

      11:26am | 19/01/11

      Now Reg, Sophie didn’t say gw wasn’t happening. In fact, she was very careful not to make any comment on it at all. Like the rest of the Liberal Party she knows that real science isn’t settled by some know-it-alls in lab coats, it’s settled democratically. Sophie’s not going to make the amateur politician’s mistake of accepting expert scientific opinion when there’s still debate among laymen.

    • MarK says:

      11:44am | 19/01/11

      ”  This is why I believe that man made CO2 is to blame. If a dam is 99.999% full via natural means and not likely in the near future to overflow. Then humans come along and dump enough water in the dam to make it over flow immediately. Is the over flow natural or man made? I would say that it was man made.

      Amazing.

      You have confessed a “belief” in AGW coming form man made CO2. It really is a religion to you isn’t it.

      It was zealots like you that said the dam would never be full again. We were in perpetual drought now you say man filled them up and then overflowed them.

      Taking the next logical step from this statement you made

      “humans come along and dump enough water in the dam to make it over flow”

      and this

      “I would say that it was man made. “

      You believe we actually influence the weather in a real time basis.

      So next time we have a drought we fire up the old coal stations burn a bot more fossil fuels and VOILA!! full dams.

      Awesome work.

      Oh and to your question to me…. will repeat myself again.

      “To be politically correct the policy throws that a bone.”

      Really do try and read what you and others write before commenting.

      You are really really bad at it.

      Learn

      To

      Comprehend.

    • L. says:

      12:09pm | 19/01/11

      “So the Liberals don’t have the power of their convictions and are lying to the public to get vote. Thanks for clearing that up. “

      Yes… The lie, just like Labor. Is that a surprise to you?

    • The Black Knight says:

      12:22pm | 19/01/11

      @MarK

      I also believe in gravity. I wonder what religion you’re going to file that under?

      Every major scientific institution on this planet claims that AGW is real and happening. My choices are to believe them or a bunch of people who are all seem to be right wing.

    • MarK says:

      12:58pm | 19/01/11

      Gravity is a fact that can be proven.

      AGW is a computer model with dodgy data and a political undertone.

      When climate models can be used to backcast data to produce reliable known outcomes get back to me.

      Until then keep praying.

      The thing that amazes me is the fervour the zealots have. You keep saying the world is not is not ending and they get mad. Seems a bit odd doesn’t it.

      Good luck with you false idols BK. Oh by the way not every scientific body on the planet believes in AGW or even if they do that the results will be all bad. Some even quote the net gains we will reap if it all comes about.

      Food for thought. But shhhh….don’t tell the others in the temple. Would hate for you to get stoned or shunned.

    • The Black Knight says:

      02:34pm | 19/01/11

      “Gravity is a fact that can be proven.”
      @MarK

      Right, so climate models are sus when applied to AGW but gospel when used to predict Brisbane’s flood. Which comes back to my original point. What if we emptied the dam and the flood didn’t come? Yes the flood did come but we only know this in hindsight.

      Oh and btw, as someone living 4 hours north of Brisbane I can tell you that there was more to this flood than Brisbane. But I’m sure you’ve got someone in mind to blame that on.

    • MarK says:

      03:13pm | 19/01/11

      The Black Knight says:

        02:34pm | 19/01/11

        “Gravity is a fact that can be proven.”
        @MarK

      I said that. Yes I did. Thanks for reminding me. Why you did I don’t know but hey it is your dime

      ”  Right, so climate models are sus when applied to AGW”

      Yes. They cannot backcast data even remotely accurately and were used to conduct a scare campaign that the country would be in perpetual drought which has been somewhat spectacularly disproven by recent events.

      Even your head preacher Brown has not had one supporter for the coal industry did it campaign he tried to run.

      ” but gospel when used to predict Brisbane’s flood.”

      No. Tell me when I said that. They are garbage full stop. Brisbanes floods and the weather in Queensland were totally predictable. They ahd happened before and will happen again. What point are you trying to make? They are not the result of AGW.

      “Which comes back to my original point. What if we emptied the dam and the flood didn’t come? Yes the flood did come but we only know this in hindsight.”

      No you have no point. You have not read the article I linked for a start. All you wanted to do is rip into Sophie from an ideological point of view, chose a stupid opinion and a silly fact to attempt to do it and now are scurrying around the boards trying to repair the joke you have made of yourself.

      Hindsight. Who cares. History is what teaches us. Grow up.

      ”  Oh and btw, as someone living 4 hours north of Brisbane I can tell you that there was more to this flood than Brisbane. But I’m sure you’ve got someone in mind to blame that on.”

      Blame?

      HAHAHAHAHAHA

      You really are simple. There is no “blame” for the rain. None at all. It is a normal pattern that will repeat in the future.

      Blame, is any, perhaps can be laid at the feet of the dam operators who with certain information might have acted better and sooner to ease the ultimate levels the flood reached in Brisbane. Time will tell on that.

      That is the point.

      Seriously it is not hard.

      Stop trying to change the argument all the time. You made unfounded and unsustainable allegations and were found wanting.

      You then went on and accused the author I linked of not having certain information in his piece about them releasing water before the floods which I then you showed he did (and you chose to remove remarkedly silent about) proving your ineptitude in comprehension and failure to acknowledge the plain facts.

      You then say it is all about people being meanies and if they use they use hindsight well that just ain’t fair.

      Pathetic. Your whole argument has boiled down to it is unfair of anyone who didn’t categorically predict an normal but infrequent weather event to comment on it. Take your bat and ball and go home if you want to act like a spoilt brat that has been told the naked truth. Either that or actually have something to say about the topic.

    • JR says:

      03:56pm | 25/01/11

      HaHa. That was just too easy.

    • nosthow says:

      06:59am | 19/01/11

      The floods are certainly natural Sophie but what was “unnatural” was your leader Tony Abbott’s comments yesterday when he said “Lets scrap the NBN to pay for the floods” ! God help me Sophie he has again shown us why he is unfit to be PM. What is it with the Liberals sophie that they hate Infrastructure so much ? Slash and tax is all they can do ! Tont I suspect was driven to this silly headline mainly by the fact he was fast becoming as relevant as a 1 pound note post decimal currency and needed to lift himself into print. “Ohhh look at me” he said - please ? Well the floods will be with us forever as will many natural occurences and disasters and the government of the day will deal with them as they arise. What we dont need is a “D” grade performer in Abbott squealing just to get a headline ! Why dont you give the leadership a tilt Sophie - you have it all - brains , poise, looks, savvy, charisma ?

    • TimB says:

      07:22am | 19/01/11

      Nosthow, why don’t you go and ask the flood victims what they would prefer: Help getting their lives back in order or super fast internet?

      Get back to me when you find out the answer.

    • Toady says:

      07:24am | 19/01/11

      So where will the billions come from to pay for the flood recovery - repairing infrastructure, all that sort of stuff?  More taxes?  A carbon tax to boost the Labor coffers?  Rip more money out of the miners?  Maybe a toll on all federally funded main roads - they haven’t thought of that one yet.  Labor = tax and spend, tax and spend.  Abbott is right - scrap the NBN or at least delay it for a few years,  but of course we know that Labor will be thrown out at the next opportunity so they can’t afford to stall it.  Interest rates are now guaranteed to rise this year, in part due to recent events.  We do not need a government blowing $43billion on something that private business should be providing.  Think about it - government controls the health system and look at the blowouts, inefficiencies and waste there.  You think the government run NBN will be any different? And yes, it is government run, despite what these lying Labor party leaders tell you.

    • Freeman says:

      08:03am | 19/01/11

      I could just imagine Nosthow being on a date and being to speak about nothing other that Tony Abbott, and I’d like to ask his mum if his 1st words were ‘Tony Abbott’

    • MarK says:

      08:10am | 19/01/11

      Just out of interest didn’t we juts have a story on The Punch about how twitter and other social media gave more information than other sources to families of those caught up the floods and were used by emergency services to gather and disseminate information?

      Hmmm.

      Wireless technology. And our current system. All utilised very effectively during one of the largest natural disasters in living memory.

      Who would have thunk it? Better spend that $50 billion plus real quick before someone remembers that or challenges the FOI crap sandbagging the project.

    • Gregg says:

      08:23am | 19/01/11

      Tim and Toady say it well enough for you Losthowever.
      What Tony said was that with something like the basic infrastructure damage that has occurred, and that is not just Brisbane and Queensland, splurging on the NBN is a luxury we should forego in favour of attending to basic needs.
      The benefits of the NBN are all hairy fairy stuff whereas shortages in coal to power stations and exports along with agricultural production and transport delays are quite positively there to be seen right now.

      Supermarkets in Brisbane had to be closed to prevent fights over bread developing into riots and many country communities are relying on food drops by air whilst still going without many things.

      And where’s Conroy with a claim about eFood and eTransport, eCoal seeing as he and Gillard reckon we can have such eEd and eHealth benefits.
      At least Tony can think along realistic lines.

    • Joan says:

      08:29am | 19/01/11

      NBN fast tracked in Windsor, Oakshott electorates will not get QLD economy back on track -fast .... monies should be directed to restoring flood ravaged QLD economy to preflood efficiency as quickly as possible. A strong economy in Qld makes for strong Australian economy.

    • The Badger says:

      09:30am | 19/01/11

      Yes mark

      We did just have a story about how twits could twitter and get updates during the flood. Small twits worked well, when the cell site you depended on wasn’t underwater, or it wasn’t raining cats and dogs. As a matter of fact, SMS worked just as well under the same conditions.

      The NBN is about providing a ” reliable ” high speed connection that doesn’t flake out at random intervals, suffer from wireless congestion, or fail to operate at all after rain as wireless is known to do.

      The updates you speak of during and after the flood are very small packets of information and given the above conditions don’t disrupt are an excellent way of communicating in an emergency. The NBN is not designed to serve solely as a disaster alert system. It is designed to provide the infrastructure that can deliver the high bandwidth applications of today and the future in a reliable and future proof manner.
      Large amounts of data would choke existing wireless technology and bring the system to it’s knees. Fibre is here now and your mates that speak of fibre-like wireless speeds are selling you a load of bunkum.

      Not surprised you took the bait they offered and propose wireless over fibre as the solution. After all, as you have previously said “The hardware alone to handle that bandwidth is not readily available in Harvey Norman you know?”
      Basing your opinion of the NBN on what’s in stock at Harvey Norman sort of rules you out of the NBN discussion mark.

    • john says:

      09:35am | 19/01/11

      @ Freeman

      I think his Mum when into LABOR literately, its more likely when he popped out he said LABOR, vote for Chris Watson and that was back in 1901.

    • MarK says:

      11:19am | 19/01/11

      WOOT!!.

      I went fishing and caught me a Badger. HAHAHAHA

        The Badger says:

        09:30am | 19/01/11

        Yes mark

        ” We did just have a story about how twits could twitter and get updates during the flood. Small twits worked well, when the cell site you depended on wasn’t underwater, or it wasn’t raining cats and dogs. As a matter of fact, SMS worked just as well under the same conditions.”

      See SMS worked well. Twitter worked. The net and mobile phones worked under the most adverse conditions imaginable. Thanks for confirming my point.

      ” The NBN is about providing a ” reliable ” high speed connection that doesn’t flake out at random intervals, suffer from wireless congestion, or fail to operate at all after rain as wireless is known to do.”

      Really? Please back up your assertions that the current system we have “flakes” at random intervals. Also that wireless “fails after rain”. I think we just saw it doesn’t do that. Do try and make sense. Congestion? Well we are spending $50billion plus. Buys a lot of towers.

      ”  The updates you speak of during and after the flood are very small packets of information and given the above conditions don’t disrupt are an excellent way of communicating in an emergency.”

      If it works it works Badger. Gosh. It doesn’t mean only small bits of info could get through. My relatives were looking at newpapers on their iphones and such like. Do try and understand what you are talking about.

      “The NBN is not designed to serve solely as a disaster alert system. It is designed to provide the infrastructure that can deliver the high bandwidth applications of today and the future in a reliable and future proof manner.”

      Wow. You really thought that out didn’t you. When did I EVER say the NBN was designed for that purpose. I actually agree with you. There is a first.

      ”  Large amounts of data would choke existing wireless technology and bring the system to it’s knees. Fibre is here now and your mates that speak of fibre-like wireless speeds are selling you a load of bunkum.”

      No you have no idea what you talking about. Data size doesn’t choke existing systems. The numbers of users do. Any technical proof you have for this would be excellent. My proof of the validity of wireless as a data transference medium is the continual need, desire and uptake of mobile phone and internet services. Truly you should try them sometime. When a node becomes congested you add more bandwidth…..it is pretty simple.

      ”  Not surprised you took the bait they offered and propose wireless over fibre as the solution. “

      Hahahaha. The bait was mine. I was tempted to write this back on the original thread and actually had something similar ready to go but pulled it. I was waiting for a more subtle time to bait my hook. Gotcha.

      Show me where I HAVE EVER said wireless should be used over fibre. Go on. Search. Look. Seek. You shall not find. You think I want that. That is all. You project that, you try to label me with that. You need me to believe that to make your argument vaguely relevant.I do not think it is the total answer. I have also said I will be the first to sign up to the NBN fibre if Oakeshott gets off his arse and gets it to me quickly.

      I do know, however, wireless is not as useless as you say. You never actually try to justify the NBN apart from what you read in the promotional material. It will do all this great stuff…...except you can’t say what it is. You are justifying the spend because a blind ideological belief that if Gillard and Rudd said it is good then it must be. You are myopic.

        ” After all, as you have previously said “The hardware alone to handle that bandwidth is not readily available in Harvey Norman you know?”Basing your opinion of the NBN on what’s in stock at Harvey Norman sort of rules you out of the NBN discussion mark.”

      Oh yawn. Really ....YAAAAAAAWWWWWN.

      I am still trying to buy a router form Harvey Norman that will deliver the full gig of bandwidth they have promised will be available.

      How is your search going for one? Have you wired up the house yet? Rae you ready for the full gig? Got some apps to use it? Whay do you want it Badger?

      I will be in this discussion for a long time Badger. The rollout hasn’t even begun in earnest and they are already hiding behind FOI barriers in an attempt to disguise the disaster looming.

      It would be hilarious if it wasn’t so tragic.

      Pro tip. Spending a lot of money and wasting a lot you spend does not make you a great innovator or saviour through infrastructure spending.

      What it makes you is foolish and out of a top job. Ask Rudd. Ask Gillard in a few months.

      Thanks so much for playing. I can’t believe my luck!!

    • Rosie says:

      11:30am | 19/01/11

      Yes Nosthow I am with TimB please get back to all of us when you find the answer to his question. It will be very interesting, very interesting indeed.

      Tony Abbott is not the PM nor his party the Federal Govt so what he says is what he would have done if he was in Gillard’s position. (Sounds very good to me.) She and her party not only makes the decisions but uses taxpayer’s money to implement them. We have now reached the reality stage and if Sophie tells us floods are natural, Flannery & Co with their version on why we had the floods, Bob Browne blaming the coal industry etc it still not the solution to the reality of rebuilding the lives of the flood victims and the cities like Brisbane etc. This should become the country’s first priority and I agree whole heartedly with Tony Abbott that the $45b allocated by the Gillard Govt should be used to rebuild the lives of flood victims and their communities. It is not only for their benefit but for this country and its citizens.

      Otherwise, nosthow pray tell us where is the money going to come from to rebuild the lives of flood victims and their communities?????????

    • Ben says:

      01:05pm | 19/01/11

      I agree with Tony Abbott, but I don’t agree with him delivering the message so soon after the floods.  Lets be honest, you can’t use that glass tube to send food to people.

    • The Badger says:

      01:17pm | 19/01/11

      Wahoo,
      I went fishing and caught me a markfish. Too bad you didn’t put up much of a fight and are just hanging there exhausted at the end of my gaff.

      Anybody that uses mobile wireless technology knows that connections are flakey and are subject to drop outs. You should get yourself a mobile and try it out for yourself sometime.  As a matter of fact, when investigating complaints about mobile drop-outs and poor coverage, the telecommunications ombudsman specifically asks that you specify whether coverage differs depending on the time of day, weather, etc.  Why do you suppose they do this mark?
      The Australian Department of Communications, Information Technology and the Arts commissioned a study into the future of the internet which identified interference on internet links has the potential to degrade or disrupt internet services for areas of Australia. While interference may only occur intermittently, it can render internet services unreliable for critical purposes. The major interference threat arises from the weather or climate. A typical scenario includes “Rain or storms degrading satellite or radio connectivity”.
      Class Description
      Has anybody reading these comments that has a 3G or 4G mobile device never experienced dropouts? Mark seriously do alittle research before you stick your gill in your mouth. If you did a little searching around for example, you would have seen that companies like Vodaphone state in their “Important Disclaimer Note:” There may also be a number of factors beyond Vodafone’s reasonable control that could cause coverage to vary within a stated area. They include “local weather conditions”.

      You say “Data size doesn’t choke existing systems. The numbers of users do.”
      You actually believe that volume of data cannot choke a mobile network? Say no more, you are exposed for the fool that you are. Keep spouting that conservative rubbish, you are only strengthening the case for the NBN by your ill informed comments.

    • MarK says:

      02:04pm | 19/01/11

      Is that it?

      Actually I expected about as much.

      Tell me when you actually have a point. This is the funnest thread ever. I love the ease at which you are manipulated. Love it

    • The Badger says:

      02:12pm | 19/01/11

      mark
      imagine that, mark lost for words, taken to task for his ignorance and sulks off into the distance.
      Hope the mobile gods in NSW give you good coverage and the weather gods don’t disrupt your service.

    • Burko says:

      11:57am | 20/01/11

      @ Mark. I was going to stay well away from this debate as I am not a hydrologist ,engineer or NBN geek, until you wrote
      Really? Please back up your assertions that the current system we have “flakes” at random intervals. Also that wireless “fails after rain”.
        Last night at my place actually. We had a couple of big storms roll over my house and as usual our cable t.v dropped out as we receive a satellite signal and my wireless connection disconected as usual and mobile coverage is dodgy at best. I live on the boarder of the largest ,and from what I read on here sometimes, the most hated city in Aust.  My service dropping out when it rains or when we get a dry thunderstorm , now thats a predictable event….....with the use of hindsight, or is that foresight.

    • L. says:

      07:05am | 19/01/11

      “What is it with the Liberals sophie that they hate Infrastructure so much ?”

      Ummm… He wants divertthe NBN funds to rebild Infrastructure, yeah?

      But Ok, lets keep the NBN and divert the $50 Mill from the stupid Internet Filter to rebuild with.

      Does that work for you..?

    • Jim says:

      11:37am | 19/01/11

      Nosthow is very selective in what he remembers L. He has an insane hatred for the LNP and honestly believes KRudd and Jooolya are demigods.

      According to him nothing at all was built during the Howard years, no hospitals, no schools, no roads, no mobile towers, no electricity grids…nothing! According to him, Howard should have ignored that trifling little matter of Keatings $96bn parting gift and just continued on with reckless spending.

      Abbott made a statement about the NBN - if Jooolya had half a brain she would use this opportunity to back out of this colossal waste of money gracefully.

    • Colin J Ely says:

      07:09am | 19/01/11

      Down here in beautiful downtown Melbourne, we had a suburban hotel flooded and some cretin nearly lost his life trying to drive through floodwaters. My brother in his misspent youth used to go swimming in Macauly Rd Kensington when it used to regularly flood and the Maribyrnong flows near Moonee Ponds. Now I wonder why our early settlers named the area ‘Moonee Ponds’? Wouldn’t have anything to do with the fact that it used to be swampland would it?

    • Richard says:

      07:28am | 19/01/11

      Simply superb piece Sophie! This is the best writing I’ve seen on The Punch in a very long time: you so succinctly and eloquently expressed the very thoughts that had been fighting for formulation in the fuzzy haze of my mind, and wrapped it up with a stirring call to arms with which heartily agree.

      With our human ingenuity and lateral thinking and problem solving abilities, nature should not provide any challenge we can not ultimately conquer if determined to do so.

    • Brewstermac says:

      07:55am | 19/01/11

      Couldn’t you have leaned out of your office and praised her?

    • TChong says:

      08:18am | 19/01/11

      Simply superb suck up there, Richard !
      Do you write her press releases ?
      “a stirring call to arms ” WTF ? What is she proposing ? Nothing.
      Yur either taking the piss, or a party hack.

    • Richard says:

      08:36am | 19/01/11

      The call to arms that Sophie proposes is “We should learn the lessons of the past, know that another extreme event is inevitable, and we should use all our technology and resources to ensure we are better prepared to mitigate the impact of such an event,” which are sentiments that I eminently agree with.

      On an even larger scale, check out the equally superb book “Super Freakonomics” for some examples of technology and human ingenuity that could mitigate/reverse global warming WITHOUT the need to impose an economically destructive tax on the air we breathe out of our lungs.

    • TChong says:

      09:51am | 19/01/11

      I agree Richard, it is a sentiment , which any one would agree with.
      “A call to arms”?  Hardly.
      And whats with all that syncophantic nonsense , ? Is Sophie really the guiding light to your fuzzy haze of mind ? Pahleeze, Richard, I had more respect for your POVs as original in content, than that.
      If you had the chance Richard , would you redo that post the same ?, or maybe make the same point , but without the fawning ?

    • The Badger says:

      03:59pm | 19/01/11

      Richard
      If sophie had half a brain, her call to arms would be not to rebuild where these homes once stood.

      But that might be too innovative an idea for the shadow minister of Innovation, Industry and Science. Perhaps she should blend back into the shadows.

    • Richard says:

      05:03pm | 19/01/11

      I do agree Badger that if our planners were smarter they would prohibit residential building on flood plains and leave that land or reclaim it for productive farming enterprises.

      We gotta be smarter about and the way we live/grow our food and where we choose to do it. Flexibility is key! We must all be prepared to change our lifestyles and imagine better ways of living in harmony with nature, and continually adapt using new data and technology to survive.

    • Jade says:

      07:44am | 19/01/11

      The Wivenhoe Dam has done its job. Imagine how bad these floods would of been if it wasn’t there. They were nearly as bad as ‘74’ with the dam. A farmer and my neighbour from the Lockyer Valley said the floods in 1974 were “just a pup” compared to this one.  I would say Brisbane and Ipswich has been very lucky indeed. Unlike the Valley that has been all but forgotten about (well so it seems anyway).

      To all the people who wanted the prestige river front properties that were way over priced… are you enjoying them now??

    • Davida says:

      09:06am | 19/01/11

      “To all the people who wanted the prestige river front properties that were way over priced… are you enjoying them now??”
      Jade, you can’t generalise like that.  There are some prestige river front properties affected by the floods (and probably fully insured)  BUT suburbs like Darra, Goodna, Fairfield and Rocklea often come up on the list of “most affordable” suburbs.  A lot of people bought in Bulimba, not for river views, but because in the 80’s/early ‘90’s, they could be purchased for $60/$70, 000 dollars and were within the price range of ordinary working families.  You have to live somewhere, generally where you can afford (and where someone else isn’t already).  An unfortunate reality but hardly a crime worthy of contempt.

    • fairsfair says:

      09:32am | 19/01/11

      I agree on the forgotton front Jade. I wish the media would just let up and let people try get on with their lives. There is no point jamming a camera in the faces of the people of Grantham, who were allowed to finally survey the damage. The absolute overkill that is going on in Brisbane is quite sad. My sister was helping in Ipswich and said that they had to actually ask one of the channels to leave. They were in the way in their pristine while ralph lauren button up shirts and nobody is out there in there in amongst all that to get their face on the telly.

      I stopped watching a few days ago now and have read a couple of books. I rely on the web and have the Today Show on in the morning when I am getting ready for work and it is verging on rediculous.

      What about Toowoomba, The Lockyer Valley and Rockhampton. St George? Condamine? The other 70% of QLD that is a natrual disaster zone?

      You are in the Lockyer aren’t you? I am glad that you are OK. I would be interested to know from someone on the ground what is actually required? You certainly have my thoughts and sympathy, but with the amount of people converging on your area (the authorities that is) is that all that you need from the general public? Is there anything more that we can do than just keep you in our minds and is there an actual fund that will assure money goes to the Western Downs area?

    • Jade says:

      09:50am | 19/01/11

      Davida, I am not talking about suburbs like Darra, Goonda and Rocklea. They are just unfortunate enough to be in a low lying area, and the people that live in these suburbs would never of imagined that it would happen (I sure as hell didn’t). They are also some of the people that can least afford this to happen to them, a majority would be with out insurance and living in rented properties. 

      I am not being spiteful, and the loss of property is very unfortunate. But there are other areas that had little to no warning that this was coming who deserve more help than they are receiving.

    • BobM says:

      09:54am | 19/01/11

      Ah Jade - “To all the people who wanted the prestige river front properties that were way over priced… are you enjoying them now??”

      A little Green with envy, perhaps?  I’m sure if you were one of ‘the people’ who could afford to live in a prestige home,  you would.  But no, you’re just a jealous whinger…..

    • Jade says:

      11:18am | 19/01/11

      @ Fairsfair, yes I live about 20 minutes from Grantham. I luckily only live near flood plains and on a slight hill so my yard was flooded and I was isolated for until Saturday just gone.  But I have spoken to a farmer who lives around 8km from my house on the Lockyer Creek that has been absolutely devastated by the floods. He had to worry about finding bodies while are cleaning his property and is looking at 200k + just to get started again with his business.  He isn’t alone, there are so many other farming families out there in the same position and its unlikely he will get any assistance.

      Yeah I gave up on the TV coverage too, just the same shit over and over again, and two minutes dedicated to other flood affected areas.  Its not just out west that has been forgotten, but NSW and VIC. I have family in high risk flood zones in both states and only found out if they were flooded or not through facebook. Not a mention on the news at all.  I really do hope the media to leave the people of Grantham alone though, they need time and space now.

      Lol @ BobM. I quiet like living on my acreage property in the country, and don’t envy anyone living on any riverfront properties. Even if I could afford to live on the river I wouldn’t. I would choose country over that any day :D

    • Gladys says:

      12:59pm | 19/01/11

      Quite right, Jade. Rosalie got so much sympathy because it got all the coverage.

      Goodna - forgotten. Jindalee. Forgotten.

    • TheRealDave says:

      02:56pm | 19/01/11

      I noticed with amusement last night that Channel 10 news put up a nice graphic with the area’s ‘fastracked’ to get their power turned on within 24 hours included: Taringa, Bellbowrie, Milton, Westlake…my heart went out to once Westlake local they interviewed that doesn’t have the power to turn on his airconditioners or even, *gasp* his fans! In this heat? Heaven forbid!


      ....and then they showed the areas that would need ‘weeks’ to get power restored: Rocklea, Archerfield, Fairfield, Yeronga.

      Typical.

      Hate to be the working poor huh?

    • Andrew says:

      04:44pm | 19/01/11

      At some point people have to take responsibility for the decisions they have made.  Ignorance is not, and should not, be an excuse.  Goodna, Rocklea, Oxley - these suburds have ALWAYS flooded even in relatively minor flood events, and have always flooded BADLY when it seriously rains.  Not just in 74, but in the many lesser floods since then.  Anybody buying or renting in these areas SHOULD know that - if they don’t, it’s their own fault for not doing some basic research.  The flood records from past events are all a matter of public record, and very easily available, and laziness is the only excuse for not looking at them before making one of the most important decisions of your life.  Sure, if you decide to buy a ‘cheap’ house and take the risk that it won’t be flooded before you sell, go ahead and take that risk.  But don’t complain when the floods happen (they WILL happen, it’s just a matter of time) and your investment is destroyed.  Of course the council and other government agencies certainly need to take some responsibility for actually allowing people to build in some of these areas in the first place - WHY would you let people rebuild homes in areas that were 5m underwater in 1974?!?  It’s crazy, and unfortunately it’s all about money.  You only have to have a cursory look at property prices in these areas to see that they declined enormously after 1974 when compared to other areas, but in a few decades were right back up where they were previously.  People have such short memories…  I think it might be a great investment to buy property in these areas now, wait 10 years until the floods have been forgotten and “it will never happen again”, then sell.  If there’s one thing to be learned here, it’s that human nature never changes, and that human stupidity is one of the universe’s strongest forces.

    • Brewstermac says:

      07:46am | 19/01/11

      Suddenly everyone’s a hydrologist

    • MarK says:

      08:35am | 19/01/11

      Well everyone’s a climate scientist.

      Actually given the quality of the science everyone is qualified.

    • Freeman says:

      10:06am | 19/01/11

      One doesn’t need to be a Hydrologist to identify inconsistencies in an argument.

    • Blazes says:

      07:47am | 19/01/11

      Great article, Sophie! The main point is that Australia is “the land of droughts and flooding rains” and we need to accept it, as a nation, and plan for it. The solution is so much more complicated that simply “reduce our emissions”.

    • bb says:

      10:59am | 19/01/11

      “the land of droughts and flooding rains” and reason why our forefathers built there houses on stilts and didn’t “build in underneath”  Maybe we aren’t as smart as we think we are.

    • L. says:

      07:50am | 19/01/11

      “Imagine how bad these floods would of been if it wasn’t there.”

      Another 1m higher according to some water boffin in yesterdays news.

    • ian m says:

      09:03am | 19/01/11

      yes L and about 8m under the record flood in the 1800!

    • Gregg says:

      07:51am | 19/01/11

      You started out fine Sophie and then just flooded yourself with muck, possibly because of prattling on like pollies do on subjects they know Jack shit about.

      Yes, floods can happen anytime there’s a lot of rain about and that may be ground soaking but hard earth shattering knowledge and in fact if you care to study http://www.bom.gov.au/hydro/flood/qld/fld_history/brisbane_history.shtml you’ll see that a few more sizable floods occurred around 1890- 1893, five in nine years and the late nineteenth century was indeed a very damp one before a relatively dry twentieth notwithstanding 1974.

      Where Lady Muck comes on is:
      ” Instead of actively planning for the inevitable reoccurrence of a devastating flood, it appears that many town planners, engineers and above all their political masters, have simply denied the past. “
      And indeed the lack of willingness for politicians to legislate against city urban development in river valleys below known flood levels is indeed criminal and must be some kind of a disease that may be passed on through generations.
      For that to happen, you would think there could be a carrier and perhaps it could be the pro development at whatever cost to someone else and profit in my pocket and possibly some politicians that come on board with my development.
      Even without profit in their pocket, how many local politicians do you know that are very parochial about their bit of turf and want to see it grow more than the other side of the hill!

      Sure, city planners ought to know where to allow developments and where not but they too can not only be driven by whatever including their masters or have their decisions over ruled.
      Engineers will build anything you like within reason if they are asked to and provided with the resources but to say they have denied the past is a bit more of your muck raking for you yourself admit Wivenhoe was built.

      And then you come on with
      ” But in recent times it wasn’t managed as part of that strategy.  Water was kept in storage rather than released ahead of the big wet – almost in denial of the Dam’s original purpose. ”
      You conveniently overlook that it is also a key part of Brisbanes water storage and so has a rated storage capacity and capacity over that of somewhere about 100% to cope with excessive rain that can become floodwater.

      Wivenhoe was actually discharging excess water back as far as October last year and any releases are obviously going to be controlled where possible to restrict downstream flooding, releases even varied where possible to suit tidal situations.
      What happened in the past weeks was that though releases were being gradually increased to account for intake into the Dam, that cannot be accurately predicted until rainfall is occurring and with the extent of rainfall that did occur, discharge was increased accordingly so as the Dam could cope with the expected intake and it was managed to the limit.
      The heavy rain downstream of the Dam and the discharge was the major contributor to flooding.

      A critic such as yourself might say why not release more water earlier and so you could cause flooding earlier and if there was then no rainfall in the Dam catchment area or less, more than was needed to be released could have occurred and flooding caused could have been averted.

      It is this kind of thing Sophie that many politicians probably have no conceptual thinking ability on, nor probably do many of senior politicians minders.
      So if you really want to do something about the Brisbane situation and preventing a repeat, have a think about a flood waters bypass tunnel seeing as we’ll never likely get a politician nor the community at large prepared to restrict developments closer to the river.

      But lay off those who are actually doing the building and then have to manage whatever politicians get behind building.

    • Tom says:

      04:03pm | 19/01/11

      Cummon professor, Water is water and a litre is a litre.

      “.. no conceptual thinking ability on”? My ass, professor, you are overstating the secret scientist business. If the tap is on and the plug stays in, the bath will overflow.

      1. Someone made the call not to pull the plug and it turned out to be a bad call. The reason they did it was so as not to waste water.

      2. The question is simple, should they reasonably have made a better call given the history and weather data that was at their disposal.

      Stop bunging it on professor.

    • mags says:

      07:54am | 19/01/11

      It seems poetic that the states that suffered the most damage were also the ones which were unprepared for this catastrophe. The ” inland tsunami” in Toowoomba was caused by the collapse of a water reserve which caused the huge rush of water down the two floodwater channels. Millions were spent on so called ” flood mitigation” which created the tragedy that happened.

      Wivenhoe Dam was built by the Bjelke Peterson government to safeguard Brisbane against another 1974 incident. Poorly managed as everything is by any Labor government, the rate of release was negligible in the face of the predicted wet season. No one wants to take responsibility for poor decision making. Doing by the book has had grievous consequences in other places besides Queensland. Look at the stupidity of releasing water into an already flooded river system by Snowy River Power instead of into a dam which was nearly empty. Also the refusal of the SA government to allow irrigators to relieve the pressure on the Murray and still charging them for water. Total stupidity. Glad to see that it’s not only Queensland that is lead by incompetents.

    • Eno The Wonderdog says:

      07:56am | 19/01/11

      Incredible you can find your way to a front bench position apparently with no education whatsoever. Some mad lord denies climate change and she bleats along. Next thing the Libs will be telling us that the earth is flat and the moon is made of cream cheese! As for Tony Abbot’s bleating about “Stop the NBN” (after all - if people can’t read about it they’ll have to believe his BS) and coming out early declaring that we can’t afford to go into debt to fix the floods (WTF? The waters were still rising Mr Wabbit!)  Right wing loonies everywhere!

    • MarK says:

      08:37am | 19/01/11

      How did your holiday with nosthow go?

    • just sayin' says:

      09:05am | 19/01/11

      “Right wing loonies everywhere”?~ you’re the nutter muttering to yourself about Mr Wabbit, cream cheese moons and some mad lord etc.

    • Sasha says:

      08:31am | 19/01/11

      Sophie, Just want to thankyou for at least someone on this planet to be wise to the fact of Natural Climate Change.

      Climate change is happening all around us, ALL THE TIME, has done for the past millions of years, and will continue to change with or without our existence.

      The point I am trying to make here is that Al Gore and all these climate activists, namely the Greens, do not differentiate between the two issues: Natural Caused Climate Change, or Human Caused Climate Change. These people bucket it all into one and call it climate change, while in fact, they are majorly different. Natural Caused is actually happening and has done forever. Human caused is a theory and cannot be proven. Sure, i am for conserving forests, nature, etc… but in no way are humans or what we do responsible for anything that is happening to the weather and if I were the Greens I would be very careful about what I relate these disasters to (eg. coal industry, etc).

      My thoughts are with all the flood victims and wish for a quick recovery.

    • Luke says:

      08:32am | 19/01/11

      I bet we don’t hear or read anything about floods in the 1800’s from the AGW loonies.

    • Mal says:

      11:37am | 19/01/11

      Yes I notice the global warming crowd haven’t attacked Sophie over her history lesson of the 1800’s.

    • Jan says:

      08:35am | 19/01/11

      Everything is built around contingency plans.  Queensland cities are all built next to river systems and of course flood plains.  Not a case of if but when - I thought everyone that lived there knew that.

    • James says:

      09:06am | 19/01/11

      We are just lucky that Sophie and Co lost the election or we might be going back to learning about where the “edge” of the world is.

    • AdamC says:

      09:17am | 19/01/11

      Climate change is being invoked to explain natural disasters in a similar way that angry Gods were in centuries gone by. It is actually quite embarrassing to observe. The reality, of course, is that neither the QLD floods nor the recent VIC bushfires were at all historically unprecented. Indeed, worse incidents have occurred before.

      However, the human mind has great difficult understanding risk in general, and managing the risk of disasters that may not occur for decades is exceedingly difficult. In my view, we need to be realistic about what systems can be put in place and maintained, unused, for such long stretches.  And it is always very dangerous applying hindight tests and changing things accordingly. The outcomes can be quite perverse.

    • fairsfair says:

      10:05am | 19/01/11

      I agree Adam and I think in terms of Brisbane, the plan that was started (but not finished) would have worked. Had Wolfdene Dam been completed and used as the primary drinking water supply for Brisbane, Wivenhoe could have been left under the 100% capacity that it sat at in the days leading up to this (and I refer to the 100% that is used when talking about general capacity - not absolute). As a lot of experts are saying (though I appreciate nothing is foolproof), the LaNina vs ElNino weather patters can be quite accurately forecast. This means that in times on the back of LaNina both dams could have been filled in preparation for ElNino. Times like now, Wolfdene could have been allowed to fill to assure supply and Wivenhoe could have been continually emptied leaving it at well below half the capacity that it was at in the days before now. It would have caught all the water and with slow release Brisbane would have had a slightly raised river level for a period of time.

      However, I am clearly not a hydrologist and you will note that I have not mentioned which side of politics started and stopped it - because I don’t give a cracker. I just wish people could have a genuine discussion on what you have suggested. I know that this is what Bligh’s inquiry will plan on doing, but I do hope that the concept of the Wivenhoe/Wolfdene link or something similar is revisited. We can not control weather patterns and I have seen other suggestions of a floodwater bypass tunnel - but I just don’t see how that could be more cost effective and just plain effective as a dam would be. 

      It will be interesting to see what comes out in the wash anyway.

    • N says:

      10:28am | 19/01/11

      Well put Adam. I think the main reason for trotting out the “climate change” horse, is to give people a face to place the blame upon. It’s tricky to blame Mother Nature for loss because you can’t grumble and abuse a faceless entity. However once you blame climate change, you get idiots like Bob Brown and Co making absurd claims that it’s the mining industry and wallah; you have a real entity to blame.

      It’s unfortunate that some people can’t come to terms with the fact we are existing on a living entity (the planet) and events such as this happen regardless of the cars we drive.

    • AdamC says:

      11:02am | 19/01/11

      Fairsfair, you may well be right about the possibility of using water storages to manage cyclical weather patterns. In does sound possible in practice, but no doubt prevents vast challenges. I hope that the inquiry that comes of the QLD floods is constructive and looks at viable ideas to mitigate and manage floods. I am worried that the VIC bushfires royal commission, which may serve as something of a model for QLD, did not do this.

      Rather, it applied hindsight tests to the ‘stay or go’ principle and suggested ideas like ‘safer places’, which could be quite disastrous in some circumstances. It also got very finger-pointy, which was unedifying at best.

      I also take your point that we are very much in the hands of experts in these matters.

      N, I think that, perversely, it makes people feel a bit better when they can find a way to blame themselves for nature’s capriciousness. Or, better yet, when they can blame someone else. In the past, the superstitious would persecute religious minorities to gain divine favour, nowadays, the foolish (and their opprtunistic leaders) attack coal exporters in the belief that doing so will prevent floods, which we already know are a perfectly natural hazard. 

      Very unfortunate.

    • Wendy says:

      09:36am | 19/01/11

      Sophie is quite right. Up until the last 30 years we were taught about the floods and the cyclical weather conditions, us oldies are very much aware on how things work. For some reason we are now not being educated on history but on new fangled ideas like global warming. Since the world began it has had a cyclical warming and cooling. Still it must make governments millions to make out its the world population and not just the natural way of the world. I really would like to be around in another 50 years when the uneducated of today are faced with the reality that they were conned in the early half of this century.

    • Mr Pod says:

      09:44am | 19/01/11

      There seems to be a lot of faith in enquiries I’m pretty old and they are largely ignored but serve as an attempt to be seen to be doing something.  I have no doubt a hideously expensive report will be tabled to state government in a years or mores time and quickly filed away.  Meanwhile councils like Moreton Bay Regional Council will heavily develop flood prone land like the banks of the Caboolture River which recently had a 1000 plus sub division approved, that last week went completely under water.

    • Mark says:

      10:49am | 19/01/11

      Well what do you expect when you have morons who believe in global warming and want to save every drop of water because somehow water magically disappears from existence…

      Yes there was a drought - yes we needed to conserve water then - but once over we should have returned to doing what was in the best interests of state (and flood mitigation was part of that…the morons that kept Wivenhoe full because the hippies were panicking over another drought)

    • mid says:

      10:57am | 19/01/11

      This article and comments thread is a brilliant example of how our society is completely and utterly screwed. Come on guys? Politicising a dam? Are you serious?

    • Syl says:

      02:24pm | 19/01/11

      It’s serious when a dam has the potential to save lives and billions of dollars in damage…

    • mid says:

      03:04pm | 19/01/11

      Ugh, I give up. Pack of fanboys the lot of you, can’t see the real issues for the (whatever colour your political leaning) coloured glasses you wear.

    • Syl says:

      04:29pm | 19/01/11

      WOW
      Accuse us of not seeing the real issue, whilst not actually stating the “real issue” at all.
      Please, PLEASE, for the sake of us intellectually challenged people tell us what the “real issue” is.
      Since Im going to assume in advance that you won’t be able to answer this question, I will dismiss you as what I originally thought…. just another idiot who has nothing of worth to say but wants their voice heard anyway.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      10:58am | 19/01/11

      It doesn’t matter that Sophie Mirabella or the other idiot MPs in the Liberal Party don’t believe in AGW. The mandarins that rule in China do. They are investing billions of Yuan in green technology. They have a dual aim of reducing petrochemical dependence and carbon emissions. When they have reached a sufficient low level of carbon emissions rate, they will probably slap on a carbon tariff and start selling green technology to the other countries racing to catch up.

    • BR says:

      11:50am | 19/01/11

      I can only assume that the Billions of Yuan is being invested on ensuring zero volcanic eruptions, zero bushfires and complete clean up of forests to remove decaying plant matter in China. The combination of these top three carbon emitters make up 96% of all emissions.

      I think if you read a little deeper into it, they are more interested in cutting their dependence on oil and absolve themselves from the Middle East issues, rather than overall pollution reduction. Agree they will most likely sell green tech to other gullible countries and make a fortune doing so, good luck to them. They took the old adage of “one born every minute” and supersized it.

    • sheesh! says:

      12:03pm | 19/01/11

      Yes, lets be like China. Will you go kill your second and third child or shall I do that for you?

      You can hardly compare any aspect of both our economy or lifestyle to that of China. There is more than a billion of them and they are live under communism which you may note sees them release only limited, filtered information to the west. I take it you have seen the green technology personally because that would be the only way that I would believe it.

      The Chinese know a good thing when they see it. They are a very intelligent and productive people who I have a lot of respect for. My bet is they identify the desire for this stuff in the western world. They will “perfect” the technology so that “racing” countries like Australia will be lining up to buy it off them in the coming years/decades.

      Oh and though I don’t completely agree with all notions of AGW, I am hardly oblivious to our ongoing destruction of environment. What I do question is the extent of its impact. I am all for cutting back. So don’t even think about bandying back with some stupid argument about me being a liberal stooge and a denier, because I am neither.

      This article is about identifying issues from past weather patterns. You can’t label a person an idiot for accepting historical evidence for cyclical weather events of an extreme nature.

    • Warwick says:

      11:46am | 19/01/11

      Sophie, I am neither a Liberal Party member nor supporter, but I must say that the thrust of your piece is very good. Floods are natural and more must be done to lessen their impact; more dams, possibly, and better management of the dams.

      Bob Brown’s statements are not particularly weird; if it is generally agreed that carbon dioxide released by burning coal is bringing about catastrophic global warming, and that more and greater floods are a component of these catastrophes, then his call for the coal companies to foot the bill for this catastrophe is quite reasonable. Indeed, it is unreasonable of the Prime Minister to claim that a tax must be imposed on coal consumption here in Australia, to bring down the consumption of coal,  and at the same time spend millions of Federal dollars on upgrading the coal ports so that the coal shipped abroad, to be burned overseas, can be increased by hundreds of millions of tons.

      But there is a swarm of flys in the green ointment. The greens and their allies in the anthropogenic, catastrophic global warming scare have claimed that their’s is the only scientific and the only moral position. They have long claimed (we have heard theem on the ABC and elsewhere) that the only people who don’t go along with the AGW story are a handful of nutters on the fringe. But if you do a little research, on the net for example, you will quickly find that there are hundreds and hundreds of top flight scientists, researchers in the fields that make up the understanding of climate, who totally reject the AGW hypothesis. The AGW proponents have known this all along; they simply lied through their teeth.

      How confident can they be in the truth of their story if they have to tell such blatent lies to support it?

      Do a bit more research and you find that although CO2 does act like a blanket in the laboratory, in the atmosphere there are hundreds of countervailing and unpredictable factors at work. There is the behaviour of clouds and the effect of precipitation, for example. In fact, the atmosphere is so immensely complicated that no adequate model of climate can be constructed.

      To give one example, even the most vehement proponents of the AGW hypothesis will admit that the effect of CO2, by itself, would be an insignificant increase of no more than a degree or so. But then they deal a card from the bottom of the deck and claim that this increase will set off a positive feedback brought about by increased evaporation and that this positive feedback will make the world uninhabitable. But this positive feedback is not only highly speculative, it is inconsistent with the way that feedbacks work in nature, for feedbacks are overwhelmingly negative. Even the scientists who don’t laugh the “positive feedback” story out of court are very reluctent to go out on a limb to endorse it..

      You hear the ordinary green- in- the- street talking in awe-filled tones about the “science of global warming” and you are reminded of ordinary Christians- in- the- street who talk with similar awe about the great philosophers, the theologians like the Jesuits, who have gone into the matter in tremendous depth and established that the only reasonable position is that there is a God, Jesus is his Son, and the Christian Church, (or churches if you’re a bit ecumenical) is God’s agent on Earth. These good folk are unaware that the Hindus and the Muslims and the Buddhists have equally profound theologians who have arrived at very different conclusions.

      And the greatest similarity between Christian and Green theologians is the initial foundation of faith, the belief that humankind is wicked, especially when they set out to enjoy themselves, and that only a select priesthood, either Catholic (or Christian), or Green, can save humankind from its essential wickedness.

      The Christian priests claim that we must give up sexual enjoyment, for example, to save our souls.

      The Green priests claim that we have to give up air-conditioning and decent lighting and comfortable cars in order to save the planet. All based on leaps of faith.

      On the foundation of faith you can build huge and complicated structures, “the science of global warming,” for example, but the foundations are rotten.

      Let’s keep track of the names of the global warming scaremongers; we will enjoy their discomfort when, like Paul Ehrlich, they are totally discredited.

    • Kerrie O'Rourke says:

      12:16pm | 19/01/11

      Your comment:
      at the 2010 federal election, Queenslanders flooded The Liberal National Party with huge swings against Labor.
      So Tony Abbott wants to abandon The National Broadband network for all australians and give all that NBN money to the Queensland Floods & Queenslanders
      Now Liberal light bulb Sophie Mirabella says that floods are natural in the Liberal Party Votes Gold Mine Queensland.Bugger Queensland.

    • Thommo says:

      12:40pm | 19/01/11

      Excellent Excellent Article. Although you probably took the bulk of it from my post the other day wink

    • Wynston Cruso says:

      12:57pm | 19/01/11

      This is ridiculous, I have already attempted to add my educated and proffessional opinion on the effects of climate change and poor planning in regards to this disaster (I am an Environmental Planner) and my posts get ignored. Yet here we have uneducated fools and climate change deniers spraying their bullshit all of the place at will. Utter garbage, it seems any moron with a University degree other than that in Environmental Science has climate change all figured out. Seriously if you lack the knowledge to comment - don’t. Sophie, let the grown ups do the talking.

    • Luke says:

      02:40pm | 19/01/11

      Never trust anyone who trumpets their own credibility.

    • AdamC says:

      02:58pm | 19/01/11

      Don’t listen to the knockers, Wynston, they just don’t get it. But I do - actually, I think you’re hilarious.

    • Ange says:

      01:13pm | 19/01/11

      Whether we knew the rains were coming or not, whether we managed controlled dam releases or not…what does it matter? Ultimately we’ve fiddled with natural water courses, built towns beside rivers - worse still, on flood plains - so what do we think is going to happen when we get the inevitable one-in-100-year event?  I guess most of the decision makers figure they won’t be around for the next one so what do they care?

      We continue to build houses in the bush then cry when they burn. We put up McMansions on the sides of hills (for the views of course) then look for someone to blame when they slide down after heavy rains. When will we ever learn that nature can not be fought against but we can certainly mitigate the risks with just a little forward thinking.

    • just-think-about-it says:

      02:04pm | 19/01/11

      Just like the bushfires . . . give us ten years and we’ll be back with our absent-minded greedy approach to building in flood plains and digging into “secret places” within fire-prone valley bushland.
      Government is at fault for not protecting the vulnerable in our community - families.  The Government have agencies which measure and predict such happenings - hydrology, forestry, rivers & waters etc.

    • Shifty Jones says:

      02:20pm | 19/01/11

      Too much common sense Sophie!

    • Shifty says:

      02:37pm | 19/01/11

      Ok everybody keep your opinions to yourself or better still don’t even have one. It seems only enviromental planners such as Wynston Cruso have any idea what’s going on and the rest of us should just butt out.

    • Godfrey Zohn says:

      02:42pm | 19/01/11

      Ah Wynston, Wynston - having some trouble justifying your HECS debt now aren’t you?  Because some of us deny Al Gore’s New Religion doesn’t mean we’re wrong and you’re right.  Maybe there’s a reason your posts are being ignored.

      BTW the genuine professionals know how to spell the word professional.  So sorry you wasted your money on a flavour-of-the month degree.  Hope you can manage to stay in work and pay off that education debt.

    • Wonko the Sane says:

      02:49pm | 19/01/11

      Isolated incidents are clearly indicative of natural cyclic events, just as variations in colour of the skin are indicative of nothing less than normal human health.  But when the entire body turns yellow it often carries a greater suggestion which is of course Jaundice.  I think, perhaps, you have a jaundiced view of things. 

      While being very aware of the increased communication capabilities and information sharing available today (25 years in I.T. do open a certain insight into such things, possibly more than some political senators intent on destructive internet filtering) I do feel the number of ‘unrelated’ incidents being experienced in the world and especially with respect to weather patterns is reaching but not yet attained the point where some significance must be attached to the possibility of widespread climate change. 

      This climate change, if it exists, may be natural or man-made/influenced, but unless we seriously consider it and its implications then we may well end up unable to respond reactively (let alone proactively) to our cost. 

      When it’s too late, it’s too late.  Better safe than sorry (if you’ll pardon the platitude).

    • James says:

      03:02pm | 19/01/11

      If I drop petrol on a bush fire that was started by a lightening strike is it still a “natural” fire?

    • imacca says:

      03:07pm | 19/01/11

      All this bull about how floods being solely natural events is starting to fly a bit thick.

      One of the main predictions of consequences for Global Warming is and increased frequency of EXTREME events.

      So, yup, floods and droughts will happen as they always have, but they are likely to be EXACERBATED by the underlying warming trend.

      Seems to me that thats pretty much what we see happening at the moment.

    • Andrew says:

      03:41pm | 19/01/11

      We all know that, just like in the 1800’s.

    • Syl says:

      04:36pm | 19/01/11

      Didn’t these areas experience more EXTREME (capitalising letters makes your point more true I heard) events in the 1800’s?  Hell go back further, I heard the Ice Ages were pretty EXTREME. (Cheap shot, Im sorry)

      I don’t know if climate change is real or not, I havent read the studies, but your argument is based on a false premise.  Not very convincing.

    • James says:

      08:57am | 20/01/11

      I have read the studies and global warming is exacerbating flooding, that is, it makes a given flood worse.  Warm the Earth, you get more water vapour in the air (think of steam you produce when you turn up the hot tap in a shower), the more water vapour in the air the more water there is to rain.

      It is like walking up to someone on a swing and giving them a push as they are swinging, they will go higher than if you didn’t push them in the first place.

    • Tim H says:

      03:08pm | 19/01/11

      Ha ha ha…. Sophie Mirrabella! Just the person I would call when I wanted insights and advice, and especially scientific insights and advice! Hee hee hee… Oh dear, oh dear the Liberals will be the death of me, I just hope not literally!

    • pro fisherman says:

      03:13pm | 19/01/11

      If Peter Beattie tells you it isnt going to rain, race out and buy yourself a good brolly and a liferaft, google ,shreddergate beattie or the heiner affair and you will understand.

    • Gordicans says:

      03:42pm | 19/01/11

      Sophie lays out in her argument that we “should learn from the lessons of history”.  It would then be reasonable to assume if she was consistant in her argument that she would be stridently against our involvement in the war in Afghanistan would it not?

    • neil says:

      04:06pm | 19/01/11

      Alarmists must have the intellectual capacity of water melons not to see the natural patterns of drought and flood in this country.

    • wonko the sane says:

      05:15pm | 19/01/11

      Life and death are natural patterns.  Not necessarily a good idea to ignore the prospect of the latter just because the former seems to be the norm at the moment…..

    • mags says:

      04:37pm | 19/01/11

      Months before the first lot of heavy rain hit Queensland we had level 6 water restrictions here in Toowoomba. All the dams that service Brisbane and the Gold Coast ( which is Queensland to the government) were full to overflowing and restrictions had been lifted. A pipeline was built up the Range to Toowoomba’s dams and water was pumped up to raise the level from 9% to 15 %. When the first rains hit I asked the Council why Wivenhoe was releasing water into the Brisbane River instead of pumping more up here where it was needed. The reply was first that the pump was broken. A few days later when I asked again I was told that it was too expensive to pump water up to us. That showed me what value the government placed on the Darling Downs in comparison to Brisbane. All Queenslanders know that Queensland is only viewed as Brisbane and the Gold Coast, regional Queensland can go hang for all they care. Now that it’s all water under the bridge, so to speak, suddenly we are important.

      Whatever the outcome of any inquiry, the fact that regional Queensland is left out in the cold constantly by way of infrastructure spending will not change.

    • Nathan says:

      04:39pm | 19/01/11

      I think we should give the dam managers the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise. As recently as March 2010, the dams managers were quite public in rejecting calls from the Liberal National Party in Queensland who wanted more water to be stored in the dam, with less capacity for flood mitigation. The article is here, and unfortunately for Senator Mirabella it wasn’t Tim Flannery or Peter Beattie that wanted the dam to hold more water, but her LNP colleagues.

      http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/plan-to-raise-wivenhoe-dam-storage-level-for-drinking-water/story-e6freon6-1225839328569

      So, I think it would have been worse if the coalition, not the professional authorities ran the dam. I think her ‘history’ lesson to them is rather unfair, unless she also admonishes her colleagues in Queensland.

    • Richard says:

      06:34pm | 19/01/11

      To me, Jeff Seeney was only saying that we should be flexible in our water management strategies (such as taking into account whatever the medium term meteorological forecasts happen to be for instance), instead of just following every rule in the book exactly as was written in the 1980’s unquestioningly and without advancing any further thoughts as to the efficiency/expediency of the operation as it stands.

    • Angry God says:

      10:10pm | 19/01/11

      The use of Wivenhoe at the end of the wet season to store water is sensible, it is the capacity at the beginning that this article and most discussions are based. The article was written in March, it discusses the capacity in post wet season and states the dams purpose as a flood mitigation device. As the flooding is a wet season factor, then the use to compensate for the lack of water capacity in Brisbane (primarily due to the cancellation by Rudd of Wolfdene) for the winter months is a sensible use of the stored water.

      That you choose to read something into an article to create your own incorrect assumptions highlights why we still have an incompetant government supported by visionairies such as Nathan, tchong and TBK.

    • Nathan says:

      09:39am | 20/01/11

      I take your point Richard and angry god, and I agree that’s what should happen, but that’s not what Mr Seeney said in Hansard (google it, I am having trouble copying and pasting the pdf link), or in his later statements. Here are his comments on 6th October, 2010, when the dam did reach its 100% storage capacity and water was being released from the dam:

      http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/10/06/3030928.htm

      Read it and make up your own minds, I promise not to re-post as I will have nothing more to add. Note that I am not defending Labor or the greens as I have not found their public statements on the issue, but I am defending the professionals who operate these dams to the best of their abilities against hindsight politicians. I think they should be given the benefit of the doubt, unless shown otherwise.

    • Angry God says:

      05:38pm | 20/01/11

      Nathan, I acknowledge that Seeney does state this in Hansard, however I was responding to your first linked article, What Seeney states in Hansard is obviously now wrong, however the governments response was also now wrong. I stand by my first statement and hope that both sides of politics can comprehend the full nature of natures potential impacts.

    • Seano says:

      06:47pm | 19/01/11

      Obviously we should study what’s happened here, see what lessons can be learnt and apply them to our future management plans. I would have thought that was standard operating procedure, a no brainer that is almost certainly going to happen anyway.

      But second guessing the people responsible for water management in the area, merely to score political points seems at best unhelpful.

      Almost as silly as scraping a major piece of infrastructure in development on a whim.

    • Mike says:

      08:20pm | 19/01/11

      I think she is trying her best to be named the Queen of Climate Change Sceptics. Just watching her uncouth and thrashy performance in Parliament says it all. They say a little knowledge is a DANGEROUS thing, how true.

    • Patrickb says:

      07:27pm | 20/01/11

      “Instead of actively planning for the inevitable reoccurrence of a devastating flood, it appears that many town planners, engineers and above all their political masters, have simply denied the past.”
      Is she some kind of moron. She IS one of the political masters. I mean she gets a pretty good salary, a car, free air travel and a really nice pension scheme. You think she’d take some responsibility. Oh but I see she’s in the LNP, that explains it.

 

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