NOW there will be a new Defence Minister, Stephen Smith, who will have the rotten task of taking to the podium with Air Chief Marshall Angus Houston to announce that yet another Digger has been killed in action.

Former Defence Minister John Faulkner, right, with ADF chief Angus Houston and Army chief Ken Gillespie. Picture: Ray Strange

Senator John Faulkner did it too many times.

It was clear from watching Faulkner that he truly hated these death calls. He appeared to feel almost too deeply the burden of being the minister in the government which has ordered its troops to fight.

And it is a good thing that he felt the weight. Any politician who did not feel such responsibility would be unfit to serve as minister.

At times, Faulkner’s anguish raised questions in my mind as to the true depth of commitment he carried in his soul for this Afghanistan war.

Faulkner, however, after the spate of recent deaths, stayed strong. He argued that the war was “absolutely vital” for preventing the growth of terrorism and helping the Afghan people build their own security force.

Faulkner cited his personal experience of talking to Australian troops on the ground in Afghanistan, who time and again insisted to him that the mission was crucial.

There is no doubt Faulkner was relaying the true feelings on the troops. Morale is important, but it has never been the responsibility of a Digger to decide when he goes to war, or whether he should stay in that war once he gets there. It is the responsibility of the cabinet.

Running parallel is a growing and somewhat irresistible argument that abandoning the war would be an act of dishonour to those who have fallen. It is of course understandable that the families of those who have died should feel this way.

The problem with this thinking is that it sets forth an emotional strategy of continuing the war based on respect for those who have died. It inadvertently proposes that we never stop losing our troops until there is a form of victory in Afghanistan.

The chances of that happening appear, at this point, very faint. The war is being conducted like a seasonal blood sport, with a playing season and an off-season. And our team captain, the US president, is not convincing when he talks of the value and strategy of the war.

By the time we pulled out of Vietnam in 1972, we had lost 500 too many troops. The people of Australia had made their displeasure known and the government responded. In this war, so like Vietnam in many ways, the public is mute but it is easy to sense the disquiet.

There is a disconnect between Afghanistan and the Australian public, brought about by distance, limited media coverage, and a fear among the military and the government that providing detailed information will offer advantage to the opponent.

Still, Faulkner is no doubt right. There is a will to fight among the Australians. Morale is high in Afghanistan, but it is suffering here.

This is not a new phenomenon. The great Australian author, George Johnston – of “My Brother Jack” fame – was in New Guinea for most of 1942, during which the horrors of Kokoda, Milne Bay, Rabaul and Buna were played out.

Upon return to Melbourne later in that year, he found the Australian public widely depressed about what was happening in New Guinea, with Japan on our doorstep. He wrote in his “New Guinea Diary” that mainland disillusionment was widespread.

“They don’t want me to tell them stories of the valour and morale of our fighting men,” he wrote. He said people would rather hear the “cruel, lying rumours” about Australians fleeing from the Japanese as they came through the Owen Stanley Ranges.

Johnston’s book detailed in extraordinary first-hand colour the remarkable Australian victory in the New Guinea jungles, despite some of the worst conditions – mud, rain, mountains, starvation, malaria - ever known to warfare.

Johnston outlined many incidents of bravery – they were indeed so frequent, he said, that heroism had become rather run-of-the-mill.

But he wanted to tell Australians of one incident which was typical of the many he had seen. He wanted to show that the ragged and gaunt Diggers in New Guinea were not as dispirited as the Australian public imagined.

Johnston was with a party of 21 South Australian infantrymen at Gona, crouched in the kunai grass. He said these men were “thin, haggard, undernourished, insect-bitten, grimy, and physically near the end of their tether”.

Across open ground ahead of them, 70 metres way, the Japanese were holed up in a weapon pits near the base of a huge jungle tree. Two of the Diggers had been already been killed and several wounded when they first tried to take the Japanese position.

“No use sitting round, I guess,” said a 23-year-old subaltern from Glen Osmond. “We might as well get stuck into it!”

A bloke named Shorty, from Renmark, tossed his hand grenade in the air and caught it nonchalantly. He was doing the numbers, calculating how many of them wouldn’t make it.

The lieutenant said: “According to Shorty here, this job’s going to mean 15 of us won’t get through.”

A lanky Digger said: “Wouldn’t count of it. He was always an optimist.” They all laughed. The lanky bloke winked at Johnston and said: “Give us a good write up.”

Then the Australians did it. They ran in a straight line at the Japanese, directly into machine gun fire. There was no use zig-zagging in the face of spraying bullets. Shorty died just short of the Japanese pit. Shorty was wrong. Nine of the Diggers got through.

“They wiped out the post, killing every one of the 19 Japs inside,” wrote Johnston. “That is the meaning of morale. I saw that happen. I saw many other incidents just as expressive of the fighting spirit that makes these young Australians the world’s best assault troops.”

He added: “There is nothing wrong with morale on the fighting front. It is a pity it isn’t as good on the home front.”

It is easy believe nothing has changed in the Digger mindset in 70 years. The character remains the same and we do not question their bravery. Angus Houston was surely right when he said the recent death of Lance Corporal Jared McKinney would only increase the resolve of our Diggers in Afghanistan.

But the menace of IEDs pits our soldiers against a cowardly but effective form of remote-control savagery. This a particularly frustrating form of soldier’s death, because there is no pitched battle, no seeing the whites of the enemies’ eyes, no exercise of skill in being blown up.

The level of sacrifice in such deaths seems particularly poignant because it is such a waste.

Australians lend their hearts to the dead soldiers and their families. But it does not follow that the Australian public gives its blessing to this war. Faulkner, before leaving the Defence post, urged Australians should have a full parliamentary and community debate about Afghanistan.

In a time when both major parties are unlikely to change their position on Afghanistan, it is up to the Australian community to reveal its real thoughts and take some ownership, or denunciation, of this war.

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64 comments

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    • greatnanforpeace says:

      07:52am | 15/09/10

      Bring them home. I don’t know why we are there . I don’t buy the ‘fighting for our freedom’ rubbish. Seems just as flimsy as Vietnam to me and nothing , nothing is worth a young man’s life

    • acotrel says:

      08:51pm | 15/09/10

      I’m not a war lover, but I disagree with the suggestion that nothing is worth fighting for.  100,000 Australian soldiers fought and died in two world wars to oppose authoritarianism.  The Kaiser as well as Hitler were direct threats to democracy.  The Taliban is violently opposed to capitalism,  and our democracy, and statements supporting that stance have been openly made in Australia.  Even if we walked away from Afghanistan, we’d eventually have to stand up and be counted, our basic freedoms are threatened, and the problem won’t just go away. However, the joke gets really bad when an argument that we’re fighting for freedom is posed by a political party which supports conscription.  Vietnam was obscene!

    • Doug Graves says:

      08:19am | 15/09/10

      There is a vast difference in every theatre of war,to lump Vietnam,New Guinea and Afghanistan into one,would seem to be problematic. The Japs were on our doorstep and heading south,a just war if there is such a thing. Vietnam a war that ended with draft dodging,moratoriums and street protest. Afghanistan,where we are the invaders asking or telling the locals what we expect them to do. .Seven years on and the fight continues, for how much longer,what are we doing, killing insurgents defending their land,culture,religion ,are we suppressing terrorism , how many I.E.D,s have gone off in Sydney this week…none,

    • Old ex-serviceman says:

      10:38am | 15/09/10

      what will you do or say in the event of an I.E.D.  going off in Sydney, prevention is better than cure, that is what this is all about, this is what it has always been about, if it is tour son or daughter your brother or sonme other relative that is killed by a terrorist attack here on Australian soil, I would hope you change your mind, or if you didn’t maybe you should be interned like people where during world war 2.

    • Steve says:

      01:39pm | 15/09/10

      The Japanese were never attempting to invade Australia, and John Curtin knew it. See Peter Stanley, ‘Invading Australia’ (Viking, 2008).

    • Gregg says:

      02:33pm | 15/09/10

      With all due respect Old e-s
      Sure if Australia was attacked we should defend and defend and counter- attack with whatever means we have.
      I cannot recall what was going down in Afghanistan prior to the Ruskies invading but it has basically been a Civil war since and it was 911 being connected to Osama even with a bunch of Saudis having cell connections in Europe that had the Yanks attacking.
      And mind you the Yanks have been all over the ME ever since WW2 with supporting Iran when it was Persia, Israel, even Iraq before invading, the Saudi, and getting into Somalia so it’s not as though they have made a bunch of friends in the region.
      So if you were an Afghani and belonged to a Pashtun tribe [ 60% of Afghanis and probably the poorer ] , those that make up the Taliban and so along have come the Ruskies and next it’s the Yanks and other invaders, are you going to want to fight back?
      If they have the same thinking that you as an Aussie have, I’d reckon they would.
      Meanwhile we’re getting some of the ones that are not wanting to take the Civil War battle up.

    • Gregg says:

      02:35pm | 15/09/10

      So Steve, despite the several hundred odd bombing attacks you reckon Curtin was right do you?

    • Grid says:

      09:32pm | 15/09/10

      Steve your a moron. The Japanese archives state that Australia was a prime objective. Subs in Sydney harbour? was it a day trip or to test resistance?
      Vietnam, how can you win a war when the UN makes you fight with your hands tied….... Oh No don’t bomb the north no don’t attack just hold the line. Stupidity. This is what we have in Afghanistan. If we can not prosecute this war properly then bring the troops home and hope for the best. The smart thing is to fight the enemy wherever he is if we don’t we get pointless deaths.
      As an ex Infantry man I say fight to protect our values but fight with all means at our disposal or get out.
      I do agree that the whole middle east is not as valuable as one drop of Australian blood. So stop making it harder for our fighting men. The ones who ensure you can sleep soundly cause they do the dirty but necessary work.

    • acotrel says:

      09:52pm | 15/09/10

      ‘The Japanese were never attempting to invade Australia, and John Curtin knew it.’

      And the Japanese were so predictable?  They’s sunk the Russian Navy at Vladivostok, and the American Navy at Pearl Harbour by being sneaky.  But we Australians could always trust them.  We should have just followed Bob Menzie’s lead when he allowed iron t o be sold to them, (and it came back as bombs)! A measure of their morality can been seen in the way they claim to be doing scientific research on whales, and the samples end up on the tables in restaurants in Japan!

    • mini me says:

      08:24am | 15/09/10

      In the modern era, the only way to become/remain economically relevant is to:

      1. Have Nuclear Weapons
      2. Be a sycophant of someone with nuclear weapons (that would be our relationship with America)
      3. Become an insurgent, militant, freedom fighter, terrorist or guerrilla.

      Having a conventional military capability is meaningless unless you have nukes to back it up.

    • centurion48 says:

      08:31am | 15/09/10

      Well said Paul Toohey. I spent my career in the Army and would have gone to any war or conflict that the government decided to support because that was my job and soldiers must do as they are told. I signed up because I believe in the defence of Australia and its interests. However, it does not mean that my personal opinion is to support the Iraq or Afghanistan wars. I believe they are both errors of political judgment and are shedding lives on both sides unnecessarily.
      Australia has nothing to gain and a lot to lose by remaining in Afghanistan.

    • Peter says:

      09:00am | 15/09/10

      “soldiers must do as they are told” - no, they have a moral obligation to resign or claim a conscious objection if they believe the conflict is wrong.

      “the defence of Australia and its interests” - is it in Australia’s intersets to have Afghanistan a training ground for Islamofascists?

      “Australia has nothing to gain and a lot to lose by remaining in Afghanistan” - fight them obver there or fight them over here?  It’s your choice, mate.

    • acotrel says:

      09:58pm | 15/09/10

      ‘soldiers must do as they are told” - no, they have a moral obligation to resign or claim a conscious objection if they believe the conflict is wrong.

      Peter, I bet you wouldn’t be game to tell Simon Townsend that!

    • T.Chong says:

      08:50am | 15/09/10

      A good article until 4th last para, then nonsense.
      So the afghan nationals are cowardly because they wont engage our forces with the missle and artillary back up we have?
      IEDs are “cowardly” ? unlike helicopter launched missles?
      Author Paul, are you aware that special forces, including our SAS also plant bombs, and stage ambushes ? In fact Force Z in Timor carried out these very type of operations against the Japanese. Were they cowardly?
      Equating “our “actions as brave and heroic while “their “actions are cowardly, unworthy, etc is odios jingoism.
      Bring all of our invasion / occupation forces out, and let the US fight.
      The whole thing is purely their war.

    • TheRealDave says:

      10:56am | 15/09/10

      Are you going to sit there and compare trained soldiers belonging to a proper established organisation ie the Australian Army, wearing the easily recognisable military uniform targetting and attaching explosives to military transports in a planned military operation in a time of total war to a few middle ages tribesmen with no uniform and no affiliation outside their local tribe indiscriminately placing mines and IEDs out amongst the civilian populace? Or the same trained an uniformed professional soldiers ambushing insurgents with modern weaponry, training, accuracy, professionalism and discipline with the same untrained tribesmen using women and children as human shields and firing from inside houses with civilians in them?

      Seriously?

      Maybe you should read up on Afghanistan, who we are fighting, their tactics, their weapons etc and how many of the civilian Afghanis these wackos are killing on a daily basis. Over 80% of ALL civilian deaths are directly attributable to Al Queda, the Taliban and local anti-government forces due to their ‘heroics’ and deliberate campaign of terror and retribution.

      Its not ‘brave’ to dig a hole at night, drop in an antitank mine on a village footpath and piss off back home not caring who it kills. It is however brave to lay on your guts eyeball to eyeball with that mine that could tear apart a tank and defuse then dispose of it, knowing it could explode in your face at any second, so as to make that path safe for local villagers to use. Several of our Engineers have died trying to do that already.

    • Gregg says:

      02:40pm | 15/09/10

      Do you know the Afghanis Real Dave?
      Would you fight back anyway you could if you had been invaded by foreign forces taking sides in what was a civil war and the side taken was not yours?

    • TheRealDave says:

      04:35pm | 15/09/10

      Irrelevant Greg. What is fact is the callous disregard anti-government, Taliban and ‘Insurgent’ forces show when they plant IEDs in and aroudn civilians. IEDs which more often than not kill and maim innocent civilians on a daily basis.

      Nothing ‘brave’ about it at all.

    • The Clairvoyant says:

      04:57pm | 15/09/10

      Its not ‘irrelevant’ - the invader cannot choose the mode of combat. In any event, this nonsense about civilians is exactly that - nonsense. Most IEDs are remote controlled and timed to pick off the occupiers vehicles and so on…its not in the Talibans interest to not win hearts and minds. American missiles and drone attacks are the largest contributor to Afghan civilian deaths and the single biggest impediment to Karzai being taken seriously (besides his corruption and ownership of property inDubai bought with aid money that is)

    • payday che lea says:

      05:24pm | 15/09/10

      the difference t chong, is that our forces target the insurgents and terrorists, not the civilians.  same cannot be said about the taliban or al qeada.

      But i do agree we wont achieve much in afghanistan.  The money which finances islamic terrorism world wide all comes from one country:  Saudi Arabia.  That is where we should be fighting…..

    • TheRealDave says:

      08:24pm | 15/09/10

      @Clairvoyant - I’d suggest you read the reports coming out of the UN (thats UN not US) and independent third parties that clearly state that the overwhelming majority of Afghani civilian deaths - over 80% in one UN report, are attributed to the ‘Taliban’.

      Unless you are using your mystical powers to divine your own statistics. I’d hate for you to learn something instead of making things up as you go….

    • Grid says:

      09:51pm | 15/09/10

      Clairvoyant… how wrong can you be. Very very few IEDs are remotely detonated they primarily use a pressure plate trigger that can set of by a cart. The biggest killer of civilians is the insurgents look at the numbers just like in Iraq. We developed smart bombs to avoid civilian casualties but what can you do, how can you avoid it when human “shields” are in constant use.
      And of course the Taliban won the hearts and minds of the people with the regular stonnings, taking away education for women ( you do know they sneak in to girls schools and poison the water don’t you…. that is now) the forcing of males to fight for them or be killed. Take you blinkers off.
      Chong stop comparing apples and oranges. These people have no honor or they would wear a uniform, yes they would be beaten but at lest they would not be hiding behind women’s skirts. A peace could then be negotiated.

    • acotrel says:

      10:03pm | 15/09/10

      ‘But i do agree we wont achieve much in afghanistan.  The money which finances islamic terrorism world wide all comes from one country:  Saudi Arabia.  That is where we should be fighting….. ‘

      Isn’t there oil in Saudi Arabia?
      Always good fo a giggle, a lot of these posts!

    • Gregg says:

      10:03pm | 15/09/10

      Irrelevant in your own mind set TRD.
      The anti government Taliban were pretty much in control of most of Afghanistan as a result of their civil war and as such have every right to claim government as one installed by invading forces.
      That’s what they fight about and why they have other nationalities supporting them.
      We may not agree with their practices but then there’s a lot of countries where there are human rights problems and are we going to have them on the hit list too?

    • Chris Topher says:

      08:58am | 15/09/10

      This is the problem with modern warfare, governments try and satisfy everybody and subsequently satisfy nobody. They put troops in there to satisfy those that want to do the job, but not enough troops to do the job effectively in order to “satisfy” the peaceniks. Either you go all out and do the job properly (Even if it means lots of troops) with a steadfast and unwavering commitment or you don’t do it at all.

    • Gregg says:

      02:47pm | 15/09/10

      @Wayne,
      Whilst I would never denigrate any one in uniform or at least with the exception of a copper needlessly giving me a ticket, there is right and wrong.
      That question may still be asked by some about Vietnam, my own trip there in 1993 making me ask it all the more.
      We should not meekly accept that it is the right thing to support being in Afghanistan just because we have troops there.
      Look at who we’re supporting and why, there being something of a history right throughout the region with support for even Iran when they were Persia, Iraq at some stage, the Saudis and we all know why.
      This moved on from 911 vengeance to much the same as Vietnam and the question again needs to be asked.

    • Eric says:

      04:52pm | 15/09/10

      Gregg, when you visited Vietnam in 1993, you may have missed seeing the two million people who were murdered by the Communists after their takeover in 1975.

      They’re easy to miss ... because they’re dead.

    • acotrel says:

      10:06pm | 15/09/10

      Gregg, when you visited Vietnam in 1993, you may have missed seeing the two million people who were murdered by the Communists after their takeover in 1975.

      They’re easy to miss ... because they’re dead.


      Eric can you substantiate this claim?

    • Wayne Fehlhaber says:

      08:59am | 15/09/10

      We live in a free , democractic society in which we are able to travel anywhere throughout the nation , without fear of threat or challenge. Afghans would give anything for the freedom we enjoy . To use the distance between their country and ours as an excuse to ignore their plight is abhorrent. Why are Afghans fleeing their country for our shores in flimsy boats ? . The answer , of course is that their home country was in the grip of terrorists , who continue to wage a war against the people , so that they regain a position of power. The Taliban are reinforced with mercenaries , trained to maim and kill indiscriminately. It is the training ground for Al Qeda terrorists led by Bin Laden , who specialises in worldwide terrorism.
      Currently , a trial is proceeding in Australia , for men involved in a terrorist plot to attack and kill Australian soldiers at an Australian army base.
      There is every reason indeed , to maintain our presence in Afghanistan , to preserve the freedom we enjoy here . We take the fight to those who send terrorists among us , with the intent to inflict the same horrors on our nation .
      Questioning the moral ethics of doing what we know must be done , serves only to demoralise those whom we send to fight the terrorists in their own backyard. We made that mistake during the Vietnam campaign and those soldiers who fought the vietcong are still sufferring the treatment meted out to them on their return home. Let’s not make the same mistakes . In the case of Afghanistan , we know well what our committment is to be and our soldiers need our firm backing , morally , ethically and with our firm belief that what we are doing is right.

    • Wayne Fehlhaber says:

      06:30pm | 15/09/10

      Gregg :  You seem to be missing the whole point of my comment .
      I have not stated we should support being in Afghanistan because we have troops there . What i said was that we should give our troops full moral and ethical backing for the job they are doing and also because what they are doing is right . It is right for Afghanis to have the same freedoms which Australians have and it is right that we have committed troops to fight for that right.
      There is no doubt that Australians would expect democratic countries to come to our aid if we were under threat from the likes of the Taliban and terrorists in Afghanistan.
      I suggest you talk to a few Vietnam Vets. about the welcome home they received at the hands of leftist scumbags and malingerers , being spat on and called murderers.You deride 911 vengeance , but i’d be willing to bet you would be screaming for a reckoning if the same thing was perpetrated on Australians and members of your own family died as a result .

    • Gregg says:

      10:19pm | 15/09/10

      I think you split hairs Wayne with
      ” I have not stated we should support being in Afghanistan because we have troops there . What i said was that we should give our troops full moral and ethical backing for the job they are doing and also because what they are doing is right . “
      rather than I am missing your point.
      I’ve not got any quarter for people abusing any service people because they are doing a governments bidding but that does not mean I need to agree with a governments decision.
      Terrorism should be fought but there are ways of doing it and with aerial surveillance there is nothing to stop having training camps reularly obliterated.
      But as for saying lets install a government because we do not like the Taliban, how many countries around the planet have governments that aren’t too kind to their own and so do we have a hit list to attempt to do them all over?.
      That’ll just about give us endless warfare and the armageddon so often predicted.
      If or when we experience terrorist attacks, we’ll probably deal with it ourselves, label the Taliban and Al Qeada or their mates in Indonesia for it and seeing as we’re already in Afghanistan not be able to do too much more about it.
      I doubt we would be invading Indonesia to attempt dealing out some punishment.

    • DJ says:

      09:03am | 15/09/10

      What is the point of this crazy war. All we are achieving is a waste of good young Aussie and American men while the refugee lines get longer.
      If the country is overrun by the Taliban again so be it, it seems that’s what the crazy fundamentalists want, to live in their nirvana with Sharia law, let’em have it.
      If they become a terrorist haven to threaten the western world again, the answer is simple ...... Nuke ‘em.

    • N says:

      10:57am | 15/09/10

      DJ; “the point of this crazy war” is to finish off what the CIA started back in the late 70’s, when they bankrolled the Mujahidin (who used the same apparently “cowardly” attacks) to oust the Soviets.  You see once the job was done, the US pulled support from Afghanistan and left a country destroyed and very much disillusioned, to the point where a fanatic such as Osama Bin Laden (who was on our side) becomes a voice of reason.

      Now I’m clearly simplifying this for two reasons, one; it’s a long and difficult history to understand what led up to the invasion of Afghanistan and two; when I see your idea of “simple…Nuke ‘em” , it’s clear I’m talking to someone with severely diminished capacity and common sense.

    • TimB says:

      12:14pm | 15/09/10

      N, this is what I don’t understand about the whole situation. The US propped up these people so they could fight off the Soviet Union. The Societ Union is successfully repelled so the flow of cash, weapons etc from the US stops.
      What were they expecting? The money to keep flowing in after the war was won? Why should they have expected this? Is this where this hatred for America stems (fuelled by radical Islam of course), simply because the gravy train didn’t keep on rolling?

      I know I’m probably missing something here, if anyone wants to fill me in that would be good.

    • Steve says:

      01:41pm | 15/09/10

      TimB, the people weren’t necessarily expecting anything. What happened, however, was that the US armed a country to the teeth and then left a vacuum. They didn’t care about reconstruction, just sticking one up the USSR.

    • N says:

      02:20pm | 15/09/10

      TimB; Steve took much of the words out of my mouth. The US basically used the Afghani people in that particular war under the age old mantra “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” and you could say the same about the Soviets backing the VietCong.

      I guess the Afghanis shouldn’t have expected anything; they were a means to an end, an expendable fighting force with no body bags and grieving families to mess up the political landscape back in the US. However I would certainly expect some reparation and ongoing support if my countrymen where dying to fight someone else’s enemy for them.  When you see the billions handed over in arms to Mujahidin fighters, but not a dime for reconstruction purposes, you understand why they would be so p!ssed off.

      The US ‘seem’ to have learnt from this mistake to some degree, as you see the effort going into rebuilding of Iraq after the fall of the Ba’ath Party. Similarly places like Kabul are undergoing reconstructive efforts and even though it seems silly, the “hearts and minds” battle is very real. Its pointless liberating a people (not suggesting that they actually needed liberating, that’s another argument), and them not knowing about it.

    • TimB says:

      03:44pm | 15/09/10

      I thought it might be something like that, but the reasoning only makes sense if the Afghans had no intention of fighting the Soviets in the first place.
      If the only reason they fought was because the US came along with weapons and told them to fight, then yes, the US bears responsibility for what happened.
      If however they were going to fight anyway….the country still would have sufferred. I would have thought then the blame should have been aimed at the actual invaders (USSR) as opposed to the country that helped them out.

      It all comes down to whether responsibility for the conflict can be attributed directly to the US, or if the US merely took advantage of the stuation that was happening regardless. (I’ll have to do some reading on it,  it was a little before my time)

      Of course regardless of what blame the US may or may not shoulder for those past events, the real question is does it justify the current behaviour of the radicals? I would say no. That’s why the US & its allies should stay the course.

    • N says:

      04:23pm | 15/09/10

      TimB; Agree; this event was before my time as well and I’m doing my best to come up to speed on it while attempting to navigate around the propaganda bullsh!t from both sides of the argument.

      I look at it as if the Afghan / Soviet conflict was akin to the US / Iraq conflict at present, with some hypothetical factors. In this instance, Iraq is backed by a greater nation (let’s say China). Now instead of the US “shock and awe”, take over which lasted a few months and resulted in far less destruction of the country and it’s citizens. In this instance you have a heavily supplied resistance dragging the conflict out for 10+ years of bitter fighting. I’m pretty confident that when the dust settles and the hypothetical Chinese support is removed, the Iraqi people would be infuriated at being used as pawns in a greater struggle.

    • Father of serving soldier says:

      09:21am | 15/09/10

      You are right to say that Cabinet has the first and last say on going to war, but serving soldiers and their families are stakeholders too.  Their opinions should not be the final word, but they do matter.  The fact that we are losing soldiers in Afghanistan is not a surprise to soldiers over there.  It is also not a surprise to their families.  This was a reality they faced up to long ago.  This was a reality that they accepted when the volunteered.  They are not saying that the only reason to stay is to honour their loved ones.  All they are asking is that the death of their mates and loved ones not be the reason to go home.  This is war and this is what happens.  Make the case to stay or go independent of the recent losses.  To do otherwise puts at risk the lives of current serving soldiers and generations to come.  Because the message is clear: make Australians bleed (just a little) and they will run away.  “Bringing them home” sounds great, but it is your children and grandchildren who may have to clean up the mess.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      09:35am | 15/09/10

      IEDs are cowardly? The whole point of guerilla warfare is to effectively attack the enemy’s weak points while minimizing contact with a militarily strong occupying force. On that point, theorists such as Mao Tse Tung, Ernesto Guevara and Carlos Marighela were unanimous.

    • Roja says:

      10:56am | 15/09/10

      Guess that makes us massive cowards - what with Predator drones, Artillery, Air Strikes and Cruise missiles.

      I would not say cowardly, I would say desperate.  They are desperate to attack their enemy with the most effective weapons availbale to them.  Where we are desperate to protect the lives of our soldiers with everything we have available, which fortunately is usually more effective - it’s finding them to bring those weapons to bear that is the problem.

    • TheRealDave says:

      10:58am | 15/09/10

      See my comments above. Digging a hole at night on a village footpath and dropping in explosives isn’t heroic. Especially when you don’t give a crap who it kills. And more often than not its ordinary Afghani civvies who are killed by them.

    • Michael says:

      01:44pm | 15/09/10

      One might also note that it’s debatable whether the Geneva Conventions on military combatants apply to guerilla forces, since they by definition hide among the populace and are not identifiable as enemy combatants.  The only real protection guerillas have from getting blown away by conventional military is that they hide among the civilian population and Western media and/or squeamish governments protect them.

      The proper approach in cases where you identify a guerilla hotspot within a civilian city is to give good notice to all the inhabitants—“innocent civilians” or otherwise—that you intend to take it and will deem anyone remaining there after the assault date as a suspected enemy combatant.  Then take it.  Civilians are not stupid.  In World War Two long streams of civilians fleeing battle fronts was a common occurrence - they called them refugees back then.  And World War Two was won.  The second battle of Fallujah was waged in this way, and again, the US won it, with the then-head of the insurgency in Iraq reduced to whingeing about how Iraqis failed to support the insurgency.

      Make no mistake.  Guerillas hide in the population because they can’t compete with conventional armed forces in the open.  Where they do so, they are using civilians as human shields.  The responsibility for civilian casualties in those circumstances is that of the guerillas, not the conventional force involved.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      02:38pm | 15/09/10

      The western or Clausewitzian philosophy of war emphasizes war with maximum force. An eastern or Sun Tzu philosophy of war emphasizes an indirect approach, preferably winning a war without fighting a battle. In an asymmetric conflict it only makes sense to inflict casualties using IEDs. Words like heroic or cowardly don’t even enter into the vocabulary of a war like this. It’s a nasty little war and I’d put money on the Afghani guerillas being there long after every western nation has gone home.

    • TheRealDave says:

      04:37pm | 15/09/10

      @Shane - its a pity then that Western Military doctrine has been hamstrung by economics, domestic politics and the furphy of ‘Proportional Response’.

    • Fred says:

      09:59am | 15/09/10

      A fine article Paul, thank you. John Faulkner modelled wisdom and integrity and I trust his words on the sense of mission our professional soldiers express.   
      If the war remains “absolutely vital” for preventing the growth of terrorism and helping the Afghan people build their own security force, to be consistent we must respond with more understanding and compassion to the Hazara asylum seekers fleeing persecution in Ghazni where no vote in this weekend’s election can be safely cast because the Taliban still rules, massacres and persecutes Hazara. I cannot comprehend why 2 000 Hazara asylum seekers are incarcerated by Australia in increasingly crowded and damaging conditions, and the processing of their claims to be refugees has been suspended since April. We should embrace the cause of the Afghan people who were forced to flee as well as those in Afghanistan for whose peace and freedom our soldiers fight today. .

    • Eric says:

      03:44pm | 15/09/10

      Well, Fred, that would be because the asylum shoppers arriving on our shores in boats are not fleeing any sort of persecution. They’ve all come from Indonesia, where they are perfectly safe.

      It’s sad that this needs to be repeated again and again, but some people just don’t ever seem to get the point.

    • TheRealDave says:

      11:10am | 15/09/10

      The real point, which everyone keeps overlooking is whether or not we decide to keep losing Diggers because we have a pathetic contribution to the war and are leaving our Digs horribly exposed and undermanned to do the job they are supposed to be doing.

      We don’t have enough troops there to do anything but patrol out, get contacted, pull back into the FOB - rinse and repeat. The same stupidity the Yanks and the Brits have been doing since about 2003 but have ‘surged’ their troop numbers so they can ‘take the fight’ to the enemy and break the deadlock we have been in. We don’t have the troops to patrol out and dominate the area 24/7 and deny the enemy the ability to go out and drop IEDs everywhere. In Vietnam we had entire companies out on patrol constantly for weeks on end. That’s real counter-revolutionary warfare. 3 entire Battalions secured Phouc Tuy province during Vietnam. We have an entire Company minus of Infantry in Oruzgan. So when you hear the TV news say 6RAR think to yourself, well no, its not 6RAR, just about 1/4 of 6RAR. And then think further ..well…that leaves 7 entire battalions sitting on their arses here in Australia and 3/4’s of 6RAR here as well.

      Right now - Diggers lives are being lost because we are only making a token political effort, the barest minimum we can get away with and still brown nose the US. Thats criminal in my view.

      So when are we going to make an actual commitment to do the job? If we are not then we shouldn’t be there. Simple. End of Story.

    • neil says:

      11:13am | 15/09/10

      “cowardly but effective form of remote-control savagery”

      Obviously our soldiers on the ground who call in an autonomous drone to fire a missle authorised by a “pilot” sitting in front of a vidoe screen in an airconditioned office in Nevada are much braver.

    • Michael says:

      01:55pm | 15/09/10

      Calling in fire support, or artillery, is a legitimate military tactic, actually.  Has been since at least the first World War or so.  Simple fact is there isn’t a moral quantity to be attached to war, only the Geneva Conventions which exist to provide a modicum of human decency.  And the Geneva Conventions (a) do not apply to out-of-uniform combatants, and (b) are not being respected by the insurgents in Afghanistan, whereas Western forces are going above and beyond the Geneva Convention to avoid civilian casualties.  That’s part of the reason we’re not winning in Afghanistan.

    • For God and Country says:

      11:32am | 15/09/10

      How is that Oil Pipeline going? Seems an awful lot of blood has been shed for very little steel laid. That oil isn’t going to transport itself from kazakhstan guys - charge!!!

    • Ash says:

      12:04pm | 15/09/10

      Really “...up to the Australian community…”?

      The final words of this story enunciate a growing national problem. “... it is up to the Australian community to reveal its real thoughts and take some ownership, or denunciation, of this war.”

      How can that happen? The continuing alienation and progressive fragmentation of “the Australian community” has created a population that is now longer an homogeneous society capable of taking a national position or forming collective opinions about most matters that involve religious/cultural elements of this nature.

      Most Australians have become unwilling to be guided by an increasingly elite intelligentsia that has so estranged itself from the mainstream it can no longer relate to the daily experience of society at large.

      Because of this conundrum, politicians will have no choice but to continue to make the decisions about Australian involvement in Afghanistan.

    • Michael says:

      12:12pm | 15/09/10

      I support the troops, but we shouldn’t be in Afghanistan.  It has nothing to do with the body count - the casualty rate is lower than pretty well any other conflict we’ve been in for a good thirty years or so.

      The problem is the way the war is being waged at the strategic level - not the operational level.  Australian troops do their damnedest and their best when given a military task to complete: see Gallipoli, the Western Front, Vietnam for details.  But an individual Australian trooper’s beliefs about whether or not he’s doing any long term good, or whether we should stay in Afghanistan, are beside the point.  That’s what we have generals and governments for—the bigger picture.  And it’s perfectly possible to have fully committed troops dedicated to a cause when that cause is militarily not achievable or just plain militarily stupid: see Gallipoli, the Western Front, Vietnam for details.

      Our commitment is tiny compared to the US, so it is the US’s commitment we should focus on and consider.  We initially went in with Bush.  Bush is no longer in the White House.  Obama said during his election campaign he’d pull the US out of Afghanistan.  He lied about that.  Then he increased the troop commitment—but still not enough to actually do the job it’s apparently meant to be there doing.  It was the classic politician’s attempt at trying to recover some of the other side’s base since you’d lost some of your own, a centrist approach.  Problem is that equivocating in this case makes the problem worse, not better.  A limited surge is the same as no surge, as we’ve seen.  General Shinseki testified before Congress that the US would need in the order of hundreds of thousands more troops in Afghanistan than are there now, and thereby committed career hara-kiri by doing so.  They basically “performance managed” him out of a job for saying that.  And as it is, in Afghanistan there are far less US troops per square kilometre than there were in Vietnam.  And the US/Australia lost in Vietnam even with that troop density.

      The results speak for themselves: sitting cooped up in fortified positions during the night while the enemy runs around setting up IEDs to their hearts’ content.  Doing stupid things like going to backwater towns just to show you’re there, driving only in troop transports which can only go on roads in Afghanistan and thereby turning your transport into a sitting duck for IEDs, tuning the rules of engagement so you use minimum force where civilians are present—even though the enemy in question generally hides among the civilians, dresses like the civilians, and more often than not *are* the civilians.

      Obama is only in Afghanistan because he is too scared of the accusation from the Republicans that he’s soft on terrorism if he pulls out.  This would mean literally hundreds of US troops are dying only because he can preserve his, and the Democrats’, chances of being re-elected.  And that is *exactly* the same situation as was in the later stages of the Vietnam War.  It also doesn’t help that the US armed forces are a careerist bureaucracy whose job, since the Korean War, has been to talk a good game and look the part and which has not won an asymmetrical conflict (or symmetrical, for that matter) since Korea.

      These are the morons we’re committing Australian troops to help.  If the US refuses to do what’s required to conclusively win in Afghanistan, why the hell should Australia be in there risking our troops and giving our all? We can’t pacify (or re-educate, or Westernise, or whatever the flavour of the month is) Afghanistan on our own.  We are there in support of the US.  If the US’s approach is flawed, we have a responsibility to militate to have them change their approach or stop risking our own people on the ground.

      We have done this before.  It was an Australian officer who slowly persuaded the US high command to change its approach in Iraq to one that had a better success rate (which is pretty much paying off the local warlords, but hey, that conflict was even more questionable than Afghanistan, so, beggars…) by trying to educate US commanders that his approach worked and worked better than theirs.

      It is demonstrable from the identities of the 9/11 hijackers, those behind the Madrid bombings, and those behind the Bali bombings that Afghanistan is not providing troops to the terrorist movement.  More to the point, it would appear the terrorists move around from country to country.  If we have eliminated the terrorist presence in Afghanistan, it’s time to leave.  If they come back, visit again and eliminate it again.

    • Eric says:

      02:28pm | 15/09/10

      You make many good points, Michael, but I must object to the implication that US/Australian forces lost militarily in Vietnam. There was a military victory for our side in the Tet Offensive - but a civilian decision to withdraw for political reasons.

    • Michael says:

      05:27pm | 15/09/10

      With regret, Eric, I think the result speaks louder than words.  At the end of the day, the West got out of Vietnam, and it was conquered by North Vietnam shortly afterwards.  Call it a civilian reason to withdraw for political reasons or a tactical advance to the rear, that result is still the same.  Had there been military victory in Vietnam there would have been no need to make the civilian decision to withdraw for political reasons.

      Although the Tet Offensive illustrates perfectly why insurgents stay in civvies—because when they do come out of the villages or the jungle, Western conventional force is still unmatched.

      This is not to decry Australian forces.  Most truthful military writers from David Hackworth down acknowledge Australian troops in Vietnam had a higher clearance rate and better operational record than US units across the board.  But the US was mostly running the show over there, and the US does not know how, and does not care to learn how, to fight asymmetrical wars, or at the very least it chooses not to because it’s too squeamish.

    • TheRealDave says:

      08:29pm | 15/09/10

      @Michael, there were plenty of Military victories in South Vietnam. Its hard to fight a war when you have to wave at your enemy because they flee back over a line on a map to rest and recuperate to have another crack. Which is what the North Vietnamese did. They pissed off back over the border until 1975 and the Yanks had departed before rolling back down and taking over the South.

      Kinda like we are doing now by allowing anti-government and ‘Taliban’ forces to flee into the mountains and into Pakistan to rest and rearm before taking another crack in the ‘Fighting Season’.

      Thats political failing - not military.

    • Greg says:

      01:46pm | 15/09/10

      I agree, IEDs represent (one of many) ‘cowardly’ means of enemy destruction employed in the Afghan conflict. Afghan citizens probably feel much the same way about carpet bombing, and they have the added distinction of not actually being there to fight in the first place. While opinion is naturally shaped by perspective, the informed observer will recognise that both sides are equally responsible for reprehensible acts commited in the name of a myriad of personal ideals; such are the terms of war.

    • Gregg says:

      02:22pm | 15/09/10

      ” At times, Faulkner’s anguish raised questions in my mind as to the true depth of commitment he carried in his soul for this Afghanistan war.

      Faulkner, however, after the spate of recent deaths, stayed strong. He argued that the war was “absolutely vital” for preventing the growth of terrorism and helping the Afghan people build their own security force.

      Faulkner cited his personal experience of talking to Australian troops on the ground in Afghanistan, who time and again insisted to him that the mission was crucial.

      There is no doubt Faulkner was relaying the true feelings on the troops. Morale is important, but it has never been the responsibility of a Digger to decide when he goes to war, or whether he should stay in that war once he gets there. It is the responsibility of the cabinet. “
      Depth of commitment questionable as is the ability of a government to rationally decide if they are to be swayed by the relaying of troops feelings.

      Of course the troops will say nothing else but they have a duty to be there for if they didn’t they as a group, a team would quickly be so fragmented the death toll would rise even more rapidly.

      People arguing the cause based on terrorism, the injust Taliban, their cowardly acts and loss of freedom etc. may want to ask themselves what part of the globe do Australian freedom fighters head to next?
      It is Vietnam on a smaller scale and always has been ever since it stopped being lets bring the 911 perpetrators to justice even though the bulk were Saudis and there was connection with European terrorist cells but we need to be seen to avenge the attack and became lets support this side of a civil war.
      The description of 22 soldiers charging single file at a machine gun does not diminish their bravery but could make one question tactics.
      It reminds me of those movies of ancient warfare where full blocks of fighting people would move against one another and also of tales of Japanese outflanking movements through what was thought to impenetrable terrain in PNG.
      PNG is a far cry from Afghan or Vietnam but it does make one think of brain Vs brawn and even with the greater superiority of force in VN there was eventually a withdrawal.
      Put more troops in Afghanistan do I hear?
      How many?, how long?, how many more deaths? and what happens after withdrawal!
      Let the yanks have their push to see if they’ll eventually get Osama or whoever else but seeing as they have telegraphed plans to pull out, the political brain better kick into gear re Australian military getting out too.

    • Ash says:

      02:33pm | 15/09/10

      Excluding the former Diggers, many comments about this story seem to be from those who are in transition from political dissidents, callow peaceniks or armchair strategists, to wanton composers of contemporary history!

    • Eric says:

      03:46pm | 15/09/10

      So which are you, Ash?

    • Richard says:

      04:26pm | 15/09/10

      No way, Afghanis deserve the basic human right of freedom from religious oppression just as much as everyone else does. We should continue to fight the good fight until Afghanistan has a stable and open government free of theologocrats and corruption. Why do left-wingers want to deprive the vast majority of regular Afghans the right to live in a progressive secular democracy?

    • BR says:

      04:56pm | 15/09/10

      I think it has to do with the makeup of your typical left winger; when the going gets tough, the lefties are happier gone.

    • Michael says:

      05:44pm | 15/09/10

      Probably because the vast majority of regular Afghanis don’t want it for themselves.  Actions speak louder than words in this context.  If they did want the Western Dream they would have done something about it for themselves by now.  As it is they prefer the wonders of Western economics as applied via the opium trade, tribal primitivism, and Islam to Western democracy and economics.

      That’s not left-wingerism.  It’s simply questioning why our blood and guts should get spilled for people who don’t want to clean up their own country.

    • Ash says:

      04:28pm | 15/09/10

      The subjective one.

    • thats war crimes u know says:

      10:22pm | 15/09/10

      staying silent and not speaking out against illegal immoral invasions based on lies that result in the murder of hundreds of thousand of innocent men women and children equates to supporting the war.

 

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