Here’s a fact you might hear repeated quite a bit over the coming months. The past 12 months were the hottest ever.

**Note: This is for January-April surface temperature. More at data.giss.nasa.gov

Data from NASA reportedly confirms the period from May 2009 to April 2010 was the hottest 12-month period in its records. This does rather challenge the view, which has been increasingly fashionable, that climate change is questionable or might not be happening at all.

The embarrassment of the leaked emails from the University of East Anglia and evidence of dodgy studies being cited by the UN’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change were hugely damaging to the standing of the scientific arguments that the world is heating up. But the scientists are back in the saddle, publishing a stream of evidence that climate change is still doing quantifiable damage to the planet. This week there have been some doozies.

The first is the temperature data, which confirmed a prediction in March that if April met expectations, the 12 months running up to it would be the hottest year on record.

As it turned out, April smashed the record. So we’ve just had the hottest April, the hottest January-April period, and the hottest 12 months on record. More here (.pdf).

When NASA published their preliminary findings on this they concluded there has been “no reduction in the global warming trend”, which they says is about a fifth of 1 degree Celsius per decade that began in the late 1970s.

Indeed the NASA’s global temperature nerds acknowledge the damage that has been done to the public perceptions of climate change. They have shifted to more frequent releases of data, despite some of the problems that it creates. They wrote: “Communicating the reality of climate change to the public is hampered by the large natural variability of weather and climate. Thus, for the sake of early recognition of ongoing climate change, it is important to strive for ways to bring out the climate signal as clearly as possible.” (Full paper is here in PDF form.)

This is in keeping with a bit of a global fightback by scientists against the growing public perception that climate change is, to borrow a phrase, absolute crap. The CSIRO and the Bureau of Meteorology, you may remember, issued an unusual joint statement in March too, saying scientific evidence pointed strongly to human influence in temperature rises and other environmental changes.

On top of these record temperatures there have been some studies which have shown the effects this warming can have on the natural environment.

Now fair enough, nobody outside of the keenest of herpetologists cares too much about the continued survival of all species of lizard. But a study published this week shows one fifth of lizard species could be extinct before the end of the century on current trends.

Basically because lizards sunbake on rocks to warm up and hide in shade to cool down, they’ve been spending more time hiding lately because it has been warmer. More hiding means less eating - and some populations of lizards have simply died out as a result. The authors warn there could be a range of knock-on effects in the food chain. Translation: a possible explosion of insects, and the deaths of other species which prey on the reptiles.

Africa’s largest lake, Tanganika, is now the warmest it has been, at least in the 1500 years that were studied by the team that published this study. The increase in temperature is killing the fish, which might be no big deal except that Lake Tanganyika is hundreds of kilometres long, bordered by four desperately poor countries and its fish are a food source for millions of people who live around it.

The last little story spotted recently was more folksy one about a weather station in upstate New York which, according to this report:

... is the rarest of the rare: a weather station that has never missed a day of temperature recording; never been moved; never seen its surroundings change; and never been tended by anyone but a short, continuous line of family and friends, using the same methods, for 114 years.

A summary of some of the other findings: average annual temperatures went up 2.63 degrees Fahrenheit. Temperatures were up in all seasons and there are more regular hot days over 89 degrees Fahrenheit.

There aren’t many devastating consequences. “As described in an earlier study in the International Journal of Climatology,” NASA’s the effect has been a sort of an intermittent false spring that may expose some early-flowering plants to frost damage. The earliest flowering native plants like hepatica, bloodroot and red-berried elder are likely to be most affected…”. Again, hardly likely to have people moving away from coastal areas or building heat-repelling domes for their cities.

But there was this paragraph, which is worth quoting at length.

The new study comes at a time when some skeptics have questioned the accuracy of long-term weather records, on the basis that many stations have been moved or that surroundings have changed, occasionally putting instruments nearer to buildings, parking lots or other possible heat sources that could skew readings upward. However, recent studies including one by scientists at the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration have found that such year-to-year inconsistencies cut both ways, and that instruments near developed spots actually more often read too cool rather than too hot. Researchers say every effort has been made to adjust for errors, and that errors one way or the other at individual stations basically cancel each other out, leaving the averages correct.

The pattern in all of these, aside from the evidence that the world is heating up regardless of leaked emails or dodgy Himalayan glacier claims, is they all address the obvious questions that sceptics would raise about each study.

The scientists working on issues related to climate change know they have a fight on their hands to re-establish their credibility. And it’s a fight they appear to be ready to have.

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345 comments

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    • Eric says:

      07:09am | 19/05/10

      It’s good if, indeed, the advocates of global warming theory have changed their tactics. Presenting factual arguments and debating the issues would be more convincing than the tactics of the past - suppressing opposition, mocking opponents, and making up dodgy reports.

      This is an important issue, and it should be treated seriously.

    • iansand says:

      09:06am | 19/05/10

      If only those who claim to be sceptics would change their tactics to presenting factual arguments and debating the issues.  And presenting ANY reports (dodgy or otherwise) would be a welcome development.

    • iansand says:

      09:06am | 19/05/10

      If only those who claim to be sceptics would change their tactics to presenting factual arguments and debating the issues.  And presenting ANY reports (dodgy or otherwise) would be a welcome development.

    • Eric says:

      10:08am | 19/05/10

      The skeptics have been presenting factual arguments all along. It’s the believers who have simply denied all of those, such as you do here.

    • iansand says:

      10:29am | 19/05/10

      Come on Eric.  Show us these “facts”.  A bit of a hint - saying other people are wrong doesn’t count as a “fact”.

    • persephone says:

      10:37am | 19/05/10

      Eric

      well, funny then that they can’t get them printed anywhere reputable.

      Care to run some of these factual arguments past us?

    • Howie says:

      01:10pm | 19/05/10

      Isn’t it interesting that two of the staunchest Labor defenders are also Global Warming defenders…...

    • whitenoise says:

      01:46pm | 19/05/10

      Labor trolls employed to surf blogs and push Labor policies, there is an army of them. It’s all part of Rudd’s spin machine.

    • Scotty Leach says:

      02:27pm | 19/05/10

      So it is cooler now than it was 131 years ago?  When did this phenomenon of global cooling start and did humans cause it?

    • iansand says:

      02:39pm | 19/05/10

      If I am a Labor defender (I’m not actually - I am just appalled at the direction that the Liberal Party for which I used to vote has taken in the last couple of decades and do not vote for or support either of the major parties), I present logical arguments and simple requests.  Unlike the irrational, uninformed mouth frothing of the other side.

    • persephone says:

      03:13pm | 19/05/10

      Yep, because we Labor types put our faith in evidence based policy.

      We can be bothered reading a wide range of information to find out what’s going on.

      And we have the intelligence to sort out fact from scare mongering.

    • S.L says:

      05:49pm | 19/05/10

      Persephone I am Labor to the bone but I think global warming is the biggest load of crap dished out on the public in 50 years or more!
      Nothing from the proponents can be substantiated outside of their own records.
      So NASA scientists support it. So what? I though they were about puting people in space? The Yanks aren’t the be all and end all of the science community.
      As to your claim to Eric that sceptics can’t get their stuff published anywhere reputable I have a question. What or who do you regard as reputable?

    • Steely Dan says:

      10:14am | 20/05/10

      @ SL

      “Nothing from the proponents can be substantiated outside of their own records.”
      How dare people do their own research! Do you have a problem with the data, the methodology, or the fact that the conclusion isn’t what you’d like?

    • Scott says:

      03:08pm | 20/05/10

      iansand the onus is not on the doubters to prove it isn’t happening, it is on the global warming theroists to prove it is, many of the doubters are not blinkered morons that most of the GW supporters try to make them out to be, they just want to be presented with factual evidence and research on the topic and not the garbage that has been spouted by many so called researchers and people like Gore.

    • S.L says:

      07:49pm | 20/05/10

      Steely Dan I said and you repeated “nothing from the proponents can be sustantiated outside their own records”. Where’s my problem with these people doing their own research? How do you come to the conclusion I’m against the research? If I have to spell it out (as you are obviously someone to whom I’m refering to) they can’t refer to any other source that agrees with them. There is a minus to every plus you guys can come up with. From sinking pacific islands to receeding glaciers it all has been proven to be a lot of B/S….............

    • Antshan says:

      08:22am | 21/05/10

      Has anyone checked climate history? I think those doom and gloom mongers ought to look at what was happening 200 to 300 years ago or maybe even longer. History does have a bad habit of repeating itself and I think that this may also apply to climate. It’s called the climatic cycle!

    • Steely Dan says:

      10:39am | 21/05/10

      @ SL

      “...they can’t refer to any other source that agrees with them.”
      How many other agencies have released surface temperature data to April 2010? Are you saying there’s another out there that contradicts it?

    • Hugo says:

      07:39am | 19/05/10

      Come on Global Warmening is so 2007.
      We were told we would be engulfed by drought too but all the dams around here have filled up. So what if its been the “hottest” year on record. How far does that impressive record go back? 100 years out of the earths 3 billion? Wow that is impressive - quick run for the hills we are all going to die!!
      Wake up to yourself Coglo. What happened to the polar bears iminent extinction? oh thats right they are actually thriving, and now you are throwing out lizards as the next victim?? What a joke lizards live in deserts and like it hot so no a slight increase in temperature is going to wipe them out. The moron scientist got how much tax payers money to produce that report? oh now i understand…..time for another grant!!
      why are people so stupid??

    • persephone says:

      09:09am | 19/05/10

      Yes, fancy believing that lizards only live in deserts.

      And that climate scientists only look at temperatures going back 100 years or so.

      Surely no one would be that stupid.

    • Caz says:

      09:16am | 19/05/10

      Hahahahahahah wow. Just wow.

      I think that is the most moronic post I have ever seen posted in the Punch. Now that is one helova feat there Hugo. High five!

      *Pats you on the head, gives you a beer, smacks you on the bum and pushes you away from the adults table*

    • Craig Lambie says:

      09:45am | 19/05/10

      @Hugo… you are obviously a skeptic, the worst kind at that.  You have an uneducated, narrow viewpoint and have obviously never read a study or really concentrated while reading an article, which I have to tell you is what most people consider “stupid”, on the other hand, scientists are looked at in society as intelligent, objective people that don’t bring emotion into their arguments just collect and report on the facts, hence over 1500 scientists suggesting that it there is a 90% chance that humans have something to do with the climate changing.  If you ever concentrated in school, you would know that they are using the statistical factor of 2 standard deviations, which suggests certainty in an uncertain world.
      As to your “run for the hills” have you read the news lately? Europe has stopped, earthquakes and major natural disasters are more frequent than ever.  Why I might ask are people so blind to the facts?

    • Mick In The Hills says:

      10:22am | 19/05/10

      Only 1500 scientists now, Craig?

      What happened to the other 2,500 Kev (“greatest moral challenge”) Rudd had consulted with as recently as last November?

    • hugo says:

      11:42am | 19/05/10

      @prosrstupidprone

      I’m so sorry you are right, the vast majority of lizards live in the antarctic and our records go back millions of years to the cavemen.

    • Macon Paine says:

      11:43am | 19/05/10

      @ Craig Lambie
      Whilst I appreciate where you are coming from your entire argument is in many cases the cause of said skepticism about this subject.
      Instead of “playing the ball” your busy “playing the man” so to speak. You dont need to resort to such tactics, just present the evidence or links to it instead of insinuating that Hugo is uneducated, has a narrow viewpoint, has a short attention span and is stupid. Infact that is an example of “poisoning the well”.

      And this statement “As to your “run for the hills” have you read the news lately? Europe has stopped, earthquakes and major natural disasters are more frequent than ever.  Why I might ask are people so blind to the facts? “
      Confusing cause and effect. This doesn’t prove your point.

    • persephone says:

      12:32pm | 19/05/10

      Hugo

      your statement was that ‘lizards live in deserts’. I live in an area which is far from a desert, is one of the highest rainfall areas in Australia, experiences severe frosts and occasionally snowfalls and we have lizards.

      Therefore lizards do not just live in deserts.

      ‘Our records go back millions of years to the cavemen’

      Oh dear. Please stop trying to reinforce the belief here that you’re - well - less than intelligent.

      Cavemen were not around millions of years ago.

      And climate scientists do not look at ‘records’, although they use them (where they exist) as supporting evidence.

      Human records about the climate (documentary evidence) goes back a couple of thousand years, but is rarely detailed or consistent enough for scientists.

      Instead, they use a range of measurements, such as ice cores, which provide evidence going back hundreds of thousands of years.

      Fossil records (of one kind or another) can also give reliable evidence about climatic conditions millions of years ago.

    • Garth Godsman says:

      03:18pm | 19/05/10

      @persephone - actually, if you tried thinking before writing, you’d have worked out that the point that Hugo was making was that the reliable instrumental temperature record only goes back 100 - 150 years.

      Obviously you are totally unaware about even this basic fact of climate science. Prior to the existence of reliable thermometers and organised collection of data you have to relie on trying to infer what the climate was like by using proxy data like tree rings.

      But Hugo is quite right - our records of direct measurement of temperatures take us back only to around the mid 19th Century.

    • Dan says:

      05:39pm | 19/05/10

      Per, with respect, the headline article that we’re commenting on here claims that we’ve just had the hottest year on record, which means the hottest in the past 131 years.  So Hugo’s apparently imbecilic rant about ‘100 years’ is considerably more accurate and relevant to the conversation than your apparently level-headed, wise and scientific disparagement of his comment.

    • persephone says:

      09:23pm | 19/05/10

      Fair ‘nough, Dan.

      Doesn’t make his comment any more intelligent, though….

    • f0urth says:

      04:22pm | 20/05/10

      @Persephone;
      Hilariously though, it does make yours look more so…

    • mike says:

      09:21am | 21/05/10

      lmao… hugo hugo hugo.. Stupidity is about not evolving your consciousness when FACTS are introduced. And millions of yrs ago there were no cave men?..  Where do you get your knowledge, not the Simpsons?! They are scientists and understand reality fairly well.  Just sit in a closed box for awile, no coal burning or anything, you shall begin to warm, soon carbon dioxide will build up, slowly at first, then rapidly you will become uncomfortable and then need to escape the box. Trouble is the box is Earth!. Where going now?

    • Bill says:

      12:34pm | 21/05/10

      The world is overcrowded with animals of the homo Sapiens species. Look up, is there a roof above you, what was right there where you sit 200 years ago? Anthropomorphism (spelling) you are soaking in it, its not just a thing in the atmosphere.
      But will stupid taxes and inane arguement stop it ?
      We live on a planet that travels in an orbit at about 30km/sec and rotates at about 1600 kmh. every day you travel around 9000 -12000 km (depending on latitude) through space, and every year you travel 950 million km around the sun (according to my google search). Despite the illusion of everything being still, you are always in motion, travelling at least 30km a second. You have no way over ever influencing the motion or the part of space that we move into. Our star the sun will wax and wane over time and the speed of rotation has and will also change. Get over it, stop making inane arguement to justify huge science granrts, and start using your science talents to ease the suffering and humanely reduce population. If the population of the planet, including “the West” ,is reduced, the demand for energy will also reduce and the population will have access to more resources.

    • iansand says:

      08:19am | 19/05/10

      The other worrying thing is that the 11 year rolling period so beloved by Senator Fielding and other sceptics has now moved past that single blip in the late 90s, so the statistics will now show warming over the magic 11 year period.

    • Fredd says:

      08:56am | 19/05/10

      Steve Fielding’s lack-of-understanding-of-science precludes him from being considered a serious appraiser of such science.

      The modelling might include “warming” scenarios that result in previously arid areas being farmable, such as areas around Siberia.

    • Steely Dan says:

      10:41am | 19/05/10

      @iansand

      How can Senator Fielding trust any scientist who can show him a graph that dates the earth as older than 10,000 years old?

    • Bill says:

      12:17pm | 19/05/10

      Fielding is a engineer - which is basically applied science and Physics in the real world. Most the people who rabbit on about global warming have at best studied arts or humanities. Who would have a better grasp of the situation?
      The idea that warm blooded animals die from warmth is about as sensible as plants don’t like more c02 plant food.

    • persephone says:

      12:35pm | 19/05/10

      Bill

      load of tosh. Most climate scientists now come from fields such as physics.

      It is interesting, however, that there does seem to be a correlation between denialism and engineering.

    • iansand says:

      12:41pm | 19/05/10

      When was climatology a subject offered in an Arts degree?  The people rabbiting on about global warming are climatologists.

    • Steely Dan says:

      01:12pm | 19/05/10

      @ Bill

      “The idea that warm blooded animals die from warmth is about as sensible as plants don’t like more c02 plant food.”

      ‘Warm-blooded’ does not mean that we thrive the more heat we are exposed to.  It means we can regulate our body temperature to some degree.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      01:53pm | 19/05/10

      @Bill- warm blooded animals can die from warmth-it’s called hyperthermia

    • Frank says:

      02:21pm | 19/05/10

      Engineering is the application of scientific and mathematical principles. You don’t need to understand any underlying science and still be a good engineer. I happen to be qualified in both, physics and engineering, and I look at and interpret raw data rather than relying on ‘reports’ only. The data tell me that there is a strong correlation between man made activity and global warming. However, a ‘strong correlation’, even in statistical terms in not necessarily proof of cause and effect. But it stands to reason that the amount of carbon we released into the atmosphere over the last 150 years, carbon that fossilized over million of years, taking carbon out of the atmosphere then, is having an effect now. Sure, we can have a debate if it is worthwhile doing something about it, and if so, in what manner.

    • Gary Cox says:

      08:25am | 19/05/10

      The argument is whether or not humans are causing climate change, not whether or not its happening. The climate is always changing and has always done so.

    • Dave Sag says:

      09:10am | 19/05/10

      Gary, be serious.  The science that underpins the natural greenhouse effect, and by extension the enhanced greenhouse that is caused by human activity (what! burning all that coal and oil has consequences! shock me.) is so simple and so well understood that it can be taught to primary school kids.  See for example http//www.coolenation.com

      Unfortunately debating climate deniers is like debating creationists.  No amount of facts will get in the way of their ridiculous beliefs.

      Find me one single peer reviewed scientific paper that disputes that increasing GHG levels is heating the planet.  Just one.

    • persephone says:

      09:11am | 19/05/10

      Gary

      and when it has changed, in the past, it has been relatively easy to determine why.

      None of those ‘traditional’ reasons explain what’s happening now, so scientists naturally have had to look at what else has changed.

      Apparently, there’s been a rather massive increase in human activity in the period leading to the latest climate change.

    • John A Neve says:

      09:55am | 19/05/10

      Gary,

      I am not sure the debate has ever been about “whether or not humans are causing climate change”. I think we all accept “the climate is always changing”.

      Rather the debate is whether humans are contributing to climate change and possibly accelerating the process.

      I cannot believe that many more people and many less trees don’t have some adverse impact on the environment. Then throw in the vast amounts of fossil fuel we are burning, while denying any human impact borders of madnes.

    • Tim says:

      10:00am | 19/05/10

      Yeah yeah,
      two years ago it was “There is no evidence that Climate change is real” and now its “There is no evidence that we are causing climate change”.

      What’s the argument going to be next year that will allow you to absolve yourself of any responsibility and allow you to rationalise not doing anything?

    • Joan says:

      12:55pm | 19/05/10

      It`s all China`s fault-  the temperature has been rising with China`s hot pot economic rise. Stop buying made in China and selling rescources to China. Will the temperature fall?

    • Frank says:

      01:45pm | 19/05/10

      No, the argument should be the other way round, or, how are we preparing for climate change. Yes, the climate has always changed, and more so on a large time scale than on a short one. Last time we underwent a significant climate change (e.g ice age) , there were only a few of us, no cities, no agriculture, no counties and no political jurisdictions. The planet coped well with it. But now we are 6 billion people and we got to this mainly because over the last 10,000 years the climate was relatively benign and stable which allowed agriculture, mass food production, ability for people to stay put, built cities, power bases, countries and so on. If our basis for mass food production is severely impacted by either climate heating or cooling, man made or not, then we have huge challenges, and that debate is not even taking place.

    • John says:

      03:56pm | 19/05/10

      @ Frank
      You’re nuts. “the climate is stable” is it? Dont suppose you know that North Africa ws the bread basket of rome do you. when the region got hot (with in a 300 year period) Rome was toast. The dark ages got real cold - famin and plague. Medieval warming - the renaisance. Little ice age - more famin and plague - Hell, the Themes froze over! Doesnt seem stable to me! As for mass food production - Sure, lets let the UN legislate aid for global warming conformance programes in Africa and see where enforced production of bio-fuel crops gets thepeople in their food shortage… again, narrow minded fingers messing up too many pies!

    • Myles says:

      12:51am | 20/05/10

      Persephone

      Please tell me the reason for the increased levels of CO2 in the 1400’s, raising temperatures such that the Vikings were able to inhabit Greenland since the reason is easily determined.

    • persephone says:

      09:24am | 20/05/10

      Myles

      Love to, except the Medieval warming period didn’t exist.

      Remember, when we’re talking climate change, we’re talking a rise in global temperatures. Within those perameters, some places can be cooler than normal and others can be hotter; if the hotter places out number the cooler, then the global temperature is higher.

      Judged by those criteria, the Medieval Warming period was simply a climatic anomaly, like the cold winters Europe has been experiencing - it was a fairly local event, not global, and its effects weren’t felt outside of a particular geographica area.

      So, since CO2 affects the atmosphere, and atmospheric changes are global, not local, it isn’t strange that CO2 levels don’t correlate.

      Furthermore, there’s little evidence to show that these areas suddenly got warmer. What did happen was that they cooled.

      Again, this was largely a local event.

      Oh, and - though that period was warmer in Europe than the years that followed - it wasn’t as hot as it is now/

    • Michael K says:

      08:55am | 19/05/10

      Any climate-change sceptic worth their salt will not doubt the fact that the Earh is warming; undoubtedly, it certainly is. The major bone of contention for most sceptics is whether humans and industrial activity are contributing to or are causing global warming. This is a question that is yet to receive a definitive answer, unlike the question of whether Earth’s climate is warming (although I wouldn’t pay too much attention to long-term projections).

    • persephone says:

      10:04am | 19/05/10

      Well, the scientists - the people who look at climate for a living, every hour of their working life - are as sure as they ever are about anything (scientists being trained sceptics) that climate change is caused by humans.

      That the present changes in climate are caused by man is as accepted by scientists as the theory of evolution.

    • Hamish says:

      10:48am | 19/05/10

      Perse,

      Some scientists are very sure. Others are not. The climate changes naturally. I’m yet to see any convincing evidence that a) rates of temperature rise we are experiencing now are unprecedented (indeed I’m not too sure about the temp record itself), b) our carbon dioxide emissions have much to do with it or c) current levels of temperature increase are unmanageable.

      The fact is that the climate system is extremely complex. I doubt we have anywhere near the knowledge necessary to categorically conclude we contribute to global warming (or not).

      My position is that we probably need to monitor the situation for at least another 10 or so years before we make any firm conclusions. Doing anything before that would be making grossly uninformed decisions.

    • Saint says:

      10:57am | 19/05/10

      @persephone - don’t be so juvenile. “The scientists” are not all in agreement that humans cause climate change and for every scientist you find who does, I’ll present one who doesn’t.

      There are now literally thousands of scientists who have expressed their very serious doubts about the so called agreed science and we are finally having a debate with some balance in it.

      So what you are saying is simply not true (albeit one of the favourite slogans of climate alarmists).

      The real issue is that the alarmists are proposing solutions that will be ruinous to economies and destroy hundreds of thousands of jobs without making a scintilla of difference to the climate.

      The “skeptics” would like to see an honest and grown up debate about what is really going and investment in programs to tackle real environmental issues that are affecting us right now that we can actually make a difference around.

      We object to having our way of lives destroyed by people who either have an anti-human, anti-capitalist agenda to push or who stand to make millions, if not billions, of dollars from carbon trading.

    • iansand says:

      11:28am | 19/05/10

      Present away, Saint.  Although could you restrict yourself to climatologists?

    • Tim says:

      11:51am | 19/05/10

      Saint,
      your one scientist who believes to one scientist who doesn’t argument is simply wrong.
      Its more likely to be 100 scientists who think human caused global warming is real to 1 who doesn’t.
      The overwhelming majority think it is real.

    • persephone says:

      12:00pm | 19/05/10

      Saint

      that your claim that there is ‘two to one against’ is untrue is borne out by the fact that, when the media wants to interview a climate change denying scientist for ‘balance’ they turn to the same people again and again.

      Meanwhile, there are a plethora of scientists in support that they can choose from.

      Numerous surveys of scientists about their views on climate change have demonstrated time and time again that the majority believe it is happening and that it is most likely caused by humans.

      Hamish

      the question is not whether it’s unprecedented, or indeed, whether it’s warmer now (or likely to be warmer in the future) than other periods of history.

      The concern is that it hasn’t been this hot since human civilisation began.

      So, yes, the world may have changed temperature more quickly in the past, and it may have been hotter.

      But it didn’t then have humans in such numbers, inhabiting most of the globe, and that’s the problem.

      Even a small change in climate will have dramatic effects (is having dramatic effects!) on how we live - and indeed, whether we will live.

      Changes in rainfall will impact on food production. Rises in sea levels - even very slight ones - will cause massive dispersals of presently settled communities. Increased natural disasters will impact on people’s lives and undermine their ability to cope.

      There are are potential positives as well, but if we don’t act soon, we’ll either miss these opportunities or make them more expensive.

      And sorry, if we’re to sit around and wait until every individual society is convinced about the evidence backing every single decision governments make, no decision will ever be made.

      Very few decisions governments - or indeed, individuals - make are backed up by evidence which shows that they are 100% justifiable. There’s always pros and cons.

      (A little off topic, but there are forms of brain damage where the patient can only make decisions by using facts alone. Apparently it can take them hours to make simple decisions - such as when to schedule their dental appointment - because they have to go through every single argument for and against before they can decide. Mostly, they give up, because they can only rarely find a situation where any decision is totally supported by the evidence).

    • Saint says:

      01:02pm | 19/05/10

      Persephone, you can’t be serious! Firstly I didn’t say two to one but that’s not the point. Are you seriously suggesting that the fact the media turns to the same “skeptic” spokespeople for comment every time they need comment is evidence there are only a few of them? Surely not!

      The media also turn to the same alarmists every time. They do this because certain people from both sides of the debate are accessible, willing to provide comment and in the case of TV, make good telly.

      Iansand, happy to oblige. The list I have with references to all the peer reviewed articles they have written is substantial though. Would need to email it to you or snail mail even.

      Doubt you would read it though so why bother?

    • Hamish says:

      01:14pm | 19/05/10

      Perse,

      There is quite a lot of debate about whether or not it has been hotter in previous periods of civilisation. For instance, there is significant debate about the MWP and the RWP. Most of these debates centre around whether it was only hotter in the northern hemisphere, which as far as I’m concerned is a bit of a non-issue considering the northern hemisphere is where civilisation was.

      Thanks for the lesson in the psychology of decision making. My point is that even based on IPCC estimates, it’s not as if we have to make these decisions now. I would like to see more maturity in this debate. There is no point attempting a very costly restructuring of our power generation (which will probably cost more money than dealing with the effects of what are very minor climate changes) until we have a much better understanding of what is an extremely complex system.

      It’s largely irrelevant anyway as there wil be no movement for global agreements on this issue until we see far more convincing evidence of the effects of climate change. At the moment we basically have a situation where professional climate change pushers who are not necessarily very well qualified (e.g.  Al Gore, Tim Flannery, Clive Hamilton) have cried wolf way too many times.

    • Steely Dan says:

      01:23pm | 19/05/10

      I can present a list of thousands of ‘scientists’ who think that the earth is 4,500 years old, and that dinosaur fossils are a trick being played on us by Satan.

      Does that mean that mainstream geology and biology have got it all wrong?  Not at all.  It illustrates that not all scientists are equal.  Have a look in relevant journals on climate change to see where the scientific consensus is.  Asking engineers, dermatologists or podiatrists to tell us what’s happening to the climate is simply a waste of time - just as asking a climatologist whether my new running shoes will flare up my achilles tendonitis is a waste of time.

    • neil says:

      02:43pm | 19/05/10

      persephone says:
      That the present changes in climate are caused by man is as accepted by scientists as the theory of evolution.

      That is exactly what makes the consensus argument so weak, just because a lot of people believe it does not make it true. In Darwin’s time the scientific consensus was to believe the Bible. Darwin was ostracised for his ideas and the scientific community campaigned to discredit him just like Galileo before him.

      If consensus determines truth then the universe must revolve around the sun and God created it all 6000 years ago because that was the consensus before single individuals challenged it.

      But the reality is the AGW consensus is a myth perpetuated by people whose reputations and livelihoods depend on it. The scientific community as a whole is pretty 50:50 on the subject.

    • Steely Dan says:

      04:09pm | 19/05/10

      @ neil

      “That is exactly what makes the consensus argument so weak, just because a lot of people believe it does not make it true. In Darwin’s time the scientific consensus was to believe the Bible.”
      Well, not quite, but it was probably the consensus of the western world in general.  The scientific consensus is the consensus for a reason - because the majority of scientists in the relevant fields all agree that it’s happening.  That doesn’t mean that it’s automatically correct, but it can’t be ignored.  You’re right that Darwin’s theory went against the consensus - and then Darwin’s work changed the consensus.  That’s what happens when science works.  Nothing is absolutely certain in science, but that doesn’t give us licence to ignore the consensus simply because the consensus *might* change in the future.  The time to reject the global warming theory (as with evolutionary theory) is when credible evidence contradicts it.
      I await the denialists’ Darwin.

    • Dan says:

      05:55pm | 19/05/10

      Steely, if you’re going to burn straw men, maybe you could at least make them more convincing.  I know it’s only a small detail, but your ‘list of scientists’ would be extremely short and probably nonexistent.  Obviously you’re referring to Creationists - who believe the Earth is between 6,000 and 10,000 years old (not 4,500), and who claim that the dinosaur fossils, together with most fossils, are from animals that were killed in a worldwide flood around 4,500 years ago.  You can ridicule the position all you like - most people do until they read some of the supporting literature, at which point they’re forced to take it more seriously.

    • Simonious says:

      06:10pm | 19/05/10

      31, 000 scientist in America are against it.  http://www.petitionproject.org/

      What get me is the fact that people are so damn sure that man has caused this. There is a big pile of evidence on the other side that the atmosphere is not warming but oceans are and as we are 2/3 covered with water the knock on effect is that the atmosphere is heating. Science is contributing this to Geothermal activity under our oceans and if you look at all the Volcanoes erupting and earthquakes happening around the Ring of Fire lately they just might go a long way to supporting this theory. You “man madists” choose to ignore anything other than the fact that Global warming is man made. Because if science proves that in fact GW is not man made but a natural phenomenon then ETS and carbon trading goes out the window with bllions of dollars in lost opportunity for carbon trading companies. Global warming is real. The evidence speaks for itself but it is the cause we want debated. What we should be doing is spending our money on research so our species can learn to survive extreme heat and the next Ice age because if you look at some evidence it shows that this warming is just the beggining of a very long period of freezing cold.

    • Steely Dan says:

      10:41am | 20/05/10

      @ Dan
      “Steely, if you’re going to burn straw men, maybe you could at least make them more convincing.”
      How is that a straw man? I am using the analogy of the ‘creation science’ to show people like Simonious why a petition isn’t impressive.

      “You can ridicule the position all you like - most people do until they read some of the supporting literature, at which point they’re forced to take it more seriously.”
      Are you still talking about creationists?  I’ve read a lot of creationist literature, Dan.  It’s hilarious (Kent Hovind’s doctoral thesis is a favourite).

    • wayne mead says:

      08:58am | 19/05/10

      I simply don’t believe this data. Whether the planet is warming or not, I find it incredibly hard to believe that the world as a whole had the hottest year on record when we know that the northern hemisphere had the coldest winter on record..

    • iansand says:

      10:08am | 19/05/10

      Which means that the rest of the world must have been pretty hot.  The NOAA charts showed a cool band over Europe and eastern (not western) North America.  Everywhere else in the world was well above average.  Unfortunately news footage of hot places is not as spectacular as footage from cold places, so we did not see it.

    • wayne mead says:

      11:23am | 19/05/10

      iansand, the rest of the world being pretty hot might have got global temperatures back to normal on average, but half the world at its coldest for half the year and the whole world at its hottest for the full year ? Give me a break.

    • wayne mead says:

      12:23pm | 19/05/10

      Oh, by the way, China and India probably should be included under “everywhere else in the world” ,as they are in Asia. They were freezing at the same time.

    • persephone says:

      12:48pm | 19/05/10

      Bzzt.

      No, the northern hemisphere did not have the coldest winter on record - indeed, most reports describe it as the coldest ‘for decades’.

      Some parts of the northern hemisphere were very cold, but countries like Italy, Northern Africa, and Canada (remember there was a question as to whether the Winter Olympics would be able to go ahead?) were far hotter than normal (by 5 to 10 degrees).

      See

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/blog/2010/jan/06/cold-snap-climate-sceptics

      You also ignore the fact that ‘global warming’ does not mean everywhere gets hotter (which is part of the reason scientists prefer the term ‘climate change’ because people get so easily confused).

    • wayne mead says:

      01:58pm | 19/05/10

      persephone, there were records set, both for temperature and snowfall. Nevertheless, I accept that in many affected areas it was the coldest for decades rather than a record.

      No, I am not ignoring the meaning of “global warming”. As I said, my comment is specifically on this report, not on the possibility that the globe is warming, nor even on the possibility that such warming is man made.

      Climategate, etc have shown the amount of dishonesty and self interest driving this debate. Lies and exagerations are unacceptable to me even when they are used to support a position which might be a correct position.

      I simply do not believe that the past year was the warmest on record. It was not just “some parts” of the northern hemisphere that were affected by the cold. China, India, Russia, Europe and North America

    • persephone says:

      08:02pm | 19/05/10

      Wayne

      climategate has been shown to be a shonk - independent reports found that there was no deception whatsoever.

      It’s sad that your mind is so closed to the subject that you dispute data provided by scientific institutions, particularly ones with the kind of reputation for solid data such as NASA.

      I’m afraid that all that demonstrates is not sceptism but a refusal to accept anything which challenges your own mindset - you prefer to believe in conspiracies rather than challenging some of your own core beliefs.

      You’re arguing from a position of faith, not science - which means you can’ t be argued with at all.

    • Wayne1966 says:

      09:00am | 19/05/10

      NASA has been keeping records for 131 years ? Interesting…..

    • Steely Dan says:

      10:24am | 19/05/10

      Grow up, Wayne1966.

      Records have been kept for 131 years.  NASA uses the data.  No conspiracy theory required.

    • wayne1966 says:

      12:36pm | 19/05/10

      “Data from NASA reportedly confirms the period from May 2009 to April 2010 was the hottest 12-month period in its records.”

      The article attempts to give credence to the data by stating that the data comes from NASA’s records. This is simply factually incorrect whether you like it or not.

    • Steely Dan says:

      12:57pm | 19/05/10

      @ Wayne1966

      Anyone who thinks that NASA was collecting the data 131 years ago would not have the capacity to read the article.  This looks like you’re desperately searching for conspiracy, Wayne.

    • Old Clive says:

      09:16am | 19/05/10

      Of course we humans are helping the climate to change, we have our manmade acid rain, we have our smog, we have our dams and we have algae, we have our rubbish dumps, but in spite of all of this the biggest changes in climate are those that have always been with us since the beginning of time and the scientists are still working on that one. I can help them a little bit, the missing links in the human race are the ones that think that man is tottaly resposible for climate change.

    • persephone says:

      10:12am | 19/05/10

      Well, funny, Old Clive, but none of the ‘usual suspects’ in climate change seem to have been very active in the period we’re looking at.

      If you look at one of the ‘usual suspects’ in global warming - sun activity - we should actually be experiencing a decline in temperatures.

    • Dale of CV says:

      09:12am | 21/05/10

      Persephone, The sun really IS the main culprit in global warming, and there is NO way the earth should be getting cooler if you go by solar activity. The sun will get hotter every single day from now until the time it expands into a red giant engulfing the earth and possibly even mars in the process. It will not get cooler due to solar activity until after the sun colapses after going supernova.

    • Pete from Sydney says:

      09:20am | 19/05/10

      Hey can you forward this to Andrew Bolt, who knows it may open his eyes slightly….perhaps not, he’d have to acknowledge someone else’s opinion

    • acotrel says:

      09:30am | 19/05/10

      You don’t get more irresponsible than when you treat a complex issue like global warming and the ETS in idiotic terms such as ‘a great big new tax on everything’! Tony Abbott will pay for his sins!

    • Dom says:

      09:45am | 19/05/10

      Totally right there Gary Cox!

      It’s amazing how a report like this can boast that it understands this planet in such detail.

      Now it’s turned to actual data it seems to be who can misinterpret to suit their needs best.

      Humans causing climate change will always be a belief system!

    • persephone says:

      10:16am | 19/05/10

      If by a ‘belief system’, you mean that people maintain their beliefs despite the evidence, then what you’re saying is more applicable to ‘climate change deniers’.

      The evidence supporting climate change is massive, multi disciplinary and solid, yet those who deny it’s happening seize on trivial details and magnify them out of all proportion.

    • Henry says:

      01:23pm | 19/05/10

      Persephone - no one denies climate changes.  Thus there is no such thing as a climate change denier.

      Many people however are very very very skeptical about AGW - with good reason!!!

      So don’t try and pull a fast one with the ‘Denier’ BS.  The issue is AGW NOT Climate Change.

      Tell us why AGW is ‘beyond doubt’?  You can’t?  Oh well.

    • Steely Dan says:

      01:49pm | 19/05/10

      @ Henry

      “no one denies climate changes.  Thus there is no such thing as a climate change denier.”
      Very incorrect, unfortunately. They’re out there.

      “Tell us why AGW is ‘beyond doubt’?  You can’t?”
      Nothing is ‘beyond doubt’ in science, Henry. That’s Philosophy of Science 101. Science works on probability, and the best climatologists estimate the probability of AGW at 90%.

    • persephone says:

      03:18pm | 19/05/10

      No, Henry, because to say anything is ‘beyond doubt’ is unscientific.

      But if we’re supposed to wait until something is 100% proven before we act, then nothing will ever happen full stop.

      I can’t prove, for example, that I will be alive tomorrow, with 100% accuracy. Yet strangely, I still plan and act as if I will be around a long time yet - because it is a reasonable assumption for me to make, based on the evidence I have.

    • ChrisR1 says:

      05:54pm | 19/05/10

      I’ll preface this by saying I’m science trained (Hons in Chem), haven’t worked in ‘science’ in years but have read quite widely on AGW arguments both for and against and remain something of an agnostic on the whole issue.

      I believe we should take action to address known issues - environmental degredation and non-renewable resource depletion. Anyway….

      I do need to point out Steely Dan, that you do realise that 90% certainty falls below the usual 95% confidence limit employed in scientific statistical analysis for the determination of statistical significance?

      If I had used p90 as the threshold for significance in relation to correlation data in my thesis I would have copped an academic thrashing….. and what seems to be overlooked here is correlation does not mean causation.

    • Steely Dan says:

      11:13am | 20/05/10

      @ ChrisR1

      “I do need to point out Steely Dan, that you do realise that 90% certainty falls below the usual 95% confidence limit employed in scientific statistical analysis for the determination of statistical significance?”
      Correct me if I’m wrong here, but doesn’t the 95% limit apply to the correlation, not the degree of certainty of the causation? Also, I don’t see anything dishonest about the 90% claim, the IPCC is not claiming virtual certainty.  A 90% certainty of climate change is definitely something that needs to be communicated to public policy makers.

      “...and what seems to be overlooked here is correlation does not mean causation.”
      It’s not being overlooked at all. Isn’t this what we’re talking about?

    • B says:

      08:02pm | 20/05/10

      @persephone
      Lol! this coming from someone who calls Sceptics “climate change deniers”  I remember that being applied all through Religious life in the last 1000 years.

      So if your looking for a faith, look no farther than your beloved “Church of Climatology”.

      Religion has its basis in Myth, same as AGW.

    • ChrisR1 says:

      01:10pm | 21/05/10

      @Steely Dan

      “Correct me if I’m wrong here, but doesn’t the 95% limit apply to the correlation, not the degree of certainty of the causation?”

      From memory it can apply to all sorts of statistical analysis, be it the fit of a linear regression to a data set (correlation) or to the statisitical probability of an outcome based on a set of statistical data.

      My reading of the IPCC claim of 90% certainty is that this is the expression of a confidence interval - i.e that they are 90% certain that the null hypothesis (that any warming is NOT due to human activity) is not true.

      This in itself is not proof of AGW, it is a statement of the likelihood, and 90% is not the usual level that is chosen to demonstrate the certainty of a link between observations - it would be regarded as pretty generous. To someone who doesn’t understand what ‘confidence’ means from a statistical point of view it makes an occurrence seem highly likely though (I mean if you had a 90% chance of a tossed coin being heads then you can be pretty sure of what you’ll get - but this is not the same as a 90% confidence).

      If I have understood the statement incorrectly I’m happy to admit I’m wrong, but this is my interpretation.

      I was simply trying to say that a 90% probablity is very different to having proof that AGW is absolutely ‘real’.

    • Steely Dan says:

      02:34pm | 21/05/10

      @ ChrisR1

      Not sure I explained myself properly, this might be a hard one to tease out in this sort of forum.

      My suggestion is that you could have a situation where the 95% threshold is met for the correlation (ie. temperature vs ghg emissions), but not for the causation.  So, from a statistical point of view the data meets the standard.  You could have a situation where you exceed the 95% confidence level in comparison between ice cream sales and shark attacks, but assert an extremely low (under 1%) chance that one causes the other.

    • Don Clark says:

      09:47am | 19/05/10

      The evidence for man-made CO2 as a major cause has been firm for a good many years, and beyond doubt for most of the last decade. The steady gathering of evidence, has been progressively documented by the IPCC over 20 years with more and more detail, backed by the work of a great many responsible, apolitical agencies.

      Simply claiming it isn’t so is no help at all.  Big business, starting in the US and driven purely by self-interest,  has busily peddled a range of nonsense, misinformation and non-science against the evidence for man-made warming. Much of this dross has been circulated and repeated endlessly over the past year in various on-line forums by people who’ve taken little if any time to check their facts, and no time at all to even skim through just the current IPCC reports, let alone the full range of reports from 1990 onwards. Pity. Just the briefest look makes for a sobering read.

      It’s a pity some sloppily worded emails from the CRU and a small number of blunders in the IPCC Report IV made such a distraction, though in the end they’ve turned out to be neither smoking guns nor, in reality, of any importance. Except on the upside: the IPCC and the East Anglia CRU -and others - will redouble their efforts at clarity and accuracy.

      The Fifth IPCC assessment reports will appear from late 2013 through to late 2014. Meanwhile, you can expect to see more evidence of man-made, CO2-etc driven warming as it comes to hand from Agencies like NASA, CSIRO, and the CRU.  The window to address the problem is stll open to us, though it is starting to close. We may have a decade in hand, maybe not.  Sooner or later we will have an ETS. Whoever is running our courntry.

      Before you trot out the usual tosh and rants about plant food, fake emails, cycles, commie plot, and the like, put aside a few minutes at your leisure to have a look around here http://www.ipcc.ch/index.htm. Please. It’s important to get this right - its not a matter of politics.

    • Saskia says:

      01:14pm | 19/05/10

      Beyond doubt eh?  You are hilarious Don Clark.

      Its cobblers.  Its over.  Move on like the rest of the world and do something to actually help the planet.

      Luckily the world averted a scam of epic proportions.  Carbon Credit trading by Goldman Sachs and Al Gores companies would have made Wall Street look like Mother Teresa.

    • Don Clark says:

      01:50pm | 19/05/10

      Translation: Can’t check, won’t check.  Fine, your loss.

      The references are there for others to check, as and when they wish. Saskkia won’t stop them, and there will be more evidence as time goes by.

      We’ll see what pans out as the US Congress gets going on its latest ETS cap n trade scheme, under debate in the Senate now..

      We will have an ETS here in the end, whatever party is in government. About 60% of us want one now, whether we accept the reality of man-made warming or not.

    • Henry says:

      02:09pm | 19/05/10

      “We will have an ETS here in the end, whatever party is in government. About 60% of us want one now, whether we accept the reality of man-made warming or not”

      The above is simply madness.  Chill out and give it up.  No one wants it, AGW is not real and even if it was an ETS would do sweet jack all except make Wall St traders wealthy, oh and Al Gore.

      Maybe you need to follow the money trail to face the reality of this scam.

    • B says:

      08:11pm | 20/05/10

      @ Don Clark says

      Your quoting IPCC reports and web pages?  Noone believes them anymore.  Find something not done by:
      IPCC or CSIRO or AUST government, but an independent body and maybe I will read it.

    • Comedian says:

      09:49am | 19/05/10

      Global warming is a myth. For every study that claims it’s true there is another 10 studies that say no, it’s all bullsh*t..

      GW is nothing more than a new and improved version of the Y2K bug. Y2K scare campaign and money making machine had to end January 1st 2000 but GW can go on for ever and ever, introducing new taxes and when the world doesn’t melt as they claim (which it won’t) they will turn and say its because of the taxes and measures we put in place and if we remove them the world will over heat again… Brilliant scam

    • iansand says:

      10:12am | 19/05/10

      Please provide a link to a study that confirms it is “bullsh*t”.  Just one.  You don’t have to give links the overwhelming preponderance that you assert.

      Happy hunting, because you will be having a long and futile search.

    • persephone says:

      10:24am | 19/05/10

      1. Firstly, you’re wrong. It’s not even the other way around; to my knowledge, there are only a handful of articles (compared with tens of thousands the other way) in reputable, peer reveiwed scientific journals that cast even the shadow of a doubt on the science.

      2. The Y2K bug is a perfect example. A problem was identified and action was taken to minimise its effects. As a result, there were very few.

      If no action had been taken, however, dire consequences would have followed.

      IT types have proven this; many did not ‘treat’ some computers for the bug, so that they could judge its effects, which were exactly what had been predicted.

      Do a google on ‘was the Y2K bug real?’ and you’ll get a massive number of expert articles explaining why it was.

      Apparently, even despite the preventative measures, there are still problems created by the Y2K bug washing through the system today.

    • gil says:

      12:52pm | 19/05/10

      all my life the cry babys have been telling us the world is about to end . when i was a teenager we were all going to die in a nuclear mushroom cloud then aids was going to wipe us all out then y2k was the end of it then sars etc etc . the cry babys have waffling on about gw for quite a few years now and guess what nothing has happened

    • Don Clark says:

      02:52pm | 19/05/10

      We didn’t wish to die *flash* under a mushroom cloud or more slowly from all the other crap that such stuff comes with. Even today, we all still carry more radioactive crap than before it all started.

      So from the 50s through the 70s and on into the 90s we got busy, talked, wrote, researched, visited, occasionally protested, and always voted.

      We got nuclear testing in the air pretty well stopped in the early 60s. We got nuclear testing underground and underwater stopped - almost everywhere. We got the start of nuclear non-proliferation in the late 60s. Eventually from the 1990s we got a sensible start on nuclear disarmament, too - still progressing. It took a lot of work.  Before your time, perhaps. But your kids are carrying or will carry less radioactive crap than they would have if we’d have done nothing.

      For Y2K we had plenty of warning and after plenty of work on software and kit fit, when it came it was a tiny ripple, instead of a tsunami. Where I worked then, in a business where IT was the heart and soul of what we did, we did scads of remedial work first and IIRC on the day, still had two little blips - in unimportant little nooks.  Good job, well done.

      By the way, we did the same for DDT, and the same for CFCs, the Ozone layer and skin cancer.

      These are big changes on really big things. They take a lot of people to work for a long time, in good faith, to fix. It can be done.

      So please, try raising points you know something about, instead of things you know little or nothing about.

    • persephone says:

      03:21pm | 19/05/10

      gil

      except the hottest temperatures in the last 130 years, exactly as predicted.

      Oh, and a massive increase in the number of extreme climatic events, exactly as predicted.

    • Your name:J2H says:

      03:48pm | 21/05/10

      The Y2K bug is a great example of the current situation because a real problem was identified and some small number of people (and the media) went into hysterics and claimed it would be the end of everything, while other people like yourself ignored all facts to the contrary to pretend their wasn’t a problem claiming it a money making conspiracy. 

      However most sensible people treated it with the response it required, spent the money to correct the issue before it became a big problem and surprise suprise it worked (and if you knew anything at all about computer programming you wouldn’t doubt that it would have been an issue if it wasn’t fixed).

      Basically the point is you need to Ignore the Doomsayers and the Deniers in equal measure and put the effort into fixing the problem that HAS already been identified.

      And to clarify the difference between a skeptic and a denier, a skeptic needs to be informed on the issue and keep an open mind to evidence that is contrary to their own evidence against.  A lot of people here claim to be skeptics, yet claim no supporting evidence against, just their own (often politically guided) feelings on the issue.

    • DaisyMae says:

      09:49am | 19/05/10

      I understand some people do not think humans have caused climate change BUT just suppose your wrong and we have contributed? What is the harm in trying to correct it? The worst that can happen is that we get a cleaner world, but to my mind to sit back and do nothing is criminal for the generations to come. We can at least hold up our heads and say we tried.
      Abbotts scheme is rubbish, its as good as doing nothing at all. Rudd needs to get serious and bring back the ETS He has lost allot of support from Australians who do care.

    • Pex says:

      10:28am | 19/05/10

      The harm is that I’m paying thousands of dollars a year extra so the Government and some of their mates can make Billions. 
      There is also a chance that the Earth will be hit by an asteroid one day.  Shouldn’t we be building a massive shield to protect us.  It will cost billions and it may not actually happen, but what if it does?  What is the harm in trying to stop it?  To do nothing would be criminal for generations to come.

    • Steely Dan says:

      12:13pm | 19/05/10

      @ Pex

      Tell me, what are the odds of:
      A) a catastrophic asteroid hitting us; and
      B) us having the capacity to stop us?

      The best science we have says that human-induced climate change is real, and that we have the capacity to arrest it without destroying our economies.  And common sense tells us that the longer we wait, the greater the cost of our current inaction.  Poor analogy, Pex.

    • Stony says:

      12:30pm | 19/05/10

      The harm is that we focus on carbon tax and carbon offsets and unproven and untested carbon capture techniques. There’s more than just carbon dioxide factoring in this global warming, whether it is the fault of humans all not.
      The everyday people will pay billions to let big corporations obtain “carbon offsets” so that they can produce exactly the same amount of pollution they always did. The global warming problem is a complex one, and our government trivialises and continues to support it with their ETS scheme.

    • persephone says:

      12:52pm | 19/05/10

      Stony

      what you’re saying goes against the science.

      Yes, there are factors which traditionally impact on climate and cause warming.

      In this particular climate change episode, however, these factors have been missing.

      Their absence may, in fact, be masking the true effects of climate change.

      For example, there has not been significant (climate changing) solar activity, which has been one of the main causes identified in the past for warming episodes.

      The lack of this explains the recent cold winters in the Northern Hemisphere, and is being used to predict that there will be more of these.

      If we had more normal sun activity than we do at present, it would in fact be even hotter than it is now.

    • persephone says:

      01:08pm | 19/05/10

      Stony

      an ETS has consistently been identiified by economists of all stripes as the most effective and cheapest way of tackling climate change.

      And all techniques start off as unproven and untested.

      We won’t know which ones are feasible and which ones aren’t until they have been tested, which is an argument for funding them.

    • Silly Pete says:

      02:41pm | 19/05/10

      We will want to hope that a carbon economy works in the long run & we remain prosperous, because if not we won’t be in a position to deal with the consequences of massive long term global climate change, wether man man or not.

    • ChrisR1 says:

      06:10pm | 19/05/10

      Steely Dan you say ‘The best science we have says that human-induced climate change is real’ - this is not quite true.

      What it says is that based on consolidated data from studies that have been peer reviewed that there is a likelihood at p90 (ie at a 90% level of statisitcal probability) that observed increases in global average tempertaure are caused by human activity. This isn’t the same as what you said.

      This declaration operates on the assumption that the observed data is sound, properly gathered, interpreted and analysed and that as such the conclusions drawn from it are reasonable.

      I have some issues with this (look at some of the studies on tree ring proxies in Siberia and the small sample sizes, climate models that inadequately account for water vapour contribution, concerns about reliability of temp data and UHI effect etc), but am prepared to operate on an abatement basis to give the planet the benefit of the doubt. I want to know that the abatement methodology will work though and not simply increase costs and encourage industries to simply move offshore.

    • David says:

      09:53am | 19/05/10

      Just ‘’ google ‘’ Mr Pipik global warming .
      ’ Nuff said !!

    • Justin says:

      09:56am | 19/05/10

      I’m a supporter of climate change - up until this week, the Autumn weather in Sydney has been fantastic. Bring it on!

    • watty says:

      09:58am | 19/05/10

      Hugo—-in days of old you would have been burnt at the stake for such heretical talk.

      Colgan says it all.the AGW worshippers thought they had fooled us all but as Colgan points out

      “The scientists working on issues related to climate change know they have a fight on their hands to re-establish their credibility.”
      WHY?

    • persephone says:

      10:56am | 19/05/10

      Because scientists have a silly idea - based on grand and noble principles - that it isn’t their job to ‘sell’ the science, but to simply present the data, their conclusions and then let others take action.

      I know good scientists in the field who refuse to do media interviews on the basis that this sort of thing is ‘beneath’ them.

      As a result, many of those who have been ‘selling’ climate change have not been scientists by training. Although many of them have done a good job, they lack the essential expertise and understanding to explain what’s happening.

      If the rise in ‘denialism’ encourages scientists to realise that their findings have applications beyond the laboratory, and that they have a responsibility to tell the world what’s happening, at least that’s one good thing to come out of it.

    • Hamish says:

      11:38am | 19/05/10

      Perse,

      If scientists aren’t supposed to ‘sell’ the science, why are there hundreds of emails which make it quite obvious they were trying to ‘sell’ their scientific conclusions?

    • Steely Dan says:

      02:59pm | 19/05/10

      @Hamish

      Who was the audience in these emails, Hamish? Their peers, or the general audience?

    • persephone says:

      03:24pm | 19/05/10

      Hamish

      because you didn’t understand what the emails were about. They were about the need to improve their data collection and to review it to ensure that it was accurate.

      I don’t think any of those guys were lining up to do grabs for the evening news, which is what I’m talking about.

    • Simple Samuel says:

      10:34am | 19/05/10

      While few who know their stuff doubt global warming is happening, the assertion that it is entirely based upon humanities actions has to be more than a little arrogant. The earth has been heating and cooling at various points throughout it’s spins around the sun, and even the sheer number of people on this planet should be enough to cause a bump just from their own body temperatures…

      While I’m unsure if changing industrial and personal habits and processes for ‘global warming’ reasons should be done, that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be changed to limit things like pollution and waste. That might be a way to create this better future for our kids thats always talked about.

    • Saint says:

      10:45am | 19/05/10

      Paul, “skeptics” are not skeptical about climate change and do not argue that the climate hasn’t or isn’t changing. The climate changes constantly. What skeptics are skeptical about is climate change caused by humans as there is not a shred of credible evidence (and a lot to the contrary) that human acvivity has or is changing the climate.

      The reason skeptics oppose this nonsense so vigorously is that the proposed solutions are a giant scam designed to make the stakeholders very wealthy and will destroy economies and jobs and make absolutely no difference to the climate.

      So let’s at least be honest as we debate. No skeptics are denying climate change. We are asking the believers to prove that humans affect the climate before we decimate economies to implement their crazy fixes (to a problem that doesn’t exist).

    • J2h says:

      04:06pm | 21/05/10

      If you were actually a Skeptic as you say then you would know there is plenty of evidence for and not much (that hasn’t already been dis proven) against.

      A skeptic would realize that it is the amount Humans are affecting the climate that is the debatable point as we are obviously and provably affecting it in some manner, we are just not yet 100% sure how much.

      You sir are not in any way a skeptic, just another conspiracy theorist who’s opinion should be treated with as much respect as those who claim NASA didn’t land a man on the moon.

    • The Old Salt says:

      10:58am | 19/05/10

      Why doesn’t anyone seem to recognise the bleeding obvious? If all these “scientists” who claim the earth is headed for destruction because of human activated climate change found evidence that this was not the case, they would be out of a job (and a career). They have to keeping finding new “evidence”. Scientists who deny climate change don’t have much of a future if all their collegues suddenly changed their opinions and agreed with the sceptics. End of argument; end of nice little job with nice steady income.

    • Jimmy J says:

      12:34pm | 19/05/10

      100% Spot on, Rolled-Gold Correct.

      I have had friends in the CSIRO and other Govt Scientist bodies tell me point blank that they keep studying it to keep the money pouring in.

      I got a bit p-d off and said point blank well is the Earth Warming?  He laughed and said yeah it is wink wink - I can make a study show anything if my job depends on it.

      Lets just say he wasn’t popular for this attitude and thankfully he is out now and in the wine industry.  He just laughs about the GW thing now and says its garbage with AGW being just utter rubbish.

      I wish others in the system would have the integrity to put truth before living off the public purse.

    • Hamish says:

      01:55pm | 19/05/10

      Yeah and they would probably stop flying all around the world attending conferences and being chauffered around in limousines if they were really that concerned about reducing their ‘carbon footprint.’

      I’ve never found the ‘do what I say not what I do’ argument terribly convincing.

    • Steely Dan says:

      03:05pm | 19/05/10

      @The Old Salt

      “If all these “scientists” who claim the earth is headed for destruction because of human activated climate change found evidence that this was not the case, they would be out of a job (and a career).”
      Climatologists have been around a lot longer than the recognition of climate change has. 
      And does this mean that any scientific discovery which has the potential to raise interest in that field is immediately suspect?  Maybe those ‘cancer’ researchers invented the whole cancer thing! They’re always asking for money, aren’t they Old Salt?
      Anyone can say that a conspiracy is possible.  Showing that it’s probable is different.  Where’s your evidence?

    • Sherlock says:

      11:09am | 19/05/10

      Let’s make sure I get this right. If I so you a graph illustrating that from 2000 to 2009 that not only did the planet not warm but it actually cooled a little that’s only weather because it’s too short a time frame to show anything.

      However, if you show me a hot 12 month period ( a a chart for a whole 4 months) right in the middle of the el-nino period,  that’s absolute proof of global warming.

      I just want to make sure I have this right

    • Don Clark says:

      11:44am | 19/05/10

      Oh and on the NASA chart: “May 2009 to April 2010”.

      Its a 12 month comparison, not 4. For goodness sake.

      Time to dash.

    • Martin G says:

      05:14pm | 19/05/10

      Not sure why they put up a picture of the last 4 months then.

      The title above the picture is completely misleading (the caption explains what it is REALLY showing).

    • Don Clark says:

      07:49pm | 19/05/10

      Read the original article then.

    • Steve Smith says:

      11:17am | 19/05/10

      Seems on both sides of the fence people are lying or manipulating statistics to suit their case. The problem is, warming or not, changes must be made to the way we use our natural resources and consumption in general.

    • Emma says:

      12:11pm | 19/05/10

      I like this comment best of all, I don’t believe in climate change I think it’s a load of whooey. I do however want to be good to the earth and try and share it with the other animals who live here. People are like the housemate that takes over the share place.

    • shane says:

      11:22am | 19/05/10

      You can’t defeat irrationality with empirical evidence. It’s like arguing about religion, pointless.

      There will always be people who take the contrary view, largely because they have a psychological need to differentiate themselves from the crowd in that way. Actual thought on the topic (or even the topic itself) is usually a distant second to that primary motivation, though they’ll argue otherwise.

      Climate change is crap, the oil in the ground will last forever, the left are all commies, my religions better than yours blah blah blah. Pick your topic. What’s the general consensus? Well, I believe the opposite because…uummmm….because I’m special, and everyone else is a sheep. Evidence and thought is secondary to their need to stand above the crowd and led the great stupid masses of humanity to the truth that only they know. Glenn Beck in America is an extreme example.

    • Don Clark says:

      11:34am | 19/05/10

      If Shelock is talking firstly about the well-known chart used by Senator Felding, then he certainly hasn’t got it right, any more than Fielding did.

      That chart did not show plain, common-or-garden temperature, today or any other day. It did not show the planet cooling, now or over any period. What the chart tracked was temperature difference<i>:  a current average, minus a long-run average. Perfectly good way of looking at the data. 

      The only trouble for Sen Fielding is that he did not understand the chart. The temperature difference was pretty bouncy, as you might expect. But it had one clear feature: every value was a positive once. More than zero. Greater than none. 

      There is only way that can happen. The temperatures, over the span of the shart, were all <i>higher than the average. All of them. That is: temperature rising. Bouncy, but consistently more than zero. Slighlty smaller (ie still rising, if a little slower) in most recent years.

      Fileding has never admitted it - perhaps he can’t see it - but the mistaken interpretation has been pointed out many, many times, in many places, including here. 
      http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/the-real-reason-ill-fight-in-the-senate-on-climate-change/

      The other, current chart & etc is very different case. It’s a respectable, useful comparison that is, for a range of reasons, perfectly valid. I’ve got to go, so I’ll leave to others to talk about why. The reasons are not hard to find, on the NASA or BOM sites.

    • Cameron M says:

      12:56pm | 19/05/10

      Apparently you haven’t taken everything from that chart as well. The chart he provided demonstrates that there is no correlation between increases in C02 and temperature.

    • Don Clark says:

      11:37am | 19/05/10

      If Shelock is talking firstly about the well-known chart used by Senator Felding, then he certainly hasn’t got it right, any more than Fielding did. http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/the-real-reason-ill-fight-in-the-senate-on-climate-change/

      That chart did not show plain, common-or-garden temperature, today or any other day. It did not show the planet cooling, now or over any period. What the chart tracked was temperature difference<i>:  a current average, minus a long-run average. Perfectly good way of looking at the data. 

      The only trouble for Sen Fielding is that he did not understand the chart. The temperature difference was pretty bouncy, as you might expect. But it had one clear feature: every value was a positive one. More than zero. Greater than none. 

      There is only way that can happen. The temperatures, over the span of the shart, were all <i>higher than the average. All of them. That is: temperature rising. Bouncy, but consistently more than zero. Slightly smaller (ie still rising, if a little slower) in most recent years.

      Fielding has never admitted it - perhaps he can’t see it - but his mistaken interpretation has been pointed out many, many times, in many places, including here. 

      The other, current chart & etc is very different case. It’s a respectable, useful comparison that is, for a range of reasons, perfectly valid. I’ve got to go, so I’ll leave to others to talk about why. The reasons are not hard to find, on the NASA or BOM sites.

    • Don Clark says:

      01:44pm | 19/05/10

      Cameron M says:11:56am | 19/05/10
      “Apparently you haven’t taken everything from that chart as well. The chart he provided demonstrates that there is no correlation between increases in C02 and temperature. “

      No correlation? Over that short a period? No, the chart shows nothing of the sort.

      What’s to be seen is the effect of careful (chart-filling) vertical scale selection, on two differing data sets - one, simple level (CO2 steadily rising over time) vs the other, a temp difference measure, volatile but consistent with rising temps.  If anything, offers a hint *for* correlation, though not really much of a test, either way.

      If you want to check for correlation you need far more data than that, far more work, and far better application of basic, non-misleading, graphing techniques I’m afraid.  As the IPCC reports show.

      PS - pity I mangled my ital formatting in my earlier haste to catch the bus.

    • Martin G says:

      12:03pm | 19/05/10

      The world has moved on.

      Enough time and money has been wasted on this scam. There are important, REAL issues in this world that need fixing.

    • Ryan says:

      12:04pm | 19/05/10

      An ETS will stop global warming and save the world, what are they going to do with the money again?
      It’s sad that this is all so politically motivated that regardless of what the actual truth is, there are so many vested interests and exposed lies now that its going to be a hard slog to convince people either way. We can thank those like Al Gore with obvious vested interests for that, that is if the supposed “consensus” where 30000+ scientists claim there isn’t a “consensus” actually exists.

      Oh what a mess!

    • Willy K says:

      12:13pm | 19/05/10

      Its a scam.  Let it die a natural death.

      Yes the Earths temperature is always in a state of flux.  Can man alter it?  No.

      Is man wrecking the planet?  Yes.  Can we help the planet?  Yes.

      Lets just concentrate on direct action to stop the destruction of rainforest and animals etc.  AGW was a fraud made up by govt scientists on a good wicket and encouraged by Al Gore and his Goldman Sachs mates to make a fortune by trading hot air.

      Please do some research and you will find a litany of deceit and interest groups with snouts in the trough,

      AGW (scam)
      2000 - 2010
      RIP

    • Willy K says:

      12:25pm | 19/05/10

      Persephone.  *rolls eyes*  Why did we all know that you would be a warmist?

      Try some critical thinking rather than just the ALP party line.

      Australia is the last country it seems to not accept that AGW is not fact.  Its over in the US and UK.

    • Sam says:

      12:39pm | 19/05/10

      The poor warmists need some good news to keep them going, the sad thing is they want the world to be on the brink of destruction so they can be right! If this is the warmest year in 130 years then why was it so warm in 1880? Was that man made warming too? And why was it so warm in the Neaderthal age? Were those cave dwellers leaving huge carbon footprints? lol so much nonsense passed off as fact by warmists is quite frankly amusing.

    • Saint says:

      01:14pm | 19/05/10

      Willy K and Sam - good onya both - some sanity.

      It’s amazing how these warmists are so desperate for the world to be cooking itself to death just so they can be right.

      It’s also amazing how they can KNOW that the science is settled and we should destroy the economy now to fix things.

      And yes, the world has moved on and hopefully we will too soon and Persephone (yes, indeed, of course she would be a warmist) and the gang can start howling about the next apocalypse.

      Swine Flu anyone??

    • persephone says:

      03:29pm | 19/05/10

      Of course I’d be a warmist - for the same reason that you guys keep going ballistic whenever I post an argument and you can’t refute it.

      I make my mind up according to the evidence.

      I listen to experts and ask questions.

      I read an awful lot, particularly on important issues.

      I don’t just accept what Andrew Bolt and his ilk tell me; I’m not that lazy.

      I’m not afraid to face facts, just because they’re ‘inconvenient’.

    • b says:

      08:45pm | 20/05/10

      persephone

      Thats a laugh.  Any rational thinking person would think you got your arguments straight from ALP, Al Gore and the Climate Change Bible.

      I am still yet to see one credible article OR comment by you today.  All it has been like is listening to a 1800’s preacher on a London Corner.

    • Elphaba says:

      12:26pm | 19/05/10

      All I know is that it’s bloody cold in the mornings!

      Good sleeping weather though.  Yay for doonas. grin

    • Harquebus says:

      12:36pm | 19/05/10

      We have been chopping down trees since we first invented the axe. We have been changing the climate for thousands of years. Want to cool the planet? Plant trees. Lot’s of ‘em.

    • Nathman says:

      12:43pm | 19/05/10

      Right…. So if it really is happening, what is our government doing about it?? Oh that’s right, NOTHING until after the election. Because in 2 years the government will somehow being in “A better position” to make a decision. Sorry Mr Lizard.

      What what’s the Australian public doing about it? Well, NOTHING if they have to pay for it with an ETS.

      And what is the global community doing? Ah that’s right, keeping it all under a 2*C change, right? Um, not exactly. NOTHING would be a much better description given the Copenhagen ‘agreement’ is non legally binding.

      *sigh* So let sit back and crack open a beer and talk about other things. Sounds like a much better plan to me.

    • Red Baron says:

      12:44pm | 19/05/10

      Another opportunity missed.
      The ETS gave us a real chance to grow from a hole in the ground economy to one where the mineral booms would be the cream on the top.
      Sadly we are more scared of the big BOO than real success

    • benni says:

      01:01pm | 19/05/10

      I won’t claim to know anything about global warming, but in it’s history, hasn’t the earth endured several ice ages?  Like 5? (according to wiki). 

      Obviously the ice ages ended, which means that the earth warmed up again…

      Wouldn’t this show a pattern of global cooling/warming long, long before humans were around?

    • Frank says:

      02:02pm | 19/05/10

      So true. Just last time that happed the human population was only in the thousands, now we’re 6billion.  So, next time North America including places like New York,  and most of Europe disappear under a 3km thick ice sheet, it will be an unprecedented event because it will have had a major effect on an unprecedented large population. Similarly with the next ‘hot climate’ event when same places are turned into deserts.

    • Steely Dan says:

      03:10pm | 19/05/10

      @ benni

      Thanks, benni, but we’re all well aware of that.

      Nobody is claiming that humans releasing fossil fuel emissions is the only way that the climate can be altered.  The issue is that we’re getting warmer at an unprecedented rate when the usual natural factors are either not in play, or not contributing to a significant degree.  This is warming outside of the pattern.

    • persephone says:

      03:38pm | 19/05/10

      Yes, benni, but the causes for each of those past warmings are identifiable.

      None of them apply to the present, which is why scientists looked for another answer.

      It’s arguable that,  given the absence of those factors, we should be cooling, not warming, at present.

    • Andrew says:

      01:10pm | 19/05/10

      When those who are supposed to be worried show some urgency then I’ll start to worry.

      Until then, if someone could please explain to me how putting a tax on emissions will reverse or halt global warming rather than just act as a wealth transfer I’d love to be informed. Seriously. Don’t jump down my throat and shout herectic! I just want a simple explanation of how the proposed solution to AGW is going to actually work.

      I would also be very interested to learn how an ETS in Australia (~1% world emissions) is going to do anything other than amuse say China & India.

      On the science front, I must say I have very little faith in scientists at all. To say any science is settled is bunk. The only absolute proofs are mathematical and anything else is speculative theory. I would also suggest that if you form a group called the Global Cooling Institute and fully fund it and staff it with thousands of scientists, bureaucrats, lawyers, accountants, researchers, pollsters and politicians, then if they create a report it will most likely say something like “The earth is cooling at an alarmingly rapid rate due to (insert economic reason here).”
      Once that report comes out someone (maybe a former politician and say one of the worlds largest investment banks) will work out how to make money out of it. They’ll lobby governments to organise a worldwide market to trade the nebulous commodity and Robert is your mother brother, we have a new improved commodity market. A commodity by the way which is both nebulous, difficult to exactly measure and da da da ... never ending and inexhaustable!

      So many more things to say, so many more questions to ask, so many more people to ridicule.

    • iansand says:

      04:07pm | 19/05/10

      The Global Cooling Institute exists, but they call it the Heartland Institute for some reason.  They are already doing the other stuff you list.

    • J2h says:

      04:36pm | 21/05/10

      Easy, it adds a monetary cost for the carbon pollution for everything that we use.. thus companies will have to change their processes to produce less carbon dioxide and indeed can even sell their difference in output from the normal amount for that industry for a profit to other companies.

      It will have the net effect of gradually bringing down the average Carbon dioxide output. 

      Now of course this only happening in Australia won’t magically fix all the worlds problems (as no-one is claiming it will).. however it would put us in a perfect position to be able to export our green-tech and expertise to other slower moving countries and make a large amount of money for our economy…. at this rate we will just be buying the tech off other countries that get there before us.

      Remember it isn’t just making companies produce less carbon dioxide, it is making them more efficient, use less power/materials etc.. which will in the long run make them even more competitive on the international market.

    • Charles Radford-Bourke says:

      01:26pm | 19/05/10

      People,  Your missing the point.
      New research suggests the average temperature will rise by 20 degrees with an agerage day being in the 60’s.  Oceans will rise by an average of 10 metres and we will all boil in our skins

      (ps: figures recalculated after “Mikes Nature Trick” was applied to the statistics to “hide the decline”

    • L Gore says:

      02:07pm | 19/05/10

      There was no effort to hide any decline.  The science was true.

    • Ray says:

      01:29pm | 19/05/10

      ” Here’s a fact you might hear repeated quite a bit over the coming months. The past 12 months were the hottest ever.” To refer to it as a fact and as the hottest ever 12 months, suggests that the author is gullible.
      It also suggests that NASA went into hibernation during the coldest Northern winter for over 50 years. NASA’s temperature records only go back some 40 years at most. Going on the reputation of some of the people who work for NASA, it would not surprise if they cherry-picked temperature records to support their alarmist assertion.
      In any case, even if the global temperature did rise in the 12 months, no one, yes no one, has been able to produce irrefutable evidence that human activities are the driver of global warming.

    • Cynical says:

      01:37pm | 19/05/10

      It’s always entertaining reading peresphone’s KRudd loving comentary…I’m always amazed when facts are not allowed to get in the way of ideology. I’m a scientist, I’m a statistician, I’m a so-called skeptic. First though, let me clarify one thing - I’m 100% behind any improvements we can make to reduce poisoning our planet. But really, if the climate change do-gooders want to be taken seriously, they have to come up with less fluffy arguments. Correlation doesn’t imply causation…it’s a logical fallacy. Ice cream sales correlate well with drownings, does that mean ice cream causes drownings? No. Simple example I know, but trying to introduce logic to a Labor stooge is like clapping with one hand. The data discussed above surely shows a one-fifth of one degree celsius jump every decade (why they couldn’t just say 0.2 degrees is beyond me), but how exactly was the data analysed? Was it discrete packages of 10 years? One year? Daily? What outliers were removed? What limits? It says it’s been analysed every decade since the late 70’s, well correct me if I’m wrong, but that’s only 3 data points. No one can draw a trend out of that and be taken seriously. There is also no information on any changes to the immediate environments around any weather stations - 0.2 degrees isn’t much. If the climate change faction want change then they will need to come up with solid statistical analyses and scientific methods.

    • iansand says:

      03:00pm | 19/05/10

      I wonder if NASA employs any statisticians?  Probably not.  They usually let the work experience kid do stuff like this.  Next you will be telling me that the whole thing is caused by confusing metric and imperial units…

    • Mark says:

      03:27pm | 19/05/10

      Cynical says:

      12:37pm | 19/05/10

      “It’s always entertaining reading peresphone’s KRudd loving comentary…”

      Actually it was once. No as desperation has crept in it is sort of boring

    • Steely Dan says:

      03:35pm | 19/05/10

      Then look into it, Cynical. Find the paper, go through the methodology and criticise any issues you find. 
      This is a current affairs story written by a journalist who is reporting on a scientific report - are you really surprised that the detail you want isn’t on this website?

    • Cynical says:

      06:10pm | 19/05/10

      I have no doubt the data was collected in good faith…but Iansand you know and I know, data can be manipulated to show anything you want it to show. You miss my point entirely…the warmists need to stick with the hard and fast facts, and there is plenty of evidence that polluting our world is doing us damage. But you stick with the global warming theory, using a statistically insignificant period of time, fuzzy inferences and dubious correlations and shoot yourselves in the foot each time. CFC’s were banned globally after it was shown that 1) the ozone layer protects the Earth somewhat, and 2) CFC’s destroy ozone molecules. Irrefutable facts and the world acted quickly. Debate still exist on whether the hole is getting bigger/smaller/has always been there…but CFC’s are gone and that can only be a good thing. Stick to pollution, health effects, land fill, the garbage islands in our oceans, overpopulation, over fishing…they will win you points. While ever you hold onto alarmist strategies people will be skeptical.

    • Cynical says:

      06:12pm | 19/05/10

      ...and Don, you can throw all the links you want my way, there’s more than likely an equal amount of links that disagree with yours.

    • Don Clark says:

      07:21pm | 19/05/10

      “Cynical” queried the techniques and expertise used to arrive at the results. Like many another before him, he could have checked to find out, as he was drafting his criticism. 

      As he didn’t, I showed him where he could - plus some other usefuls. Of course, the article itself was also well equipped with relevant embedded links. These too he ignored. Why?

      I’ve read plenty of links and books on both sides of the case. An ocean of them. The most comprehensive, most consistent, least hysterical,  most widely used and most widely available, with the longest history, are all consistent -  in their confident conclusion that we have man-made global warming.

      Like many another before him, Cynical is keen to make critical claims but markedly reluctant to check whether his claims have the least foundation. Even when the source is waved in front of his face. Could check but wouldn’t check.  This he’d like to paint as some ploy of mine, to muddy over the weakness of his position.  Tough. Won’t wash.

      Besides, the links may help, and interest, others with an open mind and some curiosity.

      As for one of the other replies, questioning why/whether NASA would have any statisticians, well, how laughable. Need I explain? Hardly! Can’t accept that, either ? OK - Look at the NASA and Goddard sites, for yourselves.

      Time to get busy for the evening.  It’s a while since I posted here much, though I’ve kept reading from time to time. It’s a great shame more psoters don’t think and check before they slather away, honestly.

      I see careful posters like IanSand

    • Don Clark says:

      07:55pm | 19/05/10

      IanSand,  on looking again, saw the ironic point of your remark - with which I wholly agree.

    • persephone says:

      09:29pm | 19/05/10

      OK, cynical: Don’s got at least six there, challenge on.

      Remember, though, that each of yours must refute one of his.

    • B says:

      08:53pm | 20/05/10

      Lol Don.

      All you have done here is throw a bunch of links here showing the same data. If I were Cynical I wouldn’t have even dignified your comment with a response.

      But seriously, if we are refuting the data put out by NASA, why the bloody hell would you post more links to the same data?  That just smacks of desperation!!

    • john says:

      01:47pm | 19/05/10

      Well it proves that the data is all rubbish then.

      Europe and North America had one of their coldest winters on record.

    • Dennis Nelson says:

      01:59pm | 19/05/10

      Trust me , Im a scientist .Sorry you have damaged your cred. with your political bias.

    • Mixter says:

      02:00pm | 19/05/10

      Wow… if the planet is warming up, its because of all these flames!!!

      Calm down people.  We’re not climatologists.  Many of us are not even scientists.  We develop opinions based on sensationalist reporting of mis-information.  And then we burn each other to the ground on the basis of those opinions.

      There can be little doubt that humans affect our environment.  We dam the rivers, and till the land.  These actions are causal in some environmental changes.  I think its best to accept that our actions are affecting our environment - but that we’re not yet agreed on whether those changes will have long term negative effects - or whether they’re reversible.

    • neil says:

      02:02pm | 19/05/10

      “The past 12 months were the hottest ever.” “the warmest in 131 years”

      Well which is it “ever” or “131 years”? Obviously it’s not ever because we know the earth has been much hotter many times over, even as recently as the Medieval and Roman warming periods. So 131 years whacko!

      You can’t measure climate variation in years or even decades it too variable, so lets all get back together in about 100 years, the data maybe able to show a long term trend by then.

    • interloper says:

      02:05pm | 19/05/10

      Firstly, this is data. Information. Just because it doesn’t accord with your world view, you can’t pretend it doesn’t exist.
      Secondly, we know that the Earth has fluctuated between climate extremes for millions of years. The problem here is not that there’s climate change, but that it seems to be happening at an extraordinary rate, which might be faster than the planet’s ability to adapt.
      Thirdly, none of this is ‘proven’ science, but it’s all more likely than not. Isn’t the risk of not acting if it’s real greater than the risk of acting if it’s not?
      Finally, anyone who suggests that cutting Australian emissions could make any measurable change is an idiot (yes, I’m looking at you Bob Brown).  ‘Moral’ challenges aside, the issue is actually one about structural reform of the economy, to put it in the best possible state twenty years in the future. An ETS would help that. It’s not the only useful approach. Any decent capitalist should be dong the exercise of predicting the way the world is moving, and trying to get ahead of the pack.

    • Steely Dan says:

      04:15pm | 19/05/10

      @ interloper

      “Finally, anyone who suggests that cutting Australian emissions could make any measurable change is an idiot”
      What a great argument for not paying my taxes! I’m just one man, somebody else will pick up the slack.

    • persephone says:

      04:32pm | 19/05/10

      Or not saving water.

      A few litres a day out of megalitres?

      Like I make a difference.

    • interloper says:

      05:28pm | 19/05/10

      @Steely Dan
      Taxes are a collective agreement by a society to share the burden of funding goods and services used by the society as a whole. If there’s a collective (read global) agreement on cutting emissions, Australia should be part of it. If not, our action alone cannot make a difference.

    • Steely Dan says:

      06:20pm | 19/05/10

      @ interloper

      “our action alone cannot make a difference.”
      Well, it would make a difference, although only about 1%.  The difference Australia (and the other rich countries above the median per head GHG emissions) can make is to demonstrate that we can lower emissions without destroying the economy.  We have the capacity to do the R&D, and necessity will drive innovations which will help the Indias of the world achieve their reductions targets in the future.  Switching to renewables as soon as possible will make Australian companies industry leaders.  I’m convinced its good long-term economic and environmental policy.

    • interloper says:

      06:38pm | 19/05/10

      @ Steely Dan
      I agree! Well, mostly. 1% of emissions doesn’t make a measurable difference to global warming. Otherwise, you’re repeating my point. There are strong economic arguments for moving to a low-carbon economy. Just don’t confuse these with environmental arguments.

    • Steely Dan says:

      11:27am | 20/05/10

      @ interloper

      “There are strong economic arguments for moving to a low-carbon economy. Just don’t confuse these with environmental arguments.”
      No, they’re both.  We can provide a demonstration for how transitioning to renewables/low or no carbon energy sources can be done, and we can provide the technical tools for countries to achieve their targets.

    • Hermann Weber says:

      02:08pm | 19/05/10

      I am just a reader interested in these affairs. I have read so much material my head swims. Each side says present facts and they do, But they contradict each other. One lot says it was not warmer when Christ lived, then I read the history of the Roman Empire and I am told it was warmer by 2 to 6 degrees then it is today, with Olive trees growing as far North as the Rhine. Who knows. I put my faith in the adaptability and ingenuity of the Human race.
      BTW just ask the Europeans about their Spring and coming Summer. They are all whining because its so cold. But then that might be the volcano in Iceland.
      Hermann from Clare

    • Colin says:

      02:09pm | 19/05/10

      First up - i’m a sceptic. That doesn’t mean I don’t believe in the theory of global warming, it means I’m not convinced by the current proof.
      However, I must say I’m wavering and that’s despite the email controversy and “glaciergate”. i can’t point to any one thing that made me think again, but the warmists have not done themselves (or our planet) any favours. The hysteria and finger pointing rather than rational persuasion puts me off. Some of the arguments have been the subject of much hyperbole, that hurts the cause. My thoughts are - if the case is so persuasive, why should they need to fudge things?
      Nevertheless, I think a conversation with a meteorologist friend was my tipping point. He pointed out that the atmosphere is very thin - and the amount of stuff we’re pumping into it, undoubtedly has influenced the climates of cities. All that global warming represents is an extension of this argument.

      So I’m swaying.

      However, articles like this don’t help. Taking cores out of the lakes bottom has a correlation with surface temperature exactly how? Pull the other one.

    • persephone says:

      03:58pm | 19/05/10

      Because the soil etc in lake bottoms is laid down in layers, so you can sequence them.

      This means that each layer can be dated fairly precisely and gives you a chronological record, going back sometimes for thousands of years.

      Scientists can then analyse the layers, looking at things like trapped oxygen bubbles, to work out climatic conditions on the surface at the time the layer was put down.

      And yes, I started off as a sceptic, as should all people who come to an issue new. Like you, I was lucky enough to sit down with a scientist in the field and ask all the searching questions I want to (something I still do, when something pops into my head which seems to contradict the science!).

    • Colin says:

      05:07pm | 19/05/10

      Yes, I would think that would be the reasoning. I clicked on the link and read the article, but this wasn’t spelt out.
      They’re drawing a long bow if they think that annual temperature differences can be worked out to to the level of accuracy that is required. Remember, we’re not talking the difference between boiling and freezing - it’s a small difference that is at issue.
      And even if this is true - and I’m sorely tempted to believe that this evidence is proof - their data collection method provides precious little evidence that any warming that they may collect is driven by man.

      But I appreciate your comments and the tone in which they are mode - a tome of discussion rather than the shrill, hectoring holier than thou nonsense sprouted forth by the Dear Leader, amongst others.

    • iansand says:

      05:40pm | 19/05/10

      Colin - There are multiple strands.  One thing those lake bed core can tell you is what sort of plants were growing from pollen.  Certain plants can grow in certain temperature ranges.  They can look at tree rings - greater deposition each year means warmer temperatures.  And they can look at ice cores - also deposited in annual layers depending on precipitation, from which temperature can be extrapolateed.  There are a gazillion ways to infer palaeo climate.  The problem is that everything at which they look points in one direction.  To misquote Oscar Wilde - One indication may be unfortunate, but manifold indications begins to look like carelessness.

    • Pallywood says:

      02:18pm | 19/05/10

      Gotta love the misleading start of this article: “The past 12 months were the hottest ever.”

      HIlarious. Earth is over 4 billion years old. Life has been around for the majority of that. Man has been actively measuring temperature for about 130 years. And suddenly one slightly warm year relative to the last 130 is “the warmest ever”? I know the author later clarifies the statement, but why open with a bald faced lie at all?

      People need to get their heads around geological time and that climate change is the norm, not abnormal. Those who claim that the current changes are unprecedently rapid simply need to look at the most reliable graphs we have and they will see similar or greater rates of temp change in both directions all the way through history. We don’t live in extraordinary times geologically speaking (except, perhaps, for our very low concentration of atmospheric CO2 and fairly high amount of ice cover).

    • Jonno says:

      02:43pm | 19/05/10

      Forget the dodgy climate figures, and instead watch the charlatans with dodgy technology and excuses for raising taxes to “fix the weather”
      Also it may not be people who have changed the weather, as much as its a natural progression of increased solar activity.
      Scientist dont seem to have a clue.
      Fifty years from now, we will have the Ozone layer fixed.
      DuPont’s patent on refrigeration gas ran out about the time it became an issue.  Global scams are workable if you have an industrial based scientific interest… Follow the money trail. You’ll see what I mean.

    • David C says:

      02:48pm | 19/05/10

      Wow climate change again, where has the time gone?
      So its the warmest April, so what, so its the wamest decade , so what. Look at any chart .. past performance is no indciation of future performance
      Climate is changing, man is probably involved (debate about how much)
      The debate has always been, and Im sorry for the alarmists will always be, about how much to go and what will be the impacts. Personally I am not happy about spending billions of dollars to save a lizard. Seems to me if you take the Gores and Clive Hamiltons out of the discussion you might have a fruiful debate.
      Climate science is new and incredibly complex, to say you know the future is just playing politics through science

    • Rob r Charteris says:

      02:59pm | 19/05/10

      The Liberal party is not only Climate Change deniers but also GFC deniers, how can you trust what they say. Especially as they have admitted they like lying to suit whatever purpose that arises.

    • AJ says:

      03:02pm | 19/05/10

      “climate change” has been going on for 4 billion years. So the climate on our beautiful planet changes sometimes it tends towards warming and some times tends towards cooling.So get over it! Now the debate should be clearly defined around how much of the current warming cycle is additional warming to that of a normal warming cycle. I love humanity but should i die to stop breathing out C02? No to an ETS cause that is what Global bankers want to make more money.  No to carbon tax which taxes every area of your life. Love cheap energy, stay warm and relax cause one thing is for sure “the science is not settled” on global warming. Look behind the story. Look for who is going to profit from a carbon tax and ETS. I think you will find it’s the usual suspects.

    • Steve says:

      03:21pm | 19/05/10

      The last decade may have been the hottest however, I’d be surprised if it wasn’t since we are coming out of the little ice age of the 1600s. 

      The decadal rate of warming has not increased since the 1860s (during the four warming periods global temps rose at around 0.16 degrees C per decade ) as Phil Jones admitted ...

      he wrote:

      “As for the two periods 1910-40 and 1975-1998 the warming rates are not statistically significantly different. I have also included the trend over the period 1975 to 2009, which has a very similar trend to the period 1975-1998.
      So, in answer to the question, the warming rates for all 4 periods are similar and not statistically significantly different from each other.”

      Thus I don’t see anything but natural causes here.

    • Bollard says:

      03:28pm | 19/05/10

      Anyone seen Al Gore’s new house!!! Look it up LOL

    • PatC says:

      03:31pm | 19/05/10

      A “Consensus of Scientists” agreed that the world was flat.

      A “Consensus of Scientists” agreed that planet Earth was the centre of the universes and all heavenly bodies rotated around it.

      A “Consensus of Scientists” agreed the man could never travel faster than the speed of a galloping horses.

      A “Consensus of Scientists” agreed the heavier than air flight was impossible.

      A “Consensus of Scientists” agreed that man would never walk on the moon.

      Most of the scientists who agreed to the points above were quite possibly the best and brightest of their time and made the best decisions they could with the understandings they had. Or maybe their patrons sponsorship (funding) was tied to holding certain points of view. Some, I’m sure, disagreed with the consensus but didn’t speak out for fear of ridicule or possible persecution.

      Just because a number of people agree on something does not necessarily make it so - no matter how big that number is or how qualified those people are.

      All research carries the risk of researchers skewing results towards an outcome based on their perceptions. This is not a slight on scientific research it is just what happens. Our brains are good goal seeking tools and will find or create the results we are looking for. If you go looking for evidence of global warming you will find it - if you go looking for evidence for global cooling you will find it. That’s just the way it is.

      Most research into “Global Warming” or “Climate Change” has funding that is linked to certain points of view, either for or against. The desired outcome is known before the research takes place. There is no “double blind” between funding and research. Even the IPCC, by it’s very name seeks to find evidence of climate change - its not the International Panel on Climate - not the International Panel on Climate Stability but International Panel on Climate Change.

      Remove the link between the research and the funding and have that research overseen by an independent body for a fixed period so there is no incentive to find any particular result. Maybe then we can get some truth into this debate, instead of perceptions, opinions and party lines.

    • interloper says:

      03:54pm | 19/05/10

      Pat, it seems that you don’t know many scientists. There are certainly some whose research findings follow the funding, but there are many, many more who’s motivation is not money but a deeper understand of how the world works.  Please don’t assume they are all venal.

    • persephone says:

      04:03pm | 19/05/10

      Well, that’s how most scientific research works in Australia, and it’s not coming out with anything different on climate change to anyone else.

    • Garth Godsman says:

      03:35pm | 19/05/10

      @persephone

      “and when it [global average temperature] has changed, in the past, it has been relatively easy to determine why.”

      Really?

      Wow, have you had this ground breaking research published yet?

      Because that would come as a total surprise to climate scientists and geologists!

      But if you were even passingly familiar with the literature, (and clearly you’re not), you’d know how uncertain they are about the causes of even relatively recent climate variability.

    • Garth Godsman says:

      04:33pm | 19/05/10

      They are a list of very likely causes of climate change in the deep past. My main issue was your mistaken certainty.

      You seem to have little understanding of the degrees of uncertainty that are unavoidably part of a science where there is little in the way of direct measurement (as Hugo was trying to point out to you).

      We are reduced to making inferences from various climate proxies.

      So, do we know what caused the Medieval Warm Period, (and please even Phil Jones now concedes that it may have been a global event), the Roman Climate Optimum, the possible Minoan Warm Period or the Holocene Climate Optimum - all within just the last 8,000 years?

      The answer is that we do not. People have theories, but we do not have the certain knowledge you mistakenly believe we do.

      As with many issues relating to the distant past and the very nature of the evidence available, such certainty is literally impossible.

      So you are simply wrong to assert that we “know” what caused previous episodes of climate change.

      The best that we can achieve is to be reasonably sure about things, but with large margins of error.

      So until we can explain what caused at least 3 episodes of warming within the most recent interglacial, CO2 is in fact not a proven cause of the most recent warming that we are experiencing, though it must be a factor.

    • persephone says:

      09:52pm | 19/05/10

      A hundred posts which don’t recognise the inherent sceptism of scientists and you have to walk into mine.

      Garth, it is apparent that you have read my previous posts. In the first few, I scatter around a fair bit of ‘as far as we can tell’ type statements and note that science never reaches a stage where something is proven absolutely.

      Obviously, as I continue posting on the same subject, it gets a bit tiresome to repeatedly say ‘as far as we can tell’ ‘given the present state of the science’ etc etc (OK I didn’t use exactly those phrases, but I’m not trawling back for the sake of absolute accuracy).

      So I don’t. I assume, having made the point a couple of times, people will understand that I do understand the basis of scientific theorising and I don’t have to keep repeating myself.

      Similarly, it’s extremely interesting that you hoe into me for not qualifying my statements, whilst giving full support to the tosh Hugo spouted - which I think undermines your credibility as a ‘balanced’ poster a little bit.

      BTW, I think you blew your whole argument in your last paragraph - by your own criteria, we will never prove what caused the last episodes of global warming, so we will never know what is causing this.

      I’m a bit nervous about the idea of never acting on anything until we get 100% proof that we understand everything about it.

      I’m surprised you’re brave enough to get out of bed in the mornings - with the high level of proof you demand, are you sure that the world really exists?

    • Garth Godsman says:

      11:05pm | 19/05/10

      @persephone Hmmm, I’m not sure I buy your excuse.

      You also stated a number of times quite clearly your belief that we knew what caused particular episodes of global warming that occurred before the instrumental record.

      We don’t. What you said was simply inaccurate nonsense. But it has been a typical tactic of climate hysterics to do this, ie overstate degrees of confidence and run far too far ahead of the actual data.

      And you still haven’t learnt have you? Hugo was clearly referring to the instrumental temperature record - which is only 100 - 150 years old - and he was right and you obviously failed to understand what he was saying.

      “BTW, I think you blew your whole argument in your last paragraph - by your own criteria, we will never prove what caused the last episodes of global warming, so we will never know what is causing this.”

      No, not if you think about it.

      It simply supports my contention that there are still huge areas of doubt and huge gaps in our knowledge, and these can’t continue to be swept under the carpet by the hysterics.

      In the face of such doubt and uncertainty the only rational response is to proceed cautiously and try to learn more about how the Earth’s climate actually works.

      I’d also point out that the current warming period is the first to happen since the scientific revolution and thus our ability to monitor and measure it as it happens, instead of trying to work out what happened in the past by way of proxy data.

      That’s a huge difference.

      But my question remains unanswered - if we don’t know what caused at least 3 episodes of global warming within just the last 10,000 years, then how can we discount that whatever drove those periods of warming (AND their intervening periods of cooling) is not at work now?

      Finally, who asked for 100% proof? Not me. But we have got to be honest about what we don’t know.

    • persephone says:

      09:33am | 20/05/10

      Garth

      please nominate the 3 periods you’re talking about, because otherwise the discussion is meaningless.

      I note to start with that the Medieval Warming Period is not regarded as one of them because it was not global, whereas the present warming is.

      I can’t tell you if there are explanations for them unless I know what you’re referring to.

      Still interested as to why you’re holding me to higher standards than other posters here, who have been equally generalist in their language.

    • Ando says:

      07:20pm | 20/05/10

      Its easier to see things in hindsight, just as its little easier to see what caused climate change after it happened.  It is not a walk in the park, but the fact that scientists have an ‘idea’ of what caused past changes in climate does not mean that proving the current trend is so simple.

      We need to disprove other possibilities too.  It helped Edison and his version of electric light and it would help this planet a whole lot more if a bit more positive focus is shown towards this.  Instead, I’m seeing banks in Europe paying for carbon trading support adverts.

    • John says:

      03:35pm | 19/05/10

      Just a quickie: if the generally quoted rise in global temperature anomaly since records began (~1870’s or there abouts) is 0.6 - 0.7 degrees C above the 1880ish to 1980 average (IPCC, GISS and CRU numbers here), even discounting for any warming before the 1970’s (of which the stated institutions confirm there has been), then how does one fith (0.2) of a degree per decade from 19790 work? - That’s 4 decades @ 0.2 = 0.8 folks…  Guess it doesnt - add pre 1970 warming and hey, we’re way above measured numbers… something’s not quite right here!
      Poor opinion piece here, hopefully someday you will realise that the question is not IF there has been warming - heck, we just came out of a little ice age in the mid 1800’s (temps ~1.5 - 2 degrees below ‘normal’) - but what is the cause! How about the sun for starters…

    • Paul Colgan

      Paul Colgan says:

      03:42pm | 19/05/10

      Ahem. Can I make a polite request for some civility?

      Just because someone disagrees with your view on this doesn’t warrant childish name-calling or accusations of stupidity or ignorance.

      Punch on.

    • interloper says:

      03:49pm | 19/05/10

      You’re absolutely right. On the other hand, some contrtibutors on both sides of the debate are stupid and/or ignorant. That’s an objective assessment.

    • Darren P says:

      03:43pm | 19/05/10

      i doubt the author even understands negative feedbacks

    • Paul Colgan

      Paul Colgan says:

      04:02pm | 19/05/10

      I don’t smile

    • John says:

      04:18pm | 19/05/10

      @ Paul, apologies if a little strongly worded, should read overly biased (rather than poor). But I guess it is an opinion. Examples such as that of lake Tanganika only serve to misslead, particularly when evidence is both presented and ignored indicating strongly that land use issues such as deforestation and its consequences are likely to be the cause of the adverse situation facing the lake. This and other examples such as reported rising sea leves in Taiwan - when all of the Taiwanese evidence points to land subsidence due to poor management and over drawn ground water - very much muddy the waters and lead to over focusing on the wrong local issues to the detriment of a workable solution to the problem.

      Oh, and Darren, i do, perhapse you should too, because I’m sure you meant positive feedback, which is the theory i believe you prescribe to.

    • Dick J says:

      03:54pm | 19/05/10

      Climate warms and cools. The sea used to be where my house is and it was a desert and then a rainforest eons ago.

      I walk up a mountain and it is made of limestone and full of fossilised sea creatures. Land rises and falls the sea does likewise.

      Pleople talk about climate change in glib terms. The issue is if it is man made climate change. Copenhagen, the ETS and the IPCC is all about the MAN MADE bit if any.

      As Mark Twain said climate is what you expect weather is what you get. I’m over the hyperbole, scaremongering and money go round attached to the whole debate. It really is crap.

    • PatC says:

      07:21pm | 19/05/10

      Hear Hear.
      There are so many real issues in the world that could use some of that funding - the millennium goals to start with.

    • Rob says:

      04:05pm | 19/05/10

      When I went to primary school, in the 80’s, these so-called scientific ‘experts’ told us all that we were heading for a new global ice-age. And in the short space of 20 years, the world has done a back-flip and suddenly its global warming. Then that too got challenged, the evidence wasn’t conclusive, so the powers that be sat on the fence, giving it the PC name of Climate Change. See, if it shows we are cooling again, we can still use the term. Wonderful bit of spin, isn’t it?

    • mintxx says:

      04:21pm | 19/05/10

      the bogan fear of science will leave them with blood on their hands in generations to come, there is no doubt about it
      same bogans who keep smoking when the doctor tells them they’re dying of cancer
      so nice to indulge in the fantasy that everything is fine

    • Saskia says:

      05:41pm | 19/05/10

      You AGW lot are really getting desperate if you are trying the scare tactics again.

      Why can’t you just admit that AGW might be dubious?  No one will care if you change your minds.

      Its the blind adherence to a theory which is about as real as the flat earth theory that actually makes you look a fool.  If the facts are just not there - just let it go.  Just chill out and move on.  Plant some trees and be happy.

    • freeman says:

      09:30pm | 19/05/10

      hahaha, Yeah good work mintxx,
      as an agw sceptic (but not a smoker) can i say that your comments reeeaaaalllyyy hurt. as a bogan, I actually find the science of it somewhat interesting. doesn’t mean I’m going to swallow everything that al gore, the UN and progressive media feeds me though.

    • Max says:

      04:23pm | 19/05/10

      The author misrepresents the skeptics view completely. There are not too many people who would disagree that our climate is changing, but the argument the skeptics make is whether we can prove that this change is being driven by carbon dioxide.

      This article does nothing to answer this question and there may still be no definitive proof that the warming we are seeing is not part of a natural cycle. And while a gentle warming is being observed in many places over the globe, some of the ‘levelling’ of these temperature datsets has been positively biased to misrepresent the rate of warming.

      I also find it interesting that the ‘skeptics’ are being criticised for normal questioning and critical review of the current science - this is what scientists are supposed to do. [this sentence deleted for silly use of capital letters] (remember flat earh?)

    • James says:

      04:27pm | 19/05/10

      It might not be worth the bother trying to explain the science of climate change to so called “sceptics”, there is the possiblity that the don’t have the brains to understand it, no matter how many times you explain it to them.

    • Pallywood says:

      04:44pm | 19/05/10

      Welllll, that was a constructive post there James!

      Just to stoop to your level for a second, you left off the ‘y’ in ‘they’. It pays to spell correctly when criticising the intelligence levels of your opponents.

      Meanwhile, James, can I ask you what your educational background is? Seeing you claim to have a superior understanding of climate change beyond that which sceptics like myself are capable of…

    • Jimmy J says:

      05:09pm | 19/05/10

      Climate change exists.  That isn’t the issue.  We all believe that the Earths temperate is in a state of flux.

      However, man-made global warming or AGW is very very dodgy and is what the intelligent portion of society question strongly along with the absurd notion that man can cool the globe via a ETS!  That truly is a scam.

    • Colin says:

      05:28pm | 19/05/10

      For those who read my little piece above, this is a good example of the shrill, belittling know it all crud that frustrates me about this debte. Why is it so hard to be a sceptic, without it being in ironic quotes? If, the facts as I see and understand them change, I change my mind. Simple as that - and I believe it is a rational position.
      I’m not going to be bullied by some politicians/friends/colleagues that an unproven position is in fact proven.
      And by the way, consensus is not a scientific principal - it is a negotiating or political technique. Science has to do with proof. Peer reviewed articles are not proof, especially when there is a nice little cottage industry in I scratch your back, you scratch mine system between scientists.
      Yet, even through the murky haze that the left has placed on climate change and it’s man made cause, there may be a kernel of truth. To persuade people James, you need more class than you’re showing.

    • James says:

      11:25am | 20/05/10

      @Pallywood. I’m a terrible speller and ever worse at grammar, which is why I did a degree in Physics & Masters in Energy Studies.  Now admit that you are as bad at science as I am at writing and that.

    • Steely Dan says:

      11:32am | 20/05/10

      @ Colin

      “I’m not going to be bullied by some politicians/friends/colleagues that an unproven position is in fact proven.  And by the way, consensus is not a scientific principal…”
      Neither is ‘proof’, Colin. Proof is for mathematics. Disregarding scientific consensus because it’s not ‘proof’ is extraordinarily naive.

    • Pallywood says:

      01:53pm | 20/05/10

      @James. No problem that you are bad at spelling. Just don’t make blind assumptions about other peoples’ intelligence levels, or understanding of science. Good to hear you are scientifically educated. Myself I have an Honours degree in Computer Engineering. Neither of us are climatologists, but we both are capable of assessing the ever-changing statistics and theories and drawing a logical conclusion regarding causes of climate change.

      Why must someone agree with YOUR conclusion with regards to an unproven theory in order to have “the brains”?

      Oh, and I am an excellent speller and fairly capable with grammar. Physics and English don’t need to me mutually exclusive.

    • Garth Godsman says:

      05:03pm | 19/05/10

      Previous comment seems to have gotten lost, so can I just point out again what a speculative piece of rubbish the Lake Tanganyika story.

      The attribution of various problems by the authors is nothing more than a guess, and they effectively admit it.

      And here it is, interestingly enough buried right at the end of a media report I saw - “But the paper admits that other factors, like overfishing, may be doing more harm than any warming.”

      May be doing? So what they are saying is that they actually don’t know. But citing climate change no matter what almost guarantees you world-wide headlines.

      This is the kind of dishonest media-hyping that is sadly being practiced all too often by attention seeking scientists these days.

      And here is what another peer reviewed paper had to say about the cause of the problems of the lake - “watershed deforestation, road building, and other anthropogenic activities result in sediment inundation…”

    • Andrew says:

      07:12pm | 19/05/10

      Pretty worthwhile point. So all of these countries that surround this lake “depend” on the fish from this lake. Just a quick question, what was the population surrounding this lake 20, 30, 50 or say 100 years ago?

      There are articles throughout the world saying that our oceans are being fished out, is AGW the cause? Or does it have something to do with the fact there are 10 times as many people on earth as there were 200 years ago.

      I wonder if the limited resources of the planet have something to do with the whole AGW debate. Hard to get people to ration without a war.

    • Don Clark says:

      05:56pm | 19/05/10

      “Rob says:03:05pm | 19/05/10:  When I went to primary school, in the 80’s, these so-called scientific ‘experts’ told us all that we were heading for a new global ice-age.”

      Errr, not quite.  In the 80s,  early climate work showed that there may be wide variation in more extreme climate, both hot and cold, at something like continental levels: some much hotter and dryer, some much colder and dryer.  The work was, given the computing power of the time, at fairly coarse scale. If I recall correctly, the overall result was early signs of warming, but the media picked it up the colder bit, as an ice age thing.

      Early on, the IPCC foresaw the need for much more work at much finer resolution, as much higher computing power became available to wook on the growing body of current observations and the growing deep historical (ice core eg) record. 

      The fruits of that finer analysis are with us now, in IPCC 4, with higher degrees of confidence in the degree of warming and sea level rise, virtual (>90% chance) certainty that man-made carbon emissions are the root cause;  and good measures of the likely rising volatility in weather - more extreme weather events.  A cold Northern Winter fits well with the expected results for changes in North Atlantic and Polar circulations, eg.

      is a new Ice Age coming or not?  I’m really not across current Ice Age work and I’m not making time to look it up now. Happy to be proved wrong by anyone with the time to spare on some careful checking - wouldn’t be hard, even for laymen like us.  So, maybe, probably. But when? If my recall is right, most likely far off.  Long after any problems like sea-levels from existing, ongoing, man-made warming. That we can tackle.

      You don’t need to take my word for any of this. All the analsysis and summaries are readily available on the IPCC site.  Check for yourselves. It’s really pointless to ignore a good source.

      Its even more pointless to claim that every one has moved on, that every “knows” its wrong.  The USA is introduced its latest ETS - another cap and trade variant - into Congress for debate in the Senate in the last week or so.

      Global warming is here now. We do still have some time in hand to fix our part in it and keep the rise and its effects manageable. You can be sure of one other thing. In the end, we will have an ETS or CPRS of one kind or another, whichever Party is in government. However much you say it isn’t so, the majority of us want something done, now.

      IPCC site publications page. Online copies free.
      http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/publications_and_data.htm

    • Pex says:

      08:32pm | 19/05/10

      Hey Don.  Would you mind posting the link to the referndum results that show a ‘majority’ of us want something done. Would be great to know what the ‘something’ was that we voted for if you have that information available. Cheers.

    • Garth Godsman says:

      08:41pm | 19/05/10

      It’s always amusing to see people refer to the IPCC as if it was still a credible source.

      What we know now is that it is no longer an honest broker of the best available peer-reviewed science, but a biased evangelist for the theory of catastrophic man-made climate change.

      When you say “IPCC 4” I assume you mean the 4th assessment report. Well, you might want to check to see the nature of some of the “science” cited in it.

      It’s all supposed to be from reputable peer-reviewed journals, but turns out a lot of it isn’t.

      In one instance it even cites an anecdote from a popular magazine for rock climbers as if it were a scientific paper!

      You are going to have to do better than make that particular appeal to authority.

    • David C says:

      10:13pm | 19/05/10

      and the IPCC wll tell you there is low confidence in their ability to predict the behaviour of clouds

    • Don Clark says:

      07:57am | 20/05/10

      Not across earlier threads? Not across current polls, either?

      Feb 2010 Nielsen poll found support for emissions trading scheme (ETS) at 56 per cent, see SMH reports of the time.  Previously cited by others on The Punch.

      Currently, the May 2010 Nielsen survey found 58% support for an ETS for Australia.  See at Crikey
      Do you support or oppose an Emissions Trading Scheme for Australia?
      http://blogs.crikey.com.au/pollytics/2010/05/10/nielsen-ets-and-trust/

      Not the only survey in town, but one of the better. Lowy also showed support,  the details of the terms you’ll need to look up for yourself.

      Footnote: Trying to put words into my mouth to make your point, makes you look like a smart aleck trying to mislead.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      06:18pm | 19/05/10

      Even if AGW was a complete hoax (and there is reasonable evidence to suggest that it isn’t), it would be in the national interest to reduce dependence upon oil.

    • PB says:

      06:22pm | 19/05/10

      I actually agree that there is some kind of Global warming. But if we look back through the records of the day the scientific community thought we were going into another iceage in the 1970’s. Of course the temperatures are going to rise from these times!

    • Gavin says:

      06:27pm | 19/05/10

      Does it all realy matter??
      The world will end one day. Maybe in our lifetime, maybe not.
      Everything that has a begining has an ending.
      Anyone who denies that fact is a true denialist.
      Excuse me while I take the Q7(petrol) out to get some milk, bread and beer, way to cold to be riding the pushbike tonight!!

    • iReporter says:

      07:06pm | 19/05/10

      climate change is a good idea to raise TAX, let us call it ETS by Kevin Rudd

    • iansand says:

      08:49pm | 19/05/10

      Plant a few trees and get a carbon credit that you can sell.  I look forward to the trade in tax deductions.

      It always seems odd to me that champions of free markets object to the creation of a new market.  These are the guys that created markets in derivatives of derivatives of derivatives.  I have a sneaking suspicion that their objections are based in something other than a love of market forces.

    • persephone says:

      10:04pm | 19/05/10

      Good lord - I thought Ruddy was clever, but not that clever!!

      So - about forty years ago - Rudd started planting the idea of climate change in people’s minds, just so that when he grew up and became PM, he could introduce a tax!

      Alas, he failed to think it through, introducing an ETS that actually put more money in people’s pockets than it took out.

      Funny, given the brilliance of the overall idea.

    • The Guardian says:

      10:21pm | 19/05/10

      oh the wit iReporter!

    • manOnClaphamOmnibus says:

      03:14am | 20/05/10

      Is that a ‘bignewtax’? Seriously that line is getting a little tired.

      A denialist:... just stop whining and tell me the problem is fixed so I can buy my beach house so it doesn’t get washed away, drive my V8 as much as I want and burn up all the oil.. stuff my grandkids or how screwed the world will be when I’m retired.

    • Tony H says:

      07:17pm | 19/05/10

      It seems the temperature on Mars is also climbing:
      http://www.nasa.gov/centers/ames/research/2007/marswarming.html

      NASA seem to think it’s caused by solar activity but we all know its carbon emissions, I hope the Martian government has a global income redistribution scheme ready to tackle “climate change”. lol.

    • whitenoise says:

      09:41pm | 19/05/10

      I’m nearly 50 and no matter what medical science comes up with it’s very unlikely that I will be here 100 years from now, when the realistic predictions (guesses) suggest a 2C increase in temperature and a one metre rise in sea levels. SO WHAT!! Get over yourselves!!

    • Samantha says:

      10:39pm | 19/05/10

      Yep its started again…we can’t get the day to day weather forecasts correct and we think we can claim global warming. The bias reporting shown by the media is so hypocritical.  They seriously need to teach these people how to do their basic job and that is report all facts from both sides. Give all sides equal reporting time. Until this happens all this is just the same rehashed stories which the media is so good at. I have made the effort to research all sides and until such time as all scientists (not weather men, greenies and PC guilt ridden people) can come to an agreement this is just another venture to make money - the stock brokers are just hanging out for it!!
      and pleeaasse:
      1. no more actors/singers telling us how to think on this subject!!!
      2. no more nobel prize presentations for a person giving a powerpont presentation.

    • Greg says:

      10:45pm | 19/05/10

      But does anyone really care?  I don’t.
      When will I care?  When it hits my hip pocket.
      As a power company recently said,  Coal is the most effective source of power - unless a carbon tax comes in. 
      Remember Earth Hour?  I am not really a participant.  I thought about it the other night.  I was switching off all the lights with incandescent globes (expensive).  If they called it ‘Wallet Hour’  I might be a bit keener.

      No-one is going to do too much until it is cheaper to change their ways

    • Tom says:

      01:20am | 20/05/10

      You sad narcissistic man - evidently, the future generations of our planet are not your concern. I am glad your view is in the minority.

      To everyone with children, grand children and anyone who wants to leave this planet with any sense of morality - I apologise for Greg.

    • iansand says:

      03:17pm | 20/05/10

      So you support an ETS?

    • freeman says:

      10:53pm | 19/05/10

      To Persephone, Don Clarke and other AGW worshippers

      If you really believe that AGW is real and as dire as Al Gore claims,
      ask yourself these questions.

      1) Why does AGW have a left leaning progressive following? after all,
      Science is science. the conservative governments around the world weren’t
      sceptical of the effects of the Y2K bug or CFC’s had on the ozone layer were they?
      2) Why aren’t you AGW worshippers pushing for Australia to switch to nuclear power? it’s a sure way to drastically reduce our carbon output and the rest of the world already has it.
      3) Why is there no genuine passion in people’s arguments telling us the world is going to end. why do they take a business like approach.
      4) why is the ETS the right action to take? Why did it have to be a tax
      instead of carbon regulation? I think the ETS is dodgey and there were clearly people who would benefit from it which is why some were pushing for it.
      5) why was kevin Rudd hurried to set a firm emmissions target while Climate institutes around the world kept making bigger and bigger exaggerations about the amount of carbon reductions we needed to make?
      6) how is it that we could avoid catastrophic climate change by a 5% reduction in emissions? that means we would still be pumping out 95% of emmissions! if mankind contributes only 2.5% of global carbon output
      then a 5% reduction would amount something like 0.12% in total global carbon output. how does that save the world? natural carbon outputs fluctuate much more than this! isn’t it a bit convenient that the reductions that climate scientists tell us we need to make are neatly achievable as
      if they’re not aiming too high or too low. if agw was already underway surely
      we’d need to like, stop emitting carbon altogether?
      7) why are all of the effects of climate change climate scientists are predicting catastrophic with no positive changes when the climate changes all the time? does that mean if it gets cooler everything will get better?

      AGW Sceptics are sceptics because we couldn’t accept the ludicrous argument being put to us. Somehow with natural carbon outputs fluctuating
      greatly (and mankind adding a small amount of carbon to that) we were supposed to beleive that some scientists could claim with certainty that drastic climate change would result in the near future. All this with the lefties in the background looking at how it could help their agenda.

      Just a warning to those who swallowed the “world is ending” argument.
      if you get a letter from Nigeria asking for your bank details, don’t respond.
      research into AGW started off as a legitimate science but lost it’s way as
      some saw it as a tool for their own means.
      I’m quite happy for their to be more debate and research into the effects mankind has on the atmosphere and environment, as long as it’s met with reasonable scrutiny this time. by all means lets stop wasting the worlds
      natural resources and polluting if it’s not necessary. but the agw scam went too far

    • Mic says:

      01:27am | 20/05/10

      I don’t doubt that the data is correct. The world is warming. Carbon locked up for millions of years is being dumped into the atmosphere at a ferocious rate. The reason we have not seen the full effect of this is because the ocean is acting as a buffer. As rising acidity shows, this will not continue indefinitely.  On the other hand,  I am glad climate gate happened, cause it shut up those insufferable smug * in government and took away power from toga wearing greenies who reach for the petroleum manufactured pharmaceuticals to cure their crotch rot.

    • Don Clark says:

      08:54am | 20/05/10

      I’ll make a couple of brief points, as presumably “Don Clarke” is supposed to be me.

      I’ve not raised Al Gore, nor any of his material or views. Anywhere.

      I’ve not claimed “the world is ending”. Anywhere. Nor does the IPCC work.

      5% target:
      Its a starting point, only.  Please don’t make wild exaggerations. We need to start reductions. We don’t need to stop emitting CO2 etc altogether right now. The whole point of Stern, Garnaut, IPCC & etc work is to find effective gradual change rates that are practical, by practical market methods. One such target is to aim for a target of 50% CO2 emission reduction by 2050. There will still be effects on temperature and sea level at that rate. The IPCC work continues to refine, monitor and extned info on the levels of CO2, temperature and sea level etc effects. 

      Why an ETS:
      A cap & trade ETS is one of several well-reocgnised ways of addressing CO2 etc emissions. The other front runner is a straight carbon tax.  You can look at Stern, or Garnaut, for the arguments for and against each.  Opinion on which is better is about evenly divided, depending pretty much on what sort of economics you like, dry or wet.  The US is looking at a cap n trade scheme, its before the Senate now.

      As you chose sneering insult as the base for your remarks, I’ve chosen to ignore most of them, replying politely only on the most obviously wrong points, incl reduction targets and ETS v Carbon Tax.

      This is a difficult and important issue, whatever your politics. A loud opinion, loaded with sneer and insult, won’t wash. An informed opinion may help. If you want to know more about the whys and hows of climate change, instead of peddling insult and inaccuracy,  its probably past time you set about doing some of the basic work for yourself.

      Some useful reading
      Stern/Economics of Climate Change http://www.occ.gov.uk/activities/stern.htm
      Garnaut/Climate Change Review
      http://www.garnautreview.org.au/domino/Web_Notes/Garnaut/garnautweb.html
      IPCC Reports
      http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/publications_and_data.htm

      Then maybe try comparing some of these with say Plimer and Monckton. Eyebrow raising, to say the least. Amazing how those two get away with it.

    • persephone says:

      10:10am | 20/05/10

      1. Maggie Thatcher was one of the first supporters for action on climate change. That well known commie leftist pinko, Angela Merkel, supports action on climate change. The newly elected conservative UK PM, David Cameron, supports action on climate change.

      I could go on. It’s only the Republicans in the US and their followers here who seriously oppose it.

      2. Jury’s still out. Would take 20 years to establish on the scale necessary and economically an ETS would give you more bang for your buck.

      3. Rather leave the hysteria to the other side. But also, we’re nice and rational over here. The world isn’t going to end.

      Human beings are going to be in a big lot of trouble, yes, but the worst I predict is not the world ending or the extinction of our species but a collapse of civilisation.

      4. You’d have to read the Stern and Garnaut reports, both of which looked at a range of options and concluded that an ETS was the most effective course of action. I tend to trust experts.

      An ETS puts a price on carbon as well as imposing a carbon cap. Companies obviously want to minimise costs and maximise profits, so using good old market forces, they will look at ways of minimising their carbon costs.

      5. He hasn’t set a firm emissions target, he has set a minimum target and made it fclear it’s flexible. Targets are good things to have, because you can measure achievement against them, but there’s no reason why you can’t exceed them.

      6. We can’t avoid climate change, we can minimise its effects. No one advocating 5% says it will stop climate change, but that it will slow it so that we ‘only’ have a rise of 2 degrees.

      It’d be great if we could do more more quickly but it’s hard enough getting an agreement to achieve the current target.

      It’d be great if we could stop emitting carbon altogether, but we would need global agreement for that to happen.

      7. No, scientists are predicting positve outcomes as well, but these need to be prepared for if we are to take advantage of them.

      Our present civilisation has been based around the climatic conditions of the last few thousand years. Global warming is changing these.

      AGW sceptics are sceptics because they accept what they are told by certain sources without question, which actually isn’t scepticism at all.

      It isn’t a ‘lefty’ issue in most of the world, as I have pointed out above. In the rest of the world, it’s the educated, informed and intelligent, who understand science, who advocate for action on climate change. This includes many prominent right wingers - as pointed out above - because they understand and accept the facts.

    • Freeman says:

      11:16am | 20/05/10

      Mic,
      I’m not so willing to just accept the data,
      It’s provided by scientest that need to find a postive result. consider this, if climate scientists were to find that man had little to no effect on the enviroment, why would they publish such results? it would mean that they would get no further funding and would be out of a job. Not saying that we disregard all their findings, just saying that their findings need reasonable scrutiny.
      And if AGW is happening, the ETS won’t do anything to stop it. what we would need is serious carbon regulation. Ruddy claimed that the ETS is the only way to fight AGW. while business and middle class would be slugged Ruddy would use this tax’d money to provide handouts to the
      low income earners so they were actually better off under an ETS? sounds like a socialist plan more than a stategy to fight climate change.

    • Steely Dan says:

      03:18pm | 20/05/10

      @ Freeman
      “consider this, if climate scientists were to find that man had little to no effect on the enviroment, why would they publish such results? it would mean that they would get no further funding and would be out of a job.”
      You are aware that climate scientists have been around a lot longer than the theory of global warming, right? They are climate scientists, not global-warming-ologists.  And if a respected climate scientist did find that man had little to no effect, they’d be rich.  Mind-bogglingly rich.  There’s more than a few companies in the energy, transport and forestry sectors who would pay big, big bucks to jet this scientist around the world with a powerpoint presentation and a labcoat.

      This is why I don’t understand the ‘scientists are conspiring’ crowd.  If I was part of this alleged cabal of scientists who are apparently all out to commit massive fraud, I’d do it the other way round.  I’d have said that we need to drastically increase our CO2 emissions to cool the earth.  Who holds all the cash, the tiny renewable energy sector, or BP et al?

    • Freeman says:

      05:08pm | 20/05/10

      Steely Dan, yes, there has been climate scientist around for some time, No doubt long before maggie thatcher hatched her
      bogus AGW story to combat the coal miners union. But they are receiving huge amounts of new funding with no doubt record
      numbers of new scientists in a field who would be surplus to requirement if climate science no longer was a hot topic.

      Perse,
      so some conservative leaders “say” they encourage action on climate change, so does tony abbott! Believe it when they actually
      implement an ETS (which if they do, won’t be the scam that kevin rudd was trying to introduce where business’s got tax’d
      and then compensated for costs incurred by the tax if they made enough noise) to claim that they’re AGW advocates would be a furphy.
      Thatcher used AGW as a dodgy argument whilst trying to introduce nuclear power to combat the stronghold the coal mining union
      union had over the UK. Once that battle was over she never mentioned it again.

      Yes, there is progressive (and conflicting)  reduction targets made all around the world. As much as 50% by 2050 by some. That still only
      equates to like 1% of total global carbon output by 2050 worldwide by the most alarmist estimates. At the same time we’re being told that
      AGW is already underway. If that were true then 2050 would be too late and scientists would be calling for these cuts right now.

      Don
      The IPCC was one of a few bodies claiming melting glaciers, sea level rises of up to 2 meters, more frequent earthquakes and tsunamis
      Were on the way. Sounds pretty apocalyptic to me. Mostly been disproved now anyway.

    • Freeman says:

      06:08pm | 20/05/10

      Steely Dan, yes, there has been climate scientist around for some time, But there are now record numbers of climate scientists receiving huge amounts of new funding in a field where they would be surplus to requirement if climate science no longer was a hot topic.

      Perse,
      so some conservative leaders “say” they encourage action on climate change, so does tony abbott. Believe it when they actually implement an ETS. to claim that they’re AGW advocates would be a furphy. Thatcher used AGW as a dodgy argument whilst trying to introduce nuclear power to combat the stronghold the coal mining union had over the UK. Once that battle was over she never mentioned it again.

      Yes, there are progressive (and conflicting) reduction targets made all around the world. As much as 50% by 2050 by some. That still only equates to like 1% of total global carbon output by 2050 worldwide by the most alarmist estimates. At the same time we’re being told that AGW is already underway. If that were true then 2050 would be too late and scientists would be calling for these cuts right now.  oh but now we’re only trying to limit warming to 2 degrees I hear you say, as if we have that sort of control over the temperature and the science is that definate.
      Don
      The IPCC was one of a few bodies claiming melting glaciers, sea level rises of up to 2 meters, more frequent earthquakes and tsunamis Were on the way. Sounds pretty apocalyptic to me. Mostly been disproved now anyway.

      Oh and my point on the ETS, what I want to know is why is it the ONLY action worth considering? Surely in these early stages we should be Considering all possible solutions? Not just Ruddies tax? But he shouts down any other solution put forward saying “ you can’t have a solution to global warming without a price on carbon” meaning, his tax is the only way.

    • Steely Dan says:

      11:06am | 21/05/10

      @ Freeman
      “… long before maggie thatcher hatched her bogus AGW story to combat the coal miners union.”
      Ah, so Thatcher is the one who invented it all?  Thatcher was PM from 1979 to 1990 – the proposal that CO2 could affect the climate goes back to the 1950s at least.  Maybe Thatcher was only willing to get behind it just to destroy the unions.  It’s possible, and I wouldn’t put it past her.  But that still doesn’t say anything about the validity of the science.

    • freeman says:

      08:29pm | 22/05/10

      Dan,
      if you read my posts again you’ll see I’ve made no statements on the origins of climate science except that it started off as a legitmate science and that it was studied well BEFORE thatcher used it in her argument. The only reason I bothered to mention thatcher was because persephone claimed her as one of the original AGW advocates.

    • Steely Dan says:

      10:02am | 25/05/10

      @ Freeman

      I see.  So you’ll retract the phrase: “maggie thatcher hatched her bogus AGW story”?

    • Captain Col says:

      11:42pm | 19/05/10

      You should be a bit more careful with the headlines.  ‘Warmest ever’ is a bit different to ‘warmest on record’.  The former is definitely a lie.  Temperature reconstructions prove it has been much warmer in times of human civilisation.  Sceptics don’t dispute the globe is warming.  They dispute that humans are causing most of the warming and that this will produce catastrophic consequences.  Report that rather than lakes in Africa.  Where do you want to retire to?  Somewhere warm?  Or on a glacier?

    • ets = scam says:

      12:25am | 20/05/10

      Global warming is a clever manipulation and a big fat global scam.
      Constructed by the UN think tank the Club of Rome back in the 1970’s
      I posted this info earlier in the day and it was of course not published.
      Gee I wonder why??

      “The common enemy of humanity is man.
      In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up
      with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming,
      water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill. All these
      dangers are caused by human intervention, and it is only through
      changed attitudes and behavior that they can be overcome.
      The real enemy then, is humanity itself.”
      - Club of Rome, premier environmental think-tank, consultants to the United Nations

      see green-agenda.com

    • ets = scam says:

      12:28am | 20/05/10

      lies, lies and more lies

      “No matter if the science of global warming is all phony…
      climate change provides the greatest opportunity to
      bring about justice and equality in the world.” - Christine Stewart,
      former Canadian Minister of the Environment

    • Sean McHugh says:

      01:22am | 20/05/10

      persephone says, 02:13pm | 19/05/10:

      “Yep, because we Labor types put our faith in evidence based policy.”

      And by coincidence always arrive at the conclusion that is politically correct.

    • Bill says:

      01:47am | 20/05/10

      Too much skepticism is a bad thing.  I totally rejected the idea of global warming when I first read about it in 1989.  Now I’m not so sure.  Strong arguments have been put forward…and 47 degrees in Melb last Summer ? When has it ever been that hot ? So what happens when we implement measures to stop our wasteful ways and it turns out there wasn’t a problem anyway ?  Well, we’ve saved a lot of resources, instead of being want want want western world robotic consumers.  Maybe we need to wind things down a little. Kick back and enjoy the planet.  For those skeptics…ride a mountain bike into the depths of a magnificient dense bush, pause for a moment and listen to the quiet…and look around…and then tell me you have no responsibility whatsoever into doing something - anything into protecting that environment that sustains your being.  You wouldn’t disregard your fish bowl if there was a potential environmental problem - why not the Earth ?

    • S.L says:

      06:33am | 20/05/10

      Bill the record temparatures you refer too were predicted by Kiwi weather forcaster Ken Ring a few years ago. You will find it was just an unusual set of circumstances.

    • crux says:

      03:54pm | 20/05/10

      Too right !  Good call, Bill.
      Who cares who’s to blame when the planet dies. Human or not, it;s getting hot.

    • Mr Grey says:

      02:08am | 20/05/10

      year-to-year inconsistencies cut both ways, and that instruments near developed spots actually more often read too cool rather than too hot. Researchers say every effort has been made to adjust for errors, and that errors one way or the other at individual stations basically cancel each other out, leaving the averages correct.————-
      That means as we all suspect. They don’t know and are guessing then putting their slant on it. Developed spots read too cool for their liking so they claim them to be faulty readings and cancel out other real reading with them. The northern part of the world had one of its coldest winters this year does that mean we are in global freezing. And don’t bother with the fanciful idea that is an aspect of global warming because that would be having a bob each way. No credibility and now we have the government spending 30 million dollars to convince us its true. I want my money back!

    • Mike says:

      07:57am | 20/05/10

      .................So…. it has been COOLING for the last 130 years!

    • Rex says:

      08:32am | 20/05/10

      Funny isn’t it that the sceptics, who when one looks deeply almost always have some vested interest in us ignoring climate change, talk everyone listens. Yet when the ones with the hard facts talk they are howled down.
      The question people should be asking themselves is who are the sceptics or who stands behind them?

    • Garth Godsman says:

      05:05pm | 20/05/10

      Er Rex, um, do you want to have a go trying to make a rational argument using these um, “hard facts,” you speak of?

    • coopies says:

      09:19am | 20/05/10

      So April’s temp pushed the last year over the “hottest” line. How hot was the year if we measured April 09 to March 10?

    • Sparta says:

      09:50am | 20/05/10

      My god…...Evidence…Hmm…Ok, answer this one…4.5 billion years, more than 5 ice ages and warming without man; why? Man, no man we still have warming and cooling but because of 150 yrs of “records” we must now accept “man” is the cause? Give me a break….How about study design or the scientific method? Lets use climate models constructed by humans to measure human involvement. A computer program does what and how? Can anybody say conflict of interest? It is very easy to rip up the “we are melting” groups “theory” even if we are not allowed to “replicate” it in any meaningful way. I am afraid when you have thousands of scientists who’s “grant” funding is tied to promoting this “theory” it becomes even more shady…....Fine we have heating now PROVE humans are the cause…....

    • David says:

      09:51am | 20/05/10

      The question is not about climate change, the earth has been heating up for 20,000 years.  The challange is against scientists extrapolating that this will continue never ending and it was caused by man kind.  There is scientific evidence that proves climate changes in cycles and the earth was just as hot before the last ice age.  The volcano in iceland shows, that mother nature is far better at climate change than mankind.  Finally, claims that Australia is one of the worst polluters, really questions how much of the science is fiction or fact.  I am for reducing pollution and better use of our resources, but against the lunacy of clamping down carbon emmissions at all cost, it is not justified.

    • Get real says:

      10:26am | 20/05/10

      My question is if there is global warming tell those who live in Europe and hod one of the coldest winters in many years and me thinks its all goes in cycles and if the world was warm9ing as they say why are w not getting hotter temperatures every year and still had the hottest days over 100 years ago

    • Saskia says:

      11:21am | 20/05/10

      The proof that man is the major factor in heating up the globe is just simply not there and never has been.

      Climate changes naturally… always has done - we all know that. 
      AGW is simply not proven and is a just an obscure theory.

      AGW fanatics - just let it go.  There is no shame in thinking something was correct when it wasn’t.  No one will judge you.  Especially when the data was faked and corrupted as it was by ‘interested’ parties.  On the contrary we will all have more respect for you if you have the integrity to change you mind and accept the facts are just not there.

      Put your energies into practical help for the planet rather than lashing out at ‘skeptics’ and trying to find trying to prove the unprovable.

    • Richard Ward says:

      11:29am | 20/05/10

      All those factories that thawed out the world after the last 4 ice ages! What, there were no man made factories and the planet heated up a dozen or more degrees by its self.  So no man made global warming, just like NOW.

    • John says:

      12:27pm | 20/05/10

      It is simple guys; climate does in fact change and has done so for millioms of years. To deny this is silly. But are we to believe that this climate change is solely man made? No! We may have a part in it and even a part to play to help us survive but! There is little we can do to prevent mother nature doing her job. I remember back in my school days being told how the earth was always moving closer to the sun and would eventually be engulfed. Surely this must have an effect on our climate and cause it to change.

    • David says:

      12:40pm | 20/05/10

      Last year the hottest ever, I find that rather hard to believe when I cast my mind back to the freezing condition in Europe and USA, to name just the two places that received plenty of publicity. Al Gore just bought himself a luxury multi-million dollar ‘beachside’ property, so it would seem he doesn’t think sea levels are going to rise substantially which contradicts his money making fear mongering campaign. That volcano in Iceland is spewing out more greenhouse gases in a week than man has done in their existence.
      No, once again this is another scam designed to separate the ordinary people from their money.
      Climate change is real, there is no doubt about it, Earth history proves it, but is it man-made? The facts certainly don’t indicate that is the case.

    • Crux says:

      02:51pm | 20/05/10

      The facts don’t indicate ? What facts have you presented ?
      Scientific statistics or some egotist casting his mind back ?
      I know which source I’ll believe.
      When the planet is a dried up husk at least we’ll be able to argue over whether it was our fault or not. Global warming is real, no matter the cause. People need a survival strategy , not a side to take.

    • Garth Godsman says:

      04:46pm | 20/05/10

      @Crux

      “When the planet is a dried up husk at least we’ll be able to argue over whether it was our fault or not.”

      Except, as we know from geology, when the planet gets warmer, it also gets wetter.

      Windblown marine sediments of terristrial origin indicate cooler and thus drier periods.

    • David says:

      10:57pm | 20/05/10

      Crux, try to be rational.

    • frank says:

      12:50pm | 20/05/10

      So…the science is settled? Again?

    • Barrington says:

      01:07pm | 20/05/10

      persephone says: 08:52pm | 19/05/10

      “..... but I’m not trawling back for the sake of absolute accuracy.”

      Why let accuracy get in the way of what you want to believe to be true eh?

    • Pete says:

      01:18pm | 20/05/10

      If the globe is warming and only IF, where is the proof that us terrible humans are doing it ?  it may be due to a normal trend that comes and goes, if it is the warmest in 135 years then perhaps it has been that warm before…and yes that would have been before industrialisation, so no matter what the boffins say they cannot prove it, anyhow Australia WILL be run by foolish panic merchants (read Labor) to “penalise” us for having the hide to use electricity especially when we produce such a minute amount of the so-called pollutant compared to the rest of the world….world leaders…I don’t think so

    • crux says:

      02:57pm | 20/05/10

      If GW is a normal trend, we all die anyway. Look for solutions rather than trying to score cheap political points. You argue that people may not be causing it, and then that Australia produces less of the stuff that does cause it.
      Credibility = zero

    • Frustrated Geo says:

      01:32pm | 20/05/10

      Hottest ever? Well that is a misleading headline.

      It is the hottest in 131 years. In a planet that is roughly 4.6 billion years old is 131 years really a valid indicator of trend?

    • Ken of Sydney says:

      01:59pm | 20/05/10

      Who is going to pay the carbon tax on all of the latest volcanic eruptions and earthquakes? Surely the amount of emitted Co2 is massive from these events.

    • Riggers says:

      02:02pm | 20/05/10

      “If you look at one of the ‘usual suspects’ in global warming - sun activity - we should actually be experiencing a decline in temperatures.”

      Wrong! Decreased solar activity (sunspots), is linked to a decrease in solar wind. This decrease in solar wind reduces cloud formation, thus warming the planet.

    • Steely Dan says:

      02:51pm | 20/05/10

      @ Riggers

      “Decreased solar activity (sunspots), is linked to a decrease in solar wind. This decrease in solar wind reduces cloud formation, thus warming the planet.”
      ... which clashes with the former correlation (it ended in the 70s) between increased solar activity and temperature increase, which is what sparked the whole hypothesis in the first place.

    • Garth Godsman says:

      04:53pm | 20/05/10

      @Steely Dan

      “... which clashes with the former correlation (it ended in the 70s) between increased solar activity and temperature increase”

      I think you are referring to the notorious Lockwood & Froehlich paper, which started out as an attempt to disprove any solar influence on global temperatures and ended up having to admit that yes, for the best part of the 20th Century it was in fact the Sun and not carbon dioxide that best explained the warming trend observed.

      But then, to try and save face, they engaged in a bit of statistical jiggery-pokery to try and show that somehow this had magically stopped by the 1970s.

      Politicised pseudo-science at its worst.

    • Steely Dan says:

      11:18am | 21/05/10

      @ Garth Goldsman

      Got a source that says that solar activity hasn’t dropped off?

    • Garth Godsman says:

      04:42pm | 23/05/10

      @Steely Dan

      Who said solar activity hadn’t dropped off?

      Yet again, you miss the point wink

    • Steely Dan says:

      12:34pm | 24/05/10

      @ Garth

      So you don’t have an issue with anyone saying that there is no correlation between solar activity and global warming?

    • down to earth says:

      02:47pm | 20/05/10

      Very sorry but plain and simple, I just flat out don’t believe it. The northern hemisphere has had the worst summers and the coldest three winters in living memory with lots of publicity and now they expect us to believe it was really a heatwave? get out. As a government agency I do believe that NASA will say what it is told to say period.

    • Arthur George Manche' says:

      03:00pm | 20/05/10

      So it is proof of global warming !! Yes Lake Tanganika is the hottest in 1500 years. Pray, please inform this sceptic, who took the temperature of the lake 1500 years ago, what instruments were use to measure the temperature, and where is it recorded. !! Until my questions are answered truthfully, I will just take the statement with a “pinch of salt”. Scientists today, make statements they themselves cannot prove. Figures of billions of years ago are quoted liberally, without any proof or justification.
      Meanwhile I am more concerned with the closure of the business run as Paterson’s Cakes, in Windsor, Victoria, after being in business for over 90 years, than I am with losing a few lizards.  Nature has always taken care of itself and new lizards will appear, by evolution, but my favourite cake shop will not be there.  And it is not closing because of climate change !! Let us stop kidding ourselves, Climate change has been going on from time immemorial, and keeps going till the end of time, no matter what man does or does not do !! The trouble with science, is a lot of “hot air”. !!

    • TL says:

      03:51pm | 20/05/10

      Ok no one crucify for what I am about to say, I haven’t read all the posts as there are soooo many.

      Let me first say I am not a scientist, I freely admit that and I have the utmost respect for them.

      Having said that however how do we know that the climate is not just on a schedule and this type of weather happens every 15 thousand years as an example? Monday comes around once a week, December once a year who’s to say that’s not what is happening? Vulcanos erupt on a schedule that we just don’t understand what’s to say we just don’t understand what is happening as our data and ways of measuring don’t go back to when the earth first began?

      A lot of scientific ‘evidence’ is untested hypothesis eg Loop Quantum Gravity vs String Theory. it is something we don’t yet know without more emperical evidence which we may not get for a few more thousand years.

      ‘scientists’ used to believe that the earth was flat until someone took a boat ride.

      I am not trying to dismiss others views or opinions this is just mine and what I think and I am willing to say ok I was wrong if indeed it is proven 100% that the earth is not just on a schedule, who else is willing to do the same?

    • James says:

      04:42pm | 20/05/10

      I wonder what would be said if next year was statistically the coldest on known record…?

      I think believers and deniers in the science world are both right and both wrong…. They seem to be studying different data which on it’s own would conveniently provide the answers for those who want the specific results shown. There is some merit to the fact that the climate is changing. However, I would have to query if part of this argument is to create a new industry and a new way to make money and a major marketing push or if the evidence being presented is in fact 100% correct after considering ALL the facts. (Consider that Al Gore who brought this to the atention of the majority of the global population now runs a company profiting from climate change prevention). The question is if 6 billion people are enough to cause such massive climatic changes or if they would have happened even if we weren’t around to see it (in which case, we wouldn’t care anyway)...

    • Garth Godsman says:

      05:12pm | 20/05/10

      @Mic 12:27am | 20/05/10

      “The reason we have not seen the full effect of this is because the ocean is acting as a buffer. As rising acidity shows, this will not continue indefinitely.”

      The worlds oceans almost without exception through time, and even when atmospheric levels of carbon dioxide were much higher than today, have been alkaline.

      They remain alkaline today. Something that is alkaline cannot be acidifying at the same time.

      Maybe - maybe - the oceans are a little less alkaline than they were, but they remain alkaline.

    • Garth Godsman says:

      05:22pm | 20/05/10

      @persephone

      Okay, I’ll repeat myself - the Medieval Warm Period, (and, to repeat myself again, even Phil Jones on the BBC conceded that it may well have been a global event - yet again you state as fact something that is still not fully understood or agreed), the Roman Climate Optimum and the Holocene Climate Optimum.

      All three of these were accepted by the IPCC prior to the 3rd assessment report, when they tried to make the MWP disappear.

      The problem is not your general statements, but where you mistakenly assert as accepted facts things that are not so.

    • Don Clark says:

      05:35pm | 20/05/10

      As far back as Classical Greece, the idea of the Earth as a sphere was already current and Eratosthenes had soon found a way by observation to make a really very fair estimate of the Earth’s radius.

      It’s true that the Church of Rome, the biggest vested interest of the day, took exception to the idea of the Earth as a globe revolving around the Sun. Not for scientific reasons at all, but for self -interest, under the cover of dogma. But it wasn’t the Globe idea the Church didn’t like - it was the just the notion of it revolving round the Sun they disliked.

      Meanwhile, practical sailors and merchants already knew, from plain sailing down the African coast, that the Earth was a globe. Ships and coastlines, obligingly, predictably sinking below and rising above a sea horizon as they sailed out and back - as much of a give-away as the shape of the moon in all its phases. Sailors: good observers and fair practical navigators, by necessity. For survival and profit!

      It didn’t take long for great powers (incl the Church) to see that much profit and interest was to be found in looking ever further abroad. By 1494 then, the Church had the Treaty of Tordesillas, dividing the globe in two for Spain and Portugal.

      What’s my point? Well, it is closely related to the run of much of this thread. It’s all too easy to argue by flat assertion. But once tested by evidence, simple claims often don’t hold up. Not only that, its often rich, powerful vested interests, who’d like things left just the way they are, who run the noisiest campaigns against mounting bodies of evidence.

      Sounds familiar, eh. Not unlike like the Tobacco mob. And the Asbestos mob. So with man-made global warming. It’s up to climate scientists and ordinary folk, with a bit of curiosity, to get ‘emselves better informed, rather than repeating the myths peddled by self-interested opponents.

      Myths, yep, I said myths. Why? Well, to quote TL, and an earlier poster, “a consensus of scientists believed the Earth was flat” it actually turns out to be quite false. Not even the biggest vested interest of the day thought that. It is in fact a myth, and of really quite recent origin.

      There are plenty of very sound references explaining how this myth of supposed scientific belief in Flat Earth came to be. For once, a reasonable starting place would be Wikipedia:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_Flat_Earth

      Now, if TL wants to know more about man made climate change, I guess he could start here:

      IPCC Fourth Assessment Report: Climate Change 2007: Summary for Policy Makers -

      Observed changes in climate and their effects
      http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/syr/en/spms1.html

      Causes of change
      http://www.ipcc.ch/publications_and_data/ar4/syr/en/spms2.html

    • Garth Godsman says:

      06:47pm | 20/05/10

      What’s your point? Well, after a long and boringly discursive post I suppose one answer would be - who knows?

      Other than to play a desperate game of guilt by association to mask the fact that you appear unable to marshall any relevant evidence to support your belief.

      And no, providing links does not constitute an argument.

    • Don Clark says:

      08:36pm | 20/05/10

      TL at 02:51pm | 20/05/10 politely raised several questions about the how and why of global warming. He based them on the idea that “scientists’ used to believe that the earth was flat”.

      My point was to politely dispose of that idea - it is simply a myth. It’s not the first time it’s been given a run in this thread, but it is a myth. 

      As for TLs questions on the how & why,  I chose to offer two good summary references - and then leave it to him (or others for that matter)  to explore and make up his own mind.

      My own views on global warming have been put elsewhere on this and other threads. All presented politely and constructively.  I usually include sources or additional references - so that people who wish to can assess for themselves.

    • Ando says:

      07:05pm | 20/05/10

      If NASA “faked” the moon landing, did they fake this data too?  Did anyone check if the shadows cast by the report appeared misleading?

      What is more amazing, is how many people love taking credit for potentially killing the planet.  It seems so big-headed, when natural theories such as geothermal underground activity get brushed aside because humans are so full of themselves.

      I’m not denying that climate is changing.  I’m simply against siding with ideas that result in profiteering by the rich whilst they utilise a “save the planet” banner.  Its as uncool as global warming.

      If scams such as the ETS turn out to be just another bank-sponsered ploy of expanding poverty -and we’ve all heard that electricity costs will head that way- where is the money going to come from then to battle the next theory of hot air? 

      Lets just hope that the fraudsters don’t use all this money gained from climate change grants and schemes to build escape pods for people who know that this is an unavoidable situation no matter what you believe is causing it.

    • B says:

      07:40pm | 20/05/10

      Plain old socialist agenda.  All the Communists that fled when the Iron Curtain fell found a new calling “Enviromentalists”.

      So easy to see the social manipulation that is created by these Church of Climatology members.  Its like a Religion, a cancer.  Very difficult to get rid off.

      The reds have switched their shirts for Green.  Be careful and watch out.

    • Carl says:

      07:44pm | 20/05/10

      Its all about the money.. You need to stop debating these issues that the UN keeps throwing out there, and start looking behind at who these people are and what they stand for… Then make an informed decision about why they are saying these things and what they have to gain out of any change to the worlds ways of doing things. There is a great book called THE THEORY OF LIVEVOLUTION, BY ROBERT ROSSELLI. It gives a great insight into the UN, the CFR, the international bankers and power elite.

    • Jerry Packer says:

      08:29pm | 20/05/10

      Who cares about global warming even if it is true! From where I come from no one cares about global warming. We are only interestd in self endulgences and by the time we have lived it up and died; who cares it wont affect us we will be dead; even if temperatures get 20 degrees higher; we dont care; we are selfish. Besides in the world we were brought up in we were told to consume as much as we can make people feel insecure and take advantage of them, look at all this advertising and the way we teach each other to behave. We were told to make as much money as we possibly can and rub our wealth in others noses and just consume to the max. We dont know any better we just know consume consume consume and dont worry about tomorrow so dont tell us to think any other way; we grew up this way and know no other way!  Where do these so called people that have morales and worry about climate change come from? Where have they been because most people we know only know to live and consume as if there were no tomorrow. Gordon Gekko is well and truely alive where we come from.

    • Anthony says:

      10:15pm | 20/05/10

      A town I lived in,in rural N.S.W 20 years ago used to experience much hotter summers and for longer periods than it has in the last 15 years,even my tasmanian wife comments that summers on the mainland in this area where I met her are much cooler now than they were back then.
      I constantly read research from both sides of the debate and so far the pro-global warming theorists have not supplied one iota of compelling evidence to convince me of it’s actuality,they do remind me a lot of the doomsday maniacs running around in 2000 screaming about y2k and the idiots now screaming about 2012,either way,if it’s real,it’s more likely a natural phase of a changing earth and bugger all we can do to stop it,live for today,for tomorrow you may die.

    • Alastair says:

      08:09am | 21/05/10

      Easy answers to the global warming.

      1) Tell the sun to stop emitting solar flares.

      2) Adapt, or do the dinosaur trip.

    • Mike says:

      11:22am | 21/05/10

      There is no correlation whatsoever between current warming temperatures and solar activity, Alastair. Solar activity is low and has been for quite a while, and is measured precisely by numerous satellites and earth-bound observations. But if you’d done any research on this at all, you would know that already, wouldn’t you?

    • Underwriter says:

      04:08pm | 21/05/10

      Mike, honestly don’t know whether you are right or wrong mate.  However, what I do know is that if it wasn’t for the Sun we wouldn’t be having this debate at all.

    • Don Clark says:

      06:15pm | 27/05/10

      Mike is correct -and its very easily checked.

      We’re in a quite deep solar minimum right now, probably towards the end of this one.

      And the general assessment is that the level of solar activity is not enough to drive either global warming, nor (in the case of an extended minimum) to slow down current warming trends.

      There’s plenty of references about. These’ll do for a starting point: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solar_cycle
      http://solar-center.stanford.edu/sun-on-earth/glob-warm.html

    • Sharnee says:

      09:02am | 21/05/10

      If that picture is a correct representation of surface temperature. Should we be worried that the coldest places on Earth are showing up red and yellow or warm at all?

    • Mike says:

      11:28am | 21/05/10

      OK, I plead, no BEG, for sceptics to actually do some research before they put fingers to keyboard.

      Sharnee, the chart - as with all climate charts/graphs - shows a temperature “anomaly”, not the raw temperatures. Red means it is getting warmer compared to previously. So if somewhere on Earth was -20 degrees average last year, and is -18 degrees average this year, that’s warming, right? Warming = red. Red does not necessarily equal “hot”.

    • Brett says:

      11:23am | 21/05/10

      So if climate change is happening and greenhouse gas is to blame, why aren’t we all (especially in Australia) switching to nuclear energy right now? It eliminates a huge amount of CO2 and fixes our energy crisis!

    • DM says:

      04:20pm | 21/05/10

      one word Chernobyl

    • Underwriter says:

      12:57pm | 21/05/10

      For me, it is not an issue of whether Climate Change is happening or not.  It is and always has.  It is also irrelevant whether the median global temperatures are going up or down.  Both have the potential to be bad.  The question for me is, are we as industrialised humans causing or in anyway contributing to it?  I am not convinced that this question has been satisfactorily answered.  And when you run the numbers on the anthropogenic claim of it all, it just doesn’t seem to stack up.  Do some research on this scary gas they call CO2, which by the way is NOT a pollutant.  How much of it is actually in the atmosphere?  How much of it is actually put there anthropologically?  How much does CO2 actually contribute to the greenhouse effect?  Which greenhouse gas is the most abundant and has the greatest impact on the greenhouse effect?  Once objective people do this type of research, I feel they will come to realise how much of the anthropogenic claim is grossly overstated and in a nutshell arrogant.  I think the debate at the moment is to focused on the consequences of Climate Change as opposed to its causes.  Which for me is putting the cart before the horse.

    • bob says:

      01:14pm | 21/05/10

      Climate change is caused by humans so what? whether or not we could reduce our carbon foot prints or energy bills by doing alot of things. The things we didn’t need is carbon trading or ETS emission trading scheme, we don’t want to pay more for just emission of carbon, because ETS is a scam?! alot of loop holes.

    • Rodger says:

      01:36pm | 21/05/10

      NASAs research is no more corrupt and accurate then the University of East Anglia. If anything it is least correct and has more holes in it. This is just another push by the Globalists to shove their Global Government climate tax down our throats. Global Warming climate bull just another smoke screen in the World Government agenda to destroy state sovereignty.

    • Underwriter says:

      02:40pm | 21/05/10

      Here’s an interesting point.  I just discovered that the atmosphere of Mars is 95.3% Carbon Dioxide.  Yet on the surface at the middle if the day is at least 60 degrees below 0.  You would think with all that CO2 in the atmosphere that the place would be sweltering but low an behold it is not.  Go figure that one!!

    • Steely Dan says:

      04:39pm | 21/05/10

      @ Underwriter

      Well, gee, you’ve got me there.  The fact that it’s 80 million kilometres further away from the sun wouldn’t make any difference.

    • Underwriter says:

      05:14pm | 21/05/10

      @ Steely Dan
      FYI it is not the heat from the Sun that contributes to the Greenhouse Effect but rather light and radiation both of which Mars gets plenty of.  Perhaps not as much as Earth but enough for such large quantities of CO2 to react to.  You need to keep in mind that the temperature in space on the sunny side of the Earth is exactly the same on the dark side of the earth at any given point in time.  So it is definitely not heat from the Sun but like I said light and radiation.

    • Steely Dan says:

      06:00pm | 21/05/10

      @ underwriter

      “FYI it is not the heat from the Sun that contributes to the Greenhouse Effect but rather light and radiation both of which Mars gets plenty of.”
      … but it’s still 80 million miles further away from the sun than earth is, Underwriter.  Greenhouse effects mean very little when we’re examining why one planet is colder than another.

    • Underwriter says:

      12:07pm | 23/05/10

      @ Steely Dan

      What, so you are saying that chemical reactions don’t take place on Mars?  If CO2 is this scary nasty gas that they try and make us believe, then it makes sense that an atmosphere that is 95% CO2 will require much less light and radiation to warm it than a planet whose total CO2 concentration is only 0.038%.  Remember, infrared radiation is infrared radiation.  If Mr Gore is correct in his movie that CO2 traps all this infrared radiation which is causing GW one would expect that a planet with 95% CO2 in the atmosphere would trap all of the radiation it gets which would in turn heat the planet to some degree, but it doesn’t.  Distance from the Sun does not make much difference at all.  Take Jupiter for example; there are areas in/on Jupiter that due to chemical reactions is actually hotter than the Sun.  Oh, but how can that be? Jupiter is another 550 Million kilometres away from the Sun than Mars.  The ABC is currently running a documentary called Voyage to the Planets.  You might want to check it out?  Maybe the fact that the Martian atmosphere is completely devoid of any Water Vapour may have something to do with it.  You know that other greenhouse gas which is the most abundant in Earth’s atmosphere at 0.4% in total atmospheric concentration and 1% in the Troposphere and which is responsible for about 95% of the Greenhouse Effect.  Yeah, that’s right the Greenhouse Gas that the AGW bed wetters never seem to want to talk about.  Oh did I also mention that the total anthropogenic CO2 emissions are less than 4% of all CO2 emissions?  That means that more than 96% of all CO2 in the atmosphere is there NATURALLY.  Like I said in my original post on this blog “And when you run the numbers on the anthropogenic claim of it all, it just doesn’t seem to stack up.”  And they still don’t.

    • Steely Dan says:

      01:20pm | 24/05/10

      @ Underwriter

      “What, so you are saying that chemical reactions don’t take place on Mars?”
      Not at all.  My point is that there are more factors than the atmospheric CO2 content that determine temperature.

      “If Mr Gore is correct… one would expect that a planet with 95% CO2 in the atmosphere would trap all of the radiation it gets which would in turn heat the planet to some degree, but it doesn’t.”
      It doesn’t? From what I understand, it does, to a small degree.  The lack of pressure means that the effect is diminished.

      “Distance from the Sun does not make much difference at all.  Take Jupiter for example; there are areas in/on Jupiter that due to chemical reactions is actually hotter than the Sun.  Oh, but how can that be?”
      I’ll explain it to you. The core (not the surface) is around the same temp as the surface (not the core) of the sun.  This heat is a remnant of the planet’s formation processes, and it is gradually losing this heat.  Jupiter is cooler than earth, though not by a great deal – but the immense pressure helps to hold heat.

      “Yeah, that’s right the Greenhouse Gas that the AGW bed wetters never seem to want to talk about.” 
      Funny, the IPCC will tell you that straight up in their reports.

      “Oh did I also mention that the total anthropogenic CO2 emissions are less than 4% of all CO2 emissions?”
      Common knowledge also.  Interesting factoids, but not something that’s being hidden.

    • Underwriter says:

      03:40pm | 24/05/10

      A Steely Dan

      Ha, ha, ha…now this is starting to become fun.  I think I need to clarify some of my points.

      “My point is that there are more factors than the atmospheric CO2 content that determine temperature.“  Agreed, but the point that I am trying to make is, is that all we ever hear from the bed wetting side of this debate as well as Government is CO2, CO2 and more CO2 as being the sole cause of the problem and it is what we should be focusing on reducing, especially when you look at such things such as the ETS.  The propaganda states that it is all because of man’s increase is CO2 emissions.  Does it not?

      The point I was making with references to Mars and Jupiter were two fold.  Firstly, in the case of Mars it clearly demonstrates that increases in CO2 does not in itself cause increases in temperature and secondly in the case of Jupiter that the distances from the Sun does not correlate to why one planet may be hotter or colder than other.  Thus, because Mars is 80 Million kilometres further away from the Sun than the Earth it not in itself the reason why it is colder.
      ” Funny, the IPCC will tell you that straight up in their reports.”  Yeah, it is funny how Water Vapour is only mentioned 3 times in only the one paragraph in the IPCC Climate Change 2007; Synthesis Report.  Not to mention that they completely discount Water Vapour’s contribution to the Greenhouse Effect, which is an accepted fact.

      “Common knowledge also.  Interesting factoids, but not something that’s being hidden.”  Sorry to burst your bubble on this one but among the general populace this is not common knowledge at all and it is hardly a factoid.  If we are to accept your assertion that man made CO2 emissions is the prime cause of Global Warming/Climate Change (or whatever you’re calling it these days) then how much we emit compared to natural causes is of profound importance and your dismissal of this fact doesn’t change anything but rather illustrates typical bet wetting hysteria and ridicule of anything that does not fit with your agenda.  This is cause and effect 101.  If there was a river that was being heavily polluted by a local township but that it was found that 96% of the pollution came from the local oil refinery for example and the other 4% from residents but there was absolutely nothing at all you could do about the oil refinery, then what impact do you expect to have on solving the problem where the only control you have is over the 4% from residents?  Sweet bugger all, that’s what and that’s exactly the point.

    • Steely Dan says:

      06:59pm | 24/05/10

      @ Underwriter

      “The propaganda states that it is all because of man’s increase is CO2 emissions.  Does it not?”
      It does not. The ‘propaganda’ states that the increase in temperature is largely the result of an increase in all GHGs, CO2 being the main problem.  There are indeed other factors that influence our climate, everyone knows that.  But the issue is that they’re simply not in play at the moment. 

      “Firstly, in the case of Mars it clearly demonstrates that increases in CO2 does not in itself cause increases in temperature”
      It doesn’t demonstrate that at all.  Did you read my post? I explicitly mentioned that my understanding is that Mars’ climate is affected by it’s atmospheric CO2 content.

      “…the distances from the Sun does not correlate to why one planet may be hotter or colder than other.”
      The sun is the primary heat source in our solar system.  The fact that Mars is further away from the sun than we are is an extremely significant factor in its comparative lack of heat.

      “Yeah, it is funny how Water Vapour is only mentioned 3 times in only the one paragraph in the IPCC Climate Change 2007; Synthesis Report.”
      Wouldn’t the fact that they’ve mentioned at least once that water vapour is the largest contributor to the greenhouse effect be enough to say that the IPCC isn’t hiding it?

      “Not to mention that they completely discount Water Vapour’s contribution to the Greenhouse Effect, which is an accepted fact.”
      Really? Here is a direct quote from the IPCC Synthesis Report you just mentioned:
      ‘Feedbacks can amplify or dampen the response to a given forc-
      ing. Direct emission of water vapour (a greenhouse gas) by human
      activities makes a negligible contribution to radiative forcing. How-
      ever, as global average temperature increases, tropospheric water
      vapour concentrations increase and this represents a key positive
      feedback but not a forcing of climate change. Water vapour changes represent the largest feedback affecting equilibrium climate sensitivity and are now better understood than in the TAR.’

      “Sorry to burst your bubble on this one but among the general populace this is not common knowledge at all”
      Alright then, general knowledge for anyone who’s taken a passing glance at a Wikipedia page or better.  It is not being hidden.

      “...how much we emit compared to natural causes is of profound importance and your dismissal of this fact doesn’t change anything…”
      I’m not dismissing it.  I’m saying it’s not being disputed.  I’ll use another river analogy to help you.  Let’s say that the river is being polluted by a stream running through a valley with high concentrations of chemical X.  After millions of years, the river’s ecosystem is then used to a certain level of X in the water.  Then a factory that has X as a by-product starts dumping in the river, contributing 4% of the total X.  The problem isn’t the fact that X is in the water, the problem is that the fish of the river can’t handle the increase in X, and the ecosystem begins to suffer.  The natural environment provides 96% of X, but the factory is providing 100% of the increase.
      Don’t forget that the greenhouse effect is a natural system that keeps earth from being a lot colder than it is.  Without it the global average temperature would be -18C.  4% may not sound like much, but even a 2C change (which is now highly likely) will have massive repercussions for agriculture alone.

    • Garth Godsman says:

      02:41pm | 21/05/10

      @Steely Dan

      “@ Garth Godsman
      “even Phil Jones on the BBC conceded that it may well have been a global event”
      Actually, that’s not what he said at all.”

      Clearly you didn’t bother to read Jones’ interview, (and I’d urge all climate hysterics to read it, because the number of concessions that Jones makes to us sceptics is nothings short of astounding! http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/8511670.stm )

      “There is much debate over whether the Medieval Warm Period was global in extent or not.”

      “Of course, if the MWP was shown to be global in extent and as warm or warmer than today (based on an equivalent coverage over the NH and SH) then obviously the late-20th century warmth would not be unprecedented.”

      So he does indeed concede that that it is still actually an open question as to whether or not the MWP was global in extent and thus, it may well have been.

    • Steely Dan says:

      03:16pm | 21/05/10

      @ Garth Godsman

      Saying that there is debate about whether the MWP was global or not is a ‘concession’?  There is debate about whether astrology can tell the future.  There is debate about whether the Loch Ness monster exists.  by acknowledging this have I just ‘conceded’ that there’s a good chance that astrology might be a legitimate science?

      “...and thus, it may well have been.”
      Plausibility is not probability, Garth.

    • Garth Godsman says:

      04:10pm | 21/05/10

      That’s as mealy-mouthed a response as I’ve seen in a long time!

      Why don’t you just have enough honesty to admit you were wrong?

      You said he didn’t say it, when he actually did.

      That’s the point.

    • Steely Dan says:

      04:53pm | 21/05/10

      @ Garth

      Do you understand the difference between plausibility and probability?  It’s an important one, Garth.  Misrepresenting Jones as ‘admitting’ that the MWP might have been global vs when in reality he said that there was no evidence that it was global (look up the term ‘null hypothesis’) is plainly dishonest, disingenuous or both.

    • acotrel says:

      09:18am | 22/05/10

      It’s just a great big new lie about everything?

    • James says:

      05:01pm | 24/05/10

      If a scientist’s reputation depends on them correctly determining the cause and credibly explaining observable physical phenomena (in a way the conforms with accepted science) and their livelyhood depends on maintaining a reputation for good science, exactly why would scientist lie about human induced global warming again?

    • Eye4anEye says:

      06:37pm | 24/05/10

      I’ve said my piece on this issue last time it came up (like religion/aid/immigration etc it’s a regular staple here) so won’t repeat my point of view and why I have it in detail again.

      I will however say/ask something that amuses me somewhat regarding climate change: why are their always on hot weather news forcasts the following statements….the hottest day on record SINCE (insert date). Which indicates to me that hey it’s a damn hot day but we’ve had hotter (usually from a long time ago as well).

      P.S. Don’t spend money on the issue (if it is an issue) - give it to me and I will contact the flying spaghetti monster from the mother goose/religious thread and it will solve any and all potential problems smile

    • Garth Godsman says:

      11:40pm | 24/05/10

      It’s the Sun, stupid

      “Four years ago, when I first started profiling scientists who were global warming skeptics, I soon learned two things: Solar scientists were overwhelmingly skeptical that humans caused climate change and, overwhelmingly, they were reluctant to go public with their views. Often, they refused to be quoted at all, saying they feared for their funding, or they feared other recriminations from climate scientists in the doomsayer camp. When the skeptics agreed to be quoted at all, they often hedged their statements, to give themselves wiggle room if accused of being a global warming denier. Scant few were outspoken about their skepticism.

      “No longer.”

      http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2010/05/21/its-the-sun-stupid/

    • Don Clark says:

      03:01pm | 27/05/10

      By George, I think he’s got it. At last. 

      “Tony Abbott, who famously declared the “so-called settled science” of climate change to be “crap” has told environmental business leaders he is now “confident ...mankind does make a difference to climate”.

      In a speech to the National Business Leaders Forum on Sustainable Development in Canberra, Mr Abbott repeated his view that natural variations in the climate have been happening since the beginning of time, but added that he also believed humans have influenced recent climatic fluctuations.

      “I am confident, based on the science we have, that mankind does make a difference to climate, almost certainly the impact of humans on the planet extends to climate.” “
      http://www.smh.com.au/national/climate-change-no-longer-crap-abbott-says-man-makes-a-difference-20100527-wg6d.html

      Reaction to this latest Abbott pronouncement will be interesting. And yes, it was a scripted speech.

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