Gays and Jesus: The Gospel According to Elton John

AL says:

03:24pm | 27/02/10

To Eric, 

Mr. or Ms Burns is jealous that he hasn’t been asked to be a part of the commendation.  As they say ‘jealousy is a curse’.  Burns just wants what Molly has.

Andrew Goff says:

04:39pm | 27/02/10

Hi Eric,

You’re wrong, you can. If you see anyone on TV making “heterophobic” remarks, you can indeed complain under exactly the same piece of legislation that this nut job has.

Contrary to what you have said, the law specifically DOES protect gay and straight people equalliy.

Eric says:

06:52pm | 27/02/10

Really, Andrew? I might have to take a look at some feminist textbooks. *evil grin*

Greg says:

01:53am | 01/03/10

I went to the local soccer club to see if I could get a game.Fine they said, so we went out to practice and a guy kicked the ball to me and I caught it. “cant do that” they said ” Why not thats how I like to play soccer” “No our rules have been in place for a hundred years and they clearly state no hands. Its against our rules”. Well im going to protest and go to equal opportunities untill you change your rules to suite me”
We’d never stand for such nonsense.
Why do gays seek to change the thousands years old structure of the catholic church? Why do they get tacid media support on this? Wether you like catholics, or any religious people,or not why should they have to change to suite a few people who are against the teachings?
As to people like Tim and old girl:  is insult all that you can offer to the debate? If its an irrelevent old book why are you commenting on it?
Feel free to believe or disbelieve what ever you want but what purpose is served by insulting others beliefs. You look very insecure.

6clegs says:

01:00am | 28/02/10

Oh, you’re just soooo ‘‘radical’‘, aren’t-cha?

You, “radical chick” may be “non-agressive”, but have you ever heard the terms; passive agressive, or, snarky ? coz you seem to have the snarky thing right down pat,

Are you sure that you and “Saskia” who also posts on Punch are not one-of-the-same?

And Churches, i think, invented the need for the term “passive agressive”

Greg (another one) says:

02:21am | 01/03/10

Bwian, I can tell you mine: No probs with gays, have many friends who are(work in the arts) We get along very well contsantly partying and performing. Great people. That does not give gays the right to dictate terms to others, to change things to suite them. If it doesnt suite their belifes why dont they set up something that does? No one has a problem with that.
Mabey you should have a look at a bible. You get forgiven if you ask for it in true contrition. If not you go to hell. Loving so long as you dont spit on him, then a vengeful, wrathful God. Could you blame him?
Now if you dont have a belief in God, (as a great gay celebrity mate of mine says “I feel sorry for them”) thats your business. But why are you here?
Ive found gays to be a very erudite and well mannered group. I consider a few to be some of the best mates I have,but Ive never met one who would post crass insults about someone elses beliefs. Unlike many here.

Lee from WA says:

02:17pm | 01/03/10

A God who takes seriously how his creation treats each others will judge and condemn evil, even though he is loving. People often have love and judgment at odds with each other, which might be true of humans, but isn’t true of God. He loves us so he takes our actions seriously and doesn’t tolerate our selfishness. If he takes our actions seriously, he will judge and condemn fairly.

So when it comes to homosexuality, if God’s design for sex in the creation of humans is for monogamous, heterosexual marriage, then homosexuality will be damaging to people, even if they themselves don’t recognise the damage being done. If God cares for us, then he will condemn that behaviour and those who do that behaviour.

Heather says:

07:58pm | 01/03/10

“Homosexuality is a sin.”

Chapter and verse (original, please, not misinformed 16th century translations).

Sodomy is not encouraged in scripture (between men and men OR women and men), but is not specifically mentioned as a “sin”. “Sodomites will not inherit the kingdom of God” is the NT verse most often quoted. But then, neither will liars, ursurers or gossips.

No outcry against banks charging interest though, and yet usury has a much longer-reaching effect than what adults do in their own bedroom. Guess everyone who ever bought a Woman’s Day or No Idea is pretty much done for as well, eh.

Funny how a gay man will be beaten for what he was made to be or given hatred for “Biblical” reasons whereas we don’t see the same rage meted out to bank managers (I’m not suggesting anyone should, either, btw).

The 10 Commandments don’t mention homosexuality being up there with murder, adultery or theft. Leviticus (the OT book that talks about “men lying with men as with a woman”) was a book for the OT Levites—ie, the priests of the day, to follow, not everyone else (who were covered by Deuteronomy (whihc doesn’t mention it). The OT Priest Law covered by Leviticus (including all of the clothing rules, sacrificial law, etc), were rendered moot by Jesus’ sacrifice (Jesus effectively ended “The Law”).

Hell, by the way? Not a Biblical concept, never has been. The Bible never mentions it. Hell, is in fact a medieval construct from and Ancient Roman/Greek ideal and was used to keep “the masses” (pun unintended) in line. The Bible mentions a “lake of fire” ONCE. It speaks of the greatest punishment being “set away from God” and the word we translate “perish” (as in “they will perish if [insert Bible rule here]”) literally translates to “perish, and go on perishing”). I have no idea what that really means, but Purgatory etc is also a meaningless concept, Biblically speaking.

Oh! No, I lie! There is one verse often tranlsated “Hell”. “You shall beat that child and save his soul from Hell.” (Actually the original means “destruction”, not Hell). Hm. Really?

I am neither Catholic, or gay, for the record. I do, however, wish that people who purport to be Christians actually knew what Scripture actually said on the subject, in context, not just as a sentence pulled out of a whole and quoted to justify unwarranted hatred and disgust—which, btw, is a learned disgust, not a “natural” one.

For the longest time, homosexual relations were a part of warrior culture (not always positive, but not negative either). It was the Ancient Romans that had issue with it (same Romans who have determined the “marriage rites” which are also extra-Biblical in inception). There was no pressure, btw, to “come out” either, people weren’t boxed so much (sexuality is not that simple, nor that complicated to throw us in as “gay”, “straight” or “bi”. We are built to love and we should be able to love who we love, and not just “eros” but true “agape” as well). All any of this does is cause people unnecessary angst and harm.

Why can’t we just live and let live, and follow the whole “judge not lest ye be judged” concept?

Daddio D says:

08:50am | 05/03/10

I haven’t checked in on this debate in a while, pardon me. Heather might like to look at the links I’ve posted for the answers she asks for. I didn’t produce them btw.

Greg says:

02:37am | 01/03/10

IMHO: You need to abandon your hyprocritical,nausoeus, ill- informed and unfounded but deeply held revulsion that leads you to the the view religious people are different to the rest of mankind. How dare you pronunce on the sexual behaviour or beliefs of adult human beings. If they dont like it who are you to force it on them, to take away their choice, their make up. I dont see you mentioning Allah here. Bit selective.
You trully need to abandon your hyprocitcal intolerence of others ways and beliefs.

Sam Chowder says:

04:08pm | 28/02/10

@Virgo - as a hetro I have always been jealous of all the fun gays seem to have and their lively social lives that are not always dominated by alcohol.  I may just tighten up my abs and devise a natty minimalist costume in time for next year, but I don’t think a hetro wannabe gay would be accepted.

Steve says:

08:38pm | 28/02/10

I can’t understand the madi gras myself. I don’t object to it but can’t see the appeal.
I have a gay friend who hates it. As far as he’s concerned, having a parade full of drag queens etc accomplishes nothing more than reinforce sterotypes he’d rather see discouraged. If I was gay I think I’d be inclined to feel the same way.

Greg says:

02:43am | 01/03/10

Steve all my gay mates feel the same, they dont like “Queens” it makes life harder for them cause of the sterotypes it reinforces, the ones they are trying to break.

Nickk says:

05:40pm | 01/03/10

You best be trolling.

1. Most guys (straight or gay) hang out with “many men.”
2. This was a cultural occurrence. It still occurs today in many places, such as the Mediterranean region, but the large majority of those men are straight.
3. He rejected having a settled personal life so he could travel to spread his message.
4. Having “very strong and radical” views says nothing about being gay. Can’t believe I’m going to compare Jesus to Hitler, but Hitler had “very strong and radical” views, one of which included the persecution of gays.
5. Outstanding fashion sense? The Bible says he looked like just a common man, nothing remarkable about his appearance. Snow white tunics? That’s purely from paintings you have seen, all of which use that colour for artistic purposes (usually indicating his pure/holy spirit)

Tim says:

10:39pm | 28/02/10

Shouldn’t you be angry at your fellow Christians that hide behind a single line in a book to preach their bigoted views and solidify the stereotype for your problem. 
Let’s put it this way (and I’m not in any terms saying the plight of the gay community is equal to the following attrocities, though the key points are the same) would you question a Jewish person of their feelings toward neo nazis? How about a black person toward a member of the KKK?  How do you thing a gay person is supposed to respond to posts like those written by Daddio D, or Radical Chick above? What about the constant denegration by the Pope or Cardinal or Cleric or the “religious” members of parliament?
I’m gay, my best friend is a Christian and I’ve never felt more love from anyone before. But I’ll be damned before I let my guard down to someone who says they’re religious while things are the way they are now.

Goose says:

05:42am | 01/03/10

I’m not religious Tim, I am a follower of Jesus. I am not decrying anyone that identifies with being gay, I am living my life according to the doctrine of the Bible as best as I can and treating others as I would like to be treated. You would also find the overwhelming majority of christians would be similar to me in that regard.

The point stands though, even if I love people, gay people, any people, the gay community still loudly and proudly declares me a homophobe. That is straight out intolerance of my position and yet completely justified by the gay community whilst deplored when the shoe is on the other foot.

I can’t speak for the Pope or Cardinals or Clerics, I speak for my actions and am accountable to Jesus, I don’t follow or worship them, I follow Him. He is my example.

Tim says:

10:48am | 01/03/10

Oh, ok.  You’re not religious.  Well in that case I’m not gay. I’m just sexually attracted to people of the same sex as me.

Heard of the term ‘once bitten, twice shy’? Again, if you don’t like it when you identify yourself as relig… I mean “a follower of Jesus” and the gays immediately look you up and down, think about all the homophopic BS that is still being spouted by your fellow Jesus followers.  Maybe then you’ll know who to target your distaste of being labelled and maybe then you’ll be the one who can help heal the wounds and spread some love.

Fren says:

01:08pm | 01/03/10

Romans 1 :  26
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.  28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.

Pretty clear to me

Daryl says:

04:12pm | 01/03/10

Fren, the verse of scripture which you have plucked out,  when read in context is referring to the sexual acts that were commonly performed in pagan worship at the time.  Also note that it states that people gave up ‘natural relations’.  Of course you are aware that homosexuality is a naturally occurring phenomina - it occurs in almost all animal species.  The natural form of relations for a homosexual is to have sex with someone of the same gender - for them to give up ‘natural relations’ they would have to be having heterosexual sex!!

Put simply the writers of the bible did not know what homosexual orientation was - therefore they did not write about it.  Instead we have some verses which are regularly taken out of context - as you have done - which decry those who go against their ‘natural’ instincts for perverted or pagan worship reasons.

Fren says:

10:34am | 02/03/10

Daryl,

Paul is writing to Roman Christians not pagans.
the Old Testament was written in Arabic not Greek.

Sorry dude no cigar, but nice   try not cutting and pasting directly from the internet next time. Do the reseach yourself it very hard oill to swallow but honestly look.

try I Timothy 1:10 and Jude 7. NT
also Leviticus and Deut. have references to homosexuality.

Daryl says:

02:46pm | 02/03/10

ROFL @ Fren!!

Actually the Old Testament was written in Hebrew, with some sections in Aramaic -oops do you feel embarressed? I always feel a little embarressed for people when they try to make someone else look silly, only to re-inforce that they themselves are…

I never stated the Old Testament was written in Greek - I stated that the Koine Greek word Porneia does not refer to homosexuality - this is the word quoted in the article and used in the NEW Testament.  The New Testament was written in Koine Greek - as I already noted.

Paul was writing to Roman Christians and warning about non Christian practices and their consequences - perhaps you need to study a little harder hmmm??

1 Timothy 1:10:  The word translated as ‘homosexual’ or’‘abusers of themselves with mankind’ is Arsenokoites or Arsenokoitai - I referred to it earlier you may recall - it is better translated as pedarist or somone who has sex with young boys.

Jude 1:7 - not chapter seven which doesn’t exist .  Jude refers to perversion - what kind of perversion is not mentioned.

Leviticus 18:22 the levitical holiness code is not applicable to Christians and there is much debate over the actual meaning of the verse - i.e. scholars have pointed out that it only forbids sex between two males - females are not mentioned, thus it does not refer to homosexuality as a whole.  Also the verse directly preceeding it deals with pagan worship practices, possibly making this refer to a religious practice.

Deuteronomy: refers to prostitutes not homosexuals.

Thanks for playing and God bless!