There are two key questions around the issue of gay marriage. One is the pretty straight forward question of whether you support it or not, and the polls suggest it is line ball.

Gillard's opposition to gay marriage has been resolute. Photo: Sandra Mu, Getty Images

The other question is whether you support the idea of politicians keeping their promises. I haven’t seen the polling on that but I would presume that no research firm has bothered to do any, as you would expect about 100 per cent of people to answer yes, politicians should obviously keep their promises, what a silly question to ask.

Having gone to the last election saying there would be no carbon tax under a government she leads, Julia Gillard will now be introducing one on July 1 next year. It’s a serious breach of voter confidence and one which has done her serious political damage.

As many have argued, when John Howard changed his mind on the GST which he promised to “never ever” introduce, he at least had the decency to return to the polls in 1998 to let the voters re-elect or turf him on a clearly-stated platform of tax reform. Gillard’s promise not to introduce a carbon tax was almost as unequivocal as Howard’s on the goods and services tax, yet she failed to give the voters a chance to accept or reject her change of heart. It may yet be the issue which costs her power at the next election.

At a time when the Prime Minister is struggling to maintain her credibility over the carbon tax backflip, it is truly bizarre that there are some within the Labor Party who are now trying to bludgeon her into a similar backflip over the question of gay marriage.

Despite her lengthy membership of Labor’s Left Faction, which has long regarded gay marriage as a cause worth fighting for, Gillard has taken a clear and frequently-stated stance against same-sex unions. She spent much of the election campaign saying it is her view and the party’s view that marriage is between a man and woman, and was memorably chastised by a young lesbian voter for putting that position during the people’s debate at the Rooty Hill RSL.

At the instigation of the Greens, and with the active support of several members of the Labor Left, Labor Caucus has now signed off on legislation which would prevent the Commonwealth from interfering if gay marriage were legalised in the territories. The constitutional issues are similar to past rows over voluntary euthanasia and safe injection rooms for heroin users which at times have been championed by the NT and ACT.

The political issues are twofold. Hot on the heels of her nasty little fib over the carbon tax, it puts Julia Gillard at risk of looking like a liar all over again as a result of her oft-stated insistence that only heterosexual couples be allowed to marry. 

More ominously, it emphasises the growing public view that this Labor Government is bright green on the inside, that Julia Gillard has one hand on the steering wheel and is sharing it with everyone from Bob Brown, Adam Bandt and Christine Milne to country independents Rob Oakeshott and Tony Windsor.

You could also throw in the question of priorities – is this really such an important for the Government to busy itself with? Surely working out how a carbon tax can operate without belting household budgets is a more pressing task? 

Tony Abbott is all over this second issue like a cheap suit. He tapped into the slang of Gen Y to make the point on radio this week, using the teen term “randoms”, used to describe any social get-together where you get stuck with strangers, to characterise the wacky vibe of this Parliament.

“The Prime Minister’s line, “there will be no carbon tax under a government I lead”, will haunt her,” Abbott said this week. “But the other thing that’s going to haunt her is that image of the Prime Minister milling around in the prime ministerial courtyard being overshadowed by Bob Brown and a whole lot of other random people. Random people, my kids would say. What’s Julia Gillard doing with all those randoms?”

Julia Gillard is acutely aware of this perception and even went to the trouble this week of outlining the major policy differences between Labor and the Greens, such as support for the alliance with the US and the war in Afghanistan, and support for lower rates of company tax and personal tax. The fact that she went to these lengths was a clear sign that she is worried that voters think it is not her but the likes of Bob Brown calling the shots.

Gillard has very few arguments at her disposal to explain her u-turn on carbon. Her line that this was the Parliament the Australian people voted for is a poor one. It sounds like she’s claiming her government has carte blanche to alter its policy agenda from that which the Labor Party presented to the voters during the election campaign. It also ignores the fact that more than 70 per cent of voters opted for either of the major parties. Of the remainder who stumped for Greens and independents, many of them probably did not envisage the policy confusion this non-result would generate.

If Labor’s Left wants to force the Prime Minister to break another of her promises, it should do so in the knowledge that it is writing the script for the Coalition’s negative advertisements for the next election campaign, depicting a government which has not one but several leaders and cannot be taken on its word.

None of these observations by the way have anything to do with the concept of gay marriage. I suspect many voters don’t really care about the issue. My personal views are in favour, if only because it would make a large number of people really happy, and I fail to see how the fact that two blokes can tie the knot in anyway undermines the sanctity of the institution for straight folks.

That’s not the issue right now. It would be another broken promise, which would make the Greens look even more like the Government of the day, on an issue which many voters probably rank about 145th on the list of importance.

146 comments

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    • Against the Man says:

      05:33am | 06/03/11

      David, the Greens are the current government and Bob Brown is the current PM for all effective purposes. Gillard is just hanging on. good policy or even keeping election promises is not part of the game plan any more. The Australian people have learnt a few things over the last few years - what it is like to have the ALP in government and what it is like to have the Greens in government and either option is basically terrible. Game over for Gillard, right now it is all about crossing the finish line in June to collect that pension.

    • Joan says:

      09:24am | 06/03/11

      Yep it should be Bob Brown and his defacto flying to USA meeting up with Obama, addressing the congress and not Juliar and her defacto

    • Catching up says:

      02:02pm | 06/03/11

      As for euthanasia, I am too sure what her views are on that.  I would like to point out that the two bills introduced by Territory governments, while Coalition governments where in power.

      What has been introduced by the Greens, is a bill to remove the right of veto over Territory law from the minister, that is the Executive.  The power to veto will remain in the form of an act of parliament. Since when is it a backtrack or back down to refer a bill to a parliamentary committee for revision.

      I am waiting for the circus of watching Coalition members supporting more powers for the Executive, allowing laws to bypass the scrutiny of parliament.

      What our PM does do when anyone an issue that worries them the chance to test their concerns.  Is that so bad.  The bill has not been dumped, and my guess it will come back to the parliament intact, along with the views of those who do not believe in the supremacy of the parliament well known.

      This story is based on the false premises in that PM Gillard is bringing in laws to allow euthanasia and gay marriages. That is a falsehood, once more the MSM manipulating stories.

      I would like to add, Mr Brown would be tickled pink to know he is the PM, but he knows, like most of Australians, he is knows he is no more PM than Ms. Meg Lees was, when Mr. Howard when he was endeavouring to getting the GST through parliament.

      I heard Mr. Robb complain this morning that if a conscious vote was allowed, these bills, if introduced would get through.  So much for the Opposition’s understanding of parliamentary democracy

    • Nora R Ferguson says:

      05:33am | 06/03/11

      Gay Marriage should be a reality. There are far too many homophobes in society.  Luckily there is hope. Our Greens branch wants gay awareness and appreciation taught at every school and, like sexual harassment lectures in teh workplace, we want gay appreciation lectures in the workplace.  Hopeful this will “breed” out any homophobes.  Hopefully editors and moderators of the future will just censor any homophobic posts.

    • BobM says:

      08:27am | 06/03/11

      And gee, Nora, I believe that when they find the ‘gay’ gene, these foetuses should be aborted so we can ‘breed’ them out. Being Green, you do believe in abortion. don’t you?

      “Hopefully editors and moderators of the future will just censor any homophobic posts.” 
      PS: This is still a free country - although Labor and the Greens are certainly working to change that.

    • L. says:

      08:39am | 06/03/11

      “Hopefully editors and moderators of the future will just censor any homophobic posts. “

      Yeah you tell’em Nora, who needs to have an opinion heard that’s different to yours..??

    • Stephen says:

      08:45am | 06/03/11

      No free speech then Nora? I don’t want my children “indoctrinated” into the gay lifestyle. What next Nora, burn homophobic books?

    • Bolz says:

      10:10am | 06/03/11

      “we want gay appreciation lectures in the workplace.”

      Can’t they just do their job without me appreciating their gayness? I mean, I don’t go around appreciating someone straightness!

      I thought we were working towards equality not special treatent!

    • WayneT says:

      10:17am | 06/03/11

      Bloody Nora!!.  So you would have anybody with an opposite stance or opinion to you to be silenced, have you learnt nothing from the past?  I guess it’s revenge for all the years suffered in silence.  People like you give this way of life a bad name.  Just because your way of life is not always acceptable to a large number of your fellow Australians does not give you the right to silence their opinion.  And I find your suggestions of indoctrinating school children at an early age disgusting.

    • Gregg says:

      10:47am | 06/03/11

      @ All the Losers,
      I reckon all the Nora bashers are really symptomatic of the ignorance of many people.
      You might want to pick on a few words re curtailing any homphobic posts but how about putting it into context.
      There’s a lot of good education that could make many people more aware as they advance through puberty into adolescence and on to adulthood.
      One of the reasons for so much homophobia is the lack of education and knowledge in the past and it comes through with homophobic posts that can be ignorant, bullish, immature and whatever other label you want to add to yours.

      Censoring homophobic posts does not need banning them and I suppose we’ll always have people with a difficulty of understanding, these people perhaps even having an unknown gay person within their own family.
      Grow up Homophobiles.

    • Denny Crane says:

      11:15am | 06/03/11

      hey Nora, how do the marrackville greens deal with gay jews? Is it a love hate relationship - love them cause their gay but hate them for being Jewish? The greens really make me sick. The double standards, the hypocracy, the stupid statements about climate - ie the floods were caused by the coal miners, the crazy economic claims. I even heard Bobby brown saying that he was more economically responsible than Abbott because he supported a carbon tax that was not happening anywhere else in the world.

      You must think most people are stupid, but people are starting to wake up to you frauds. Like the democrats and One Nation you soon will be gone. This is the high point and its only down hill from here. We can only hope you dont do too much damage before you go,

    • RobJ says:

      11:59am | 06/03/11

      “hey Nora, how do the marrackville greens deal with gay jews? Is it a love hate relationship - love them cause their gay but hate them for being Jewish?”

      What?

      “a carbon tax that was not happening anywhere else in the world.

      Ah, I see, Denny Crane just makes things up as he/she goes along:

    • Zac de Spudnut says:

      12:32pm | 06/03/11

      Gay Marriage should be a reality. There are far too many homophobes in society.>>>

      If we don’t socially engineer our society to fit in your choice of lifestyle we are homophobes. Marriage is for a man and woman. If that makes me homophobe, I am proudly one.

      Luckily there is hope. Our Greens branch wants gay awareness and appreciation taught at every school and, like sexual harassment lectures in teh workplace, we want gay appreciation lectures in the workplace.  Hopeful this will “breed” out any homophobes.>>>

      This is purely brainwashing and intolerance of traditional values and families. We will make sure this is defeated at every instance.

      Hopefully editors and moderators of the future will just censor any homophobic posts.>>>

      Brainwash schools and workplace and censor freedom of speech. Any chance you want a one way ticket to China?

    • L. says:

      01:01pm | 06/03/11

      “Marriage is for a man and woman.”

      Again, says who..?? If you say the “law”, well that can be changed.

      “This is purely brainwashing and intolerance of traditional values and families.”

      How is educating about homosexuality brainwashing or promoting of traditional values and families..?? DO you really think one can become “gay” by being told that gays are people to..?

      “Brainwash schools…”

      You mean like we already do with the federally funded school chaplincy program..??

    • Zac de Spudnut says:

      01:38pm | 06/03/11

      L. ,

      “Marriage is for a man and woman.”

      Again, says who..?? If you say the “law”, well that can be changed.>>>

      This is where moral relativism will take you. Marriage is between a man and woman and has been part and parcel of society for thousands of years. Marriage is very much a religious institution. You hate Christians/Christianity then why love the institution? If you disagree with Christian world view, I also disagree with your world view irrespective on whatever it is based (Atheistic beliefs, Darwinism, hedonism etc)

      There are heaps of people who love, there are groups people who love, do you think they all should end up in marriage? It has kept humanity going. Now on some new found modernism and so called tolerance you want to change the very basics of society to suit your agenda. Can members of same sex breed? Big NO. Same sexes need the opposite sex to breed, that tells you homosexual relationship is ABNORMAL.

      How is educating about homosexuality brainwashing or promoting of traditional values and families..?? DO you really think one can become “gay” by being told that gays are people to..?>>>

      This is not education, it is about normalising homosexuality. I don’t want my kids to be brainwashed with homosexuality or homosexual lifestyle full stop. Homosexuality is a CHOICE, I have no doubt about that.

      “Brainwash schools…”

      You mean like we already do with the federally funded school chaplincy program..??>>>

      If that to you is brainwashing then why do you think homosexual choice of lifestyle is not brainwashing?

    • Catching up says:

      02:12pm | 06/03/11

      Not happening anywhere else in the world.
      It is only happening in thirty countries and ten states in America.  China is taking g steps to reduce carbon, not a price on carbon I will agree, but under their political, do they need to do so. The USA are doing many other things, due to their inability to get a price on carbon through Congress.  Most are suggesting this is at the best second rate and more expensive.

      The UK has been reducing carbon since the days of Thatcher, for those who do not remember her, is over thirty years.  She also destroyed the coal industry, the sky does not appear to have ell down.
      I respect your right to make opinions but I do not support the spreading of mistruths.

    • Carlos says:

      02:37pm | 06/03/11

      @ Zac de Spudnut

      While I disagree that we need “gay appreciation” lectures (what better way to make people resentful?) to say that society is being “engineered” to be pro-gay is ridiculous. I certainly don’t agree with the tone of Nora’s comment, but your response does concern me.
      You don’t gave to be gay, your kids don’t have to be gay, no one has to be gay. But, if they are gay, then they have the right to be treated equally and to be valued as a human being.

      “Luckily there is hope. Our Greens branch wants gay awareness and appreciation taught at every school and, like sexual harassment lectures in teh workplace, we want gay appreciation lectures in the workplace.  Hopeful this will “breed” out any homophobes.>>>

      This is purely brainwashing and intolerance of traditional values and families. We will make sure this is defeated at every instance. ”

      Many traditional values are intolerant, but if there is intolerance of said values, this is unfair?
      No one is going to be brainwashed into suddenly turning gay, but if every member of the community (and I mean every member) tried to show a little more empathy and respect to one another, imagine the great things we could do!
      If you don’t believe in gay marriage, you don’t have to get married to someone of the same sex.

      “Marriage is for a man and woman. If that makes me homophobe, I am proudly one.”
      Along with your other words and the tone of your comments, I would say yes, it does make you one.

    • Alannah says:

      03:05pm | 06/03/11

      Lets put the gay to test hey.
      Show me a gay couple who can have a kid without asking for help from the other sex.

      You know two chicks without sperm
      Two men without an egg

      only then Gay marriages should go ahead.

    • michael j says:

      03:35pm | 06/03/11

      @bobm i seem to remember reading in the courier mail some 20 years ago that such a gene had been found,maybe there is something new on google, certainly i have never heard of a foetus being aborted because it had a homosexual gene ,,but as some genetic changes are sometimes cancelled out by evolution when not helped along by test tubes,,the fact remains heterosexual couples remain the breeding stock of humanity,,

    • Tomthumb says:

      02:50am | 07/03/11

      Ah Zac is sure that homosexuality is a choice… presumably the only way to be sure is from personal experience. So Zac, it seems you have been gifted with bi-sexuality, the ability to find both sexes attractive. Appreciate your gift and don’t be so hard on the rest of us who don’t get to choose.

    • James1 says:

      11:18am | 07/03/11

      “Homosexuality is a CHOICE, I have no doubt about that.”

      So you have chosen to not be a homosexual then Zac?  In other words, you are sexually attracted to men, but choose not to act on this attraction, instead acting on your sexual attraction to women.  In yet other words, you yourself are a bisexual, who, for whatever reason, chooses to only have sex with women.

      For me, homosexuality is not a choice, in that I am not attracted to men in the least, and thus have no other option but to be heterosexual.  Different strokes for different folks, I suppose.  I certainly won’t judge you for being bisexual.

    • Mal says:

      12:40pm | 07/03/11

      If gay marriage is acceptable can I also ask if you are in favour of polygamy?  If not why not as this is just another alternative to traditional marriage?

    • Squeeze the Middle says:

      02:55pm | 07/03/11

      Fantastic idea Nora. I support any compaign to counter ignorance. Like the ignorance that the gay marriage issue is at home on the left.  Like the ignorance that marriage law in Australia is anything more than an efficient mechanism for signing up to a bundle of rights or obligations.  Like the ignorance that our Cth or State Constitutions say anything about an individuals rights? The ignorance about how Australian family law is inflicting sexist economic violence against men every day.

      We need greater awareness on more than just homophobia. We need to fight ignorance against all such extremist views so they can be bred out of our society. Including extreme feminists (misandrists) and extreme socialists.

    • Economist says:

      05:46am | 06/03/11

      Just as the GST stitched up the Australian Democrats, they copped it in the neck, could Gillard and Co be trying to use these two issues to get rid of the Greens electorally? If this is the plan, I just don’t think it will work. The Democrats tried to win over everyone. The Greens represent just the left.

    • L. says:

      08:41am | 06/03/11

      “could Gillard and Co be trying to use these two issues to get rid of the Greens electorally?”

      Do you honestly believe that Gillard and Co are that clever..??

    • MarK says:

      10:07am | 06/03/11

      She is not that sophisticated.

      Not in a million years.

      She has lost control of the agenda.

    • Mitch says:

      11:13am | 06/03/11

      Not sure if serious.  How could you undermine a party of the left by presenting them as the champions of issues from the left (climate change and same sex marriage)??  These issues are helping the Greens eat away Labor’s base and solidify already converted Labor voters, not undermining them.

    • BL says:

      05:53am | 06/03/11

      I’m no fan of Labor, but I don’t know anyone who ISNT in support of gay marriage (then again I don’t really know any conservative, redneck asshats). I think if she done a backflap on it it would actually work in her favour, as not only will we be seen as a progressive evolving western country that is moving with the times, she will be seen as a leader not afraid to make the tough decisions and take risks.

    • John Parry says:

      09:03am | 06/03/11

      I’m not in favour of it because marriage is between a man and woman, and I’m not about to pander to the whims of some who agree with some perverse human activity. The very notion that it should be treated as “normal” is just wrong. Presumably that makes me a redneck asshat, whatever that is. But then as with most asshats, I’m not supposed to voice my opinion, am I?

    • jf says:

      09:54am | 06/03/11

      “I’m no fan of Labor, but I don’t know anyone who ISNT in support of gay marriage”

      Rest easy BL, not being a fan of Labor and being a supporter of gay marriage are perfectly consistent with each other.

      The Labor/Green coalition opposes gay marriage.

      A vote for them is not a vote for gay marriage

    • stephen says:

      10:04am | 06/03/11

      A ‘redneck asshat’ ?
      A description of symptoms post mardi gras.
      And don’t forget your rubbers, fellas.
      23 cases of AIDS last year in QLD, and I reckon if there were 23 cases of, say, Mesothelioma per year, we’d have another Royal Commission.

    • Bennymac says:

      10:10am | 06/03/11

      The same could be said of her decision to introduce a carbon tax, the public perception of Julia’s integrity is on thin ice at the moment .

      As mentioned in the article, over 70% voted for no carbon tax in the last election, the policy put forward by the two major parties. The same 70 odd % of voters made a decision to vote for parties that didn’t support gay marriage.

      I personaly support gay marriage, but the fact of the matter is that while, when polled individualy, the split of support may be 50/50, thats not how our system works. At the last election 70% people said no to gay marriage. The ballot box is the one oppourtunity, that comes once every three years, for the 99% of australians who have no other way of being heard to pass on their opinion on the country’s future direction. isn’t that the whole premise of living in a democracy?

      When we begin to support politicians breaking core election promises, no matter what the ideology behind them, its game over, what the people want is of no consequence any more. that’s a new paradigm im not interested in.

    • L. says:

      10:21am | 06/03/11

      “I’m not in favour of it because marriage is between a man and woman”

      Where’s that written..?? Oh yeah, the LAW. Simple, change the law, it’s not set in stone.

      “I’m not about to pander to the whims of some who agree with some perverse human activity.”

      Exactly how does two gay people marrying have you “pandering” to anything? In fact, how would you be involed at all?

      “The very notion that it should be treated as “normal” is just wrong. “

      Why..?? At what % of papulation participation of any given act makes said act “normal”..? It seems to me that homosexuality crosses both genders, all races in all countries. Looks like it’s pretty common…ie: “normal”.

    • Gregg says:

      10:36am | 06/03/11

      @John Parry,
      Sure you can voice your opinion here as many do and you may be fine upstanding bloke other fine blokes would have a beer with but why do you not seek some medical information on how hormones can decide who you may want to share more than a beer with.
      You obviously see an attraction between same sexes as peverse whereas it is just different to how the majority of us are and fortunately so for those of us who like it that way and there being differences is all normal, just as it is normal for there to be many differnt body sizes and shapes, colour of skin, eyes and hair etc.
      And true, what is not normal for the majority may seem abnormal and even peverse for some, some women liking hairy men but then those with enough to be heading towards gorilla resemblance might be a turn off.
      But our eyes all open and close and so get yours wide open and allow the brain to function more mormally as to the processing of what you can find out.

    • Pete says:

      11:21am | 06/03/11

      I fall into your category of a conservative redneck and to be honest I could not give a monkeys what gays do. It really is a non-issue to me. I am far more concerned with the damage the greens and labor are doing to the economy. Funny that Clive james calls us deniers as the progressive people for questioning the faith. I think the foolish greens need to understand the difference between progressive and regressive, cause they together with labor are taking the country backwards.

    • Barry says:

      04:49pm | 06/03/11

      @stephen
      They didn’t call it GRID for nuthin!

    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      08:57am | 07/03/11

      BL

      I don’t care what relationship they have. 
       
      I don’t care if they get the same legal rights as hetero couples. 
       
      I hope they all live happily ever after together. 
       
      Do not, however, call it marriage. Make up your own word or co-opt another. That one is reserved for the union between a man and a woman.

    • James1 says:

      11:22am | 07/03/11

      Tony,

      What if we put it to the voters, and a majority voted in support?  Would that change your position?

    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      11:43am | 07/03/11

      James

      No, it wouldn’t change my point of view, any more than Gillard’s big new tax has changed my view on global warming.

    • James1 says:

      12:02pm | 07/03/11

      I’m surprised Tony, given your position on a referendum on Muslim immigration.  So I take it that you feel some issues are off the table for popular democratic decision-making.  Are there any others which you feel should be off the table?  My own would be 1) racially selective immigration policies; 2) economic policy; and 3) matters of national defence.

      (As usual, I ask these questions because I actually want to know the answer, not in some kind of attempt to discredit you or anything like that.)

    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      12:43pm | 07/03/11

      James

      it wouldn’t change my point of view, but I’d go along because it is the law. I don’t agree with our tax system, where those that try harder get pinged more, but I go along with it because it is legislated. Worse luck. 
       
      And anyway ... if I we took Muslim immigration to a referendum (with a fair and reasonable structured question), then I’d be happy to see this on the same docket. And Bob Brown could draft the question on homosexual unions. 
       
      That’s how important to our future I belive curtailing Muslim immigration is. 
       
      (PS Two female friends of mine were married on Sat night)

    • maybe says:

      03:59pm | 07/03/11

      tony,

      “PS Two female friends of mine were married on Sat night”

      did you say…“married” ? was that for our benefit, so we knew what you meant when describing their unoin?  If you don’t give a rats about anything else about the gays getting ‘married’ why would you give a shit what it’s called? its just a word.  Their meanings are dynamic and constantly evolving. It’s just a freaking word.

      what ever happened to live and let live. I just don’t understand why it’s so easy for people to hate than just not give a fuck what other people do.

    • mahhrat says:

      05:58am | 06/03/11

      The mere fact that we politicise gay marriage is unconstitutional. The only valid argument against is religion, and using your beliefs to set policy is against same.

    • jf says:

      09:48am | 06/03/11

      Point to the section of The Constitution that says that mahhrat - either in letter or spirit.

    • Super D says:

      06:44am | 06/03/11

      It is doubtful Labor will be re-elected after Gillards Carbon tax lie.  There is no doubt that if an election were held today Tony Abbott would be PM.  A second backflip would cement the Labor Lies meme, probably signing the ALP up for at least 3 terms in opposition. 

      Furthermore the gay marriage legislation - like any carbon tax - wouldn’t last.  This next bit is going to really piss progressives off.  There will only be gay marriage when the coalition support it.  This may take a while but in the meantime is an inconvenient truth that can’t be ignored.

    • 7hris says:

      04:20pm | 06/03/11

      Interesting comment. What I think would be awesome would be if Tony Abbott just suddenly supported same sex marriage.

      The extreme right aren’t about to start voting Labor… and if they ran to family first, they would still preference the liberals ahead of Labor.

      It would pull people like me who vote green (for this sole issue) completely over to their side, and alot of people I know would be in the same boat.

    • persephone says:

      07:15am | 06/03/11

      Lovely little story, Penbo, but it’s based on a mistruth.

      The Commonwealth laws on marriage over ride any passed by the States or territories - which is why the Commonweath has laws on marriage.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Section_51(xxxvii)_of_the_Australian_Constitution

      So the territories and states can’t legislate for gay marriage, regardless.

      Total beat up.

    • AdamC says:

      09:32am | 06/03/11

      Persephone, I agree that Crean’s territories proposal is not really a credible back door to gay marriage (or euthenasia) in the ACT and NT. However, I think Penbo was writing more generally on the topic, and there is little doubt that a more sustained push for ‘marriage equality’ is starting to manifest in the fetish dungeons of Australia’s progressive left.

      I simply can’t believe the government would countenance another overt abrogation of their election commitments, but we are already in uncharted territory with Gillard as it is, so anything’s possible.

      On the issue itself, the political calculus is pretty clear. Some voters (say, 20%) are seriously committed to gay marriage. Possibly slightly more voters vehemently oppose marriage equality, and these voters also find support among Labor’s Catholic ‘right’. While the ‘yes’ camp may be better represented (with the MSM in advocacy mode on the matter) I don’t believe they are better organised or more passionate. And the ‘no’ group are more likely to be swinging voters.

      So, not only would it be dishonest for the spinning spinster to pursue a gay marriage policy, it would also be dumb.

    • jf says:

      09:51am | 06/03/11

      So I take it that you don’t support gay marriage Perse?

    • Against the Man says:

      10:36am | 06/03/11

      Pers will support whatever Bob Brown tells him to support smile

    • persephone says:

      10:40am | 06/03/11

      Adam

      yes, but any change would have to happen within the context of Federal parliament - and it would be a conscience vote.

      Something which Penbo also conveniently overlooks.

      jf

      why is pointing out a clause in the constitution - something which is either a fact or it isn’t - anything to do with whether I support something or not?

    • jf says:

      12:03pm | 06/03/11

      persephone says:10:40am | 06/03/11

      “why is pointing out a clause in the constitution - something which is either a fact or it isn’t - anything to do with whether I support something or not?”

      I was referring to the fact that you are a frequent and vocal supporter of the Labor Party and Julie Gillard. Both of whom have a policy position that is firmly against gay marriage.

    • persephone says:

      12:39pm | 06/03/11

      jf

      so what?

      The party can think what it wants - membership does not mean you can’t disagree. (Hint: this is why the State and Federal conferences often debate issues on which the parliamentarians and the exec have already made their position clear).

      And there’s nothing that says you have to agree with everything the PM does, either.

      I assume that it can’t be the same if you’re a member of the Right, because they so often make these assumptions.

      I’m in it to change it from within, not because I agree with every single policy position.

    • jf says:

      03:00pm | 06/03/11

      No Perse, I’m not a member of the right.

      I am, however a supporter of the opposition.

      And yes, of course you don’t have to agree with every policy or point of view held by the party that by and large represents your views.

      My tongue-in-cheek comments were there to highlight the hypocrisy and politics of convenience that all defines the left generally and the ALP specifically.

      Like you, I support gay marriage. However, whilst I disagree with my sides policy position, I can have a sensible discussion with them about it. 

      You can’t tell me that Julia Gillard doesn’t support gay marriage – she simply doesn’t have the courage of her convictions.

    • Cate P says:

      03:31pm | 06/03/11

      Persephone, not a beat-up at all, rather the opportunism of Brown, a very practiced political operator who nearly pulled the wool over our illustrious PM’s eyes, but for the sharpness of a few ALP Right fellows who cruelled his pitch.  The bill aimed to remove the power of veto of the PM over laws passed by territorial authorities (not states, they’re different).  So an act of parliament rather than a PM veto would then be required to overturn laws passed by territorial governments.  Brown and co would hope to force a change of commonwealth marriage laws if laws were passed allowing gay marriage in the ACT.  Probably over-ambitious on the part of Brown but certainly shows how dumb he thinks Gillard is.

    • Chris says:

      04:23pm | 06/03/11

      Thank you jf.

      Fingers crossed for the national meeting.

    • persephone says:

      06:38am | 07/03/11

      CateP

      regardless, a state or territory cannot legally pass legislation which is contrary to the Federal constitution.

      Removing the PM’s right of veto for the territories doesn’t change that.

      It’d be a bit pointless having a Federatl consitution at all if other tiers of government could just ignore it.

      Put it this way: Bob Brown, former doctor, no legal training, limited resources behind him: Julia Gillard, very much a high powered lawyer, partner in one of the biggest law firms in the country, expert legal advice (particularly on constitutional matters) at her fingertips.

      I’m pretty sure which one understood what was going on!

      (And I agree: BB thinks he’s a lot better than he is).

    • Andy says:

      07:32am | 06/03/11

      I’m in favour, BUT surely Gillard can’t change her mind on this now also. She needs to take this to the next election. It would be politcal poison for her and her Government to backflip again.

    • P. Darvio says:

      07:40am | 06/03/11

      A carbon tax on gay marriages…..???

      The Christian Bible says all gays are to be killed

      What a sick barbaric belief system it is along with the religious texts of the 2 other Abrahamic faiths. When is humanity going to grow up and cast aside the evil of these belief systems?

    • Zac de Spudnut says:

      12:47pm | 06/03/11

      Darvio,

      It is not the Christians of Bible that ended up killing millions around the world to create Atheistic utopia just 50 to 60 years ago. How did the Atheist tyrants without the aid of God or a Holy Book ended up killing millions of men, women and children? Answer that Darvio. Like the Greeny Nora you want to brain wash and socially engineer society and you want us to keep quiet while you are at it? If we give Labor and Greens a free go we will witnessing another Communist utopia in the making

    • L says:

      01:21pm | 06/03/11

      “If we give Labor and Greens a free go we will witnessing another Communist utopia in the making”

      Soooo…. Now homosexual marriage = communism..??

      Wow… just wow….

      By the way Zac, Hitler was a Roman Catholic.

    • Zac de Spudnut says:

      02:47pm | 06/03/11

      Now homosexual marriage = communism..??>>>

      It is about de-stabilising society and is part of the Communist utopia.

      By the way Zac, Hitler was a Roman Catholic.>>>

      Really? “How persuasive are these claims? Hitler was born Catholic just as Stalin was born into the Russian Orthodox Church and Mao was raised as a Buddhist. These facts prove nothing as many people reject their religious upbringing, as these three men did. From an early age, historian Allan Bullock writes, Hitler “had no time at all for Catholic teaching, regarding it as a religion fit only for slaves and detesting its ethics.”

      http://townhall.com/columnists/dineshdsouza/2007/11/05/was_hitler_a_christian

    • marley says:

      03:28pm | 06/03/11

      @Zac - how on earth does gay marriage equate to communism?  Why should it destablilize society?  Canada’s had gay marriage for seven or eight years, still has a Conservative government, and still has the same social strengths and weaknesses it had before gay marriage. It hasn’t had one iota’s worth of impact on society there, one way or the other.  The gates of hell will not open if gays are given the right to marry.

    • Chris says:

      04:25pm | 06/03/11

      Zac is a troll, surely the moderators can see this and do something about it?

    • PaulB says:

      05:13pm | 06/03/11

      Hitler never renounced his belief in your god Spudnut.  Right to the end.  Put your bible down and try a bit of non-fiction for a change.

    • michael j says:

      12:28am | 07/03/11

      @ that just cleared things up ,,these homosexual men or women that want to get married in church or mosque actually want GODS blessing CHRIST
      forgiveness and a life in ISLAM,,,And they still be praying for somthing they carn’t have???????????????????????or are they just trying to deny religiosity people the right to what theywant they believe in

    • P. Darvio says:

      10:38am | 07/03/11

      OK lets see – some claim Hitler was an atheist and quote a Christian Historian who later “….changed his mind about Hitler. His later works show Hitler as much more of an ideologue, who pursued the ideas expressed in Mein Kampf (and elsewhere) despite their consequences. This has become a widely accepted view of Hitler, particularly in relation to the Holocaust”

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Bullock

      What did Hitler actually say himself in Mein Kampf and elsewhere?

      “Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.”  –Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)

      “We were convinced that the people needs and requires this faith.  We have therefore undertaken the fight against the atheistic movement, and that not merely with a few theoretical declarations: we have stamped it out.” -Adolf Hitler, in a speech in Berlin on 24 Oct. 1933

      M’mmm clearly no Atheist….

      What did Hitler say about his Christian beliefs and the Christian GOD?

      “My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter.  It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth!  was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922

      Some claim Hitler lost his Christianity and became an Atheist. What did others close to Hitler say about Hitler’s Christian Beliefs?

      “Around 1937, when Hitler heard that at the instigation of the party and the SS vast numbers of his followers had left the church because it was obstinately opposing his plans, he nevertheless ordered his chief associates, above all Goering and Gobbels, to remain members of the church. He too would remain a member of the Catholic Church, he said, although he had no real attachment to it. And in fact he remained in the church until his suicide.”  (Inside the Third Reich by Albert Speer page 95-96).

    • Gerry says:

      07:40am | 06/03/11

      If Gillard changed her mind again, any integrety or conviction she has left will be shot to pieces. This time she has no choice but to get a mandate first. I couldn’t stand another episode of JULIAR.

    • Ryan says:

      07:47am | 06/03/11

      What do you mean Penbo, the media yourself included will just do what you have always done when Labor back-flips, cover up and spin. She, like her predecessor have gotten away with promising the world then when they get in “changing everything” (as so eloquently put by Peter Garrett), why should this promise be any different and not be broken?

    • stevie p says:

      07:50am | 06/03/11

      I really would like to know how many of the Labor Ministers believe the spin coming from their PM? Really? Do Crean, Martin F even Greg Combet fall into step just as faithful old warriors?

    • Mick S says:

      09:22am | 06/03/11

      One must also wonder of course whether all of the Coalition back Abbott’s spin -  three word slogan denials of everything. 
      Let’s remember that Abbott won the party leadership by only one vote.
      Turnbull has already stated his position as being in favour of the proposed Carbon tax.
      Do Turnbull and Hockey sit comfortably with the racist rantings of Bernardi and Co? 
      Is there still room for “small l” liberals in the Coalition?

    • Dave C says:

      06:31pm | 06/03/11

      Yes and No Mick S, if you include the dozen or so Nationals MPs and Senators who were all 100% against a Carbon Tax/ETS/CPRS whatever then its clear the majority of the Coalition were against MT’s tax so much so that MT (already facing an election loss as bad as what the ALP in NSW are about to get, thanks Godwin) lost his postion. Those Libs and Nats were only reflecting the concerns on farmers and small business owners who are the Coalitions base.

      The ironic part is after that Rudd got rid of the policy on Gillards advice and now because of the Greens its back on the agenda. 

      As for Cory B from SA, there are people who have a problem with Muslim Immigration in this country (I am not one of them) however they are still entitled to an opinion and also entitled to representation. We are not a Stalinist Green Left dictatorship yet, or are we?

    • Mouse says:

      07:01pm | 06/03/11

      Hey Mick S, at least Abbott took it to the vote!

    • iansand says:

      08:33am | 06/03/11

      I don’t see why it should be a question of party politics.  Make it a conscience vote.  If it is so important to the Greens Adam Brandt can put up a private members bill.

    • Chris says:

      04:26pm | 06/03/11

      They need to wait until the ALP national meeting where the ALP stance is very likely to change to a consious vote.

    • James M says:

      09:00am | 06/03/11

      Two thoughts: if Labor is already stuck with the ‘Juliar’ meme then why not go for broke? On the other hand, is a broken election promise really how progressives (and I count myself as one) want to get this done? I’d prefer to see a clean kill.

      @Nora Ferguson: nice try.

    • TCB 24 X 7 says:

      09:03am | 06/03/11

      Talk as much as you want,
      The reality is that neither Liberal or Labor will ever back gay marriage.

    • Someone sensible says:

      01:45pm | 06/03/11

      And rightly so.

    • Chris says:

      04:29pm | 06/03/11

      Just like they will never support equal rights for women. Oh wait, both parties changed their mind on that one didn’t they.

      Get with the times people. Australia might be falling behind, but in 50 years anyone who opposed this are gonna look like total wankers.

    • TCB 24 X 7 says:

      08:02pm | 06/03/11

      Hey Chris,
      You cant compare gay marriage with anything else.
      This is on its own.
      As i said , like it or not neither libs or labor will ever support gay marriage

    • Daniel says:

      09:08am | 06/03/11

      I think the polls show about 62% support for it it will make very little difference in Australia anyhow. This law that the Greens have introduced will make zero or no difference to gays getting married or not. The media needs to get real on this.

    • Pat says:

      09:27am | 06/03/11

      Was this part of the deal Gillard did with the Greens to get their support? I’m a bit of a poitical novice, but why did Gillard say yes to so much of the greens agenda. They would never have supported Abbott no matter what she said no to surely.

    • Zaf says:

      10:21am | 06/03/11

      If they refused to support her, then either Abbott would be in her current position or there would have been another election. Either of these outcomes would have been potentially vote increasing for the Greens.  Labor needed the Greens more than the Greens needed Labor.  As for a pre-done deal, I doubt it.

    • Tom D says:

      09:48am | 06/03/11

      Be fair here, though Julia Gillard has been very clear about her personal opposition to gay marriage, the official line is that it’s a matter to be decided upon by the party at the National Conference. Assuming that at the conference at the end of this year the Labor Party changes its platform to either support gay marriage or allow a conscience vote on it, I think the only people who’d be seriously outraged by this or consider it a broken promise would be people who would have never voted for her or the ALP anyway. 

      Saying that though, I’m probably not as optimistic as everyone else that Labor will change their platform.  It’s funny how the only things Labor will truly stick to their guns on have to do with unpopular and unfair limitations on civil rights (the internet filter and keeping gay marriage banned).

    • Mitch says:

      11:18am | 06/03/11

      ^ This.  The difference is that Gillard promised it would be decided at the National Convention, which was brought forward from mid-2012 to address this issue alone, and she never explicitly said it wouldn’t happen just that the ALP’s current policy and her own personal view (whether that’s a reflection of the party’s view or not) is that marriage is between a man and woman.

    • Perseus "Percy" Remus says:

      10:43am | 06/03/11

      Hang on David, the government didn’t promise not to legislate for territory rights! This nonsense about “OMG gay marriage and euthanasia by stealth” has been drummed up by Liberals and ALP right-wingers who, to use a Keatingism, are trapped in a time tunnel. What the territories choose to do within their jurisdictions should not be a matter for executive government intervention. If a state legislated for “gay marriage” the Commonwealth would be almost powerless to stop that, save for a definition in the Commonwealth Marriage Act…

    • MarK says:

      10:49am | 06/03/11

      You really have only scratched the surface Penbo.

      Let us review what Julia has on the go at the moment.

      1. A health deal that is not one. She has a heads of agreement. a deal to get together to talk about a deal later.

      One which does not resemble in any way shape or form “the historic” health reforms of Rudd that amounted to nought.

      This will not be pretty in itself

      2. Carbon tax. By July next year she has to get the Greens to agree to something the electorate will swallow. The incoming greens are not cute cuddly ones. They are a lot further to the left than the current crop.

      What will these do? Compromise on their principals or go hard. Given Gillards track record on capitulation I will have a fiver on the go for the jugular.

      3.Boat people. How is that East Timor centre going? The storm season is nearly over. The boats will start up again. Wait till it gets to be public knowledge that they are expanding capacity in Darwin and Darwin will house more boat people than Christmas Island.

      Please explain? (to coin a phrase…ucwatididthar)

      God forbid more boats go down and more people die. She has been warned. The inevitable happened and she has not changed a thing.

      Disgrace.

      4. The flood levy. Having capitulated to Xenophon to get this simplest of ideas through both houses she now has the task of actually collecting and administering the thing.

      Any waste, any bureaucratic stuff up and she will look…...well I was going to say foolish but really it will look typical. The political cover of Fahey will not save her.

      5. The mining Tax. Still nothing decided and the scene of another potential backflip.

      She capitulated yet again in the “negotiations” which much have resembled the mining guys saying we want this and Gillard saying take it…...take it all.

      This is the doosie for me. This issue coupled with the gay marriage mess that will split the Labor party.

      The mining tax as capitulated to is weak as piss. We all know that. She knows that. The Greens more importantly know it.

      The Greens are likely to oppose it as capitulated by Gillard because it does not go far enough. Gillard must backflip on it because she cannot let it go through a s is so bad is the deal.

      And all the while the miners sit there with ad campaigns good to go. The Greens sit there ready to pounce.

      How can she possibly reconcile to the public the need to act on climate change via a carbon tax and yet be weak as piss on the mining tax issue?

      The two positions are ridiculous when juxtaposed.

      So what is it on the mining tax? Sovereign risk and another backflip or impotence and a contradictory position on carbon, mining and the need for action on climate change

      She does not have the capacity to deal with all of the above.

      Sucks to be her.

    • Adam Diver says:

      11:55am | 06/03/11

      I thought that Julia, was showing real leadership qualities, at least that is what the left media had been telling me.

      The real issue is the xenophobic, redneck, hate-mongering,  racist, death-threat encouraging,liberals and shock jocks, stop trying to change the debate!!!

    • persephone says:

      12:53pm | 06/03/11

      Lying again, MarK. All you’ve got, I’m afraid.

      1. Please explain how the health reforms have substanitially changed. The only major change has been to the funding system.

      The core reforms - local control, fee for service, mandated targets - remain.

      2. No, we don’t know what will happen. It’s open for discussion. Heaven forbid that a major economic change like this should be open for discussion and negotiation!

      Who knows, the Libs might change leader and come to the table.

      If they don’t, I don’t see that the government is doing anything wrong with talking to the democratically elected members of Parliament about proposed legislation.

      In a democracy, that’s what’s meant to happen. (But you do have a major problem understanding that whole concept, don’t you? It’s dictatorship by the Liberals or nothing, in your world).

      3. Yes, she stuck with Howard’s solution far too long. Fortunately, she’s come up with a proposal which - if it works, and that’s largely up to our neighbours in the region - will solve many of these problems.

      Meanwhile children are being released from detention and the conditions of refugees have been considerably improved.

      4. X won’t be there after July, so if need be, it’s a simple thing to change the law back. But if not, there’s plenty of ‘out’ clauses - if the states can show the premiums aren’t reasonable, for example.

      Given the high degree of competence Julia showed in the administration of the BER, shouldn’t be a problem.

      5. Yep, it’ll be fun. If the Libs vacate the field, the Greens will dictate even sterner measures on this one. Really looking forward to that money staying in Australia to benefit all taxpayers rather than a few stockholders and foreign multinationals.

      Of course, as always, the Libs can listen to their big business mates and sit down at the table to get a better deal for them.

      Be interesting to see if they can live up to their responsibilties, or are just going to sit there bleating about the Greens having too much influence.

      Influence which (if they had some cojones) they could take away tomorrow.

    • MarK says:

      04:32pm | 06/03/11

      1. The “reform” was taking away the blame game. The threat was to take them over. It was all going to fixed in 2008 if I recall.

      Thre years later NO ACTION.

      You have a heads of agreements.

      You are the lying that is lying. Nothing has been decided. You may be quoting what Gillards wants but the ris NO policy.

      Try again

      2. Gutless leaderless politics is what you are describing. There is no deal as yet. They cannot articulate what they want.

      Only apologists like you defend them. Where is the certainty of the promised tax? Where is the courage. They are so gutless they are going to change peoples behaviour how? By giving back subsidies? So business can charge more? So we can pay more for products made by inefficient energy sources?

      Ridiculous. Disingenuous. And ultimately futile. Like elsewhere the emissions will be exported to countries that do not burden their economy with this farce to fix nothing.

      Jibs will be lost. Government largesse handed out. Mess created.

      it has not worked anywhere.

      And we expect a fool that couldn’t insulate roofs without killing people or burning down houses to run it? A fool that can’t build a canteen for the right price? A fool that can’t run a website? A fool that lies to our faces?

      Yah…..awesome.

      Dictatorship of the liberals….....sounds good. Where do we sign up?

      3. The conditions of refugees constantly improved.

      Lie.

      Overcrowding on Christmas Island. All these mental problems you talk about. 50 dead floating ont he sea off Christmas Island. Record numbers behind razer wire.

      let me borrow a phrase..you fraud, you disgusting fraud.

      How many more have to die before you realise the inhumanity of her programme and the failure of her policies.

      She was going to stop the boats and be tough on border protection.

      Another lie.

      4. A simple thing to change the law back?

      What fantasy world do you live in?

      Your morals are a disgrace.

      What a wonderful place must exist where you excuse the shrill harpy that embarrassingly occupies the PM’s seat for the time being fopr lying. Are you seriously suggesting and condoning a tactic where you just change it all up later?

      That is a keeper for sure.

      Keep the BER spin alive….keep holding onto that dream.

      Pathetic.

      5. Oh I see. It is all the Liberals fault. See the money stay in Australia? What? LAWL You condone lying so I guess another lie on the mining tax is not an issue for you.

      You are a disgrace pers.

      No country can have their leader lie about things. She is like Gadaffi it seems though. Has some sycophants so rusted on that sovereign risk is a minor issue and integrity is something that the “other side” need to show. Anything she says is open to change and propaganda wins out over substance.

      What a joke.

      You have just embarrassed yourself publicly. You really need to get better at this and read what you write. Don’t try and be better than me. It will not work.

    • Nanna from Vyle Bay says:

      10:50am | 06/03/11

      There is no such thing as a gay marriage as there are only unhappy marriage.
      Labor will win the next federal election in an electoral landslide over mass media favorites the Liberal Party.

    • LAD says:

      01:28pm | 06/03/11

      mass media favourites the Liberal Party? WOW thats a new one. Gillard gets a little bit of backlash for lying to the Nation and the Libs according to you are media favourites? Really? They mabe the Nations favourites according to the polls but the media’s? Very interesting point of view Nanna,

    • Mouse says:

      07:16pm | 06/03/11

      LAD, I think Nanna has her tongue in her cheek!

    • It's Simmo says:

      07:33pm | 06/03/11

      How do you stop gay people from having sex?

      Let them get married.

      If this was going to have any affect on the gene pool, it probably would work…

    • Gregg says:

      10:56am | 06/03/11

      @ Penbo,
      I am lead a little to wonder about the strength of your belief mate for with
      ” and I fail to see how the fact that two blokes can tie the knot in anyway undermines the sanctity of the institution for straight folks. “

      What about all those ladies who some we might pine for being lost to us blokes!

      One standout exception though and she ain’t built too well for doing backflips, though a cartwheeel she may try and try she may for whilst manuevering with many hands on the wheel is going to have its resultant weaving, short of middle east people power revolts Tony and all disenchanted people will just have to suck it up until the next election and even the faceless murmerers know that and Juliar knows it too

    • Nanna from Vyle Bay says:

      10:59am | 06/03/11

      Liberal will never beat Labor ever again without the mass media.
      The Liberal Party and the Mass media have a gay marriage.

    • Adam Diver says:

      01:47pm | 06/03/11

      What exactly do you define as the mass media?

    • Richard says:

      10:59am | 06/03/11

      I think this is one area in which the PM could safely backflip, because there is solid ground for her to land on (the rationale for gay marriage outlined by Penbo being solid), and if the coalition tried to persecute her too hard for allowing gay people to have greater happiness in their lives, then it could well backfire for them.

      I think the coalition’s best hope lies in keeping as tight a focus on the everyday cost of living and economic issues of Australians, so I would think that if the Government did backflip on gay marriage, the opposition would be best served in letting that one go through to the keeper for the most part.

    • Alicia says:

      11:46am | 06/03/11

      I’m for gay marriage - they can do what they want, doesn’t affect me in the slightest.

    • Holly says:

      11:52am | 06/03/11

      You are being somewhat disingenuous in making the quantum leap between reinstating the rights of the territories to legislate on these matters and actually legislating for gay marriage.  Is that really the sort of tactic the ever desperate coalition has to stoop to.  Making false assertion in the hope that the less politically educated of heir followers will jump on some hysterical bandwagon.
      I think you will find this will be a fizzer for the coalition.  Quite clearly the majority of people in the country have consistently been supportive of both voluntary euthanasia and gay marriage.  If the legislation to amend the current marriage act is put forward by a private member in the federal parliament then so be it.  Either it will be voted on along party lines, people may cross the floor or a conscience vote may occur.  So how is this a backflip by Julia Gillard?

      The proposed legislation on the rights of the territories does not seem to me to be related to this possibility, but hey don’t let the truth get in the way of a damaging headline..

      Let’s not forget the territories were originally stripped of these rights by the coalition so why should they not be reinstated.

    • brian m says:

      12:23pm | 06/03/11

      I think that the only thing the PM has done by highlighting the policy differences between Labor and the Greens is to give us advance notice of what further back-flips are coming our way.

    • Just the facts please says:

      12:33pm | 06/03/11

      Last time I looked gay marriage was not supported by the coalition nor by labor.
      This is unlikely to change until after the next party conference which I believe is in December for labor.
      In light of this, isn’t trying to anticipate what labor will have for a policy a desperate political ploy by the opposition?

    • jf says:

      01:00pm | 06/03/11

      The Labor Party promotes itself as the progressive, the tolerant party, the party for the marginalised. No, I don’t buy it either, but this is their position.

      And yet they still oppose gay marriage. How can you have a meaningful discussion with a party that fancies itself as progressive and still opposes gay marriage.

      The Coalition oppose gay marriage on principal. At least you can have a meaningful debate on matters of principal.

      Who would you rather have: the ALP/Greens who won’t introduce a policy that they believe in or the coalition who oppose it on principal.

    • Just the facts please says:

      01:32pm | 06/03/11

      jf
      I agree when you say
      “The Labor Party promotes itself as the progressive, the tolerant party, the party for the marginalised” They most certainly represent those values more than the conservatives.
      However, being progressive and tolerant does not mean that you automatically endorse every marginalised group, nor does it mean you support every cause to cross your desk.
      Social issues like the ones we as a nation are dealing with require consensus from individuals within the different political parties. individual politicians most often act on principal as evidenced by opposing views being put forward at national party conferences on both sides to determine party policy on the issues of the day. The greens endorse gay marriage, Labor and Liberal alike currently do not
      . If only things were as simple as you make them out to be. The bottom line is both major political parties do not support gay marriage at present. You suggest that the Labor government should be progressive on all things.. Interesting position, but I would have to give you a fail due to a logic fault.

    • Kaz says:

      12:49pm | 06/03/11

      As I understand it, no-one (Green or otherwise) is asking Julia to do a backflip on gay marriage.
      The only proposal under consideration is legisation that gives the ACT and NT governments the same rights as any other state in this country.  That is, the right to enact their own legislation without fear of it being negated by the Federal Govt.
      It’s just a case that ‘some’ ignoramuses are afraid that people in those territories may use that ‘freedom’ (ie the same freedom as held in all other states) to vote for gay marriage or euthanasia.  Talk about scaretactics and rumourmongering gone mad!
      As said the other states already have these rights - have they enacted such legisation?  has the sky fallen in?  why should residents of the ACT and NT be treated any differently?

    • BobM says:

      03:21pm | 06/03/11

      Well, Kaz, the Territories are not separate and independent States as recognized in our constitution. They are part of the Commonwealth responsibility and are thus, by definition, subject to veto by the Commonwealth in certain areas. So they have less than full rights because they are not States and they are treated differently because they are not States. The ACT, just like the Northern Territory have had the opportunity to become States - the Federal Constitution outlines the means to do this and it has been tried once and rejected in the NT. Of course, with the fuller rights of State-hood also comes far more responsibility. The Northern Territorians, in their wisdom decided that they preferred the status quo (ie Federal government handouts) to any change. But both Territories have the right to go for State-hood if they want it as well as the responsiblity - the fact that they have not done so indicates that they are not prepared to take this step.

    • Old Bert, with fence strainers says:

      01:38pm | 06/03/11

      Pembo, It’s clear that you have a habit of creating ‘segways’, Maaaaaaaate! This one being mostly the lead ‘Gay marriage” paragraph, into the Gillard ‘backflip’. The photo, attributed to Sandra Mu,  what with one ‘partner’ with face pimples, not an encouraging metaphor (if intended)  for hygenic ideals (if any) of an alternative population. Please Pembo, let this be the limit of photographs, to not include behaviour of ‘males’, in such a situation, or I’ll vomit. There are others who’ll vomit too. Of course,  there’s still a confusion over “gay”. (WTF is that, last time I looked it was carefree, happy, or bright). So, this and future governments should respect the rights of ‘gay’ people, “homosexuals”. End of story, not the end of the so called ‘debate’. Let the futility of the forthcoming words continue.

    • malleeringneck says:

      01:43pm | 06/03/11

      The problem with the gays is the same as with all other minorites, they are forcing an issue into our face about which most of us could not give a rats a***.
      Most of us have far more pressing problems like the continual increase in cost of living, mainly through the increase in the cost of utilities, petrol and food.
      I would be much happier if the government concentrated on these issues instead of gay marriage.

    • Tom D says:

      04:05pm | 06/03/11

      Believe me, as soon as the government gives gay people all the rights that our heterosexual brothers and sisters take for granted you’ll never hear another peep out of us. 

      Speaking of cost of living, my family has spent in the tens of thousands of dollars on visas and school fees trying to keep my American born partner in the country, and he still can’t quite yet qualify for permanent residency. If we could marry in Australia we wouldn’t have to go to great length to prove that we’ve been living together and financially interdependent for over a year, the marriage certificate would be enough. He’d have gotten permanent residency long ago and I wouldn’t be kept up at night, sick in the stomach wondering what’ll happen to us. 

      It’s things like this that make gay marriage so important. It might not affect many people, but it does tremendous harm to those it does affect.

    • PaulB says:

      05:08pm | 06/03/11

      As one of your Gays with problems I actually agree with you entirely.  I have been 26 years in the same relationship and the concept of “getting married” has never occurred to us until this issue began being pushed as a convenent distraction from other, more important issues.  The only benefit I can see from a marriage of some kind would be legal protections, which we pretty much have anyway.  Anything else would putting on some show of affirmation of our relationship for all to see.  We just don’t need that, and aren’t interested in Grandstanding.  Everytime they want a distraction out comes the “Gay Marriage” debate.  This weeks distraction is Gillard’s bald-faced lying over the carbon tax.  That’s way the issue never gets resolved in the affirmative:  it would then be lost to them as a distraction.

    • marley says:

      06:18pm | 06/03/11

      @PaulB - I had a gay colleague a few years ago, who desperately wanted a marriage act that would, first, legally confirm his commitment to his long-time partner, but second, greatly simplify pensions, health care coverage,  spousal entitlements in country and abroad (his partner worked for an international NGO).  He never wanted to encroach on the churches/mosques/temples view of marriage. He just wanted the same legal standing as anyone married in a civil ceremony has.  Fortunately, being Canadian, he was able to get that marriage and the simplification of legal standing that civil marriage entails.

      I honestly cannot see the issue.  And when people talk about more pressing problems, I say, right, lets not waste time on this one, sign it into law and get on with the stuff that governments should really be about - defence, economic growth, indigenous issues, environment. 

      To quote a certain poiltician back in Canada, “there’s no place for the state in the bedrooms of the nation.”  Let people who want to get married, get married.

    • Pudel says:

      07:58pm | 06/03/11

      @Tom D, I know you see a marriage certificate as a way to solve your problems, but in truth it is not proof (in immigrations eyes) that you are in a real relationship.  I know an Australian who married an American and they have chosen to live in Australia, like you they had to jump through hoops, then jump back through them again.  Some things they were asked to do they could not do because they were not up to that step yet, when they told their case worker this the case worker admitted to knowing that, but they needed proof they were really genuine.  Proving you actually are in a “real’ relationship to immigration is an excrutiatting process.  I wish you and your partner luck.

    • Catching up says:

      02:55pm | 06/03/11

      “Marriage is very much a religious institution. You hate “
      Christians/Christianity then why love the institution? If you disagree with….”
      I believe if you study the bible, marriage has little to do with religion.  In the bible, is alleged that god told his followers to respect the union between man and woman, but nowhere does the bible say that god created marriage. Marriage has existed in all cultures and races since time memorial.  The institution is rooted in civil, tribal or community law, not the bible.  Marriage was recognised by the Catholic Church only about six centuries ago when it was declared a Sacrament.  This is a church law, not one handed down by god, with its roots in the bible.
      Some European countries to this day recognise there is a difference between church and civic, marriage.
      What people are requesting now is a change to the civil law, it has nothing to do with religion.
      Personally myself, what they want does not affect me and is really non of my business. I would like to add, not with my tongue in my cheek, why do anyone, including a marriage’s between men and women, want to get marriage.  I and many others are quite capable of being true in a relationship without false security of marriage.

    • Joel B1 says:

      04:11pm | 06/03/11

      I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. Until the media depicts gays as more than really cute young girls having a snog then you’re kidding yourselves about acceptance

      How about a pic of two guys, of say, Bob Browns age swapping spit?

    • marley says:

      06:20pm | 06/03/11

      Anybody Bob Brown’s age “swapping spit” with anyone, female or male, is not going to turn anyone one.  But I daresay the sight of you swapping spit with anyone would be just as much a turn off.  And your point is???

    • Diamantina Dick says:

      04:17pm | 06/03/11

      I think she can afford the backflip, she already has no credibility left worth worrying about and as already seen here several times, nobody really cares any more.

      Question is, what will be the next gay attention seeking campaign, and when they marry, who gets to take the other’s surname?

    • Anne says:

      05:48pm | 06/03/11

      flip away julia. as long as its in the right direction the more you flip the more i’ll clap.

    • Blazes says:

      06:40pm | 06/03/11

      The problem is that Gillard isn’t doing enough in making the case against gay marriage - she should draw on things like this excellent paper (http://ssrn.com/abstract=1722155) so she can persuade people within her own party that she is right on this issue, that way her problem is solved.

    • Danny says:

      09:20am | 07/03/11

      Way to argue your point!

      Posting a TL;DR link, but not describing you point of view.

    • Steve of Cornubia says:

      07:48pm | 06/03/11

      I’m not surprised that gay marriage is such an important issue for lefties. For many years now, it has been a divisive issue. Many people want marriage to be preserved as a traditional institution, entered into by a man and a woman. I am one such person and, like many of my conservative friends, I am not anti-gay - I just want marriage to be preserved in its age-old principles.

      However, lefties can’t abide people who don’t share their world view. Had gay marriage been less controversial among conservative types, they wouldn’t have been interested, but once identified as something that conservatives are uncomfortable with, they latched on like a starving croc. Never willing to just live their lives their way, like religious zealots they are driven to force their way of life and their way of thinking onto the rest of us - thinking yourself morally superior does that. Hence, gay marriage is just another line in the sand that lefties MUST obliterate - no compromise is allowed. Gays have won many rights in recent years, but they are forgotten now - gay marriage is just the latest ideological battleground.

    • Grumpy says:

      08:37am | 07/03/11

      Could you be any more full of shit. Like those who call themselves “the right” dont jump and down with the bible in hand about this issue. Theyre the only ones who care. By the opinion of someone like yourself you would consider me leftist, but I dont particularly think gay people should get married, nor anyone who is not religious. Left and right only exist in your mind mate, not in the real world.

    • Kelvin says:

      07:50pm | 06/03/11

      Why not another backflip and lie - she will argue it is only semantics and that everyone agrees with her.

      She is a complete disgrace now - why not add to it and give Bob what he wants.

    • Against the Man says:

      09:30pm | 06/03/11

      Gillard is hopeless, useless and pointless. She hasn’t sorted health care out (no deals signed and sealed) and she wants to talk about carbon tax, gay marriage etc. Like Rudd she is all over the place, promising everything to everyone and delivering nothing to no one. There needs to be people pressure to get her out before we have to fund her non-deserved pension!

    • Pete J says:

      10:29pm | 06/03/11

      Talking about broken promises misses the point, we punished Labor at the last election for not having neither courage nor conviction. How many votes do you think Gillard ‘won’ for her gutless stance on climate change or gay marriage?  Far fewer than she lost.  There are decent people disappointed by her change in stance, but I wager there were more who were disappointed by the Labor parties abandonment of its values in the first place.  Those most full of rage are conservatives who wouldn’t have voted for her in the first place.

      I’d rather Labor die standing by its convictions than die abandoning them.

    • michael j says:

      12:38am | 07/03/11

      edit this ,,,how fucked up is this conversation,, scientist say by 2100 this planet we call earth will barely be able to be lived on,,,scientist say by 2048 4 billion people will stave to death on this planet and nothing can be done about it,,
      but the best we can come up with is weather homosexuals,,ap 2.5% of the population can marry in a Christian church or in a mosque,, according to the old testamentary no they carn’t ,,,wouldn’t it be better vibes having a civil ceremony on a picnic table by the bloody beach ,,then racing off home to continue working on proper gating the species without a fu—ing testube

    • pete says:

      08:24am | 07/03/11

      you know, I’m really starting to appreciate how people in same sex relationships and with terminal illness feel about these issues. 

      I live in the ACT and I got quiet excited about this Bill. Which, correct me if I’m wrong was to make it more difficult for the Federal Govt to overturn laws passed by Territorial assemblies. 
      This has happened twice n the ACT.  The irony of all this is when self government went to a referendum in the ACT (twice) it was defeated both times, so self government was then foisted upon us.
      So looking at both topics that have popped up here, the right to die with dignity and the right to have a binding relationship with someone you love. Can I ask a third and question of all you commentators who do not live in a Territory ?

      Why am I not entitled to the same rights as someone who lives in a state?

      That is the question that needs to be asked.  The other two important subjects are just issues used to hijack this debate and scare the politicians, regardless of their political affiliations

    • Ray says:

      11:01am | 07/03/11

      The concern by those trying to maintain ‘old’ Labor values,  about the direction of the Labor Govt is fully warranted.  Its leader obviously is kowtowing to the Greens, who know what they are doing.

      By agreeing to support a Greens bill to water down the Commonwealth’s ability to veto laws made by the territories,  thus facilitating the territories passing legislation to legalise gay marriage, the PM effectively would break another of her election promises, namely to oppose the legalisation of gay marriage. The passage of territories euthanasia legalisation bills would also be facilitated.

      While Gillard’s capitulation to the Greens may guarantee her political future in the short term,  it would surprise if, by so doing, she continues to maintain the support of her party and the electorate in the longer term.  The PM has some deep thinking to do.

    • joeyjoejoejny says:

      11:48am | 07/03/11

      Here’s question, I’ve yet to see a reasonable answer to: If we rub out the line in the sand that says Marriage is between a Man and a Woman… where do we redraw it? and most importantly on what justification do we redraw it there?
      If a Man and a Man can marry (or a Woman and Woman) then why shouldn’t a Man and his sister or a Man an multiple wives?
      So… Gay population, where would you like the line drawn and can you support it with your current (flawed) logic on rights and equality?

    • James1 says:

      12:04pm | 07/03/11

      Logically, given that polyamory is not illegal, if one were to legalise gay marriage, there would be no impediment to allowing polygamy and polyandry.  Incestuous relationships, however, are illegal.  As such, they are a different matter.  Gay and polyamorous relationships are not.

    • joeyjoejoejnr says:

      02:42pm | 07/03/11

      James1 - Hence the wider point on this… and one of the reasons some of us want to protect what’s left of marriage as it stands.
      Once you accept that Marriage isn’t just about a Man and Women you open it up for a complete redefinition. The issues here are largely - on what do you base the redefinition - you don’t have to agree with all of the following list, but surely you connect with just one:
      History - Man And Women
      Tradition - Man and Women
      Religion - Man and Women
      Nature - Marriage is an important tool, not just for reproduction but for care, protection, education and development of young ones (it aint perfect but it works)
      There is a lot to lose in redefining it and not much to gain. The current institute of marriage should be protected (we’ve already eroded it so much through lax laws on divorse) .

    • Hannah says:

      12:52pm | 07/03/11

      I’m so over all this,you have your Mardi Gra,that you complain about EVERY damn year the the “straights” are ruining it,bugger off with the marriage..most of you can’t even hold a relationship,you go through men like it’s just nothing,a lot of you cannot stand children,your self obsessed and bitchy(which many of you seem to like)what the hell is wrong with you all,stick to your crap and we will stick to ours.

    • Eleanor says:

      01:33pm | 07/03/11

      This is why we can’t have nice things.

    • Dandy says:

      01:48pm | 07/03/11

      What a charming woman you must be. Willing to bet you don’t need to worry about the marriage act yourself! Surely no man would want to marry such a self-centered, small minded b*itch.

    • Hannah says:

      03:23pm | 07/03/11

      lol@Dandy..see pure example..retract the claws fool.

    • MattFromOz says:

      01:52pm | 07/03/11

      Why should the basic human right of equality take a back-step to discussing a Carbon Tax? If this was about equal rights for women or aboriginals or muslims, it would be a different story I imagine. You say you are in favour of same-sex marriage in one sentence and then say there are more important things to do first, seems like a complete cop-out to me.

    • neil says:

      02:16pm | 07/03/11

      I have no issue with gay relationships to me it comes down to proper use of language.

      I could call myself Aboriginal, but I’m not because being a white Australian is not what Aboriginal means. I could demand that because I do my own tax I be called a CPA, and if they agreed, would I really be a CPA?

      Gay people may want to call themselves married but they won’t be because that is not what married means.

      To me gays hijacking marriage is about attention seeking and stirring the pot as they already have the same legal rights as a defacto hetro couple. If you don’t like the rules for marriage don’t join that club, form your own club and get your own word.

    • MattFromOz says:

      02:30pm | 07/03/11

      gay people do not have the asme legal rights as defacto hetero couples AT ALL! You should check your facts before making an idiot of yourself mate. Your comparisons are about as credible as your intellect. You couldn’t demand to be called a Chartered Practicing Accountant as you are not a “Chartered’ Accountant. I am a white Australian with aboriginal blood, so why can’t I call myself aboriginal? Well in fact I can. Your arguments are as patheic as any others I have read here today, but at least the others were honest about their homophobia. You are hiding behind political correctness by saying you have no issue with gay relationships when it is onvious that you do.

    • neil says:

      02:51pm | 07/03/11

      Well Matt I was told that by a Gay lawyer mate, I guess you know more about the law than he does.

      No I’m not a CPA and you can’t ever marry a man, even if they change the law it still won’t be true, live with it.

    • Truth says:

      02:53pm | 07/03/11

      The amount of uninformed opinion on here is astounding. In the same-sex marriage debate, if you are not gay then your opinion is quite worthless - sorry but that’s the truth. Leave the politicians to make informed decisions and laws by listening to those that the decisions and laws actually effect. They will not effect you Stephen (8:45am 6/3/11) or you Alannah (3:05pm 6/3/11).

      And just to clarify something for you Barry (4:49pm 6/3/11). GRID was the name given to the mystery disease that was becoming increasingly common amongst the gay community in San Francisco in the late 1970s and early 1980s. This was later labelled the 4H disease as scientists at the CDC in the USA determined that it was not strictly a Gay Related Immune Deficiency problem. They realised the virus was effecting an alarmingly high number of Haitians, Hemopheliacs, Herion users and Homosexuals. By September 1982 scientists began to use the term AIDS as neither of the earlier terms seemed appropriate.

      However, for many decades (possibly as early as the beginning of the 19th century) the cause of AIDS - HIV - was already causing the disease to spread in Central African nations like Cameroon and the Republic of Congo. Hardly seems like only a gay related immune deficiency problem now does it?
      FYI: I am gay.

    • Hannah says:

      03:35pm | 07/03/11

      It’s the way in which gay men in particular have sex that makes them higher risk,and the amount of partners they go through,also in Africa it is the fact they are not educated in safe sex.

    • joeyjoejoejnr says:

      03:53pm | 07/03/11

      Wrong “Truth”... Same Sex marriage requires a redefining of Marriage as it currently stands. For those that are married, that means a lot. I want to protect the historical, traditional, natural and religious meaning of Marriage. And if you want to change it, it means a lot to me and therefor my opinion is valid and far from worthless.

    • Fairsnotfair says:

      03:05pm | 07/03/11

      I do NOT want to be the teacher who has to instruct my class about the necessity to accept the weirdness that is “gay marriage”. Why should it fall to the curriculum to spread the happy word about sexual preference?

      I am proudly heterosexual and I do not accept the suggestion made earlier in this forum that schools should be used to promote the issue of same sex ‘marriage’.

    • Hetro Pride says:

      03:50pm | 07/03/11

      “gay people do not have the same legal rights as defacto hetero couples”

      Nor should they…they’re freaks.

    • chucky says:

      03:57pm | 07/03/11

      A famous Olympic swimmer Twittered a while ago that a rival sporting team were “faggots”. “Faggot” is “just a word” after all (with an original meaning having nothing whatsoever to do with the homosexual lifestyle), and the swimmer’s comment had no sexual connotations whatsoever, yet many in the gay community were in an uproar.

      Clearly the use of this word has enough significance in certain circles (just as the word “marriage” also has enough significance in certain circles . . .) to be considered highly offensive when used in a manner deemed by these people to be grossly inappropriate - yet many of these same people see no problem whatsoever with using the word “marriage” in a manner considered in other circles to be grossly inappropriate, and therefore highly offensive.

      Hypocrites much?

    • Mary says:

      10:23pm | 07/03/11

      I’m a lesbian who has no interest in emulating the heterosexual institution of marriage, but I understand that some lesbians and gays desire marriage and believe that it’s their right. I also think that lesbian and gay marriage is inevitable so can we please just get on with legislating it so that we can focus on more important things, such as the appallingly high rate of lesbian and gay youth suicide? In fact, I have no doubt that excluding lesbians and gays from basic rights such as the right to marry contributes to that awful statistic. All the more reason to just get over it and get it done.

    • Hannah says:

      08:52am | 08/03/11

      Yes..about that suicide rate,I have seen gay people judged and bullied into taking their own lives in the actual gay community by gays themselves,like a pack of henpeckers.It made me sick…but we don’t hear gay people harping on about that now do we?That you destroy you own,gosh if that was a straight person it would be all over the papers.

 

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