Flexitarian: it’s vegetarianism for meat eaters

James In Footscray says:

09:18am | 21/09/11

Hey Acotrel, I couldn’t agree more about killjoys. Drinking? Smoking? Junk food? Get off our backs, it’s our lives!
However, eating meat has one difference - creatures who feel things suffer and die for our pleasure. This has to be in the equation.

marina says:

11:23am | 21/09/11

to acotrel:
you find joy in meat-rich diet and having a real cows milk in you coffee, hey I understand that, you are not the only one. But why can’t YOU understand that some people are just not into meat (or milk for that matter) simply because they are not attracted to the taste of it?
The biggest killjoy for me would be having a slab of meat on my plate instead of my favourite vegetarian assortment. By the way I am not into rabbit food and don’t like lettice much. There are so many proper filling dishes that don’t include flesh ,  maybe you should try someday just to keep your mind open a little bit.

Al says:

11:56am | 21/09/11

@marina

Because those of us who enjoy meat etc aren’t generally telling everyone else how to live their lives.

Amy says:

12:10pm | 21/09/11

Did you even read this article?
“According to the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organisation, livestock production accounts for more than eight per cent of global human water use.”
Being a global citizen that cares about the state of the planet that houses and feeds and waters us is hardly a killjoy. Congratulations on the most selfish, arrogant post possible.

LC says:

12:44pm | 21/09/11

Amy, all of the water used goes right back through the water cycle, none of it disappears, none of it is wasted.

Thank you for proving his point though.

Silver says:

12:47pm | 21/09/11

@Amy

I agree that trying to limit personal impact is a noble and worthy goal, but there is an obvious problem with that line of argument.  Namely, all food requires water, land and resources to produce.  The most resource intensive food may well be meat, but it is only an obvious limit because there are so many humans alive today.  Even if every single person on Earth gave up meat today, if nothing is done to control human population, then in a few generations we will be right back at the same problem, and the next biggest consumer of water (rice, maybe?) will be in the what we have to limit for the good of the planet.

So, why not target the root of the problem, and limit humans?  Cancel the baby bonus.  Provide aid to educate girls and women in developing countries.  Cheap and effective contraception.  More funding into a male contraception pill.

Seth Brundle says:

04:38pm | 21/09/11

Silver beat me to it.  So many of the problems in the world today result in people demanding that we “ban” this or “limit” that., all the while avoiding the whole source of the problem - too many people.  Any attempt to solve these problems without at least adressing the population issue are pointless, yet it remains the elephant in the room.

Jed says:

05:05pm | 21/09/11

Hey I’m wit you man, I smoke Havannas like ciggies, since I was 15, and Ilike a heavily marbled steak. What you talkin man, soy wit coffee. Hey the only color for coffee is black man, not me, you understand. Vegetables? Gimmie thin fries with melted cheese side dip anytime. An if you want greens, do the BLT next day, for breakfast. All done man. Now, excuse me, nurse said it’s time again for the oxygen tubes, damn this ornery wheelchair, just like a shopping trolley as I remember. Yo’all keep well now, y’hear.

Tina says:

07:46am | 21/09/11

I dont know anyone who really eats meat on a daily basis.

Whereas I am not fussed with the meat or no meat issue (I am happy either way) the article basically says that there are too many people to be fed and that meat productions is costing too many resources.

I wonder when we finally accept that maybe we are just too many people in general? We always look for solutions to accommodate for humanity until we face the next barrier. How about cutting back on humanity?

Fiddler says:

08:27am | 21/09/11

Really? Most people I know eat meat on a daily basis. I find that if I have a meal without meat I need to eat a lot more to feel full. As for too many people. I agree. Drastically reduce immigration and tell the rest of the world that overpopulation is a country by country issue. Why it is our problem that India could well crack 2 billion is a mystery to me.

Blind Freddy says:

08:43am | 21/09/11

I know people (particularly kids) that say they are eating “vegeterian” because they happen to eat something without meat in it. It is as if they are trying something strange and unusual. They seem to believe that if their food does not have meat in it that it is somehow not a meal.

Tina says:

09:00am | 21/09/11

Fiddler

I am easy with any kind of diet. I just dont like the argument of increasing population. This will become an issue one day or the other and it will be more painful to address when our population is completely unsustainable (which it already is in some areas). But as you said, how do you want to bring the point across in some countries? But I think this might get ugly one day.

Swingdog says:

09:29am | 21/09/11

Re: overpopulation. Assuming we’re doing this because of the drain on the planet’s resources, right?

If that’s the case, then you might want to start culling Australians, Americans and Western Europeans first, as they consume the bulk of those resources.

I say, start with the Gold Coast. They’re all old there anyway.

Direct says:

09:56am | 21/09/11

I did something similar to Fiddler. I cut out wheat and diary and have never felt better. I’ve gone one step further and eliminated all carbs, particularly after listening to an interview with interventional cardiologist Dr William Davies recently where he said the following:

“One of the very, very dominant important causes of coronary
atherosclerosis (heart disease) is something called small LDL particles. There’s only two ways to get small LDL particles, and that’s
genetically or carbohydrates.”

Cut the carbs, drastically cut your chances of heart disease.

acotrel says:

10:05am | 21/09/11

@Tina & Fiddler
In Australia, we don’t have big enough markets for our produce, and farmers have quotas applied to them.

acotrel says:

10:10am | 21/09/11

@Swingdog
‘I say, start with the Gold Coast. They’re all old there anyway. ‘

Great idea !  And we could get them to withdraw all the superannuation they have invested in the stock market, and pay it into consolidated revenue tp pay your welfare benefits ?

Matthew says:

10:41am | 21/09/11

Everyone’s so worried about what they should or shouldn’t be eating to minimise their chance of getting heart disease, high blood pressure, diabetes, cancer, liver disease, kidney disease etc.

Eat a balanced diet and hope you don’t have bad genes and you’ll make it to a ripe old age (assuming you’re destined to die of “natural” causes).

What makes me laugh the most is the people worried about an animal being killed “humanely”.  They’re animals, not humans.  If you think they should be treated humanely than you should also let them loose and be free to do whatever they like (including eating junk food in front of your tv).  It’s also funny that people are concerned that an animal is having it’s throat slit without being stunned.  I’m pretty sure the cheetah’s in Africa don’t use a stun gun on a gazelle before puncturing it’s neck.

At the end of the day, if you’re seriously concerned about animal welfare or the environment, don’t have kids.  Then there will be less people in future generations to trample on plants and eat meat or plants.

Swingdog says:

11:31am | 21/09/11

@acotrel No welfare benefits here, but thanks for the concern.

Might want to also turn up your sense-o-humour-meter a little. Or get one.

PsychoHyena says:

11:55am | 21/09/11

Okay so we should stop eating meat according to the article because it uses over 8% of global human water usage. So if everyone in the world was to go vegetarian, what would be the percentage of water and land usage for providing the grains, vegetables and fruits required to feed 4.5b people?

Now considering that with the lack of people eating meat you would then end up with massive over-population of animals, what do you do here? Cull them and let the meat go to waste?

I am of the thought that yes humans are wasting too much food and that humans are beginning to over-populate, and if a vegetarian diet is so much healthier etc then we’re likely to see a massive population boom should everyone switch to a vegetarian diet.

Jason Todd says:

08:15am | 21/09/11

Just out of interest JRR, if there existed lab grown meat that was crafted in a laboratory on a large scale with no sufferring to animals, would you then revert back to eating meat?

Throw the question open to all Vego-Punchers - Would you eat lab grown meat?

Blind Freddy says:

08:56am | 21/09/11

@Jason Todd

It is an interesting dilemma that you raise.

In an Arthur C. Clarke short story (can’t remember the name) they developed a meat product in the manner you stated. However, the meat was based on human flesh. Humanburger anyone?

The “Restaurant at the End of the Universe” also touched on a similar dilemma with the production of animals that wanted to be eaten and were offended if you refused.

There are multiple reasons for not eating meat and animal suffering is one, health benefits are another. Eating the neuro-chemical, hormonal and viral contents of a closely related mammal should be avoided.

JuliaRosieRochelle says:

09:12am | 21/09/11

@JT, guilt free meat? Yes I would. ‘Crafted in a lab’ sounds chemical laden though. If it was a healthy option and no harm to animals then yes.

TChong says:

09:16am | 21/09/11

JT
only on a bun with HP sauce- makes any meal a feast.

bec says:

10:20am | 21/09/11

How would lab-created meat be any less healthy than those soy-substitutes? Fakin’? Tofu? I’ve seen substitute meat; nothing natural-looking about that.

If it comes in a box or needs a picture of the product on the label, it’s probably not worth eating.

Nom says:

10:38am | 21/09/11

@bec - Tofu isn’t created in a lab. Enough said?

adam says:

11:03am | 21/09/11

@Chongy, can’t find the article now, but the manufacturers of that most wonderous of condiments have changed the recipe to make it “healthier”. Apparently they have reduced the salt content, however the British market is up in arms as it has apparently changed the taste as well

Matthew says:

11:07am | 21/09/11

JRR, I’m curious about a few things…

“misery it causes to animals”, could you explain the misery they go through?  Being kept in a paddock their whole life?  Oh wait, they don’t know any different (the same as a child without TV).  Being stunned and quickly killed by having their throat slit?  Animals in the wild are treated worse.

“and the damage the meat and dairy industry is doing to the planet.”  What damage?  The land that is cleared would be cleared for grain etc if people on ate plants anyway.  The gas emissions is because of the demand (overpopulation) not because of the industry itself.  It’s not like the cattle industry is dumping chemicals (other than water) into rivers, creating nuclear waste or anything else.

libertarina vegetarian says:

11:32am | 21/09/11

@Jason Todd
Whislt there would be no ethical issue with eating lab grown meat (unless a meat “starter” is required), I wouldn’t eat it.
I haven’t intentionally consumed meat in 15 years and I have long since lost any desire to eat it. On the odd occassion I have bitten into meat (ie restaurants accidentally serving spring rolls with meat etc) I can taste it immediately and it is NOT a pleasant taste. About as revolting as the few puffs of a ciggie I had after quitting for 5 years.  Yuck!
Whilst I enjoy meat analogues, they generally don’t really taste like meat, they just serve the same purpose for texture etc.
I am also signifigantly healthier than I was 15 years ago so there is clearly no health reasons to eat meat. I regularly monitor my levels of iron, b12 etc which have always been good and my cholesterol is perfect. Doctors always congratulate me on my results, at which point I like to shake them up by telling them I don’t eat meat or dairy products.

I would certainly have no issues with anyone else eating vat grown meat. I find meat eaters who say they wouldnt eat it because they find the idea gross to be quite odd. How can you find that gross but not find the idea of eating a dead anmlal gross?

libertarian vegetarian says:

12:03pm | 21/09/11

@ Matthew
You really can’t be that stupid? 
Have you ever looked into how chickens are reared? Hundreds of thousands of them packed into sheds with barely enough room to turn around.  Producing tonnes of poo and urine every day. Look into pig farming, again, rows upon rows of pigs in tiny stalls, unable to turn around, again producing massive amounts of waste and creating sullage pits which pollute the local environment and destroy waterways if they run off into them. 
Abbatoirs use millions of litres everyday. Ever walked past a butcher shop at closing time and been assauled by the stench of the chlorine bleach they a pouring over everything and strainght down the drains.  You don’t need to clean a fruit shop with bleach.

Loulou says:

12:38pm | 21/09/11

@Matthew: I’ll explain the misery the animals go through: most of them are NOT (particularly chickens and pigs) free to roam in paddocks throughout their lives, instead they are confined to tiny cages with no room to move. They never see the light of day. Many animals are not stunned either and chickens simply have their heads ripped off.

As for environmental damage, the amount of crops fed to livestock can is enough to wipe out famine globally. An acre of Amazonian rainforest is destroyed every minute to create land for livestock grazing due to the ever-increasing demand for cheap meat. And having worked on a dairy farm I can assure you that the emissions from bovine excrement are extremely toxic. Dairies also use a LOT of water due to the constant washing away of excrement. This waste ends up in our waterways.

Shane says:

01:28pm | 21/09/11

@libertarina vegetarian

You’re kidding right?

Have you seen the effects on a waterway from fertilizers that have run off from farms producing brussells sprouts? 

Your argument that chook poo and urine is absurd.  Here’s a little bit of science for you.  Chooks don’t urinate you idiot.

Don’t bother with the argument that your “organic” food is fertilizer free either.  There’s a simple problem that growing things in dirt diminishes the minerals in the dirt, causes pH inbalances and all sorts of undesirable things.  The simple faacts for your simple uneducated mind is that all dirt used for growing needs to be fertilized, and for the idiots who think that “organic” food is the way to go, one of the most common forms of fertilization is manure from chooks and ruminants.

By the way, plastic is organic, do you eat that too?

Jason Todd says:

02:14pm | 21/09/11

Libertarian Vego - Define ‘Meat Starter” are you suggesting the use of a seed steak? Or would it be acceptable if say, blood harvested from a live animal or tissue harvested from a dead animal (that died naturally) were used?

From what I have heard, the science is getting there, and lab grown chicken might not be as far off as people think.

Your mention of blood numbers reminded me of a story I like to drop on vegetarians - Years ago I used to live with a vego chick who swore up and down that going vego was the best thing that you could do for your health. I accepted her challenge, and we both had a physical and blood draws. I (with my reasonably balanaced omnivorous diet) trounced her. Her cholesterol was three times mine, and she was sufferring from mild anaemia. Just goes to show, you can be healthy either way, but you have to be vigilant to make sure you are getting everything you need.

libertarian vegetarian says:

02:52pm | 21/09/11

@Shane
Chicken urinate and poo together.  Try breathing in whats in the air in a chicken shed.  Intensive production of chickens and pigs leads to high levels of airborne ammonia. And it’s just as likely to be blood and bone typre fertiliser used in producing organic crops. Vegetarian and organic are not the same thing. Get it right, angry little man.
@Jason Todd
I have no idea how they make vat grown meat, but if a meat type starter was required then it would not be “vegetarian”, although some who consider themselves vegetarian may choose to eat it.  It would still be greatly preferable for people to eat vat meat than dead animals.  Also, it’s worth noting that men generally tend to have higher iron levels and less anemia than women, as they do not lose menstrual blood monthly. Also many vegetarians consume a lot of dairy products and eggs, which will likely increased your cholesterol. I’ve also encountered vegans with high cholesterol, so it can also be genetic. Vegetarian or vegan does not automatically mean a healthier diet. Smiths crisps and oreos are vegan. People can be unhealthy on either a omni or vegi diet, but the idea that vegetarians or vegans are missing out on nutrition is a fallacy.  Some prome example are Carl Lewis, Martina Navratilova, Mac Danzig. Heck, even Mike Tyson has gone veg. (Maybe he would like some of the vegan pigs ears I give to my dog???)

bec says:

02:58pm | 21/09/11

Carl Lewis went vegan *after* his professional sporting career - not during. And have you seen what a vegan diet has done to Tyson’s physique? Not pretty…

libertarian vegetarian says:

03:37pm | 21/09/11

@bec
Lewis went vegan in 1990. 1991 was the year he produced his best results. He credits veganism for this.  Martina Navratilova was still playing professionally til recently. Peter Brock was still driving professionally at 60, although ths may have been ill asvised. I have not seen Mike Tysons physique, nor do I have any desire too.  I had heard he had trimmed right down, which can only be a good thing, given his previous size.

Jason Todd says:

06:17pm | 21/09/11

Wasn’t claiming that going vego is bad for you. Was just stating that going vego or vegan doesn’t automatically make you the pinnacle of health as some people seem to think. You still have to watch what you eat and excercise to be healthy.

Sarah says:

08:56am | 21/09/11

I’m all for protein, but there’s several other protein rich foods out there. Tofu, lentils, beans to name a few.

fairsfair says:

09:34am | 21/09/11

My brother has been doing that for the past 12 months and has lost about 35kg. The majority of it fell off very quickly and since then he has had a steady weightloss. He is now very lean and starting to gain muscle weight. It has been pretty impressive to watch.

Direct says:

09:37am | 21/09/11

Agreed Fiddler. If God didn’t want us to eat animals, why did he make them from meat?

AdamC says:

11:11am | 21/09/11

Fiddler, I agree. The whole high carb diet thing made some sense when we were all poor peasants seeking refined energy. Very few of us are in that position now. Starchy foods, while delicious, are the enemies of weight loss.

Matthew says:

11:12am | 21/09/11

Direct, it’s possible that “God” made animals and put them on earth for another purpose and we just discovered they were good to eat (against his wishes).

However, other animals eat them too so that kind of throws that theory out the window.

“God” also put metal in the ground.  Why did he put it there if we weren’t supposed to dig it up and make weapons to kill each other with?  Mind you…War and disease are the best ways to keep population in check, so maybe s/he did in fact do it on purpose.

Budz says:

11:16am | 21/09/11

@Direct: The same could be said about humans. Why did god have to make them out of meat?

ibast says:

12:05pm | 21/09/11

Bloke I work with is an ex-eastern block weight lifter.  He went on a very high meat/very low carb diet there for quite a few months and went from being slightly overweight to very fit for his age (in fact very fit for someone 20 years younger).  He’s got another bloke in the office, (who is very large) on it now.  The guy has lost 36kg last time I spoke to him about it.

So yeah the association of meat with weight is a false one.  The weight does come form the over consumption of sugar and carbs (fats in particular).

I disagree with the comment about fruits, however.  Most of the sugar in fruit is in the form of fruitose and as far as I’m aware the body burns it pretty quickly, without converting it to fat.

PG says:

12:16pm | 21/09/11

We weren’t just told to eat a high carb diet. We were also told to get plenty of exercise. Do both and there is no problem. We were also told not to consume large amounts of fat, but many people still do that as well as heaps of carbs, do very little exercise, and then choose to blame those who advised a high carb, low fat diet with plenty of exercise for their own stupidity/ignorance…

Fiddler says:

01:50pm | 21/09/11

@ibast, my understanding (don’t claim to be an expert but have read a fair bit) is that once it hits our system fructose is converted into glucose.

@PG, latest suggests you are better getting your calories from fats as our bodies are better able to deal with them. We have only been eating grains for a few thousand years. Farting is generally caused by eating grains. Stop eating them and watch it stop.

Reid Wright says:

01:57pm | 21/09/11

I am carb crazy. Pretty much every meal consists of carbs and meat with some veges thrown in to keep my mind at ease. I exercise 6 days a week and consume lots of water and maintain a healthy lean form fluctuating 1-2kg with my motivation. I imagine it is partly genetic but i imagine a huge portion of it is that i don’t drink water not alcohol and i exercise regularly.
Choosing to not eat meat as a moral choice is obviously fine. But to choose to not eat meat because you’re to lazy to exercise every day is pretty lame. Take an hour off your 10 hours of sleep and do an hour of exercise. You’ll end up sleeping 6 hours a night and having 3 more hours to enjoy your life. Few of us are born fat, it takes years of training to achieve.

Budz says:

11:56am | 21/09/11

I think it’s less of a case of animals being people and more a case of animals having feelings and personalities and them having to die to feed you when in reality we don’t have to eat meat.

How many of you could eat your pets?

JD says:

12:46pm | 21/09/11

if I were really hungry

it’s not the same, these animals are bred for the sole purpose of feeding us, let them do what they were born to and stop trying to stifyl their destiny *snicker*

Oxnard says:

12:58pm | 21/09/11

@Budz, you are just taking the clear and correct point of Mahhrat out of context. I get the arguments for reducing meat in the diet…health and environmental, but people should seriously stop trying to make people go vego because animals have faces and dreams etc.
To take your argument further out of context to show the ridiculousness of it all I can reply to your “dont eat your pets” argument with:
Stop all animals eating other animals…make them all eat lentils and tree bark, because they are being mean to other animals.

Fact is that humans are omnivores and there is nothing wrong with that. Due to our relatively high levels of intelligence compared to animals (some more than others), we should exercise some sense when dealing with food sourcing, ie treat animals with some respect. You don’t see wild animals killing more than they need and we shouldn’t be either.

egg says:

01:52pm | 21/09/11

@mahhrat, nobody is saying animals are people. i’d care less about them if they had attitudes like most people.

animals are innocent creatures that are killed in horrible ways so that “some damn night you can have a good bit of steak”. but i guess that’s cool, because hey, i’m sure you’d let people do the same to your pets, yeah? otherwise you’d be pretty hypocritical yourself.

JD says:

04:58pm | 22/09/11

@egg - the animals we eat are bred for that purpose, not to play with or sit on our laps and purr, your argument makes no sense. but like I said before if I were really hungry maybe

Tina says:

08:33am | 21/09/11

And your cow drinks less water as well?

bec says:

08:47am | 21/09/11

Not really a relevant question. The growth of the vast quantities of grain used in large-scale commercial meat production requires huge quantities of water, petrochemical fertiliser, and huge doses of antibiotics for the cows to stay alive and avoid disease (you can only really keep cattle eating grain for a relatively short period of time).

Whether they drink more or less water isn’t really the point. The point is that it bysteps the process of eating grain and the negative health impacts. Healthier cows, healthier shit returning to the ground to fertilise, more of a win-win environmentally.

GottaGo says:

08:52am | 21/09/11

I always enjoy the water consumption of animals V grain argument.  Grain requires loads of water to grow also, but have you ever considered that animals pee a lot of “water” and valuable nutrients back into the soil that they stand on?

Just a though…

Nick says:

09:03am | 21/09/11

Why is water a problem? I understand that in 3rd world countries that water is scarce, but in the Western world we have desalination plants which will provide us with unlimited amounts of water, the real difficulty is getting clean energy to run these plants.

Jarrod says:

10:19am | 21/09/11

Grass fed cattle will drink less water than grain fed cattle because grass is comprised largely of water.

Tim says:

10:55am | 21/09/11

Yeah that water argument is a load of crap.
They always include rainfall on the land where the cows are living as if that’s using the water.
They never include the fact that none of the water is lost.
It ain’t called a water cycle for nothing people.

Ducks says:

11:02am | 21/09/11

I’m confused about the grain using water argument. Clearly grain crops need water to crow but to my knowledge the majority of grain crops in Australia are grown on unirrigated land. Using rainfall.The run-off from these farmlands is usually greater than when it was bushland.
I understand there are a number of other environmental factors associated with grain crops but I don’t see how water usage is one of them.

Ducks says:

11:02am | 21/09/11

I’m confused about the grain using water argument. Clearly grain crops need water to crow but to my knowledge the majority of grain crops in Australia are grown on unirrigated land. Using rainfall.The run-off from these farmlands is usually greater than when it was bushland.
I understand there are a number of other environmental factors associated with grain crops but I don’t see how water usage is one of them.

Wayne Kerr says:

08:33am | 21/09/11

I love rabbit but nowadays they’re just too damn expensive.  $30 plus for one rabbit.  You used to be able to buy them at the butcher dirt cheap but not anymore.

Jason Todd says:

08:35am | 21/09/11

Nutritionally, rabbit is not that good for you. It might pad out a meal, but there’s not much in the way of nutrients there. In fact, I’m told subsisting on a diet of only rabbit could lead to malnutrition.

bec says:

08:51am | 21/09/11

The term “rabbit starvation” actually refers to eating too much lean protein without any fat in the diet to support it - as experienced by some of the arctic and far-north explorers in the nineteenth century.

http://www.medbio.info/Horn/Time 1-2/vilhjalmur_stefansson1.htm

Alternative says:

09:04am | 21/09/11

Actually the malnutrition associated with rabbit meat (rabbit starvation) is not due to lack of nutrients, but the sheer abundance of protein you get from it.
Your liver cant process the richness of a pure rabbit diet - so mix it up with poultry (squab) and the ocasional large-fibre steak (buffalo).

Its called rabbit starvation, but it applies to any diet where the amount of protein is excessive to the amount of mass in the meal. Rabbit is a little low in fatty acids - but, if you’re enjoying it as part of a properly constructed Rabbit-pigeon-buffalo diet, the buffalo will fill that gap easily.

Bunny up.

Mahhrat says:

09:11am | 21/09/11

Kangaroo, kids.  Hop to it.

Max, of Rocky says:

10:36am | 21/09/11

@  Alternative

there are more feral pigs in Aussie than cattle and sheep combined.

Eat more bores, sorry boars.  (slip of the tongue)  8-)

Kebabpete says:

11:43am | 21/09/11

One of the best pizza’s you can buy from any shop is a Vegetarian… with Pepperoni. Meat makes any meal better. Fact.

Max, of Rocky says:

04:00pm | 21/09/11

Thin based meatlovers with BBQ sauce washed down by ice cold beer,
YEAAHH

Have found a pizza joint that does gluten free - positively bl##dy awesome !

KH says:

09:28am | 21/09/11

Once upon a time, I used to have a coke every morning.  Then there were the morning teas, and chocolate.  Don’t get me started…........
Then I realised I needed to lose weight.  That was 7 years ago.  I can’t even taste real coke now - it literally makes me gag - it is just too sweet.  I actually crave water - just plain, everyday, water.  I love salads - I never used to eat them, but now it is often the first thing I go for.  I don’t eat a lot of meat - but fish and chicken.  In fact, I can’t remember the last time I had red meat.  I also started running half marathons, having been largely lazy most of my life.  And I dropped 35kg.

It takes years to form a habit.  And it can’t be broken in 2 days or a week.  At first, it was difficult.  It took a year or more to really start changing my habits, but mental strength and determination got me through.  Now I can’t imagine going back to how it was.  Your desire for meat is a habit.  Like any habit, it can be broken, if you wanted to do it.  Better to choose than have it forced upon you, and the day might well be coming that meat will become so expensive it will simply not be economically viable to eat it every day.  The article isn’t suggesting you give up meat - just a couple of serves a week.  Surely that can’t be beyond you?

Wayne Kerr says:

01:58pm | 21/09/11

I think it’s more than just habit.  I like the flavour of meat whether it be chicken, beef, lamb, pork, fish.  I have tried vegeterian food and it just doesn’t do it for me.

That’s not to say that I have meat every night, every week.  I do have non meat dishes at times but as I say I walk away from teh table dissatisfied every time.

I have plenty of salad and veges with my meat but I just couldn’t eat a bowl full of salad or veges as it would lack the flavour I love.

Good on you for losing weight and changing your diet and lifestyle but that was your choice.  I simply choose to enjoy eating meat when I want without feeling guilty about it.

Jason Todd says:

08:55am | 21/09/11

Failing that, maybe we just suggest that people start eating “Long pig” to survive…

Max, of Rocky says:

10:45am | 21/09/11

@  Jason Todd

feral pig is a lot more acceptable, millions of them driving the farmers and Greens crazy.

Gamey taste is very reduced by capture and feeding them things like surplus pumpkins etc.
☻

adam says:

11:08am | 21/09/11

@ Jason, I think many long pig’s these days would have too much colesterol what with maccas etc being their main diet

Reddragon says:

09:27am | 21/09/11

Yeah, let’s kill all the cows ‘cuase that will fix everything. The UK will expect to stillnhave its hamburgers and its steaks, they will jst come from another country. Sort of like outsourcing your call centres excpet they are outsourcing their carbon reductions. That works in the world of Al Gore but let’s get real. How do we reduce greenhouse emissions and don’t say eat less meat that is simplistic. You need to consider the huge cost in fuel, pesticides and fertilisers that are used to produce grain along with the greenhouse emissions used to produce those three items alone. Reducing animal herds will not reduce crop production either.

I am genuinely interested in the answer. I won’t be here to see any of it but my children and grandchildren will be.

Geoff Russell says:

10:53am | 21/09/11

Globally, most meat is raised using grain, so to reduce grain production, fuel use, pesticide use, etc, you need to reduce meat consumption.  If you want the full picture, then of course it involves a lot more than a change of
diet, but a change of diet is absolutely necessary ... not optional.  The greenhouse cost of fertiliser to produce grain is tiny, tiny, tiny compared to the emissions from ruminants.  For the detail, have a look on
bravenewclimate.com ...

bec says:

10:12am | 21/09/11

Hahaha. I’d rather eat vegans than eat vegan.

Leyla says:

10:44am | 21/09/11

@bec - Are you sure you’re not jealous of vegans because you don’t have the willpower to make a similar change in your life?

bec says:

11:00am | 21/09/11

Willpower? Get real. That is the most ridiculous, bullshit thing I’ve ever heard in my life.

Ducks says:

11:09am | 21/09/11

@ Leyla
Ha ha ha. Great comment. Jealousy, yes, that’s why people don’t like vegans. Nothing to do with the patronising and often hypocritical bile they sprout when telling others how they should live their lives.
Admittedly, it’s probably only a small minority of vegans that give the others a bad name, but that’s all it takes.

AdamC says:

01:09pm | 21/09/11

Veganism, I just don’t get that. I didn’t even get that when I was vegetarian. No milk and no eggs = no cows and no chickens = massive animal holocaust.

Think about it.

PS, Leyla, we aren’t jealous of you, we feel sorry for you. Just FYI, you’re missing out on some great stuff.

Steve Perry says:

02:21pm | 21/09/11

@bec - at least in eating a vegan you would know that they were ‘grain fed’

Direct says:

10:30am | 21/09/11

Yep, for every steak you don’t eat, I’m going to eat a monkey, a koala and a toucan.

Bigger than MD says:

10:31am | 21/09/11

..fight you for ‘em…

adam says:

11:11am | 21/09/11

Direct, you go with those option, I’m gonna start with a harp seal entree, move on to a fairy penguin main and try a little of the otter souffle for pudding

Shane says:

01:13pm | 21/09/11

Did dinosaurs fart?  Perhaps that’s why they all died out.  The CO2 equivalent reach critical mass and they all suffocated in a primordal cloud of dino fart.

Max, of Rocky says:

10:58am | 21/09/11

LOL
Good thinking

just don’t reverse the process, could be embarrassing.
☻

Elphaba says:

10:19am | 21/09/11

“Though I am sure that they are not all like that”.

They’re not.

AdamC says:

11:07am | 21/09/11

Fairs, not all vegetarians are horribly irritating about it, I certainly never was. But vegetarianism is, in effect, a religion because it is based on dogma. Once you stop believing the dogma, the whole thing makes no sense. It certainly makes no sense to me, anymore.

Elphaba says:

11:58am | 21/09/11

“it is based on dogma”

Unless it’s a taste thing, not a philosophical thing.

DP says:

04:44pm | 21/09/11

For some it may be dogma but I think for many it is a private decision about how they want to live their lives.  I completely stopped eating meat about 30 years ago after working in an animal breeding and holding unit where I dealt with vast numbers of animals - dogs, cats, rabbits, & sheep - that were being used for experimental purposes.  The experience was so disturbing that I became very aware of how non-companion animals are treated.  Once I’d done some fairly rudimentary research into how meat is produced and learned about factory farming etc I simply couldn’t justify eating meat to myself anymore.  I don’t particularly care what life choices other’s make in this regard….I have enough trouble walking my own path without worrying about the paths others take.

libertarian vegetarian says:

01:38pm | 21/09/11

For sure. All those cattle on stations so large they are patrolled by helicopter “barely even birth unassisted” Riiight.
Why would we need genetrically engineered plants?  Only a miniscule amount of the food produced in Australia is fed to humans. Most is fed to farm animals.  Most of whom are produced in factory farms. Except for the grass fed cattle, who are mostly on vast stations.
If we didn’t eat meat, we would need to grow less plant food, not more. And of course those plant foods will still be produced by farmers, so no need to round all those farmers up and slaughter them, no matter how excited that idea makes you.
Your post is hysterical nonsense.

Ben C says:

04:53pm | 21/09/11

@ libertarian vegetarian

“If we didn’t eat meat, we would need to grow less plant food, not more.”

You seriously can not be that retarded, can you?

Are you suggesting that we starve instead? If everyone stopped eating meat, wouldn’t that mean that we would need to grow MORE plant food to meat - I mean meet - the additional demand?

Emma says:

09:30pm | 21/09/11

Ben, leaving aside all the other discussion points, it’s just that it takes roughly 5-6kg of plant protein to obtain 1kg of animal protein, and a large proportion of the meat people buy is grain-finished.  If we took out the middle man so to speak and ate the plant protein ourselves we would actually reduce our overall need for crops.

Direct says:

10:35am | 21/09/11

The only proven way to reduce birth rates is to raise people’s standard of living.

Giraffe says:

11:04am | 21/09/11

Or let nature take its course, Direct.

Good comment AnnaC. Over population is the only problem, the rest is just bullshit. And seriously people, your low carb, or low protien or low something else diet is a crock too, get off your arse and excercise and you won’t get fat, simple.

Max, of Rocky says:

11:14am | 21/09/11

@  Direct

Agreed, but I would add “and education”

bec says:

12:14pm | 21/09/11

Fffft. I lost weight doing far less exercise than those pointless hours in the gym that you’re “supposed” to do. Rather my hour a week of heavy weights and sprinting than endless, pointless hours of cardio. (Mind, on my feet constantly walking and never sitting at my job. Gotta love holidays for mindless internet crap time.)

Exercise is good but according to what I’ve read not the biggest influence towards weight loss. Better off doing some than none but if push comes to shove between running for an hour to burn 300 calories or not eating the chocolate, I won’t eat the chocolate.

Giraffe says:

12:54pm | 21/09/11

Bec, you will burn 1000 calories an hour running, if you actually put some effort into it, not 300.

The point is, exercise not only helps you lose weight, it has longer lasting benefits that help you keep the weight off. Eating a ‘Carb free diet’ does nothing but teach the body to burn protein for energy and store as much fat as possible for the same. I think you will find what you have read spruiking these types of diets are commissioned by those that stand to make a lot of money from peoples ignorance and desire to find an ‘easy way out’.

bec says:

01:09pm | 21/09/11

I haven’t read anything; this was designed for me by a doctor as a means of reducing seizures. Ketogenic diets have a proven history of doing so. Weight loss was a byproduct of the diet, rather than its intention. Mine isn’t a high-protein diet; it’s a high-fat diet (even a lean piece of steak with all fat trimmed is still roughly 50% fat by calories). Some vegetables every day but mainly fat from animal/coconut sources. I avoid eating any more than 0.8g protein per kilogram of bodyweight which doesn’t equate to a huge amount of protein each day (a couple of eggs, or 200g steak). It also doesn’t equate to a huge amount of food either, but fat is intensely satiating and it’s reasonably normal to only eat 1-2 meals per day without hunger, even though I’m eating in the vicinity of 1000 calories more per day than when I was on weight watchers.

I question whether an hour of running can burn 1000 calories unless you’re extremely obese/unfit. Exercise is good (some moreso than others) but it’s not the only gay in the village in terms of creating the right conditions for weight loss/maintenance.

Giraffe says:

02:18pm | 21/09/11

bec 12:14 -Exercise is good but according to what I’ve read not the biggest influence towards weight loss

bec 01:09 -I haven’t read anything; this was designed for me by a doctor

But yeah, I agree there are far more ways than one to skin a cat. I just think a lot of truth is lost in peoples gullibility and laziness. (and Im not pointing at you in this case). Most people would keep a healthy weight by following the age old food pyramid and getting off their arse occasionally.

bec says:

03:02pm | 21/09/11

Laf laf laf. Needless to say I *do* need to read closer. The point I was making was that my eating plan wasn’t sold to me by anyone selling a book/diet plan. It’s not to say I haven’t done further and wider reading on the subject.

I think I got that nugget from Gary Taubes whose work is generally excellent (but there’s more to cutting carbs than weight loss and vice versa). For me it’s been about 90% eating, 10% exercise - if there was any shift, it was to less (and harder).

Rose says:

12:00pm | 21/09/11

I know a woman who went vegan only to find that she didn’t lose much weight because…sugar is vegan!! It just goes to show, it’s not veganism that makes you healthy, it’s having a well balanced diet. I have never cooked a vegetarian (let alone vegan) meal in my life and I don’t really think I will anytime soon, however I am not overweight, am perfectly healthy and have every reason to be looking forward to a very long, healthy life (gotta love good genes!).
My tip for a good diet, cook most things from scratch using fresh ingredients, don’t eat too much and enjoy the naughty stuff in moderation occassionally (a good pavlova every now and then is heaven), don’t binge and eat what you enjoy. Eat slowly and drink a few glasses of water a day.
My tip for a happy life, make choices that make you happy and let others make choices that make them happy. Keep your mouth shut about your choices unless you’re asked and don’t interfere in other people’s lives unless what they are doing is dangerous to others, illegal or impacts on your own ability to make your own choices.

Shane says:

12:09pm | 21/09/11

I was brought up killing and butchering animals.  There’s nothing wrong with it.  It’s a bit messy but if you hang the carcass from a decent sized tree the mess is contained.  It comes down to being prepared and hanging the bullock by the back legs just after you shoot it.  Then you can cut its throat it bleeds in one place.  Just chuck a bit of dirt over the blood and everything is cool.

I suppose it’s a bit smelly when the animal is gutted, and the guts tends to sort of pop out, but once again, if you’re prepared with a wheelbarrow to carry the guts away you can throw the offal to the dog.  At least you don’t have to feed the bastard that night.

I have to admit to not liking skinning cattle though, it’s hard on the knuckles because you have to punch the skin away from the rest of the body.

Pigs are a bit different, you shoot them in the head and they drop dead straight away, but then you have to stick the pig with a bloody great knife in the throat.  After a couple of seconds the pig starts kicking and convulsing and the bastard sprays blood everywhere.  When that’s finished you tie its back legs to a front end loader and lower it into a bloody great pot of boiling water to scald it.  The hair softens and its easier to scrape off.

Sheep are easy, you just straddle it, grab its chin and cut its throat.  Then keep slicing its neck and cut the spinal chord.

With all of them you hang them from a tree overnight in a meat bag and let rigor come and go, then the next morning cut them up into chops and T Bones.

bec says:

10:49am | 21/09/11

Because the ridiculous attempt by some to use weight as the sole proxy of health has what’s got the western world into problems with morbid obesity and diabetes?

I’ve done vegetarian - as well as low-fat, calorie restricted weight watchers. It didn’t make me healthier in the slightest; I got fat because it caused me to have a terrible relationship with food (“why eat a McDonald’s burger when you can have 239847kg OF SALAD INSTEAD?” Er… because I’m recovering from an eating disorder and I don’t have eight hours a day to devote to copious consumptions of masses of food just to get the required calories and nutrients) and because I got very little nutrition from the food I did eat.

I’ve only become healthier since switching to a largely animal-based diet. I could spend half an hour eat nearly a kilo and a half of fruit, but why bother when I can get more vitamins and minerals (plus protein, plus healthy fat and the associated fat-soluble vitamins) with 150g of freshly cooked liver, or a couple of eggs and some cream?

redvixen says:

01:06pm | 21/09/11

@ bec - As a proud meat eater (they just taste so damn good) I would rather eat a kilo and a half of fruit anytime than 150g of liver.  *shudder*  Some things really are just meant to be dog food!

bec says:

01:30pm | 21/09/11

It’s an acquired taste and depends on how well it’s prepared. I personally like it. Organ meat/offal is very high in vitamins and minerals.

Max, of Rocky says:

03:56pm | 21/09/11

@ bec
“Organ meat/offal is very high in vitamins and minerals.”

to which i would add : ” and heavy metals”

You have to be real particular about where it comes from.

Anna C says:

12:01pm | 21/09/11

I have to agree with you Roddy Sexton. Most vegetarians I know are protein and iron deficient. Doesn’t do wonders for your energy levels or your libido.

Liz says:

12:02pm | 21/09/11

Look who’s talking. It’s you men that require us women to be in a skinny size 8 dress, hairless apart from what grows on our scalp and perfectly made up all the time, preferrably wearing high heels despite our feet aching until kingdom come. If you think that doesn’t take effort, then you’re barking up the wrong tree.

So, until you guys change your attitude towards women’s physique, I certainly will continue to expect some effort on your part when it comes to looks, too.

And besides that, there’s other proteins you can eat besides meat. Ever tried legumes? They’re pretty yummy.

Sad Sad Reality says:

12:29pm | 21/09/11

“Eat legumes. Look like me. Unggggghhhhhh.”
                                Arnold Schwarzenegger

Sizzle lizzle.

Richard says:

02:25pm | 21/09/11

See, I said that women don’t realise how hard it is to achieve that sort of physique, and then Liz just comes along and proves it with her “legumes” comment.

Do you know just how much legumes one would be required to eat in order to intake the sufficient requirement of 2 grams of protein per body weigh kg? Buckets of them, multiple big buckets of legumes every single day. So much that its simply not feasible to do so.

You really have no idea you girls about how hard it is to achieve and maintain such a physique. An extreme minority of men may be able to do it without eating too much protein, but for any normal person, copious consumption of red meat is an absolute, non-negotiable aspect of a program to become lean and muscular.

Sharon says:

08:41am | 23/09/11

@amy - sad that you think this way. You clearly have no connection with any other sentient creatures.

“People must have renounced, it seems to me, all natural intelligence to dare to advance that animals are but animated machines…. It appears to me, besides, that [such people] can never have observed with attention the character of animals, not to have distinguished among them the different voices of need, of suffering, of joy, of pain, of love, of anger, and of all their affections.  It would be very strange that they should express so well what they could not feel.”  ~Voltaire, Traité sur la tolerance

Kika says:

01:06pm | 21/09/11

Completely untrue
FACT 1 - Most vegetarians are not walking time bombs and most know how to replace protein - soy, legumes and pulses provide much of your complex proteins.
FACT 2 - Not all vegetarians drink milk. Vegans don’t.
FACT 3 - Of course they care more for money… do you think they don’t?

Esteban says:

01:15pm | 21/09/11

You won’t live any longer if you go vegetarian it will just feel like a loooooonnnnnggg time.

Fots says:

02:33pm | 21/09/11

@Kika
Actually, those points are fairly valid. Granted that some people do know where to source protein (such as yourself), most have no idea.

As for fact 2, the fact that some vegetarians don’t drink milk is even worse. I assume that means they don’t have any dairy and therefore need supplements in order to correct their intake. Either that, or they just have a much higher risk of bone related issues.

Finally, you’ll also notice things such as Vitamin B12, Iron and a few other things critical to ones well-being are not easy to source at all without meat - that is not to say you can’t get them, you’d just need supplements or A LOT of certain food types.

Unless someone is well versed in nutrition, I wouldn’t recommend ‘converting’ at all… It’s far too dangerous.

Giraffe says:

01:17pm | 21/09/11

Hahahaha.

Eggplant is delicious!

Fiddler says:

02:00pm | 21/09/11

maybe they don’t appreciate it because it tastes like zuccini that was dipped in turpentine perhaps?

fairsfair says:

04:29pm | 21/09/11

whoa Fiddler - you must have had some low qual eggplant. Its lush when done right.

If it is not salted and cooked poorly it almost tastes like soap. I eat it all the time and like a 17 year old stoner, I am so excited to see that my plant has a bud on it….

Esteban says:

12:45pm | 21/09/11

SMo. Easter Island is good but the fate of the Mayans is also very good example of a civilisation that grew beyond available resources combined with a change in the climate.

Direct says:

10:56am | 26/09/11

Blatant lie. Small LDL particles, is the major cause of coronary atherosclerosis (heart disease), only occur genetically or as a byproduct of processing carbohydrates.

Max, of Rocky says:

04:04pm | 21/09/11

True,
also an Afghan camel herder.

JD says:

02:21pm | 21/09/11

Amen sister! it’s like religious nuts trying to convert others or make me go to church (my cousin is one) if I wanted to go to church I would, if I want to eat meat I will

libertarian vegetarian says:

04:34pm | 21/09/11

If you want vegetarians to stop trying to ‘convert’ you, for gods sake stop asking us why we don’t eat meat! 
You don’t really want to know why, you just want to argue.  I don’t think I’ve ever managed to get through a meal at a function without having some a-hole ask me why I don’t eat meat and then proceed to give me a lecture about how I will become protien deficient or anemic or whatever.  You don’t see me asking everyone at the table why they DO eat meat and then telling them they will get heart disease or colon cancer or comstipation.  In short
1.  Chances are most vegetarians know more about nutrition than the average omni.
2.  You don’t really care if we get anemia anyway, like you don’t really care about people who smoke getting lung cancer or drinkers who get cirrochis. If you are right and I am wrong andf I get anemia, it’s my problem not yours.

Seth Brundle says:

04:55pm | 21/09/11

I only eat meat because I cant bear the thought of slaughtering fruit or vegetables.  They lay the ground or hang from their trees, trying to live their own life when some heartless bastard comes along and cuts their lives short for their selfish needs.  And have you seen the amount of water that is squandered watering crops?  My conscience demands that I forgo fruit and vegetables, at least 5 days a week.

JD says:

05:25pm | 21/09/11

@libertine vegetarian, I don’t ask them why they are vegetarian because quiet frankly, get ready for it, I could care less, honestly who gives a rats ass why you don’t eat meat? but don’t order a salad and then glare at me while I am enjoying my steak and vegies, that’s not cool. I don’t go around telling people I am a carnivore and why and that they should really eat meat because it’s none of my business.

Kate says:

07:38pm | 21/09/11

I agree. I’d be way more supportive of the vegetarian lifestyle if they would shut the hell up about it!
@libertarian, I have never once asked a vegetarian/vegan why they don’t eat meat. Why? Because it shits me when people ask me why I do. You’re happy with your choices, good for you, but trying to convert others is extremely annoying and pointless.

David says:

05:09pm | 22/09/11

I like the guy round here who wears ‘Meat is Murder’ t shirts and then helps himself to ham sandwiches when they put lunch on for us.