Fifty shades of selfish desire in the twilight of fantasy

Drama Queen says:

09:48am | 10/09/12

The biggest thing I find wrong with your post is that you watch Home and Away and Neighbours.

Audra Blue says:

02:54pm | 10/09/12

I agree with Drama Queen.  You should be watching Summer Bay Slaughter.  That is worth a lok

sifi says:

12:23pm | 10/09/12

By far and away, MOST porn is geared towards men without doubt. It’s not a matter of being able to tell the difference between reality and fantasy. Fantasy or not, it seeps into our subconscious. The problem is that sooo many men have unrealistic and self-centred expectations of women because of porn. And I think the article is correct in saying the same of women towards men because of this romance fantasy.

Inky says:

12:43pm | 10/09/12

“The problem is that sooo many men have unrealistic and self-centred expectations of women because of porn”

I’d say it’s because they’re selfish asshats.

M says:

12:51pm | 10/09/12

Sifi, that argument could be applied to women and 50 shades you know, about developing unrealistic expectations of men from a book?

AdamV says:

12:57pm | 10/09/12

Most porn is geared towards men, I agree. But not all porn geared towards men is about men committing borderline rape against women. Sometimes it’s even the other way around. My point is that saying all porn is the same is as stupid as saying all love stories are like Twilight.

And sure, there are people out there with “unrealistic” expectations of their partners. I’ve heard women say that of boyfriends who want sex three times a week, I’ve heard blokes say it of women who expected oral sex - both of which sound like reasonable demands to me, but which don’t to others. Everybody draws their own lines and the challenge is the same with or without porn’s influence - to make that work within the confines of one’s relationship/s.

I’d rather have a demanding lover than a starfish!

M says:

01:12pm | 10/09/12

3 times a week is an unrealistic expectation? Really? I mean christ, You could spread 2 out from monday through to friday and keep optional days on the weekends as the third.

Caedrel says:

02:41pm | 10/09/12

“The problem is that sooo many men have unrealistic and self-centred expectations of women because of porn”

I think you’ll also find that men have unrealistic expectations of themselves because of porn. It gives us unrealistic ideas about how big we should be, how long we should last, how capable we should be of satisfying our partner. It applies pressure on us to “perform”, and affects our expectations of ourselves.

Audra Blue says:

03:03pm | 10/09/12

I read all three 50 Shades book and I found them to be wildly entertaining.  They didn’t spur me on to find a millionaire to marry, or indulge in a BDSM relationship.  I didn’t identify with any of the characters and I didn’t feel inadequate about my own life after reading them.  I just found the story to be interesting, the sex/bondage informative and it gave me an escape from my normal reading list for a couple of weeks.

Sure there are some novels that inspire and change your life and I’ve read a few of those, but they have nothing to do with this hardcore Mills and Boon genre. 

If you can’t distinguish between real life and fantasy, your problems go way deeper than a few fiction books

M says:

09:35am | 10/09/12

We should start complaining about women never wanting sex.

Drama Queen says:

09:46am | 10/09/12

I doubt very much that its about Christian Grey being rich (in case you haven’t realised he’s only a character in a book and not a real person - chip on shoulder) - it’s more the fact that what women get at home is boring. Most men don’t really know how to satisfy a women and they’re having to look elsewhere for something other than cheating.

Anonymous says:

10:10am | 10/09/12

Don’t kid yourself, Drama Queen. You don’t have to be a billionaire to be good in bed. (I’m an excellent example). So is it the money and private jets that you find attractive and therefore a catalyst for “satisfaction”?

M says:

10:37am | 10/09/12

It’s the dominance they find attractive. The billionaire thing plays second fiddle to being dominated by a man who knows what he’s doing.

Drama Queen says:

11:27am | 10/09/12

“You don’t have to be a billionaire to be good in bed. (I’m an excellent example).”

What are you going on about Anonymous - THE BILLIONAIRE BOOK CHARACTER IS NOT REAL. Even the BDSM scenario isn’t based in reality (I found the book completely boring based on this fact).

“So is it the money and private jets that you find attractive and therefore a catalyst for “satisfaction”?” ANON - THE GUY IS NOT REAL.

“(I’m an excellent example)” - if you need to affirm it by stating it to everyone that you are then I have my doubts.

M says:

12:02pm | 10/09/12

The girls in porn aren’t real either. I’m yet to find a woman who happily accomodates the big three in the same session.

Anonymous says:

12:10pm | 10/09/12

The book is not real, but there are many impressionable women who are drawn to the male lead because they’ve been deluded into thinking that this is a perfect man. Handsome, rich and possessive. I was questioning why 50 shades was popular, since Mr. Grey’s depraved sexual nature seems to be a direct contradiction of what women in real life SAY they want. Do you seriously think that 50 Shades would be just as popular if he wasn’t rich and was some average income earner?

Tigger says:

12:28pm | 10/09/12

@Anonymous

What Drama Queen is saying is that in order for women to really desire you and want to have lots of sex with you, you have to be NOT REAL.

@M

Acutally it their wealth and power that allows them to dominate in the first place. As someone posted below, if Grey was a poor schmo his “dominance” would be rejected outright.

Inky says:

12:42pm | 10/09/12

“What Drama Queen is saying is that in order for women to really desire you and want to have lots of sex with you, you have to be NOT REAL.”

Always worked for me

Tubesteak says:

12:57pm | 10/09/12

Yes, and I’m sure all these bored housewives are nubile contortionist gymnasts with an encyclopaedic knowledge of the Kama Sutra…

The popularity of this book is that it speaks right to the fantasies of women and what they desire.  It did not create them. It just highlights what is already there. It shows how unrealistic women are when it comes to relationships and when they blame men for their actions in the breakdown of a marriage it fails to highlight their own unrealistic standards and expectations that no man would be able to live up to or be willing to aim for as the ROI far exceeds the effort.

M says:

01:09pm | 10/09/12

I believe ROMCOMS have done irreperable damage to western women.

Drama Queen says:

01:51pm | 10/09/12

Tubesteak - Really? “Unrealistic standard and expectations”? I found the book completely boring. There was nothing new that a normal sex-life doesn’t include. You don’t need to be nubile contortionist gymnast with an encyclopaedic knowledge of the Kama Sutra to have good sex. You do need a capable partner though, or three, or four .... I don’t know how good sex has suddenly become an unrealistic standard and expectation.

Anon - “depraved sexual nature” - now I know that you haven’t had alot of experience outside the confines of normal. How is BDSM depraved?

Tiggar - read my posts and comprehend. I’m trying to get Anon to understand the character isn’t real. He doesn’t seem to know.

Anonymous says:

02:11pm | 10/09/12

I’ve stated that I understand well enough the character isn’t real, Queenie. Don’t deliberately twist my words. Many women have the image that this guy is the perfect man, real or not. THAT is my issue.

Also, I’m into light BDSM for the record, but that’s not what I’‘d call depraved. What IS depraved is having a woman sign a contract that grants you complete control her life, in and out of the bedroom. It’s the mark of a possessive, controlling, sociopathic creep.

Tubesteak says:

02:14pm | 10/09/12

There is no way in hell I’m going to read the book to get the details about the sex.

The unrealistic standards I was referring to are about the drama and excitement of the relationship. Relationships are meant to become staid and boring. That’s what happens when two people stay together for so long. It’s the same with jobs. They start out exciting and new but after a while you realise you’re doing the same boring thing every day all for a paycheque.

The problem we have these days is women keep expecting a man to keep things vital, fresh and exciting. Rarely does the woman add anything into the mix other than her shopping list of expectations. They expect the man to hang off her every word and treat it as the most important fascinating thing in his life even though it has nothing to do with football, finance or cars. Then he’s expected to come up with new and exciting activities to keep the woman entertained. This is unrealistic and impossible. No wonder a man stops trying to please the woman. It’s like having to constantly jump through hoops just for the sake of it. After a while you get sick and tired of performing like a dog and just walk away and go to sleep.

People that complain about their partners being poor in bed are saying a lot about themselves. None of it is good. They are implying that they lie there and expect the other person to do all the work. Nothing stopping you from getting on top and working the angles to your satisfaction. That’s how to have a good time in bed.

M says:

02:22pm | 10/09/12

@ Anon, interesting when you put marriage like that.

Audra Blue says:

03:06pm | 10/09/12

My complaint has always been that men don’t want sex as much as I do.

I REALLY need to start dating a better class of guy!

Drama Queen says:

03:18pm | 10/09/12

“What IS depraved is having a woman sign a contract that grants you complete control her life, in and out of the bedroom. It’s the mark of a possessive, controlling, sociopathic creep”

Again Anon - it’s a fictional book - a real woman didn’t really sign a real contract. It was all make-believe for the book. The book is about fantasy. Rarely do people want to read a book about what goes on in their daily lives and rarely does fantasy creep into daily lives.

“People that complain about their partners being poor in bed are saying a lot about themselves. None of it is good. They are implying that they lie there and expect the other person to do all the work. Nothing stopping you from getting on top and working the angles to your satisfaction. That’s how to have a good time in bed.”

No Tubesteak - its shows just how things go over your head, literally and the limitations you place on sex if you think girl on top is the be-all and end-all to good sex. Women can tell the difference between a good and bad root - sitting on top doesn’t make a difference to a dud root. And you should try dating other women if the one’s your choosing don’t do it for you - it’s just like when men expect you to be at their beck-and-call, like you don’t have anything else in your life except them.

“That’s how to have a good time in bed.” - with only one person - M you’re such an amateur.

TheHuntress says:

03:34pm | 10/09/12

@ Audra Blue.

Right on, sister. I’m yet to meet a man who wants sex as much as I do. And now Mr. Huntress has totally lost interest…even in all my new kits from Coco De Mer and that makes me sad. At least I have awesome underwear.

M says:

03:56pm | 10/09/12

You girls with high sex drive need some form of easy identification. Ideally i’d like to marry someone with as high a sex drive as me.

Tigger says:

04:25pm | 10/09/12

@Drama Queen

So what’s your point? First you claimed that the real sex women get is boring so they need to escape into a book. Then you claimed the character isn’t real and the BDSM isn’t based in reality. Then you claimed that the book is actually boring. Then you claimed it was all make-believe and women don’t really want that in their real lives either. Then you claimed that we don’t know what good sex is, yet failed to actually educate us. So this all begs the question - do you even know what you want or why you want to read about it, other than to feel sorry for yourself?

Tubesteak says:

04:55pm | 10/09/12

“Women can tell the difference between a good and bad root - sitting on top doesn’t make a difference to a dud root.”

Obviously, you don’t know the difference if you don’t know how to make it good when you are on top. People that complain about others being a dud root don’t know how to have sex and don’t know how to use it.

“And you should try dating other women if the one’s your choosing don’t do it for you”

*you’re
I know how to use a woman to do it for me because I know what I’m doing and how to get me off. Because I’m not a dud root

Drama Queen says:

05:12pm | 10/09/12

Tubesteak - wtf - “People that complain about others being a dud root don’t know how to have sex and don’t know how to use it.”

Men who don’t go for long and men who don’t know where all the bits are - there are alot of them out there - ask any girl. Again limiting good sex to girl-on-top ??? You seem to be taking my posts personally, defending loudly and affirming yourself wildly, more than the other guys have on this thread - I think that says alot about you.

And haven’t you ever heard of women faking it -

Audra Blue says:

05:26pm | 10/09/12

“You girls with high sex drive need some form of easy identification. Ideally i’d like to marry someone with as high a sex drive as me.”

M, usually when I tell a prospective partner I like sex A LOT and I’m happiest when I’m getting it every day, the guy’s eyes light up and he thinks “wow, that’s awesome”. 

Then reality hits when he realises I’m telling the truth and he ends up getting intimidated and freaks out and thinks I have psychological problems.  I think it’s just that men are so conditioned to have to “work” to get sex that when it comes easily, they don’t know what to do.

As I said, I really have to start dating a better class of guy.

TheHuntress says:

05:46pm | 10/09/12

So true, Audra Blue…

Always had the same problem - the initial, “OMG this is awesome!”, to “some other time” to “There must be something wrong with you”.

Now when people joke about women never giving it up for their husbands I just roll my eyes and ask Mr. Huntress for his opinion. Pierre Louys had it so right in “The Young Girls Handbook of Good Manners” when he said ‘never ask a married woman if she had a good f*** last night. Chances are she will have little to say.”. And it’s not for my lack of trying.

TChong says:

11:56am | 10/09/12

AG
Good luck , and best wishes to you and family.
Agree with your closing lines- thats what a decent relationship should be about - caring.

TChong says:

11:57am | 10/09/12

AG
Good luck , and best wishes to you and family.
Agree with your closing lines- thats what a decent relationship should be about - caring.

M says:

10:17am | 10/09/12

It would still bring in millions.

Ally says:

10:17am | 10/09/12

True. I read it to see what the fuss was about and couldn’t believe what I read. Not only was it poorly written, the so called “hero” was a sociopath. Mind you, I felt the same about Twilight.

Chris L says:

10:37am | 10/09/12

That may be what attracts readers. Robert Englund used to get mail from female fans saying they fantasise about being raped by Freddy. I suspect many women, if they’re honest with themselves, enjoy fantasising about being dominated even if they wouldn’t agree to such a thing in real life.

Tubesteak says:

12:11pm | 10/09/12

Whie Ted Bundy was on death row after having been convicted of raping and killing 28 young women, he received an average of 1,000 love letters per day from women wanting to be with him. Some would pay the guards to look the other way when they visited.

That is demented.

M says:

12:45pm | 10/09/12

That is hypergamy.

NN says:

05:22pm | 10/09/12

So… it’s fine for men for fantasize about women with big tits who love anal sexd, but if women fantasize about a rich, handsome man, they are somehow bitches with unrealistic expectations?

Chris L says:

06:21pm | 10/09/12

@NN - How did you draw that conclusion?

M says:

11:08am | 10/09/12

For all the gnashing of teeth and wailing that goes on about Christian/Edward, I see plenty of women falling over themselves to be with men just like that in real life.

Beth says:

11:23am | 10/09/12

Thank you Ally, I thought I was the only female that felt that way. I have read both series and found the female to be an annoying, weak sook and the males chauvanistic mysoginists. Both were also extremely badly written. I only read them to see what all the fuss was about and borrowed them from a friend.

I think the rise of the books is more to do with Gen x/y being too cool to read Mills and Boon and therefore not realising there are books with sex in it aimed at women. They would be better off reading good books and looking up Literotica when they want to read about sex.

Markus says:

12:37pm | 10/09/12

I’ve witnessed this incredible phenomenon where there is not a single woman who actually thinks that Twilight or Shades are anything other than poorly written crap, yet they have still managed to read every single novel and watch every movie.
Just to see what the fuss is/to confirm how bad they really are, of course.

@Beth, case in point.
“I only read them to see what all the fuss was about and borrowed them from a friend.”
These cigarettes aren’t mine either, I’m just holding them for a friend. Honest.

Audra Blue says:

05:48pm | 10/09/12

I enjoyed both series of books for what they actually are - entertainment.  I wouldn’t like a boyfriend like either Edward or Christian.  If I had to choose, give me Jacob - alive, passionate, warm, strong and protective. 

I also found the female leads to be sooky and annoying.  I really started liking Bella after she became a vampire - at least her whining stopped.  But I’m not a teenaged girl any more so it could be that I just couldn’t identify with her.

As for Ana Steele, I don’t understand why strong dominant male characters are supposed to fall for klutzy, socially awkward female characters?  The first time Christian Grey met Anastacia Steele, she fell face first through his office doorway when he opened the door.!

But I guess it plays into the romantic genre fantasy of a helpless female being rescued by the dominant male.  If these stereotypes weren’t ingrained into us, we wouldn’t find them so compelling and readable.

And to save myself the cost of the books, I bought the Kindle versions.

Ally says:

07:24pm | 10/09/12

Audra - I read a lot of trashy books, particularly romance or chick lit, because I like something frothy and predictable and because I don’t always want to read something that requires a lot of concentration or leaves me thinking about the content for ages.

That said, there are trashy books and then there’s straight out trash. I lump Twilight and 50 Shades in this second category. For a start they’re poorly written but the underlying themes are disgraceful, particularly in Twilight when the core audience seems to be teenage girls. I’d like to think women can see this for themselves, but teenagers generally can’t and I find it really troublesome that they’re holding these deeply flawed “heroes” up as an ideal for future boyfriends/husbands. Or that they see Bella or the 50 shades girl as women they would want to be like.

Yeah, it’s just a book and it’s all made up. But books are influential, particularly to teenagers and if they’re going to read Twilight I’d hope that some adult who knows better would take the trouble to explain to them why the books are such crap and steer them towards something better.

Audra Blue says:

07:51pm | 10/09/12

You’re right Ally.  I forgot how impressionable I was when I was a teenager.  I was addicted to Mills and Boon and Harlequin romances and for many years I tried to find a man who was the basic template guy - strong, masculine, silent, suffering and emotionally flawed but one who I could “fix” with love *sigh*.

But these new “role models” are way worse. I mean, a vampire?  He’s not even a real person.  And the guy with the emotional problems who solves them through kinky sex?  Talk about upping the romantic ante!

Nathan Explosion says:

01:25pm | 10/09/12

The Missus read a bit of it, then threw it down and yelled, “I can get better porn online written by virgins!”

Then she went back to her tumblr.

Markus says:

02:13pm | 10/09/12

You’d think virgins would write the best porn.
The absence of actually getting any themselves would give them ample time to think, read and write in detail about it.

Slothy says:

02:50pm | 10/09/12

I actually know a 30 year old virgin who writes porn that is scorching hot, and a much better read than that literary abortion masquerading as a novel. Hell, I unambiguously hate anything I’ve written that’s more than about an hour old and yet I can still happily say that my own tentative forays into erotica are infinitely more arousing than a character talking about her ‘inner goddess’.

TheHuntress says:

03:30pm | 10/09/12

LOL I think I would just switch off if I read about someone being in touch with their “inner goddess”.

I quite liked the approach of “The Sexual Life of Catherine M”. While I wouldn’t classify it as erotica, rather an autobiographical account of her sex life, I liked that there was no real emotion or morality attached to her actions and pleasure, just raw honesty. I would love to see what she would write about “inner goddesses” though, just for a laugh.