Feminists should back off the burqa bashing

Hartog says:

09:11am | 25/05/10

Why comment on Sara’s article if you obviously haven’t read it?

Carter says:

09:34am | 25/05/10

Hugo, I suggest you re-read the article above. Sara is clearly, and from an educated position, arguing that NOT all women wear teh burqa because their faith demands it, many choose to wear it.

I’d also ask you what Australian values it flies in the face of? Multiculturalism? Acceptance? Larrikinism? Equality of faith?

iansand says:

09:35am | 25/05/10

It flies in the face of Australian values to tell people how they should express their individual choices, religious or social.

Rahi Adil says:

09:38am | 25/05/10

Hugo , you know very well that you are not saying this because you care for women . In fact you are the person who like to oppress women. Did you ever ask a muslim woman whether someone forces her to wear burqa? No you did not. You even do not knwo that Koran gives women all rights that wetern women even do not have. In your society women are used as sexual objects and nudity has been made a symbol for selling products.
By the way, what Australian values are you talking about? Do you think that nudity, using and exposing women’s bodies or supporting & encouraging women to walk nude on public places is Australian value?
I am afraid to say that Australian value is something bigger than that. Thats your own personal low level values that encorages you to desire to see the immorality and immodesty in women that you need to keep to yourself.

I hope Australian Government make some laws to ban nudity in public places that creates curruption in the society.

KarolF says:

09:42am | 25/05/10

Wow - I find it amazing how your argument doesn’t actually engage with the argument made in the article, which in many ways debunks these simplicities. But Islamaphobia is so much easier, isn’t it?

Terry says:

11:10am | 25/05/10

Hugo you could have put this comment on any article because it has nothing to do with this one. Maybe go back and read it again.

Just some advice, If someone writes something about the veil they are not asking for a racist rant.

Stephen says:

12:12pm | 25/05/10

Dude, you didn’t even read the article.

What we really need to ban is ANY public expression of ANY religion. Keep it to yourself and your home/church.

Dingo says:

12:27pm | 25/05/10

Rahi Adil, your attitude to Australian culture is at the heart of the growing resentment towards Muslims.

Many years ago our society was a lot more conservative. Over time our views have become more liberal and we enjoy the freedom that brings. For example, 200 years ago, swim wear was a neck to knee affair. Now people can wear a very skimpy bikini or just speedos.  One of the reasons this works in Australia is because we expect individuals to take responsibility for their own behaviour. A man may be sexually aroused by an attractive women in a bikini or mini skirt but he is required to behave appropriately. That you consider it immoral or immodest is an opinion you’re entitled to. However, that was the culture before you migrated. If that is too offensive to you, you should have chosen a society with a culture that is more acceptable to you.

I think at the heart of the latest attacks on the burqa is a resentment of the attitude you express and the fear many Australians have that continued Muslim migration will have the same results here that it has had in Italy, Spain and France.

Australia is one of very few nations in the world that has never had a civil war and we don’t want one. We also have no desire to return to the swimming attire of the 1800’s.

BTS says:

12:57pm | 25/05/10

...or ban burqa’s Dingo, for that would be the same thing, wouldn’t it?

faz says:

01:00pm | 25/05/10

Hugo, as the article suggests, most women choose to wear the burqa, so read the article properly if you can read at all. And please explain all this “australian values” we keep hearing, what is mate?? is it going to the pub on a friday night, get pissed, go get a kebab and a root at the brothel onyour way home???????? please tell me??????

BTS says:

01:05pm | 25/05/10

faz,

They sell kebabs at brothels now???

Banicks says:

01:23pm | 25/05/10

I really don’t care either way. This is Australia - you shouldn’t be wearing something that hides your identity.

Muttley says:

01:23pm | 25/05/10

its not the same thing at all BTS. Dingo made an excellent point. One with which many would agree. All are welcome, bring your customs and beliefs, just dont expect us to follow them. And try to make some attempt to fit in with the country you chose to emigrate to.
  And Faz, you want an example of Australian values? Do what you like just keep it out of my yard! Not getting pissed or going to the brothel. That has nothing to do with the debate and is actually quite offensive.

Terry says:

01:25pm | 25/05/10

@stephen “What we really need to ban is ANY public expression of ANY religion.”

Stephen - that will mean you would have no say also as a belief in NO god is still a belief system (way of seeing the world) which is a religious view.

JF says:

01:28pm | 25/05/10

faz says

The article doesn’t say that ‘most’ women choose to wear the veil but that some do.

I agree with this article. However Muslims must understand that, just as we must allow women to choose to wear the veil, we must also allow them to not wear the veil. I am sure that many Muslim women wear the veil not because they choose to but because they are made to. This is not enough of a reason to ban it but those women (all women) must be protected.

Dingo says:

01:56pm | 25/05/10

I don’t get your point, BTS. Have you ever tried swimming fully clothed? I did to gain my bronze medallion and it’s really difficult.

In the 1980’s Alan Pease released his book “Body Language” which explained a lot of the non-verbal cues we give in communication (it was about effective communication it wasn’t a political book at all).

One thing he raised was the fact that in our culture, the majority of us find men with beards and/or moustaches less trust worthy. By having part of their face covered we sub-consciously assume they have something to hide. He wrote this in the context of trying to get a job.

Maybe it’s relevant to the way many people react to the burqa. However, change is far better achieved by education and inclusion, than by any sort of ban.

BTS says:

02:09pm | 25/05/10

Muttley,

Who has asked you to wear a burqa?

The majority do fit in, they’re the ones with a job, family, priorities, you don’t hear how they are fitting in because that’s not interesting to the media.

Faz can say what he likes can’t he, you welcomed his beliefs?

Scotty W says:

02:11pm | 25/05/10

Banicks says:12:23pm | 25/05/10

I really don’t care either way. This is Australia - you shouldn’t be wearing something that hides your identity.

The burqa is a massive part of some womens’ identity

BTS says:

02:16pm | 25/05/10

Dingo,

You say, ‘We also have no desire to return to the swimming attire of the 1800’s.’

So you don’t want to be told how to dress in Australian society - same applies with the burqa then, right?

We should follow this up by banning beards and moustaches too.

Scot says:

02:25pm | 25/05/10

Dingo, Great comments thank you. This is what people do not understand. Read the papers in Europe to see what has happened. They have brought this down on their own heads. They have not assimilated and will remain a minority in this country. All of us have come to this country and assimilated. Multi culture is a failure in Australia and Europe because of the radical elements within their society that they cannot contain or refuse to contain?

Woza says:

02:49pm | 25/05/10

Terry…..... The guy said ‘Religion’..... ah, what’s the point?

DC says:

02:49pm | 25/05/10

What an ignorant comment.  Just go back to wearing your KKK robes and reading your copy of Mein Kampf.

jim morris says:

02:53pm | 25/05/10

Burqyor no burqa? Just a distraction. If you make the effort to learn about Islam you will see that it is an enormous threat to individual and societal freedoms because it is a self-replicating ever-expanding manifestation of human studidity. Wake up idiots!

DC says:

02:57pm | 25/05/10

@Banicks - “I really don’t care either way. This is Australia - you shouldn’t be wearing something that hides your identity.”

Like a beard?  Or moustache?  What about sunglasses?  Hats?

Personally, I would think that someone wearing a Burqa would attract more attention - and possibly suspicion - then someone not wearing one.

fox1 says:

04:22pm | 25/05/10

I have seen the videos, watched the interviews, read the stories of many wemen bashed, raped etc because they tried to refuse to wear a face covering. To say its a choice is outright bullshit. One reporter who was overseas for 2 years consideres herself an expert, while others have to clean up the mess Muslim males create by bashing wemen who refuse to wear it. I suppose going to school for gilrs was a ‘choice’ in afganistan while the taliban ruled it too hey?

Well yes, it was a choice, you just died if you chose the wrong way, which is the same as the burka etc. If the males in your family want it, you wear it, its not a choice for you to make, because if they catch you they will beat you if your found not wearing it, best part is the police will rarely get involved as its classified as a simple domestic, if the girl is not terrorised into staying silent.

Choice my arse, its just a way for Muslim males to make wemen unimportant, have no face and no identity.

Fred says:

04:38pm | 25/05/10

I have yet to see a burqa being worn in Brisbane , though plenty of young overseas students here wear the scarf, veil. Neither offend me, but I wonder how uncomfortably hot they get .I am grateful to live in a democracy where Hugo can claim to define Australian values and I can disagree with him. Thanks Sara. Understanding and acceptance of difference is the way to go. An intelligent and informed debate is what we need!

swallow says:

04:47pm | 25/05/10

Take away the incorrect thoughts on why the burqa is worn and just abolish it in public like we do face helmets and hoods in banks, Govt buildings and shops etc for security and identity purposes and safety.  Simple as that.  What are you hiding behind.

Smidgeling says:

05:46pm | 25/05/10

Rahi Adil- If you want people to accept your choice to wear a religious piece of clothing you may want to reconsider the way you speak to “immoral and immodest” Australians. Your post smacks of the same intolerance you’re accusing other people of having.

Also, one point worth making- expats in Dubai are expected to cover up for cultural reasons, yet you expect to wear what you choose here? Where is the equality in that?

I think anything that completely hides your identity, ie a burqa, doesn’t have a place in places that disallow people from wearing a motorcycle helmet. The worry is that someone (muslim or not) may exploit the clothing to commit a crime. A caucasian man recently tried to rob a bank in one.

Don’t get me wrong, generally speaking, I would welcome you to wear whatever you like here. I just don’t think muslim cultire can have its cake and eat it too. There should be a worldwide rule: either “when in rome, do as the romans” OR “do as your personal culture dictates”.

Down with double standards.

David Nesbit says:

08:29pm | 25/05/10

Sara is quite entitled to have her opinion and “more power to her” too that she has freedom of choice in her situation, in Australia.

The reason “why” so many other people across Europe, France and Britain want laws against wearing the burqa in public is because many Islamic women, in those countries, are forced to cover themselves when in public.

They do not have the luxury of free choice as they are forced to follow the “fundamentalist” interpretation of the hadiths in the Koran which relate to women dressing modestly.

A female can dress modestly without wearing the burqa!

This medieval form of restrictive dress has no place in our democrat society where females are treated as equals to their male counterparts.

They are not “pieces of meat”; nor sexual temptresses; nor lesser quality beings (to the male) and it is time that we emancipate the burqa-clad women within Australia too!

It’s time for all members of moderate islam within Australia to act and speak up about the need to throw-off the burqa and to embrace the freedom and opportunities within Australia instead of condoning the practice of hiding Islamic women behind the burqa.

May says:

09:51pm | 25/05/10

As a veiled muslim woman, i would like to say that i made the choice to wear the veil. The Holy Quran states that a woman must cover her entire body with the exception of her face and hands when out in public. The Burqa is NOT an Islamic law but rather a cultural one and it is much rarer these days for a woman to be forced to wear the scarf many woman choose to wear it because it shapes who we are. Veiled woman are the banners of Islam, ie, when you see a veiled woman you automatically know she is muslim. I urge people to learn about Islam, not to convert them, but rather to educate them and hope that they can understand how peaceful and fair this religion is. Please do not take everything you read in the media as factual because it isnt and dont let the small minority of idiots who claim to be muslim shape your view on Islam and muslims.

lockstock says:

12:48am | 26/05/10

This probably doesn’t relate but is worth note. People should probably be cautious when discussing sensitive issues such as this.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali has been in hiding since she wrote a short film entitled ‘submission’ in 1994. Not only did the movie discuss the wearing of the burqua it touched on other issues, as said by Hirsi Ali; “it is written in the Koran a woman may be slapped if she is disobedient. This is one of the evils I wish to point out in the film”

She opted to go into hiding after she received a death threat, that was attached to a knife, which was attached to the director of the film, Theo van Gough’s, chest. Van Gough (yes, he is indeed related to the artist) was murdered by a Muslim while walking down the street for directing the film.

ps. the film was entitled submission because that is the translation of the word - “Islam” ........ think about it!

Charlotte says:

01:32am | 26/05/10

Belgium is just about to ban the burqa and I strongly support this ban. I wonder why noone here is mentioning security issues. I personally don’t care if you run around naked or whatever you choose to wear, but it becomes an issue when you have 10 people covered from head to toe walking through banks and airports.

terrie says:

02:09am | 26/05/10

First of all to compare abortions to a veil seems so way outside the conversation. The safety of a country is needed to ID a person.  If a countries safety depends on the face as an ID then the person needs to follow the rules.  As for the feminist point of say sometimes they are to much.  When I needed help from police the first questions they ask was what did the person look like. They caught the person within the hour.

Muttley says:

12:21pm | 26/05/10

BTS you are 100% correct. Faz can say what he likes. As can i champ. He casts aspersions on the Australian way of life the i am equally free to call him a wanker. See how that works genius? Now how about another brilliant statement comparing the burqa to beards or hats. Cant wait for that!

john says:

12:34pm | 26/05/10

May
My understanding is that the koran says men and women should dress modestly, yet I don’t see any men wearing the burqa.

Brett says:

01:41pm | 26/05/10

I would love to get a group of women together, send one into the bank wearing a burqa, wait till she is served, then send a few in wearing balaclava’s or motorbike helmets with clear visors, then watch the police turn up, or a refusal of service at least. Then ask the question of why they will serve a muslim with only their eyes showing, but no one else with only their eyes showing? Racist? I would almost guarantee this would play out to plan.

Rahi Adil says:

09:55pm | 26/05/10

Dingo, is it my attitude towards Australian Culture or its your attitude toward Muslims is a problem. Just think about it if you have the ability to think. No Muslim has ever said about how non-muslims should dress. In fact its just opposite. Dont ever expect that Muslims women would ever ask you about how they should dress. The way muslims dress is their choice and no one has the right to tell them how to dress.

adil says:

10:08pm | 26/05/10

Muttley, hang on mate. “Do what you like just keep it out of my yard!” thats what you said, but at the same time you yourself are going to someone else’s yard by telling them how they should dress. What a hypocrite are you? If some one asked you about Australian values, you did not answer and said its not the topic and its offensive.

Come on Mr. Hypocrite, its the same thing with others. You do not offend others by telling them how to dress, its rude according to your so called values as well, isnt it??

Rahi says:

10:15pm | 26/05/10

Dingo, if you do not want a civil war please do not interfere with other’s personal life. You dress or even do not dress at all the way you like and let others dress the way they like. Its a simple formula, “respect others to get respectedf” and thats the only formula for peace.

Adil says:

10:39pm | 26/05/10

Dingo, if you find people with beard and moustache less trustowrthy, you have got mental issues. Lots of people who keep beard and moustache may think that people with no beard cannot be trusted as they believe they are shameless because of their nude face. If you have not something logical or reasonable to say, please stop writing.

Imran says:

10:49pm | 26/05/10

You are wrong Scott, when you came to this country you did not assimilate. Did you assimilate with aboriginal people’s culture. No you did not. You made your own culture.

Just for your information I would like to remind you that Australian constitution permits everyone the right to live and dress according to their own culture and needs, it is called multiculturalism. I am sure you have heard this word before.

DG says:

07:05am | 27/05/10

Rahi says: 09:15pm | 26/05/10

“Dingo, if you do not want a civil war please do not interfere with other’s personal life.”

It is comments like this - the threat of the use of violence to get ones way - that have caused certain groups to be rejected by the Australian culture. That thinly veiled threat is far more abhorrent to the Australian people than the dress sense of any religious or cultural group that you would care to mention.

Perhaps if what you want is to live in peace and harmony with the population at large, a good first step would be to leave the holy wars* in the past, and approach the modern era with a respect for the rule of law that makes this country great. That includes respecting the right of a person to hold opinions, and to advocate for legislative reform, that you disagree with.

As you said, if you want respect you must show respect. There is no respect in a threat of civil war.

I appreciate, or at least assume, that you raised the term civil war in response to the previous comment by Dingo - that does not make it permissible to threaten civil war if you do not get your own way. In Australia such threats are often taken to be the ravings of a madman or a violent tantrum by a spoilt child. It shows a lack of understanding of Australia’s history and plays directly into the irrational fears that some have about the threat posed by the growth of certain cultural and religious groups. You do your position no favours with such language.

*call it what you will - you, with that statement, threatened civil war with the Australian people on what many would consider to be a religious issue.

adil says:

11:39am | 27/05/10

Charlotte, that only demonstrates the level of crime your society has. Why muslims have to suffer for that? Burka is used in many other countries by majority of people, but crimes using a Burka is not a issue there at all?? It would be better if you talk about tackling crime in your society instead of blaming Burka.

Rahi says:

11:55am | 27/05/10

Smidgeling, that what I meant… you have proven it> Arnt you agitated when I say something offensive to Australian women.  But you people are continuously bashing and insulting Muslims women. Who has double standards, me or you?

Imran says:

03:12am | 28/05/10

lockstock, without having the complete knowledge of Islam or Koran you have been quick to point out that husband can slap his wife according to Islam. But you did not care to mention the circumstances under which it is permitten. 

There are lots of domestic violence in Christian society such as murdering husband, drunk bashing their girlfriends, girlfriends killing their own children because they want to go to another boyfriend and many others. Just check daily newspaper to get the statistics. Domestic violence is so grave in Christian society that government has to put advertisements on TV to increase awareness among female victims. Do you think that these murders and violence is less serious than small slaps?? Wake up mate.. no one is fool here. Tell your stories to someone else who can believe on it.

ant says:

07:35pm | 28/05/10

Heh… and I always thought that Australian values include a fair go for all….

Matt says:

10:58pm | 28/05/10

Agree with Hugo. Wear it at home even done the street, but in certain areas it should just be banned Full stop. It’s simply a security risk and there is no justification on religious grounds. If all western governments back this and leading Islamic scholars like that Egyptian guy also back it. Islamic Moderates will be embolden and push these islamofacist out from both Western and Middle East and Eastern societies where all they are doing is actually causing harm to themselves and the image of the religion worldwide!

Bill says:

02:50pm | 29/05/10

The burqa is fine as long as the face is not covered. Covering your face is rude to others if you wish to be a part of public life, you should be able to be identified as well for security reasons and on behalf of the wearer if you shouldn’t be going outside the home if you wish to remain hidden. I was watching a documentary on the burqa and the women made this statement “I don’t want any other man to look at me other than my husband”. That is paranoia, how ridiculous! Grow up, evolve for Gods sake. Both Strict Muslim and liberal Muslims need to stop criticizing modern western culture and accusing us of not being accepting, multicultural or ignorant of faith. All of as humans need to begin to evolve. The primitive traditions of religion and society of the past belong in the past. The modern burqa should be allowed to be worn but without a face cover. It simple, evolve! Become a part of modern society.

Susan says:

03:07pm | 29/05/10

Look at the end of the day I respect people’s individuals beliefs as long as it’s returned (not in some religions that’s for sure) and if women choose to wear such garments it’s their choice.  However, let’s remind everyone,  if you are in a country not your own you do have to make adjustments for social/religious reasons (enforced severly in some places).  For that reason alone I would remind everyone coming to my country of an old saying ... “when in Rome ...”, if not, why did you come here ...

Laura says:

03:39pm | 29/05/10

This whole article is interesting but I too am affraid I am opposed to the burqa. I go to a gym and I regularly interact with different women some of whom are muslim and thats fine, we get along. But the minute they leave the ladies only gym, on goes the burqa. I can’t say hi if I pass them in the street because I don’t know who they are. They know who I am, I don’t know them. Once the burqu is on I feel the person I was talking to is gone. I accept these women when I see their face but when I can’t they may as well be a ghost to me.

S says:

04:19pm | 29/05/10

Well said Hugo…I couldn’t agree with you more. If only those rediculous bleeding harts out there see this too. If the govt had sense theyd see it happens….after all…are we Australia? or Arabia?

Mathew 5,6,7 says:

07:55pm | 29/05/10

just another red-neck aussie with so little understanding of the real issue. im australian…..what are my values that this “flies in the face of?” i dont oppress woman to the point of telling them what they can and can’t wear. maybe you do, so maybe you’re the oppressor of woman….makes sense to me

Sophie says:

10:11am | 30/05/10

“I find the fact the Christian parents in Western Australia can force their girls not to have abortions if they want one equally as abhorrent as Muslim parents forcing their children to wear the veil.  “

Surely the life of a child means more than a piece of material? Furthermore, from my understanding Islam definitely does not advocate abortions and encourages its followers not to abort unless in extreme circumstances.
Sorry but that arguement does not stand.

Elise says:

03:33pm | 30/05/10

I agree with this article and support the writer’s views.

adil says:

03:42am | 02/06/10

Bill, Who are you to say what Muslim women should wear. Burka might be outdated for you. I think you should start living in Jungle as living in houses should be outdated now, as people are doing this for thousands of years. If you do not like old tradition, you should die as thousand years ago people also used to live.

Bill, no argument can be as stupid as yours.

Scooterpunch says:

09:28am | 04/06/10

Isn’t telling someone what they can (or can’t do) just another form of repression?

Aziz says:

08:06am | 02/05/11

Its basic Australian Values. People should be given a ‘fair go’. Making laws on what people should were in Australia is not a ‘fair law’ and ‘fair system’ or giving people a ‘fair go’. Its racial vilification. Its like telling a Korrie not to wear what is native to their wonderful history. We all come from different backgrounds and beliefs. Its what makes us interesting enough to ask about each other, not fight. I find people that support such bans, generally like to create divide. They don’t hate Islam, they just hate people that arnt like them. Peace and God Bless Australia.

Andy says:

11:05am | 25/05/10

Some of those moustaches can be quite erotic as well. (Whistles, catcalls).

faz says:

01:15pm | 25/05/10

hey boof, oops i mean biff, with a name like biff im sure your hair or eyebrow aint that flaming hot is it geezer???

Col says:

05:31pm | 25/05/10

@ Dingo at last some common sense in this endless debate, banning a persons attire is just wrong. No matter who they are. Some of the rantings you hear and read lately are just plain embarrassing to both cultures. We must get along as a nation the sooner everyone realises that and stops bickering over religion and respects one anothers choices the better. A bit of tolerance would go a long way on both sides.

Lisa says:

08:39am | 26/05/10

Smidgeling:- wow I 100% agree and stand buy your comment… I have read the majority of I guess you can call them debates and its just back and forward the Muslim commenter are suggesting that Australian females are subjects such as sexual objects and Australian commenter are fighting back saying Muslim women are oppressed.
I am an Australian women and consider myself to dress quite modestly and to date with the western culture in which our country AUSTRALIA prides its self to be in. we are not in the middle east which demands us to cover up. We are in Australia which gives us the freedom to wear as we please. I live in an area of Sydney where I am surrounded by women that wear the hijab and I am 100% ok with this. I am writing this comment also not in accordance to wether the women is being made to wear it or not. That is none of my concern I’m speaking from an Australian women’s point of view of public display and freedom.
I am just as offended if a women walks passed me with shorts so short I can see half her bottom as I am when a Muslim women walks passed me with a burqa on…
In my opinion it’s down right frighting. If they choose to wear it in the street and at home I have no concern. But every Australian that is EVERYONE that lives in Australia is NOT aloud to wear baseball caps, helmets, jumper hoods etc. into banks and public places of such importance than uncover you face veil and show our country the same respect to the law that we have to. No one wants a ban to the hijab just to the burqa. And believe me if I could ban walking around the shops in next to nothing I would as well… modesty is the key. Not OVER doing it or Under doing it…

Imran says:

01:20am | 28/05/10

Very sensible talk Lisa. I appreciate it. However there is one issue, how can anyone get offended if someone is covered in full cloths? While I understand the embarresment of others with nudity. However, security issues in banks can be reasonably understood. If I would be a bank employee, i would definitely like to make sure that I am safe when i see anyone with face covered.

Another aspect is that Burka has never been a security threat ever in countries where women widely use them from centuries. To make it logical and reasonable, I would say, burka is not a problem. The problem is, crime in Australian society that makes people to believe that they can be attacked from anywhere. I think it would be better if we talk about reducung crime rate in Australia , instead of bashing burka.

Em says:

08:11pm | 28/05/10

@Imran Please note I am speaking only on Muslim women in Australia

People are offended by head to toe covering because they don’t understand what it means in the context of the culture it came from, and for that they are threatened. It seems to me that we Australians feel the need to change everything to OUR way, OUR style make it easy for US to understand. Everything needs to fit into a box of what we define as the norm.

If a ‘normal’ (Forgive my choice of words) Australian woman wore such a outfit people would immediately assume she had something to hide. Whether it be her identity, her confidence or some disfigurement.

People need to back off, not everyone in the world needs ‘saving’ or your opinion of whats acceptable forced upon them. When they cry for it, then help. Until then, people are just thrusting their self righteous ideals down peoples throats and disguising their inability to accept or try to understand a culture other than their own.

I have never had a Muslim or any other religious group try to force their beliefs upon me, I don’t see why I would want to force mine on them.

adil says:

01:55pm | 29/05/10

EM, As you said, “f a ‘normal’ (Forgive my choice of words) Australian woman wore such a outfit people would immediately assume she had something to hide. “

This means Australians need to be educated. The world is not what Australian people think. They need to learn the concept of tolerance and brotherhood. Some Australians are scared because they believe burka is a security threat. In fact not a single crime ever happened on Australian soil where any criminal has used burka to commit a crime.
I would simply say that Majority of Australians are racists and bully all reasons they have mentioned on their posts are infulenced by racism. This has even been proven by recent attacks on Indians in Australia.

Penny says:

10:49pm | 29/05/10

Adil, please check your facts before making claims such as ‘In fact not a single crime ever happened on Australian soil where any criminal has used burka to commit a crime.’. Maybe *you* need to be educated:
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2010/05/06/2891505.htm
I can’t actually believe people have been fooled into thinking that this is a women’s rights issue. Governments who have banned or who are planning to ban the burqa from public settings need to stop using women’s rights to make their policies more palatable to the media while practicing their legal right to govern. It is a kick in the teeth to their citizens, particularly women, to tell them they are protecting women’s right while at the same time taking away their right to wear any garment they want. Instead, how about they grow some stones and be honest: they are banning the burqa because it is a security risk and it is incompatible with their culture. Australians have every right to ban something that they, as a majority, do not want in their culture. Racist? Tough.
The suggestion that crime rates in Australia are higher than those in Islamic countries because our women do not wear burqas, or that crime rates in Islamic countries are lower than those in Australia because their women do, is painfully ridiculous. Actually, the suggestion that crime rates in Islamic countries are lower than those in Australia at all is ridiculous. Do you have sources to support this claim? How’s the view from up there on your high horse?
To those who are questioning the risk a burqa poses to Australian society- be realistic. We need to be able to identify people’s faces in public places, whether they’re Islamic, Catholic, pygmy, Russian, wizard or, most offensive of all, American.
I do not like burqas, not because I am uneducated and do not understand them, but because I do not like that particular manifestation of an interpretation of Islam. I think it provides an excellent disguise for criminals, and I would rather look at the wearer’s lovely face. If the idea of a stranger seeing a woman’s face is not compatible with someone’s religion, then I do understand and I am genuinely sorry that it causes any pain or moral dilemmas but unfortunately it may have to be a compromise some people will have to make to have the right to live in this country. If I am in a minority with that opinion, I would be happy to concede. If I am in the majority, it is our right to see that opinion come to be policy.

BTS says:

08:28am | 25/05/10

It’s more likely, that’s what you have been led to believe through the western media, than the actual truth.

annie says:

09:17am | 25/05/10

BTS what! it comes to mind cartoons of Mohamed, south park et al

BTS says:

10:37am | 25/05/10

Precisely Annie, you have been brainwashed by Western Media.  Most religion have their fundamentalists who aren’t representative of the general group.  Is it possible that the Muslim faith suffers the same issue?  Does the Western media report on the decent, civic minded folk or promote peaceful existence?  Did you know they exist or is it possible you have only been told what the sensationalist media want you to believe?

Peter says:

11:26am | 25/05/10

@ Annie, you display a complete ignorance of muslim culture. The women wearing the burqa’s don’t feel oppressed, in fact many choose to wear it.. Some of the snobbiest muslims can be found wearing burqa’s. Perhaps you feel you should shove you values down their throats (because you’ll free them if you do that). Perhaps your idea of a liberated women is one showing off her G string through her mini skirt.. That’s liberating and classy stuff.. And you talk about violence against muslim women like domestic violence doesn’t exist in Australia… Your head is buried in the sand…

annie says:

12:33pm | 25/05/10

BTS who are the decent civic minded i would love to hear from them but we never hear from moderate muslims condeming atrocities carried out in the name of Islam. the silence from our nations Imams is deafening. and peter what!  Saudi Arabia and Dubai come to mind oh yes feedom of dress certainly applies ...Not… Kiss on the cheek equals 3 months jail. religious police can whip women in the street who they deem to not be dressed modestly enough freedom of choice What

Dingo says:

12:39pm | 25/05/10

“Perhaps you feel you should shove your values down their throats (because you’ll free them if you do that).”

Actually Peter, I think that’s what many Australians feel Muslims are doing with an air of moral superiority. To do so in a nation that you have chosen to migrate to is obviously going to cause resentment.

Peter says:

12:56pm | 25/05/10

@ Annie, religious police in Saudi Arabia can whip both men and women.. You can isolate cases to try and turn this into a woman thing if you like, that’s just what feminists do these days…

@ Dingo, i don’t think the muslims are doing it to us at all. I think people are reflecting on their own morality and if they feel the muslims are surperior, then that is up to them.. Let’s not forget, the media has been casting negative views about muslims for a couple of decades at least now.. Its not as if Muslims have such a loud voice in this country…

faz says:

01:18pm | 25/05/10

Peter, i couldnt agree with more, i just wish more aussies had a mondset like your’s instead of these boofheads commenting.

JR says:

01:42pm | 25/05/10

In terms of this issue lets get one thing straight. You cannot just wear whatever you like in this country. You cannot walk down the street naked. You will be arrested.

Julie Barnes says:

01:46pm | 25/05/10

Annie, you have said it so well in only 6 lines.  I will add one thing though ...  Islam is not unlike other religions when it comes to brainwashing.

Scot says:

02:18pm | 25/05/10

Annie. Yes you are so right about your comments. One only has to read the issues in France, Belgium and Holland to see and understand what has been going on, this is why they have taken steps to curb this behaviour and abuse of the Muslim religion. None of this would have come about if it was not for the people inside the Muslim religion denigrating the religion and those that follow it. Good things we have freedom of speech and can vote for our society. Multi culture has been a failure in Australia. What we want is Australians. In Indonesia if you change from Muslim to Christian they will kill you. And in Sabah they have been forcing people to change from Christian to Muslim or be killed. Gus Dor had to step in and stop this heinous behaviour. They ahve also been burning down Christian churches.

Proud Infidel says:

02:49pm | 25/05/10

Thank you annie, I don’t understand why the feminist movement in the West that managed to over turn a thousand years of religious conditioning and cultural practices to justly get equal rights. Now has some in that same feminist movement, spending time and energy to find reasons to justify the same religious conditioning and cultural practices in Islam, under banner of cultural relativism.

DC says:

03:03pm | 25/05/10

@annie:  “BTS who are the decent civic minded i would love to hear from them but we never hear from moderate muslims condeming atrocities carried out in the name of Islam.”

What rock have you been living under?  I’ve heard quite a few Muslims condemning the activities of the extremists.  Perhaps you haven’t “heard” of any because you don’t want to hear them.  Heck, a quick Google of “muslims condemn extremists” shows “About 321,000 results (0.33 seconds) “.  Climb out from under that rock and you might just be a little surprised at what really happens in the world - not just your narrow view of it.

Nancy says:

03:36pm | 25/05/10

Annie, I absolutely vouch for your opinion on this, it is a sad truth that today women are still forced to wear the burqa, and true it may be that some may ‘chose’ to wear it. What i find offensive about the burqa is not that it is worn, but rather what it represents - just as you suggest.

Sara has suggested that we should appraise women who have chosen to wear it, and in turn socially accept, yet what she fails to account for, is that at the inception of that kind of acceptance, wearing the burqa will be justified to all women who wear it (mainly those who it has been forced upon). This in turn will appease all men and be used against women who are reluctant to wear it as a weapon. You cannot simply throw an article like this and accept no responsibility for the consequences of it.

This is not a western view, as I am from the Middle East and cannot tolerate the idea that these views that the so called ‘western media’ has implanted, is a western development, rather it is of a universal development.

Those women who ‘chose’ to wear the Burqa are not all making a ‘free’ decision, most are undoubtedly motivated by their cultural and social surroundings. They in my opinion can go ahead and wear it. Yet when contrasted against the women who are forced to wear it and have been persecuted for not doing so, it is an inequity to justify it socially. It is then that what society is doing will become offensive, accepting the very thing that is leading to so many womens demise, it is the ideology behind it that you are justifying, when you are accepting it and if their world doesn’t want to acknowledge that, certainly the west should not be held accountable for accepting it, who then will fight for them?

Peter says:

04:39pm | 25/05/10

@ Nancy. Are you suggesting that only muslim women have a cultural pressures on them on what to wear? I love the way you open you statement in saying that they are forced to wear a burqua even though they choose it… I love that.. The worst piece of cultural pressure i have ever seen is that of a 130 kg women wearing hipsters, exposing her g string and a tasteless tatt above her bum. Now that’s bad…

@ Annie, just who do you think has been bombing who? And you say they are using violence against us.

@ Pround infadel. What sort of conditioning of people is acceptable to you? Is it the one that has 7 year old girls practicing wearing lip stick. Not sure what you mean about conditioning..

Did you know there is still a 100 year law in place that any woman who is not covered from ankle to neck at Brighton Beach in Melbourne that they can get arrested to indecent exposure.. Were there muslims in legislative positions in Melbourne 100 years ago?

John Collins says:

06:33pm | 25/05/10

Peter, you mention a “complete ignorance of muslim culture”. I thought that Islam was a religion not a culture. Is wearing the burqa a tradition that predates religion? Why do some predominently Islamic nations insist on women wear some kind of head covering and others do not (notably Turkey)? If wearing a burqa is a choice that muslim women make why do some islamic nations insist on non-muslim women complying with the same convention?

Peter says:

09:15pm | 25/05/10

@ John, i know that the burqua is a cultural thing not religious, but some cultures have blended this outfit into their religion. I know as a Christian we don’t all observe Christ in the same manner and we do some thingsthat are not necessarily in the bible to show our faith. I know that some places insist on the type of clothes women wear and others don’t, but we are talking about Australia. I have no problem with a muslim woman being asked to remove her face covering while in a bank or an airport but to ban or to legislate against clothes is going to far.

Missy S says:

11:40am | 26/05/10

ANNIE as you mentioned Dubai and Saudi Arabia is a small minority.
you’re just ignorant. relaying on info from South park. have you never been to school or read something other than a magazine or watched something other than a stirical cartoon?
If you know there are many muslim nations where there is no burqa. Burqa is cultural not religious. I am a muslim, but not from an Arabic nation. either way that is irrelevant. however, the burqa is not mentioned in our holy book - Kuran. You’re only supposed to cover your hair, therefore your face is visible. But it doesnt mention that its forced upon you. it has to come from within, from your heart. otherwise, there is no point.
sounds to me like you have islamic-phobia.
what you wear shouldn’t determine whether your 1st or second class citizen.

Adil says:

03:29am | 28/05/10

DC, Every Muslim who has knowlege of Islam condemns all types of terrorism whether in the name of Islam or not. They also condemn terrorism act that USA has done in the name of destroying weapons of mass destruction in the illegal war. The act of terrorism done by USA has killed millions of innocents in Iraq and Afghanistan. I never see many Christians condemning those acts, they you should not expect Muslims to condemn terrorism acts being done in the name of Islam. Many Muslims see this as an act of self defence though do not agree 100% the way it is done, however, the fact is that those people have no other ways and means to register their anger and resentment over the injusties done to them. Have Christians ever raised voice against the torture that Israel is doing at present and has done in the past against Palestinians? Israel killed thousands of innocents in recent attack on Lebanon. Where was you then? So if you support killing and hurting Muslims, you should not expect that Muslims would say anything against killing or harming Christians.

adil says:

03:33am | 28/05/10

JR, get your facts right. I have seen many people walking on the street naked on numerous occasions, they were never arrested.

Erica says:

02:47am | 29/05/10

Annie, I think you have been brainwashed

OddCreature says:

06:55pm | 30/05/10

@Dingo - You’re an idiot. If a person wears a burqa and says “I choose to wear this because of my culture” they haven’t forced anything on anyone. It’s only when they say “I choose to wear it, and you should to” that someones morals are being forced on someone forced. No Muslim is going around Australia telling Western women to wear a veil, but plenty of Aussies are telling Muslims to eat pavlova. So who’s forcing values down whose throats?

Lets call this what it is shall we? My family is Scottish, we emmigrated from Glasgow, and yes we live in Australia, we have Australia passports, we have barbecues, we drink beer, we celebrate on Australia day… but we also like to enjoy some traditions from the old country, like wearing a kilt or tartan, playing bagpipes at weddings and funerals, eating shortbread at Christmas time and dumpling at New Years, etc. No-one ever tells us to “assimilate” because for a Scot to observe their cultural past is acceptable. But when a Muslim, who also has an Aussie passport, enjoys barbecues, drinks beer and celebrates Austrlia Day, chooses to wear a burqa it needs to be stamped out.

Australia is meant to be multicultural - that should embrace all cultures, not just the ones we like.

notsurprised says:

09:02am | 25/05/10

Security issue

Joan says:

09:33am | 25/05/10

Yes there is - the majority of Australians don’`t want it as part of national daily public attire - polls have shown that and a referendum would set it in place.
Open face for Australia! Keep the burqa at home - nothing stopping women or men doing that ever.

MenarefromMars says:

09:56am | 25/05/10

As a motorcyclist - you cannot enter a petrol station with your helmet on, yet a woman - or anyone really can enter with a burka?
That’s just one practical example.

Jane says:

10:17am | 25/05/10

I agree. It’s funny that whenever there is public debate on what people wear it’s always about women’s clothing choices, never about men. Men can choose to wear whatever they want (even if it’s a dress in the style of the pope) and observe their religion how they want. But as soon as women try to reclaim the space and freedom to do so, everyone seems to have an opinion.

BTS says:

10:37am | 25/05/10

notsurprised,

What’s the security issue?

BTS says:

10:39am | 25/05/10

MenarefromMars,

So if women who wear are burqa remove the veil whilst in a petrol station you would support it then?

James1 says:

10:44am | 25/05/10

That is not a reason to curtail liberty notsurprised.  I agree with the American revolutionaries on this one: those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.

MenarefromMars - alongside rights come responsibilities.  If a person exercises their right to cover their face, alongside that is a responsibility to not do so in a bank.  If they choose not to show their face, they must accept that they have also chosen to bank online, or use an ATM.  That particular issue does not necessitate a blanket ban on an item of clothing.

Sean says:

10:47am | 25/05/10

Not in keeping with Western values of openess is a valid reason. It’s got nothing to do with the oppression of women. It is a Middle Eastern cultural practice that has no place in Western society

AJ says:

11:07am | 25/05/10

Fashio Crime?

PaulB says:

11:23am | 25/05/10

Fine, why hasn’t the balaclava rated a mention?  Please don’t insult us with your mock concern for our security.  That’s a fraudulent argument and you know it.

BTS says:

11:52am | 25/05/10

Joan,

We live in a democracy, you don’t get to tell other people what to do and what to wear.  How is it that you can speak on behalf of the ‘majority of Australians’ when you really have no idea what the majority think?

MenarefromMars says:

11:52am | 25/05/10

PaulB: Tell when was the last time you saw someone wearing a balaclava? In a movie I would presume.

I have never seen one in public.

Markus says:

11:55am | 25/05/10

PaulB, I mentioned the balaclava in a post that conveniently has not been displayed.
Anyone wearing a balaclava in any situation beside a ski field is already viewed with suspicion.
The big difference is that with the balaclava, logic prevails, and people are not jumping up and down crying racism because they cannot wear a balaclava in a bank.

James1 says:

12:01pm | 25/05/10

Sean, to ban it is not in line with Western values of liberty.  What is more important to you?  Preventing other people from expressing their culture in a way that does you no harm, or your liberty?

MenarefromMars says:

12:07pm | 25/05/10

BTS: If you change it from “petrol station” to “indoors” then yes.

BTS says:

12:10pm | 25/05/10

Motorcycle riders wear balaclavas.

BTS says:

12:15pm | 25/05/10

Sean,

They are your values of ‘western society’, not the rest of ours.

notsurprised says:

12:22pm | 25/05/10

BTS, the security issue is lack of identification.

adil says:

12:31pm | 25/05/10

notsurprised, you know its a lame excuse. Come up with something logical and valid.

imran says:

12:37pm | 25/05/10

Joan, why dont you keep ur dress at home and come out in Burqa? In a democracy people are free to wear any type of dress they want, exactly like you do with your bikini (although immodest). Why majority of Australians would like to impose their way of dressing on others? Australia is a democratic country, do you know?

BTS says:

01:14pm | 25/05/10

MenarefromMars,

How do you feel if the rest of us tell you what you can and can’t wear?

Matthew says:

01:16pm | 25/05/10

Everyone saying that Australia has free choice of dress is wrong.  Walk through the middle of any city in Australia naked and see how far you get.  Personally I don’t like Burqa’s as it hides a person’s face, to me it is as much a security risk as just plain rude but I’m just 1 of 20 million people and it isn’t against the law (yet) so I deal with it and just ignore it.  What others wear is their choice and I suck it up when people are walking around in a Burqa or leather clothing wielding a whip.  Others should do the same and choose when they get a chance to vote.

Sean says:

01:27pm | 25/05/10

I’m surprised that you don’t see ‘openess’ as a Western value BTS, considering some of the comments on this matter I think a lot of ‘us’ do.  Also your comment that ‘you don’t tell people what to do or wear’ is amusing it is so wrong, what do you think our laws do..they give us guidelines on what we can do and wear (public nudity is a no no)

However as much as I don’t see the need for a burqa I think this is a non issue, how many people actually wear one?

Fairone says:

01:29pm | 25/05/10

Maybe there is & maybe there isn’t, however when western woman can walk around Saudi Arabia or Iran in their normal attire it might sit a tad better with me.

notsurprised says:

01:40pm | 25/05/10

Adil, if you want something logical and valid read my other post further down the list.

Sean says:

01:41pm | 25/05/10

James1
In a democracy our personal liberty is constrained by laws and conventions, I accept that as a part of living in a democracy. Openness must be balanced with personal liberty in this case. 

I agree with your response to MenarefromMars, as long as they remove the veil I don’t have an issue. Although the article interchanges the terms I don’t have an issue with hijab only with burqa, niqab that cover the face. (not being a Muslim I’m relying on the internet for a definition of the various coverings)

Hamish says:

01:43pm | 25/05/10

This exchange is tiresome. BTS, I agree the Burqa should not be banned in public. Notsurprised, obviously individual businesses and shopkeepers, etc, should and I think do have the right to refuse entry to someone who obscures their face. It is a security issue and anyone saying otherwise is simply wrong.

BTS says:

02:24pm | 25/05/10

Sean,

I am surprised that you don’t see wearing the burqa as ‘openess’.  We are open to wearing what we like in this country and why should others tell us what to do, if it harms no one?

Unfortunately, Punch bloggers don’t make a qualified sample audience.

Yes we have laws against nudity and there are reasons for that, we don’t have laws against blue jeans, white shirts or brown shoes, but since it amuses you I imagine we should.

Joan says:

03:31pm | 25/05/10

In democratic countries we have the right to see the open face of the person we speak to and business with - let`s keep that way. Open face - face to face Australia

Nudist says:

03:32pm | 25/05/10

Surely if people are allowed to cover up as much as they want, they should be allowed to cover up as little as they want?

Patrick says:

10:15pm | 25/05/10

When the f$%k did it become ANYONE’s business what ANYONE else is wearing?

Truckle the Uncivil says:

10:20pm | 25/05/10

How about the fact that they can’t see properly when they drive.  I ride a motorcycle and have nearly died twice because of people (presumably women) failing to see (or acknowledge) that I am also on the road.

This culture depends on photo ID to function.  A photo of a piece of cloth or the refusal to remove it to see the face and compare is inadequate.  It does not conform to law or practice.

In many ways and places it is already illegal but the law is not enforced.

Brett says:

10:45pm | 25/05/10

Sorry BTS, it is a paranoia that sensible people have that since 9/11 we have become more wary of an identity being hidden, it is too easy for anyone to be behind a face veil, male or female, admitedly anyone also can wear an explosive vest, whatever they wear. Lately though no one seems to be more extremeist and expresive of their dislike for mankind than muslims. Not a completelt exhaustive example but look at Iraq, Sunni against Shi’ite, muslims but even thay can;t get along after a 1200 hundered year old event.

BTS says:

06:25am | 26/05/10

Brett,

The paranoia is your issue.  How would you feel if our lives were run by minority groups in Australia?  Anyone can carry a bomb under whatever clothes they are wearing.  You seem to indicate that suicide bombers only wear burqas which is ridiculous.  Finally, you have no idea about mainstream muslims and what they believe in, they openly and completely denounce the extremists.  How would you feel if everyone believed that the beliefs of some religious cult in Australia were taken as the views of all us?

Brett says:

11:47am | 26/05/10

BTS,

You are correct the paranoia is mine and all those who shie away from those who wish to remain incognito, I agree that anyone can strap a bomb on under any clothing. I was mearly stating the base reason behind the many comments here. Be honest and admit that there have been very few cases of suicide bombers of non muslim beliefs attacking innocents. It is this history of crazed believers that decent muslims are fighting against, not non believers. I can totally agree that not all muslims are extremists however the Muslims in this country are sadly lacking decent leaders of the non religious type to represent them. Admittedly we are only aware of the extreme comments as this is the way sensationalist reporting works, however not enough is done to promote the loving side of islam. Sorry to say though that we are effected a great deal by minorities in this country, ask any White Australian Male how much we are disadvantaged. P.S. I believe all religions to be outdated cults that do very little of what they purport to do.

BTS says:

11:57am | 26/05/10

Brett,

I do agree.

We shouldn’t let minority groups with their own agenda dictate to the rest of us how we should lead our lives nor tell us what to do or what we can and cannot wear, be they muslim, western or whatever…

Brad says:

12:26pm | 26/05/10

BTS, if you can’t “see” the security issue with a burqa you must be blind, unless we start using retinal scanning as an identity check anyone, male or female could be wearing it. Anyway Islam is a theology based on oppression and violence not a religion.

DG says:

01:07pm | 26/05/10

Brad - If you are concerned about people wearing things that pose a security risk, extend it to all attire that could pose a security risk. If not, then you expose the hypocrisy of your argument.

In fact far more backpacks have been used to conceal explosives than any other attire. The next most threatening method of concealment is probably cars, followed by jackets…

The number of confirmed cases where the traditional head to toe dress of a woman has been used to conceal an explosive device are minimal - by comparison to these other techniques.

BTS says:

01:51pm | 26/05/10

Brad,

How many crimes have been committed by people wearing burqa’s in this country?  None?  How fair is it to ban an item of clothing based on your insecurity?  I am pretty sure that if someone describes the bank robber has wearing a burqa, dozens of people will recall seeing that, if anything it draws more attention.  Do we ban sunglasses on the same basis?  They restrict identity of the face? 

You obviously haven’t investigated muslim/islamic issues with any depth.  If you did you would find that oppression and violence is exactly the opposite of what the culture is all about.  Open your eyes, don’t be swayed by mainstream media hysteria.

Brad says:

07:18pm | 26/05/10

DG I am not saying that they hide explosives under them I am saying that you could be anyone under it. How would you determine who is using who’s drivers license for example.

rahi says:

03:49am | 28/05/10

Sean, beach is a public place and if you open your eyes you will find many nude women there. Public nudity is a yes yes in Australia. I have seen many times totally nude people walking on streets during weekends. In my opinion you are on drugs like 80% of Australian population.

Imran says:

02:10pm | 29/05/10

Brad, If you really want to know what Islam is all about, go to the website mentioned at the bottom of this post. you will find lots of videos and literatures explaining Islam from scientific point of view. If you have tjhe capability to understand logics and reasons explained by science then only I would suggest you to go that website.
Another way is to search for Dr. Zakir Naik on   http://www.youtube.com 
to get proof and compare between religions. I am sure if you have logical brain, you’ll find the truth.

adil says:

02:22pm | 29/05/10

Brad, if yoiur society has got many security issues, it does not mean that everyone else has to walk nude on the street. You better deal with the security issues among you people. For your own crimes you people are just torturing others, its really shows the type of people you are. I am sure you wpould have heard the word “racists”.

Danny says:

09:24pm | 29/05/10

Didn’t two guys wearing burqa’s hold up a armourgaurd or something recently??? More will come… We are going to the middle east & I will make my wife stroll around in a 2 peice bikini… It is my religion of being a natrualist… I wonder what will happen…

Joan says:

08:59am | 25/05/10

Ban the burqa- show your face - nothing better than seeing nature as is. I just laugh that anyone thinks burqa is acceptable dress. Imagine if every male and female   had to wear burqas except wives who were made to walk open faced. - In this scenario imagine how to vote card ,  politicians mug shots. What`s the point of a driver licence and passport if everyone walks about burqa clad?  The black burqa clad person - scares the daylights out of little children and others - the outfit resembles that of a coven of wicked witches or the black Australian crow that picks at carcasses . No burqas for Australia - in the bin. with this type of garb. Who cares what feminists think- it`s what Australian society wants that counts and I would say no burqa for Australia would win if the question were put to a referendum

DG says:

02:17pm | 25/05/10

Joan: “Imagine if every male and female had to wear burqas except wives who were made to walk open faced. - In this scenario imagine how to vote card ,  politicians mug shots. “

You’re right, if people were like that we’d have to base our opinions on peoples words and behaviour rather than the colour of their skin, gender, facial hair or other irrelevant physical traits. It would make it so hard to judge people based on their inherent physical attractiveness. You’re right - it would screw up the world for so many people out there who base their decisions on such things.

Gavin says:

04:58pm | 25/05/10

They are paying hommage to the great australian bush ranger-
NED KELLY. Can’t get more Aussie than that!

bigwal says:

06:06pm | 25/05/10

I have seen a photocopy of a drivers licence of a woman with only the eyes showing through her full face cover. Well done Vicroads!

Rose says:

06:18pm | 25/05/10

Wow, Joan has just demonstrated how uneducated some people are. Coven of witches, really? You’ve just demonstrated how small minded and uneducated you through that ridiculous statement. Intelligent people would teach their kids that its just another form of dress for people who believe in islam. Who cares what the feminists think? no one cares about what you think. You have demonstrated that you are just another idiot suffering from islamophobia. I feel sorry for you.

Joan says:

08:36pm | 25/05/10

Rose- what`s uneducated about witches there are plenty of them in the the Western world. like the KluKlux clan they don’t wander the streets displaying their beliefs we don’t need burqa hocus pocus outfits in Australian streets either

adil says:

02:30pm | 29/05/10

Bigwal, its lie. RTA will never issue a drivers licence with face fully covered. All this statement is influenced by racist behaviour.

OddCreature says:

07:28pm | 30/05/10

Joan - all the witches I know wear pentagrams or tri-knots on necklaces to declare their faith.

So not only are you totally uneducated about Islam, you also seem to be totally unaware that Witchcraft (Wicca) is in fact a religeon (legally recognised in some countries) and that those who practice it are in fact fairly open about it.

Eric says:

09:04am | 25/05/10

We already have laws about what people can wear in public. Public nudity is illegal.

Oi says:

10:37am | 25/05/10

Eric, seeing some people naked would be causing harm to others. Especially fat people or old people. No-one wants to see that!

Anthony is right. Wearing the burqa as an expression of free will and faith doesn’t do anyone harm except the feminists that want to promote their own ideology and who can’t handle someone making a different choice to them.

Arguing that wearing the burqa is not Australian because Australians are free to wear what they want when it doesn’t hurt anyone is unAustralian

BTS says:

10:41am | 25/05/10

Eric,

Wouldn’t that be what people aren’t wearing in public?

Brett says:

10:52pm | 25/05/10

What would be the reaction to a male, even a western one at that wearing a burqa? As we have all realised that a person has the right to wear whatever they wish.

Mistress D says:

10:06am | 26/05/10

Oi, I’m a feminist (get your pitchforks ready, I’m with the other monsters on the mansion on the hill)

As far as women in Australia are concerned….I’m a feminist. That means I am committed to supporting a woman’s choice, even if I wouldn’t make that choice myself. As long as woman is aware she can make a choice about what she does, then that’s all I would ask.

I don’t agree with covering of hair on women, I don’t agree with wearing next to nothing and making out with other girls to attract a man either. Both are equally degrading in my view, but, both are choices that I support.

My opposition to the covering of a face, however, has nothing to do with what’s between someone’s legs.I don’t care for the reasons behind someone covering their face (some argue that it’s not in the Koran that a woman has to cover herself, I don’t know for sure, I haven’t read it) in Western culture it’s unacceptable. Australia, despite being a multicultural society, still has very strong base in Western culture.

If I went to a country who expected me to cover my face or hair and I refused to, you’d tell me I should respect that countries beliefs. Maybe it’s the extremist feminst streak in me, but I think respect is a two way street.

Missy S says:

11:42am | 26/05/10

Anthony right said!
I dotn see them doign harm.

and for the ignorant readers/writers:
Balaclavas exist.. what are they for then? shouldnt they ban that?
thats a way to hide your face if your here to hurt people.
funny how they only relay it to one thing. as always.

lisa says:

12:14pm | 26/05/10

here here joan… good argument…

Dan says:

09:12am | 25/05/10

What about brides?

This is absurd. You can not legally mandate seeing faces. Whether it is ‘unacceptable in modern australian society’ is not only debatable but irrelevent. Using the law to ban clothing is itself completely unaceptable.

Jason says:

09:48am | 25/05/10

I agree- and I think the author of this article and those who support her argument, are confused.

I don’t see it as an issue to do with gender- but one associated with civility.  I refuse to speak or interact with anyone in close proximity if I can not see their face- man or woman.  I think all workers (government and private sector) should also be able to refuse to interact with someone who has their face covered.

If someone feels that special that they can not extend the basic manners of face to face contact then I would rather them stay at home and not participate in the community

Imran says:

10:11am | 25/05/10

Australia is a multicultural country. Anyone who has objection the way other cultures live can go out of this country. Help may be provided to these types of sickos to find a hypocrite country more suitable for them.

tyu says:

10:46am | 25/05/10

More correctly Imran, Australia is a free country not a multicultural one. Muslims should be able to wear the Burqa, build Mosques and follow Sharia, but other Australians must be free to disagree with the practise. In other words, whoever wants their culture to flourish more in a certain area deserves to dominate.

James1 says:

10:47am | 25/05/10

So we will also ban motorcycle helmets, balaclavas, ski masks, asbestos masks… I could go on, but I have seen these examples in just the last two days in public areas.  Funnily enough, the type of face covering I have seen the least lately is the burka.

Andrew says:

11:12am | 25/05/10

Imran, Australia is an accepting country but our national identity does not allow for the subjugation of a group simply because of their sex. If people have no tolerance for that they should not come here in the first place and attempt to impose their cultural views and religious beliefs on the majority of the population. And certainly if people like you start telling the silent majority to go somewhere else if we don’t like it you are just asking for trouble. I don’t see too many posts from female muslims supporting the Burqua. Probably not allowed to use the internet.

PaulB says:

11:20am | 25/05/10

If we are such a free country why are we even having this debate.  If we ban the burkha then we need to ban balaclavas if security is the issue.  It obviously is not because this remains unmentioned so it must be culture….fine, lets ban the sari, the sikh turban, the Nun’s habit or better yet lets ban the Yarmulk, after all its representative of a minority culture that is alien to Australian values and loyalties etc. etc., and Jews seem awfully concerned with social justice, so I’ve no doubt they’d willingly be first to set an example for the common good….......Helloooo….....any takers??

When you’ve all settled on a final “acceptable sounding” cover story about why we should ban the Burkha, then I’m sure we can move on.  Until then, feel free to continue bashing Muslim women for being Muslim women, and making them even less likely to give it up freely.

Nicole says:

11:21am | 25/05/10

Wow Imran, what a way to add credibility to your argument. Name calling will get you nowhere.
Super D, well said. I couldn’t agree with you more.

Super D says:

11:24am | 25/05/10

Imran that is one view of multiculturalism, that anyone can come here and live however they choose and that where there is an incompatibility the existing residents must yield.  It is not the view that I hold. 

I take the view that more recent arrivals have looked at Australia and siad yes I want a piece of that.  It is therefore up to them to adjust or choose a country where they would be more comfortable and go there.

Bruno says:

11:43am | 25/05/10

Imran, supporters of the full face veil hope that its public presence will lead to its social acceptance, Once that this acceptance is established the next step is the public recognition and acceptance of the values and politics that are driving this phenomena. The next, next step will public recognition and acceptance of other religion practices such as Sharia laws, polygamy etc…

Therefor I am quite happy to leave that “culture” out, even if it tramples on the “agency”, “autonomy” and “power to make my decision” of Sara and her full face wearing friends.

Matt says:

11:56am | 25/05/10

I completely reject the practice of cultures that infringe on the human rights of another person. As a signatory to the UN convention on human rights, Australia is also obligated to so,

Whether or not the burqa is a human rights abuse is another debate. However suggesting Australians have no right to object to anything because it is part of the culture of someone who left that culture to enjoy the benefits provided by Australian culture is absurd and offensive.

At the heart of this debate is a growing impatience with cultures who demand respect for their traditions whilst flat out refusing to acknowledge or respect the traditions of other cultures.

Fred says:

12:05pm | 25/05/10

No Super D, it is unacceptable in modern Australian society to limit or restrict any item of clothing.  If the government can say we’re not allowed to wear burqa’s, what’s to stop them saying we’re not allowed to wear any other item of clothing?  It is our civil right to wear what we choose to wear and not be punished for it.

BTS says:

12:06pm | 25/05/10

Jason,

You don’t have the right to demand what people wear or don’t wear, you don’t have the right to determine what’s civil and what’s not (those are your internal issues, why should anyone change their lives to suit how you feel and if so could they demand you change to suit them?) and you certainly don’t have the right to excommunicate people from society.  Perhaps it is you that should remove yourself from society, since you don’t seem to want to interact with others unless it’s on your terms.  Where did you gain the idea that you dictate what other should do?

BTS says:

12:20pm | 25/05/10

Super D,

Coming to Australia and adopting their values and culture, also means that so long as they obey the law, they can wear what they want and do what they want, those ‘are’ our values.  It’s a democracy.  I can’t tell you how to live your life, why do feel you are able to tell others how they can?

Gee Jay says:

12:22pm | 25/05/10

I agree Super D, it is demeaning to the the woman concerned and to all other women as well! It is ,in my eyes,digusting to be dressed in such a manner..It is nothing less than the subjugation of women-unAustralian and unwanted here!!  As i have said before-there are aeroplanes leaving every day!!!

Jason says:

03:20pm | 25/05/10

BTS friend-
I have every right to decide on what terms I will interact with people, and to define what I think is acceptable.  So does everyone else.  I think it is unreasonable for someone with their face covered to expect me to treat them with a high level of respect as they have already shown a lack of courtesy towards me.

I am not going to bother giving an in-depth explanation for my logic, but is is based on what i perceive good communication to be and that it involves verbal and non verbal cues- maybe something for you to read up on?

Lastly, I do not believe I can dictate to anyone, however if I said that a dated text tells me that I can would you accept and tolerate that as an excuse?

me my mo says:

03:45pm | 25/05/10

BTS - Simply saying people can wear whatever they want is shortsighted, over-simplistic and doesn’t add much to the debate.

BTS says:

05:19pm | 25/05/10

Jason,

Just as you have the right to decide what terms you will interact and you acknowledge everyone else should set there own terms, then how is it you deem what they will wear and what they won’t.  If we decide that from this day on you can’t wear blue jeans because we deem them antisocial, how will you react when we shun you?  Will you think it fair?

BTS friend-
I have every right to decide on what terms I will interact with people, and to define what I think is acceptable.  So does everyone else.  I think it is unreasonable for someone with their face covered to expect me to treat them with a high level of respect as they have already shown a lack of courtesy towards me.  I know all about communication and verbal/non-verbals - democracy and liberty are more important to me.  People here make demands of other cultures and races that they wouldn’t tolerate if they were the ones having demands made on them.

As for texts, let people believe what they want.

BTS says:

05:22pm | 25/05/10

me my mo,

You should consider your own contribution and it’s weight before evaluating others.

Super D says:

06:12pm | 25/05/10

What about brides and their veils, what about motorcycle helmets and what about balaclavas?  Clearly if an element of our society took to wearing them on a regular basis and not for the intended purpose that would be a problem and one that should also be legislated against.

If a group within our society took to wearing balaclavas as regular attire its hard to imagine this would be tolerated.

As for motorcycle helmets the same would apply.  Banks for example instruct that helmets are removed prior to entry and I can’t say I’ve ever seen anyone wear a helmet while out for a days shopping or a stroll in the park.

Oh and BTS if you think everyone is free to where whatever they want why not get yourself a T-Shirt with one of those Mohammed Cartoons on it and wear that…

laino says:

06:45pm | 25/05/10

@Jason ” I think all workers (government and private sector) should also be able to refuse to interact with someone who has their face covered.”
Unfortunately, I suspect that muslim men who came up with the idea of the full-face burqa (regardless of who ‘chooses’ to wear it, it was a male invention surely) had exactly this in mind.  They don’t want their women to be able to properly interact with other members of society (namely other men).  That is why the burqa is a symbol of oppression.  It is not about the wearer being rude, it is about them being invisible when they are out and about. 
Anyone who disagrees with this and thinks it is racist, can you please explain to me the logic and or reasoning behind covering your face? (I’m not talking about covering the hair or body, just the face).  If someone can explain this giving reasons that are not sexist in anyway, I would be extremely surprised.

chatterbox says:

08:34pm | 25/05/10

I agree with Jason.
I wear Hijab, so only the scarf, with me its more a fashion thing more than anything else. I wouldnt feel comfortable dealing with anyone wearing the burqha, my stomach actually churns when i see some one wearing it. I don’t think its an Islamic attire.
For all the other muslims commenting, seriously i believe in freedom of choice and speech, but do you honestly agree with the burqha, try it on and lt me know!

Patrick says:

10:24pm | 25/05/10

laino who said religious beliefs had to make sense in any way shape or form? I’m gobsmacked at the amount of bigots from my own country commenting on here about how the burqa should be banned because its “unAustralian”... F$%king retards, the lot of you.

me my mo says:

10:44pm | 25/05/10

Maybe I should BTS, however unlike you, I haven’t made over two dozen replies to this article reiterating the same, stupid point.

Imran says:

09:44pm | 26/05/10

Bruno, what an idiotic argument like a true hypocrite. Who is asking you to accept any single Muslim practices. The matter is very simple and that is.. who are you to decide what Muslim women should wear? Wake up mate. Its a modern world. If you do not like to be told how to dress, you cannot tell others as well. Its a very simple theory. I hope this goes inside your head.

laino says:

12:30pm | 27/05/10

@Patrick, I never said the had to make snese, but they are not arbitrary, they are rooted in some belief no matter how non-sensical.  Also, I never said it was ‘unaustralian.’ I do not believe there are traits or behaviours that are inherently Australian or unaustralian.  I do, however, believe in right and wrong.  And just as I thought, you could not answer my question.

Scot says:

02:59pm | 29/05/10

Imran. Yes we are a democratic and tolerant country and your are abusing it. This is not the case in the middle east as you are fully aware. I have seen this first hand in Saudi, and Pakistan to name a few. The religious police and the hypocrisy of woman being forced to dress up when outside or be arrested, having to sit in the back of a caged bus and cannot drive, and when at home wearing the latest European fashion and the men enjoying the latest wines and alcohol all behind compound walls.

Adil says:

04:26am | 02/06/10

Scott, do you mean that I have not got any right in Australia to wear whatever I like?? If I do it would be abusing my right.. it does not make any sense to me. Its bigotary. If you have right to wear anything you like, Muslims also have right to wear anything they like. Comeon mate Australia is a free country.
Soudi Arabia is an Islamic country and laws their are based on some Islamic principles and some on Arabian culture. Every country has their own laws like Australia. If you do not like laws of Saudi Arabia , do not go there.  You lied about Pakistan, there is no religious police there, everyone has the right to wear whatever they like, off course within the boundaries of decendy, not like Australia where all immoral acts are permitted in the name of freedom.

BTS says:

09:01am | 25/05/10

Why do you object to a face covering veil?

Lorrie says:

10:22am | 25/05/10

You’re right, Person!
no one is talking about bans on Hijabs it’s only face coverings that generates debate. The letterbox look from some Muslim women is confronting in the Western world.

BTS says:

12:23pm | 25/05/10

The outfits of Meter Maids are confronting to some people.  Do we tell them what to wear?  No, we tell those affronted to get over it, it’s Australia, we can wear what we want.  Why doesn’t those rules apply in reverse?

notsurprised says:

01:50pm | 25/05/10

BTS, it is more than the veil, it is the representation of an extreme interpretation of an ideology. Extremism in all forms of theology has no place in our society. Moderation and acceptance only works both ways. The outfits of meter maids are confronting, however they are superficial and don’t represent a belief that is exclusive of others. Would it be offensive if someone where to wear a KKK veil out in public?

Hannah says:

02:33pm | 25/05/10

I agree BTS the Meter Maids are confronting as are the Burqas! I think you’ll find Women that are feminists aren’t too keen on the female body being objectified. There are lots of women in our society that are causing us to take a backwards turn in society in terms of how far we’ve come to obtain the rights we have! Women in burqas have the same effect on our society in terms of women’s rights as Meter Maids, so do you suggest we do nothing about either and let the situation get worse?

Sergio says:

03:19pm | 25/05/10

@BTS Do you reckon a woman could get away with wearing a meter maid outfit in Saudi Arabia?

Aint it funny how the Muslim world can impose strict dress codes in their countries but get upset when Western Countries do the same thing.

I am amazed at the number of softies in this country who will willingly drop their pants and bend over rather than fight for the retention of the values that made this country great.

Sri says:

03:33pm | 25/05/10

BTS…I have no issues with face covering veils as a religious symbol but they can be a security threat. It has been misused in the past and who is to say it won’t be in the future? All Aussies have a right to walk the streets in our own country without feeling insecure.

BTS says:

05:33pm | 25/05/10

notsurprised,

Would it ‘surprise’ you that in muslim countries where I have lived, the muslims don’t subscribe to you have learnt to be an ‘extreme interpretation of their ideology’?

‘Extremism in all forms of theology has no place in our society.’

What about the extreme Christians?

‘Moderation and acceptance only works both ways.’
From living there, 90% or more are moderate, they shun the extremists themselves, they don’t like them and they openly state they don’t represent their beliefs.

You have only been told it’s exclusive, you haven’t seen it on a daily basis.

KKK members are allowed to wear their clothing are they not?

How would you feel if your religion was misrepresented across the world by mainstream media?  It’s not an accurate representation yet nothing you do will make them print otherwise.  How fair is that?

It’s like saying all Australians are heroin dealers because the Bali Nine got caught.  Your a dealer, I am a dealer.  You and I know it’s not accurate, but the rest of the world is told that’s what we are.

Is it possible, at all, that what you think the Muslim faith is, from what you have been sold, is not true?

BTS says:

05:45pm | 25/05/10

Sergio,

The Muslim faith extends outside Saudi Arabia. (wiki lists 47 countries).

So you tie your beliefs to just one country?  Perhaps we are all the same as Americans just because we are allies, we believe their beliefs, accept their absolute authority and are happy to bomb whatever they are?

‘I am amazed at the number of softies in this country who will willingly drop their pants and bend over rather than fight for the retention of the values that made this country great.’

We are fighting for our values, the right to be free and wear what we want to wear, say what we want to say. do what we want to do.

I am amazed you see government intervention on what clothes you can wear as representative of a liberal democracy.

BTS says:

05:54pm | 25/05/10

Sri,

How many crimes have you seen committed by people in burqa’s?

What other items of clothing should be banned?

Gloves?  They hide fingerprints.
Hats/Helmets/Ski Masks/Balaclava’s?  They hide faces.

They’re security issues aren’t they?

Dan says:

09:52pm | 25/05/10

Sergio, to compare Australia, a liberal democracy with Saudi Arabia, a theocracy is absurd. There is no comparison.

Hannah, if you were a feminist you would realise that women have choices, and the choices include wearing a burqa and being a Meter Maid. Or do you only care about choice if you agree with the choice being made?!

notsurprised says:

12:12am | 26/05/10

BTS, you are entitled to your opinions even if your assumptions are way off the mark.

BTS says:

07:17pm | 26/05/10

They aren’t assumptions.  Please let us know your familiarity with muslim countries and culture.

James1 says:

10:52am | 25/05/10

All valid criticisms.  I still fail to see why we should curtail liberties because of these issues.  Liberty is a far more important and fundamental principle than “annoying”, “disturbing”, or “rude”.  Personally, I find it offensive and unreasonable that anyone would want to curtail liberty because they think something is absurd or rude.  That is what they do in Saudi Arabia, not here.  I thought we held ourselves to a higher standard.

Rover says:

12:54pm | 25/05/10

I don’t want to ban the burqa but, like Rebecca, can’t understand why anyone would want to wear it.
I’m disappointed that Sara didn’t give any reasons why women choose to wear it. Would have made a much more compelling case than just saying don’t judge them for making the decision.

Rose says:

02:01pm | 25/05/10

I agree completely with this post.  I personally don’t understand why someone would actually WANT to wear a veil, but I think they should feel free to do so if they actually do.  However, they should also understand the barrier to communication they are constructing between themselves and the vast majority of society when they cover their faces, and quit complaining about the narrow mindedness of others who feel an inate distrust of people who find it hard to relate to a stranger in such circumstances.

Dean says:

03:01pm | 25/05/10

Rebecca, it appears your fundamental problem is you don’t understand it. So because of that and the fact it makes you scared and uneasy, it should be banned.
Sounds like you just need to get over yourself and understand that other people hold different values and value certain things more than others. Just because you don’t understand why a woman would want to wear it, doesn’t mean it’s wrong. It just means you lack understanding. Obviously from that rant, you’re too ignorant to actually do some of your own research, you just listen to the tabloids.
How many women do you see everyday that actually wear a full face veil?

Rebecca says:

04:03pm | 25/05/10

I don’t think I’m lacking any “understanding”,  have a"fundamental (or any other) problem” ,  am certainly not “ignorant” and   nor was I having a “rant’, Dean. Just expressing my right to an opinion, although different from yours. Is that not okay or is that what a ‘rant’ is? I didn’t even say the burqa was “wrong”.  However,  clearly there are issues. Specifically, as I DID say, the main concerns surround potential security risks in certain contexts which are obvious. However, we do live in a society so one has to consider the implications of any behaviour in that regard.  ‘Liberty’ is an interesting issue which seems to have taken on different meaning in this generation. But it was never intended to do whatever you like and the hell with society or any other individuals. Which meaning it seems to have taken on increasingly nowadays. Some Muslims, I understand from my ‘research’ still practice   infibulation . Perhaps even in some communities in Australia. Should that be allowed too, at the risk of imposing on anyone’s civil liberties?  But whose? The ignorant perpetrator or the victim? Finally, I was not suggesting that the burqa should or could even be banned because I personally find it disturbing - as to many others - or rude or annoying in that the face is fully covered and excluded from all engagement or scrutiny in any exchange. We don’t make laws in any western country or probably even in Saudia Arabia, for those reasons, James1.

Loz of Oz says:

05:10pm | 25/05/10

James1… couldn’t agree more.  At the end of the day - no one has the right to not be offended. You have the right to be free to do as you choose as long as you’re not harming anybody else in the process. The government has gone down a very slippery slope by continuously enacting legislation that prevents free people from doing things so that some people can feel a false sense of security. Security is never guaranteed - even if no one ever wore a burqa, or a balaclava, or a motorcycle helmet - there will still be bad people that do bad things to others. I have no interest of restricting the liberties of good people because of a few bad. Further - children will only be scared of something if the adults in their lives teach them to fear something. Maybe if you stopped looking at muslims as people to be feared, your children would be more accepting.

lilly says:

01:20am | 29/05/10

Well said Andrew.
I totally agree. Wearing the full face covering offends people because of what it represents; oppression of women. Look at when, where and why it was originally bought into practice. And yes others say but women have the choice to wear it or not now but that was never the case; and that is what leaves a sour taste in peoples mouths.

MenarefromMars says:

10:41am | 25/05/10

Craig:  when was the last time you saw someone wearing a balaclava or stocking in public.

Your reasoning does not add up. Based on your reasoning all knives should be banned if they used in robberies.

Markus says:

11:09am | 25/05/10

I think you will find that wearing a stocking on your head, or a balaclava in pretty much any situation besides being outside in the snow, is already immediate grounds for suspicion of criminal activity.
But unlike the burqa, people aren’t up in arms about being denied the right to wear a stocking on their head, as they realise it is a sensible thing not to do in this country.

James1 says:

11:59am | 25/05/10

MenarefromMars - I saw three people wearing balaclavas in Civic in Canberra just this morning.  I also saw a woman covering her face with a scarf, and a child wearing a Spiderman mask.  I saw no burkas, though.

MenarefromMars says:

12:24pm | 25/05/10

James1: Maybe Canberra isn’t the ideal location to be comparing the use of burkas v balaclavas. Are you a nimby?

James1 says:

01:16pm | 25/05/10

MenarefromMars, no, I was just responding to your question to Craig.

And yes, I suppose I am nimby, in that I will not tolerate (in my backyard) the nanny state curtailing the liberties of women because some people feel a little scared around women who hide their faces.  That is a direct assault on the freedoms of Australians.

What is the difference between a cold cyclist wearing a balaclava and riding in public areas and a woman wearing a burka, exactly?

inquisitor says:

03:06pm | 25/05/10

I agree with you Craig, and @James1 - great comment.

Who’s to say we shouldn’t ban any form of costume that disguises your identity? I see plenty of people dressed in animal costumes around the Sydney CBD on a daily basis. Are they “Accepted in Australian Society”?

James1 says:

12:15pm | 25/05/10

That is not irony.  Does anyone even know what irony is?

MenarefromMars says:

01:20pm | 25/05/10

James1:
Its like rain, on your wedding day.
Its like a free ride, when you’ve already paid.
Its some good advice, that you just didn’t take.

Marion Jones says:

01:54pm | 25/05/10

Nic Karandonis I find that term “slut” totally offensive to any Australian woman. Your not helping your cause here Sarah.I personally don’t care what you wear but don’t judge women in this Western country, Australia, as being low of morals because they choose not to dress like you

James1 says:

03:07pm | 25/05/10

MenarefromMars,

Those are examples of bad luck.  Irony is the use of words to convey a meaning that is the opposite of their literal intention.  This is irony: Nic has completely and totally understood the author’s intention in using the word “slut”.  Perhaps (and only perhaps) Nic’s criticism of Sara for expressing herself poorly is ironic, but then this depends on how Nic meant what he/she is saying.

MenarefromMars says:

03:55pm | 25/05/10

James1: What’s ironic is that I quoted you the lyrics to the song Ironic by Alanis Morisette and you didn’t realise it.

The song is an excellent example of Irony.

Your example of irony is a little convoluted.

James1 says:

06:50pm | 25/05/10

Never heard of her, sorry MenarefromMars.

My example conforms perfectly to the definition.

Sydney Girl says:

03:23pm | 25/05/10

You have put it SO well ... totally agree and I wish everyone would read your comment.

I am a women and I find the full face veil offensive in the extreme.  I am also completely saddened to think that women would CHOOSE to wear something that millions of women would do ANYTHING to be free from ... that is the truth and they are pretty much giving those poor women that are forced to wear this a slap in the face. 

It is an outdated and oppressive symbol.  Life is meant to be celebrated, not covered up, especially when it’s only the women that is required to dress like this and not the man. 

As stated above, no-one has any problems with the basic veil, nun’s habit, turban, etc but this FULL veil is a symbol that REALLY offends my way of life.  Australia is right to take a stand about our values, and liberty is one of them ... this veil does not represent that and if you want to live within that culture then find a country that supports the values that it represents ... though I think you’ll find those countries aren’t so big on freedom and values that we hold.  They dictate what even tourists must wear or if you can kiss in public ... so you tell me ... which country should you show more respect for and adopt our traditions and way of life.

notsurprised says:

12:28am | 26/05/10

Sydney Girl, its hard to believe that the very people who are screaming freedom of rights are the ones unwittingly perpetuating the inequality. Maybe Australia’s fair go attitude will be turned against itself, I hope not.

ABC says:

04:14am | 28/05/10

notsurprised, skirt has every place in Australian society, the bikini does not. Bikini should be banned. All shops tha tsell bikini should be asked to remove bikini from the shelves or risk losing the registration of their business. Only because some people support bikiny cannot be used to justify the use of bikini. There are lots of people who feel offended by that. Government should care all of its citizens, not only one section of it. Bikini should be made illegal to wear ASAP. This would help reducing crime in Australia. Many women with bikini have been involved in crimes. There would be no crime if there is no bikini.

notsurprised says:

08:26pm | 28/05/10

ABC, that is a ridiculous arguement and you know it. The bikini is neither synonymous with, nor representative of an extreme religious ideology. Extremism in of any theology has no place in Australian society and Australia is an egalitarian society for ALL people not just a few.

Daniel says:

08:33pm | 28/05/10

@ ABC what are you on about? bikinis are a form of swimware not casual attire and when they are worn most of the time at the beach or around a similar place and therefore has no relevance to the discussion. on top of that, if you want bikinis banned, one would think you want speedos as well?? you are a tool

This post is about the covering of the face and only the face! I would guess that the vast majority of australians dont care about the covering of the rest of the body, as stated in the post

James1 says:

12:07pm | 25/05/10

The difference, Andrew, is that we live in a Western liberal democracy, and thus hold ourselves to a higher political standard in terms of the liberties and freedoms we afford our citizens than your average theocracy.  No one is asking you to do anything different - it is you who is asking this of others.  And that is highly undemocratic of you.  I had no idea that so many people in this country held our political traditions in such contempt until delving into this debate.

BTS says:

12:26pm | 25/05/10

You haven’t been to many Muslim countries have you Andrew?

Fred says:

01:20pm | 25/05/10

This is a secular country - big difference.  Religion is different to culture, especially the ‘Australian culture’ (whatever you think that is)

Andrew says:

04:18pm | 25/05/10

So people from secular countries which are non-muslim should also have the same rights, from example what about Judaism? And should we tolerate Sharia law as well? I’m not sure how well stoning people to death in the streets would sit with the average man in the street.

Rebecca says:

04:25pm | 25/05/10

Now, Tom, what you say about surgical procedure is not correct. Patient’s faces are NOT covered up during surgery.  Doctors,  nurses and any technicians involved cover up THEIR faces during surgery. That is done to prevent/minimise any introduction of microorganisms (germs) during surgery. Specifically, we all have bacteria normally in our mouth and therefore carried in our breath. Hence, the face masks. So harm is minimised for the sake of the patient and a good result for all.

Kitty says:

03:13pm | 25/05/10

I agree Mato.  If it’s a free will thing, why do we see female children wearing the head covering once they reach a ‘certain age’?  Surely this is instilled in them from an early age that it is an expectation of being a female.  If this female child ends up in an arranged marriage then you can be fairly sure that she will be expected to wear the burqua.

Runs With Scissors says:

05:16pm | 25/05/10

I don’t like the burqua but if western nations ban it, this could bring serious repercussions upon Muslim women, who may then be viewed with distaste by Muslim men. We should not be compromising their safety in the name of liberation.

Truckle the Uncivil says:

10:56pm | 25/05/10

@ Runs with scissors:  Check your facts.  If we ban or restrict its use we are only doing what some Muslim countries already do.  There is a Muslim country north of here that forbids them to public servants because they are too extreme.  Google is your friend (until recently).

Of an extended Muslim Family says:

12:02pm | 26/05/10

@Kitty, how is it different from a Christian child participating in confirmation or a Jewish child participating in a Bar/Bat Mitzvah?  Surely this is also expected from a certain age.

Rahi says:

05:35am | 02/06/10

Kitty, you do not even know what you talking about. Arrange marriage has nothing to do with burka. You need ato see the world before you qualify yourself for such type of sensitive arguments.

steve says:

03:44pm | 25/05/10

“No one in this debate appears to have surveyed the opinions of women who cover their faces and asked them the reason why they choose to wear it”

That would be because you can’t get a representative sample when you can’t identify who you’ve surveyed.  For all the surveyor knows they could ask the same woman with her face covered 100 times and think they’ve asked 100 different women.

Jules says:

05:53pm | 25/05/10

Nic I read both your posts and I think you’re the only one that has picked up on the level of yes ‘irony’ of this article and whole debacle of the burqa.  Like you I was appalled and disgusted at her choice of words and found the article to be limp and void of any reason or logic and just emotionally charged to defend what she is more or less born into.  Interestingly whenever a muslim woman does feel the need to defend the burqa or Islam they protray women only as sluts, prostitutes, whores etc and men as animals that can’t control or contain their cardinal desires of which they feel a certain moral responsibility to cover up to deter such out of control behaviour!!!!  Such an insult to both women and men generally….period!!!  And whilst they scream loudly “don’t generalise us” in the same breathe contradicting themselves all I find them doing is just that….generalising every one else.  Feminist…I’m sure they are just as divided in their opinions as everyone else so back such double standards!!  For a start to all the muslims making loud protests and such insults…..you don’t get it….start treating people the way YOU want to be treated and get off your high horse of religious superiority…because frankly at a deeper issue this is what it’s all about!!

bigwal says:

06:17pm | 25/05/10

They have a photo of the face fully covered as you would see them in the street.

AussieGirl says:

11:32am | 30/05/10

Actually bigwal, they have a picture of the face fully UNcovered.  Same with passport and all other photo identification.

The Burqa/Niqab is lifted for identification if necessary.

rahi says:

05:31am | 02/06/10

Elphaba, if you are talking abou tdomestic violence, you should talk about Australian society as domestic vilence is rampant in this society. It is so bad that when people see muslim women covering their face, they think they are oppressed. In fact its just opposite. Its just oppressive face of western society that reveals its face when people talk about other cultures.

Peter says:

02:32pm | 25/05/10

Eleanor, i reckon we should ban western style clothing from airports and banks because ive never seen a terrorist or a bank robber wear burqua’s. They have only worn western clothes.. I think anyone in western clothes should strip down before entering banks and airports..

Eleanor says:

12:45am | 26/05/10

Haha, I get what you mean Peter. What I was getting at, was the sort-of precedent already set - that is, if someone wearing something that obscures their face (such as a motorbike helmet, balaclava, or mask or scarf) enters a place like a bank, they are required to remove it. Is it wrong to required women who wear a veil for religious purposes to remove that as well?

Peter says:

11:06am | 26/05/10

@ Eleanor, i agree with you. Yes ask them to remove it while in a bank or an airport, but i don’t agree on a blanket ban. I don’t like the burqua but i don’t want to be telling people what they wear. As long as it’s by choice in have no problem with it.. A little give and take is all that is required here i think..

Jo says:

03:39pm | 25/05/10

I so totally agree with you.

surprised says:

02:11pm | 25/05/10

Are there still such things as feminists? wow my mum used to be one of those…ooohhh about 30yrs ago!!

James1 says:

12:10pm | 25/05/10

I think that the point is you should not force someone to act against their conscience.

Peter says:

12:43pm | 25/05/10

Shameful to say the least. Feminists engage in all manner of shameful behaviour and comments these days..

6c legs says:

02:02pm | 25/05/10

“I don’t want to be friends with anyone I can’t see”

then you best hope that you never go blind.

adil says:

05:18am | 02/06/10

Emma, women who wear burka do so only in the presence of men, not women. So you would not have trouble making friendship with them. You will find them more friendly, more humane and more curteous than most so called free Australian women.

David says:

12:40pm | 30/05/10

Anna C, your comments are hurtful to Muslims who were born in Australia as Australians. Why do Australian Muslims have to move to a “muslim” country that is not theirs, just because they wish to practice their religion? What about Aboriginal Muslims? Do they have to move too? To you, Australians are “white” europeans? Isnt that racist? Maybe you are in denial? Just like many european Australians who claims they’re not racist when they say hurtful comments like these. In a Muslim country, the minorities are protected. It is part of the Sharia law to protect the minority Christians and Jews as
“people of the book”. Shouldnt it be the same here? With the minorities being protected and not humiliated and shamed? Islam has been around for 1400 years and why only now Muslims are targetted? You know Muslims are shocked and horrified as well when the september 11 happened! Then out of a sudden, Muslims are the bad guys! As i’ve told so many people, you dont learn about Islam from Atheists and Television, you learn Islam from Muslims. Just like you dont learn Karate from a Taekwondo instructor. Our education system needs to change to suit multiculturism and not white australia.

BTS says:

11:56am | 25/05/10

How many crimes have you seen committed by people wearing Burqa’s?

Your safety argument is hollow.

C says:

06:09pm | 25/05/10

What seriously? There was recently a bombing in Russia where a woman in full Burqa blew up a bus. And that’s the tip of the iceberg. Go have a scan through some Sub-continental news sites and have your tiny mind blown.

BTS says:

05:05pm | 26/05/10

C,

How many crimes without wearing a burqa?

You going to ban those clothes too?

6c legs says:

01:49pm | 25/05/10

Gee, Helen? nothing but *crickets*  re your point about Bolt, Bernadi and co.

This issue is much bigger than ‘women supposedly wanting to wear the burka’ (every.single.day.of.their.lives when outside the home, if there is the smallest chance that they may meet up with a male not from their family).
  The author has yet to learn that being female *doesn’t* automatically equate into being a learned feminist.  (but no doubt her [male] religious leaders keep telling her that she is -being as she’s a female that can both read and write.. /sarc - it means that they’re off the hook!)

SmithPbuh says:

08:23pm | 25/05/10

Oh Helen, these people called you the wrong names, The proper nomenclature is Islamic apologist without a clue. I choose to call myself an Islamophobe when it comes to discussion on burqa and Islam in general.

Here is the definition I chose to use for an “Islamophobe” such as myself: “A non-Muslim who knows more than they are supposed to know about Islam.

Islamophobia is a fear of losing life or liberty to Islamic rule merely because the laws, sacred texts, and modern practices of Islam demand the submission of culture, politics, religion and all social expression.  It tends to afflict those most familiar with the religion, while sparing the more gullible.”

Hamish says:

01:19pm | 25/05/10

Very true. As I point out below (and I think others have as well), the Niqab is a cultural more than religious practice. Indeed in some countries, such as Malaysia and Indonesia, wearing of Burqas, Niqabs and Hijabs is a growing ‘trend’ - a religious fashion statement - and has little historical precedence. I am also (grudgingly) against a ban, but I’d really like to find a convincing argument consistent with my own ideology for a ban. The wearing of any dehumanising garment should disturb and offend all Australians, but my overarching feeling is one of sympathy for women who wear them either because they are forced to or perhaps even more because they want to. My sympathy extends to the author of this article whose loyalties are clearly conflicting and confused.

BB says:

04:29pm | 25/05/10

What do you mean “extreme, Wahabbist Islam”. They are NOT extremists, they are FUNDAMENTALISTS. They believe in the fundamentals of the religion, as preached, thought and practised by Muhammed.

Luke says:

12:10pm | 25/05/10

Will you go out with me?

Helen says:

01:56pm | 25/05/10

And where did you “hear” that? Can we have links to any feminists to apologise for FGM?

Proud Infidel says:

03:39pm | 25/05/10

Helen, I had heated conversations with women who consider themselves be left wing on this issue. Its had know what the left stands for any more. Nick Cohen comments on this very well in his book, What Left? The Left and this applies to some in the feminist left is ‘Flailing in a quagmire of mashed-up values and watered-down principles, the Left now defends fascists and champions a crippling cultural relativism that preaches ‘tolerance’ at the expense of justice, truth and freedom.’

The chair of anthropology at the University of Toronto, who has written a new book on the subject. Although not prepared to defend what she calls FGC, Janice Boddy defends women who undergo the operation and want the practice to continue in future generations. Janice Boddy- 2007 Gender Crusades: The Female Circumcision Controversy in Cultural Perspective.  In Transcultural Bodies: Female Genital Cutting in Global Context.

Kelly says:

05:33pm | 25/05/10

Wow, proud infidel you’ve well supported your argument there. You refer to one book written by a woman and “heated conversations with women who consider themselves to be left wing on the issue”. Brilliant! I know a guy who is an idiot and identifies as “right wing on issues” so all must be fools.

Can we pleave have a debate without the “wing” rot? For goodnessake, one who person writing a book doesn’t define the entire position of a ‘wing’. Nor does your dubious “debates with women”

Proud Infidel says:

06:59pm | 25/05/10

Kelly, Ouch! Please read the book.

Loz of Oz says:

05:26pm | 25/05/10

The difference is… in Australia we are a free and tolerant society. We don’t legislate culture. Or at least - that’s meant to be the idea. The meat pie and sauce is an Aussie cultural icon - we don’t force vegetarians to eat a meat pie though. People seem to forget that when something is legislated against or banned - that means people can be punished for it. Are you really ok with the prospect of a woman who is committing no offense, other than what she wears being punished whether by monetary (fine) or, even worse, arrested?  How can anyone in a free society be ok with that??

James1 says:

12:12pm | 25/05/10

Are you saying that in order to support freedom, we must curtail liberty?  It is you who is the communist, sir, as that is exactly what Lenin once said.

Dave says:

01:10pm | 25/05/10

Liberty does not mean “I can do what, whenever I want”. That’s the adolescent version. Liberty is a qualified right that has to be assessed against the social context in which it is operating.

Curtailing the influence of Islamist ideology is I think more important for the long term preservation of freedom, than the small inconvenience of forcing a tiny minority to do show respect to the community in which they live, particularly when you consider that in Australia they overwhelmingly live off centrelink.

Who pays the piper calls the tune, and we should expect a bit of civility in return for supporting them.

6c legs says:

03:09pm | 25/05/10

re “Dave”  and your 2nd comment:  i was pleasantly surprised at your eloquence, and wondered why you didn’t just say that in your first post?  However, where is the evidence that shows ‘that they overwhelmingly live off Centrelink’?

By just having a dig at Get Up, and not even mentioning the subject in your first post, other readers were left with no other option but to assume that you’re just as against Democracy, as you appear to be against Communism.

.

James1 says:

03:12pm | 25/05/10

So if they are not on benefits, you would support their right to wear a burka?

Dave says:

03:55pm | 25/05/10

James1, I think I have made the same mistake as the author of conflating two independent issues. Centrelink or hijab are independent of the burqa/niqab.

No, there are no independent study in Australia showing the relationship between the wearing a full face veil and unemployment.

However, one, most women wearing the full face veil live in low socio economic areas where jobs are scared, and two, showing your face is a basic requirement for 99% of jobs out there.

The bigger point is that these women are shunning society, whilst being supported by it. They should assume the full responsibility of their choice and support themselves independently.

James1 says:

06:46pm | 25/05/10

Dave, I repeat my question.  If society is not supporting them, and they or their families pay their way, do you support their right to dress as they see fit?

Dave says:

08:07pm | 25/05/10

No, for the reasons I have expressed earlier.

To summarize, rights come with responsibilities. we know the rights, so what are the responsibilities?

One, that an action does not cause harm to a social group.

Two, that an action is not cause harm to an individual.

Evidence to support one:

In 2008 the Islamic Women’s Welfare Council of Victoria conducted a report commissioned by the federal government on the status of Muslim women in Victoria and found that some imams hindered police from pursuing domestic violence charges, applied sharia law when it benefited men but not when it benefited women, and that polygamy was on the rise among Melbourne Muslims. Just like the issues identified in the report, the burqa is a by product of a cultural environment that is harmful to Muslim women as a social group.

Evidence to support two.

It is widely acknowledged that a few women are coerced into wearing the burqa. This is clearly a case of domestic psychological violence and it should be illegal. The usual response is that these women will be compelled to stay at home by their husbands and therefore enjoy even less freedom. That is not a strong argument and akin to saying that staying in an abusive relationship is better than leaving because of the risk of retaliation. The answer really should to punish the abusive husband, not the wife.

What are your evidence beyond your short sighted libertarian philosophy to support this medieval practice.

James1 says:

11:11am | 26/05/10

My response is this.  Your first evidence is undermined by the fact that you are talking about issues that will not be solved by banning the burka.  You have established a false equivalence between domestic violence and the burka, when in fact the two are separate issues.  Domestic violence is just as much of a problem in the Anglo community, and a far greater problem in the Aboriginal community, than it is in the Muslim community, and banning the burka will have no material effect in that area.

You second evidence, that it is widely acknowledged that some women are coerced into wearing the burka, is objectively true.  However, by banning the burka, it would in effect coerce all women into not wearing a particular type of clothing.  The domestic issues you identify need to be dealt with using mechanisms other than banning clothing, and you even identify that mechanism - punish (or coerce) the husband, not the wife.

Libertarianism is not short sighted - those who advocate the expansion of the nanny state into our bedrooms and wardrobes are short sighted.

Dave says:

12:24pm | 26/05/10

James1, in this country polygamy, religiously based discrimination by Imams, forced marriage, immoderate modesty are specific to the Muslim community .

You seem to be incapable to see the connection between the symbol and the misogynistic culture that created it, unless of course you think you can have one without the other, which is highly improbable.

As for libertarianism not being short sighted, just keep in mind that in the US people in the 60s opposing racial de-segratrion in schools used your same argument that the government has not business telling people what to do. It’s a convenient and seemingly commonsensical line to use when you want to maintain privileges and injustice.

boiling_frog says:

01:10am | 31/05/10

couldnt agree more. Well said.

stephen says:

12:25pm | 25/05/10

Stephenie, you sound [rest of this comment deleted. Take your offensive views elsewhere Stephen. Colgo]

James1 says:

01:11pm | 25/05/10

I repeat, Stephanie, those who would sacrifice liberty for security deserve neither.  There is something much higher at stake here than security, however you define the word.

While I share the views of many, that the wearing of the burka is perhaps not entirely desirable, we must use our values and democratic political culture to get people to stop wearing it, not the law.  We must persuade them, not coerce them.  If we start proscribing modes of dress we are little better in principle than Saudi Arabia.  And, you realise, there are planes leaving every single day, so if you do not like the liberty afforded by our political system, and would prefer tyranny and “security”, by all means leave.  I for one will stand for liberty.

Stephanie says:

02:06pm | 25/05/10

James1, that’s fine and yes you “shouldn’t” dictate what ppl can and cannot wear, however, you nor I are going to stop it from happening, after sept 11th everything changed, they’re changing every day and not just here, the rest of the world is way ahead of us in many ways.

However, this article does nothing to promote the debate regarding the “why” it started in the first place, its being taken into religious, feminist and other contexts in the hope of what? It just creates more division, more confusion and takes more steps back than forward.

I come from another country, I know what living under “laws” that are somewhat conservative means, however, that’s not what THIS article is debating. That’s why its irrelevant.

Oh, and good luck with the persuading…

adil says:

05:12am | 02/06/10

Stephanie, your society have lots of crimes. It doesn ot mean that anyone has to be nude to liv ein this society. How many crimes have been done in burka?? have you gotr any number except the one happened in NSW where one caucasian was involved. I think instead of being big mouth and telling about others dress, you should do something to reduce crime among your countrymen. Some of them might be willing to use burqa to do crime to demonise Islam and muslim women.

Hamish says:

02:32pm | 25/05/10

Well puzzled, because men can’t control their more salacious urges if women are uncovered. And because men are virtuous, women are therefore the enemies of this virture and must be covered and hidden at all costs for the sake of public morality.

...obviously the women don’t get anything out of it, but who cares about women?

PB says:

05:26pm | 30/05/10

Sheps, you are partly correct. There is nothing in the Quran that states that a female must wear a burqa. It is generally the wish of the brides husband as to whether or not she wares the burqa. Unfortunately some governments have bowed to pressure from Inman’s to require the burqa almost as a law.

The burqa is not required. However these women whether in a burqa or hijab generally have spent thousands of dollars on designer clothes only to cover them up. I am certain that the house of Dior, DKNY and others would be pleased to see their fabulous clothes being covered.

Whilst at it at a border security point, the female is generally taken into a separate room to remove the burqa to check that she is the same as depicted in the passport photo. So what is the security issue?

rahi says:

05:26am | 02/06/10

Brad Coward, which dream world are you living in?? There are lots of feminists in Pakistan, India, malysia and many other countries where women have more right than any western women. you will be surprised to find out that all these freedom that western women are enjoying comes from Koran. you people compare muslim traditions with Islam. Does not matter how much people try to demonise Islam , it will continue to grow faster as people would be more interested to find about Islam once they hear many controversies. In fact these controversies are helping Islam grow faster. the more people study about Islam the more they follow it. isnt it amazing??

XYZ says:

08:48pm | 02/06/10

Rahi, i’ll take the bait…

You say - “the more people study about Islam the more they follow it. isnt it amazing?? “

I say - In your dreams !!!

May says:

02:04pm | 25/05/10

Agreed.  And also ban men wearing kilts….it’s so un-Australian!!

Jo says:

03:59pm | 25/05/10

I agree.. I always thought I lived in a free country.
This debate is just plain scary!  Not many people actually are seeing that though.

Alosia says:

04:49pm | 25/05/10

Jo I can understand your corncern and its not the dress that worries me it’s more an issue of security. I have seen outlandish western dress but the face is uncovered, even though in my opinion some of the wearers don’t have a mirror

zoe says:

01:30pm | 25/05/10

It was definitely present in Indonesia when I was there 10 years ago and from what I understand from friends over there becoming more common, probably not so much in Bali but definitely some of the more extremist areas.

Dhammachick says:

01:45pm | 25/05/10

Best reply on here all day. Radhib is totally spot on. It’s a CULTURAL thing, not an Islamic code.  More people need to understand that.

Greek Snake says:

02:31pm | 25/05/10

You are right Dhammachick, cultural. But it is “their” culture which does not blend with “our” culture. Why is it, when we visit Islamic countries we must forget our culture for the time being, forget bikinis, hand holding, kissing in public and provocative clothing, but when anyone comes here they can feel free to BYO whatever they please? Why is it that the lefties rush to defend this no matter what the impact on our social freedoms in the long run?

You are right, it is cultural, but a culture that is not of our own. Furthermore, a culture that is detrimental to our society and our freedoms. For these reasons, full face coverings are unwelcome here.

James1 says:

04:02pm | 25/05/10

Green Snake - there is a very obvious answer to your first question.  When we visit (some) Islamic countries, we must do these things because we are visiting a non-democratic authoritarian theocracy.  Last time I checked, we are a Western liberal democracy.  Why do so many (so-called) conservatives keep overlooking this point?  Are they really conservatives?  How does a person covering their face impact on your freedom?  Wouldn’t liberty be far more affected by a blanket ban on a particular type of clothing, than by a tiny minority covering their face?  I would argue that it would, because regardless of our choice to cover our faces, such a ban would affect everyone in principle.  Am I the only conservative that feels this way about our political culture?

Patrick says:

10:48pm | 25/05/10

James1, you’re just the only person on here who isn’t scared stiff of Muslims.

BTS says:

05:08pm | 26/05/10

I have lived in a Muslim country.  Until your educated about the other side of the fence you really don’t know.

Put me down for not scared.

Markus says:

02:04pm | 25/05/10

Make us understand! Hysteria from both sides aside, would you be able to answer something for me that no-one has been able to yet (Sara has overlooked as well):
What religious significance does the burqa have to muslim culture that is unable to be expressed by wearing a hijab?
Even in this article Sara’s examples all reference about the hijab despite the argument being about the full-body burqa.
I would appreciate an honest response.

Stefan says:

12:25pm | 26/05/10

Cause you’re brainwashed? Please dont try and make a stupid, backward pratice something that only you can understand.

Dave says:

01:14pm | 25/05/10

“Muslims never objected to others dressings..”
Adil, clearly, you have not travelled to the middle east and Saudi Arabia in particular.

GeekGal says:

01:42pm | 25/05/10

Really adil? Is that why my best friend transferred to another Life Saving club from Cronulla because she had Muslim men and women abuse her for being “immoral” while dressed in a full piece swimming costume on duty? They then went on to abuse the hell out of two girls lying on the beach in a bikini minding their own business?

I don’t care who you are, which Deity you believe in (or lack of one), or where you were born, but when you come to Australia, you obey the law of the land - namely here to refrain from abusing innocent people.

Adam says:

02:38pm | 25/05/10

That is hilarious: “Islam is the most tolerant religion in the world.” Why not go and educate yourself about life in Afghanistan mate.

marley says:

02:55pm | 25/05/10

Tell that to the Swiss diplomat jogging in Islamabad a few years ago.  He was wearing shorts. Someone took offense and shot him.

James1 says:

02:58pm | 25/05/10

The men you speak of are no better than a pair I saw recently in Belconnen harassing a niqab-wearing woman, GeekGal.  What is your point, exactly?  What bearing does that have on a person’s right to wear a burka?

Peter says:

05:17pm | 25/05/10

@ Adam. Muslims believe that if Christians and Jews followed their own teachings, their would be a place in heaven for them as well.. Sounds pretty tolorant to me. I don’t think we should be confusing crimes people commit to an entire religion.

James1 says:

01:19pm | 25/05/10

So in order to prevent people controlling women, we should implement laws which control the way women dress.  Makes perfect sense.

To me, the argument that says “they do it in religious theocracies” is a perfect reason not to do the same here.  Furthermore, you show very little respect for my culture - one based on liberal democracy - so perhaps it is people like you who is the problem.

Anna C says:

01:34pm | 25/05/10

Totally agree with you that the burqua looks horrible.  Just last week I saw a young muslim couple at my local shopping centre.  He was wearing the latest sports wear/Nike clothes while his wife was all covered up from head to toe and looked like an old women.  How is this fair?  Why don’t these muslim men cover up as well?  This image is becoming increasingly common where I live and I’m not happy about it.  I am opposed to the Islamisfication of Australia.

Jen says:

02:35pm | 25/05/10

I agree. I have no problem with the hijab, but the burka is a problem because you should be able to identify people somehow, you need to see their faces. It’s a basic communication thing, and a security thing.

Luke says:

07:53pm | 26/05/10

I think its the “pride” in ones religion is whats annoying these people…
They dont understand it…
For “religion” to them is that annoying thing they had to learn at school… nothing “enlightening” or even to be “proud” of…
Honestly… i dont think its a security is the thing thats making this topic so popular…

Nic says:

02:14pm | 25/05/10

This is the best response I have read. Got me laughing Well done! and HOW TRUE!!!!!

6c legs says:

03:40pm | 25/05/10

(damn. wish i’d posted that!)

Peter says:

03:26pm | 26/05/10

@ Jayne, which world wide atrocities do you refer to? And they are worse than Christian atrocities because??

Re brainwashing, you could easily claim that revealing western clothes that young girls is also brainwashing..

Luke says:

07:48pm | 26/05/10

Is the “stupidity” of the burqa acceptable to you or not?? Thats the REAL question… You havent answered that… you’ve just said religion isnt a good thing… wow… join the club of many internet spammers…
Have you considered that YOU have been brainwashed by the “anti-religion” of the western world?
You speak so much like the priests of yesteryear… only in the idiocy of “anti-religion” not the idiocy of “religion”....

Your name: Shane says:

03:04pm | 25/05/10

Australia is not a Muslim country it is also not a Christian country either compare apples with apples.

MenarefromMars says:

04:10pm | 25/05/10

Your name: Shane: Why is it that parliament sittings always start with the Lord’s prayer?

Are you sure about your statement?

Andrew says:

05:14pm | 25/05/10

Do you mean pole dancers or are you actually suggesting they may be women who danced whilst asking people about their political opinion? Maybe you should float the idea with the guys down at Gallop.

Peter says:

11:29am | 26/05/10

You know exactly what im saying Andrew. If every muslim woman came here to be prostitutes, we wouldn’t even be talking about them.

6c legs says:

12:35pm | 26/05/10

“Peter” re your latest comment at 10.29am -26th may.

Mate, among the dozens of incredibly stoopid comments made on this subject, your latest one about ’ Muslim women comming here to be prossies’, is right up there!
you could ‘podium’ at the Olympics for Stoopid Statements with that one. LOL!

Peter says:

02:53pm | 26/05/10

@ 6c. Have the bigots been as loud as they have on the burqua on Asian ladies apparantly being kept against their will in brothels throughout Australia? You can call it stupid, but i don’t see the same outrage.. Get it?

Eve says:

02:17pm | 25/05/10

Yeah, all Australians are drug taking rooters! What a stupid comment. Australia has its problems, but is also one of the most ethnically diverse states in the world. The article here is dealing with the burqa, a confronting fringe element of islam. Probably a better tack to deal with that rather than play offensive victimhood, wouldn’t you think?

Jeff M says:

02:17pm | 25/05/10

Adam, It does not make any difference to me if someone is of Muslim faith, or Christian or Buddist or any of the other faiths we have here. I am agnostic, I don’t believe in any of it but the other religions are not a security risk. Their faces are all visible. If you want to live happily in this country, why would you do something that offends so many people such as wearing a veil? It’s a small thing just to remove it when you are going into banks and airports ect. If there is an issue with Muslims its probably based on fear, we all saw what happened in New York and Bali and many many other counties. Australians have not committed crimes against anyone in that manner and its up to Muslims to prove that the Muslims in Australia are fairdinkum, its not up to us.

Fredrick James says:

02:55pm | 25/05/10

Removing the burqa whilst in banks and airports ect seem to me to not but such a big deal. After the events of 9/11 and Bali and the other terrorist attacks around the world by Muslims, you would think you would be running to help the country who took you in by removing those veils. I doubt most Aussies would really care what you do in the privacy of your own home. Don’t equate “going to a brothel or picking up chicks” with terrorist acts, it just doesn’t wash

rellie says:

04:54pm | 25/05/10

Adam,
it is laughable that you as an Australian would denigrate other Australians instead of wanting to promote a cohesive society. It is insulting that you would label all Australians as pub crawling, brothel wasters.

The typical ‘aussie’ does not want to acquaint themselves with Islam.
They are not interested. How about you acquaint yourself with some Australians as you obviously have no idea about the country you live in.

Andrew says:

05:18pm | 25/05/10

Ok Adam I’ll be honest. I would prefer limited if any Muslim immigration to Australia and frankly the attitude you displayed in your post is the reason why.

Chris says:

10:56am | 29/05/10

@Adam, it was Australians and the the Aussie culture that built this fantastic country that you have have decided to make your home. Why is it so many people want to come here? Answer - it is because of Aussies. It is the people that make a country great. I can’t think of too many Muslim Countries that are considered great and where Aussies would want to live but it seems that many, many Muslims want come to Australia.  Unfortunatley, they then want to try and install the belief’s, laws and systems that have made the countries they have come from such crapholes.  If you want to come here and be Aussie, that is great. If not, and you want to whinge about it being so racist and unfair, go back to where you came from.

Peter says:

02:22pm | 25/05/10

I haven’t seen a bank robber, plane hijacker, convenience store robber wear a burqua.. Ive only ever seen these people wearing western style type clothing…

Karen x says:

03:35pm | 25/05/10

Peter it has already happened here. you might want to read this since you obviously do not buy newspaers or have tv

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/burqa-bandit-in-armed-cash-grab-20100506-ub1r.html

Peter says:

04:46pm | 25/05/10

@ Karen, ok might have happened once, so what do you want, take away everybodies freedoms.. I have copy and pasted the excerpt of the article. The description of the burqua gets quite westernised towards the end and I suppose the sunglasses might have been a bit unusual..

““There, he was approached by a man wearing a full black burqa - traditionally only worn by some Islamic women - and sunglasses and told to hand over the cash, police said today in a statement.

Police are now searching for two men who might be able to assist their inquires.

The men are aged about 20 to 25, of Mediterranean or Middle Eastern appearance and about 170 centimetres tall.

One was wearing a white cap, blue T-shirt and blue faded jeans and the other was unshaven and wearing a blue cap, a grey T-shirt with black writing on it, blue jeans and dark coloured sunglasses.””

Hamish says:

02:40pm | 25/05/10

Trev,

I said I disagreed with a ban. I actually said it would be oppressive to ban the Burqa.

My point was that the Burqa is a cultural phenomenon which is fundamentally about control over women. Whether women choose to wear it is irrelevant. In fact, I pity the ones who choose to wear it more than the ones who are forced.

Trev says:

02:28pm | 25/05/10

Glen,

Can you show me a religion that doesn’t treat women as second class?

Pete says:

02:10pm | 25/05/10

Good point. Hijab is not a burqa. If you want to have this discussion properly (and mount a defence of the hijab) then it should be distinguished from the burqa, and we should hear some true defences or rejections of the burqa. The burqa seems a particularly medieval piece of attire, and I question its relevance to society, and its affect on the wearer. You cannot enjoy all the benefits of citizenship shut away like that, surely.

Peter says:

02:36pm | 25/05/10

No worries JR. Since pretty much every crime in Australia has been committed by someone wearing western clothing, i take it you’d want the business owner to have the right to ask you to take off your jeans?

JR says:

04:37pm | 25/05/10

You’re obviously being facetious. But I would agree if they were being worn on the persons head disguising them. So if you owned a business you would have no worries someone cruising around in a balaklava then? As long as they say it’s part of their culture or religion. Who would you be to tell them they can’t wear it?

Peter says:

09:25pm | 25/05/10

@JR, i agree there should be some give and take with the burqua but i strenously oppose to legislating against clothes. In a bank, yes temporarily remove the face mask, in an airport and perhaps a convenience store after dark. But i don’t like the idea of banning something somebody wants to wear..

JR says:

10:01am | 26/05/10

Then we agree.

Mistress D says:

12:22pm | 26/05/10

To be fair….If everyone who went into a shop had to take off their pants and hand them over as ‘security’ they might be less likely to rob it. I mean, how can anyone take you seriously when you’re standing there in your dacks?

DG says:

05:57pm | 25/05/10

“not all women who wear the the burqa are forced to”

then, a few lines later:

“... you have no choice in the matter”

Which is it?

if you wish to prohibit forcing a person to wear a specific thing then I agree, forcing a Muslim woman to wear the veil under threat of law, is no different to forcing the Jews to wear identifying clothing or marks in times gone by.

That is very different to prohibiting a person from choosing to wear something.

The former is oppressive towards women, the latter is, in my opinion, not. The thing is not oppressive in and of itself, however the manner in which is it used that may be oppressive.

Voter says:

05:16pm | 25/05/10

Nice Islamic apologist text.
Let me answer your dilemma ” what is, and is not, Australian, and who gets to decide that”. We do. We, as in Australians. We are a democracy, which means ruled by the will of the people, and on the current standings Australians in excess of 80% oppose burqa. Since this is the will of the people the democratically elected government of the day, which is supposed to represent the electorate should ban the burqa (NOW). However our spineless PM K. Rudd and his leftist friends ignore the will of the electorate and rather listen to the very vocal, threatening chant of extremely small fundamentalist Islamic groups, which in total represent less than 0.5% of population.

Zaf says:

11:52am | 26/05/10

Peace, Voter.  I’m not an Islamist apologist because I question your assumption of privilege.

DG says:

12:52pm | 26/05/10

Voter:

“Since this is the will of the people the democratically elected government of the day, which is supposed to represent the electorate should ban the burqa (NOW). “

This shows a complete lack of understanding of the way that a representative democracy, such as the one that we have in Australia, actually works. We vote for the politician that has the policies that we like. The politicians are under no obligation, whatsoever, to do anything even the things that they have promised to do. That’s why we have “broken promises” every election cycle.

Basically politicians offer a whole bag of promises to a lot of potential voters. the politicians winn the election on those promises, keep a couple, and then hope that people forget about the rest.

After all what do you think is a bigger issue for the majority of voters? The attire of a small number of women or the quality of education/transport/roads/policing/housing in the State?

Luke says:

05:02pm | 31/05/10

“Australians in excess of 80% oppose burqa”
nice scare tactics man
Where did you get that?

Loz of Oz says:

05:48pm | 25/05/10

Please enlighten me… how is banning the burqa in France protecting freedom of choice? I don’t see the correlation. Removing women’s choice to protect freedom of choice makes as much sense as censorship to protect freedom of speech. The two just don’t go together.

Further - removing the choice of women to wear the hijab or burqa does limit their ability to intergrate with society. If a woman has decided not to show her hair or face to the general public whether it be for religious reasons, cultural reasons or just because the sky is blue not green - whatever - ultimately that women is more likely to not interact with others at all.

scarlet says:

04:37pm | 25/05/10

I agree. This turns them into emotionless, androgynous automatons.

Dan who isn't a racist says:

12:11am | 29/05/10

Speak for yourself. Most people I know don’t have any ill feeling towards the hijab or burqa. As for it being an ‘in your face religion”, are you saying that it’s in your face because they don’t hide the fact they are Muslim?

‘If muslim women want to wear them, they can, but they shouldn’t expect to be considered as real Australians by the rest of us”

You disgusting fool! Who are you to declare whether ANYONE is a real Australian! And what makes a real Australian in your book? Is it someone who is racist? Someone who is intolerant? Like you?

Well, guess what, I think that ‘real’ Australians are tolerant, and you are not a real Australian at all!

“only an ethnic minority of religous fanatics, but that is probably the idea.”  Have you ever met a Muslim? You may or may not be religious, but you are an absolute extremist. Perhaps you should join the KKK. You would be perfect for them!

the-stinger says:

03:26pm | 25/05/10

The same way we demanded the Aboriginies to assimilate? Be careful what you state, when you preach ignorance and hypocisy.

ccc says:

04:34pm | 25/05/10

Re the-stinger

RUBBISH.

I did not demand anything form Aborigines and find it completely ridiculous to use such an argument. I am not responsible for the actions of others 100 years ago and won’t fall for some politically correct guilt trip claptrap.

Immigration has been used NOT to assimilate migrants as Australians , but to cause division amongst racial and ethnic lines while seeking to elevate devotion to foreign ideologies and traditions, while at the same time denigrating Australian culture and societal values.

DG says:

03:48pm | 25/05/10

“she is making that decision based on a flawed/sexist premise.”

That argument could be made about anything done in the name of religion: there goes marriage, baptism, male genital mutilation, confirmation, Bar mitzvah, the kippah, the crucifix, Easter, Christmas, Ramadan - and so on, all of which are based on the flawed premise that one god or another exists (I say flawed because there is no evidence for the basis of that premise, and it is clear that these premises are mutually exclusive and as such can not all be valid). 

the we get to the long standing, and unchallenged ongoing gender differences such as:  Why is it acceptable for a male’s nipples to be exposed at a beach, but not a woman’s? Why is a man “required” to wear a suit while a woman has a range of socially acceptable options available (including short sleeves or attire that leaves the legs exposed)?

People make decisions based on flawed premises every single day, and I would reject any suggestion that a person should be prohibited from doing so. By all means increase education, but keep in mind that you may be basing your life on flawed premises as well.

Loz of Oz says:

06:03pm | 25/05/10

Woza, it doesn’t matter what premise someone makes a choice based on. That’s the beauty of choice. Libertarians don’t care why someone chooses to believe or do something… just that they have the right to think or do so in the first place.

notsurprised says:

05:49pm | 25/05/10

“We in Australia, should not be forcing assimilation onto those who enter our shores, and we certainly should not be punishing them by our actions, words or thoughts because of their choice.” Modern Australian governance does not force assimilation. Assimilation is an agreement assigned to all who migrate here and those who were born here are also expected to accept Australian custom and law no matter what generation you were born into. This information can be found at the website for the Department of Immigration and Citizenship section entitled ‘Living in Australia’.

6c legs says:

01:12pm | 26/05/10

Yes. I’m tired of the obfuscation used by clerics and “muslim feminists” (like someone else posted; surely an oxymoron?) in the ‘ban the burka’ argument.
However, i am slowly comming to the conclusion that even the educated Muslims only know how to debate by using ‘hand grenade’ tactics, and they are doing nothing to advance their cause.

Peter says:

05:47pm | 26/05/10

Was the former muslim female PM of pakistan an oxymoron? Even Pakistan has had a female prime minister before Australia… Julie Bishop for PM anyone?

Kirstie says:

04:20pm | 25/05/10

I agree with you 100 percent. The full face covering is a clear sign of oppression, it makes women invisible, effectively removing them from society. Would you let someone teach your children who wears a burqa, for example? I would not, because facial expression is an integral part of communication. The teacher wearing a burqa could be replaced with a recording reciting the lessons, the result would be the same. People who wear the burqa, willingly or not, will never be able to become full participating members of Western societies.

Kafir says:

05:00pm | 25/05/10

Sydney Girl, I feel like giving you a huge hug. Well presented view!

BTS says:

06:32pm | 25/05/10

So if they want to wear it, genuinely want to wear it, you would oppose her right to do so?

How you feel about it, may not be how they feel about it.  Does their feelings and beliefs matter at all?

Richie says:

06:01pm | 25/05/10

KRudd has also said he would turn the boats around. Does anyone actually believe Rudd’s statements now? If you do, you truly are gullible.

woman says:

04:40pm | 25/05/10

OMG!!! please don’t bring it to our country?? oh am sorry!! by far one of the most ignorant sentences I’ve heard… who says this… in the every growing face of globalization and multiculturalism where… the clothes you wear and majority fashion comes from cheap labor countries like China that provides you with with the facilities.. what are you talking about? A country of the aboriginals that was taken over by the British forced to accept a culture which was civilized only to them. After reading such articles as this one which should make people re-consider this is just shameful.

6c legs says:

05:11pm | 25/05/10

“Robert” , gee, your post was going so well - and then it turned into a frantic Gay bashing rant!  whoa, where did that come from?

amongst your rantings you mentioned ‘feminist being bigotted’ - mate, your post is the very definition of bigotted!

going by your bizarre logic,  all the “strong, independant, determined women”  in your life are most probably Gay themselves, fearing losing your ‘love’ should they come out???
*sigh*... and no, i’m not a “lesbos-feminist”, just a boring old hetro one)

Bee says:

05:21pm | 25/05/10

Robert, that’s called a “straw man argument”, and a finer example I’ve rarely seen

Robert S McCormick says:

08:25am | 26/05/10

Gay bashing? Certainly not! The women in my life, like most of us, like to be liked or loved, but they do not seek my or any one else’s love. All of them are very secure in their sexuality and open about it. Some are gay some are not. I don’t care one way or another and yes, the gay one’s also are sick and tired of feminists telling them and everyone else how they should lead their lives, what attitudes they should have towards men and those women who choose to be part of the world the feminists so loathe: Home-makers who do a damn good job running their homes and being there for their children.

James1 says:

04:14pm | 25/05/10

Your solution to Muslims demanding that Christian crosses be removed from soccer jerseys is to place similar demands upon Muslims, except in this case you are not talking about a sign on a jersey, but the banning of an entire mode of dress in a nation-state?  You are a hypocrite, sir.  Like you say, pot, meet kettle…

Nitzpicker says:

06:58pm | 25/05/10

@James1.  i dont think you understand what the word means. Its ok for Muslims to wear whatever religious clothing they want, anywhere they want, Its ok they demand that when visiting a Muslim country we wear clothing in line with their beliefs,  its ok for them to demand that soccer teams cant wear a cross on a simple soccer team jersey because they find it offensive?? and *IM* the hypocrite? You are crazy.

James1 says:

06:23pm | 31/05/10

I do not say that those demands are okay - indeed, I have openly criticised it in the post to which you respond.  What is hypocritical is that you oppose the Muslims making those demands, while making a similar demand of the Muslims.  So which is it?  Is it okay to demand that signs resembling crosses be removed from jerseys?  If not, then it is also not okay to demand that women dress according to your own personal standards.  To say that both are okay is hypocritical.

James1 says:

04:15pm | 25/05/10

If you had read the article, you would know that she lived in Iran for two years.  Also, Iran is not an Arab country - try telling an Iranian they are an Arab…

Zaf says:

04:35pm | 25/05/10

banning the burqa=women’s emancipation is cargo cult silliness.  Iow, that does not follow. ??

MenarefromMars says:

04:39pm | 25/05/10

James1:
Arab as in Middle Eastern. Iranians like to consider themselves as Persian but the reference to Arab can be understood to be Middle Eastern.

You are being pedantic.

Peter says:

05:27pm | 25/05/10

A law that bans something we choose to wear that helps our freedom.. Interesting take…

EarthMuse says:

05:36pm | 25/05/10

Actually, if you bothered to talk to women in Australia who choose to wear the burqa you would find out that it does in fact have a place in our ‘modern society’. This so-called modern society permits and even promotes such habits as staring at women in public, cat-calling, and other behaviour which some women may not want to be subjected to. I do understand that it may be that a woman in a burqa is stared at even more, simply because she is dressed differently, however it is not so likely that she is the subject of unwanted attention of a sexually motivated nature. In any case, what it comes down to is choice. What is the difference between choosing to wear a burqa or choosing to wear a mini-skirt? Historically there have been laws requiring women to ‘cover up’ which have over time been viewed as repressive and then repealed, but in no case has there been a law made (until now) that made it illegal for a woman to cover up as much of her body as she chooses. If what offends is that it is related to religious culturer, then will we also ban nun’s habits, clerical vestments/robes, Jewish men’s skullcaps (yarmulke), Hindu religious garments etc?

Just as a final note to any christians out there… are you aware of your own religious history and the fact that there are still Christian sects in which women believe in covering their head.  From the bible 1 Corinthians 11:5,  “Every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved.”

James1 says:

06:39pm | 25/05/10

I like to call it accurate, MenarefromMars.  Without factual accuracy, how can anything a person argues be relied upon?

Gina B says:

07:55pm | 25/05/10

No thank you SlayerRocks this Australian woman chooses not to learn about oppression. Nuns keep their faces uncovered and so do priests. I am not Catholic but these men and women look their fellow Australian’s firmly in the eye. It is not us giving Muslim women no respect, Muslim men need to look at themselves its their lack of respect that forces these women to dress so unattractively and uncomfortably. Australian women have freedom to dress as they want and I am proudly Australian

ryan says:

05:05pm | 29/05/10

What an utterly ridiculous comment.
Women are NOt discriminated against in australia.  Yes, of course their husband’s signature must accompany theirs if they have JOINT bank accounts or financial responsibilities.  To do otherwise would be ridiculous.

Your attitudes are outdated and have no place in a modern country, in our modern society.

It is not the religious overtones of the attire which is the issue, but the covering of the face which instantly dehumanises the wearer.  Not only is it essential that this oppressive attire be made illegal, int he interests of creating a cohesive and multicultral society, but so that women are not just treated as possessions, to be owned by one man only.

Funnily, there is no call in the qu’aran to wear such attire, and is an enforced possessive behaviour by insanely jealous men.

Kafir says:

06:15pm | 25/05/10

Dear Mimi, welcome to humanism and atheism. Oh, and your message almost sounds like “Imagine” by John Lennon:
“Imagine there’s no countries
It isn’t hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace…”

But this will not happen while burqa clad women and sword (or gun) yielding men are telling us how we should live our lives.

Richie says:

06:26pm | 25/05/10

Don’t be ridiculous, why would a Western women move to a country where clothes are forbidden? That would be a clear reason for not moving there unless you were happy about being naked. And btw, tell me a country where clothes are forbidden?
I quote your comment “And why target innocent muslim women, when they are NOT the ones committing heinous acts?” - there have been numerous suicide bombings by Muslim women dressed with the burqa.

Miss Anthropist says:

08:49am | 26/05/10

Richie:  I only used the example of a country where clothes are forbidden in order to illustrate how a muslim woman might feel.  I did not suggest that such a country might exist.  As to why muslim women move to countries with different social norms to their own - have you considered that they haven’t all chosen to do so?

How many occasions have there been involving women suicide bombers in Western countries?  They are clearly a VERY small minority, and the burqa was certainly not the culprit!

Nelson L Stool says:

11:51am | 26/05/10

The question then is how do we know if a woman wheres the burqa by choice?  If we accept that certain woman choose to wear it then the question is why? My readings indicate it came about from an interpretation on how to adhere to the Korans requirement to dress modestly so as not to provide temptation. Surely dessing like a letterbox to preserve a womans modesty can be described as overkill? Should I as a man feel affronted by a woman who dresses this way because she feels that I am some kind of animal with no self control? What of the men who approve of such dress, what possible opinion can they have of the average western woman on a summers day, do they respect such a woman? Extremism in anything is rarely good and in religion it is always bad, the burqa is a sign of Islamic extremism and woman should be freed of it even if they don’t recognise the need.

Bee says:

06:24pm | 25/05/10

I’ll say it again, as you seem to have missed the point. The objection to the burka is not that it is a religious symbol. The objection rests in what it signifies as a symbol of oppression of women; and because it hides the identity of the wearer. That’s why no-one’s complaining about hijab, turbans, monk’s robes, nun’s veils, pagan oak-leaf wreaths etc.

SmithPbuh says:

07:04pm | 25/05/10

Mano, nuns and priest’s clothing and crosses do not cover faces <- to state the obvious just in case you did not know. The majority of Australians do not reject burqa on religious grounds but on civil ones such as equality, security, safety, distrust, inability to integrate with Australian population at large.

why the fuss says:

02:04pm | 26/05/10

Nuns don’t hide their face though.  I would never ban the burqua but I think the problem most people have with it is that it hides someone’s face.  In our western culture the face is all important - when people hide it we regard it as creepy or weird.  That’s the culture we live in - if you don’t like it then live somewhere else.

Robert S McCormick says:

12:50pm | 26/05/10

The silly part of all this is that rather than enhancing modesty and ensuring only their husbands can see their real beauty some of these garments actually accentuate the enormous beauty many of these women. It’s none of our business. We don’t condemn women who wear ultra short skirts, shorts and upper garments which, unfortunately in many cases, leave nothing to the imagination! So why not “Live & Let Live”? Yes there have been men who have donned this female attire and have committed crimes doing so BUT…like so many people coming from other cultures/religions & lands, though they maintain, as is their right, their cultural & religious heritage they appear to very quickly adapt to the rather easy-going & friendliness for which Australia is, thankfully, renowned. Just as we should be allowed to think & say what we really believe so, too, should everyone be allowed to wear whatever type of clothing they want. Many have come here to escape the violence of their own lands. Let OUR people live free.

Jacki Colins says:

10:03pm | 25/05/10

The burqa in Australia is like to have a Polar Bear in Australia,you can keep it only under special condition like the ZOO.
So I don’t mind if they do it at home or their private clubs.
Even we can’t do everything we like to do in public.We have to follow and obey the law and culture of Australia.

Andrew says:

09:25pm | 25/05/10

Well thought out, well written and obviously from someone with first hand knowledge. Thank you for taking the time.

Bee says:

07:49pm | 25/05/10

False analogy

BTS says:

06:48am | 26/05/10

Based on what?

L O L says:

01:34am | 26/05/10

I’m sure the muslims were preaching and harmin u weren’t they.  And for ur comment, “don’t come here preaching”, Come where sorry.  I guess u must b of an aboriginal background with all that ownership of Australia nonsense.  Think before u speak and understand the difference we all have made to the aboriginals who owned the land before us all.  Don’t b a hypocrite!!!! We r all individuals and should b able to express what ever we like on the outside.  Australia is a free country, and the laws were made for all and that is y we r all here.  If u don’t like it maybe u should leave seeing that u r an outsider as well.  And for ur comment on Islamic countries, Y would someone want to go to an islamic country where there are strict islamic laws and wear a bikini anyway, so irrelevant.  I went to Dubai for a holiday and swam in a bikini, it is full of tourist.  There r certain areas with signs asking everyone to dress modestly in certain areas which i didn’t feel was disrespectful in any way.. So please Stop taking desperate measures to support ur argument.  It’s Pathetic.  U live in Australia which is full of different cultures and religons.  Wake up and accept it.

Jasmine says:

10:52pm | 28/05/10

L O L your grammar errors frighten me, I suggest you enrol some English classes asap

SmithPbuh says:

07:19pm | 25/05/10

Thank you Siavash. Finally some honest truth not wishy washy extremism compliant text.

Jules says:

07:35pm | 25/05/10

That’s what I thought.  Sara’s very biased one sided and generalised article is simply just that…her opinion and I very much think it lacked credibility…(emotionally charged trying to defend her rights to her beliefs really more than anything else hidden in the context of burqa wearing)  What’s more disgusting is all the apologists and people for the burqa wearing based on the code of freedom of choice….which is absolutely and utterly ridiculous considering it’s a code of religion that is at it’s most fundamental state a totalarian (spelling?) regime (a religion that has infiltrated every way of life).

BTS says:

06:55am | 26/05/10

Norm,

Arrested for what?

Banks have the right to ask you to leave, as does any store, if you don’t comply with their conditions.  It’s their choice to serve, it’s your choice as to what you wear.

averill says:

10:26pm | 25/05/10

LOL! wouldn’t you just like to see that !!! Well said Kathryn.

Mark says:

09:23pm | 25/05/10

Actually Logan, short skirts DID belong in Iran, before the Islamic Revolution. In fact they were worn with complete freedom. Then radical Muslims decided that they would use extreme violence to ensure everyone, even those who did not believe what they did, conformed to their beliefs.

BTW Sara, your opening paragraph draws a very long bow in terms of logic. Your parallel is that people who don’t want their kids outside too often for fear of sunburn should not then criticise kids who spend too long indoors? What? Can you not understand there is a fair way in between that is acceptable and that also applies to what people wear?

Mil says:

10:22pm | 25/05/10

Rudolf, and a few others, the thing that makes Oz so much better than Iran etc is that people can choose to wear what they like.

Anything goes here, not much over there. simple really. You live here, not there, enjoy it.

why is this even a point of discussion? Free country = choice

And to those hating on the Burqa ban, I think you should make more noise about the internet filter….

TimD says:

09:07am | 26/05/10

Well said, mate.
Religion, after all, is just an ancient man made fantasy. Down through history, since its invention, religion has probably caused more human suffering than any plague has.
I say Australia should lead the way and ban ALL religions.

Kirstie says:

03:42am | 26/05/10

Yes, Luke, Yemen is such an incredible and fantastic place! A very kind society! Some links for everyone to read:

Yemeni cleric calls for killing US civilians
http://apnews.excite.com/article/20100523/D9FSP6S80.html
     
US Embassy Bombing Leaves 10 Dead In Yemen
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/09/17/us-embassy-bombing-leaves_n_127055.html

Three German Children Kidnapped in Yemen on Recent Video
http://politifi.com/news/Three-German-Children-Kidnapped-in-Yemen-on-Recent-Video-85178.html

And it was a few minutes on Google, with plenty more horror news stories from Yemen related to terrorism to choose from. But absolutely, Luke, Australia should be more like Yemen! How wonderful would that be?

“Australians need to open their eyes to the world.” Absolutely. But Yemen is hardly a good example to follow!

P.S.: Sorry for the sarcastic tone of my post, maybe it’ll help getting my point across more effectively.

NESLIHAN KUROSAWA says:

08:48am | 26/05/10

Hi Luke F I found your comment very well thought out and educated.  It just goes to show that travel does broaden your horizons. I actually come from the Islamic background and I also feel that you feel safer in an Islamic society as a woman. Petty crime as we know it does not even exist in most Islamic Nations., whether you believe it or not. Even though you may believe that to a certain extent that those women are forced to wear the burqa and the hijab, it may be only in case of very young girls living overseas who may be forced to wear the hijab because of cultural differences . I am a qualified interpreter and I happen to have friends from all over the world including the Middle Eastern countries, like Iran, Lebanon and Dubai. Unlike me, they do tend to wear the hijab not the burqa. On the contrary to what you may think they are all very well educated and intelligent. Yes, as long as we preach freedom of speech and religion, we have to be willing to be tolerant , accepting,  and most importantly respectful of other cultures and beliefs.  I just want to also make a point that well before all this, how come there was so much interest in places like Be?rut.,  Morroco, Tunisia and Egypt? They were magical places to visit once upon a time mainly by the French and the English. There was so much mystery and culture in those far away places.  They have always been muslim countries. Our world is an amazing place given the chance to travel and see it for yourselves. All the best to you and your families.

BTS says:

07:03am | 26/05/10

Lin,

How is it that you know what Sara’s real life experience is and is not?

From that article:

‘But it is implicit within well educated Islamic circles that head coverings on women are a cultural, and or personal choice, not necessarily a religious one except during prayer.’

Thanks fof backing up Sara’s position.

Lin says:

08:44pm | 26/05/10

BTS,

1. According to what’s available on this site, Sara’s life experience is of a 22 year old girl with privileges of living in a western society and a 2 year experience in an oppressive Muslim country where she didn’t like being forced to wear a veil. This is unlike Jacqueline Pascarl (the writer of the above mentioned article and a mother to a 26 year old) who was instructed into Islam for 4 years and who “spent much of her professional life working with, and for Muslim people in the war zones of Bosnia Herzogovina, Kosovo and Albania as an humanitarian relief worker, and traveled and worked extensively in the Middle East, Europe, Africa and Asia”. That much for real life experience comparison.

2. The paragraph you quote is the only one you could have chosen from that article without shooting yourself in the foot. You don’t mention other parts of this article, such as just before the paragraph quoted by you:

“I have heard it argued by a young Muslim teenager that a hijab or a burqa denotes a female as a “girl or woman of dignity”. My gentle reply was that demeanour and deeds denote dignity, not a piece of fabric.  The Koran mentions modesty, but does not describe a burqa or a hijab.
Which brings me to another point, it is most often the strictures imposed by the fathers and husbands within the Islamic communities that lead women to take up the hijab or the burqa.  The social pressure on the males, their fear of perceptions within male circles, leads to the demand that their female relatives cloak themselves in what they perceive to be the trappings of honour to ensure, and demonstrate their trustworthiness and prove a lack of feminine sexual sophistication. In other words, the worth of a man is valued in how they control their womenfolk. Frankly, it’s a rather akin to preserving the wrappings on valuable goods before they’re purchased.”

and more

“I learnt that the primary reason women are required by Islamic societies (the majority of which are patriarchal) to swathe themselves in fabrics and cover their collar bones, necks, arms, legs, ankles, calves, chests, elbows, shoulders, throats, thighs, ears, napes of necks, hair and in some cases, faces, is that women are culturally condemned to the roll of seductress and are considered untrustworthy, immoral humans, driven to tempt men and bring down the bastions of male self-control. The fine shape of an ankle, or a tendril of hair – a glimpse of which can send a mere male into a sexual frenzy, are the tools of seduction.  In essence and to outline it crudely – the veil, much lauded by so called Islamic teachings, is a protection for men against we voracious vixens of the mortal world. Not, as so many pundits state, a protection for women against men.”

Is this still backing up Sarah’s position??

...and BTW BTS, please enlighten me how do you find the time to comment on almost every post that doesn’t suit your views? And what is driving you to do so? Some of your comments sound as you might be very close to Sarah!?!

BTS says:

05:44am | 27/05/10

Lin,

Interesting that you call Sara names, suggest her ” ‘arguments’ are not backed up with any real facts, figures or examples…” and then take another blog as being gospel, just because it accords with your view.  How is that Jacqueline is more believable?

The paragraph I mentioned still says it though, right?  If Jacquline is so believable, then it is a personal choice.

There are plenty of people who I haven’t responded too, but I see your aversion to balanced argument.  Being vindicative and calling writers names says more about yourself than what you write.

What drives me to do so is the education of ignorant people who never having been in someone else’s shoes feels they can abuse them, call them brats and expect them to accept their view, when they clearly have no idea what they are talking about.

At nearly twice, her age and living in a different State, I am pretty sure I am not ‘close’ to Sara and having never met her…thanks for the laugh though, it was amusing.

DG says:

11:28am | 26/05/10

Then how do you justify communication via newspapers, SMS or even your post on this board? What about listening to the radio, the use of the telephone or various other means of communication?

Face to face does have it’s advantages, but it is certainly not a boundary to perceiving someone as a human being. Clearly a person pressed the keys that wrote the message that you are now reading. You accept that when you posted a reply to the original author. Whether you respect someone with a hidden face as human, now that’s a different, and more personal matter.

You know there is a human behind the veil, just as you know there is a human behind the article, this post and telephone calls with your friends. It’s up to you whether you respect that person.

BTS says:

11:01am | 26/05/10

What human right is being violated?  I think you may need to research what human rights are in fact.

Kafir says:

08:38pm | 26/05/10

Universal Declaration of Human Rights Article 29.(1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.(2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.

BTS says:

05:49am | 27/05/10

Exactly Kafir,

The human rights protect the individual’s rights to cover their face, wear whatever they want to wear and be free of persecution because Ahmad wants to see their face.

DG says:

10:09am | 26/05/10

Your hypothesis poses a false dichotomy.

In a representative democracy it is possible for the population to support respect towards religion and multiculturalism without placing the same emphasis on democracy. The reason is simple. We have democracy - we do not have, and certain section desire, multiculturalism and respect of religion.

The two are not mutually exclusive.

If the majority of the people believe that people should be bound by god, then we end up with a democratic theocracy. The USA would already be a democratic theocracy if it were not for their constitution.

The capacity for any particular religious group to force their own sense of morality on any other group is by the number of votes that they have at an election. That said a “democracy” is not always right, it was a democracy that promoted slavery, it was a democracy that carried out the stolen generation and various other things.

Democracy is a method of doing something (running a country), it is neither good nor evil in it’s own right. It only ensures the most popular outcome at the date of the election. Nothing more, nothing less.

If the majority vote to ban Christianity/Islam/Judaism/Zoroastrianism/Hindu…, doing so is democratic. If the majority vote to segregate the community in the nature of apartheid so be it. It is still democracy - it doesn’t make it “right” in any meaningful sense.

Democracy does not confirm or promote “good” things, it promotes ” popular things.

Kafir says:

01:14pm | 26/05/10

So you have started to wear one after 9/11. We get it. Out of nowhere you ‘chose’ to bag yourself from the society as an Australian. And you find it laughable that a democratic society may create a law which may be incompatible with your religious indoctrination?

Fatima says:

07:50pm | 26/05/10

Actually I wore it before 9/11. 9/11 happened a bit later. Not sure what your point is but I am perfectly capable of making my own choice. Unless you think you are more qualified to know how/what I think or believe in?

Lin says:

08:03pm | 26/05/10

Fatima, what ‘made’ you start wearing a burqa as an18-19 year old ‘Australian’ girl? You chose to stand out, be an oddity, not only amongst your fellow students but your family as well?  Was it your personal insecurities, or was it a deliberate decision to alienate and irritate other Australians? Because these are the reasons ‘Australian’ women choose to wear the burqa, as my moderate Muslim friends tell me.

Fatima says:

09:55pm | 26/05/10

Lin: You seem to have already come to your own ideas about why I wore it? Is your point of view going to change if I actually try to explain why I wear it?

I don’t wear it to ‘alienate and irritate Australians’ or to be an ‘oddity’. What a strange thing to do for the rest of my life. I assure you I have better things to do than to care about what others think or to sit there plotting how can I irritate my lovely Christian Aussie neighbour.

To me it is simply part of my faith. I’m sure to most people who don’t follow my personal beliefs that would make it strange but I think most religious symbols are strange to those who don’t wear them or practise them. I don’t expect people to agree with my views or religious beliefs (because if you agreed with them then you would be doing it too wouldn’t you?) but I do expect not to be have stupid assumptions put on why I wear it or to be told that I am oppressed and need saving and also need part of my clothing removed so I can ‘fit in better with Australian values’. I totally forgot that freedom of religion was an Australian value. Or God forbid someone actually has a belief that differs from the majority?

My right to wear what I want is my right as long as it doesn’t harm anyone else. If anyone can explain how my right to dress is affecting their life personally in a harmful manner I’d love to hear it. Security reasons have already been explained. I am happy to show my identity whether entering a bank or at the airport or to a police officer at any time. And if those above who are advocating that the burqa should be banend to save Muslim women’s health well isn’t that a slippery slope to be going down? We’ll force people to cover up so they don’t get cancer? Make everyone wear a hat outside? Force everyone to sit in the sun for 10 minutes a day to get their Vit D levels up? Obesity is a much bigger health issue affecting a lot more people than the Vit D levels of less than a thousand women. (FYI my Vit D levels are fine). Why don’t we force people to exercise 30 minutes a day? Maybe strap them onto a treadmill for good measure?

People write articles for and against the burqa but no-one bothers to speak to those who actually wear it. Apparently forcing people to uncover is ‘for their good’ but forcing them to cover isn’t. What a strange logic some people have.

Lin says:

01:16am | 28/05/10

Fatima, you say “To me it is simply part of my faith” - refering to posts only on this page, it’s confirmed by pro and con arguments that burqa has nothing to do with Islamic faith but is an ancient tribal custom which has recently gained momentum in radical Islam. Dressing modestly would certainly be sufficient to express your Islamic faith. I could say a lot more, but let me just ask you one more question. You started wearing a burqa in uni, I assume you finished your degree. What for? Would any private or public organisation employ you wearing your outfit? I don’t think so! Therefore,despite being educated, you have excluded yourself from any employment in Australia.

XYZ says:

09:05pm | 31/05/10

Fatima… please tell me how you can safely drive a car when your peripheral vision is impaired by wearing a burqa?

BTS says:

07:37am | 01/06/10

XYZ,

Most Australian’s don’t look anywhere other than five metres in front of their bonnet when they drive, no need for mirrors, no need for turning to the left or right (unless you’re making a turn) and no need for peripheral vision.

Are you just as passionate against at wearing drivers?

XYZ says:

12:30am | 03/06/10

BTS… “no need for peripheral vision”

Did you get your driver’s licence from a Weeties packet?

Last time I drove (today), I constantly needed to use my peripheral vision. And a hat is no comparison to a burqa (which completely covers the face)!

BTS says:

10:53am | 26/05/10

There are also a lot of Muslim countries where you are allowed to consume alcohol.  There are 46 other muslim countries, so quoting one is not a fair representation.

lennie sparks says:

11:10am | 26/05/10

BTS,

How many of the 46 countries are you allowed to drink alcohol? and the ones where you are not WHAT is the punishment?

I worked in Saudi Arabia and the laws there include punishments such as beheading

BTS says:

11:39am | 26/05/10

Well lennie sparks,

As I haven’t been to all of them, I can’t tell you everyone that allows you to drink alcohol.

Did you know you CAN drink in Indonesia?

Guess what?  They don’t cut your head off if you do so!!!

adil says:

11:49pm | 26/05/10

Lennie, what Saudi Arabia does is not your business. Thats their life. Who are you to judge? They are not asking you to do anything. Off course different countries have different laws, so whats the problem

Peter says:

05:54pm | 26/05/10

Isn’t that what feminists do? Judge, incorrectly label people people, name calling, every bar the facts.. That’s what feminists do…

Victoria Cooper says:

07:11pm | 26/05/10

Where is the evidence to support the implication behind your question, Peter?  Some feminists judge, others do not, just as many men are judgmental, while others are not.  Being judgemental is a personal characteristic, not an attribute of a political philosophy. Generalisations do not help in any argument. For example, where do Feminists who wear the burqua fit into this debate, there are many of them in the world, but they do not fit into Sara’s polemic.

Peter says:

03:38pm | 27/05/10

Thanks Victoria. As a person who abhors generalising i’ll admit i have been doing a fair bit of it when it comes to feminism. I’m sure they are not all that evil.. But let’s be honest, it is quite common of some feminists to dismiss oppossing views by labeling people, misogynists, sexists, critise anything that remotely looks like patriachy, accuse us males of all of the crimes against womenhood that occured 500 years ago. If feminists acknowledge that men can be good people, i might be willing to do the same…

DG says:

12:12pm | 26/05/10

Doug,

I went to Uni with a girl who chose to wear the full body covering - no one told her that she had to, in fact she wasn’t even particularly devout in her Muslim faith (She would refer to God rather than Allah). She wore it to uni (probably 90% of the time), and sometimes when we were going out. She didn’t wear it at home (her parents forbade her from wearing it in the house) and she wore a bikini swimming at the beach.

The point was she wanted to wear it as an expression of her “Muslim faith”. That said, she would consume alcohol and did all manner of things that her ‘religion’ would most certainly frown upon.

Should she have been prohibited from wearing it? No. I don’t think she should.

Personally, I think that she liked wearing it so that she stood out and to challenge people - she only started wearing it after 9/11.
But again, that’s no reason to prohibit her from wearing it.

DG says:

01:02pm | 26/05/10

“we are obligated to abide by their rules and customs of that country”

No. You are obliged to comply with their laws, nothing more. You can disregard their customs as you wish - in won’t make for a pleasant environment, but it’s your choice.

I do not suggest that failure to comply with social norms will come without consequences, but that is nothing to do with the legality of the behaviour.

That said, I agree that you are entitled to your opinion. Equally, this who live here are entitled to tell you where you how little they care for your opinion (just as you care little for theirs) and to live their life as they see fit (within the laws).

No one is forcing you to become a Muslim, they are just seeking to partake of that freedom that you espouse as a great virtue of this country.

sunny day says:

01:10pm | 26/05/10

How are these women forcing their customs and beliefs on you, isn’t that what you are trying to do.  Did you accept the aboriginal way of life, or did you choose your own way of life.  And, again they are not frocing their views on you.  you find an extra piece of clothing on a woman offensive, yes that is your opinion.  I dont like the burqa, but hey i dont tell people what to wear and what not wear.  Are you going to tell the monks not to wear their orange coats out in public as well? or are you just discriminating against one culture and again it is only cultural not religious.

Lyndal says:

03:35pm | 26/05/10

I 100% agree.  I would advise those who sunbake to stop for health reasons, just as I would advise a burqa-wearer to do the same for health reasons. We are educated enough in this society to be aware of both extremes and the negative consequences, without having to be medical experts.  In both these cases, women are entitled to endanger their own health.  That doesn’t make either a smart thing to do.  This article was about burqa wearing, not sunbaking, so until you raised the point, sunbaking had not been mentioned in the discussion for anyone to talk about its health implications (given the reason that women wear a burqa, equating them with bikini-wearers is rather ironic, don’t you think?)

Peter says:

03:10pm | 27/05/10

Great point sunny days. See how “health” can be used to take away people freedoms… Our governments are currently concentrating on security to take away our freedoms.. The next focus will be on health (so they can take away more).... We are living in dark days…

Peter says:

11:09am | 27/05/10

Where does aethism and satan worship fit in to your definitions of cults? As far as im concerned most aethiest are quietly doing the work of the devil, that’s why they never critisise him..

Ben says:

10:25pm | 28/05/10

Aethism isn’t a movement or a collective group. That’s like saying all people who don’t collect stamps are a cult. My personal belief is that all religions are a bunch of old nonsense in line with witch burning and other superstitions of the time. If I came and told you I heard a snake talking to me and God was sending me messages you would think me mad. Religious groups claim the same, and it’s no different. Time to get a grip on reality and cast aside the silly kids stories of wizards with voices in their head performing magic spells. No prophets, no messages from God. Fairy tales.