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God in the classroom: School chaplaincy FAQs

Scott Abbot

by Scott Abbot

11 May 12:30pm

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Filed under: Chaplains, Education, God, Religion, School Chaplains, Schools

171 comments

What is the National School Chaplaincy Program?

Warning: Unauthorised deity is present…

The National School Chaplaincy Program was introduced by the Howard Government and expanded by $222 million under Julia Gillard in yesterday’s 2011 federal budget.  The program allows for schools to apply for a grant of up to $20,000 per year to employ a religiously affiliated “chaplain” to provide students with emotional and spiritual guidance.

What is “spiritual guidance”?

“Spiritual guidance” is a vague and largely invented “discipline” that only exists to ensure the employment of its teachers.

Like geography?
Exactly.

Why is the school chaplains program controversial?
Some people are concerned the program breaches a clause in the Constitution that states that the Commonwealth cannot make laws for “imposing any religious observance”. However, to ensure the program remains constitutional, chaplains are expressly forbidden from proselytising or promoting any particular set of beliefs. They are to only provide advice on values, morals, relationships, bereavement and other topics that religion has no position on.

Who chooses the religion of the school’s chaplain?
The Chaplain’s religion is decided through broad discussion between principals, parents and teachers. This will likely ensure that the Chaplain will be from the same denomination as the majority of school students. Children from the majority religion need extra support as they are often bullied for fitting in.

How does a chaplain of a single denomination work with children from many different faiths?
The guidelines state that chaplains must provide equal care to children of all faiths.  For example when it comes to bereavement counseling, chaplains should still tell children of other religions that their deceased loved ones have gone to heaven, even though the Chaplain’s own religion makes it clear they haven’t.

Can a secular chaplain be chosen?
Generally no.  Although the chaplain is required to provide equal comfort and advice to students of all religions, much like a secular counselor would, the guidelines state that a secular person can only be chosen if the school cannot find a suitably secular religious person.

Are religious counselors able to provide objective advice on issues like homosexuality and pre-marital sex?
Of course. Religious counselors provide comfort for all the sins.

Why did Gillard expand the program? Isn’t she an atheist?
No.  Gillard is a non-practising baptist.  The difference is that by calling herself an atheist Gillard upsets religious groups, but by calling herself a “non-practicing baptist” she upsets everyone.
By expanding the program, Gillard is pandering to interests outside her natural constituency, ensuring she is liked by people who don’t vote for her and hated by people who do.

Is school chaplaincy what the ANZACs fought for?
Sure.

Are chaplains qualified to do what they do?
Many psychologists are concerned that chaplains are not trained to identify instances of depression, suicide risk and abuse and hence may not know when to refer students for professional help.  The Chaplaincy program acknowledges that chaplains have limited qualifications but trusts they will use their lack of expertise to judge when a problem is beyond their lack of expertise.

Is Labor planning on further expanding the program?
If “Chaplains in Schools” is a success, the ALP may revisit the “Teachers in Schools” and “Students in Schools” programs.

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171 comments

Show oldest | newest first

    • Ryan says:

      12:51pm | 11/05/11

      You mean like Islamic schools?

      Reply

    • Tedd says:

      01:45pm | 11/05/11

      What’s your point, Ryan? 

      Wouldn’t it be great if all schools were inclusive of all belief systems, with secular counsellors at the fore-front supported by belief-specific chaplaincy services where necessary. e.g Islamic, Hindu, Christian, Sikh or secular chaplains could be circulating amongst a several schools?

    • Robert Smissen, rural SA, God's own country says:

      04:05pm | 11/05/11

      I checked this out as a job, I already work with teens but because I didn’t attend a CHRISTIAN church, I was not given an interview, for me a Muslim chaplain would be great, it would help the kids escape the ignorance of their parents

    • Horse says:

      04:32pm | 11/05/11

      Robert, That’s what the ANZACs fought for - the ability to deny non-church attendees an interview.  The Vicortian govt is upholding that tradition, too.

    • Ryan says:

      04:41pm | 11/05/11

      @Tedd: my point is just that, there are secular schools and hence you should not be surprised to find secular belief systems being taught there. I am sick of people sending their kids to a Christian school and then kicking up stink because lo and behold they are taught Christian values.

    • Tedd says:

      05:53pm | 11/05/11

      Ryan,
      secular schools do not actually teach “secular belief systems”.  They teach about a variety of belief systems in ‘General Religious Education’, and even them may not teach about atheism or agnosticism, and I doubt they teach about secularism ‘per se’.

      Your point about people complaining about “Christian values’ being taught at Christian schools does not follow from Scott Abbot’s article about the chaplaincy program in state schools ...

    • acotrel says:

      05:36am | 12/05/11

      I have three questions. -  What formal qualification is required for a person to become a counsellor either in schools or in the medical areas?  I believe that it’s almost impossible to get this support for the mentally ill, where are all these trained people coming from for the jobs in schools?  Are the religous counsellors to be trained in clinical psychology and suitably certified?

    • Debra says:

      09:17am | 12/05/11

      Religious instructions should be taught at state schools only if parents want it to be taught to their children. Why should Govt’s pay a chaplain to teach religious instruction? It is up to the church to send out their ministers to the state schools to see if they are needed. The state schools then gives them a donation for their services. Religion should never be political. The bible is there to be read, pick the good parts and ignore the rest.

    • Kirsty says:

      12:57pm | 11/05/11

      Good read, pity it’s going to actually be implemented in this form and I suggest a few schools will be fighting a few fires if advice provided is a little dodgy and or biased to one religion/set of beliefs. 
      Regarding bereavment wouldn’t that be a better job for a parent to maybe deal with??

      Reply

    • Rose says:

      01:51pm | 11/05/11

      Most things would be better off if the family could provide support, but sadly that is not always possible. If the bereavement is of the other parent, or a sibling, chances are mum/dad is struggling through their own bereavement issues. Some families are also not equipped to deal with conflict, confusion, change and other such things, and outside support is needed.
      I don’t think people should be excluded from counselling roles because of their religious affiliation, but I definitely don’t think religion should be a prerequisite for these roles. Having grown up through the Catholic education system, and putting my kids through the same system, I can tell you there are religious (ordained or not) people who make exceptional counsellors, and there are others who are absolutely clueless at best and downright disturbing at worst.  I have also dealt with different secular counsellors, and the exact same applies, some are great, some are worse than useless.
      Every school student should have free access to counsellors, but those counsellors need to be employed because they are damned good at what they do, not because of their faith or lack of it!!

    • Seanr says:

      02:29pm | 11/05/11

      Well said Rose

    • Kirsty says:

      03:07pm | 11/05/11

      I understand your point, I was at school when it was first bought in.  The chaplain at our school mostly just played soccer with the kids who went to his church.  When he did talk to kids who were not of the same religion it turned into a bit of a slanging match due to the parents misinterpreting his role.  I think each school should have a person providing guidance but I fear the reaction from parents who don’t fully understand the program will cause problems.  That is what I mean with the fighting fires part. 
      Good point with the bereavment part I had nto fully considered it.

    • Silver says:

      03:27pm | 11/05/11

      Well, further to that point, I think most schools would love the money to hire trained counselors.  They all see the value in having someone available to students who can actually help and guide them through difficult problems.  Sadly, money hasn’t been provided for that, it’s been provided for chaplains.  Some chaplains may have the ability to be counselors, but the large majority don’t.  The largest slice of them come from evangelical Christian sects.  From the school’s perspective, it’s better than nothing, but not what they really want.

      Counselors in schools would be fantastic.  Chaplains in schools is a recipe for conflict, anger and miscommunication.

    • Considered Opinion says:

      10:42am | 12/05/11

      Parents in general don’t talk to their progeny about anything, as they ahve no idea how. Further, the progeny go to school prior to being toilet trained and cause issues that have parents of the lower socio economic zones complaining because little Johnny age 5 is coming home with nappy rash. This is of course the teachers fault for not changing the revolting little urchin’s shit catcher, which if the breeder had half an ounce of brain would have been unnecessary by the age of 18months, as was the case for most of us readers.
      People who breed should have to undergo an exam to see if they understand that the filthy little mongrels they breed will grow up to be criminals like their parents, with a likelihood in excess of 67% if both parents are criminal scum bottom feeders, and 33% where only the male procreator is/was a prisoner/crim/scum/bottom feeder.
      I need a licence to breed my reptiles, but anyone can be a parent. Makes you wonder where this country is going in my humble opinion.
      As for chaplains in schools, good idea but wtf pay them? Make the sessions with them voluntary for the brats, and make sure they don’t fill the tiny minds with their right wing bullshit.

    • SimpleSimon says:

      12:59pm | 11/05/11

      I enjoyed this article.

      Personally I think the program should be for qualified counsellors, not chaplains (don’t know if that already exists, haven’t bothered researching). Supporting the mental health of all children without religious bias (whether real or implied) should be the priority, with “spiritual guidance” reserved for private religious schools and weekends.

      Reply

    • Robert Smissen, rural SA, God's own country says:

      04:06pm | 11/05/11

      Chaplains are cheaper, it is that easy

    • skepdad says:

      10:17pm | 12/05/11

      Chaplains are cheaper because they have an agenda that is subsidised by their tax exempt sponsors.

    • christine m. says:

      01:02pm | 11/05/11

      The most concerning thing here is that psychologists are concerned.  If they’re fretting, the policy is sure to be harmless.

      Reply

    • Tedd says:

      01:15pm | 11/05/11

      who’s fretting? over what?  The amount of money being spent is not harmless, nor is the one-sidedness of the chaplaincy program.

    • christine m. says:

      02:19pm | 11/05/11

      Over what?  Over these chaplains getting in first.  You know, wrong sort of counselling -  vested interests.  Though the atheist-Julia Gillard-support-thing is odd.  Scott Abbot states she’s a lapsed Baptist.  So….there you go

    • KH says:

      01:05pm | 11/05/11

      If you want your children brainwashed by some religious pusher, do it in your own time.  If its that important to you, you will find time.  Set up sunday schools or whatever.  Tell them they are descended from fairies if you want - what you do with your own time and in your own home is your business.  Since school is largely compulsory for children, these people should not be allowed to get at them there whilst they are a captive audience.  I don’t believe for one second that ‘secular religious people’ (whatever that means) aren’t foisting their own ideas on children, whilst dressing it up as something else.

      Reply

    • KHypocrite says:

      02:39pm | 11/05/11

      Would you like the notion of feminism discussed in schools? Should young girls have a female they can turn to for guidance? Your comments on the Harrington article today demonstate that you will find an issue where there is not one. One may even go as far as to say that you will even take offence when none is intended. I do hope you chose to home school your children as you can not protect them from other people’s beliefs you just have to parent them and hope that you impart the wisdom allowing them to make their own choices.

      You also use extrememly offensive language in response to something you seem to find so uneblievebly offensive. In the words of the great man Ice Cube - chickedy check yourself before you rickety wreck yourself.

    • KH says:

      03:10pm | 11/05/11

      I find it offensive that religion is being pushed in schools.  I know plenty of parents who really aren’t happy with ‘religious instruction’ or ‘scripture’ classes, and on top of that, advisors who are clearly of a religious background.  And it is an issue - there are a lot of people who just don’t believe the religious stuff any more, or have different beliefs.  Further, there is nothing wrong with being taught both genders should be equal - it certainly doesn’t equate to belief in fantasy beings.

    • KHypocrite says:

      03:36pm | 11/05/11

      In your haste to demean you fail to recognise what religion actually means to a lot of people. I means absolutely nothing to me, but I at least recognise what it represents to some people. This is why you are a hypocrite - you want to push your own notions of society on to people, but refuse to acknowledge that others may have their own beliefs. I see no issue in gender equality, but it is as clear as the nose ot Barbara Streisand’s face that feminism has not gone so much further than that. You see this is an issue about access. Why are you so frightened that children could potentially have access to someone who may be religious? What if your child has genuine questions about “god” and “faith” and feels that they can’t turn to you to answer those questions because you spew crap about sky fairies and fantasy beings without even listening to what they are saying? What if your child just wants to sit down and speak to someone about how hard they are having it at home - would you rather they tell that to a potentially christian chaplain who is being paid to listen and offer referral if unable to help, or a crack pipe?

    • KHypocrite says:

      03:46pm | 11/05/11

      Apologies *feminism has gone so much further than that.

    • Bev says:

      04:11pm | 11/05/11

      KH says:03:10pm | 11/05/11

      Further, there is nothing wrong with being taught both genders should be equal - it certainly doesn’t equate to belief in fantasy beings.

      That however is not what is is indoctrinated by feminist school events like white ribbon day where young boys have ribbons tied around their wrists while being told a pack of feminist lies about DV and that most adult men in their lives are beating up their women and that they will grow up to be insensitive bruts just like them.
      Now that IS offensive.

    • Elin says:

      05:42pm | 11/05/11

      KHypocrite says:
      “What if your child just wants to sit down and speak to someone about how hard they are having it at home - would you rather they tell that to a potentially christian chaplain who is being paid to listen and offer referral if unable to help, or a crack pipe?” Actually I would rather they talked to a trained professional that has gone through rigorous checks, not to mention extensive education on exactly how to handle those situations. If a child has genuine questions about god and faith then they can go to a church or whatever.

    • KHypocrite says:

      06:58pm | 11/05/11

      Elin, I’d prefer that to, but given that most teachers have to purchase their own stationery - I don’t see schools being able to afford a “trained professional” to sit around waiting for kids to come to them with their problems. Like it or not, the people most likely to do this have to offer the service for little or no payment. Unless you are willing to achieve that qualification at massive personal compromise and expense over man years and then work for $20k per annum? Like it or not, it requires charity and christian folk are generally a charitable bunch. You can not dispute that them that fact.

      Also KH, when I went to a state school Religious Instruction and Scripture classes were opt out. I did not want to take part and at my request my parents wrote a note and I was permitted to study in the library while other students took part. Does that not happen anymore?

    • Faybian says:

      07:51pm | 11/05/11

      I seem to remember getting consent forms sent home to us for all our kids about whether we wanted them to receive religious education or not. So it was never pushed down their throats. I’ve worked in schools and most of the chaplains I’ve come across are very approachable and work with the nurse, guidance officer and senior teaching staff. Our youngest went to the chaplain last year after a family crisis and was very happy to keep going there. Religion was not the main theme either.

    • austin 3:16 says:

      08:23pm | 12/05/11

      “Religion was not the main theme either.”

      So it was a minor theme, a supporting theme?? Why should it be a theme at all?

    • RKB says:

      09:34pm | 12/05/11

      Couldn’t agree more. After teaching with a evangelistic woman for the past 9 years in a public school, I am astonished to see how much she gets away with being a zealot in a school that is about as multicultural as you can get. Even doing Christian discussion groups by teachers volunteering in this role is unethical in the public system if you don’t also provide the same opportunities for every other religious affiliation. If you want to push a religious viewpoint then teach or send your children to a private school so that “we” the secular tax payers out here aren’t subsidising your propaganda. Julia Gillard you should be ashamed of yourself for continuing let alone increasing the funding for such Howard inspired programmes.

    • Andy says:

      01:06pm | 11/05/11

      Funny article, good work.

      I consider myself a devoutly religious person (yeah, yeah, I know “sky fairy believer” and all that, get it over with) and I find the whole religion in schools thing very odd.

      If a parent is so concerned about their child learning about their chosen faith, shouldn’t the parent be doing something about it by taking the child to church on a Sunday (or Friday or Saturday if that’s the way you roll)?

      Why is it somehow the school’s responsibility to reassure little Dylan and Brianna that their goldfish really did go to goldfish heaven even though mummy flushed him down the toilet?

      Public schools should be for secular learning. If you desire otherwise then send your kids to a church run school so they can have the full post-modern religious experience and be felt up by randy priests while they learn about transubstantiation and see who can scull the most communion wine.

      Reply

    • Elphaba says:

      01:45pm | 11/05/11

      Exactly.  For those parents that have a strong connection to faith, they will be teaching it at home.  For others, it is something to come to in their own time, not to be made a part of the school program.

      I’d be much more concerned about my kids being able to read and spell and do maths, rather than where their soul might end up.

    • seniorcynic says:

      03:38pm | 11/05/11

      The state high school I attended in the 1960’s employed a chaplain who was really a counseller, so the idea isn’t new. As an agnostic at the time later to become an atheist I was against the idea but I found him to be a pleasant person who did not push religion. I gather that the reason he was called a chaplain not a student counseller was so that the school could get the churches to contribute to his salary.

    • Mick Nqld says:

      07:05pm | 11/05/11

      I the late 80’s and early 90’s we had a Chaplin at a public school I attended. He was a born again christian but not the preachy kind. Used to be a brick layer. Made us an awesome equipment shed on his own time.  He never pushed his beliefs on anyone but was there to talk to and played a mean game of chess (never did beat him). I’m militantly atheist ,but most kids can sort the BS anyway.  I don’t see any harm in it. The preachier they are the less effective they will be.

    • Elphaba says:

      01:07pm | 11/05/11

      “However, to ensure the program remains constitutional, chaplains are expressly forbidden from proselytising or promoting any particular set of beliefs. They are to only provide advice on values, morals, relationships, bereavement and other topics that religion has no position on.”

      All that training, and then no preaching.  Bugger!

      I like Geography at school.  Of course, it had something to do with the teacher, he was awesome.

      Reply

    • michael j says:

      02:30pm | 11/05/11

      Army Chaplin’s might be well suited for this job,Sky-Pilots have plenty of
      experience in the areas you mentions,and can give sensible advice on what you should do if hit in the head with a bit of lead,and i know some have comforted dying ANZAC’s in their last moments,,,,,

    • Robert Smissen, rural SA, God's own country says:

      04:12pm | 11/05/11

      Michael J check the words of Eric Burdon’s song “Sky Pilot” army chaplains usually are just another form of god botherers making a quid

    • michael j says:

      05:39pm | 11/05/11

      IT’S also their Army radio call sign - hence the song,,,

    • kate says:

      04:12pm | 12/05/11

      If chaplains are not proselytising, how does Scripture Union fulfill its stated aim “[making] God’s Good News known to children …
      so that they may come to personal faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, grow in Christian maturity and become … committed church members…. through school chaplaincy”  ??

      They don’t even pretend to be counsellors. Any help and support they might accidentally provide is entirely incidental to the main goal of proselytising.

    • fairsfair says:

      01:07pm | 11/05/11

      Oh god this is such a non-issue, please make it go away.

      Are any children being doused in holy water and tied to a chair using rosary beads and forced to speak to this chaplain? Are the stock standard “guidance councillers” (who are appropriately trained and used as a primary source of career coaching) being taken away?

      I think the answer to these questions is essentially no.

      The only thing that is really a yes is that kids will use a visit to the chaplain to get out of double maths. Why is that such a bad thing?

      Reply

    • Seanr says:

      01:27pm | 11/05/11

      I especially find amusing the atheists/agnostics who went to religious schools, complain about the indoctrination, which apparently they managed to avoid but which current schoolchildren will succumb too.

      They also avoid talking about any ‘secular indoctrination’ that children might get from teachers eg AGW bad, Che Guevara was a freedom fighter, capitalism is the greatest etc etc. Since children are in constant contact with teachers shouldn’t we be more concerned about this?

      As a taxpayer I pay for plenty of things that i might not use or agree with but for me as long as children aren’t forced to see them it’s a non issue.

    • L. says:

      01:31pm | 11/05/11

      “Are any children being doused in holy water and tied to a chair using rosary beads and forced to speak to this chaplain?”

      No, of course not. But the issue as far as I see it isn’t the chaplaincy program itself, but the massive stink caused by the religious nuts when someone dare offered up an alternative..“ethics” classes.

      The religious people saw the ethics program for what it was… a competitor. They pretty much also knew the outcome to that competition in the long term, and it wasn’t good for Team Sky Fairy.

      If the chaplaincy program was any good, they wouldn’t fear the ethics program.

    • L. says:

      01:38pm | 11/05/11

      “Since children are in constant contact with teachers shouldn’t we be more concerned about this?”

      Yes… and we are…and as parents we can have input to the syllibus via appropriate channels. The curriculum evolves all the time.

      Do we have a voice in what is taught via the chapliancy program..?

      “Che Guevara was a freedom fighter”... where is this taught???

      “capitalism is the greatest”.. You mean this is a better, working alternative..?? Where..?? What..??

    • Tedd says:

      01:39pm | 11/05/11

      Those atheists/agnostics who went to religious schools think or realise what a wast of brain-effort and time religious-thinking is.

      There notion of ‘secular indoctrination’ is a straw-man red herring - a notion just created to attack secularism.  Take care, inclusive secularism will protect religion more and more in future.  Do not underpin a concept that is beneficial to all.

    • Tedd says:

      01:51pm | 11/05/11

      “..*waste* ..”

      “8The* notion ..”

    • fairsfair says:

      02:03pm | 11/05/11

      What about the athiests/agnostics that willingly pay to send their children to private Catholic Schools due to their perceived superiority to the state system? My sister in law teaches at one and the majority of her class are NOT catholic. My 2nd cousin is not christened from a family of non-religious and goes to that very same school. They have no issue with the fact that she has to go to mass weekly and gave up icecream for lent - they just laugh when they are forced to attend a church function to watch her sing/dance or when she says things like “why does Jesus Christ have so much swearing in his name?”.

      All this says to me is that in childhood children are exposed to many many different ideologies. They generally take on the one that is portrayed within the home. My little cousin will soon realise that she has the same beliefs toward religion as her mother does. Should her mother be criticized - no. Her child is actually being exposed to both worlds, heaven forbid her child (who is an individual in her own right even at the tender age of 7) has a choice.

      I won’t criticise the government for allowing choice within the state school system. A lot of christian children attend. This initiative clearly states that beliefs are not to be pushed. Ethics, by its very definition is vehemently against religion in all its forms - it is not comparable.

      And BTW - I too am athiest.

    • Bev says:

      02:05pm | 11/05/11

      L. says:01:31pm | 11/05/11

      The religious people saw the ethics program for what it was… a competitor. They pretty much also knew the outcome to that competition in the long term, and it wasn’t good for Team Sky Fairy.

      If the chaplaincy program was any good, they wouldn’t fear the ethics program.

      Many people (not all religious) saw the ethics program as an form of
      Nihilism (from the Latin nihil, nothing) .

    • Elphaba says:

      02:05pm | 11/05/11

      @fairsfair, because I can’t teach them Maths at home because I suck at it.  I want them in double Maths! lol

    • Ando says:

      02:06pm | 11/05/11

      Seanr,
      “atheists/agnostics who went to religious schools, complain about the indoctrination” havent met to many of them.
      “They” may have no problem with Catholic schools teaching Catholic values
      “They” are more worried about wasting time and money in public schools more than indoctrinatuion.
      “They” may have no problem with Catholic schools teaching Catholic values

      Who the #$@# is “they”

    • Seanr says:

      02:10pm | 11/05/11

      @L I’m in favour of an ethics program and I agree that religious groups see it as a competitor. Of course it raises the question as to what would be taught in this ethics program and it isn’t that just another form of ‘indoctrination’ just from a non-religious standpoint.

      The examples I gave were more to highlight that children are always going to be exposed to a particular teacher’s viewpoint or interpretation of the data, doesn’t make it good or bad, just a fact of teaching.

      Also I’m sure school chaplains are monitored and advised on what they can and cannot say.

      I’ll point out that I’m not a religious person. I just don’t see religious viewpoints as being an entirely bad thing.

      @Tedd re your first paragraph – so today’s children can’t figure this out for themselves?
      Your second paragraph – a religious person would make the same argument about religion and saying something is a ‘strawman’ doesn’t make it so.

    • Shane from Melbourne says:

      02:58pm | 11/05/11

      double maths is useful. religious indoctrination is not.

    • Andrew Skegg says:

      03:04pm | 11/05/11

      $220 million of your tax money is being diverted to placing religious people in from of public school children, then telling them they cannot be religious.  Moreover, according to reasearch by the Rationalists Society of Australia only 2.5% of chaplains hold professional qualifications despite admitting to dealing with the following in the two weeks prior to the survey:
      •95% of chaplains reported dealing with behaviour management issues, such as anger
      •92% with bullying and harassment
      •92% with peer relationships and loneliness
      •91% with student – family relationship issues
      •85% with sense of purpose and self-esteem
      •81% with grief and loss
      •77% with community involvement and social inclusion
      •76% with spirituality and ‘big picture’ issues of life
      •72% with mental health and depression
      •50% with alcohol and drug use, and
      •44% with self harm and suicide

      Sit on your hands if you wish, but I see this as a gigantic waste of money.

    • fairsfair says:

      03:57pm | 11/05/11

      I don’t agree sorry Andrew, even with your statistics. If this policy allows kids to turn to someone (even to just use them as a sounding board) in a safe environment, I am all for it. I would much rather see children be offered someone to turn to over giving people set top boxes (which costs more than this).

      Also, there are a shortage of teachers in schools. How many psychologists (who can charge hundreds an hour in the public sector) would be intereted in taking a permanent role at a high school for peanuts? If the govt tried to create this, we’d be looking at a lot more than $222mil.

    • Andrew Skegg says:

      04:38pm | 11/05/11

      “If this policy allows kids to turn to someone (even to just use them as a sounding board) in a safe environment…”

      The underlying premise of your argument is that religious people are “safe” while secularists, agnostics, humanists, rationalists, and atheists are not.  Pity this has no basis in reality.

    • fairsfair says:

      04:46pm | 11/05/11

      Nope. I just mean they are an appropriately checked individual (blue card, character referenced) within a confidential, safe (designated classroom) environment. Thats are basic and real as a state school can get.

    • fairsfair says:

      04:46pm | 11/05/11

      Nope. I just mean they are an appropriately checked individual (blue card, character referenced) within a confidential, safe (designated classroom) environment. Thats are basic and real as a state school can get.

    • Andrew Skegg says:

      07:40pm | 11/05/11

      “Nope. I just mean they are an appropriately checked individual “

      Excellent!  I agree.  Then you should be standing shoulder to shoulder with me in asking our Government to remove the overtly religious preference for public school chaplains.

    • Liam says:

      08:22pm | 11/05/11

      fairsfair: “Ethics, by its very definition is vehemently against religion in all its forms - it is not comparable.”

      You’re partially correct. Ethics is incompatible with religion, but it isn’t because ethics (a secular concept) has any specific discrimination against religion. It’s the fact that religious doctrine considers its own dogma superior to anything not written in its holy books. So, a more accurate way to say it would be that religion in general is vehemently against ethics - because why should we consider for ourselves what is right or wrong instead of stoning somebody to death like it demands in the holy books?

    • fairsfair says:

      08:51am | 12/05/11

      just to reaffirm my opinion:

      Oh god this is such a non-issue, please make it go away.

    • Vance says:

      02:53pm | 18/05/11

      If it’s a non-issue, you’re free to ignore it.  Why bother defending the NSCP, if you don’t care?

    • sir ronald bradnam says:

      01:07pm | 11/05/11

      What a total waste of yours and my hard earned dollars.
      I would have loved to see Gillard cut every cent from this ludicrously spent money it could have gone instead to something far more worthwhile and plausible like saving the environment of the endangered easter bunny.
      Our children dont need someone bleating on about something that doesnt exist, have you ever seen a kid look forward to his religious studies program, no way.
      I am perfectly capable of teaching my children Morals, standards and what is right and wrong I dont need someone brainwashing them and trying to make them believe that the earth is 5000 years old and that we came from someones rib, lucky kids arent that stupid to believe that shit.

      Reply

    • jec says:

      10:10pm | 11/05/11

      Sir ronald bradnam ... Did you even read the article before you commented?  In no way, shape or form would a chaplain be “bleating on about something that doesn’t exist ...”!
      In the article it very clearly states “... Chaplains are expressly forbidden from proselytising or promoting any particular set of beliefs”.  Got it?
      I hope you read it this time!

    • Darlo mum says:

      11:30pm | 11/05/11

      Jec, you are being a bit naive. My 5 yo son came home the other day and told me that god made the whole world and that Jesus died and came back from the dead. I told him none of it was real, just like Santa but this time he wasn’t sure I was right…

    • Anthony says:

      12:21am | 12/05/11

      @ Darlo Mum. That would be as a result of SRE (School Religious Education I think or simply ‘Scripture’ in the old lingo). That is a very different thing to the school chaplaincy program.

      What amazes me is that many comments on these forums show how uneducated many people are that there is in fact a difference between Scripture and the Chaplaincy program. Perhaps people demonstrating such ignorance shouldn’t be so quick to throw stones at something they quite obviously don’t know too much about.

    • Darlo mum says:

      09:34am | 12/05/11

      Anthony, are you saying that SRE is not funded by this bucket of money? If not, is it funded by the government from a different bucket or is it funded by the churches themselves? Curious why DPS has no chaplain then and whether they can spend the $ on something else? I guess I can ask the principal. (I have read a lot of articles about this issue recently and none of them have explained this difference.)

    • Anthony says:

      12:53pm | 12/05/11

      @ Darlo Mum. SRE is funded from within the various churches that provide the volunteers for the program. All the government provides is the time in the school day.

      For the most part the people that present the SRE program are not paid for what they do. Those few that are paid generally have SRE as part of their wider ministry duties. IE I know the person who presents SRE at the local high school is also a minister at the local church and SRE forms part of his ‘working’ week. All the SRE presenters at the local primary school are volunteers.

      My local primary school has no chaplain allocated to it either. Nor does the local high school. Not sure what the criteria are for having a chaplain as some schools in the region certainly have them- both primary and high schools.

      I think the money is quarantined for the chaplaincy program and it’s up to the school to request it’s use for that program. IE they identify the person they’d like as Chaplain and then the funding will come.

      I have my suspicions about why many secular writings don’t go into the difference between SRE and the Chaplaincy program but it’s a general ‘vibe’ rather than anything concrete. I feel it’s part of what is demonstrated by many people on these sorts of forums. Much easier to make inane and mis-representative comments than actually work through both sides of the issue.

    • Aidan says:

      01:10pm | 11/05/11

      “The Chaplain will be from the same denomination as the majority of school students.”

      Don’t most school kids practice Harry Potter-style witchcraft nowdays?
      Hmph, this should be interesting.

      Reply

    • HappyCynic says:

      01:56pm | 11/05/11

      If most kids don’t practice a Harry Potter style witchcraft these days, I recommend commencing a program encouraging children to take it up.

      I only want a program like this just to see the apoplectic rage that occurs when the nutters like the ACL hear about it smile

    • Horse says:

      01:12pm | 11/05/11

      Spirituality is such a poorly defined concept, and not-consistently-practised, so “spiritual guidance” is also unable to be practised with any real benefit.

      Reply

    • Bitten says:

      01:37pm | 11/05/11

      Can a secular chaplain be chosen?
      Generally no.  Although the chaplain is required to provide equal comfort and advice to students of all religions, much like a secular counselor would, the guidelines state that a secular person can only be chosen if the school cannot find a suitably secular religious person.

      I loved this!!

      Reply

    • loxy says:

      01:39pm | 11/05/11

      I don’t think a child who is struggling with their sexual identity needs to be told being gay is a sin, even if it is done in a “comforting” way. This program should be scrapped and the money funding actual professional counsellors that can really help children!

      Reply

    • Shane says:

      02:06pm | 11/05/11

      Very true.  Had that a lot when I was at high school with an end result being a yelling match between me and the RE teacher who decided to yell out that I was going to hell and nothing I could do would change that fact.

      Maybe introducing concepts like the ‘That’s So Gay’ framework would be of much better use than chaplaincy to the majority of Australian children. 

      After all, approx 65% of Australians declared a religious affiliation according to the data from the last census which leaves a hell of a lot of people having to listen to stories of heaven in order to get access to so-called objective advice and guidance.

      Why is it so hard to conceive of a school where you can get emotional support without the religious banner?

    • Kath Grant says:

      05:19pm | 11/05/11

      While I’ve been reading these comments I’ve wondered how many school councillors - who have studied and trained for years - have been replaced by less expensive chaplains.
      As a person with twenty-five years of experience teaching in public schools I can tell you that any government initiative for schools centres on which is the cheapest way to go.  The education of kids doesn’t really matter.

    • Tubesteak says:

      01:48pm | 11/05/11

      I wasn’t expecting to get a laugh out of this but I did. Good stuff.

      I remember being at school in the 80s and we had “Scripture” classes. I remember being told that people are starving in Africa because the Americans went there and led them around and didn’t feed them.

      Even as a youngster I was an atheist and would question the scripture teacher about everything they would say. One time I made her cry. I still consider that to be a great achievement.

      School Chaplaincy Program = massive waste of money that could have bought a few more computers.

      Reply

    • Can dunk says:

      11:39am | 12/05/11

      “One time I made her cry. I still consider that to be a great achievement”

      The dark heart of atheism appears before us.

      Clearly you haven’t matured since school. Your comment reminded me of the scene in Star Wars where the Emperor repeatedly shocks Luke…joyously evil. And I think this comment is an example of why people of faith are so fearful of an atheist ascendency - I’m no longer amazed you guys wasted 100 million believers in the 20th century when this is your attitude.

    • Lee from WA says:

      01:51pm | 11/05/11

      Is school chaplaincy what the ANZACs fought for?
      Sure.

      :golfclap:

      THAT is a funny gag. I got a nice surprise from this article. I thought it was going to be a big payout on the idea of federally funded chaplains so its nice to have it be a relatively friendly article.

      Reply

    • PD says:

      02:02pm | 11/05/11

      What do you expect from such a backward, regressive and conservative country like Australia where people generally only care about interest rates, baby bonuses and real estate? We might as well have Adolf Hitler running this country and no one would complain as long as he gave people all of the above mentioned things.

      Keep going in this direction Australia and you will become the mockery of the western world.

      Reply

    • MK says:

      02:11pm | 11/05/11

      I take it you haven’t travelled much?

    • DG says:

      02:29pm | 11/05/11

      I call “Godwin’s Law”.

    • Biff says:

      02:37pm | 11/05/11

      lol PD. I could take issue with your post but you seem like an idiot so I won’t waste my time. k thx bi

    • Boink says:

      02:40pm | 11/05/11

      PD, I feel we’re already the mockery of the western world. Just look at the knobs we let into this country who don’t treat it or it’s owners with any respect (go grab a mirror PD and you’ll see what I mean).

    • PD says:

      03:12pm | 11/05/11

      @MK I travel abroad a lot and I am very ashamed about telling people I am Australian considering our appalling human rights record, our rampant sexism, homophobia and racism

      @Biff Typical of those who can’t rebuke with fact and arguments to call other idiots

      @Boink I suggest you go and look up in the dictionary what “democracy” and “free society” mean since people who move to a country have the right to criticize things just like any other citizen.

    • Ando says:

      03:49pm | 11/05/11

      “considering our appalling human rights record, our rampant sexism, homophobia and racism’
      being such an expert can you rank us according to our record on these matters, I suggest Australia would come off pretty well. Do some real travelling.

    • Barry says:

      05:27pm | 11/05/11

      So basically Australia ranks number 2 on the U.N. Human Development Index, and Inequality Adjusted Human Development Index.  Obviously, these things are very broad, but I’m thinking things can’t be too bad .  . . . .

    • Boink says:

      10:03am | 12/05/11

      I don’t need to look every word up in a dictionary fool, I know what they mean. Yes you have a right but it doesn’t mean you are not one hell of a rude obnoxious turd to do it. It’s like saying it is quite ok to go to a dinner party and then criticise the host for the food. Just rude. When you are a guest, which is what you are no matter what your passport will ever say, you should just shut up and bite your tongue. Looks like we have taken in another quality import…. *sigh*. Must be a pom.

    • Biff says:

      10:05am | 12/05/11

      What statement do you want me to argue goose? The one about Hitler being our leader? Errr, yeah great argument fool. Like I said, idiot. Hitler… good grief.

    • Carlo Di Martino says:

      02:03pm | 11/05/11

      Brilliant! Just brilliant!

      Reply

    • MK says:

      02:07pm | 11/05/11

      I bet the psychologists are worried. This might rob them of the opportunity to make some more kids reliant on mood altering drugs. 

      Not wishing to sound like Tom Cruise here, but in terms of real world applicability, psychology is almost as esoteric as religion. Don’t kid yourselves that the practitioners actually know what the blue hell they’re talking about.

      Fair dinkum if it wasn’t for neuroscientists and chemists, psychologists would still be flapping around trying to cure homosexuality with electricity.

      Reply

    • Sickemrex says:

      05:58pm | 11/05/11

      Amusing article.

      “Fair dinkum if it wasn’t for neuroscientists and chemists, psychologists would still be flapping around trying to cure homosexuality with electricity”

      Bahahaha!

    • Lisa H. says:

      07:06pm | 11/05/11

      Yeah, the theory that the brain is a bag of chemicals is being replaced with a newer theory that the brain is more like a series of ‘circuits’ with ‘switches’. 

      Psychologists know relatively little about the evolution of the brain, the development and interaction of the two hemispheres, and even how the modern brain functions. Mix in the profession’s ever-changing views on ethics and… you have Nihilism’s preachers.

      Perhaps every school needs to hire a common sense and experienced ‘Granny’ for the kids to talk to.

    • Liam says:

      08:40pm | 11/05/11

      MK: “I bet the psychologists are worried. This might rob them of the opportunity to make some more kids reliant on mood altering drugs.”

      You’re thinking of psychiatrists, who are completely different. Psychiatry is practised by medical doctors. Psychologists are not medical doctors and generally have nothing to do with mood-altering drugs or electrotherapy. In fact I discussed the difference with a psychologist just last week, and he had a very low opinion of drugs and psychiatry in general.

    • Jolanda says:

      02:09pm | 11/05/11

      Personally I think money would be far better spent on ‘Social advisors’ as the majority of the problems in schools are connected to social issues as kids really are not taught how to deal with social issues.

      I think kids would be less likely to go to a Chaplain over friendship problems or difficulties.  I think kids are also less likely to go to a counsellor as that gives the impression that there are ‘issues’ that are serious rather than just the normal run of mill school yard issues that occur every single day between friends and peers.  I also think kids would not be comfortable speaking to a teacher as social issues can be complicated and often they do not want teachers to be involved - for obvious reasons.

      Education – Keeping them Honest
      http://jolandachallita.typepad.com/

      Reply

    • Jon says:

      02:10pm | 11/05/11

      This is proof that the Labor has lost its way and is in the final stages of political and cultural suicide. This is pure Cultural Relativism in practice and this program shows the Labor party has failed to uphold universal ideas of justice, failed to sympathise with the religiously oppressed and has lost its commitment to truth. The Chaplaincy program needs to stand up for Secular values even when these values in many cases conflict with religious dogma.

      Without the promotion of values based on Western Secular philosophy the Labor Party has no claim to cultural, moral or political authority.

      Reply

    • Rose says:

      11:41am | 12/05/11

      Ummm, this is a Howard government program continued and extended by the Gillard government, so maybe it’s a sign that both sides have lost their way?? Regardless, if you are going to use a policy to insult the government you should at least spend a few minutes ensuring you know where the policy came from in the first place!

    • Jon says:

      11:59am | 13/05/11

      Yes, I know it was a Howard program. But for Labor to continue and expand the program exposes them to a greater decree of Hypocrisy than Howard. They use to be the party than supported Secular values more so than the Liberals but they adopted cultural relativism position on these types of issues at the expense of the Secular ones.

    • Glen says:

      02:34pm | 11/05/11

      Actually Christianity should be somewhat funded by the government, but from War on Terror Appropriations. Osama is dead - now lets just make sure the certain whack job religion from the ME doesn’t become the majority.

      Reply

    • Jordan says:

      02:47pm | 11/05/11

      I COMPLETELY disagree with those who oppose this plan the government is successfully undertaking. The chaplaincy program will benefit the Australian people in several ways:

      1. It provide employment for people who would otherwise stand by the side of main roads in their tattered clothing, holding signs that say when and where ‘the end’ will be;
      2. It will provide money for the Catholic Church which, until this chaplaincy program had been introduced, was barely scraping by on their billions of dollars worth of assets and property;
      3. The chaplaincy program will enable us to discuss topics other than whether Pippa Middleton is hot, why Julia Gillard’s fashion sense is/is not important to the future of Australian politics and whether the new season of Masterchef will be as good as the last.

      Anyone who opposes such an essential component of the future of the Australian people is completely and utterly…...oh…..hang on.

      Damn it.

      Reply

    • Shane says:

      03:15pm | 11/05/11

      You idiot. Access Ministries is non-denominational, meaning the Catholic Church stand to make zero dollars. The Catholic Church may have billions in assets and property, but as an organisation it’s also the largest provider of education on the planet and the largest provider of healthcare on the planet. For it’s many many faults it also does a lot of good for a hell of a lot less money than a private organisation concerned with profits would charge. Do some research before you try to be snidely condescending towards an overwhelmingly good organisation.

    • Jordan, Shane's mate says:

      05:08pm | 11/05/11

      Fair enough then, I will have to do some more research before I act in a snidely condescending manner towards The Organisation.

      I’m sorry, but I am just critical of religious influence in schools. I have seen “spiritual advisers” stand in front of a class and claim that those who do not believe in God are not entitled to education in Catholic schools. I’ve also been told by a chaplain that I am going to be unhappy all my life and die alone, because I don’t love God.

      As someone who has had years of experience with Catholic schooling and chaplains in public college, I can say that it is not beneficial in the slightest. Actually, the songs I learnt at high school are great fun when I’m at parties….everyone thinks I can speak Latin.
      If the Church provides funding for education but allows schools to have optional religious classes, then that would be great! But of course, backs must be scratched.

      Do I have to go to and confess my ignorance now? Or should I just slip in an extra $5 in the donation basket and me and the Boss will be even?

      And don’t call me an idiot. Love thy neighbour?

    • A different Rosie says:

      05:28pm | 11/05/11

      Don’t get your dander up Shane.  I think it’smeant to be read as irony/satire.

    • DaveinPerth says:

      10:44pm | 11/05/11

      @Jordan - I thought the article was funny. But your post is better.

    • Religious Rort says:

      11:08pm | 11/05/11

      @ Shane

      They may make zero dollars but they more than make up for it with the rort of their tax exempt status. This means you and I are paying their way. What a joke.

    • Basil says:

      02:48pm | 11/05/11

      It is a pity that so many who go beserk over programs like this do not know that being “secular” does not preclude theistic beliefs, and specifically Christian beliefs:
      The preamble of the Australian Constitution says:
      Whereas the people of New South Wales, Victoria, South Australia, Queensland, and Tasmania, humbly relying on the blessing of Almighty God, .......

      Reply

    • Andrew Skegg says:

      02:58pm | 11/05/11

      Your excerpt from the Constitution is incomplete, section 116 reads in full:

      “The Commonwealth shall not make any law for establishing any religion, or for imposing any religious observance, or for prohibiting the free exercise of any religion, and no religious test shall be required as a qualification for any office or public trust under the Commonwealth.”

      The last part is of prime importance for those against the NSCP.  Schools are deciding the religion and/or demonination the federally funded chaplain will hold, and (according the the Department’s own FAQ) it’s only after every effort to hire someone of the “correct” religious views can the schools turn to others.

      To get an idea of how this plays out, substitute religion with skin colour.  Can you imagine a Government program which instructed participant to make every effort to hire a white person before considering blacks?  Or men before women?  It’s disgraceful.

      To further rub salt into the wound, chaplains are then bound by the guidelines not to be religious.  So why are we hiring religious people in the first place?  Surely or children need qualified professional rather than those who profess a beleif in some religious ideal.

      Reply

    • Tchom says:

      03:38pm | 11/05/11

      Can I borrow the word ‘Demonination’ for the name of the new death metal band I’m starting?

    • Tedd says:

      04:28pm | 11/05/11

      What will they worseship?

    • Tchom says:

      03:20pm | 11/05/11

      Guys, guys, I think we’re all misplacing the burden of blame. Its not the pollies or the church. Sissy children are costing this country $222 million.

      Reply

    • Yuri says:

      03:33pm | 11/05/11

      Judging by a lot of the comments, I would say that many people do not understand what school chaplains do.

      Chaplains do not teach RE classes or any other part of the curriculum.

      Chaplains are not allowed to talk about their personal beliefs unless the student specifically asks.

      From what I have heard from chaplains I know, they are employed a few days a week (on relatively low pay) to be there for when the kids need someone other than an authority figure to talk to.

      So far I have only heard positive reviews of the chaplaincy program, so unless there is a massive cover up of abuse then I can’t see why some people have such a large issue with it.

      Reply

    • Tchom says:

      04:05pm | 11/05/11

      Why have people with religious training and a religious agenda into a non-religious role with government money?

    • PD says:

      04:06pm | 11/05/11

      There have already been documented episodes of blatant abuse of power by those so called “chaplains” who in my opinion are just charlatans wanting to convert people.

      Since there is no punishment for those people who don’t follow the guidelines especially in regard to the “don’t preach rule” how are those people going to be stopped from brainwashing our children?

    • Andrew Skegg says:

      04:43pm | 11/05/11

      No one is suggesting chaplains teach Religious education.  They are not qualified to do this.

      Nor are they qualified psychologists, counsellors, or youth workers.  In fact, it seems they are not qualified to do anything but provide “spiritual guidance” - in a non religious way of course.

      Ask yourself how you would you feel if the Government had a Program which only employed atheists, even where a better qualified religious person was available and willing.

    • Yuri says:

      05:14pm | 11/05/11

      @ Tchom
      I think the main reason is that the chaplaincy program is partially funded by churches, scripture union etc. so if it was open to anyone then it would cost the government a lot more.

      @PD
      I shall have to look into this abuse that you speak of. (That’ll teach me for being too lazy to google!). I definitely agree though that there should be a more stricter regulation of the program.

    • Barry says:

      05:31pm | 11/05/11

      @PD
      The only way to stop your children from being brainwashed at school is to ensure they don’t go to school.  This way you could keep them at home and brainwash them yourself.  Problem fixed.

    • kate says:

      09:00am | 13/05/11

      Virtually every chaplain in schools is recruited, trained and employed through ACCESS Ministries or Scripture Union.  Both organisations are absolutely explicit – their aim is to convert schoolchildren.  Nothing else.  Any counselling, support or guidance they might accidentally provide is entirely incidental to the main game:  getting children into the cult. 

      Quote from CEO of ACCESS Ministries: “I am first and foremost an evangelist.  It is that desire to see young people come to know God and be in relationship with Jesus that drives my leadership of ACCESS ministries. …  [School chaplaincy] is a great way of …  making new people for God.”

      Quote from Scripture Union website:  “Scripture Union aims to make God’s Good News known to children, young people and families and to encourage people of all ages to meet God daily through the Bible and prayer so that they may come to personal faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, grow in Christian maturity and become … committed church members ….  SU operates in every state and territory and mobilises thousands of volunteers each year to engage young people and families in holiday programs at beaches and in urban or rural townships, camps, secondary and primary schools, through sports, recreation, outdoor education and school chaplaincy.”

      They don’t evangelise?  That is an out and out lie.  They don’t even bother to pretend.

    • bleD says:

      04:06pm | 11/05/11

      I read somewhere that chaplains were to be provided by the Scripture Union. In the interests of fairness should they not be recruiting from Islamic Faith establishments or Rabbinical schools as well? The whole business stinks. They should spend money on properly trained psychologists.

      Reply

    • Kika says:

      04:38pm | 11/05/11

      Problem with that is psychologists charge $180 an hour. That;‘s $1080 a school day $5400 a week. I think schools have better things to do than spend that kind of money on psychologists.

    • NESLIHAN KUROSAWA says:

      04:20pm | 11/05/11

      Hi Scott,

      I believe that religious education is a very important part of a child’s life, however since very first education begins at home early on, all parents ultimately play a great role in this particular matter!!!  Most believe that the religious education should begin at a very early age, which means well before school begins anyway!!  Where the strong foundation to any kind of knowledge may be necessary for a good beginning & a solid future for our children!! 

      I personally think that religion and faith are very personal issues to begin with, as well as it varies immensely with cultural & racial differences in our community as a whole!!  Because of that reason, unless a school is a particular denomination, I do not see the need for it.  We should leave this particular guidance just like any thing else to the parents to decide for themselves what is in the best interest of their children!!  Best regards to your editors.

      Reply

    • The Cricket says:

      04:34pm | 11/05/11

      Hear, hear!!
      There is no other political issue that angers me as much as taxpayer dollars going towards a program which is basically a means of trying to win votes from Christians.
      I would never belittle religious people with the whole “sky fairy” stuff, but taxpayers should not be paying for children to be religiously indoctrinated.
      As others have pointed out, the chaplains are not allowed to proselytise - so what bloody difference does it make whether they’re religious or not?!?!
      If governments think kids need guidance at school, then get people in there who are qualified in this area. Their religion - or lack thereof - should be completely irrelevent.

      Reply

    • MK says:

      04:59pm | 11/05/11

      The “difference”, such as it is, is that professional counsellors/psychologists cost a fortune but chaplains are willing to do it for a pittance.

      PS. I hardly think having some bloke turning up a few days a week and talking to kids who’ve been bullied or whatever, counts as “religious indoctrination”.

    • Monty says:

      05:16pm | 11/05/11

      Neslihan, Cricket, I completely agree.

      Why should religion in our schools even be something that must be aggressively under debate? Religion is, and should be, a personal relationship with your deity and it should not be necessary to share that experience, unless personally initiated, within the school environment.

      I believe in God, but I would never send my children into an environment where they are surrounded by the teachings of a particular faith. Their birth certificates do not specify a religion because one day they will be able to make an informed decision about their faith.

    • Sinistra says:

      11:12pm | 11/05/11

      @ MK

      If they want to do it for free, go ahead. If not, the govt should not be paying them to come into public schools.

    • Chrys Stevenson says:

      04:39pm | 11/05/11

      If, having read this article, you are now absolutely convinced of the idiocy spending $800 million of tax payers’ money on the National School Chaplaincy Scheme, please consider making a donation to the High Court Challenge against the Federal Funding of National School Chaplaincy.  http://www.highcourtchallenge.com

      Reply

    • Septimus says:

      05:02pm | 11/05/11

      Yes, because if you can’t rely on the stylings of an internet comedian (it’s in his bio) to bring home a High Court challenge, then there is no hope left in the world.

    • Chrys Stevenson says:

      09:37pm | 11/05/11

      Septimus despite your snide comment, Mr Williams is backed by a team of some of the best legal minds in Australia including Bret Walker SC (google his name), Gerald Ng and the law firm Horowitz & Bilinsky.  The fact that the case has now been through several directions hearings and his scheduled to be heard in the High Court in August suggests that the Justice Gummow, along with the government’s legal experts agree that there is a case to be heard. Fortunately, our High Court Justices and legal experts have more confidence in the gravity and value of Williams’ case than you do.

    • Septimus says:

      06:00am | 12/05/11

      Chrys,

      Gee no sense of humour?  If you case was ‘so serious’ one wouldn’t think you would be relying on an internet comedian for support nor begging for money like a street urchin.

      Oh and if you think victory is going to change the situation then you don’t understand politics very well.  Line you lawyers pockets and watch them change the law to permit it.  You can be very proud of what you have achieved, but only for an hour (<———-now that’s the snide part).

    • pete m says:

      04:45pm | 11/05/11

      They save lives by preventing childhood suicide.  Even 1 life saved is worth the money in my opinion.

      the restriction on “office of commonwealth” does not apply to these roles, as they are not public servants or crown office holders of the commonwealth.  the high court case will be thrown out in rapid emasure.

      Reply

    • Chrys Stevenson says:

      01:21am | 12/05/11

      Actually, more lives would be saved by trained, secular counsellors. There is some evidence to suggest that chaplains, because of their lack of training, miss important signs that may be picked up by someone with professional training in youth mental health issues. 

      Consider the issue of Alex, a student at Kadina State High School in Lismore, was the victim of long term, relentless bullying and physical abuse by his peers.  Yet, despite having spent a ‘significant’ amount of time with Alex over several months, the school chaplain admits that he “… never picked up that he [Alex] was being harassed.”  Notably, the school counsellor had no dealings with Alex during the sixth months he was at Kadina and the school acknowledges that “No real attempt was ever made to encourage Alex to see the school counsellor”.  Perhaps they believed, misguidedly, that with the chaplain working with the child, there was no need.

      The extent of Alex’s problem only came to light when Alex was punched repeatedly in the face by a fellow student.  The chaplain’s response was to approach Alex on assembly the next day and ask if he was OK.  Alex replied, “ I’m fine … it’s all cool now…”  and, apparently, the chaplain took him at his word.

      The next day Alex hanged himself.

      Let me make it perfectly clear, I am, unequivocally not blaming the chaplain for this incident.  I do, however, blame the government that made this teenager’s first line of support a person who obviously had insufficient training to pick up on the signs of a child in danger.  The chaplain is as much a victim in this as anyone.  He was put in a position for which he was clearly unqualified.  He failed to see the signs that a trained counselor may have noticed.  He failed to ask the questions that might have encouraged Alex to share his concerns.

    • Brian says:

      04:48pm | 11/05/11

      In the next budget I’d like to see astrologers funded to counsel kids.  At least they would be constitutional - and perhaps a little more scientific than religionists.

      Reply

    • bleD says:

      06:28pm | 11/05/11

      Astrologers and religionists are equally misguided. Where is the science in astrology?

    • Sickemrex says:

      06:50pm | 11/05/11

      Ummm, the stars upon which they base their magical science actually exist?

    • Rebekah says:

      04:59pm | 11/05/11

      The chaplain at my daughter’s school comes from the Scripture Union, their aims are apparently:

      to make God’s Good News known to children, young people and families and
      to encourage people of all ages to meet God daily through the Bible and prayer so that they may come to personal faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, grow in Christian maturity and become both committed church members and servants of a world in need.

      This rubbish is being funded by the tax payer, when that money could go to real counsellors with proper training.

      Reply

    • kate says:

      04:09pm | 12/05/11

      Correct.

      The EXPLICIT AIM of , Scripture Union (overwhelmingly the largest provider of chaplaincy services) is to convert children to their cult. The WHOLE POINT of what they are doing is to RECRUIT. They target children, and specifically children who are not currently church members. They measure success by how many children become “committed church members”.

      They don’t even pretend to be counsellors. Any help and support they might accidentally provide is entirely incidental to the main goal of proselytising.

      Have a look at these quotes from their website: http://www.scriptureunion.org.au

      “SUA (Scripture Union Australia) is part of a global movement .. working for the cause of the Christ”

      “Scripture Union aims to make God’s Good News known to children …
      so that they may come to personal faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, grow in Christian maturity and become … committed church members.”

      “SU operates in every state and territory and mobilises around thousands of volunteers each year to engage young people … through … school chaplaincy.”

      “SU’s ministry brings us into contact with hundreds of thousands of children, young people and families per year making SU one of the largest mission movements to children and youth in the world. “

      Anyone who thinks SU chaplains are there to be warm & fuzzy are deluding themselves.

    • killerbee says:

      05:06pm | 11/05/11

      Q.“Are religious counselors able to provide objective advice on issues like homosexuality and pre-marital sex?
      A.Of course. Religious counselors provide comfort for all the sins.”

      A very large % of students are having pre-marital sex, either straight or gay sex.
      Are they being told that it is a sin and that it is forbidden?
      I thought we lived in the 21st century where we had put all that guilt stuff behind us.
      Teenagers need to be advised about responsible birth control not made feel “second class” and guilty because of natural urges.

      About the only decent thing the previous NSW Government did was to introduce Ethics classes in schools. It’s time The Federal Government followed suit and introduce Ethics classes Australia wide.

      Reply

    • bikinis on top says:

      05:58pm | 11/05/11

      at school, we are meaningless people who learn meaningless things in an attempt to add meaning to our meaningless lives.
      we forget school as soon as we graduate.
      at work, we are meaningless people who do meaningless things in an attempt to meaning to our meaningless lives.
      we forget work as soon as we retire.
      at death, we are meaningless people who cease learning and doing meaningless things in an attempt to add meaning to our meaningless after life.

      Reply

    • Can dunk says:

      01:29pm | 12/05/11

      An atheist take - won’t sell well.

    • malohi says:

      06:00pm | 11/05/11

      Waste of money.
      More teachers or computers would be better.
      The idea that psychology is any more reliable than “spiritual guidance” is laughable however…

      Reply

    • bikinis on top says:

      06:04pm | 11/05/11

      Schools sort the sheep from the goats or the bimbos from the brains.
      God votes Labor as Labor does God’s Work.
      Labor provides voters with heaven on earth.God gave us Labor.
      “God’s Followers”  vote Liberal and they can go to hell.
      God rejects Abbott and Abbottobad.

      Reply

    • stephen says:

      06:26pm | 11/05/11

      Chaplains in schools is meant to take the place of a best friend, who could well do what Mr. Skeggs up there says, but how many best friends in school are left when you might have sold them a packet of top..‘ah, get this into yer bro’...dope and got sprung by the janitor, who bought some yesterday and returned it as..‘horse-shit’.
      There’s more drugs in schools that books.
      The alternative is best quality, and compulsory, sports training and inter-school events.

      Reply

    • bikinis on top says:

      07:15pm | 11/05/11

      tony abbott should retire and become a school chaplain.
      there is more money and less risk is involved

      Reply

    • Rich Fleming says:

      07:26pm | 11/05/11

      Awesome Piece Scott… Hats off to you.

      Reply

    • Terry says:

      07:40pm | 11/05/11

      Stay the f..k out of schools and stop poisioning our children. Spend the money on science.

      Reply

    • robbo says:

      08:36pm | 11/05/11

      Well deary deary me, what a surprise. At long bloody last a comment that makes sense. Thanks Scott, when I heard this announcement last night I was infuriated and then realised that Garrett was using his position as Ed Min to push one of his hobby horses,ably abetted by jules. Bloody disgusting in a country that supposedly prides itself on it’s secular attitudes. The fundamentalists of all religions are dangerous and all kids should be protected from them.

      Reply

    • Grumpy says:

      09:00pm | 11/05/11

      Yup agreed, kids are confused enough. Provide non-religious counselling, what does god have to do with it? Arent we supposed to allow for gods intervention, not force it.

    • DJ says:

      01:55pm | 12/05/11

      Only a few would agree our country “prides itself on it’s secular attitudes”. Most would agree that it’s our widely shared Christian values and traditional morals that make this country great. The mountain of evidence against the lie of a secular equalitarian utopia continues to pile up showing modern secularism is only about the destruction of religion. New laws , under the guise of equality, diversity and anti-discrimination, are being passed all the time now that are designed to make it impossible to follow one’s faith in a secular society. It’s your right to try to destroy faith in this world, but please be honest about it - lets make it a fair fight.

    • Servaas says:

      10:35pm | 11/05/11

      I come from a place and age where schools generally didn’t have chaplains so I can’t say I’m fully familiar with the concept.

      One question I have regarding the above piece though is, what is a secular chaplain? Do they talk but have no opinion or do they just not say anything - cause you know, listening is the most important part of counceling?

      Reply

    • Cynic says:

      11:17pm | 11/05/11

      What a joke. If Governments want counselling in schools they should provide qualified counsellors. Religion should not be in public schools, parents can religiously educate at home, church or enroll their child in a private religious school if they want to.
      Just another example of the government pandering to the religious. And to think I used to vote labor…

      Reply

    • Pete says:

      07:13am | 12/05/11

      A secular democracy makes sense and Australians have always held the view that religion and politics dont mix. So here we have a government led by an atheist funding a chaplaincy program in schools. how ironic. 

      The government should not dabble in religion and religions should not dabble in politics.  If only it was true. What on earth are these people thinking? 
      I am beginning to regret my fence sitting vote last election. there is the stench of death around a government which seems to be going out of it’s way to alienate every voter in Australia and as a by product prove that it is one big cluster f$%k. Before you ask, I have never voted liberal (before), but if I do I am faced with the dilemma of the mad monk, who has some very retrograde views when it comes to womens health issues. What are we to do?

      Reply

    • Mysterious Ways says:

      07:17am | 12/05/11

      Chaplains should be in Charley Chaplin type movies - seen but not heard.

      Reply

    • petery says:

      09:04am | 12/05/11

      Having taught in NSW schools for over thirty years, I am intrigued by practical implications of giving class room space to a chaplain,particularly in high schools.

      Firstly though the opening answer in this article stating that what the chaplain is teaching is ‘vaguely defined’  and then says like geography, sounds like the whole thing is meant to be tongue in cheek. The rest of the article sounds serious, so someone is mixed up here, and I am assuming it is not me.

      Having just left a school with over twenty different cultural or national groups repsresented among the students, I am not sure how that school would choose a chaplain to suit a majority,because it had a range of different denominations, and a large number of muslim students. I doubt it would happen. It was a senior high school though with everyone over sixteen, and maybe the assumption is that by that age kids are lost to Satan anyway.

      As is stated often everytime some politician or wants a new subject taught in school. where is the space in time table to fit it? There is bearly room for traditioal scripture now, and not sure that even happens in most schools anymore.

      Schools only get $20,000 - fairly low paid job at $390 approx a week,if you don’t deduct tax. Most casual teachers get that for a day and a half casual work, with out the spiritual concern of the whole school on their shoulders. My God would never be that cheap in rewarding people who worked for him. Sounds like the Devil \has got to work to stuff the whole thing up to me and seduced a few gullible liberal politicians to do his bidding.

      sorry if i am not taking this seriously,but the whole thing seems like a half baked idea from some godly or ungodly person, who knows nothing about what really happens in schools..The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

      Reply

    • Pete says:

      10:36am | 12/05/11

      theology, the study of something that is unproven or the study of theo the sky fairy.  Classes on ethical behaviour would have been more effective

    • Dieter Moeckel says:

      09:42am | 12/05/11

      Chaplains are not all equal. Some can manage to be secular and neutral and really do became an adult sounding-board for young people. Islam is one of the three judaic religions and can be adequately covered by a secular Chaplain.
      Apart from the Chaplain most school have “God teachers” as my grand daughter called her RI or RE volunteer.
      Chaplains are under the control of the school’s administration and if or when they stray into proselytising can be brought to account or corrected.
      I have heard some very good reports of Chappies - the Chappie at the school where my daughter teaches married her and most of her friends before going to University to take on teaching as a vocation.
      Also remember that Chappies are para-professionals much like teaching assistants.

      Reply

    • Peter Hinton says:

      10:36am | 12/05/11

      I was initially excited about the idea of an Atheist Prime Minister. I thought, perhaps naively, that religious lobby groups would find it harder to bend the ear of policy makers and legislators. What we’ve since discovered is that these lobbyists have essentially been given more, not less, influence. Gillard is so terrified of the “Atheist Issue” that she’ll be walking on communion wafers for the remainder of her term. This fear materialized on Tuesday night in the form of $222 million in borrowed funding that will formally and firmly install Christianity in our public schools. We need a leader who has the inverse fear. We need a leader who is so publicly religious that they’re frightened of appearing to pander to religion. Dare I say it? We need Tony Abbott.

      Reply

    • Pete says:

      02:25pm | 12/05/11

      you mean the guy that gets advice fromGeorge Pell?  Doesnt pander to religion? What planet are you on?  His stance on a raft of issues is straight out of the vatican

    • Huey says:

      10:52am | 12/05/11

      What do we call a subtle dig? Perhaps a sssssssssshovel? Nice article.

      Reply

    • Thomas Anderson says:

      01:36am | 13/05/11

      At $20,000 a year, you’re not gonna find a super qualified, “PhD in Psychology and a wall of certificates” counsellor. These chaplains do it because they want to help people, something their religion is based on.

      Reply

    • kate says:

      09:10am | 13/05/11

      “These chaplains do it because they want to help people”

      No, they do it because they want to recruit children into their cult.  The websites of both ACCESS Ministries and Scripture Union are quite explicit about this:  the goal is conversion.  Counselling & support are barely mentioned as an incidental - the main game is evangelising. 

      They barely make a secret of this because they actually think it is a good thing.  They have to tone down the rhetoric slightly to fit within the guidelines (and the Constitution!) but make no mistake, there’s only one thing they’re there for.

    • Vance says:

      03:40pm | 18/05/11

      “These chaplains do it because they want to help people, something their religion is based on. “

      Scripture Union chaplains are expected to believe we all belong to a “fallen race”, and that children are inherently sinful.  Of course, Jesus offers the only true path to salvation.  Any help these people provide is likely to be based on this manipulative ideology, rather than out of genuine unconditional compassion.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      10:58am | 06/08/11

      So Vance from your statement below you know what others motivation is for what they do and you can claim 100% without knowing them personally that they have no Love and Compassion.

      The Scriptures tell us when we judge others according to our own agenda or understanding we are judging ourselves meaning we are looking in a mirror and seeing our own reflection…sad that you are doing this as your words show.

      Vance says: Any help these people provide is likely to be based on this manipulative ideology, rather than out of genuine unconditional compassion.

      Be very careful who you point your finger at Vance because the rest are pointing back at you.

      Kind regards Anne.

      Reply

    • Vance says:

      05:21pm | 08/08/11

      Anne,
      I never accused chaplains of having no compassion.  I said it is unlikely to be genuine unconditional compassion.  Of course I don’t know exactly what each chaplain thinks, but I do know what Scripture Union expects its chaplains to believe - that children come into the world tarnished with sin and in need of divine redemption.  Original sin is a manipulative condition-based doctrine that uses guilt as its motivating factor.  There’s a price attached to this kind of altruism.

    • Anne Stocks says:

      11:13am | 28/08/11

      Vance says…Anne, I never accused Chaplains of having no compassion.  I said it is unlikely to be genuine unconditional compassion… Sorry Vance you are saying the same thing and as you said yourself it is without you understanding their heart focus.

      Vance it is not Scripture Union who told Chaplains that we are all born with the sin nature it was God because it is True we are all born with Adams D.N.A , God warns us not to cause harm but out of Love so we will accept His free Gift of Salvation and be made spotless by receiving His D.N.A or seed as the Bible calls it, the same as you Vance would warn someone you Love who is in danger and offer a way of avoiding it.

      As for Children Vance,  the Bible tells us they go to Heaven until they are of an age to understand good from evil, Jesus said so Himself .

      But we only have to stop and think…would our God of Love even in His justice send a Child or the Mentally disadvantaged of any age to Hell for eternal torment because they could not understand about Salvation in Jesus Christ, I’m sure that is not how you see Him Vance,  it just is not in our Heavenly Father’s Godly Nurture to do such a thing… He is Love.

      Kind regards Anne

      Reply

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