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Even for angels a warm inner glow ain’t hard cash

Maree McDermott

by Maree McDermott

11 Mar 05:55am

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Filed under: Community, Equal Pay, Society, Women

121 comments

When people ask me what I do for a living I tell them, then I bite my tongue. You see, I’m a community development worker.

A community development worker sweeping up after the riots in Redfern, Sydney, in 2004

In my outer-suburban neighbourhood centre I manage a host of programs for people who need support: grandparents who’ve taken custody of their grandkids in distressing circumstances, playgroups for toddlers with teenage mums, skills training for long-term unemployed, to name a few. 

You could put your last $5 on the response (and I am often down to my last fiver so maybe I should). “Oh, you must be an angel!” they say; and, “it must be great to have such a rewarding job.”

I bite my tongue, because expletives from a woman of my years might come as a shock.

But no, I’m not an angel. Here’s how I know:

  • I have three different tertiary qualifications and I’m midway through a masters degree. I’m not sure about the current angel registration scheme, but I don’t think it involves university.
  • I live with constant financial stress. Watching me try to balance my household budget when the car rego comes in is not an angelic sight.
  • I don’t appear in any ads for Philadelphia cream cheese.

As to the job being rewarding, well yes, it is. I help people who’ve been dealt difficult hands in life. I save the government a packet of money by helping communities function better and keeping people out of crisis.

Community services like ours benefit all Australian families at some point, whether through playgroup, drug and alcohol rehabilitation, mental health support, bereavement counseling or domestic violence intervention. 

All of these things make me proud. 

But I get paid a pittance to do it; and that makes me mad. No amount of Warm Inner Glow will pay the electricity bill. 

Across the country there are 200,000 community workers like me - 90% of us women – refuge workers, youth workers, crisis workers, counselors, social workers, or like me, community development workers.

Most of us are highly educated and experienced – I’ve been in this sector 25 years – and we usually earn $40,000 to $50,000 a year. 

There’s no doubt in my mind that were the figures reversed, and 90% of us were men, our average income would be significantly higher. 

That’s why I’m getting involved in a pay equity case launched by unions today, which takes a new approach to measuring the pay gap between men and women. We will be comparing pay between jobs in male- and female-dominated industries, rather than pay between men and women in the same industry, doing the same job.

It’s not just we community workers feeling the financial pain of outdated attitudes that fail to recognise the reality of women’s roles as workers and breadwinners in 2010. 

Our mortgages and our families rely on women’s financial contribution more than ever. Yet full-time working women in Australia earn 17% less across the board than full-time working men – that comes to a million bucks over a lifetime. 

It’s true that there are more of us in ‘caring’ and ‘people’ professions – whether nursing, teaching or community work. 

But frankly, emotional satisfaction – and let’s be honest, dealing with people is a very mixed bag – isn’t part of the salary package. I think I’m speaking on behalf of many working Australian women when I say, “show us the money!”

I look forward to playing a role in our community sector pay equity test case in Fair Work Australia in the coming months. I’m proud to stand up for community workers as career-driven professionals and demand recognition of our social and economic value to Australia. 

As for angels, until they’re covered by a comprehensive award with decent pay, you’ll not find any at my neighbourhood centre. 

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121 comments

Show oldest | newest first

    • Eric says:

      06:05am | 11/03/10

      More feminist entitlement whingeing.

      Men do the dirtiest jobs, the ones that involve hard physical labour and the highest risk of injury and death. Men do the vital jobs that keep the water flowing from our taps, the electricity on, and the food available in the shops.

      Your job might give you a warm inner glow, but if you stopped doing your work it would make little difference to the world. If men stopped doing their work, you would starve to death within weeks.

      If you want to be paid like a man, then work like a man.

      Reply

    • Robert says:

      09:01am | 11/03/10

      Eric, this is the most ridiculous comment.

      Here is my favourite part of your stupid remarks:
      “If men stopped doing their work, you would starve to death within weeks”

      I’m going to tell myself your comment is a joke and laugh

    • DJames says:

      09:28am | 11/03/10

      Eric,
      As a man, doing the dirtiest jobs, the ones that involve hard physical labour and the highest risk of injury and death, you appear a prolific Punch contributor.

      Is your lap-top with you in our sewers (keeping the water flowing), with you in the cherry-picker (keeping the electricity on) or in your combine harvester (as a primary producer)?

      Are you commenting from personal experience?

    • Jeannie says:

      10:11am | 11/03/10

      Hi Eric,

      Have you worked in a care facility and cleaned up someone’s bodily waste lately?
      Cleaned any toilets?
      Worked as a nurse?

      Hmm, maybe women employed as nurses and teachers should just stop doing their jobs and see if it makes “little difference to the world”.

    • Adam Diver says:

      10:57am | 11/03/10

      Don’t like the pay? Change jobs you have three degrees which I assume makes you qualified for many higher paying jobs.

      But really makes me laugh: 200,000 community workers! Thats nearly 1 for every hundred people. I doubt we can afford to pay you more.

    • Paul Horn says:

      11:25am | 11/03/10

      Well said Eric again spot on the money.

      The difference is Jeannie if women withdrew their labour men would take up the slack within minutes!! If men did the same the power stations, water treatment plants, manufacturing industry, avation, transportation indistries etc etc would come to a grinding halt!!!  Within a few days YOU would be dead or gouging some other desperados eyes out of his face to take his meagre rations to keep yourself alive.

      And we keep banging on about the contribution of nurses but did you ever stop to consider for one moment the contribution made by that army of technicians (just about all male) that keep all that complicated electronic equipment going? Without it you would not have a modern hospital now would you? By comparison nurses are trifling in importance. So they change a few bed pans, clean up someones excrement, feed a few people, I do that with my children all the time and it takes NO training.

      My wife has a degree in disability studies, I have a degreee in Engineering. I busted my guts doing 40 contact hours a week at Uni with twice that in external study to get through! She did about 5 hours a week with barely the same amount in external study. Is she worth the same as me? I’ll punch anyone out who even dares suggest it! The fact that she gets paid one third is an absolute outrage and then she gets fringe benefit entitlements that increases her salary by a third again just becasue she works in the “caring” professions!!! CRAP! I wonder if the unions will look at that little perk that so many women especially enjoy!

      I used to scrub pots in London, utterly back breaking work for about 3 bucks an hour! As a silver service waiter doing next to nothing apart from serving a few drinks my hourly rate tripled.  Now why was that? Its called supply and demand. To be a silver service waiter required far greater social skills that were not required of a pot scrubber.

      So quit your whining Ms McDermott you are overpaid on 50 grand as it is! If you don’t like it I suggest you retrain yourself and find a more lucrative career just like everyone else in the private sector is forced to do!!! Punch on!!!

    • Great Idea says:

      12:14pm | 11/03/10

      Great idea. I say we put that theory to the test. Next International Women’s Day all women should go on strike and see if anything we do really makes a difference…

    • James1 says:

      12:21pm | 11/03/10

      Hi Paul,

      Have you told your wife that she is of lesser value than your good self lately?  I sincerely hope that she has never mentioned being equal to you at home, otherwise she may well be needing to call on one of the women’s shelters run my Ms McDermott, judging by how you treat people who say your wife is equal to you…

    • Saffron says:

      02:22pm | 11/03/10

      Dear Eric
      I agree that men do most of the physically hard and dangerous jobs, that communities would face difficult times if all you wonderful men stopped doing your jobs or stopped creating and building.
      Women are equiped in a different way physically and emotionally. We start bleeding every month from puberty to menopause when our hormone levels change, but this doesn’t kill us. We continue on with whatever work we are doing while we bleed.
      We incubate and birth all the worlds children (from the beginning of time), this only takes nine months and several hours of intense uterine contractions, but this doesn’t usually kill us.
      We provide most of the nurturing to the children and the aged and the disabled because the men are out fixing taps and pouring concrete or designing things that have sharp corners (not good for little ones when run into)!
      If only men would stop warring with others and attacking and invading and wanting more than they might be naturally entitled to…than maybe I could find a plumber to fix my grease trap!

    • Toby says:

      03:43pm | 11/03/10

      Paul Horn,

      You must be pretty dopey to need to do all that work just to pass engineering, it’s not brain surgery

    • Journeyman says:

      04:15pm | 11/03/10

      Paul Horn,
      40 contact hours plus 80 external study hours, you’ve discredited yourself entirely right there. I’m an engineer; its about 15 to 20 contact hours plus about 10 external study hours max with the odd late nighter. It’s not even that hard if your that way (engineering) inclined. If you needed 120 hours to get through uni you’re a complete dullard as well as ignorant and conceited, which is obvious from your rant. I pity your wife.

    • Eric says:

      06:25pm | 11/03/10

      DJames,

      Sorry I couldn’t get back to you earlier.

      I was at work, providing clean water and waste disposal to the population of Australia.

      You’re welcome.

    • DJames says:

      09:16am | 12/03/10

      Eric,

      If it’s my thanks and validation you crave, thankyou.  Next time you look at a map, I hope you think of me (and the others in my profession).  I, however, don’t require your thanks.  I merely contribute to a process, like all other Australian workers, in their respective fields.

      So thank you (and so many others) for your efforts with our water, teachers for your efforts with our children, doctors and nurses for your efforts with our health and to every individual doing something to contribute to society.  We are ALL significant.

      You have given me renewed impetus to continue in my field….I dread you becoming lost, unable to contribute your Ericness to this site.

    • maybe says:

      12:08pm | 12/03/10

      Paul Horn, I am a female I did an engineering degree.  My fiancee on the other hand did an arts degree.  I’m just saying, the shoe is sometimes ont he other foot.  I don’t think it has anything to do with wether or not a man or woman does it, we need nurses, people to look after the mentally ill and homeless, clean public toilets and so forth.

      I busted my guts doing an engineering degree so I could use my brain to make money.  some people don’t have that option and have to do physical work.  Why should a dishwasher repairman be able to charge $80 to just take a look at the thing for 10 minutes whereas a haridresser or barber charges half that for an hour or half an hour to cut your hair.  I’m pretty sure it would affect me more if all the people able to cut hair properly fell off the planet than if I had to wash a couple of dishes by hand everynow and then. Just saying.

    • Tim says:

      03:25pm | 12/03/10

      Maybe,
      that would be the market at work.
      The dishwasher repairman can charge that amount because thats what people are willing to pay.
      The hairdresser can charge what they do because thats what people are willing to pay.
      It may affect you more to not have a hairdresser but it obviously isnt the case for the vast majority of people.
      It has nothing to do with being male or female.

    • Eric says:

      07:02am | 16/03/10

      Maybe, you make my argument for me.

      If women want to earn more they should ditch their social work jobs and learn to fix dishwashers.

    • acker says:

      07:45am | 11/03/10

      I agree with you that the governments Federal, State and Local are relying on your generosity of spirit and social equity to make up part of your salary package. But are there too many people seeking this kind of socialy concious work and degrees ?

      Reply

    • John A Neve says:

      08:16am | 11/03/10

      Two comments;

      I fail to see how you can evaluate pay equity based on whether the industry is male or female dominated. Surely the skills required and demand for the role are of more importance?

      Further, if some one is well qualified and is dissatisfied with their pay and conditions, why don’t they just move on?

      Reply

    • marley says:

      09:29am | 11/03/10

      I remember a particular pay equity situation abroad which was based on the male-female thing.  The two occupations were the male-dominated historian group who worked in national archives, and the female-dominated librarian group who worked in national libraries - both groups had similar education levels (Masters’ degrees) and worked in similar conditions (fusty government buildings) - yet the male group was paid substantially more than the female group for work of broadly similar complexity and value.  The librarians won their case, and got hefty pay rises to bring them in line with the historians.

      So it is possible to compare some non-identical but broadly similar work groups, and come up with a degree of parity.  What isn’t possible is to compare the work of, say, a librarian, with the work of a fireman where, as you say, the skills required are very different.

      I’d be interested to know what group the community workers are seeking to compare themselves with, if any.  That to me would be the crux of the matter insofar as fairness and equity is concerned.

    • papachango says:

      11:55am | 11/03/10

      while marley does have a point, the new method of evaluating gender pay equity suggests to me that the feminists and unions couldn’t find any significant pay differences when doing an ‘apples for apples’ comparison, so they have decided to manufacture a grievance by doing an ‘apples and pears’ comparison instead.

    • Eric says:

      08:16am | 11/03/10

      Sorry for the above I’m just a misguided misogynist.I think we all know who really keeps the country running and that your work really does make a difference in the world.Most of us men would love to be able to work like a woman, with compassion, feeling and care.Onya Girl!

      Reply

    • bec says:

      08:41am | 11/03/10

      OMG, Bizarro-Eric! Does this one have a moustache and live in an alternate co-existing reality? ONLY TIME WILL TELL!!!

    • Tim says:

      09:12am | 11/03/10

      I wonder if a Bizarro bec will show up one day?
      That one won’t have a moustache.

    • steve says:

      11:35am | 11/03/10

      OMG Who are you and what have you done with the real ERIC!!!
      Seriously there is inequity all she is saying is people in this industry are under apid and she is right
      The Motherhood syndrome kicks in and they do even though they are underpaid,
      No man would swap with them

    • Eric says:

      05:59pm | 11/03/10

      I was wondering how long it would take for a fake “Eric” to show up. It’s something I’ve learned to expect on forums that don’t have any reliable means of identification.

      One of the problems with The Punch, and also one of the reasons I don’t use my real name, is that it’s very easy for dishonest people to post fake comments under someone else’s name.

    • bec says:

      08:03am | 12/03/10

      Tim, I like you and find it cute that you think you’re being outrageous and offensive. Ho ho ho, Bec must be manly because she makes fun of me. You’re about as original as bum-scented underpants.

    • Tim says:

      12:13pm | 12/03/10

      bum scented underpants?
      Sorry I don’t go around smelling underpants, but obviously your very familiar with them the way you follow Eric around like a little puppy.
      There there Bec, someone will care about what you think one day.

    • jamie says:

      09:10am | 11/03/10

      Most people change jobs if they don’t believe they are being paid enough. You claim to have three degrees so surely getting a higher paid job in another sector is not that difficult.

      Put simply, if you want to continue doing what you are doing then you will be paid accordingly. It’s up to you.

      Reply

    • Tane says:

      12:28pm | 16/03/10

      Actually, having three degrees is a symptom, not an advantage. One degree = practical. Two degrees = wide range of experience. Three degrees and working on a masters? She’s a career academic working in a soup kitchen. Why does she expect to be paid the same as someone who not only has commercially valuable skills and is actually prepared to use them for profit?

    • Tim says:

      09:12am | 11/03/10

      What a massive whinge.
      How many women go down and work in the sewers each day?  How many in mines?
      You do realise no-one is forced to do your work? If you don’t like your job and are sooooo educated then leave.
      The fact that you are working in a publically funded job pretty much tells the story. Public jobs have always been and always will be chronically underfunded. There are no profits to be made.
      Go out and get a real job in the private sector where profits are being made and then come and whinge if things don’t change.
      Fancy choosing a job with low pay and then whinging about how low you get paid. Sense of entitlement much?

      Reply

    • Jackie says:

      10:19am | 11/03/10

      And where would that leave all the families and communities that rely on these services?
      When women stand up for themselves they’re often dismissed as whingeing. This isn’t whingeing, it’s taking practical action to fix an unfair situation which will ultimately lead to too many people leaving the sector, at great cost to our society. People like Maree do such an important job and good on her for standing up for what she’s worth.

    • Tim says:

      10:40am | 11/03/10

      Jackie,
      It would probably leave the families and communities worse off.
      But the market obviously doesn’t value this kind of work. These people are getting paid what the market supports. Maybe if more people left the sector, then the demand for this work would increase and so would remuneration.
      You assume this is an unfair situation, why?
      The people working in these sectors are obviously getting some kind of payoff for doing it. They must get some enjoyment or satisfaction out of the work they do, otherwise why do it?
      Millions of people do work that they don’t like simply for the money. I would love to be able to a job that was more enjoyable but I know that I would not be able to get paid anywhere near the same amout of money if I did. You make your own decisions in life.

    • Jackie says:

      11:08am | 11/03/10

      Yes Tim, we do make our own decisions in life. And I think Maree’s decision to stand up and fight for a career and sector she’s passionate about is awesome! Good for her.

    • Toby says:

      12:33pm | 11/03/10

      Actually Tiny Tim, the representation of women in the mining game is rapidly approaching 40% and employers value them more highly than men in particular areas.  You have got your head in your ar$e there mate.

    • Tim says:

      12:41pm | 11/03/10

      Wow Toby,
      I like how you added to my name there. Really clever.
      I didn’t ask how many are in the mining industry, I asked how many go down into the mine. Maybe you should try reading first?
      I worked in the Industry and I know that the proportion is growing but is still small.
      And I’ve also worked with sewer workers. I can count on the one hand the amount of times i’ve met a female who’s worked in that environment..
      Who’s got their head in their arse again?

    • Toby says:

      02:42pm | 11/03/10

      Always glad to please.  You actually asked how many go down into sewers and gave no indication either way with mines but anyway.  Even just accounting blue collar jobs women still make up nearly 18% of the work force according to the minerals council of Australia.  I think anyone who can avoid working in a sh%t farm is clever.  I am sure women are smart enough not to want equality in that industry even if waste management does pay very well.

    • Paul Horn says:

      03:13pm | 11/03/10

      Hey Toby hope you got a big ar$e to fit your swollen big head! In fact that 18% figure you misquoted is a proportion of the total mining work force, not the no that actually work in the mines! GOT IT!  Check the site old boy!!  http://www.abc.net.au/rural/sa/content/2006/s1711848.htm.

      The actual number working down the mines would be closer to 1 to 2 percent if that!! Considering that mining companies own almost 50% of office accomodation within the Perth CBD there would be a hell of a lot of women enjoying cosy sexy desk jobs within the mining sector generally sorting mail, photcopying and other generally useless errands.

      So be a good boy and run along with your trap shut unless you can actually add something of fact to the conversation.

    • Toby says:

      03:37pm | 11/03/10

      Alright Paul, I concede the point but why so much anger.  Did a better skilled more polite woman take your job?  That’s OK you can always get a job in the sh&t farm with Tim.

      On another point, road ragers and abusive internet bloggers are gutless it makes me laugh.  I bet you don’t talk to people like that when you are face to face.

      P.S. I feel sorry for your wife considering how much you value her and my wife doesn’t even have a degree and she is worth twice as much as you.

    • Tim says:

      04:02pm | 11/03/10

      Toby says:
      “On another point, road ragers and abusive internet bloggers are gutless it makes me laugh.  I bet you don’t talk to people like that when you are face to face.”

      Tiny Tim,
      you have got your head in your arse,
      get a job in the shit farm with Tim,
      P.S. I feel sorry for your wife considering how much you value her and my wife doesn’t even have a degree and she is worth twice as much as you.

      You’re the model of civility aren’t you Toby? Maybe you should take a look in the mirror next time?
      Oh and don’t worry about me, running an engineering firm does have its perks.

    • Toby says:

      04:23pm | 11/03/10

      Not quite aggressive attacks threatening to punch peoples heads in now are they?

      Running an engineering firm can’t be that hard with all this spare time you have to comment on websites!

    • Paul Horn says:

      05:12pm | 11/03/10

      No anger Toby just fed up with halfwits talking crap. Any time you want to don the gloves and step inside the ring mate I’ll show you what a bit of face to face time is about.  Up for it??

    • Toby says:

      07:14pm | 11/03/10

      Why not?  How does 5:15pm sound?  That way I can catch the 5:17pm train.  Tell me where to meet and what you are wearing.  No gloves though, probably just head butt you with my big head, Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha.

    • Adam says:

      04:19pm | 12/03/10

      you idiots, you’re making me laugh

    • Sherlock says:

      09:31am | 11/03/10

      You’re right when you said that were the figures reversed, and 90% of us were men, our average income would be significantly higher.  Men wouldn’t simply sit around and whinge about the low pay or write articles about it.

      They would negotiate better pay and conditions and if that was unsuccessful they would go and find something with better pay.

      People will get what they are prepared to accept. You’re obviously prepared to accept all the bad things about your job including poor pay. The day that you decide that you’re no longer prepared to accept it is the day things will start to change.

      Reply

    • Mary says:

      04:11pm | 11/03/10

      The real issue is about what sort of society we live in. Do we want vulnerable people well supported to be contributing citizens? Do we want women and children to have safety from domestic violence? Do we want people with a disability to be cared for with dignity and respect The we should pay proper wages.
      Community services work, run by managed by community committees and employing a largely female workforce is very poorly paid. The same work, when done by government employees is paid 20% more. That isn’t fair!

    • Peter says:

      11:17pm | 15/03/10

      I’m not that well travelled Mary, but I think sadly you hit the nail on the head. I don’t think the majority of rich care greatly for the poor or the able for the disabled. There is little empathy for those who suffer. Surely if all these people here who dismiss the ‘market’ value of this community work needed help then they might not be so dismissive of the true value.

      The scary thing is that Tony Abbot a potential leader of this country won’t commit to a target for reducing homelessness because he doesn’t want to be scorned if he can’t reach it… maybe if it was as important to protect community value as economic value in this country then we would see some more support. If community care was as much a powerful drive in a human as success and grandeur, then I’m sure Mr. Abbot would be comfortable enough to just give it his best knowing that we’d all understand if he didn’t get all the way there.

    • Nathaniel says:

      09:36am | 11/03/10

      In response to Eric: What a load of sexist garbage. I’m a male and am disgusted to have any association to you and your views.

      I know females who work as electricians and males who work in child care.

      There is no which way about it, females do have a valid reason to be disputing their wage entitlements.

      Good article Maree.

      Reply

    • Eric says:

      06:00pm | 11/03/10

      Be assured the disgust is mutual.

      I might have been sympathetic to a call for more money for social workers, but as soon as this article turned into a male-bashing gender war, I became opposed.

      Could be a lesson there.

    • Lynne says:

      09:51am | 11/03/10

      Thank you Maree. I work in the community sector too; and we are all there with you. We don’t want the charity of salary packaging. We are not charity workers. We are professionals with expertise equivalent to other professionals in the health and social science sectors. A friend of mine is a social worker who works at providing support to homeless families with complex issues. Last week she provided support to a Sudanese family, who are homeless, whose son recently attempted suicide. With a mortgage and her daughter considering tertiary study next year, she has no choice but to leave the community sector and seek a government job. When she leaves her experience, skill and mentorship will go with her and its likely her job will not be filled for some months. Yes, this is a pay equity case. There are 16 men in our workplace of more than 300 women. Do you know where 12 of those 16 men work? – in our corporate services.

      Reply

    • Jane says:

      10:47am | 11/03/10

      Lynne, the work you and others do in the community is worth much, much more than what you are paid. If these services were not around I would hate to think what would happen.

    • John S says:

      11:21am | 11/03/10

      If these services were not available then the ‘customers’ would have to provide for themselves - a bit like the rest of us! Seriously people do what they have to. If you get something for free, why work for it? Services like this do not solve the problems they proport to address, they merely hide the symptoms. We’ve had generations of welfare - yet the poor are still here!

    • Nathan says:

      01:39pm | 11/03/10

      If this friend of yours is worth so much more, this will rapidly become apparent to her former employer. Her former employer will immediately ring her up and offer her obscene ammounts of money, now that they have realised just how much she is ‘worth’. No need for a pay equity case. We’ll see if the former boss agrees that she’s worth more, shall we?

    • Andrew says:

      03:26pm | 11/03/10

      Nathan, that isn’t likely to happen when the organisation in question probably has had fixed funding for the last 6 years, despite a steady increase in

      It isn’t that the employers or market don’t want to pay these employees adequately - it is that they can’t because the government doesn’t follow through with funding and support. When the government lifts their game and does the right thing, rather than just increasing the salaries of politicians and useless public servants, people like Lynne’s friend will get the pay rise they are worth.

      This is what this issue is about.

    • Eric says:

      06:04pm | 11/03/10

      Boo hoo.

      If you didn’t try to make this into a man-bashing argument, I might have some sympathy for you. But if you attack men, I’ll fight back.

    • CJ says:

      10:13am | 11/03/10

      It makes me quite ashamed to think that i work in the professional sector, and the work i do is no where near as important as the work someone like Maree does. Unfortunately society doesn’t consider roles like social workers, aged carers and teacher’s aides to be worth much, and relies on the good will and dedication of the women who do these jobs. And yes I’m sure someone like Maree could just go and “get another job” if she wanted to. But seriously. Women should not have to do that just to be better paid. What would happen to all her experience and expertise? We complain there are too many young uni grads doing work in DOCS etc, but when you consider the wages someone with 25 years experience gets…..you can see why there are young, inexperienced people in these roles.

      Reply

    • John Sanger says:

      11:16am | 11/03/10

      CJ you need to look at the whole picture. For this lady to be paid another dollar means that someone else has to provide it. As you say “people should not have to do that” if they think the end result is not important. I’ve deliberately taken your words out of context to illustrate the point. If you want this lady to get more money then you, and people of similar opinions, should contribute it. Have the courage of your convictions, don’t force other people to pay for your compassion. This is unjust. However, I suspect like most people in our society you want world class services, as long as someone else picks up the bill!

    • CJ says:

      11:56am | 11/03/10

      John Sanger, maybe we should all pay higher taxes then? I’d be happy to if it meant world class services.

    • Dave says:

      01:52pm | 11/03/10

      You make an interesting point CJ, but we’re already one of the highest taxing nations in the world, and I’d hardly call our services ‘world class’. Comfortable yes, but by no means world class. I’d suggest that the government have shown they’re unable to provide efficient, excellent services, regardless of how much of our earnings we gave them.

    • Nathan says:

      01:55pm | 11/03/10

      CJ says:“maybe we should all pay higher taxes then? I’d be happy to if it meant world class services. ”

      Most organisations providing these community services are NGOs. They get the lion’s share of their money from the government, and make up the rest with private contributions. Rather than be so generous as to volunteer other people’s money, why don’t you just dig into your own hip pocket and donate to these NGOs?

      A pay equity claim forces one of two things to happen:
      1) Everyone would pay more taxes; or
      2) Vulnerable people recieve less services due to the same funding and higher wages for Maree.

      Alternately, if everyone who think’s Maree deserves more pay dug into their own pockets and gave cash to these NGOs, one of two things would happen:

      1) Maree could have more of lifes luxuries, and feel better about herself
      2) Maree would get paid the same, but more vulnerable people would be helped.

      The second scenario is win-win and voluntary. In the first, someone must have less of something (money or services), and both groups who stand to lose would have no say in the matter.

      Here is a list for those giving souls like CJ.
      http://www.wango.org/resources.aspx?section=ngodir&sub=region&regionID=9&col=2586BA

    • Anna C says:

      10:49am | 11/03/10

      Good on you Maree.  I work for a charity and am paid less than someone doing the same job but in the private sector. I took this job because I wanted to help people but why should I be penalised for it?  I have to pay my bills just like everyone else.

      Reply

    • Salec says:

      11:25am | 11/03/10

      You should be penalised becuase it what you chose to do. It’s called a choice because there are pros and cons with each, if it were the same it wouldn’t be a choice. I would love to be doing something else more fulfilling. But I can’t afford to, so I made the CHOICE to do the job I like less, that pays more. If you want more money,g o to the private sector, if you want to be fulfilled, work in a charity and earn less. In life, you can’t have everything, and I am sick of people thinking they can.

    • Budz says:

      11:37am | 11/03/10

      Anna, do you reckon it could be because your employer (the charity) would rather spend the money on helping the needy that filling your pockets?

      Make sure you use your salary sacrifice benefits that you are entitled to!

    • Anna C says:

      10:47am | 11/03/10

      Good on you Maree.  I work for a charity and am paid less than someone doing the same job but in the private sector. I took this job because I wanted to help people but why should I be penalised for it?  I have to pay my bills just like everyone else.

      Reply

    • Tom says:

      11:50am | 11/03/10

      Anna, your sanctimonious, feel-good glow is a perk of office. If you want more money, get some work that pays more.

    • AdamC says:

      10:56am | 11/03/10

      I get that you want more money, Maree, so does everyone. But isn’t the feminist angle just transparent spin? What has being a woman got to do with it? And, surely you must have known what you were getting yourself into, given the extent of the training you have completed. One imagines you and your many highly-educated colleagues didn’t just fall into the job!
      There is another side to this campaign as well. Most of the community sector is paid for by government grants. Is there more funding in the offing, or do you propose these higher salaries be paid for by cutting programmes?

      Reply

    • Front Row says:

      08:14pm | 16/03/10

      Has anybody mentioned the massive taxation benefits those in the “community sector” enjoy?

    • Budz says:

      11:35am | 11/03/10

      Supply and demand?? Hello? That is generally what determines the average salary in a specific industry. My mate that earns good money running a training organisation wants to go back to teaching so he can get home at 3.30PM again and have his school holidays back!

      If you don’t like your pay in your industry, change industries. You surely knew what the pay was like when you joined the industry? It’s like becoming a doctor and complaining that I have to deal with blood every day.

      Maree, can I assume your 3 degrees are social work, arts and communications?

      Reply

    • Lauren says:

      01:50pm | 11/03/10

      Budz. Wow. Can I assume that you haven’t got a degree in economics?

      Let’s just indulge your flawed view on how wages are determined, indeed how we should quantify the value of community service workers.

      Let me get this right there is either too little demand from ‘consumers’ (homeless youth, victims of domestic violence, members of our community with a disability) or an over supply of community workers?

      Me thinks that you don’t get out much.

      Perhaps the reason your model might fall flat Budz is that those who increasingly ‘demand’ services can’t afford to pay for them and hence the need for increasing government funding.

      Final thought- if you don’t like being part of a society that believes in supporting the community service sector-that believes in equality- change societies.

    • Tom says:

      02:04pm | 11/03/10

      Budz isn’t the one whining Lauren. You are. If you don’t like the value the society places on your skills - change societies.

    • Budz says:

      02:40pm | 11/03/10

      The too little demand here is from the Government, not the people that actually need the services. If you want more funds spent on community workers, then speak to the Government and ask for more funding. The Government should in theory be spending our tax dollars on what we want as a collective. If you don’t like it, do your bit to make a positive change or leave.

      Is there an over supply of community workers?Taking a guess, if there was a shortage, the Government would either have to pay more to attract people into the field or risk being understaffed.

      And if you want increased Government funding, where are you going to get it from? Either increase taxes or take it from another area.

      And I do believe in helping the community service sector, and also helping others that need and want help. But going into an industry that is known for paying poorly, working there for years, and then complaining about it sounds a bit stupid to me.

    • Lauren says:

      04:33pm | 11/03/10

      Tom.

      You are absolutely right- I want to change societies- our society. I want a society that acknowledges the work of its community sector. I want a society that values those who provide essential care and support for the countless silent thousands. I don’t think I want to be in your society though- where engaging in debate is viewed as whining.

      Budz.

      I like your thinking- I would support moving government funds from say the defence budget. Maybe a truly progressive taxation system? 

      If you truly “believe in helping the community service sector, and also helping others that need and want help” then you should support Maree- not berate her for trying to improve the sector.

      Community workers- who love their jobs- who are passionate about the work they do and the people they work with- are asking for equal pay. If you think that asking for fairness and equality is complaining- then maybe I don’t want to be part of your society either?

    • Helen says:

      05:43pm | 11/03/10

      Hmmm, your mate must have left teaching a long time ago, or else he was one of those that is not a terrific teacher and does not have any commitment to the training of young minds.  My daughter is a student primary teacher, and while on placements she stays for all the after school meetings and planning sessions for the next days lessons (or the next wqeek, next unit or next term- not to mention planning for the INDIVIDUAL learning needs of 27 different children, catering to different levels and interests, and then dealing with parents who are always sure that their child isnt being pushed hard enough, acknowledged enough, given enough “help”.... yes definitely easy work….). She very rarely gets home before 5.00pm.  I cant wait till next year when she is in the paid workforce and had to bring corrections home with her. There are many teachers who will attest that to get to bed before midnight is a miracle.

    • Tom says:

      08:43pm | 11/03/10

      Lauren, we all want “fairer”, “better”, “cleaner”, “richer”, “faster” blah, blah, blah. Its just that Budz doesn’t think paying social workers five times what they are worth is fair. ... For that matter nor do I. Please stop chanting your sad slogans and listen to Budz.

    • Tilda says:

      12:45pm | 11/03/10

      I’m amazed there is such vitriol.
      Thanks to you men out there giving us community workers such GREAT careers advice!
      I fully support people (not just men) in dangerous jobs getting the highest wages (not that they often do). I salute the miners getting their hundreds of thousands for the work they do

      But we are talking about professionals getting $15 -20K less than the average wage in Australia

      I have been doing crucial community work with people who are disadvantaged and just like us all
      (ie: your sister who has a mental illness, your cousin who has a disability, your father who drinks too much, and the homeless family someone kicked out of their investment property because they wanted to hike up the rent) and communities that need assistance for ten years.

      I still believe its vital work, but cannot afford to stay in the sector any more.

      As people like me (experienced and qualified) leave, the jobs in the sector are being deskilled:
      Some become volunteer roles (would you rather having a skilled counsellor taking your crisis/suicidal helpline calls or a volunteer?)
      Some just get downgraded because the organisation cannot afford to pay the market rates (are you guys above happy to have a school leaver looking after your brother who’s recovering from a psychotic episode?)

      This is an industry that touches the lives of most, if not all Australians

      The people working in this field are doing it because they want to make a difference to society and because they believe we can be a society that actually cares for its vulnerable - they just would also like to pay their rent, HECs debts and food bills as well.

      Reply

    • Tom says:

      05:55pm | 11/03/10

      Tilda, it’s called reality. You feminists have so long enjoyed the taxpayer funded groupthink that you haven’t ever noticed your monoculture. Men compete in the job market without the plethora of laws giving them a leg up. When a women misses out, she blames the glass ceiling or something. When a bloke misses out he has to confront reality that he ain’t good enough. That qualifies men to advise you on the real world, ... we live in it.

      Everyone has HECS debts and bills not just whining social workers.

      Many people are starting to suspect that social workers with fairy floss and tinkerbell solutions actually exacerbate the problem of the people they hold out to help.

      Just as a final thought, social workers are dependent on a good supply of disfunctional people. It makes sense for them not to help.

    • Eric says:

      06:10pm | 11/03/10

      Thanks to you feminists blaming us men for all of your problems.

      Let me try to put this in simple terms.

      If you turn an issue into a gender war, it will become a gender war. If there is a gender war, eventually the other gender might fight back.

      If you don’t want vitriol, don’t start out by hating on men.

    • Paul Horn says:

      08:18pm | 11/03/10

      Hurrah Hurrah for Tom!!! You know Tilda I have two people in my family that are on full disability benefits!!! One is a drug addict and the other an alcoholic. The alcoholic has been on full benefits for nearly 20 years I think, she has been an alcoholic for over 30 years. What infuriates me Tilda is that she attends these “rehabilitation” sessions and then walks out!!! She has a fully funded unit in a nice area, foxtel, and meals delivered by meals on wheels not to mention all the expensive drug treatments to keep her alive. WHY???  Now you tell me after all these years don’t I as a taxpayer have an expectation that this woman will have a reciprocal obligation to sober up and become a contributing member of society. But the elite say NO!!!!

      Hows this as a nasty horrible right wing masculine thinking patriarchical oppressor, I will support higher pay for you mental health types if you will make a commitment to successfully reducing the number of people on full disabIlity pensions for drug and alcohol problems by 30% within a five year time frame resulting in them becoming sober working contributing members of society. In fact I will happily pay you anything if you can achieve that. That is the way it works in private industry. You want higher pay then achieve better KPI’s, that is become a more profitabe worker for the company.

      Why is it that all I ever hear about is screaming and shouting for more funding by the mental health crowd but no reciprocal committment to reducing the numbers of people scunging off the system by a set percentage????  You bang on about how you provide all this support and help but don’t tell us how many peoples lives you have turned around. Why is it that the problems are getting worse when funding has been increasing over the years???

      Another mate of mine has never worked in his life as he has a hatred of his father!!! He is fit, has no drug or alcohol issues and been living off the system for over 20 years. He visits the psychiatrist who puts him on more medication and with a nudge nudge wink wink increases his sickness benefits by two years!!! How the hell can the system allow this corruption. In all the years I have known him he has never ever improved. And you want to know the real reason! Well I’ll tell you anyway it’s because he has never been forced to get out and work and interact with people on a productive basis. His hermit lifestyle encouraged and supported by the system and your activist crowd has compounded his psychosis!! The sad reality is that as he gets older and takes stock of his life and his situation his depression will worsen as he will have achieved very little. He will have no family,  few friends and only a corrupt mental health system that has aided and abetted his problems. The same system that then turns around and screams and shouts for ever greating funding. Lets face it Tilda you belong to a system that actively encourages bad mental health!!!  It’s a disgrace!

    • Leanne says:

      12:47pm | 11/03/10

      I bet if the blokes were on the other side of the gender pay gap there’d be plenty of complaining going on.

      What an enlightening debate so far. Commencing with Eric’s chest thumping “if you want to be paid like a man, work like a man”, followed up by his patronising “go girl”.

      And keep those simple solutions coming people “if you don’t like it, get another job”. Gee, I bet Maree never thought of that one.

      There are 200,000 community workers represented in this case, but guess what, they’re not the only workers affected by the gender pay gap.

      The gap is 17% nationally, covering all occupations. When you break it down to specific industries or occupational groups, higher figures emerge. The gap in the finance sector, for example, is 28%!

      It’s not just about finding your way to a job that pays you a decent wage. The problem is that we don’t place a high enough value on some occupations, and invariably, those occupations are the ones that attract mainly women workers, or have traditionally been available to women.

      To use the finance example again, the sales roles which are predominantly filled by male workers, are more highly valued over the service roles which are predominantly filled by female workers. Putting a higher value on sales over service has contributed to the gap in that industry. There are plenty of other reasons the gender pay gap exists. It is complex, and there isn’t an easy fix. But ignoring it won’t fix it either.

      I’m looking forward to more genuinely thoughtful posts on the issue as opposed to repeated charges of feminist whinging. And popping off now to send my Kiss to Julia!

      Reply

    • Tim says:

      01:31pm | 11/03/10

      Can you give one example where men and women doing exactly the same job under an award or enterprise agreement are getting paid differently? No?
      To take your finance example. What brings money into the company, sales or service? Which is more valuable?
      What’s stopping women from entering sales?

      Why are some jobs valued higher than others?
      Um i’ll take a wild stab in the dark here but could it be because they are more valuable?

      There is nothing stopping women entering the higher paying jobs except their own choices.

    • Anton says:

      02:37pm | 11/03/10

      A job is worth what someone is prepared to pay for it - WITH THEIR OWN MONEY. That is the definition of market value. People get paid what their job is worth - in the private sector.

      In the government sector people are overpaid, because the government is using other peoples money. If they were being underpaid they would leave.

      Charaties should exist only on voluntary contributions from the private sector. How can a government know if I place more importance on helping the homeless or finding a cure for AIDS. Every additional dollar to one charity is a dollar less into another. The bucket of money is not infinite.

    • Sharon says:

      05:08pm | 11/03/10

      Tim your question: which is more valuable, Sales or Service?
      My answer - both hold the same value. Without sales, no clients, no need of service. With out sevice you would have no clients, you could “sell them” but with no service you would not keep them.

    • Eric says:

      06:12pm | 11/03/10

      Leanne’s man-hating attitude is the cause of the problem here.

      If people like Maree just argued about the merits of social work, there wouldn’t be such conflict.

      But feminists just had to turn this issue into a misandrist, it’s all-men’s-fault thing.

      And this is the result.

      Stop being sexist, girls!

    • Punita says:

      11:55am | 12/03/10

      Eric, you are full of foolish bile and a battleground attitude but do you not understand the legal arguments regarding the feminised workforce we speak of?  Maybe its beyond you and you just want to rave at women…  Lets try to leave the battle of the sexes back in the 50’s where it belongs and address current social issues, eh? 

      Well done Maree and all other community workers for getting together and saying “we are worth it”... of course you are and pay equity is just around the corner despite the foolish…

      GO ASU!!!

    • Eric says:

      06:32pm | 12/03/10

      Punita, I understand the issues very well indeed.

      That is why I do my best to expose the fundamental sexism behind this campaign.

    • Nathan says:

      01:18pm | 11/03/10

      Engineers and Stock Brokers get paid what they do for a number of weird and complicated economic reasons; none of which involve an annual penis-bonus.

      Most of your funding comes from the public purse (us readers), and governments (rightly) try to stretch each dollar as far as humanly possible. This does not mean paying you what you think you’re worth, but exactly what is required to keep you in the job and not one cent more. Just because Karl Marx and Germaine Greer say you’ve been hard done by, doesn’t make it so.

      Reply

    • JW says:

      01:41pm | 11/03/10

      Community workers earn significantly less than others paid from the public purse - teachers, nurses, government officials, let alone politicians. No-one working in the public sector expects to get rich (well, most don’t - maybe a few at the top of the bureaucracy) but the community sector seems to have fallen way behind the eight-ball, well behind other public service workers and it’s not right.

    • Nathan says:

      02:40pm | 11/03/10

      JW: you are quite right about the comparison to other government funded sectors. There is a market reasoning to it however, and right or wrong doesn’t come into it. The ‘market value’ of a public sector is measured in votes. If you were to take the scenario where an Australian government were to allow their counselling services for newly arrived immigrants to collapse in on itself. Would that change a government? Probably not. Suppose that this same government let the health or education systems collapse; that would sink the government for sure.

      We can conclude therefore, that in terms of political capital, social work is not as highly prized as education or health, and consequently is not as highly priced.  When voters demand more funding for social work, when the supply of skilled social workers becomes exhausted, and funding still remains; then, and only then will salaries increase. The sexism arguement gets my goat because it’s just lazy and highly illogical.

      Any ruling that Fair Work Australia make, will essentially undermine parliamentary and voter ‘valuations’, and will no doubt have dire consequences to the sector as a whole. The voters are unlikely to change their minds about the funding that this sector should receive (sad, but true). If FWA manage to find a comparable sector (good luck to them) and rule to increase the mandatory wage of these workers, then services to some of this nation’s most vulnerable people MUST be cut back. It’s no good wishing the voters cared more, because the cold hard fact is they don’t. Maree’s claim would in effect, enrich herself to the detriment of her clients. Fair Work Australia have to be really careful that their benvolent rulings don’t have malevolent consequences.

    • Jane the elder says:

      01:19pm | 11/03/10

      Charity - the new growth industry from which one can earn a VERY healthy salary.

      Unemployment - another fantastic growth industry in which fortunes can, and have been made.

      Social work - the government pre-empting the roles of families, whilst working on breaking down the family unit.

      Social work - a not particularly efficacious or efficient government response to decimating mental health facilities, dumbing down education and creating generations of the unemployed.

      Reply

    • tilda says:

      02:00pm | 11/03/10

      Jane,
      sure people have made fortunes out of those less fortunate, but i can assure you it is not the 200000 community workers in question

    • Roxana says:

      01:42pm | 11/03/10

      Tim and John S,
      Yes, you’re right the market doesn’t value community welfare work. The market doesn’t value many things - it is blind to everything except money.
      I am certainly thankful that we don’t live in a purely market-driven society.
      Do you want to live in a society where:
      - a homeless person with no income should pay a market rate for all the services they might need to survive with dignity.
      - a family in crisis should not be able to access support services unless they can pay.
      - people without mobility should rot in their own faeces if they cannot afford private care?
      Yes, taxes do and should pay for community (and government) services. They are a safeguard for those who need them, and for all of us.
      For example, Homelessness Australia produce some interesting examples of just how easy and quickly someone can go from having a “normal” life to being homeless.

      Reply

    • Al says:

      04:48pm | 11/03/10

      Put simply - yes I do, provided the state keeps its fingers out of my pocket.

    • Eric says:

      06:15pm | 11/03/10

      Now this is an intelligent comment.

      For one thing, it doesn’t try to reduce the issue to “men bad, women good”.

      Great stuff, Roxana!

      Social workers are important, and they might be underpaid. I would certainly support an equitable solution to this problem, though at the moment I don’t know what form that could take.

    • Steve says:

      02:10pm | 11/03/10

      It’s guess the gender who’s more successful game! That’s right folks, here’s your chance to win the gender war but applying this simple equation: Women = lives valued more than men because they gestate. Men = expendable because they can’t gestate. So can you guess which gender is more successful and receives the higher salaries??? Hint: It was the case 100 years ago, still the case today and will be likewise 100 years hence! All that needs to change is for women to get off that proverbial self preserving fence and into the dirty, life and lifestyle depriving world at large in the places of war and work. Ah well, not a bad attempt at equality this time around gals, but you still insist on hiding behind boys to men since you want to “keep your cake while only taking the cream of his”. Cows!!!

      Reply

    • Saffron says:

      03:07pm | 11/03/10

      No more pay disputes, ever!
      Everyone across the board gets the same dollars per hour regardless of the work. We need garbage collectors or the streets would be a haven for disease and death. We need brain surgeons or people would die that could have been cured. no-one would have to do a job they didn’t like so there would be work integrity. There would be no ‘haves’ and ‘have-nots’ because everyone is being paid depending on the hours they work. People who want to spend time studying it is agreed (hopefully) they are doing so beacause that is what they are happy doing.
      We would still have our politicians, garbage collectors, Drs, community workers, plumbers, etc etc etc but people would be doing it for the work and not the money!
      What would society look like?
      Take the money/wages factor totally out of the picture.
      Would that make you happy? if not why not?

    • tilda says:

      03:45pm | 11/03/10

      did you REALLY just call all women COWS??

    • Al says:

      04:57pm | 11/03/10

      Saffron - I will tell you why it wouldn’t make me happy - because I wouldn’t be rewarded for doing a good job.

      The fundamental flaw in your approach is that not only are there no rewards for success and there is no punishment for failure.

      If there is no punishment for failure there is no incentive to do ones job properly and most people will take the path of least resistance and not do their job properly or efficiently. This will result in an ever shrinking pool of goods to be distributed and lead to shortages.

      Equally skill and initative will not be rewarded resulting in a disincentive to work hard or be inventive which will see stagnation in the economy.

      In short everyone’s lot would become worse - hence the failure of socialism.

      Reducing people to the lowest common denominator never achieves optimal results, it is the opportunity to succeed (financially or otherwise)which motivates.

      The market may not be perfect but it is the best method of allocating resources that we have.

    • Andrew says:

      07:21pm | 11/03/10

      Steve I think you need some help mate. Maybe lifeline or another community service, that is a seriously worrying post you put up today. It adds nothing to the debate except hate for women and all the people working in the community care sector…Sad.

    • Simone says:

      03:03pm | 11/03/10

      Maree (and all the other Community Service Sector workers out there),

      Thank you for your hard work and dedication to the people in our society who need you most. And thank you for being part of your Union and getting active to fight for equal pay!

      Community workers deserve Equal Pay, and they deserve having their work acknowledged and respected by the broader community. You all are the invisible glue that holds us together as a society.

      The community needs women, we need community workers, and we need to support them in their fight for equal pay.

      Reply

    • Eric says:

      06:31pm | 12/03/10

      The community needs men too.

      Why did you leave that out?

      As long as you continue to ignore men, don’t be surprised if men ignore you.

    • Simone says:

      03:12pm | 11/03/10

      Maree and all the community workers out there;

      Thank you.

      Thank you for supporting our community. Thankyou for dedicating your lives to helping others and showing that people are more valuable than dollars.

      And thank you for being the Union, and for standing up and having the guts to ask for more funding, support and respect.

      The work you do holds our whole community together, and in standing up for yourselves, you are standing up for all workers, all women and all community members everywhere.

      You are trully inspiring, and i feel lucky to be able to support you all in the fight for funding.

      You aren’t asking for much; only what is right and fair and just.

      And you should be applauded.

      Thank you.

      Reply

    • tilda says:

      03:13pm | 11/03/10

      I’m gobsmacked how angry some of you blokes seem to be about this.


      And for those that asked - YES there is A MASSIVE worker shortage in this industry.
      skilled professionals are leaving in droves because they cannot afford to work in it any longer and they are being replaced by new grads (OR Volunteers) because that is what the organisation can afford, it is NOT what is best for the clients. Then the newer worker get stressed out and leaves and you’re back where you started.

      The question is not where these workers can get other work, because of course they can, but what will happen to our societies as the NFPs and charities all close their doors??

      who do you think coordinates all the fabulous voluntary effort when their are disasters?

      Who are the people that run the centres that teach newly arrived and refugees English?

      And what will it be like when all the homeless people currently being supported and housed by services are on the streets?

      what about who will support women and children escaping family violence?

      Community workers touch all our lives.

      Reply

    • Eric says:

      06:18pm | 11/03/10

      Why are you gobsmacked?

      This whole article was all about hating men and blaming them for all problems.

      Why did you think men wouldn’t react?

    • Punita says:

      11:45am | 12/03/10

      Great to see the discussion is soo broad… men (whom we can only assume are short of stature and tiny of penis) interpreting anything pro - women’s advancement as MAN HATING.  Original.  Incisive.  Deep.  Most of these 100 or so posts are men ranting about their defensive and warped perceptions ...
      Give it a break boys, hands on the table.  Maybe you could vent your spleen in a car racing forum… or cage wrestling… or Neanderthal man 101.  Gladly, the men i know and associate with are not as insecure (read TINY) as you and far from hating them i love them to bits.
      COMMUNITY WORKERS NEED PAY EQUITY.  FULLSTOP.

    • Silvia says:

      03:39pm | 11/03/10

      Wow such anger. Those of you airing your misplaced hostilities might want to do a bit of research on the sector you are so disparaging about. The Productivity Commission’s recent report on the contribution of the nonprofit sector in Australia might be a good place to start.

      You will learn, for example, that the sector contributed $43 billion to Australia’s GDP, and 8 per cent of employment in 2006-07. 

      You might want to reflect on the kind of society you would live in without a strong community sector where workers are paid what they are worth.

      You might want to do the above, but I doubt you will. I suspect your understanding of the sector comes from the occasional article in the mainstream media, and not from your personal experience.

      Knee jerk, simplistic views carrying little reflection are so much easier to come up with, no?

      Reply

    • James1 says:

      04:35pm | 11/03/10

      According to people involved in business, no one else has any right to earn money except “productive” people.  To them, the rest of us are either worthless, or simply marks, with full pockets that need to be emptied.  I get that all the time in the university sector, where amongst other things, I teach their children how to think.  But, apparently, because we do not buy a product at one price and sell it for another, we contribute nothing to society.

    • Al says:

      05:02pm | 11/03/10

      They didn’t actually contribute $43B to our GDP because they didn’t create the wealth - they just spent it.

    • Eric says:

      06:20pm | 11/03/10

      If you stop hating men and blaming us for every bad thing, you might get a better reaction.

      Until then, *%*((* you!

    • Silvia says:

      02:13pm | 12/03/10

      Well thanks for the enlightened and friendly comment Eric. I don’t see where I blamed anyone but hey, have a great weekend smile

    • Eric says:

      06:33pm | 12/03/10

      Silvia, your reference to “those of you airing your misplaced hostilities” was obviously meant to target those men who were offended by the sexism of the original article.

    • Silvia says:

      03:59pm | 14/03/10

      Umm…no, Eric, that was your interpretation. Which is OK. But please don’t put words in my mouth. When I say “those of you” I mean just that; I don’t care what gender you are.

    • julain thomas says:

      04:12pm | 11/03/10

      “Next International Women’s Day all women should go on strike “. yeah like “next” time, I have seen women “working”

      Reply

    • Catherine says:

      06:00pm | 11/03/10

      Community workers aren’t public servants - they aren’t directly paid or employed by the government. The vast majority of organisations (employers) these people work for *want* to pay higher wages. The problem is, they’re government funded at the award (minimum) rates of pay. The government essentially outsources this work very cheaply, and does so by exploiting the dedication of the people who work in this sector. The same dedication that Maree says doesn’t pay her electricity bill.

      By comparison, think about massive government-funded infrastructure projects. Do you think the engineers (for example) working for private companies that tender for Government work are getting paid at minimum wages, or at market rates? Their salaries are also coming out of our tax-paying pockets, but just because something is government funded does not make it fair, or acceptable to pay any worker less than a fair and equitable wage. We want the best people working for Australia, whether their building our roads or building our communities.

      This isn’t “whinging” - this is people (predominantly women) who work in this sector standing up and saying that the work we do is important and that we’re going to do something about the wages we get paid. This is Community Sector workers doing something to get properly and fairly paid for the vital (and often invisible) work that they do that saves lives, saves families, and saves us tax dollars. They, like any other worker in any other industry, deserve a fair day’s pay for a fair day’s work.

      And good luck to them.

      Reply

    • Catherine says:

      05:58pm | 11/03/10

      Community workers aren’t public servants - they aren’t directly paid or employed by the government. The vast majority of organisations (employers) these people work for *want* to pay higher wages. The problem is, they’re government funded at the award (minimum) rates of pay. The government essentially outsources this work very cheaply, and does so by exploiting the dedication of the people who work in this sector. The same dedication that Maree says doesn’t pay her electricity bill.

      By comparison, think about massive government-funded infrastructure projects. Do you think the engineers (for example) working for private companies that tender for Government work are getting paid at minimum wages, or at market rates? Their salaries are also coming out of our tax-paying pockets, but just because something is government funded does not make it fair, or acceptable to pay any worker less than a fair and equitable wage. We want the best people working for Australia, whether their building our roads or building our communities.

      This isn’t “whinging” - this is people (predominantly women) who work in this sector standing up and saying that the work we do is important and that we’re going to do something about the wages we get paid. This is Community Sector workers doing something to get properly and fairly paid for the vital (and often invisible) work that they do that saves lives, saves families, and saves us tax dollars. They, like any other worker in any other industry, deserve a fair day’s pay for a fair day’s work.

      And good luck to them.

      Reply

    • Nathan says:

      03:00pm | 12/03/10

      Let’s run some numbers. In the latest federal budget, $315m was allocated to Services and support for people with a disability. For simplicity, lets assume no capital costs and a socialistic workforce, all earning $45k.

      Funding   $315,000,000
      Salary per FTE   $45,000
      Number of FTE   7,000
      Hours of social work   266,000

      After 17% “gender equitable” salary increase:

      Funding   $315,000,000
      (note how this number cannot be changed through Fair Work Australia)
      Salary per FTE   $52,650
      Number of FTE   5,983
      Hours of social work   227,350

      Given NGO’s aren’t sitting on a pile of cash, what will happen is 17% of staff will have to be laid off and 17% less hours of social work will be provided. That is, of course unless everyone will become 17% more productive as suddenly as the FWA ruling can be enacted. That would mean though, that right now, they’re running at 83% efficiency. That’s not much chop for people with 3 degrees.

      By contrast, let’s look at the engineering profession (only 1 degree required) and you’ll see totally different calculations at play.

      Project Cost   $315,000,000.00
      excellent engineer (as lead)  -$400,000.00
      All other costs   -$310,000,000.00
      Savings through engineering   $1,000,000.00
      Profit   $5,600,000.00

      With a top engineer:
      Project Cost   $315,000,000.00
      excellent engineer (as lead)  -$400,000.00
      All other costs   -$310,000,000.00
      Savings through engineering   $5,000,000.00
      Profit   $9,600,000.00

      Here we see the top engineer saved more money than he cost, therefore he got more money than the ordinary guy. Marees proposal is not for a competitive labour market like engineering, but for an industry labour market. In the engineering example, the good engineer and the shareholders win. They taxpayer doesn’t care and the ordinary engineer loses out on the big bucks. In the disability example, the tax payers get less for their money, NGOs cut back services and clients lose out. Yeah, what a brilliant idea!

    • former snag, charity, disability worker & still ti says:

      06:07pm | 11/03/10

      Dear “social talkers”, some simple questions for you.

      1, Have any MEN, applying for jobs, or promotion, in the industry, with equal or better, quals & experience ever been overlooked, in favour of a women?

      2, Have any MEN in the industry been bullied, by a team of “workplace psychopaths” for not displaying an appropriate level of “male hatred”, until they leave or burn out?

      3, Have any MALE, front line, social workers left the industry “in disgust” because FEMALE, “foremen” stopped them from protecting a child, who was subsequently raped/abused?

      4, Was the industry “privatised” by conservative, governments or loony, left governments?

      5, Were their any senior, FEMALE politicians & bureaucrats involved in making these decisions?

      6, If more than, 90% of homeless people, are, MEN, why are 90% of the social workers “relating” to them WOMEN?

      7, Is this “good service” to the “clientele” & therefore deserving of more pay?

      8, Is there a, “mysocialworker.com.au” web site, where i can see if anything, they have ever done, for 40 years now, has ever worked, or if DV, etc is worsening as a result of their misandry?

      9, Do any of them know what “misandry” is?

      10, Has 40 years of “misandry” had any effect on BOYS growing up, their sexual orientation or suicide rate for example?

      Reply

    • Eric says:

      06:38pm | 12/03/10

      Indeed, formersnag.

      This “industry” consists of 90% women. How can we possibly assume there’s no discrimination against men?

    • Greg Locock says:

      06:50pm | 11/03/10

      So you are paid the median wage to do a job that uses none of your formal education?

      Why would you be expected to be paid more than anyone else to do that?

      Write down a list of all the reasons someone couldn’t do your job. If that left several million potential applicants for your job that wouldn’t amaze me.

      Sorry, I can see why you want to be paid more, but I don’t think you /should/ expect to be paid as much as a nurse or a teacher or an engineer, in a free market. And if you want some sort of socialist alternative, well that wouldn’t surprise me, then we could all be seriously poor together.

      Meanwhile look on the bright side. You are paid more than about half the people in this country, for a rewarding job, mostly indoors, that gives you time to study, and you earn enough to own a car. I expect you have flexible hours, and manage to fit in convenient little errands while you are working. These things often get left out of comparisons like this.

      Reply

    • Helen says:

      11:10am | 16/03/10

      Here’s a comment from somebody from a more intelligent thread elsewhere on a similar subject.

      it’s amazing how the “high subjective value” of those positions starts declining relative to male average weekly earnings once large numbers of women begin appearing in said field! When was the last time you heard about a female CEO getting an obscene multi-million payout for non-performance?

      Draw yourself a 50-year chart of the wages of high school teachers relative to male average weekly earnings – it’s a fairly smooth descending line. Now add the line of percentage of women in high school teaching – it’s a neatly ascending line. The two lines form a neat ‘X’ in the middle. Spooky!

      Same trend in General Practice over the period. More female GPs, GPs not earning so high relative to av. male earnings as in the past. While more male-skewed sub-fields like dentistry stay at quite high levels.

      Now zoom out to all white-collar/professional settings. Since 1970, the average starting salary of university graduates has declined from 120% of male av. weekly earnings to around 80%. Guess what’s happened to the gender distribution of degrees during the same period? Yep, it’s gone from overwhelmingly male to slightly skewed towards female.

      SL, your solution ain’t a solution, because our society simply doesn’t value women’s work as much as that of men, even when the work is of equal value by equally qualified people. I know in our minds this ain’t true. But in the world, it is. It’s there in the data. Ouch!

      This effect is even more pronounced in two other fields I know quite well: marketing and IT. You don’t have to talk to male programmers for very long before you’ll more than one who will kindly volunteer their 19th century theory that women just aren’t as capable at programming, you know, ‘cos of the way they think. Marketing is another one where men at the same level in a company are frequently earning more than the women.

      I can confidently predict that if a whole lotta women in hard-hats turned up for work at the mines in WA, you would begin to see a sideways drift and then a gentle decline in the wages of that industry relative to average male weekly earnings…

      I’l repeat Mark’s point that’s been made umpteen times: We are having this conversation because, even though statutorily men and women have had equal pay since 1972, it isn’t borne out in wages data, and all the fig leaf excuses we keep propounding to explain it just aren’t big enough to cover the, err, genital gap.
      [END QUOTE]

      Just to inject a bit of reality into the discussion.

      Reply

    • Eric says:

      05:44pm | 16/03/10

      Your feminist fantasies notwithstanding, the reality is that men work longer hours at more difficult and dangerous jobs, and don’t take time off to have kids.

      If you want better pay, learn to be a plumber or a bricklayer.

 
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