I have listened with great interest to this week’s parliamentary debate about Australia’s involvement in Afghanistan, just as I have listened with great interest to this debate for the past nine years, since October 7th, 2001, when Operation Enduring Freedom was launched by the United States and its allies, including Australia, so that freedom so bravely won by the people of Afghanistan from communist oppression, and so cruelly lost over the following decade to civil war and Taliban misrule, may indeed return, and this time endure.

History will be the judge on Afghanistan. Photo: AFP.

I have listened to this debate and heard many arguments that we should abandon our mission in Afghanistan. 

Some of these arguments are passionate, others cold and rational; some seem sincere, while others callous. And all of them are wrong.

Wrong in principle and wrong in practice; wrong in general and wrong in particular; politically wrong and morally wrong.

Some say that force never solves anything.  Tell that to the liberated slaves throughout the nineteenth century.  Some say that there is nothing worse than war.  Tell that to the ghosts of the Holocaust and other victims of Nazi tyranny.

Some say that all we need is more dialogue and greater understanding.  Tell that to the tens of millions who perished over seven decades of the loathsome communist experiment, and to the tens of millions of those liberated from under its shadow twenty years ago.

Others, more pragmatic, will tell you that we cannot solve all the world’s problems, and so why bother with Afghanistan and not Darfur or Congo or North Korea? 

But just because you can’t do everything, it doesn’t mean that you should do nothing.  Think of wars on poverty, disease or carbon dioxide emissions.  Isn’t it strange how no one is arguing that because we can’t completely solve these problems, we should do nothing? 

Funny how this tendentious reasoning seems to only be applied to wars on terror and tyranny.

The same pragmatists will say that we shouldn’t meddle in other people’s internal conflicts, and will then go on to paraphrase Otto von Bismarck that the whole of Afghanistan is not worth the bones of a single Australian SAS soldier.

The truth of the matter is that at the dawn of the new century, and amidst our smaller and interconnected world, there is no conflict so isolated that it won’t sooner or later come knocking at your door. 

One would have thought that we have learned that lesson on September 11, 2001.  One would have thought that we have learned the lessons about appeasement, isolationism and sticking out heads in the sand even earlier than that – on September 1, 1939.

We value the courage of our armed men and women; we are eternally in debt to them for their service and sacrifice; we grieve with them and their loved ones for every loss they suffer. 

But we also know and understand this: that they are fighting the good fight today, in the time of our choosing and on our terms, so that we all don’t have to fight a bigger fight, later on, of the enemy’s choosing and on the enemy’s terms.

We bring war to them today, so that they can’t bring it to us tomorrow – and just as importantly that they can’t bring it once again to the long-suffering people of Afghanistan.

There is hardly a cause more just than trying to prevent the return of the Taliban regime.  This is the regime that treated half of its population –Afghan women – like useless trash; uneducated, unemployed, isolated, battered, hopeless and helpless. 

The regime that stoned to death apostates, adulterers and homosexuals, and which denied all basic human and political rights to its people.  The regime that imposed theocracy and medieval poverty on its 28 million subjects.

The regime that lived off the proceeds of the heroin trade and gave sanctuary to Al Qaeda.  The regime so obsessively oppressive that it mandated beards for all men, and banned music, kite-flying and sport, turning stadiums from centres of entertainment to venues of public executions.

And yet, some are saying that we should give up, leave the people of Afghanistan to their own devices, let them sort out their own affairs, whichever way the cards may fall.  This view astonishes me.

Afghanistan should be the cause celebre of the Left: protecting women’s and minority rights, fighting oppression and ethnic cleansing, battling an oppressive theocracy, promoting democracy and human rights.

And yet, according to the twisted moral compass of the Left, all these noble causes and moral considerations are trumped by one thing and one thing only: reflexive anti-Americanism and anti-Westernism.

The reasoning seems to work something like this:

a) Pick a conflict, any conflict.
b) See if one of the participants is the United States or Israel, and
c) If the answer to question b) is “yes”, take the other side.

It has been thus in every conflict around the world from the Russian Revolution and the civil war to the armed struggles of today.  There’s never been a leader or a movement so odious as to be beyond pale for the Left, as long as it was deemed sufficiently anti-American and anti-Western. 

Whole generations idolised Lenin, Stalin and the Soviet Union, then Mao, Castro, Che Guevara and Ho Chi Minh.  Noam Chomsky supported the Khmer Rouge.  Michel Foucault was intoxicated by Ayatollah Khomeini and the Iranian Revolution. 

Now Western pilgrims travel and pay homage to Hugo Chavez.

Some support our enemies openly.  Others are strongly offended at any suggestion that they support the enemy – it’s just that they simply cannot bring themselves to support our side.  And while these two positions might differ in the degree of moral culpability they attract, their practical consequences are all but the same.

It’s seventy years since George Orwell famously said:

“Pacifism is objectively pro-fascist. This is elementary common sense. If you hamper the war effort of one side, you automatically help out that of the other. Nor is there any real way of remaining outside such a war as the present one. In practice, ‘he that is not with me is against me’.”

It matters not in this context if we speak of the Second World War or the conflict in Afghanistan:  no matter what your excuses, no matter what your rationales, no matter how noble and pure your views – whether you call yourself a pacifist, or a humanitarian, whether you don’t believe in violence or in meddling in other people’s affairs – by calling for the end of military involvement in Afghanistan you are aiding and abetting one of the more monstrous political and religious movements in history.

As Mark Steyn wrote a few years ago:

“Everyone’s for free Tibet, but no one is for freeing Tibet.  So Tibet will stay unfree; as unfree now as it was when the very first Free Tibet campaigner slapped the very first “Free Tibet” sticker onto the back of his [car]… If [Donald] Rumsfeld were to say ‘Free Tibet?... What a swell idea! The Third Infantry Division goes in on Thursday’, the bumper sticker crowd would be aghast.  They’d have to bend down and peel off the ‘Free Tibet’ stickers and replace them with ‘War is not the answer’.”

And so it is here.

My message to all those pining for the withdrawal from Afghanistan, while cloaking their stance in a lofty humanitarian rhetoric of peace, love and human right:  You’re only for freedom if it doesn’t involve getting off your armchair.  You’re only against oppression if it doesn’t involve any real sacrifice. 

You’re only for women’s right, or gay rights, or minority rights, or human rights, or democracy, as long as it does not interfere with your political agenda of opposing what you see as the global American hegemony.

Being concerned – or pretending to be concerned – is not a substitute for action.  Just as no “Free Tibet” sticker has ever freed one Tibetan, so no amount of candle-lit vigils has managed to save one Darfurian life from genocide. 

And no amount of posturing that you really care about the fate of Afghan women, men and children will do one tiniest bit to ensure that the 28 million people in that country continue to lead better lives and enjoy hope for the future, if at the same time you are trying to force the withdrawal of NATO and Allied armed forces.

The day always comes when you have to make a choice:  Are you for freedom or against it?  Are you against tyranny and oppression or for it, whether be it out of spite, misguided idealism or merely indifference?

Think carefully about your answer before you say it, and when you do say it, don’t say it to me – go and have the courage to say it to the hidden face of a woman who will be imprisoned at home, a man who will be slaughtered because he worships the wrong god or belongs to a wrong tribe, or to a child who you’re condemning to a life with no future and no hope.

The history will judge you, and she is a harsh judge.

Most commented

72 comments

Show oldest | newest first

    • Joan says:

      08:31am | 30/10/10

      What a mish-mash article… it wouldn’t pass any final year examination. The war would be over if the Afghan people were passionate to go the way of the West. and were on USA coallition side. 9 years and 10 more promised by Gillard. Crazy. No I`m not from the left.  You can always volunteer and go to Afghanistan and show them the way, generate the passion in them that they don’t seem to have - a passion greater than that of the Taliban

    • stephen says:

      11:51am | 30/10/10

      Final year exam for what ? Is the writer under ‘cross’-examination, then ?
      His expressed opinion is clear and unambigous.
      He says we are fighting a war to stop a greater one. That’s agreed, and if it’s true, then Joan you, and your inactive friends, can…‘go to Afghanistan and show them the way…a passion greater than that of the Taliban.’

    • BobM says:

      02:46pm | 30/10/10

      Suggest you read the article again, Joan. I think the only mish-mash is between your ears. It’s a bit hard to generate passion to fight when you’re up against an armed and cruel lot like the Taliban, and you’re just a peasant farmer who just wants to look after his family without getting beaten up or shot. What would you do if the army came to your door and ordered your husband or sons outside - probably just $hit yourself, like everybody else.  What? No passion to fight? Easier said than done, when you’re an armchair expert like yourself.

    • PaulB says:

      11:31pm | 30/10/10

      This article is the kind of cheap attitude-forming propaganda one saw coming from truly odious professional liars like William Kristol or Anne Coulter in the run up to the fraudulant Iraq war in 2002-2003.

    • Heather says:

      04:16pm | 31/10/10

      So… you’ll be on the next plane to Afghanistan then, to show them this way, Joan?

      Don’t forget your burquah and your chaperone.

    • David of the Grand Academy of Adelagado. says:

      11:18am | 01/11/10

      Its been a long time since I read an article jammed with so many empty cliches. I felt dirty after reading it, sort of like being forced to watch porn. And just as vacuous.

      And Brett, just in case you have trouble keeping up with the latest reality,  we are now maneuvering to RE-INSTAL the Taliban into a position of power as they provide the best hope for a stable government. Yes the veruy same Taliban we arrested David Hicks for joining.

    • Adam Diver says:

      08:46am | 30/10/10

      My favorite punch piece ever! Well done, you conveyed my frustrations perfectly.

    • Super D says:

      10:52am | 30/10/10

      Logic and reason will stymie those with a “progressive” disposition every time.  Of course they will simply rationalise their positions by claiming the author is some sort of neo-con capitalist shill.

    • Futureproof says:

      08:58am | 30/10/10

      Greens, ALP, Socialists, Tony Windsor and Rob JOkeshott, take note.  Bob Brown - please resign.

    • Bruce says:

      03:31pm | 30/10/10

      Bob Brown, has no idea. The price of piece is constance vigilance. Bob Brown’s idea is to retreat to the silence of Tasmania !

    • jim morris says:

      09:14am | 30/10/10

      The problem in Afghanistan is Islam and you will never change that.

    • Super D says:

      10:49am | 30/10/10

      Actually it’s a primitive, tribal, cultural, mysoginist version of Islam.  The conditions that were suffered under the oppression of the Taliban bear no resemblance to the conditions in other Muslim countries.

    • Katie says:

      11:25am | 30/10/10

      Wow, and the award for first Islamophobic comments goes to jim morris! No, the problem is with extremists. There are Islamic extremists like the Taliban, and there are non-Muslim extremists like you.

    • marley says:

      01:48pm | 30/10/10

      No, the problem in Afghanistan is and always has been tribalism.  Maybe you can change that.

    • Jon says:

      02:35pm | 31/10/10

      Yes, this is the inconvenient truth!

    • Matt says:

      03:46pm | 01/11/10

      Katie - no the problem is not with extremists.  Jim is correct in saying that the problem for Afghanistan, and the rest of the world for that matter, is Islam.  Pure and simple.  An archaic and brutal 6th century ideology that commands total submission from its followers and commands in its holiest books that muslims must lie, cheat, steal, torture, murder, enslave and fight against any non-believers. 

      The last point can’t be argued against as it is written plainly, openly and repeatedly in the Koran.  Whether each Muslim carries out these instructions is irrelevant.  Their religion dictates it, so the extremists are really the ones that go against the word of their own god.

      Look at all countries that have Islam as their main religion and do some research on the violence and suffering - Somalia, Afghanistan, Iran, Darfur, Saudi Arabia, etc.  Can you still seriously say that it’s only the extremists that are bad? 

      If the Australian government was serious about banning books that incite hatred and violence, then the Koran should be at the top of the list.

      http://www.thereligionofpeace.com
      http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/

    • Katie says:

      06:01pm | 01/11/10

      Matt, the problem is absolutely with extremists. The Taliban does not represent Islam any more than you represent non-Muslims. You are an absolute extremist, and you don’t know the first thing about Islam.

      “An archaic and brutal 6th century ideology that commands total submission from its followers and commands in its holiest books that muslims must lie, cheat, steal, torture, murder, enslave and fight against any non-believers. “

      Disgusting.


      “The last point can’t be argued against as it is written plainly, openly and repeatedly in the Koran.”

      Actually it’s not.

      “Look at all countries that have Islam as their main religion and do some research on the violence and suffering”

      Yeh, and they have this suffering because they are Muslim and no non-Muslim countries have violence and suffering. You are the epitome of ignorant Islamophobia!

      “If the Australian government was serious about banning books that incite hatred and violence, then the Koran should be at the top of the list.”

      If they were serious about tackling bigotry and racism, they would deport you.

      “http://www.thereligionofpeace.com
      http://barenakedislam.wordpress.com/

      You couldn’t find a KKK site to go with it?

      “im is correct in saying that the problem for Afghanistan, and the rest of the world for that matter, is Islam.  Pure and simple. “

      No what is pure and simple is that you’re an extremist and a bigot.

    • Matt says:

      06:45am | 02/11/10

      Katie, I do actually know about Islam and what I’m saying is correct, and far from being an Islamophobe, I am more Islam-aware.  But you clearly demonstrate one of the strategies of Islam.  Any criticism that is levelled towards it, is met by insults, threats, violence, riots and murder.  They cry absolute blue murder when the smallest negative remark is spoken.

      Other areas around the world have extreme violence, but Islam is unique in that it is classed as a religion but it is used as the reason and excuse for the majority of the violence carried out by Muslims.

      However, I don’t need to work to prove what I have said.  The proof is available for everyone who wants to take the time to see it.

      So this is my suggestion to you - during your day today, go to your local bookstore and buy a copy of the Koran.  It’s heavy going, but if you persist then you will see that Islam does command its followers to do exactly as I have said.  Rape - yes.  Child Marriages - Yes.  Lie to achieve goal - Yes.  Kill Non-Believers - yes.  Enslave - Yes.  Oppress Women - Yes.

      As I said - It is ALL written in plain black and white, but please don’t take my word for it.  Go read the book for yourself.

    • Katie says:

      08:20am | 02/11/10

      “So this is my suggestion to you - during your day today, go to your local bookstore and buy a copy of the Koran. “

      Actually, I own one, and I’ve read it from cover to cover. I didn’t just cherry-pick quotes from a KKK website.

      Thanks, though, it’s quite amusing being given advice from extremists an Islamophobes such as yourself.

      ” It’s heavy going, but if you persist then you will see that Islam does command its followers to do exactly as I have said. “

      Actually it doesn’t.

      “Rape - yes.  Child Marriages - Yes.  Lie to achieve goal - Yes.  Kill Non-Believers - yes.  Enslave - Yes.  Oppress Women - Yes.”

      Rape-no. Child Marriages- nothing that was unusual for the time. Lie to achieve goal- no. Kill Non-Believers- in war, yes, but otherwise no. Enslave- No. Oppress Women- they gave women more rights than they had previously.

      You are Islamophobic and you are ignorant. As I said, you don’t know the first thing about it.

      Here is my tip to you; stop going onto the KKK sites, buy and read the Koran yourself, and if you have any questions, ask a Muslim.

      “As I said - It is ALL written in plain black and white,”

      What is written in black and white is the proof that you are wrong.

      “but please don’t take my word for it.”

      Who would take your word for it? I wouldn’t take your word on it.

      “Go read the book for yourself.”

      I have, unlike you, and unlike you, I know what I’m talking about.

      Go share your extremism with your KKK buddies.

    • Katie says:

      12:49pm | 02/11/10

      “Katie, I do actually know about Islam and what I’m saying is correct, and far from being an Islamophobe, I am more Islam-aware. “

      Actually you don’t know anything about Islam, and you absolutely an Islamophobe.

      ” But you clearly demonstrate one of the strategies of Islam.”

      Islam has no such stragedies. It’s no homogenous, contrary to what you might think.

      ” Any criticism that is levelled towards it, is met by insults, threats, violence, riots and murder. “

      You didn’t just criticise it, you VILLIFIED it. Yes, I insulted you, just as you insulted Muslims. But nobody has issued hreats, violence, riots and murder, and neither do the overwhelming majority of Muslims.

      “They cry absolute blue murder when the smallest negative remark is spoken.”

      They? Who is this they?

      “Other areas around the world have extreme violence, but Islam is unique in that it is classed as a religion but it is used as the reason and excuse for the majority of the violence carried out by Muslims.”

      It is not the reason. The only people who claim so are extremists, both Islamic and non-Islamic.

      “However, I don’t need to work to prove what I have said. “

      Actually you do, since you haven’t said one accurate thing. But then bigots don’t really care about facts do you?

      “The proof is available for everyone who wants to take the time to see it.”

      Yes, the proof that you are ignorant and an Islamophobe.

      Oh, just so you know, KKK sites are not proof.

    • Zaan says:

      09:44am | 30/10/10

      Wonderful article

    • Al says:

      09:45am | 30/10/10

      War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks nothing is worth war is much worse.  The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing for which is more important than his own personal safety is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unlessade and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself. -

    • Akraziel Rising says:

      07:57pm | 30/10/10

      @ Al - This quote is as relevant now as when John Stuart Mill first stated it nearly 150 years ago… I had the quote written on a piece of card which I carried with me the whole time I was in Afghanistan.

      Well said Brett Mason! I would rather fight and die for what on the whole is good and right than be a miserable creature of cowardice and apathy. Mistakes happen in war and it is not a perfect creature by any means, but sometimes, just sometimes, war is neccessary.

      Remember people, you voted in the government who sent us there and then you voted in the government that kept us there, we just do what you ask of us through them.

      Yes it will take time, of course it will. Imagine it this way… You have been systematically abused your entire life when all of a sudden someone who looks different to you and doesn’t speak your language walks in and says through an interpreter “hey you don’t have to put up with that! I will show you how to fight back and defeat your oppressor”, you have never met them before, you don’t know who they are or if you are about to replace one abusive relationship for another. You want the help but you are afraid to ask for it in case your abuser finds out and hurts you even more. It takes time and positive, repeated assistance and help to establish that element of trust and understanding.

      When you have spent that time building the trust and understanding and are starting to see the lights come on and the abused person has just started coming to the realisation that you might just be the good guys do you then turn around and say… “sorry Luv, you didn’t get on board fast enough, we’re outta here so you better bomb up and sort it out yourself!” If the answer to that question is Yes then you need to go and stand in front of a mirror and have a long hard look at yourself and try to figure out what sort of person you are, cos you sure aren’t the sort of person who should be calling themselves an Australian.

      @ Joan – All that I can say to you is that is better to remain silent and thought a fool… than to write a reply like yours in Punch and remove all doubt!

    • Gregg says:

      01:53pm | 31/10/10

      At a Krazi el rising,
      There is a freedom of expression we have in our country and Joan may no more be a fool than one who feels a 150 year old quote is a good guide.
      You may find the patriotic state of Afghans could reun deeper than what your interpreter can ever tell you.
      And sure, build some trust and then leave on rotation so there is someone else to trust, people who are heavily armed and guard themselves inside heavily armed compounds not out living with those who it is said to trust us!
      It would seem our freedom of expression falls short with Brett Mason who may have not enjoyed my other post on his crazy views.

    • Eric says:

      10:11am | 30/10/10

      Brilliantly said!

    • Hmmm says:

      10:35am | 30/10/10

      Rampant corruption, poor education, century old emnities and tradition grounded in religion will frustrate an outcome that sees woman, children and minorities like the Hazaras be safe in any enduring way for a very very long time yet.

    • Andrew says:

      10:56am | 30/10/10

      I don’t agree with your characterisation of anti-Afghanistan war views as being broadly held by “The Left”. My political views definitely lie to the left of the Liberal Party but I support the war in Afghanistan and am dismayed by the pathetic arguments offered by the “Hard Left” who should really be mentioned in your article.

      In a doorstop interview the day that he spoke about Afghanistan in the senate Bob Brown said that human rights abuses by the Taliban were not a good enough reason for our troops to stay in Afghanistan, but this week he said that human rights abuses by the Singaporean government mean that we should not allow the SGX to takeover the AGX. If the abuse of human rights is so abhorrent shouldn’t we do whatever we can as a nation to prevent them? Or is the prevention of the abuse of human rights merely a straw man so Bob Brown doesn’t have to admit that what he really despises is capitalism?

      When will Labor and Liberal wake up and realise that “the enemy of my enemy is my friend” and expose The Greens as a bunch of half-baked pseudo-intellectuals who hide their dated radical socialist ideals behind a surface of “Green” policies.

    • lemininywinks says:

      04:34pm | 31/10/10

      there is an ENORMOUS difference between declining a business relationship with some one because of perceived human rights abuses and blowing them up.

      perhaps this is a little off topic, but really, enough of the “greens = stalin” hoo ha. it’s almost as annoying as “liberals=hitler” .

    • Jason says:

      11:23am | 30/10/10

      This is without doubt the best article I have read in recent memory. Absolutely spot-on. And Joan, your criticism is really a case of clutching at straws for something to argue about.

    • Ned says:

      11:35am | 30/10/10

      What a pity this had to to turn into a left vs right argument. Surely we can discuss the pros and cons of staying in or leaving Afghanistan without it turning into a silly party-political argument. You see Brett, you are right. Leaving Afghanistan to its own devices will bring all the things you write about. You are right that it’s morally correct to oppose the appalling religious fascism characterised by the Taliban. But being right about these things means we will be in Afghanistan for a very long time. There is just no short or medium term solution that does not involve the obnoxious Taliban re-asserting its evil regime. Not that the current regime is a lot better in terms of morality. Perhaps, though, it is the lesser of two very unpleasant evils.

    • Gregg says:

      11:37am | 30/10/10

      Absolutely Amazing,
      Long live the King and the Crusades!
      ” My message to all those pining for the withdrawal from Afghanistan, while cloaking their stance in a lofty humanitarian rhetoric of peace, love and human right:  You’re only for freedom if it doesn’t involve getting off your armchair.  You’re only against oppression if it doesn’t involve any real sacrifice. “
      And so Brett, is it to be for you, stuff the suit and tie where’s the Dad’s Army recruitment office?
      I’m off to hunt me down some Taliban!
      Just so many inconsistencies in your diatribe of war mongering Brett, I’ll not even bother to comment other than you do know that those opium harvesting Taliban only in power for about five years have a base largely with the Pashtun, a peoples of the region, a poorer peoples no doubt and despite the harshness of the Taliban law, it is somewhat close to that of Saudia Arabia and we know who came from there for 9/11, who just sold them a heap of new weaponry and what kind of elite power structure there is! - it’s all rather a bit more convoluted than what you will ever know I suspect Brett but then you may want just to make war on Islam!

      And back to the Pashtun peoples, they just happen to have been about awhile and form about 60% or so of the Afghan population. You infer force would have been better than dialogue for the experiment of communism and yet there may be some who consider it served them not so badly, China being the new economic powerhouse and if you haven’t travelled to Vietnam, you ought to try it.

      What is classical though is the Orwell quote and similar :
      ” ......... ‘he that is not with me is against me’.” real Axis of Evil, Smoking gun stuff and ” you’re with me or agin me ” talk from another George!
      and
      ” The truth of the matter is that at the dawn of the new century, and amidst our smaller and interconnected world, there is no conflict so isolated that it won’t sooner or later come knocking at your door

      We bring war to them today, so that they can’t bring it to us tomorrow – and just as importantly that they can’t bring it once again to the long-suffering people of Afghanistan. “
      All so very British stiff upper lip there reminding me of the words one Brit colonel or whatever in Iraq was using to rev up his troops psyche with that went something like
      ” Lads!, we are going to visit in their beds those who would want to do harm to us so as they will not be harming anyone “
      That certainly succeeded in Basra it would seem by what has been more truthfully reported recently, about as successful there as three Anglo Afghan wars had been.

      The Brits had more successful massacres in other regions where plundering and looting occurred.
      In deed, it is well known of artefacts removed from Greece as spoils of war or whatever that are in British Museums but perhaps less well known that much fine art of the type the early Brits never did was plundered from Africa and is in the London Museum.

      Blokes like you Mason will probably always fail to comprehend that what goes around may come around even if it takes a few centuries
      You even say it yourself without knowing what you say
      ” there is no conflict so isolated that it won’t sooner or later come knocking at your door “
      May your blood soak the battelfield for the glory you seek!

    • bob says:

      07:26pm | 31/10/10

      @ Gregg… Mate what a load of waffle, two posts in this thread and neither of them make a lick of sense, for someone who makes out that no one knows what is going on your own lack of knowledge about the situation on the ground shouts volumes to your ignorance… well done on the take a whole lot of time to say squat front, you are definitely winnimg that war cheif!

    • Duncan says:

      12:09pm | 30/10/10

      Brett, you are blind. You probably do not know a single Afghan yourself. You are clueless about Islam. You are clueless about vigils - although people have died but those vigils only made people closer to the creator and to believe in goodness which only did good for the future. This is extremely mish mashed written by a very judgmental man who only knows and understands the war from how he sees it on the newspaper and perhaps one of his staffer’s blog!

    • Likes Joining Dots says:

      12:16pm | 30/10/10

      Brett Mason, how dare you.
      I change my car stickers all the time (and recycle them), I don’t need you to tell me when I should and should not change my cause.  It’s freedom of speech remember?

    • Steve_of_Cornubia says:

      02:12pm | 30/10/10

      Personally, I think the reasons for invading Afghanistan were valid. However, I believed from the start that there couldn’t be a clear victory. I’m not a military scholar or historian, but I think I’m right in saying that, since mass executions to bring populations under control became unfashionable, no great army has prevailed against a guerilla army. It simply isn’t possible to fight ‘soldiers’ who don’t wear uniforms and hide among fearful civilians, whether they belong to the Vietcong, the IRA or the Taliban.

      I reckon many experts in America and elsewhere are right when they say winning ‘hearts and minds’ is more important than killing Taliban soldiers, but is this really possible? If a villager refuses to cooperate with the americans he will be spared, but if the Taliban suspect him of helping the americans (or if he refuses to help the Taliban) he will be killed.

      How do you fight that? Is it any wonder that few people are willing to identify Taliban soldiers hiding in their midst? Would you cooperate with the US if you thought the west might pull out soon?

      The thought of pulling out fills me with dread. Can you imagine the bloodbath that would ensue? Whether you agree with this war or not, you’d have to be very naiive to think the Taliban wouldn’t extract their revenge on all collaborators (real and imagined), or heartless if you think that a price worth paying.

    • Fiddlesticks says:

      03:33pm | 30/10/10

      Senator Mason might want to brush up his knowledge of Afghani history over the last century or so before he hops into the usual finger wagging.

      For a Party that supposedly stands for the responsibility of the individual, you’d think he might have though that through.

      So, Senator, when do you expect the Afghani populace will stand up and take collective and individual responsibility for their own peace and freedom?

      When the last sack of aid rice has been re-labelled “Gift of (insert name of local warlord)”?

      When the last opium poppy has harvested?

      When the last NATO soldier has been killed?

      Just when, exactly, Senator?

    • Joyce Cowshead says:

      04:00pm | 30/10/10

      ..the twisted moral compass of the left…who have committed to Afghanistan for at least another decade, No soldier or ex serviceman ever voted for the morally corrupt left…history is a funny sheila ..she might judge you as well

    • MINDOG says:

      04:17pm | 30/10/10

      Well done mate. Yours is a voice that needs to be heard

    • Laura says:

      05:27pm | 30/10/10

      Awesome article! I love the Mark Steyn quote…funny and so true. I definitely agree with your points but I also feel that the culture of Islam delights in oppression and archaic Laws that will not go out unless there is constant Western watch or a majority of westerners to combat it. Therefore, even if we continue (which we should) it may still end up futile. The abc reasoning is so true and has sound evidence from history.

    • Richard says:

      05:36pm | 30/10/10

      Beautifully and eloquently put.

    • zina says:

      05:37pm | 30/10/10

      And whom are we helping now?

      jim morris
      Islam has never been a problem in Malaysia, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Tadzikistan, Brunei i mamny other Muslim countries.

      Whereas Christianity did not help Hitler that much, did it?

    • marley says:

      06:49pm | 31/10/10

      Okay, point one.  In Afghanistan, the main issues are tribal.  Pashtun vs everyone else.  The fact that the Pashtuns are conservative Sunnis, and “everyone else” are either moderate Sunnis or Shias complicates the picture.  The Shia Hazaras don’t stand a chance.

      So the question then becomes, do we stay and end up with an on-going struggle lasting for years, supporting an unsavoury, corrupt Afghan government backed by warlords.  Or do we leave and let the Pashtuns complete their ethnic and religious cleansing.  Because those are the choices.

    • iansand says:

      05:50pm | 30/10/10

      Great article.  All correct.  Winning the war in Afghanistan will have myriad benefits.

      What is your plan to win?  How do you win a war against an enemy fighting in its own country among its own people?  That is the problem.  If you can’t solve that problem all you say is piss and wind.

    • Vanessa says:

      06:48pm | 30/10/10

      hear hear. Thank you.

    • Mr Pastry says:

      07:43pm | 30/10/10

      You cannot bolt on modern democracy onto primitive cultures, it does not and has never worked.  An older society has to progress at its own pace through a natural societal evolution to get to the level we enjoy.  In the west we must accept that the path to how we live is a matter for the country itself and time, and not be imposed in an imperialistic manner, however well meaning.

    • lemininywinks says:

      10:25pm | 30/10/10

      the afghan war is just. however, the righteousness of the mission is diminished by the poor conduct of those who run it. unless we rethink our strategy in afghanistan, which to date seems to have done more harm than good, i can hardly blame people for questioning our being there.

    • Duke says:

      11:49pm | 30/10/10

      “Ending Afghanistan will aid a monstrous regime”

      Oh, you mean the Taliban.  I thought you meant the corrupt, abusive, drug ridden, warlord controlled rabble that is currently propped up in the capital fortress.  Still, black and white is easy eh?

    • marley says:

      09:58am | 01/11/10

      Bad as Karzai and his cronies are, they’re better than the Taliban.  Ask the 5 million Afghans who’ve returned home since the Taliban were ousted.

    • jim moris says:

      08:27am | 31/10/10

      In relation to Afghanistan I am left bewildered and fearful that so many seemingly intelligent people can display their absolute stupidity and daunting level of ignorance by suggesting ‘we’ should be there and fantasising that some kind of change or progress can result. Gratuitous niceness is an insidious mental impairment.

    • Free for All says:

      08:55am | 31/10/10

      Islam - the religion of peace - just read the Koran and see the opposite so war must go on forever.  How long whould we stay in the name of freedom?

    • Jo Starling says:

      09:09am | 31/10/10

      hahahahaha…‘Operation Enduring Freedom’ while in WA your car will be confiscated if you are caught 20k above the speed limit and crushed if you do it three times and all without being found guilty in a court of law - freedom my left foot.

    • FFS says:

      01:32pm | 31/10/10

      Great work, Jo. Comparing a war with not being allowed to exceed the speed limit. You clever, witty, handsome devil.

    • St. Michael says:

      09:23am | 31/10/10

      Unfortunately, Mr Mason, the Afghans don’t want the West there and never have.  Most of the “Taliban” setting off IEDs are actually local young guys with an axe to grind against the Americans, not a brutal Islamic government.  We’re not in there For Great Justice as you seem to be asserting, but are merely there now to try and train as many Afghans as possible to hold the gates of the embassies for the 20 minutes or so required before we evacuate a la South Vietnam.

      Your argument of “We gotta fight it SOMEWHERE!” also ignores practical reality.  There are plenty of terrorist training camps around the world.  Some are in Pakistan, which unlike Afghanistan is a nuclear state.  If we have to fight it SOMEWHERE, how about we fight it there? Oh, right, nuclear weapons, I forgot about that.

      Forget the anti-left bullshit, just put your silly principled argument as pragmatic: either we’re all in or all out.  At the moment in Afghanistan Australia and the US are neither.

    • S says:

      10:53am | 31/10/10

      What a stirring article. The quote, ‘actions speak louder than words’ seems very applicable here. You are very correct in saying that we sit and offer (or force) our views to the world from the comfort of our armchairs. As such, I think it is important to remember that our opinions are based on sympathy, not empathy. I would imagine that most Australians, myself being one, can not even imagine what has been, and still is, suffered by many all over the world. It is so easy for us to be sympathetic; it allows us to change the channel on the television when we don’t want to read about the latest killing in Afghanistan, we can skip the pages in the newspaper about the latest torture regimes. But, more importantly I feel, we only give passing credit to the amazing stories of courage and resilience that come out of these countries.

      It is true, there are a lot of things in the world that could be improved, and this is an onerous task. Even the issues at our own doorstop, indigenous Australia and department of child services to name a few, get a few weeks in the limelight before being placed in the ‘too hard’ basket. And many of us are secretly thankful when we are not reminded of the blemishes on our country’s record. However, we must remind ourselves that if we don’t do something, no matter how small or seemingly insignificant, we do nothing. And by doing nothing, we allow the injustice in the world to continue.

    • Jotun says:

      11:36am | 31/10/10

      Mr Mason, get off your high horse. This is the most self-righteous piece of dribble I have read for a long time.

      Do we really feel this need to go and liberate everyone? What are we, the Captain Planet Army bringing democracy and equality to people whose lives revolve around who isn’t dead before dinner?

      The coalition of the willing did not go to Afghanistan to give the Afghans a better nation to live in. It was a politically driven war of revenge for 9/11, and it’s turned into a political mission to try and justify the whole conflict. It only became about keeping the Taliban from regaining power when we needed some feel-good meds to ignorantly swallow without question.

      If the Afghani population wanted the Taliban gone, they would rise up and take their country back, like so many tribes and armies in Africa do every day. There would be no insurgents in Afghanistan, the Taliban still wouldn’t hold so much sway, the Afghani people would not have so many misgivings about the American-sponsored Karzai government.

      We should abandon Afghanistan. They should earn the nation they want for themselves. They can die for their country, instead of our army dying for them while killing them too.

    • marley says:

      06:52pm | 31/10/10

      How do you equate what you’re saying, with the vast numbers of Afghan refugees who returned to Afghanistan when the Taliban was ousted from government?  Surely, the 5 million returnees (numbers supplied by the UNHCR) voted with their feet by heading home.

    • David says:

      12:20pm | 31/10/10

      So many words but so little wisdom. Brett Mason simply does not understand the power of religion to dominate human thinking. You cannot equate fighting ‘disease,  poverty, or carbon emissions’ to fighting fundamentalists in their own country. Since Magna Carta, its taken about us about 800 years to work out how western democracy and Christianity can comfortably work together. Do we really think we are going to force democracy on a country in which the majority still think they want Sharia Law? The best way to win is to get out.

    • Ellen Bach says:

      01:55pm | 31/10/10

      On the back of this thread we should surely go back to Vietnam or Nth Korea or perhaps China or Burma,or even Cuba,lets fight everyone who doesn,t agree with western values.An emotional argument such as this is difficult to negate,but it is a role for a consensual U.N, not the gung ho coalition,who hunted for Bin Laden,then the insurgent Taliban,then the pursuit of democratic values,you can,t shift the goalposts of the mission to suit. We all want a better world, but is this not an idealists dream.  War must be the last resort. Call me an armchair pacifist and I,ll call you an armchair militant.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      01:56pm | 31/10/10

      The US government and corporations had no problems having relations with the Taliban before 9/11. In fact the Taliban were a recognised government of Afghanistan before the war, recognised by Australia and the US. For a shadow minister for Universities and Research, you don`t seem to do a lot of research or be educated…..

    • marley says:

      01:27pm | 01/11/10

      I don’t believe the US or Australian governments ever recognized the Taliban regime.  Perhaps you need to do a bit more research yourself.

    • Alan says:

      02:48pm | 31/10/10

      So glad I have discovered Punch. Now I can drop in anytime to see what the profoundly ignorant are chatting about.
      “Afghan” is not a generic. The country is populated by a widely diverse, human society.
      The gunmen, warlords and theocrats are only on top because outside forces have kept the whole nation on a war footing for so long.
      There is a civil society in waiting but neither Karzai or the Taliban want it to rise up. War keeps it down. We supply the war.
      This article is remarkable mostly for it’s complete lack of factual analysis based on testable statements about specific factors in that country. It is a load of hyperbolic,rhetorical Ra-Ra-Ra more suitable for teenagers and over -excited undergrads.
      How do you actually know that “the majority still want Sharia law”. It’s just something you heard somewhere. Prove it!
      Really life’s to short for these sort of “news” sites.

    • David says:

      07:35pm | 31/10/10

      Alan you asked. “How do you actually know that “the majority still want Sharia law”. It’s just something you heard somewhere. Prove it!”

      http://www.gallup.com/poll/104731/muslims-want-democracy-theocracy.aspx

      “In Jordan, Egypt, Pakistan, Afghanistan, and Bangladesh, majorities want Sharia as the “only source” of legislation.”

      Any more questions?

    • Beau says:

      04:10pm | 31/10/10

      Wow Brett. You’ve thrown everything but an original thought into this one. What a load of self righteous tripe.

    • Anthony says:

      10:34pm | 31/10/10

      If you believe the latest poll from the Herald Sun, 76% of Australians believe that the 9/11 attacks were completely orchestrated by the US Government.  If we can’t work out why the US is fighting this war, then how can we be apart of it?

    • iansand says:

      09:00am | 01/11/10

      76% of Herald Sun readers also believe what Andrew Bolt writes.  We aren’t talking about the denizens of the deep end of the gene pool here.

    • Afghan Vet says:

      09:14am | 01/11/10

      Brilliant Article, Thank you Brett.

      Action speaks so much louder than words.

    • David66 says:

      10:07am | 01/11/10

      People tend to think of the war in Afghanistan in terms of post 9/11. This country has been at war FOREVER. They will unite to fight an enemy invader, but in the meantime will run around killing each other. Ghengis Khan, Alexander the great, The British, and the Soviet Union all had their respective arses kicked out of this country.( I think the chinese and some others as well, but I do not know for sure.)  Now the USA, NATO, Australia and others are gearing up to have their esteem kicked by this rag tag bunch of opium traffickers. I do not see it as whether we should stay or go, but as how long until we give up on these people and how much of a bloody nose will we have when forced to leave.

    • Drew Lyes says:

      11:04am | 01/11/10

      Looks like we should have gone to Sth, Africa pre apartheid and knocked those whiteys on the head too,  ah.. hold on maybe the boycotts achieved something…and if your attacking homophobes maybe look amongst your own ranks. Funny I,ve never seen so much praise for any article on Punch, looks like people actually believe you.

    • petery says:

      07:13am | 28/12/10

      The debate here reminds me of the Vietnam period, and ‘like that war,in all likelihood,  this war will end,(if it ever does),the same way.It could still end in negotiated truce, which would tend to make all the black and white arguments about winning and losing, or fighting to the death, look simplistic,if not stupid. It should be for Afghanis deciding when they want it to end,not just for US,because we are supposedly fighting the war on their behalf,and not just for our convenience as revenge for 9/11,aren’t we?! The Vietnam conflict did not end conveniently in a completely happy ending, but neither as it turns out was it a completely unhappy one either.

      I am amused by the expression ármchair pacifists’‘,because from what I read here, there also exists what I would call a regiment of armchair (and pub) patriots, those passionate enough to send other people away to kill others but who have absolutely no intention of making any sacrifice personally or doing anything brave themselves.Maybe they really don’t want to kill anyone either,but won’t admit it! They might quote famous authors to suggest pacifists are cowardly and hypocritical, but it seems to me that certain patriots can share the same attributes,as do the so called Left and Right.

      You don’t have to be pacifist,just intelligent,to realise that war is one of the worst ways of settling disputes,because most wars have unintended consequences. We fought WW2 to free Poland,but at the end Poland was free from the Nazis,but not from the Russians. Those passionate enough to argue that we should stay the course in Afghanistan (forever)?, should think carefully about whether the unintended consequences of staying might be worse than quitting.

    • outlet says:

      06:09am | 13/06/12

      It is hard to find knowledgeable people on this topic, but you sound like you know what you?e talking about! Thanks

    • outlet says:

      05:26am | 16/06/12

      There are definitely numerous particulars like that to take into consideration. That may be a nice level to deliver up. I supply the ideas above as basic inspiration however clearly there are questions just like the one you deliver up the place crucial factor will probably be working in trustworthy good faith. I don?t know if greatest practices have emerged round issues like that, however I’m positive that your job is clearly recognized as a good game. Each girls and boys really feel the impression of only a second’s pleasure, for the remainder of their lives. http://www.lovingguccishop.com

 

Facebook Recommendations

Read all about it

Punch live

Up to the minute Twitter chatter

ToryShepherd

And it's @msmarto for the win! Best news report, well done! #samediaawards

David Penberthy

@radionotes1015 I'd love to do that mate

ToryShepherd

@RebeccaMorse10 @mikesmithson7 reckon you've got some competition in the #kneerug category #samediaawards

David Penberthy

Love the afl ad for indigenous round. We've got Andrew McLeod on p1 tomorrow in red yellow and black jumper the #crows will wear next week

Recent posts

The latest and greatest

The Punch is moving house

The Punch is moving house

Good morning Punchers. After four years of excellent fun and great conversation, this is the final post…

Will Pope Francis have the vision to tackle this?

Will Pope Francis have the vision to tackle this?

I have had some close calls, one that involved what looked to me like an AK47 pointed my way, followed…

Advocating risk management is not “victim blaming”

Advocating risk management is not “victim blaming”

In a world in which there are still people who subscribe to the vile notion that certain victims of sexual…

Nosebleed Section

choice ringside rantings

From: Hasbro, go straight to gaol, do not pass go

Tim says:

They should update other things in the game too. Instead of a get out of jail free card, they should have a Dodgy Lawyer card that not only gets you out of jail straight away but also gives you a fat payout in compensation for daring to arrest you in the first place. Instead of getting a hotel when you… [read more]

From: A guide to summer festivals especially if you wouldn’t go

Kel says:

If you want a festival for older people or for families alike, get amongst the respectable punters at Bluesfest. A truly amazing festival experience to be had of ALL AGES. And all the young "festivalgoers" usually write themselves off on the first night, only to never hear from them again the rest of… [read more]

Gentle jabs to the ribs

Superman needs saving

Superman needs saving

Can somebody please save Superman? He seems to be going through a bit of a crisis. Eighteen months ago,… Read more

28 comments

Newsletter

Read all about it

Sign up to the free News.com.au newsletter