Don’t mention the war - it’s about the troops

Scot says:

08:27pm | 28/12/10

Rufus. They are doing a fabulous job. Why, because they are protecting our way of life, taking care of these radicals that are hell bent on destroying our way of life. They should stay as long as it takes to stop these fools. The UK has just rounded up a group of idiots just before Christmas. Labor and the Greens radicals are just as dangerous as these Afghan radicals. 99.9% of Australians support our troops. Labor should not forget this.

rufus says:

05:45am | 29/12/10

You’re wrong, Scot. Surveys show that most Australians want the troops home. Labor has ignored this, with Gillard foolishly foreshadowing another 10 years in ‘gan. We’ll be out when the US is out, probably in 2 years.

Shifter says:

01:56pm | 29/12/10

That’s a horrible truth rufus. Our efforts are slave to the US war machine. Our troops are over there for the political gain of supporting big buddy Uncle Sam in their quest for regime change.

What has changed? Well, Saddam’s dead, but petrol prices are up. Afghanistan is still the same but the US either goes naked or gets felt up if they want to get on a plane.

So what’s the point of us being there? Bring ‘em home. Have some balls Gillard.

Woz says:

01:58pm | 29/12/10

94.7% of all statistics are made up.

MelD says:

03:33pm | 29/12/10

Rufus, it doesn’t matter what ‘Most of Australia” want, and those are awesome statics there, what matters is that our ALLIES are there so therefore we have to be. simple as that and in comparrisson US has lost more troops than us so in pure numbers we are winning

jeffb says:

06:31pm | 29/12/10

MelD, thats completely wrong. Theres no alliance that requires Australia to be in Afghanistan. I suggest you actually take a look at the ANZUS alliance or at least google it before you make more comments about what Australia is required to do.

MelD says:

09:21am | 30/12/10

Jeffb - this is an OPINION blog and as such this is my opinion, I have no need to read anything so mundane or tedious, why would I care to? I don’t care that we have troops over there, I don’t care that others think we should get out, since when do any governemt listen to what the whining population want?

jeffb says:

01:07pm | 30/12/10

MelD, If you don’t care about the troops or the war why are you posting your opinion on it?

Theres a difference between posting your opinion and stating that our alliances require our presence in Afghanistan.

Classic says:

07:42pm | 28/12/10

That’s rubbish Henry.  The same respect was given to our troops in Iraq.  The “blame the troops” comes from the Vietnam War.  Lehmo does a great job in his article, but not so you can throw party politics into it.

Soldier says:

01:22pm | 29/12/10

@ Classic. Those comments from J. Howard were in response to troops recieving alot less than the support you think they were getting. In Townsville (Australia’s largest Garrison City) some troops were getting spat on in the local shops (and the ensuing ‘scuffle’), this led to the local Commander issueing the order that all Army personnel were not to be seen in public wearing Uniform. This obviously had quite a reaction amongst the troops and those that supported them and the order was pulled (i believe) by Howard himself.

mike says:

08:42am | 29/12/10

My thoughts exactly PaulB. The troops are not all saints. The biggest assignment in afganistan must be the media section in our deployment. All those puff pieces (including comedians visiting the troops). What we see on australian TV is not the war, but defense force media management.

Renegade says:

10:16am | 28/12/10

My brother is a serving member and has done a couple of three-month stints overseas. The money is good for sure, but more valuable is the experience, but the experience is invaluable - not just on a personal level but for our armed forces generally.

The experience for our military - particularly our elite forces who are at the point end of the counter-terrorism and -insurgency efforts - is priceless as the world moves towards resource-based wars. We have people sitting here at home screaming that “its all about oil” while they twiddle away on their iPhone (plastic components - made from petrochemicals) and sip their environmentally-friendly, support-the-third-world-farmers latte (transported across the world using petroleum in various forms).

When it comes to the crunch, having troops experienced in actual war zones will come in handy when our security is directly under threat, from forces either external or domestic. When people turn their eyes to our mining reserves we’ll need a deterrent and don’t believe for a minute that the US will have time to come and help.

Operational excellence is the cornerstone of our military, not size or technology. That is the way it will always be, and I am thankful that we have people volunteering to put their lives on the line to do a bloody hard job so that my nation can benefit.

In addition, people often underestimate the benefits we’re giving to the people of Afghanistan, who desperately want to enjoy the freedom from oppression that we all have.

Shane From Melbourne says:

11:07am | 28/12/10

@Renegade- you do know that every dollar that goes into “operational experience” is one less dollar that goes into capital equipment? That wars like Afghanistan actually degrade combat effectiveness by not only leaching from the capital equipment budget but also due to deaths, physical injuries, post traumatic stress syndrome, low retention rates (due to burn out) etc.

L says:

12:39pm | 28/12/10

Having done deployments; after the first you’d never do one for money.

rufus says:

05:50am | 29/12/10

Renegade - this line about ‘when our security is directly threatened’ is war propaganda - you should realise that. There is no conceivable threat to our security that justifies our blind willingness to jump into any US-led war anywhere on the globe.

MelD says:

03:37pm | 29/12/10

so Rufus you are waiting for the day like the movie Tomorrow when the war began? will you only then believe that it is worth it? I bet when that day comes you will be one of the first to go.

Jim says:

10:53am | 28/12/10

Is it Heather? Public perception is driven by the media, and as soon as a soldier is killed over there who do the media swarm to? Idiot anti-everything pinkos who spew forth their holier-than-thou opinions on the war.
The don’t come and interview people like you and me, do they?

MK says:

03:28pm | 29/12/10

@The Real Dave
With Reference to Iraq and afgansitan
Why did we go to war?
What was the war supposed to Achieve?
What has the war achieved?

In Afganistan we were initally Hunting for Osama Bin Laden?
push out the Taliban, opened the door for the warlords,
Drug production through the roof up 500% in the first few years
10 years on in unwinnable war with no exit plan

Iraq, we invaded a secular moderatly islamic country,
Searching for WMDs
Got rid of a dictactor that was at odds with AlQuaeda,
In Effect Created a new Rallying point for all the extremist militant muslims around the world, to come and fight the evil infidels,
long protacted conflict,

Iran has the links to Alqueda is run by muslim extremesit and is much more likely to have nuclear weapons.

Why did we invade Iraq?

jeffb says:

02:21pm | 28/12/10

The whole point of the war in Afghanistan was to remove Al-Qaeda and install a democratic government in place of the Taliban. While they have removed Al-Qaeda they have failed to bring about democracy and until something is done about Karzai and the rampant corruption what is the point in send more soldiers into a no-win situation?

Its time the politicians showed some of the courage they expect from our soldiers and dealt with the core issues.

“If you don’t support the war then go to China”

Perhaps you should? Their limited education system would be much easier on you and doesn’t have any focus at all on free thinking which would seem to suit you perfectly.

Shane From Melbourne says:

03:10pm | 28/12/10

Yep. China prefers to invest billions of dollars in clean energy technology research rather than blow it on an unwinnable war. But don’t worry, they’ll sell the technology to your children and grandchildren. Hell, they’ll even lend you the money. It may mean that your children and grandchildren are debt slaves to China for the rest of their lives, but that’s better that the threat of Al Qaeda, an organization Australian intelligence sources regard as a “failure” .....

stephen says:

05:08pm | 28/12/10

I was going to reply to your earlier post Shane From Melbourne but you appear not to want to fight the fire because it may stretch the hose.
Nothing I can do for you.
Mr Karzai from Pakistan harbours the Taliban which has as much against their enemy India as they do against the West, so why fight 2 fires when you don’t have to fight any.
(Shane’s hose now is a goner.)
This is the sort of game we are playing in Pakistan, where they have recently refused the US further access to their borders to ‘drone’ out the insurgents. A solution is this : withdraw forces and the money the US is giving Karzai to patrol its borders, wait 2 years, then offer assistance to India to settle Kashmir and its subsequent stoush with Pakistan.
Karzai’s waiting game is a death game.

Gregg says:

07:27pm | 28/12/10

jeff the joker,
It was all about lets get Osama full stop and nothing about democracy which might be an added on thought here and there but if the majority of people in Afghanistan are of the Pashtun supporting the Taliban, where’s the democracy and I wouldn’t be too sure about removing Al Qaeda.

Now not too sure what China has to do with Af other than having a small border and the possibility one day of deciding they might as well run it but Shane, as far as clean energy technology you do not need to research it too much to know of nuclear and hydro and the three gorges plan is the largest hydro generator ever built and whilst they are building some nuclear power stations, they are still burning plenty of coal too.
http://www.netl.doe.gov/coal/refshelf/ncp.pdf and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_policy_of_China will give you an insight.

Scot says:

08:36pm | 28/12/10

Stephen. You are wrong. China has a policy of not interfering in other countries internal affairs.

Steve Smith says:

10:23pm | 28/12/10

You know Stephen, if you don’t support the way.. you still have the option of staying in Australia. It’s not illegal to stay in this country and not support the war, in the same way you don’t actually have to love this country or leave it. Although this might not be in accordance to bumper stickers in The Shire.

notsurprised says:

09:06am | 29/12/10

Hey Scott, ever heard of Taiwan or Tibet?

jeffb says:

02:29pm | 29/12/10

So Gregg, the plan was to remove Al-Qaeda and the Taliban, catch Osama and what… leave a total power vaccum?... Thats a pretty funny joke.

petery says:

06:05am | 02/01/11

WoW- very poetically expressed but needs a bit of rewriting to make it less nonsensical in places. What were the old leathered nazis supposing,you don’t say,  and I am stuffed if i know what a spot check emotional range is. You appear to share the belief of my drinking buddies at the pub,that all poetry is basically crap, so it does not matter what you write.

HeatherG says:

11:09pm | 28/12/10

I have nothing but the utmost respect for soldiers, past and present (my father was one), however, I would rather ask the few boys I know who are over there now what they think than rely on the opinions of past soldiers who fought a different war for different reasons.

Granted, my mates’ opinions may not be the majority, and I cannot speak for Australian soldiers as a whole (obviously), but the biggest frustration they have voiced to me is the inability of the general populous to 1) understand the difference between the campaigns in Afghanistan and Iraq, 2) understand the difference between the jobs that the US troops and Australian troops do, and 3) whether people say they “support the troops but not the war” is largely irrelevant to them, given the misunderstandings of the first 2 points—and their feeling is that these are mostly driven by “media brainwashed society.”

TimB says:

04:55pm | 28/12/10

I think you nail it there notSue: You *don’t* know why they join the army. By the same token you don’t know why our soldiers think that they’re doing necessary and useful work over there.

As far as I’m concerned, as long as our soldiers are of the opinion that they should stay, then they should stay. They, more than anyone else have the information required to decide whther they’re presence is doing any good and whether or not it is worth it.

This is why I have to disagree with Lehmo somewhat. I can see what he’s trying to get at by saying you can support the troops but not the war. But I don’t think you can- at least not fully, not in this case.
Supporting the troops also means supporting their desire to stay and continue on with the job.

notSue says:

06:04pm | 28/12/10

Well, TimB, in speaking to my nephew who served in Afghanistan (admittedly, only as a lowly private) the impression I got from him was nothing to do with *why* they were there, but whilst they were there, they had a job to do, and they must so it to their best abliity. He found it dangerous work (even more so for the Americans) and didn’t question the politics, he was too busy watching his and his mates’ arse!

The troops who believe we must stay there are obviously from the command classes. Ask the average soldier and they’ll say they do as they’re told. Simple as that.

DW says:

10:54pm | 28/12/10

Love it or hate it, a career in the military can have you here in Australia or overseas delivering aid packages to tsunami victims, rescuing burnt asylum seekers from the water after their boat explodes in tme middle of the ocean or in the mountains of afghanistan patrolling for enemy fighters.

What kind of impact will you leave on history? How will the history books remeber your name? the men and women of the ADF know that they have impacted history and their mark will live on.

TheRealDave says:

03:15pm | 29/12/10

You may want to check a few newspaper articles notSue but befoer any humanitarian work could be done Diggers needed to push out the Indon backed West Timorese militia groups which resulted in several contacts, several wounded Australian soldiers and quite a few militia deaths.

We didn’t just waltz in and start handing out smiles and rainbows.

notSue says:

12:22am | 01/01/11

@ TheRealDave
Don’t quite understand your obejction to my mention of the fact that not *all* work done by Aussie military forces is agressive. Granted, they had to secure the situation first, but surely an army that is utised in improving the circumstances of the local populace is a good thing??

TimB says:

09:40am | 29/12/10

I’m well aware of the fact that the civilians are the ones that make the decisions.
But when judging whether we should be there or not, I’m of the firm opinion that the military’s views should be taken into consideration in any discussion, particularly given that they are the people on the ground. And I give their opinion far more weight than any armchair commentators *here*.

The government plainly agrees, considering they do have their military advisors for just the reason I indicated, and the fact that they remain committed to the fight.

Scot says:

10:52pm | 29/12/10

Stephen the Sth. Koreans do not have to worry about China. China is not territorial. You need to turn your head to the middle east for the slow cancer that is invading by stealth because we are naive fools and weak. I agree that Iran is a very serious threat to us all. How ever we may be fortunate as Iran has a big drug problem because of Afghanistan and Iran threatening to destroy Israel and our fool Foreign Minister. India is too busy trying to impress China, how brilliant they are, all PR hype on their part as China is many years ahead of them. Pakistan must stop the cancer with the allies.

petery says:

10:59am | 02/01/11

A follow up to what i said above. Our troops are overseas because it is government policy, and yes they have opinions,but it is up to government to decide,not them, as to whether they come home or not. The government should be listening to what the troops say, but it also should take into account opinions of other governments and parties involved. The government may make a wrong decision in the end, but the commanders there have to follow their instructions and follow government policy, as Australia is not a military dictatorship. Unfortunately, as anyone who works in lower levels of government, knows,  generally the opinions of people who do most of the work are relatively unimportant to the people who make policy, and it is the same with soldiers serving in war.

If we are not clearly wanted,or our presence there is doing more harm than good, then they troops should go home. We should not be dictating to Afghanistan or anywhere else   that our presence is essential,otherwise in terms of behaviour,that makes us not much different to the Russians, or all the other foreign invaders that have attempted to rule Afghanistan over the last few hundred years.