Don’t mention the class war

ZSRenn says:

07:18am | 11/08/11

Yesterday, too many sheep, tried to blame this on race! It is not, and it saddens me to see, that not only do we have so many sheep in Australia, but so many eager racists willing to blame multiculturalism and race. It is scapegoat, and whilst you are blaming race, the 1% who own everything have their hand in your pockets, in the now biannual stock market collapse. They remain unscathed earning money/ transaction whilst Ma & Pa investors are left bleeding from the ears and your superannuation torn to shreds. But go on, they will point the finger and say race, you just keep following their lead to slaughter.

Come on punchers I thought you were a smarter lot than this! Bahhhhhhhhhhh, Bahhhhhhhhhh.

Sceptic says:

07:42am | 11/08/11

It’s a struggle isn’t it ZSRenn?

KH says:

07:48am | 11/08/11

Have a look at the ‘rogues gallery’ of suspects.  I think you will find they come from all races, including caucasian.

max headroom says:

07:52am | 11/08/11

There aren’t half some twaddle articles written in the media, mostly from highly educated people who have lived protected lives funded by mummy and daddy given everything they want. They have no idea of the causes of this sort of mayhem. I’ll tell you the cause high immigration of people who in the main through lack of education or strict religious beliefs or even the colour of their skin find it hard to get a job or assimilate into the culture and that’s what has happened in the UK. Compounded by a society where the need to work for pride or just to survive is no longer an issue. In the UK the government dependent society now can apply for a free car with the provision of a doctors letter saying walking and taking public transport could prove difficult. And that’s being rorted big time, my brother in law works for cash as a gardener and last year was given a brand new mid size Peugeot because of his back problems! My guess is whats happened in Britain and previously in France is a direct result of socialist leaning government gaining multiple terms in power.

PS
The Bus that was set alight at the start of the riots all the patrons were taken off by a large group of black youths they were all robbed then they set the bus on fire. A major electrical store was ransacked the owner claimed 100 black youths did the deed. The interviewer asked there must have been some white youths involved. The owner said yes 1 me! If you have relations in the UK ask them what’s been going on and the ethnicity of the majority of the rioters

Knemon says:

08:54am | 11/08/11

Erick one day…Sceptic the next!

Sceptic says:

08:55am | 11/08/11

@KH

Okay so if we forget the issue started over a black man pointing a gun at Police, black people then took to the streets and the majority of participants captured on any medium are black, then I guess you are right, it’s not racial at all.

Thomas Anderson says:

09:13am | 11/08/11

Well, if by the ‘have nots’ you mean bored thieves out to take advantage of their own country, and by the ‘haves’, the modest local shop owners, then yes, it is a war between classes.

Tim says:

09:17am | 11/08/11

Sceptic,
what vision or photos are you looking at?
Everything i’ve seen shows just as many white low-lifes as black low-lifes.
Sure it probably started as a race riot but it’s far beyond that now.

Paul says:

09:24am | 11/08/11

We’re all the same humans dummy.

gobsmack says:

09:26am | 11/08/11

@Sceptic
At least you can’t blame the muslims for this one.

Jaxon J says:

09:32am | 11/08/11

Right on brother, they are indeed race riots. However shhhhhh don’t mention the race, you might offend someone whilst they are in the middle of looting, we can’t have that can we.

Tim says:

09:37am | 11/08/11

Oh and ZSRenn,
as I told you yesterday, If you don’t like where your Superannuation is then move it.
If you want a guaranteed return, take it out of the stockmarket and put it in cash
You control it, so if you lose money then you have no one to blame but yourself.
I though Punchers were smarter than this.

Luke says:

10:21am | 11/08/11

How is this a race riot?  Typical - people only looking at London and forgetting about the rest of the UK.  Look at Manchester, rioters were of all races and colours.  There are some huge issues in the UK but simply putting it down to race is sticking your head in the sand.  On the flip side, I’m proud of those communities which have stuck together and fought off the spoilt brats who are just out to nick and burn other people’s hard earned things.

The righteous one says:

10:26am | 11/08/11

@sceptic, a POLICE investigation has proven he didnt point a weapon at anyone.  This “rioting” may have started of as support for the shot man, but has been hijacked by young scumbags who realise they face a police service not a police force, which is hamstrung by political correctness and complaints and lawsuits everytime they try to do their job.  If you think Australia is over the top with PC go to England and look at the things people are not allowed to do because it might upset someone.  We are not even out of PC daycare compared to the UK.  I have to agree that this is just wanton criminality at the moment, but it was brought about by PC gone mad.  They should have sprayed them with watercanon loaded with indelible dye, then pick them up at leasure.  This wasnt down to race except that young scumbags of all ethnicities took part.

chungo mung says:

10:28am | 11/08/11

Hit it ZS, on the head. The initial incident involved race, and it seems the racists everywhere want to hold onto that to wear the race agenda for a while. I too thought punchers were better than this, but ignorance and bigotry are for the intelligent and the stupid. Stone age liberal had a nice philosophical point about race yesterday but reason has no place in the realm of hatred and otherness.

The narrowness of those who can’t evolve their ideas and perspectives in the face of evidence offers nothing to the debate but ignorance. Racial lines can often be drawn quite closely to class lines in societies but when these protests/riots have clearly been bandwagoned by the have-nots and those that are disgruntled regardless of skin or eyes or heritage, it is obvious that using these events to argue against multiculturalism and tolerance is a mere and pathetic ploy.

Snake says:

10:30am | 11/08/11

Racial or not, Police need to move in quickly with GUNS. Not batons and shields and dogs. They need guns. I don’t care if that is what started this. Sacrifice a few low life scumbags and watch the mob dissipate. 10-20 people might get shot and wind up injured or dead but it is a small price to pay to relieve this anarchy.

The political embarassment of bringing in the military hasn’t happened yet…. If it gets to that, it’s just the cops admitting defeat and we all know they can’t do that.

These mobs find sanctuary in numbers, the fastest and most efficient way to dwindle those numbers is to start culling them like the pests that they are.

Don’t know about you, but I’m eagerly awaitng the bloodshed.

Frank says:

11:01am | 11/08/11

Umm please correct me if I’m wrong but watching the news coverage it seems like they are only interviewing the ‘black’ population who seem to be the main populace of those areas which are rioting?

FrankR says:

11:39am | 11/08/11

@ max headroom,
I think you just described jill singer to a tee. unortunately, she’ll never know what we think of her. she would never be seen or heard in the same places as the great unwashed like us.

max headroom says:

12:01pm | 11/08/11

Chungo-mung have-nots in the UK! What! free housing, free cars, free heating, free furniture and the lovely dole money ever fortnight. It is 90% by race not racial and its about integration and assimilation and education. putting your head in the sand only causes problem to get worse.

And lack of jobs especially in manufacturing has been greatly impacted by the union demands and influence especially over the Blair Socialist Labour government.

LeftRightOut says:

01:14pm | 11/08/11

I don’t think it’s just about race, but that factor does fit into the overall picture.
It’s about “culture” - the culture that has been allowed to develop over a long period of time. Immigration is part of that cultural change, but so is the old “soccer hooligan” culture, which is what this has sadly become.
Gang violence in the UK has been a problem for a long, long time, the same thugs are taking advantage of this situation, soft [non] policing, and running rampant right across the country.

So race isn’t the only factor, but it IS a factor - the real cause is actually the [UK] Labour party (immigration and social policy). Political damage done over a generation. The Tory party need to take solid political action to try and ease this for the future - you have to take an economists look at this, the policy failures of years ago, are coming home to roost - policy changes made today, will take a decade or more to have any impact.

John A Neve says:

01:34pm | 11/08/11

Many of the comments above touch on aspects of this violence, but all avoid the most important issue, population.
As the world population builds, resulting in more unemployed and a widening of the financial gulf, these outbreaks will increase.
Governments will have to cut back of all sorts of services and has been seen in Greece and other places, the people will revolt.
Public discontent is world wide and getting worse, even the posts on this site suggest an increase polarisation of the public’s view.
To fix the problem, you first have to admit it exists.

max headroom says:

02:41pm | 11/08/11

Left right out, Its culture and attitude and more I remember the drug wars in Moss Side Manchester 20 years ago between the black west Indians and pakistanis. Gun shots nearly every night. One night I heard a sub machine gun being used and that was it for me I bailed out. OZ here I come. the cops never ventured in to the area after nightfall and who could blame them.

PS anyone who doesnt appreciate this wonderful warm and welcoming and safe land needs much stronger meds

stockinbingal roo says:

05:48pm | 11/08/11

Yes it’s the races who wear HOODIES, ban the hoodies!

mattkas says:

06:55pm | 11/08/11

John A Neve: Absolutely spot on comment on overpopulation. Over 60 million, highly urbanised people crowded into a tiny country with a massive underclass. A long term solution to this anarchy would be government subsidised birth control, big time.

chungo mung says:

07:18pm | 11/08/11

fair call on the ‘have nots’ max, perhaps I should say - the ‘i wants’. What these people don’t have is self respect, real lives and genuine self worth, nor education or much empathy.

I would definitely agree that half the problem for these people is that they have an incredible sense of self entitlement, too much of life is way to easy for them, and that they exist as an underclass - that is not considered with inteligence by modern thinking - be it leftist or conservative.

The wealth of the world (the main goal of the modern society) is not a sensible simple end - there are many gaps and overswights in such a path and thus, in wealthy london, where the have nots are not having intangible but very important things - it all boils over into mindless rage.

ZSRenn says:

08:35pm | 11/08/11

Nice one Punchers! Yesterday you were all pointing the finger at race and today you having a shot at the poor.

Not only that but we have Tim telling us we should only put our super in to low risk super or cash, because only the 1%, have the right to gain maximum benefit from the stock market, and they should be allowed to manipulate the market at will, to gain maximum profit at our loss.

You are all nothing but sheep and just follow the Sheppard’s bidding whilst you allow 10% of the Australian people to live under the poverty line while the 1% holds 90% of the wealth.

This is the real problem the disparity of wealth, and the rich have everyone on their side lauding them as heroes, pointing their finger at the poor, through the press,

“Look it is their fault if they were not on welfare they would be better citizens!”

Meanwhile ignoring the fact that if they let go of just 1% of their wealth go to build better schools, create jobs or at least a fairer system we would not have this problems we face today.

In Canberra they just want to introduce a tax that will do nothing but drive more people into the lower echelons of the economy, creating more poor with the pie in the sky view of saving 0.016% of global CO2 emissions.

Sorry you are not sheep, you are lemmings headed for the cliff!

AusEnglander says:

09:57pm | 11/08/11

Just to set the record street, Duggan was not driving the taxi, he was the passenger.  For the best coverage,and comments,  the Beeb can’t be beaten.

Bruce says:

12:03am | 12/08/11

There are NO excusses. These sub-humans want to act like animals, then these sub-humans need to be treated like animals. Catch them all, put them in a cage for 10 years or more. Those sub-humans who are under age, make them clean up the mess for 12 months and put the parents in a cage for a while.

acotrel says:

07:46am | 12/08/11

@Tim
‘I told you yesterday, If you don’t like where your Superannuation is then move it.’

That’s OK as long as we don’t run foul of the dodgy laws relating to super, and end up handing a bundle to the ATO!

You will not publish this says:

12:25pm | 12/08/11

Born in the UK to Jamaican parents I’ve lived in all the places bar Manchester were the disturbances have been. I now live in Australia.
I’ve lived in Greece US and Thailand. All these places have the same problem, huge amounts of under classes living in communities were there voices are not heard by the middle classes business owners, police, and politicians. They support these shops that are set up in the communities yet most of them can not get jobs in them. I by know means condone violence but I used to leave my Hackney address of my CV due to employers not wanting to interview me. How long can people go on white or black whilst the rich get richer the poor just die poorer. It can happen anywhere White areas Black areas don’t believe everything you see or hear. The media images of the UK showed black youths in hoods saying they had a chance to be heard wrongly or rightly they took it at the expense of the police the politicians and the wider community who may I say are the brothers sisters mothers fathers of the same kids on the street. Its time to look past the bullshit that we have been spoon fed and see the wider picture.
That is Black people White Asians Sub continent people do not want to live under constant silence of in justice.

Super D says:

08:08am | 11/08/11

Actually you could argue that this is the result of not enough class segregation.  In Australian cities the welfare class is pushed to the city fringes or corralled into certain fairly well delineated areas.  By contrast in London welfare ghettoes are interspersed throughout the city such that you’re rarely more than a kilometre or so away from a cluster of welfare dependent malcontents.

Joseph Logan says:

09:05am | 11/08/11

The footage shows predominantly black people who are rioting out of control.
It shows the envy,hatred,resentment and the shocking racism against whites.
People are still afraid to tell the truth.

Osiris Fox says:

09:50am | 11/08/11

Super D: Interesting you should mention that. In fact, that is a strategy designed by the socialists in order to “force” the communities to integrate. The hope is the the richer part would slowly absorb the poorer part and the wealth would disperse (or rub off) into the poorer part and equalize eventually. They have talked in the past of doing the same thing in South Africa. Pathetic social engineering really with no grounding in reality. Pie in the sky stuff. Though, one can understand the end goal, humanity just doesn’t work like that. It is a recipe for disaster, especially when it doesn’t pan out as planned and then you have the perception of the richies rubbing their wealth into the noses of the poories. And you now know the end result of that experiment.

fml says:

10:20am | 11/08/11

Super D,

Not enough class segregation? are you one of those people who complain about immigrants not integrating too?

John C says:

10:34am | 11/08/11

This has nothing to do with poverty or class segregation. It is all about criminal scum acting in criminal ways.

Sad Sad Reality says:

10:43am | 11/08/11

fml, they’ve had their shot. The above videos are the results.

fml says:

10:57am | 11/08/11

Who are they exactly, SSR?

They are english nationals, what are they going to do with them? Throw them in jail? send them to Australia? No they have to deal with the social issues and why they arose.

Frank says:

11:04am | 11/08/11

Most of the rioters are just taking advantage of the situation…many of them may not have even been involved or know anything about the initial reasons for the revolt much like the Cronulla riots where we saw it being hijacked by people who just wanted to “Lebo Bash”

Sad Sad Reality says:

11:45am | 11/08/11

fml, my response is to completely cut the rioters and their families off from the public teet, force them to work for a living like the rest of society and severely punish anyone who even thinks about stepping out of line. This isn’t a class issue. This is an issue of third world criminals and their welfare babies taking advantage of first world decadence, nothing more.

Joan says:

07:22am | 11/08/11

Thanks Erik for the reference,  a great analysis and after reading it.  it   would seem that many Australian society problems not much different. Les Twentyman in Melbourne has been warning politiciians and anyone who cares to listen for years.

Terry says:

07:23am | 11/08/11

Good article. Thanks for the link.

gobsmack says:

07:34am | 11/08/11

Someone linked a much better article by Brendan O’Neill yesterday.
The things Max Hasting says about the rioting youth can be applied equally to any young person in Britain.  The only difference is that children from middle to upper class upbringings actually get everything they want.
And, if I understand his argument correctly, the root problem is the elevation of personal freedom and material possessions above all else.

Kipling says:

07:36am | 11/08/11

He left out a fair bit of “stuff”.

It is good business (big business) to have an uneducated “underclass” to fill unskilled positions cheaply and as required. Currently not so many required, that is ok too though, it can serve to keep wages low.

It isn’t bad business (big business) to have numerous small businesses damaged or destroyed in ways other than market competition.

The article also takes for granted the idea that there is an inherent ruling class who seemingly know what is best for the ignorant lower class masses. The draconian measures of the past were stopped due to their being somewhat inhumane. Apparently though, that would only be if the measures were applied to the “ruling classes” because those pesky peasants need to be brutalised to be kept in line. That does not “teach” these people, it merely suppresses them. Is that how democracy is supposed to work?

These brutal actions of thuggery whilst impossible to condone at any level are still merely symptomatic of far greater social issues. It is a valid point that these people are now being “heard”. Sadly they are too poorly educated and unused to having a voice that there are unable to articulate their gripes with anything other than bloody-minded violence.

The writer also goes on to say they show no allegiance to Great Britain… Curiously, the dispossessed do not need to show allegiance, they are dispossessed. That sword cuts both ways.

The harsh and sad reality is that it will require brute force to stop these mobs most likely. On the one hand this is appropriate because the mob is punishing an awful lot of innocent people in their rage. Of course, on the other hand, the brute violence required to stop them will be nothing more than a punitive measure to treat the current symptom, however, the real problems will largely remain unaddressed in the interests of market position…

Anne_N says:

08:15am | 11/08/11

A friend commented that the U.K. situation reminded him of ‘A Clockwork Orange’.  I think it’s more like ‘Farenheit 451’.  When the fireman Guy encounters teenage Clarisse on his way home from work and he asks her why she doesn’t hang out with her peers, she says “They scare me”....

Annie says:

08:32am | 11/08/11

UK socialism created the nanny state, they encouraged single motherhood, endorsed ‘spare the rod spoil the child’ attitudes, cut back on police powers, then Blair’s government handed over responsibility to the Europeans.

Sadly Australia is on the same path - too many children not learning to read and write in their first school years and inappropriate discipline when they commit a crime due to their age.

Hamish says:

09:04am | 11/08/11

There’s no doubt this is the product of cradle-to-grave welfare’s inevitable enslavement of generations to chronic disadvantage. The question is how long before similar things begin to occurr in Australia? It is not Britain’s traditional class-system which has created these riots, but the creation of a hereditary welfare class of abject losers. We have exactly the same people in Australia.

Bev says:

09:15am | 11/08/11

“Years of liberal dogma have spawned a generation of amoral, uneducated, welfare dependent, brutalised youngsters.”

Thats the symtoms and a broad brush of what has happened but in order to find the root causes you have to look deeper.  The most basic element of society is the family.  It is responsible for raising children to be well adjusted responsible adults, pulling together through good and bad and be a unit of comfort and support for its members.  Through out history it has ever been so.  Cue feminism one of which their basic tenents is to destroy the family so women can be free.  How to do this? Make divorce easy and with the help of the social engineers foster single motherhood by telling woman dad is not needed as the state will supply the money/support they need.  There’s problem one mothers and fathers impart and supply the different elements children need in their upbringing. Neither can supply all the elements. Mothers provide the nuture more so than fathers and fathers supply the moral and ethical limits/lessons more so than mothers. Now bring on the next tenent. Feminism has decreed that the education system become biased towards girls, couple that with a social engineering down grading of the three “R"s and boys drop out of the system as uneducated morons. While in many cases girls do not do much better. Add to that an engineered view of society/history that preaches that our society is sexist and our forbearers are nothing more than a bunch of colonial thugs to destroy any sense of pride in nation.  Now engineer our justic system so that when youth (mainly boys) are unemployable or have no work ethic and get into trouble slap them over the wrist with a limp noodle instead of forcefully getting the message through that laws are applicable to all and upbring is no excuse. Now cue the corporations, consumerism and the throw away society.  Get the message out that your worth is measured by what you wear and the very latest widget you own.  Add another element multiculturism to break down communities having a common purpose and pride in their area to separate cultural enclaves (which encourages racism) with only a vague sense of community.  Lastly engineer your police force to be more interested in cultural sensitivity rather than their real purpose stopping crime.

Stand back and watch society tear itself to bits.

Kika says:

09:23am | 11/08/11

Erick - so if the UK was free of uneducated, amoral, brutalised youngsters prior to the creation of their welfare state - WHY DID THEY SEND THEIR CONVICTS HERE IN THE FIRST PLACE?

hawker says:

09:27am | 11/08/11

Reckon you could learn a lot more about this phenomenon from a child psychologist than a Daily Mail columnist.

Gregg says:

10:24am | 11/08/11

@Kipling
” The article also takes for granted the idea that there is an inherent ruling class who seemingly know what is best for the ignorant lower class masses. The draconian measures of the past were stopped due to their being somewhat inhumane. Apparently though, that would only be if the measures were applied to the “ruling classes” because those pesky peasants need to be brutalised to be kept in line. That does not “teach” these people, it merely suppresses them. Is that how democracy is supposed to work? “

You need to have a re-read for references to the ruling class are more for the nineteeth century and the fear that led to transportation to colonies and yes, all that is a far cry from what happens in current times.

Sure there are those now and there will always be those in societies who are better off, be it through silver spoon or sheer hard work and they may form a ruling class if you like and there can be politicians who have come from a wealthy background or not, House of Lords an exception.

The article also includes
” It is because it is fantastically hard to help such people, young or old, without imposing a measure of compulsion which modern society finds unacceptable. These kids are what they are because nobody makes them be anything different or better. ” and that also is of much truth.

The end result is if you’re uneducated or poorly educated and less skilled work dries up your unemployment pool grows whilst you still have more people trying to get to the UK ( and Europe ) and so with only so much to go around, crime will flourish and we have seen the opportunism crime of these riots.

There is not going to be an easy fix to something like this and with the Olympics just around the corner there is no time but for the heavy hand of the law and many more jails to be developed if there is to be a clean up.
I’d expect that right now there will be many people about the globe who may have considered heading to London in 12 months time to be having second thoughts, also possibly many more given global economics and these riots are a massive hit to local economics, already damage estimates in the hundreds of millions $$$/pound and then there are all the businesses who have basically had their business demolished, huge stock losses and people made homeless, total fallout and snowball effect likely to be enormous.

I really wonder how long it’ll be before some of our major countries start reviewing the benefits of WTO level playing field principles and their immigration policies, not to mention coming down far harder on asylum seekers and refugees.

We in Australia are relatively lucky with our smallish problem for a lot of middle eastern refugees are heading through Iran and Turkey to get to Greece where they may be temporarily detained before being set free on the proviso they leave within a month.
It is not suspected that many leave and rather head from the fronteir town towards Athens.
Greece being what it is and the Italians and Spain having similar issues, there are more and more who’ll likely head to places like France and the UK.

The problems ain’t about to get any better anytime soon.
And yes, Australia needs to take note, especially the high court judges and the government had better get going on changing the laws if need be so they cannot be over-ruled by the courts.

Gregg says:

10:28am | 11/08/11

@Kika,
Read the entire linked article and not just Erick’s two liner.

You will see reference to the nineteenth century, transportation and lots more, like comparisons to Polar Bears and their natural instinct, a difference being the Polar Bear got shot!

The righteous one says:

10:38am | 11/08/11

@kika dont mention that the original boat people that came to Australia were white, you could send the rednecks into a tailspin

Knemon says:

11:15am | 11/08/11

Thanks for the link Erick, here’s another one.

These riots are due to the failure of Neoliberal Capitalism.

http://counterpunch.org/nafeez08102011.html

...and another one

Austerity and Anarchy: Budget Cuts and Social Unrest in Europe,
1919-2009

http://www.voxeu.org/sites/default/files/file/DP8513.pdf

“Austerity has tended to go hand in hand with politically motivated violence and social instability”

The causes appear to be many; the blame game is even greater.

Kipling says:

11:22am | 11/08/11

@Greg,

Mate, I have no dispute with most of what you say. Of course, I think this quote from the actual article,
“Today, those at the bottom of society behave no better than their forebears, but the welfare state has relieved them from hunger and real want.
When social surveys speak of ‘deprivation’ and ‘poverty’, this is entirely relative. Meanwhile…”

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2024284/UK-riots-2011-Liberal-dogma-spawned-generation-brutalised-youths.html#ixzz1Ug6PnonD;

is clearly articulating a lower class, without actually saying a lower class. In context of the entire piece it is patently clear to my mind. Further, it is patently clear that the author is advocating some level of “draconian” measure be implemented. He is not saying education he states very clearly “It is because it is fantastically hard to help such people, young or old, without imposing a measure of compulsion which modern society finds unacceptable. These kids are what they are because nobody makes them be anything different or better.”
That is not about education that is all about compulsion.

It is because of “compulsion” that throughout history there have been constantly recycled moments of mob violence and the need for the (self imposed) ruling classes to snap them back into place. At times, this has backfired and history glorifies those moments as revolutions about freedom and democracy… Am I alone in seeing the irony of that?

A genuine analysis of these riots would be to more honestly and diligently explore the long history of inter class violence and repression and see it for what it is, a few exercising harsh measures to implement power and control over the many. At times, the many exercise through limited means a capacity to rebel. They have neither the resources nor the means to compete with the “chosen” few on the same playing field.

Tedd says:

11:22am | 11/08/11

The problem with your argument, the righteous one, is that the aboriginals have been shown to be at least the third inhabitancies of this country, so they have no more right to it than the white settlers.

Al Chunk says:

11:46am | 11/08/11

Only in Australia - a Max Hastings article actually being recommended to be read, the world’s gone mad.

Shama says:

11:47am | 11/08/11

How can there be “years of liberal dogma” when Britain had years of Thatcher and Major, the US had the Republicans till not long back and Australia had years of Howard?

Fact is no one has a clue as to why this happened.  And everyone is pinning it on what they hate most in society.  Surprised you haven’t blamed single women as yet.

RyaN says:

12:51pm | 11/08/11

@Shama: you are kidding right? Please tell me you are kidding because you seem to have a black hole in your memory right where that leftie Labour guy that threw open the doors of the UK to every scum bag in the world, you know Tony Blair, the one whose wife made millions of dollars off “refugees”!

Adam Diver says:

12:56pm | 11/08/11

@ Shama, careful your bias and by extension hypocrisy is showing. Only the left would assume that the government has control of all the institutions, central planning and all that.

For example whilst we had a conservative government in this country for over a decade, our justice system, media outlets and educational facilities all have a very strong left emphasis as well as our state governments and most local goverments. 

Liberal dogma, does not exist solely with or without a small L, liberal government. Don’t be so foolish.

Shama says:

01:05pm | 11/08/11

RyaN trying to be clever?

Who can forget Blair, best mates with Bush and Howard.

I am just objecting to the stupidity of claiming that liberal dogma is some all powerful beast at the root of every problem when governments keep changing all the time.  The reverse also holds true btw.

RyaN says:

01:18pm | 11/08/11

@Shama: sure but trying to ignore rather than discredit an argument surely isn’t going to work too well.

Shama says:

01:34pm | 11/08/11

Adam, RyaN I can guess your politics but anyway I am not avoiding an argument.

Its exactly my point that there is a counter balance to everything in society.  I am not saying there is no liberal dogma.  And there are enough small C/Big C counterpoints around - hell, The Punch is one.  Such positions might be enetrtaining but I get sick of comments that blame liberal dogma (or conservative dogma) as the root cause of all evil. Life is a little more complex and grey. One needs to point that out from time to time.

Shama says:

02:57pm | 11/08/11

RyaN and Adam

I did reply to you.

But perhaps the Punch moderators didn’t like it.

Or they are overwhelmed.

Never mind, I will stop here.

Sceptic says:

07:00am | 11/08/11

Quaint interpretation of the cause there Mahhrat.  Completely irrelevant, but quaint none the less.

“These kids simply don’t know why their behaviour is wrong.”

I Call Bullshit.

marley says:

07:06am | 11/08/11

England has a decent public education system.  If you want to go through high school, there’s nothing stopping you. University is less accessible than it was, but you don’t have to have a BA to know that what you’re doing is wrong.  And they do know.  They just don’t care.

Dave says:

07:09am | 11/08/11

“These kids simply don’t know why their behaviour is wrong” - are you serious? Stop making excuses for these pathetic thugs. They know perfectly well that what they are doing is wrong. That’s why they hide their faces under hoodies and balaclavas - to prevent being identified by the police and brought to justice.

Mahhrat says:

08:09am | 11/08/11

@Sceptic - we’ve always had beggars: the people who just can’t adapt to society with no apparently valid reason.  A couple hundred years ago, they wandered the streets, picked pockets and got deported to Australia.  These days, they live in “Commissions” and survive.

To avoid being where these kids are, yes, you need discpline.  Discipline is built through the love and support of people who love you enough to keep you in line.  These kids don’t have that, so they demand attention the only way that works.  Because we don’t like them cluttering up our lives and picking our pockets, we’ve shoved them in hovels and given them social workers who have less compassion than a lioness for the mother of the deer she’s eating.  They are numbers on a page; they know it, and they know it.  If we’re not going to care about their situation, then why should they care about ours?

I’m not excusing the behaviour, I’m explaining it.  Big difference.  They know it’s wrong, but they don’t know WHY it is wrong, because they’ve never had anything to lose.  They see authority and celebrity figures - their idols - doing bad things and getting away with it.

Suddenly, they have the opportunity to do the same thing.  Yes, they know it’s wrong - they’ve been told so - but they don’t know WHY, so they’re going to do it while they have the chance.

Perhaps, once they’ve raised enough racket, someone might finally teach them how to take charge of their own lives, give them back their self respect, and let them manage their own selves.

nihonin says:

08:11am | 11/08/11

Mahrat, keep your head buried in the sand.  We all have an option available and it’s called choice, these maggots have made the choice to break the law and loot and attack, for no other reason other than they truly do believe life and society owe them a living and everything they want.

iansand says:

08:31am | 11/08/11

There is a difference between “TThese kids simply don’t know that their behaviour is wrong” and “These kids simply don’t know why their behaviour is wrong”.  You can know the first and not know the second.  We, generally, behave in a law abiding manner because we are aware of our connection to a larger society, and are aware of the benefits that this brings.  If you have no concept of that larger society you may only know that your behaviour is wrong, and not why it is wrong.

Mahhrat says:

09:21am | 11/08/11

I should amend mine slightly - individual workers on their own are incredibly compassionate, but are hamstrung by the places and policies where they work, which most definitely are not.

MarkS says:

09:22am | 11/08/11

They know that their behaviour is wrong. They simply do not care. Why? Becouse they have no self respect & therefore no respect for others.

Dave says:

09:28am | 11/08/11

You are a disgrace Mahrat. To try and justify the violent crimes being committed by these thugs by saying “These kids simply don’t know why their behaviour is wrong” is utter stupidity and ignorance.

You say that they know that it is wrong but they don’t know why????? Are you really so deluded? Do you really think that a thug stealing an HD TV from a store “doesn’t know why it is wrong”?

You, sir, are part of the problem, not the solution.

Tom says:

09:41am | 11/08/11

“These kids simply don’t know why their behaviour is wrong.”
Some people only learn from suffering the consequences of their actions.

Budz says:

10:15am | 11/08/11

Sounds like they are more in need of ethics classes :D :D

Dan says:

10:15am | 11/08/11

You’re quite right Mahhrat.

Education is the key. It’s no mystery why the world’s most stable nations, with the lowest crime rates and highest incomes, are among the world’s most educated.

Britain’s underclass has been a ticking time bomb for some time. Education isn’t a value passed on between generations - it’s a game of milk the Government for what you can.

Those rioting were both white, black, and everything in-between. Anyone trying to tie in race are little more than pathetic opportunists, out to score political points and confirm their dim-witted beliefs.

Kika says:

10:26am | 11/08/11

The British education system is second to none. These kids are generational welfare dependant people who don’t know what work is, that everyone else is to blame for their position in society and that we all owe them. If it wasn’t for the welfare state Mile End and Bow, Brixton and Clapham would all be like 18th and 19th Century slums as they always were.  It’s just these days the slums have council flats on them and the recipients are paid by the government to have some standard of living expected in their wealthy country.

How can you get in a kids head that it’s worth going to school when a) none of their friends care about school b) their parents don’t work c) their parents never cared about school d) they see kids joining gangs and making money from drug dealing e) that hard work and dedication pays off when it’s easier for them not to

It would take a special sort of kid and good decent parents to get out of that vicious cycle.

Mahhrat says:

10:58am | 11/08/11

@Dave, I’m part of the problem insofar as I’m not actively teaching, sure.

@Kika, thank you for that, you explained my point beautifully.  It is very, very hard to break the poverty cycle.

Dave, I’m going to suggest you have hobbies - apart from your job, which you might love or hate, you have things you do in your spare time.

All these kids do is talk to each other.  They don’t have “hobbies” or anything to be passionate about, to build or work towards.  They don’t have to - they’ve grown up watching their parents be “looked after” and themselves be “looked after”.

What’s happening is that they literally do not understand that the things they get provided only happen because someone else works damn hard to create the value in the first place.  I understand it, because I watched my folks do it (and still do it, go online business!).

These kids have been shown none of it.  They’ve only ever been told what to do, never WHY they should do it.  Richard above makes it well as well.

They know stealing is wrong, they know looting is wrong, but they’ve been effectively removed from society, so they have never contributed to it.  Hence, they’re happy for it to be destroyed - after all, you and I both damn well know we’ll re-build the flats.  They’ll get what they want.

The solution is education, instill in them the desire to better themselves, then give them the tools to do it.  Do that, and THEN throw the book at the true clowns who simply won’t function.

Don’t get me wrong @Dave and your ilk, I am all for punishing crime - I think we’re far too soft.  But we’re too soft because we’re too soft the other way as well. 

We just want them to go away.  Well, they’re human and they aren’t going to.

PTom says:

11:10am | 11/08/11

“These kids simply don’t know why their behaviour is wrong”

Correct just look at news reports in the last few years
1)  Corrupt Politicians (false claims)
2)  Corrupt Police (bribes and false killing)
3)  Corrupt Media (bribes and privacy)
4)  Corrupt Companies (Corporate Tax)
5)  Bank being bailed out
And yet we blame the kids.

Hamish says:

11:16am | 11/08/11

Exactly right Kika. The west - where every dole bludger comes with a smartphone and an entitlement mentality. Don’t worry though Kika, there will always be people like fml et al to tell these no-hopers that it’s not their fault. That everyone else owes them a living…and new trainers.

Hamish says:

11:23am | 11/08/11

Yeah good one PTom, blame everyone except the ones looting, bashing people and setting stuff on fire. It’s clearly not their fault. Like, that guy who deliberately ran over those people, he was only doing it because of Rebekah Brooks. So really, Rupert’s the one to blame. I knew it was somehow his fault.

fml says:

11:35am | 11/08/11

Hamish,

Never said it wasnt their fault, im explaining cause and effect. Its too simple to explain everything with bullets and “your a naught boy” attitude. Its not going to get to the reason why this occurred.

You are doing the exact same thing in reverse, removing the blame from an incompetent government, for some reason you see as being beyond reproach despite their failings. The Tory’s government policies are specifically aimed at the marginalising the lower class and creating a sense of calm in the middle class.

Because as we have seen recently, bullets solve everything right? I find it unbelievable. People call for these people to be shot and to remove the welfare, but it was the cutting of benefits and a police shooting which were the catalysts! How is that in anyway logical?

Boss Hog says:

11:55am | 11/08/11

fml, the problem was giving out the welfare in the first place. And education is not the problem either because the educated can be just as helpful / harmful to society as the poor. It’s a values/moral/ content of one’s character problem.

fml says:

12:19pm | 11/08/11

Boss Hog,

the problem wasnt giving out welfare in the first place, society will cease to function without some form of benefits.

” It’s a values/moral/ content of one’s character problem.” Right, so how is the government supposed to control someones values/morals/content of character? Isnt this supposed to be a free country, comments like this seem more appropriate in countries such as China and Iran.

Hamish says:

12:23pm | 11/08/11

fml, the reason why this occurred is that the western welfare state has warped these kids into thinking they somehow deserve a new phone, TV, trainers, etc without having to work, learn or really do anything productive whatsoever. It’s the perfectly logical outcome of giving them money for doing nothing and constantly telling them the reason they’re no hopers isn’t because they’re lazy, illiterate, aggressive criminals, it’s because of their poor-me disadvantaged upbringing and/or racial discrimination or whatever other excuse made up by oh-so-worthy guilty middle-class types.

These problems existed long before the Tories got into power.

fml says:

01:15pm | 11/08/11

Hamish,

“These problems existed long before the Tories got into power.” Thats right they did, but the problems all came to a head when the Torys were in power.

So these kids have an entitlement complex aye? Fine, so what do you expect them to do? Get a job, you say? fine, they try to get a job, due to the Tory’s policies, which are cut public spending, as result people lose their jobs and there are more people looking for work, more people out of work means less people are out spending money, less people spending money means businesses lose money and have to sack employees, which means there are even more unemployed looking for even fewer jobs. Then to top it all off they decrease the benefit, so not only do they have to worry about paying the bills and buying food they have to send their kids to school who see the futility in the system and they have even less money to help search for a job.

The sense of entitlement is not endemic as you suggest but is a result of an inefficient government. I dont agree with the looting, but to brush them all off simply as uneducated lower class thugs is unrealistic middle to upper class apathetic nonsense.

Im not saying there are not opportunistic looters present, but to brush off the entire social concerns of an entire economic class as middle-class guilt is absurd. A couple of months ago 2000 black youths walked peacefully to scotland yard to protest against police harassment and limited work opportunities, they didnt even get a mention in the media. Kick a few doors in and start a few fires and people are starting to take notice.

So they tried it peacefully and get ignored, they asked for more jobs and the government cuts jobs and benefits, what do you suggest they do?

Hamish says:

01:52pm | 11/08/11

fml, maybe they could learn to play the violin? I expect them to solve their own problems. This whole issue has been created by governments giving people money for doing nothing for their whole lives regardless of how unemployable they allow themselves to become. These people have been completely disassociated from the concept of personal responsibility. Cradle to grave welfare creates social problems. It warps people. Humans were never supposed to survive by being fed scraps from the middle-class’s table.

That you assume everyone else should do something to help these poor-me criminals is indicative of the kind of state-centric ‘it’s not their fault’ mentality that helps sustain the chip on their collective shoulders. Making excuses for these scumbags is basically middle to upper class bigotry. You wouldn’t excuse me stealing and burning buildings so why do you excuse them?

PTom says:

02:13pm | 11/08/11

Hamish,

Where did I say the kids are not responsible for their actions? I did say there are reasons that make it hard for kids to know their behaviour is wrong when those in authorities are corrupt.

fml says:

02:46pm | 11/08/11

Hamish,

You are the one with the guilt, not me, i dont think that they shouldnt be punished and i am not excusing their behavior, i am trying to come up with the cause of the riots. If you cant tell the difference well then i dont know what else i can do.

I have not said they are not guilty for breaking the law, the cause of this effect is badly managed government policy. As i asked before, which you ignored, They marched peacefully and were ignored, they rioted and people took notice. what would you do?

The government bail out the banks, now the country is broke, they triple university costs, reduce benefits, and cut public spending, now boris is offering tax cuts to those earning more than 150,000 pounds. Tell me is that not a class issue? Who are the real criminals? Why is the government using the taxes of the majority to pay for the rich minority?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jul/28/boris-johnson-top-rate-tax-cut

AdamC says:

03:46pm | 11/08/11

Fml and Hamish, you are actually both right, in your own different ways. I think fml is correct that the proximate cause of the disaffection of these rioters is the recent programme of cuts to welfare entitlements. However, the root cause, as Hamish points out, is the discredited dependency model itself.

gobsmack says:

04:18pm | 11/08/11

Unfortunately for all of the above posters, many of the people arrested have jobs.
New theory anyone?

Anna C says:

09:04am | 11/08/11

I totally agree. You should never give people money for doing nothing because they won’t respect you for it; as is illustrated by the riots. You always appreciate something more when you have to earn it yourself. The riots just goes to prove that old saying “idle hands make the devil’s work.”

James1 says:

10:33am | 11/08/11

Every single person I have ever met who lives in government subsidised housing always refer to their accommodation as “my house”, and their welfare payments as “my money”.  They see these things as entitlements, rather than a privilege offered to them by working people.  That attitude sickens me.  Have they no pride?

frankr says:

11:56am | 11/08/11

@ james1

you forgot the best, when the dole cheques hit their bank accounts, it’s “payday”

Tony of Poorakistan says:

01:33pm | 11/08/11

There is a petition doing the rounds. It requires 100,000 signatures (and is well on the way) at which time it can be debated by MPs. It is a petition calling on all benefits to these scum to be totally withdrawn. Excellent idea.

James1 says:

03:20pm | 11/08/11

The Australian scum in general, or the British rioting scum in particular Tony? 

I would sign either, but I am pretty sure that only in the case of the former would my signature be relevant.

PTom says:

04:22pm | 11/08/11

James1,

“Every single person I have ever met who lives in government subsidised housing always refer to their accommodation as “my house”, and their welfare payments as “my money”.  “

Guess what buddy I grew up in Public Housing and under Welfare and we never called it “my house” or “my money”

As a taxpayer I want “my money” stopped being given to those pension or baby boomers that whinge about others recieving government welfare.

Jane says:

05:27pm | 11/08/11

Actually many of the looters have been found to be otherwise normal working members of society ... who just couldn’t help themselves.
Just saying…

Daniel Piotrowski says:

08:07am | 11/08/11

Or at least, the have-nots pillaging people who at least well, have stuff they want. A line I should’ve included.

Tom says:

09:32am | 11/08/11

They are not “have nots”, They have mobile phones, food, housing. They are “me wants”

Richard says:

10:23am | 11/08/11

These looter, they truly think that they’re “stealing from the rich”. They think that all business owners are “rich”. I’m going to attribute this attitude to a lack of capitalist education. ‘

Teacher’s are too socialist, so they fail to teach kids about how much hard work and risk it involves to be a business owner. The Education Institution is a Big Statist Bureaucracy, they wouldn’t even know how to teach the virtues of laissez-faire free market capitalism.

I’m Gen Y myself, and I found it so difficult myself to get my head around the prospect that I could open a business to generate money, for years I struggled to grasp how that was possible for me, because I never received any skerrick of education on how to open and run a business, on how to be an entrepreneur, on what being an entrepreneur really involves.

It wasn’t even taught that entrepreneurs and business owners should be respected. That is how wealth is generated, all of society is rich only through the endeavours of entrepreneurs, but the education system turns a completely blind eye to them. Ignores them totally.

Instead of being so focussed on churning out “professionals”, its high time the education system really tackled the task of giving people the tools to start and run their own successful businesses, to be able to earn their own living independently of the State and Big Business plutarchy. This really is the only way to generate greater community integration and social wealth.

Gregg says:

10:38am | 11/08/11

There are vigilante groups already forming, sales of baseball bats up 5000%, shopkeepers guarding already damaged shops and some more nationalistic ” white ” guys looking to give out beatings.

All we need now is for the skinhead and closet natzi platoons to get into full stride and it could become even more violent.
It’s surprising the soccer fights hooligans have taken so long to get going, especially since there’s a question on first round of premier competition being abandoned.
Wonder if Harry will bring the uniform out of the closet!

Mahhrat says:

10:44am | 11/08/11

@Richard, that is a good post, thank you.

Kipling says:

10:57am | 11/08/11

Richard, I daresay teachers, regardless of whether your conservative view of teachers is valid, have not in anyway influenced most of this lot or not.

As to other punchers comments regarding the mob being have nots - well, despite their mobile phones etc, they are still, in effect have nots, although the very apt “me wants” descriptor was not lost on me. In fact, it is an apt description for most of that which we call civilisation today. The means of getting what one wants is all that varies, and then only slightly.

With regard to comments about this being due to the welfare system; payment of money is not of itself welfare; it is throwing money at problems in the abjectly futile hope they will go away. In short, these people are part of a Tran generational attitude of welfare provision being equivalent to the old adage giving a man a fish. Clearly teaching them to fish would have been far more appropriate. What we are seeing today is a slight skewing of the fish adage, that being, if you build a man a fire he is warm overnight, if you set him on fire he is warm for the rest of his life. London is burning brightly…

It is worth noting too that this is not solely an issue of the “socialist” state, if it were the problems would have been solved by one of the many capitalist Governments. Clearly socialism and capitalism are far too closely related to each other.

Dan says:

12:09pm | 11/08/11

Those damn socialists and their public education….trying to ruin the world, one basic need at a time.

Glen says:

01:24pm | 12/08/11

Dan your a typical socialist, always ready to twist the discussion, piss everyone off by trying to steal the moral high-ground but ignoring the real problem.  The welfare state and open immigration that inflated and debased the society esp the lower strata is what went wrong, not education.

KH says:

10:25am | 11/08/11

Yet all politicians (yes - including those on the right) seem fond of offering hand outs to less and less ‘needy’ and deserving people to win votes.  I can imagine being genuinely unemployed and having to decide between heat and food can make you pretty angry when you see 4WD driving big earners in their inner city homes getting welfare - and lets not haggle - all these rebates and perks are welfare, no matter how you try to dress it up.  The rot is much deeper than you think….........

There is a place for welfare - there just shoudln’t be people forced to live on the streets and not be able to eat in a country like ours, and there will always be a percentage of people who are unemployable for various reasons - but welfare should be limited to the truly needy, not the greedy.  The rules need to be stricter - like no unemployment benefits unless you have actually worked at some point - not ‘ive finished school and can’t be bothered getting a job’.  Or the amount of time you can be on unemployment benefits is related to the length of time you have been employed.  No benefits to people whose parents have already been on benefits for years.  Revisiting public housing allocations so that when people get on their feet, they have to move - that kind of unpopular thing…...........I would vote for a party that was prepared to make some hard decisions, even if it means copping a 1 term government to make it happen. 

Just look at what happens when you suggest someone on a $80k plus salary is not needy - watch them all crawl out with their excuses about why they deserve welfare, and how their children will be looking after you in your nursing home, blah blah blah.

Jim says:

03:13pm | 11/08/11

KH - I get sick of people banging on about ‘middle class welfare’ as if it’s a blight on humanity! Yes, Howard introduced things like private health rebates and private school funding.

You need to look outside your little square and see the bigger picture; the public health system as implemented by Hawke/Keating was a fanstastic idea…but look at what it did. Most people who were paying into private health abandoned it in favour of medicare…the public health system was drowning. There was no incentive for people to pay their fair share any more. In comes Howard with his 30% rebate offer to attract people back into private health and ease the pressure on the public system. People still had to pay private health, and they still had to pay a medicare levy; the 30% rebate made it SLIGHTLY more attractive than the extra 1% levy. It was not welfare by any stretch, and if it didn’t happen our health system would have failed years ago. Now, the red-headed dingbat is revoking the rebate and we’ll be back to square one. I’ve done the maths and I’d be better off by at least $1000 a year by ditching MBF and paying the full levy.

Similar story with private schools…thousands of parents choose to spend lots of money to get a better education for their kids, the funding provided by the government help people afford something they normally couldn’t. Strip that funding and our public schools will fall over.

fml says:

10:28am | 11/08/11

Ahh no,

Do a google search, you will see there is many whites too, it is not a race riot, its a class riot, no matter how much you want it to be so.

just look at this link

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/605440-g20-protesters-break-into-rbs-building

Sad Sad Reality says:

12:02pm | 11/08/11

Still shopping around that unrelated article, fml?

Anyone buying it yet?

fml says:

12:23pm | 11/08/11

SSR,

How is it unrelated?

“Protesters breaking into RBS building”. The pictures of white people rioting breaking down your little white picket fence fantasy world which you share with fairies and stories of your mother swapping apple pie recipes?

Sad Sad Reality says:

01:51pm | 11/08/11

So much hatred of the white man, fml.

I knew I could get it out of you if I pushed hard enough.

Roll up, roll up, hypocrite here. Right here folks. Come and see.

Tator says:

06:33pm | 11/08/11

FML,
it is unrelated as it does not refer to the current riots and is only referring to a much smaller riot 2 years ago in totally different circumstances.

nihonin says:

08:23am | 11/08/11

watty, that’s due to the leftards in governments listening to psychologists, when they were spouting such drivel as toddlers are adults and should be treated and such.  Unfortunately brainless dickheads in governments(all governments as as there are leftards on both sides) legislated along the lines of these crap theories and now we finally have a generation of undisciplined maggots who have only ever feared the naughty chair.

fml says:

10:31am | 11/08/11

No thats right watty,

Glaswegians just chased people down the street with cricket bats if they looked english, oh and the glasgow kiss, a sign of affection in scotland, right?

frankr says:

12:06pm | 11/08/11

@ watty,
you know you have won your arguement when “people” like fml start making up stories to put you down

fml says:

12:24pm | 11/08/11

Not putting im down, its just not all cherries and marmalade as watty makes it out to be.

Michael says:

03:20pm | 11/08/11

FML those are generalisations about people from Glasgow, the same kind of generalisations that are made about muslims or christians, can you see that when you make the same kinds of generalisations as intolerant people, you will be mistaken for an intolerant person that uses generalisations to stereotype a place/people etc. ?

This is how racial vilification starts.

fml says:

05:21pm | 11/08/11

You are right michael, i apologise and retract my statement.

graham says:

06:19pm | 12/08/11

@fml. It is actually the ‘Liverpool kiss’ but you probably knew that. It just didn’t fit your rant did it.
And for the experts posting here, fml particularly, don’t you realise that a race issue is also a class issue? Or do you all really think that class and race are separate issues. How difficult is it for anyone to realise that in a predominately white environment, the “other races” are deemed “lower class”. And that in the minds of those who consider, erroneously, that low income/welfare recipients are ‘beneath’ them, that immediately those people become ‘lower class’,
What a wonderful world we live in.

fml says:

10:33am | 11/08/11

i thought it was because the police shot a young man?

Sad Sad Reality says:

11:58am | 11/08/11

The police shot a criminal, fml. I thought that was part of the job description. They guy they shot was a total scumbag. Good riddance.

iansand says:

08:36am | 11/08/11

Pfft - the Royal Family?  Do you mean those German blow ins?  There are people in England who regard the Royal Family as their social inferiors.

Brendan says:

08:55am | 11/08/11

Upper, middle or lower class, I’ve never seen people get truly angry about people richer than them getting even richer, or people poorer than them doing better but staying poor.

What really annoys people is when someone they deem lower equals or worse still passes them.  That’s what people really fear. 

That’s why your toffs hate Ms Middleton, she was below them, and is now above them on their own rules. 

BT says:

09:08am | 11/08/11

The Kate Middleton thing is a myth too. She’s actually distantly related to William on the Spencer line. The royals spun the rags to riches story to make it look like they aren’t all as inbred as they seem, but really nothing has changed. They’re still a closed circle that will NEVER let the outsiders in.

Joseph Logan says:

09:21am | 11/08/11

Utter crap!
How many blacks came with the Norman invasion?

MarkS says:

09:29am | 11/08/11

There is one way to be let in. Be a really good killer. Lots of Napoleons generals become nobles & royals. That is what the ancestors of the pommie upper class were, cold hearted murderers.

Kika says:

10:19am | 11/08/11

Man people know nothing about British history? Just because the royal family are ‘german blow ins’... how long do you want to go back to find a full blood Briton? You’d have to go back to pre Roman times. Pull your head in and read some books and get yourself an education dullards.

iansand says:

11:37am | 11/08/11

Kika - It doesn’t mean that the Royal Family are not regarded as German blow ins by some elements of the English aristocracy.

Escapee says:

11:50am | 11/08/11

Most of the long term poor whites have always been fairly compliant and put up with their lousy lot.  A life that starts in the depressing void of a London Council Estate means the dice is already loaded to beat you down and keep you forever warehoused and stored with the useless.  Many manage to escape to higher classes but they have a magnificent strength of character because they have to peddle harder and faster just to keep up with the privileged who only need to free wheel.  The “estate” criminal culture is a magnet for both black and white because it is the only means to get ‘things’, especially when your address denies you employment.  The clearance given to these estates is such that walking and driving nearby is to be avoided, lest you are sucked into the forever downward spiraling abyss.  The young blacks are behaving badly in the eyes of comfortable society by looting and rioting, but not a being a docile poor like the whites could be the bigger impact.  Will there be an increase in crime numbers? or it it business as usual with technology helping to organise, strategise and focus all the petty crime that would have been happening anyway.  It is a good news story but this will all blow over and return to more distributed petty crime, which always has no interest for politicians or media.  There will be some window dressing reports and submissions for a few youth clubs to be opened (after having closed them down) and UK will carry on with the class system as usual.  No decision maker would ever want to share the loot and spoils the class system gives them.

KH says:

10:07am | 11/08/11

Rubbish.  Its more to do with the damage the ‘empire’ sustained in WW1 and then more catastrophically in WW2.  The cost - both financially and socially - was so great, they had to relinquish what little control they had left of their ‘empire’ - they just didn’t have the resources.

fml says:

10:37am | 11/08/11

What? did the roman empire fall because of socialism, PC and multiculturalism as well? As opposed to to corruption and over expansion?

Unbelievable, the rubbish some people sprout is astounding.

Shane From Melbourne says:

11:51am | 11/08/11

Actually one theory was that the Roman Empire fell due to the introduction of Christianity as the state religion. At the time, Christianity was very socialist…..

Sceptic says:

09:01am | 11/08/11

This is also why it will happen again in the future, because the leftards tell them this is acceptable behaviour and make an excuse for them.

Tom says:

09:07am | 11/08/11

On the welfare % of GDP, I am dismayed but not surprised. Lefties despise the truth. Its that simple.

fml says:

10:43am | 11/08/11

Well no. Its the governments mismanagement that has marginalised more people. The number below the poverty line and seeking access to foodbanks has doubled in the last two years.

Keynesian economics states in times of recession the government needs to spend to kick start the economy again. What do the tory’s do? Cut public service jobs, reduce benefits. What occurs? Increasing unemployment and resentment. Who is all this aimed at? The poor, throw in an increasing fear from the whinging middle class and the introduction of police powers to the point youths cannot walk down the street anymore with out being harassed by the police (including trigger happy special forces, remember menenzes?) and you have many angry disenfranchised people. Kick a dog long enough and they will eventually bite back.

Steve says:

01:06pm | 11/08/11

fml. 13 years of labour have left the UK with basicvally the same level of Government debt as the USA. (approx 100% of GDP) The Uk has also undertaken quantatative easing which is a form of printing money.

They do not have the capacity to repay their debt. Even if they wanted to join the Euro zone they would not qualify for the poor state of debt. The only reason the UK has’ny defaulted on their debt is because they have printed money.

There is no money left to undertake Keynesian spending.

The new Tory Government has only talked about cuts, most of the cuts haven’t taken place yet.

The proposed cuts don’t even return the budget to surplus. All that is proposed is reduced deficits meaning the economy goes down the toilet a bit slower.

Class warfare is a factor. Many more Brits are welded onto labour for no other reason than class. Here in Australia we are able to change Governments more readilly and don’t have to be in economic dire straits to do so. I have always thought that 1 or a max of 2 ALP terms followed by a minimum of 3 coalition terms works very well for us. 13 years of labour has resulted in an economic mess that will take something like a new north sea oil field under the Falklands to even begin to fix.

fml says:

01:32pm | 11/08/11

Thats true steve,

But you have to admit the current Tory government and their tax cuts are predominantly targeting the lower classes. Cutting spending so you can repay debt is a good idea, but what are they spending the surplus on?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/jul/28/boris-johnson-top-rate-tax-cut

Here Boris wants to cut the Tax rate for people earning over 150,000 pounds a year, yet funding to university places is cut, public services is cut and benefits cut, so the people earning over 150,000 can get a tax break? Surely, the majority of londoners shouldnt be punished just because the rich can get a tax break. Its fine with these people yelling from their ivory tower, get a job you scum, while they government favors them.

PTom says:

02:32pm | 11/08/11

Steve

Have a read of this about debt levels.
http://blogs.theaustralian.news.com.au/mumble/index.php/theaustralian/comments/net_debt/

Steve says:

05:09pm | 11/08/11

fml. The top tax rate in the UK is 50%. A longer term policy to cut that rate and provide incentive for people to excell would be a good thing.

I say a longer term policy because after 13 years of labour they can’t afford to implement those cuts in the foreseeable future and unfortunately they have to be left as is despite the disincentive they create.

However fml, Boris is only the mayor of London. I don’t think that tax cuts are a tory policy are they?

So the top earners already have high taxes which only leaves spending cuts to try and help with deficit reductions. There is always wastage in Government programs and all expenditure must be critically assessed including programs for the poor. from memory the only 2 areas that have immunity from cuts are foreign aid and health? Welfare programs are where the biggest waste is so it stands to reason that that is where the biggest ability to cut are.

PTom. Thanks for the interesting graph. It confirms that the debt to GDP ratio gradually increased under Blair/Brown while at the same time was decreasing under Howard/Costello.

Gregg says:

10:48am | 11/08/11

One good Brit summed it up when being interviewed ” feral rats “
There’s still plenty of pillaging going on, despite who is doing it, why and their attitudes.

Mik says:

12:37pm | 11/08/11

R E S P E C T !  May your little shop grow and prosper
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-14482697

Glen says:

11:13am | 11/08/11

I think you mean robbers with hoods.

RyaN says:

03:45pm | 11/08/11

@Glen: Robben Hoods!

Brendan says:

10:50am | 11/08/11

May your method would work, but you can’t close that box once you open it. 

Police kill people, people kill police, police kill more people. The cycle starts but where does it end?

fml says:

11:06am | 11/08/11

Because the british dont believe in the death penalty. Chuck norris isnt the prime minister. Also i think the prime minister understands, that you cant teach thugs not to be thugs, by acting like a thug.

Remember it was the police shooting someone that started this, shooting more people is obviously not the answer.

adam says:

11:40am | 11/08/11

fml,

shoot enough people and it’s the answer. just sayin’ is all

fml says:

12:28pm | 11/08/11

adam,

When has shooting people not resulted in more angry people?

Tubesteak says:

01:05pm | 11/08/11

Brendan
It ends when everyone knows their place and keeps themselves quiet..

fml
The Japanese are a pretty placid bunch these days…....

Brendan says:

02:06pm | 11/08/11

@Tube,

A little provocative, but lets assume your point is right about the Japanese.  Do you unleash an armoured division on Birmingham or Liverpool?  Isn’t that what the Serbs tried in Bonsia?  How would it pan out?
This is really interesting….

Tom says:

02:15pm | 11/08/11

Err, shooting them tends to make them less angry.

fml says:

05:24pm | 11/08/11

Err, Tom their family and friends tend to get rather upset.

Chris L says:

03:21pm | 11/08/11

A quick look at some looter profiles shows that these aren’t the welfare drains you might have assumed they are.

marley says:

12:45pm | 11/08/11

No one is making people dependent on welfare.  People are choosing to be dependent on welfare.  There are educational opportunities and jobs for people who want to pursue them.

Cateray says:

09:55am | 11/08/11

Thanks for that insightful analysis, Adolf.

JOhn the Zombie says:

10:04am | 11/08/11

totally agree. Nothing on the news is mentioned about how they are targeting mosques and temples

Kika says:

10:35am | 11/08/11

I agree. It’s true. But it comes down to the education of the woman. The more educated the female is, the less children she has. When you have girls who have never seen their mothers value education or work and are just at home having more and more children there is less likelihood that she will break the mould and go do something with her life other than being a breeder.

Demoman says:

11:04am | 11/08/11

That is uncle Adolf to you, Cateray.

Kika, partly the issue is that having children is indeed seen as being a “breeder” with the corresponding low social status. Middle class people do not want children because not only are they extremely expensive thus reducing their ability to buy social status items, but also because if you have 3 kids you are looked down on. This is insane.

People complain about eugenic policies that would actually benefit society but have no problem with dysgenic policies such as encouraging the lower class to breed with the baby bonus which negatively affect society. This may be difficult to accept for people on an emotional level.

fml says:

11:13am | 11/08/11

@Cateray +1.

Demoman says:

01:15pm | 11/08/11

Heaven forbid unpopular ideas be discussed rationally rather than the typical emotional outburst.

Bev says:

01:32pm | 11/08/11

@Kika See my earlier post feminism is part of the problem not the solution. Destruction of the family unit is a basic tenent of feminism and they along with the social engineers and other usual suspects have done a good job of it . Destroy or cripple the family unit and you destroy society. In the early days of feminism a few far cited individuals predicted what would happen after three generations of feminist policies.  They were right but were totally ignored and denigrated. Now we have a generation which is largely fit only to be put up against the wall.

Kika says:

03:49pm | 11/08/11

Bev and all - Agreed. Our social fabric has been destroyed and is going through an interesting phase as the children of working mums, single mums and welfare mums grow up and become a sizeable majority.

SpiritWolf84 says:

04:01pm | 11/08/11

@Bev - What does feminism have to do with it? Do you honestly expect us women to pipe down and become slaves? No thanks. I’m a woman who is free to do what she pleases, and believe in real equality (without being a feminazi, I still think some things are better suited to men ie mining, chugging beer) of the sexes - as in a relationship being an equal partnership (which works for me, as things are less stressful), and if a man and I were applying for a job in a male dominated environment, and he got the job due to better credentials, I wouldn’t cry discrimination, it just means he was better suited to the job. I think feminism has absolutely nothing to do with it.

Bev says:

05:13pm | 11/08/11

SpiritWolf84 says:04:01pm | 11/08/11
What does feminism have to do with it?
Please read my much earlier post.
Most agree the welfare system particularly as it applies to single mothers either never married or via easy divorce and the difunctional children this produces is a big part of the problem.  Who do you think has been the driving force behind easy divorce and state support for and encouragement of single mothers? Who do you think has biased the education system to disadvantage boys and favour girls to the point that boys are dropping out of the education system in droves to become unenployable morons? The feminazi are there behind the scenes pulling strings and the agenda has nothing to do with equality (it never was that’s a smoke screen).  They are not the total problem but are a large part of it.

Do you honestly expect us women to pipe down and become slaves?

No but what women have now is not freedom.  From 1945 on women were not slaves you were just told you were. Womans happiness is much less now than it was in 1970 how does feminism account for that?

Cateray says:

06:51pm | 11/08/11

Hey Uncle Adolf, ideas such as “It is time we start realising that there is a correlation between being success (sic) and genetics rather than viewing the source of all social ills as “class struggle” which is how the left tends to view things” aren’t just unpopular. They’re the bedrock on which the Holocaust was built.

Demoman says:

11:23pm | 11/08/11

@Cateray

Eugenics was popular before Hitler, he just depopularised it majorly though many countries continued with mild eugenic policies into the 70s, such as Sweden. Hitler also used toilet paper and built the autobahn so not everything he did was necessarily evil.

A eugenic policy doesn’t need to go down the road of the Holocaust which is what you imply it will. Your emotions regarding the Holocaust are understandable as it was a horrific event, but you can not let that cloud your judgement. The rights of the individual are important, but so are the rights of society. The choices of the individual have strong impacts on society when it must burden the cost of the individuals bad choices. Examples include a prostitute that uses drugs and constantly gets pregnant and has mentally handicapped children. Should society tolerate this ? I believe not.

It would be unreasonable if all healthy people stopped breeding and only people with genetic diseases such as cystic fibrosis had 5 children. Next generation would consist entirely of people with CF. How can society afford this economically? There simply isn’t enough money to go around.

The same applies to people of the low-socio economic strata that tend to have many children whilst the middle class have very few. The result of this is that next generation will consist of dramatically increased numbers of people from this low-socio economic background with the corresponding levels of IQ, motivation and poor environment in which to improve ones self. Perhaps some of these issues can be helped with means that provide social mobility, but most of the time they are unsuccessful. The end result is that in 100 years time there may not be enough successful people to burden the cost of the lower strata. Even Dr Flynn of the IQ Flynn effect has recently pointed out that educated women not having children is going to result in a drop in the average IQ over time.

The logical solution and the emotionally acceptable one do not necessarily overlap unfortunately.

graham says:

12:55pm | 13/08/11

@Mark, Free speech, right to protest, ie, freedom of expression are christian based? I thought you lot complain that a bloke got himself crucified for following those rules.
Isn’t it true that your wierdo belief is that he drummed up a following, spoke out against the government of the day, and got what many are advocating these present day insurgents get.
Religion is at the base of these troubles, and the sooner that is realised the better. As long as established churches continue to manipulate the masses by instilling some belief that one lot are superior to another lot we will have objections. Think about it.

fml says:

10:55am | 11/08/11

Idiotic comment, doesnt add to the debate, doesnt solve anything, just shows your ignorance.

Well done.

Nick42 says:

03:01pm | 11/08/11

Inbred Redneck - see I can play the stupid game as well. How about you actually make an intelligent comment. As several people have given links through out the comments section showing whites and black and everybody inbetween looting it just makes a mockery of your statement. Also all stripes of politicians, both left, right and in the middle have contributed to this situation over the last hundred years try actually studying a bit of history rather than taken your information from opinion writers.
Sure punish the people who have looted as they have now crossed the line but if you cannot understand the reason why this has occurred, bar making idiotic comments, then you will never be able to fix the problem.

RickY says:

03:25pm | 11/08/11

Ha ha Glen, you know you are right when fml starts squealing…..... 

fml says:

10:54am | 11/08/11

Having lived in london also, i totally agree.

Class still exists. The gulf between rich and poor is growing. I started off working 60 hours a week at about 5 pounds an hour.  After tax i only had 250 odd pounds to live, renting a room for 500 a month, which was quite cheap. I had next to nothing left. I eventually got a better job, the thing with london is, if you have a decent job, the world is your oyster, poor and you are only someone elses toilet cleaner.

fml says:

11:38am | 11/08/11

I agree Kika,

People see what they want to see to reinforce their prejudices.
They just want lay blame about why things are they way they are instead of tackling the real issues.

Its easier to say “Its the immigrants fault” than it is to ask “Why are you angry”

hot tub political machine says:

12:53pm | 11/08/11

Ever see that humerous world map? Instead of nations names on the Map it gives you a stereotyped little description of that country. E.g. America is labelled “Guns” Mexico is labelled “Drugs”. Australia is labelled “racists”.

Its just bluntly true as anyone who has spent time among angry Aussies on the piss or seen what happens to an Asian kid with a laptop walking home alone knows.

This is Australia - its not perfect - and there is zero leadership trying to address it (Aussies have glass jaws and hate being criticised by their leaders - I should know I am one).

Don’t make your peace with it, keep challenging the racist to back up their views with facts (when they refuse to and go all red-faced its always a massive discredit to their views) but don’t be surprised when you encouter it. This is the insecure Island we live on after all.

hot tub political machine says:

12:53pm | 11/08/11

Ever see that humerous world map? Instead of nations names on the Map it gives you a stereotyped little description of that country. E.g. America is labelled “Guns” Mexico is labelled “Drugs”. Australia is labelled “racists”.

Its just bluntly true as anyone who has spent time among angry Aussies on the piss or seen what happens to an Asian kid with a laptop walking home alone knows.

This is Australia - its not perfect - and there is zero leadership trying to address it (Aussies have glass jaws and hate being criticised by their leaders - I should know I am one).

Don’t make your peace with it, keep challenging the racist to back up their views with facts (when they refuse to and go all red-faced its always a massive discredit to their views) but don’t be surprised when you encouter it. This is the insecure Island we live on after all.

Michael says:

01:13pm | 11/08/11

HTPM do you have that culture shame thing?

The trouble with saying Australia is a racist country is that Australia is full of people from so many races, which ones are the racist ones and who are they being racist towards? or are we all racist to everyone?

Australia, is a nation not a race of people, it would be better if you used the words that say what you mean instead of words that don’t mean what you are trying to say.

Adam Diver says:

01:24pm | 11/08/11

@ fml, your message gets diluted when you comment on every single thread. I can’t understand what your motivation would be, but we get it, you don’t believe its anything to do with race, and the police sparked the incident.

Let it go, you will feel better and so will everyone else.

Craig says:

01:37pm | 11/08/11

Bullshit!, you see the world through rose coloured glasses. Just ask the police in London, LA, New York or Sydney which ethnic groups are over-represented in crime statistics.

Anna C says:

02:10pm | 11/08/11

Hot tub political machine, if we are such a racist country then why isn’t ethnic cleansing our national sport? If you think we are so racist then what do you consider places like the former Yugoslavia and Rawanda to be? When in recent history have we committed acts of genocide against one another?

It irritates me when people talk about how racist we are as a country. We allow unrestricted immigration and are one of the most multicultural nations on earth. I don’t see people accusing countries like Japan with racism even though they allow virtually no immigration and refuse to recognise Koreans who have been living and working in their country since before the second world war. If we are racist then what are they?

Come on people a little perspective would be nice.

fml says:

02:14pm | 11/08/11

Adam,

Not till my keyboard breaks or my fingers drop off.

Kika says:

04:01pm | 11/08/11

Anna C - I agree. We are not the only racist country. Singapore for example is really racist.. but they hold their racist card and don’t show it for everybody to see like we do.

Why anyone can contribute this as a race war beats me. Unless they are colour blind…

John the Zombie says:

10:02pm | 11/08/11

fml can I point something out to you that even muslim, sikhs and hindus have pointed out that it is the black carrabians who are casuing all the problems. I have been talking to few friends in the UK and they have also pointed out thje tensions that exsisted before these riots with the asian and the carribean black community. I ask you why have they not released the picture of the man who ran the three muslim youths over.

Also I have also found out that this theivery is not just a recent thing but have been occuring for weeks. Sikh temples and mosques have been targeted and robbed over the last three weeks before these riots. This has lead to members of the temples and mosque now having to have ppl placed at the places of worship to protect them from these scum.

I would also point out that about 2 yrs ago a sikh temple was set on fire. In this case women were holding prayers and were in the kitchen cooking. They smelt smoke coming from the prayers room as they went to investigate they were knocked over by a black youth running out of the temple. The youth had set fire to the prayer room and run off,

Have a read fml

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?153578-London-Sikh-temple-Gutted-suspected-Racist-Attack

Shama says:

11:52am | 11/08/11

MLK, I think the general consensus is that a riot is a result of some kind of a political programme on the part of the rioters. Completely absent here. Its just hooliganism.

Mik says:

12:22pm | 11/08/11

Yep!  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14458424

but also these http://colorlines.com/archives/2011/08/68-year-old_west_indian_man_calls_bbc_anchor_an_idiot_when_asked_if_he_condones_riot.html

What started out as a cause became an excuse which then just became an orgy of destruction and self gratification.

Sad Sad Reality says:

12:33pm | 11/08/11

“A riot is the wailing of social parasites.”

SSR

Sam Chowder says:

12:40pm | 11/08/11

“A riot is an opportunity to make the TV news and finish the Christmas shopping earlier than usual”

Cuppa says:

03:36pm | 11/08/11

SSR & Sam Chowder, Ha ha! Gold! & 100% true.

Richard says:

01:56pm | 11/08/11

I agree. This concept that its possible to have a “Social Democracy” is a misnomer. You cannot mix Socialism with Democracy and expect to have a workable system.

Democracy requires freedom. Freedom can only exist under pure undiluted laissez-faire free market capitalism. Any socialist intervention in the economy and society breeds the sort of entitlement mentality that finds its ultimate expression in these riots and lootings.

Time to admit that we’ve been sheeple, that we’ve been stupidly chasing the impossible dream of “Social Democracy”. Lets just get on with it and demand that the scope and size of government be limited to:

1) National Defence and Border Security
2) Maintaining the Rule of Law
3) Protecting Private Property rights
4) Providing for Enforceable Contracts

The only other legitimate use of Public Tax payer money we must agree should be for local issues only, such as roads, libraries, pools etc. where we can see the value for our money that we’re getting.

All big Institutions of the Welfare State must be dismantled. This is the only way to restore harmony and cohesiveness to our communities.

Steve says:

02:19pm | 11/08/11

Nossy - I think they should send in the English cricket team. It is multicultural and nobody can hit their bowlers!

Adam Diver says:

02:01pm | 11/08/11

When you always try to put forth a central argument or take a central position on issues, you immediately dismiss other arguments. Who is to say that the left or the right is not completely correct in thier assessments of this situation.

Kika says:

04:05pm | 11/08/11

Unlikely. I guess the only solution is to start shipping them out to Australia, right?

Rick says:

04:37pm | 11/08/11

What total crap! I suppose it’s Julia’s fault liberal loser.

Johnny atheos says:

08:58pm | 11/08/11

Rick, I don’t mind Julia, but she’s not the party only the PM. The Labor party has made mess of itself and the country when bought into Postmodernism crap . However I have no faith in the others either.

Shama says:

01:14pm | 11/08/11

Best comment of the day!

Likes Joining Dots says:

06:50pm | 11/08/11

@Shane from Melbourne, thanks for the link to what appears an interesting article - I’ll have to give it the time it deserves on the weekend.

Currently looking forward to The Next 100 Years arriving in the mail any day now.

Biggles says:

02:39pm | 11/08/11

That is what these kids are taught by lazy waster parents in defense of their sloth.  Sex is a right but breeding should be a privilege.  This era must be the peak of human evolution as we allow the useless to procreate in such large numbers,  we can only go backwards from here.

fml says:

02:55pm | 11/08/11

Maybe thats because they are children?

Let them grow up a little and experience life before you condemn them to be petty thugs. Kids act up infront of other kids, were doing this for as long as i remember, definitely not restricted to todays youth.

marley says:

03:13pm | 11/08/11

@fml - I concede that the 11 year old busted for stealing is a child, but that definition hardly applies to the 31-year old primary school worker or the 24 year old scaffolder.  And how about the 18 year old who was due to start an apprenticeship next week? How does he, or any of these, fit in with your theories that the cause of the riots is inability to get an education or a job?

The Enforcer says:

05:18pm | 11/08/11

These kids irrespective of age need a good public caning.
and maybe their parents need to spend a few days in the stocks so we can throw rotten veg at them.

fml says:

05:29pm | 11/08/11

There are obviously opportunistic looters, i have been commenting on the initial cause and root of unrest.

I was referring to Jade in the context of how she can see contempt in the children she teaches.

Also, Marley, Why are we only talking about individuals, why couldnt the 11 year old you mention be part of a family who is struggling to survive, i would suggest a high majority of them would have parents, and if anyone of them lost their job, or is finding it difficult to find work, i would think it would affect the children too.

marley says:

07:28pm | 11/08/11

@fml - well, first, in the UK, families don’t have to “struggle to survive.”  Welfare benefits are reasonably generous.  Certainly, you neither starve nor freeze on them.  We’re talking 2010, not the workhouse of 1848.  So, no, I’m not about to buy an argument about stressed-out pre-teens stealing shoes because dad got laid off.

And my point was, there seem to have been a lot of mature adults involved, people with jobs and prospects, ripping up their own neighbourhoods, destroying whatever they could get their hands on. 

Blaming all of this on cuts in civil service positions and raising university fees is, to my mind, utterly simplistic.  Britain has a class divide - always has had - and it isn’t going to change anytime soon.  But, that being said, it also has a good education system and a very generous social welfare net - people from Haringay might not aspire to own a castle, but they can aspire to education, training and employment.

Jade (the other one) says:

03:42pm | 12/08/11

@fml - I think it is telling that as someone from a background where both parents worked, I never questioned that it was an appropriate thing to work, and held those who did not work in the highest contempt as a child. Similarly, many of my students from backgrounds where one or both parents worked shared similar views.

I highlighted the example to demonstrate the mentality of children from backgrounds where parents live on benefits. When I refer to children, I am referring to high-school aged students. I believe very strongly that this mentality is one that is partially developed by a lack of role-models in the home or community that work, and the contempt shown by the few role models they have for those who do work.

Rick says:

04:30pm | 11/08/11

Did I hear some where the Police were on a go slow due to a undermanning issue? Would it have happened if the bloke was white? No white’s don’t back each other up.Not allowed to carry guns? How did they get those bullets in that guy?Sling shot?

RyaN says:

03:48pm | 11/08/11

They’d stop super fast then, no doubt!

marley says:

04:46pm | 11/08/11

I remember him - and I remember riots in LA, where King was assaulted.  What I don’t remember is riots breaking out in Detroit and New York and Seattle.  This is pretty obviously a different thing.

Rick says:

05:07pm | 11/08/11

Justified No But when a few bankers can destroy the world economy by giving out too many bad loans they get away with it. Justice?Email sent to me last week ; a banker in the US involved in a 3 billion dollar fraud gets 3 years. A black guy robs a bank of $100 get 15 years. Justice?

John says:

07:45pm | 11/08/11

Red Socialist interpenetration, the evil capitalists, the oppressive racists whites, the constant police discrimination. I mean really, it’s not like the wealth cheques of these rioters got canceled before the riots. These people just wanted more, more and more. There is no honor in lotting, these people have no honor for the country. This is why socialist red anarchists, criminals and thirds worlders took part in the destructive lottersfest, no honor for the nation of brittan.

TheRaptured says:

07:48pm | 11/08/11

Well said by a socialist slave in good accordance with the globalist parasites doctrine hate capitalism, because they have used it to bring in a New World Order. Just keep drinking your flouridated water. You wait for this global communism that is coming that is progressing substantially socialism then don’t complain. Keep ranting the globalist love what you comment on about your dislike for capitalism, even though they hate you.

TheRaptured says:

07:50pm | 11/08/11

You are just a symptom of the rot we are seeing across the globe.

marley says:

08:31pm | 11/08/11

@the Raptured - could you give me directions to your dealer?  Whatever he’s selling you seems to be taking you into another dimension entirely.

red r says:

09:57pm | 11/08/11

Libby, the issue is NOT capitalism - It is ‘CORPORATISM’.
The free market works.
Understand the difference and you will immediately identify where things are going wrong. Corporatism is a form of fascism.

Capitalists believe in choice, free markets and competition. Corporatists believe in the opposite. They don’t want any competition at all. They want to eliminate the competition using their power, their entrenched position and usually the politicians they’ve purchased. They want to capture the system and use it only for their benefit.

‘We the people” have incrementally lost our freedoms and our governments have become too big, too intrusive and too money dependant. Their role is not to create welfare communities or run our lives from cradle to grave. The govt should be very limited - but instead it has destroyed true capitalism and true democracy.

example:
Governments bail out huge banks with trillion dollar profits and transfer their debt to the taxpayer. Transfer private debt to public debt. The government is now just a buffer between huge corporations and the taxpayer. That is NOT what governments role is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwwXgPiySto

google : corporatism vs capitalism

Knemon says:

10:18pm | 11/08/11

Gutsy comment Libby…with the expected return vitriol.

“A society based on greed can hardly be called a society at all when it’s all about the individual and not one bit about the common good”- Good point, especially in a greedy society like Australia that calls itself a common-wealth nation.

@ John - Anarchists are not Socialists.

Libby says:

11:33pm | 11/08/11

Nice way for none of you to actually discount my point!  Rant and rave as much as you like about socialism and it’s alleged historical failures - but nobody has actually disputed my point abotu the failures of capitalism.

Most of you are just scared of the alternative because the have might actually have to face up to the fact they put their money on the wrong horse! 

Majority rules baby - and the majority are those whose cant and will never be able to afford to buy into your capitalist elite! Bring on the revolution!

Craig says:

06:35am | 12/08/11

Well Libby, the world ain’t perfect but as Winston Churchill once said “Democracy is the worst form of government except for all those others that have been tried.”

red r says:

01:03pm | 12/08/11

Yo Libby,

Too lazy to understand the differences between capitalism and corporatism? Hardly surprising.

You need to understand what capitalism is before you slam it.
It can’t be the root of all the worlds problems if it isn’t even functioning in it’s true form.

marley says:

08:51am | 12/08/11

I call it rioting. I haven’t seen a placard or a statement of protest, just a bunch of people with stolen bottles, shoes and whatever.  And I haven’t seen the cops shooting into the mobs, either.

John says:

02:57pm | 12/08/11

The difference i think is that the London riots are not a CIA, MI5 funded. London riots are natural event, not an engineered orchestrated event for political gain. You can clearly see the socialist controlled western media in heavy cover up of the events. The Nationalist Sentiment is growing in Europe, Socialist agents such Sarkozy,  Merkel, Obama, Bush and Cameron were already pandering Nationalist lines with ” Multicultural has failed” They know the tide of European political though is changing. The London riots have fueled this though by 10 times now! The cover up is now on over drive. The socialist triangle of power in Europe, socialist bankers, socialist media and socialist politicians might loss their power in 2012. This will mark the end of 100 years of socialist occupation and bring back the old constitutive christian nationalist bankers, media and politicians. Which will usher a healthy financial system, healthy society and healthy nations. No more wars in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya, no more immorality on the part of Europe as they embrace christian moralistic values once more, instead of socialist satanic values that have caused death, destruction, theft and lies.

marley says:

04:55pm | 12/08/11

John - take a look at who is rioting, and for what.  If you seriously believe that a bunch of undereducated kids reliant on welfare and stealing trainers are marching at the forefront of an anti-socialist, Christian revolution, well, you need help.  Big time.