In trying to identify the causes of the London riots, we could start by reflecting on the comments from former Greater London Council police advisor Lee Jasper in analysing the mindset of the youths on the streets.

Victims all. Photo: AP

In a finger-pointing monologue on The 7.30 Report on Tuesday, Mr Jasper argued that the one group of people who should definitely not be blamed for the riots were the rioters themselves.

“We’ve seen huge levels of austerity cuts in many inner city areas that are leading to a great deal of anxiety and concern,” stated the one-time advisor to former London Mayor “Red” Ken Livingstone. “Unemployment continues to rise and there is a sense of anxiety but also a sense of moral crisis in the country. I think because of the MPs scandal, the corporate tax dodging issue of huge multinational companies, the News International corruption cases with the metropolitan police and phone hacking, there is a kind of failure really of people in power to uphold the kind of moral standards that we all aspire to. And as such, this has had an effect around the country.”

The first notable feature of Mr Jasper’s comments is that they afford a remarkably high level of current affairs knowledge to some of the dumbest and most disengaged people on the face of the earth. In the interviews this week none of the hooded hooligans were telling reporters that they had taken to the streets after reading the Telegraph’s expose of the House of Lords perks scandal – which happened four years ago anyway – or that they picked up a brick in frustration after watching James Murdoch’s evidence to the House of Commons inquiry on the BBC.

Second, Jasper’s comments sought to lend an activist quality to a civil disturbance which is campaigning for absolutely nothing, other than a free television and a shiny pair of sneakers.

This wasn’t a poll tax protest, it wasn’t a show of solidarity with the coal miners or the sacked printers, it wasn’t a G20 riot. At least burning down McDonalds outside a conference promoting free trade makes a crude kind of point.

This was simply an act of mass theft, violence and vandalism by people who, almost to a man, said that they were doing it for fun. It was the first bludger uprising the world has ever seen.

Thirdly, Jasper’s comments have at their centre a belief that, in this case, we are looking at a failure of government to do more. In reality these riots represent a failure of government to do less.

While there is enough material from the four days of rioting to sustain years of sociologists’ conferences, the key issue seems incredibly simple. If you tell several million people that they are under no obligation to work, to learn, to become socialised, and if your laws and your frazzled police and your packed courts don’t treat low-level crimes as crimes at all, you run a pretty obvious risk of ending up with the scenes that we saw this week. If you tell people that life is all take and no give then some of them will end up literally taking things off shop shelves.

One of the first priorities of David Cameron’s relatively new Tory Government has been to rein in the explosion in the British welfare system. Remarkably, one of the central proposals is to stop households receiving unemployment benefits which exceed the average weekly household wage. Remarkable in that things were ever allowed to get that out of hand, with such an enshrined disincentive towards work.

Cameron is a moderate conservative and his welfare overhaul is not extreme. One of his many fair-minded measures is that if you are able-bodied and offered a job but turn it down for no reason, you will be kicked off the dole for three months. This has been denounced as an act of brutality by the welfare lobby, in a country where the number of Britons in employment has fallen by 550,000 since 2004. 

In a report on the reforms in The Daily Mail, the newspaper profiled a family in Anglesea, North Wales, Peter and Claire Davey, who have seven children aged two to 12 and receive £815 (AU$1288) a week in benefits. Mr Davey quit his job as an administrator after realising he and his family would be better off living on handouts. On the numbers it makes a sad kind of sense.

Within the welfare sector there is an unusual metric which holds that increases in government outlays on the dole and the pension are the best indicator of success in the portfolio. You see it here in Australia every year – if state or federal governments cut welfare spending in their budgets, even with the corresponding introduction of schemes to get people into work, groups such as ACOSS fire off accusations of heartlessness. These same groups have a broadly left-wing social agenda yet seem completely indifferent to the concept of the dignity of work, which was actually what Karl Marx spent his entire intellectual life working to achieve.

And then there are the likes of Lee Jasper playing the role of random excuse generator, handing out absurd alibis to those too dim to devise one for themselves. The perpetrators are the victims and government should have done more, when the mayhem created by these welfare-funded ratbags shows government has done far too much already.

325 comments

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    • Gary Cox says:

      06:18am | 12/08/11

      So typical of the ABC and other left wing media to promote a it’s everyone else’s fault except the actual rioters theory. Yes these people may have issues with their place in society but they should still know the difference between right and wrong, and everyone should know the meaning of the word respect.

      The ABC is becoming less relevant with their blatant bias. Q&A is the worst.

    • acotrel says:

      07:37am | 12/08/11

      Hit ‘em hard, I say!  They’re all criminals!  It couldn’t have anything to do with the way our lives have been stuffed up by neoliberalism!

    • ZSRenn says:

      07:48am | 12/08/11

      @ Gary and the rest of the Punchers

      As many may know from my comments in other posts I am know bleeding heart lefty, But I do ask you Erick and the other Punchers to take a walk in the other man shoes for a moment. I am not having a whine as those things that don’t kill us make us stronger. I just want people to think. I also do not condone the looting and rioting.

      It is probably easier for me, to walk in these shoes, as at the height of my Family Law Court / Child Support journey I feel I was very close to the poverty that many of these rioters face. In my case however I was working 60 hours a week to be poor.

      I would come home from work each day, change out of my clothes which I had bought from St Vincent de Paul’s and cook myself my dinner, which most nights consisted of sweet corn over a delicious bed of pasta. Once a week I could afford the luxury of meat usually in the form minced beef, which I cooked and ate, over a delicious bowl of pasta. On the odd occasion, I would find myself at the soup kitchen or at The Salvation Army looking for food vouchers. I sold all of my assets including a $15000 guitar for $100 to the op shop so I could eat.

      On more than 5 occasions I would come home and find my electricity disconnected, because I had not put aside enough in time, to meet the bill and once had to survive like this for 2 weeks, until I was able to pay it. I caught the bus!

      In the good times I would relax and enjoy my one vice in life a little TV. Whilst watching the TV in my 1 room bedsit I would be bombarded with pictures of people younger, but not better looking, sitting in front of their 200cm plasma TV’s whilst wearing the latest fashions from Milan, I would see people talking about how they were putting their savings into such and such a bank. Buy this apartment, get this home loan, shop here, shop there, travel to Europe, travel to the US, buy this car, invest in that port folio, Kochie telling me every morning what a great place Australia is, drink this beer, send your kids to this school.

      It was probably the most heartbreaking thing 2nd only to not seeing my daughter. I would turn it off mid game with the score at 16 all as I could not take it any more. It made me feel less than human. I was watching how well of the rest of Australia was doing constantly whilst I lived in abject poverty.This is how these young people must also feel.

      Penbo you talk about the Guy who went on welfare with 7 kids because he was better off than when he was working. That is not the availability of welfares fault that is the fault of the low wages and over taxation he was receiving for his efforts.

      Please Punch stop pointing the finger at the poor and at race and start looking at the real problems western society faces at the moment we have nearly 10% of Australians living under the poverty line while being told everyday how great life is for the rest of us. It is a mind numbing experience and if a catalyst causes them to go ape shit it is no surprise.

    • Joseph Logan says:

      07:54am | 12/08/11

      Gary Cox, you stole my thunder, completely.
      Can I add my blood started to boil when BBC News Reports referred to these violent,thuggish thieves as “protesters”.
      A great expose of this scandalous behaviour of “our ABC”, in focussing on the absurd comments by Lee Jasper.
      Well done, Penbo.

    • KH says:

      08:55am | 12/08/11

      Funny - several of the people facing court this week were employed.  Or students who are technially ‘unemployed’ but are engaged in study.  One of them lives in a fancy house with rich parents and went to an exclusive girls school.  Another was 11 years old.  They came from all races.

      Sure, Im guessing a lot of welfare bludgers were involved, but how do you explain the employed, tertiary students and children who aren’t old enough to get welfare?  Yet another simplistic response to what is obviously much more complex. 

      So the list now is - not “racial’ specifically, not ‘welfare’ specifically, and not ‘class’ specifically.  What is it, specifically?  Can anyone really answer this question?  This country has its fair share of welfare cheats and bludgers, but I don’t see Sydney burning.

    • AdamC says:

      09:23am | 12/08/11

      KH, I think everybody (left and right) made that assumption. And, by and large, it seems that most -obviously not all - rioters were what one could characterise as disadvantaged. (Or students, who seem to always think they are disadvantaged.) They have also, so far, apparently been majority white.

      To me, the ambiguities about the motives and backgrounds of the rioters shows that the only response that makes sense is an enforcement response. That seems far better than hand-wringing, social meta-narratice responses that can be constantly contested and, in any event, won’t do anything to stop the violence.

    • John A Neve says:

      09:58am | 12/08/11

      KH,
      As I said yesterday, the real root cause of this trouble is population.
      Add to this a feeling of being disenfranchised by government and you have trouble on your hands.
      This is not a British issue, it’s a world issue, just look at the countries where there is unrest in the population. Too many people and not enough work, the rich growing richer and the rest getting poorer.

    • Dan says:

      10:00am | 12/08/11

      How the hell is the ABC to blame for the comments of someone else?

      The man’s opinion is obviously relevant - he’s a former London police chief, discussing the largest riots London’s seen in decades.

      I personally don’t agree with his opinions, but they’re certainly interesting and very newsworthy.

      Just because a news network canvasses opinions you might not agree with, doesn’t mean they’re suffering “blatant bias”.

    • Barry says:

      10:13am | 12/08/11

      If you are poor in the Western world, it’s probably your own fault.

    • Anubis says:

      10:39am | 12/08/11

      @ KH - I quite liked Penbo’s description of it as the first “Bludger’s Uprising”. Nicely covers the participants - students, kids still living at home with rich parents, welfare bludgers

    • fml says:

      10:39am | 12/08/11

      ZSRenn,

      Great advice, chin up i hope you get to see your daughter soon.

    • John A Neve says:

      10:56am | 12/08/11

      Barry,

      Please explain your comment?
      Firstly, poor is surely relative, as to “fault”, the same could surely be said of every where with a mind set such as your’s.

    • tony says:

      10:56am | 12/08/11

      Half if not all of these morons wouldn’t know about multi national tax dodges and investigations into corporate corruption…the other half probably can’t read. As a visitor to London in the 80’s where I lived for two years I was taken aback by the sight of 6 and 7 yr olds smoking and swearing like troopers. I thought “MY GOD ,THESE KIDS ARE GOING TO HAVE KIDS ONE DAY !” And here they are. By the way they were white. Have a look at the street cred advertising ..it almost encourages this behavior . good luck London..you are going to need it. The genies out of the bottle and someone’s misplaced the cork !

    • Wayne Kerr says:

      11:28am | 12/08/11

      ZSRenn,

      I can see you have in fact walked a mile in poor shoes.  However I note that you don’t go randomly mugging a guy walking by in a suit because you think it’s your right to steal from him just because you’re poor and you really want that you beaut smart phone that you can’t afford.

      Circumstances suck for you at this point in time but it seems you have a job and work hard for the money you have. It’s not the Government’s fault nor is it the average puncher’s fault that your ex apperently is trying to screw you royally.

      As others have said; jealousy of what others have is no excuse to go on a violent rampage.

    • Barry says:

      11:38am | 12/08/11

      @John A Neve
      Poor in the sense I can’t afford a plasma, have to eat shitty canned food and can’t pay for electricity.  If you are poor in Africa, it’s most likely due to the fact you are born into no infrastructure, no chance of an education, and no opportunities to pull yourself out of that state.  Similar things exist in Aboriginal communities.  In the Western world, there is ample opportunity in most cases for an education, and to pull yourselves out of those situations.  Job Seekers, and such programs provide ample opportunity.  For the most part, if you stay in school and don’t bludge, get a reasonable score in year 12, then you will not have a problem.  If all else fails, join the army.  Of course, the GFC has effects, and other such things which are out of our control.  In the case of ZSRenn, I don’t want to presume too many things about a situation I don’t really know about, but the fact that he possessed a 15,000 dollar guitar leads me to think he may possibly have ended up in the position partly of his own failings.

      Professor Tony Vinson told a Poverty Week Forum at the University of Sydney in 2004 that:
      Few things are as strongly connected with social disadvantage and poverty as limited or deficient schooling. So much so that it matters little how you retrace the lives of the poor- individually, or in terms of neighbourhoods of concentrated poverty, or the institutions
      in which we lock people up - the path almost invariably leads to an earlier unsuccessful passage through schooling.36

      Stay in school, don’t be lazy, and you’ll live comfortably.  I am over simplifying this, but for a large number of people, it is this simple.

    • Bev says:

      11:39am | 12/08/11

      Wayne Kerr says:11:28am | 12/08/11

      “It’s not the Government’s fault”

      Not directly but they have enthusiastically embraced large parts of feminist policy which is a large part of the problems faced by countless men like ZSRenn and is a big contributing factor to what we see in Britian.

    • Nick says:

      12:05pm | 12/08/11

      @ZSRenn

      here we go, another blatant plea to emotion. “OH god have pity on me i felt so badly baww”

      Pleas to emotion are the only political argument the leftists have. that’s because everything they believe is founded in flawed idealism and not in reality

    • ZSRenn says:

      12:52pm | 12/08/11

      @ fml and Bev: Cheers!

      @ WayneKerr and Nick: Life is a funny thing and sometimes it can come back through Kama and bite you on the ass. I hope this never happens to you.

      My troubles are now 8 years over, and I am on my way (just) to recovery. I was lucky, I was born into a good family who gave me a good education to University level and I had the strength to dig myself out of the hole.

      Many of these people who were rioting probably have less chance of this, and are not just poor individuals, but suburbs of poor, larger than most Australian Cities and they live with it everyday, They can see no light at the end of the tunnel, they do not have the job prospects, they talk about the problems everyday and their only escape is usually alcohol and drugs.

      With all of this they are fully aware that nobody is listening, which you two especially, and other Punchers make crystal clear.

      I mean how much can a ‘Koala Bear’ and as the worlds population continues to grow, these problems are just going to get worse. If nothing is done soon, to alleviate the glowing disparity of wealth around the world, it won’t be just groups who are rioting but entire cities.

      Some may say that it already has, if you look the unrest, in the Middle East due to this same disparity of wealth.

    • ZSRenn says:

      01:15pm | 12/08/11

      @ Barry: Typical If a marriage goes wrong it’s because of the failings of the male.

      I assure you Sir that the circumstances surrounding my financial demise had nothing to do with anything I did or said, except of course for “I do.”  I cannot go into the circumstances, as that is my ex wife’s personal nightmare, and it would be ungentlemanly of me to do so on line.

      The twinge of anger, I felt at your comment has subsided now but when you have suburbs of people being blamed for their own problems, without being fully heard, I once again feel the pain they must be going through.

      This is only going to get worse and ignorant attitudes, such as yours, do not help the situation.

    • Rubens camejo says:

      02:15pm | 12/08/11

      Why, if the ABC shows that report it automatically becomes a left wing media issue.
      I heard in another report, this time on News 24 a woman being interviewed. She was black and said something to the effect that the rioters felt justified in carrying out their actions, something she seemed to partly agree with.

      The point is this;

      Why is it that “left wing” media accusers only want to see one side of the coin?

      Any decent media organisation would show both sides of any story, especially one as complex as this one. This is a multifaceted story and the motivation was not the same for every one of those rioters.

      Some, yes, were simply thugs and opportunistic thieves. Others were motivated by the treatment that the police subjects then to simply because they are black, (the stop and search laws). Others might have. Others might have had acted as a result of having lived their lives in a city where the very wealthy and famous are paraded in front of them every day whilst they feel. Rightly or wrongly, that their lives amounts to zero by comparison.

      Going back to the lady in question; it was pointed out that she appeared to be condoning the rioters. She said words to the effect of yes, I do. “That’s a controversial thing to say”, the reported pointed out. “Not where I come from”, the lady replied. Then she added something very interesting; “all you’ve heard from are people that are NOT from where I come from; why don’t you go and speak to them?”

      She was right of course, no one has, that I am aware of, spoken in depth with the other side of this story, the rioters themselves or those close to them.

      I don’t condone any of what went on, and I certainly find it hard to believe that anyone could justify behaving in such ways but Blind Freddy can see there is a problem if not several social problems in the UK.

      It is the job of the media to investigate those and report on those. In this country there is too much of this left and right BS. Some would have the media just criticise and berate those out of line with their thinking and anyone who doesn’t berate and condemn there for MUST be left wing.

      Woe betides anyone trying to do a comprehensive job of reporting a story’s many sides.

      I think the “right wing” chip on the shoulder really, doesn’t become what used to be the easy going nature of Australians. Some are behaving like radical extremists, something they themselves criticise in others.
      When you insult and demonise those that disagree with you, you are behaving like some people in the early part of last century

    • Chardonnay Socialist says:

      03:16pm | 12/08/11

      ABC reported a range of views. Are they right wing when they allow Abbott or his acolytes to speak, centrist when they let Gillard have a go, and left when they interview a sociologist? No. And the article is wrong: at least one rioter interviewed by the BBC said he & others were expressing their anger at politicians who were rorting the system to clean their moats, pay for their chateaux, etc. Even though the Telegraph is not Murdoch-controlled, the stories about politician rorts were deliberate distortion, so perhaps the article is correct in suggesting the rioters did not have a sophisticated understanding of the story, but it is wrong to suggest they all were unaware of it. Not that I suggest anger, feigned or real, about politicians is a excuse or an adequate explanation at what happened. I suggest greed, exacerbated by the cheapening commercial culture of the mass media, trashy popular culture, and the failure of what the 2nd Frankfurt School called legitimation, are major parts of the mix.

    • ed hurley says:

      04:31pm | 12/08/11

      The yobs are running aroung wearing chinese sneakers, clothing from india or pakistan, holding their japanese/chinese boomboxes to their ears. They do nothing to encourage british firms to stay in britain and provide the jobs they so sorely need. So who’s fault is it that they have nothing. It’s theirs and their parents for not supporting home based industries.

    • John Galt says:

      05:11pm | 12/08/11

      @ZSRenn is correct.  Before you accuse the other man of something, you should first walk a mile in his shoes.  Then you’ll be a mile away and you’ll have his shoes so he can’t chase you.

    • Toady says:

      06:13pm | 12/08/11

      ZSRen, you clearly are a fool.  Selling a $15000 guitar for $100 is stupid.  You could have made more money selling it on EBay, or even sticking a sign up at the supermarket.  You do not say why your relationship failed, and why you ended up in the Family Law Court.  I’m sorry to hear your tale of woe, but perhaps a lot of it is down to you.  Only you would know.  And if that is down to you, it makes you very similar to those rioting idiots over in the UK.  The fact is that for most people in the Western world, poverty is a choice or a result of bad decision making.

    • OchreBunyip says:

      07:01pm | 12/08/11

      @ZSRenn, experiences such as yours are why I will not marry. I refuse to become the ATM for a woman. I hope your rise from your circumstances continues and all the best.

    • Chris L says:

      08:17pm | 12/08/11

      @Rubens camejo - words of wisdom, from my point of view. Blame is insignificant next to reason.

    • Greg says:

      12:28am | 13/08/11

      @ZSRenn, as a left winger, you have nobody to blame but yourself for the misandrist family court system.

      I am glad that one of the people responsible is suffering the consequences for once.

      Suffer in your jocks!

      But even after experiencing being sucked dry by a parasite yourself, you still want to do the same to others. That’s why you deserve no sympathy.

    • Robert Smissen of country SA says:

      12:58am | 13/08/11

      Millionaire daughter was the getaway driver for looters, her parents did the right thing & dobbed her in.

      ZSRenn. BULLSHIT! ! ! Sounds like you think your life is in the toilet & it’s not your fault. Mate I’m on a pension, have a mortgage, a diabled son, drive a 6yo car (paid for) we eat well, oh & Ihave money in the bank. Toughen up princess & grow a pair

    • Lisa H. says:

      02:12pm | 13/08/11

      ZSRenn thank you for your comments, all the best to you, go well.
      Others who feel the need to offer hurtful and superficial ‘constructive criticism’ are misguided, your dignified response is rather inspirational.
      I suspect you are not the type to mug and burn, also.
      Poverty is not the reason why people become criminals… there are other factors at play…idleness?

    • Dan says:

      04:31pm | 13/08/11

      ZSRenn
      “I sold all of my assets including a $15000 guitar for $100 to the op shop so I could eat. “

      I’m sorry but that’s just dumb

    • Erick says:

      06:24am | 12/08/11

      Well said, Penbo. Earlier in the week I thought the riots were mainly race-based, but that was just the first round. The spreading and the participation of more groups turned out to be due to a number of reasons, some of which you have summarised here.

      Some leftists go so far as to justify the riots as some sort of revolutionary act. I think these people will be disappointed to learn that there is no yearning for a better society to be harnessed here, only greed and hatred.

      An interesting side note is the failure of the police to control the crowds. It’s been suggested that affirmative action may play a part in that. Just a month ago it was reported that British police tests for riot preparedness had been watered down after a court case alleging discrimination.

      There will be much to ponder over the coming weeks.

    • acotrel says:

      07:39am | 12/08/11

      @Eric
      It is rumoured that most of the rioters were disenchanted men, who’ve been badly mistreated in the Family Court by feminists!

    • nihonin says:

      08:49am | 12/08/11

      Point the finger everywhere you like acotrel, except where it should be pointed.  But most people with common sense know where the blame lies.

    • Erick says:

      09:00am | 12/08/11

      You are a funny old bloke, acotrel.

      Since you bring it up, though, fatherlessness is a factor in these riots and other crimes.

      Society eventually reaps the consequences of the forced removal of fathers from families.

    • James Jenkin says:

      09:26am | 12/08/11

      Erick’s Law: “As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving feminism approaches 1 (100%)”

    • Rose says:

      10:07am | 12/08/11

      Okay nihonin, if you’re so clever, do enlighten the rest of us! You can’t blame race, we’ve already established that people of all races are involved and you can’t blame lazy,welfare dependent youths, it’s been clearly shown that many of the rioters are educated, employed and in some cases quite well off.
      People are too quick to blame their traditional whipping boys without bothering to scratch the surface. I have no doubt there are pissed off minorities and welfare dependent youth in the mix but that doesn’t explain everybody else,i.e.the majority of the rioters that seem to have joined in just because they could.
      One of societies biggest problems is people who are so convinced by their own ideology (Erick, Persephone etc) that they fail to look at issues in a balanced manner,their side is always right! Until we can demand our politicians look at issues objectively and not only according to their own ideology and electabilty we won’t improve the situation at all.

    • Bev says:

      10:10am | 12/08/11

      Difunctional families raise difunctional children.  Whether that is caused by well off parents showering their children with the latest clothes and widgets to compensate for their lack of parenting or by divorced mothers excluding fathers or welfare mums with serial boyfriends in the end it doesn’t matter the result is the same. No morals, no sense of right or wrong and no sense of community.  If social policy encourages difunctional and broken families (which it does) society goes to hell in a hand cart. Feminist and social engineering policies enacted by government and corporations encouraging more and more consumption and the throw away society have all played their part.

    • Shane says:

      10:34am | 12/08/11

      I didn’t see the article on 7:30 the other night but from the quote above I don’t see how you draw the justification angle.  Isn’t Mr Jasper just pointing out the the people at the pinacles of power in British society have pretty low moral standards and that they don’t set a good example for the rioters (or anyone for that matter), who also apparently have no moral standards either.  So he’s pointing to a whole country of amoral, selfish people rather than blaming one group for another.  I know that having a childish left right argument is the goal here but does the supplied quote provide fodder for your self righteous hatred???

    • Erick says:

      10:43am | 12/08/11

      @Shane - Please learn to Interweb. I didn’t say anything about Mr Jasper. I linked to three different leftist websites that attempted to justify the rioters.

      Your own self righteous hatred has blinded you to what I am actually saying.

    • Shane says:

      11:00am | 12/08/11

      My my.  I thought this was a discussion about the article above, apparently it’s all about you Erick!

      You are repeating the same assertions that I am questioning in the article.  Are you capable of responding to the questions?  Or do you just spout bile?

    • Bev says:

      11:33am | 12/08/11

      James Jenkin says:09:26am | 12/08/11

      Erick’s Law
      Since feminism is behind many of the ills of society if he didn’t raise it someone else would.

    • JS says:

      11:45am | 12/08/11

      Erick - even you have to accept that most of these kids would have “deadbeat dads” in those kinds of socio-economic groups the kids are mostly born of teenage parents who never married and dad never had any interest in the mother or the child.

    • Erick says:

      11:54am | 12/08/11

      @Shane - I’m not the one spouting bile in this thread.

      Do you have any comments relevant to the topic, or are you just here to abuse me?

    • nihonin says:

      12:07pm | 12/08/11

      Rose, what about governments legislating so parents can no longer discipline their children, psychologists telling us to treat children as if they were capable of adult thought, children being given more rights than their parents through government departments.  The legal system which rewards their antisocial behaviour with just a slap on the wrist and a ‘don’t do it again’. How about being to live on welfare as a choice and not a way to support yourself while you look for work, what about women being able to have babies to multiple fathers and collect a decent pension so as not to have to work and the kids see this and thus live on welfare once they’re adults as well.  I could go on, but I think you get the picture, they are nothing more than a bunch of scabs who believe society owes them merely because they can draw breath , plus have never been disciplined but always molly coddled by authorities due to legislation.

    • nihonin says:

      12:25pm | 12/08/11

      Allow me to modify my mothers on welfare statement (busy here at work and didn’t read everything I’d put in).  I also included fathers as well, as there are families and single father families,  where the parents quite happily set a great example for their off spring, that it is ok to sponge off the public teat and then expect to have everything handed to you.

    • fml says:

      12:35pm | 12/08/11

      You are not being abused erick, you raise a point, someone counters with a question and you fail to respond, then claiming victimhood.

      Shane seems above board to me.

    • Rose says:

      01:23pm | 12/08/11

      So that’s why there’s rioting is it nihonin? What about a society which penalizes people financially for coming off welfare (the poverty trap), what about schools in disadvantaged areas receiving less funding, being under-maintained, under-resourced and being staffed in large part by teachers who have either given up or didn’t have faith in their students in the first place (not all teachers by a long shot, but a good number of them)? What about kids being brought up with the rest of society referring to them as being “nothing more than a bunch of scabs who believe society owes them merely because they can draw breath” and other such gems, I bet that makes them want to get out there and give it a go? The fault for disadvantage is always structural, never individual, it is so because that is how society has been set up, not just in recent decades, but over centuries. Sure individuals can make a huge difference to their place in the world but if you believe that there is anything even coming close to a level playing field anywhere in the world, even Australia, you are kidding yourself!
      Back to the riots, the demographic of those involved in the riots appears so wide as to negate most people’s arguments about the exact causes and participants, bringing us back to my original point, you DO NOT know exactly who to blame, at least not yet.

    • Bev says:

      01:25pm | 12/08/11

      JS says:11:45am | 12/08/11

      Erick - even you have to accept that most of these kids would have “deadbeat dads”
      Yes but is it by choice?  Since the welfare system penalizes single mothers who have a man (not nessesarily dad) about the house There is a big incentive to ditch dad and have serial boyfriends not declared to welfare. Some do it by choice but the system discourages dads to stick around even if they want to. In Australia the biggest group cheating on centrelink are single mothers and for the above reason.  Britian is worse.

    • nihonin says:

      01:57pm | 12/08/11

      Rose, I was raised in pretty much that environment, I managed to get myself out of it, getting a job when my family and friends thought it was easier to just sit around on the dole.  I left Sydney 30 years ago to escape that crap life, got myself an apprenticeship and now manage a warehouse with 50 employees, my siblings still are bludgers and ring every now and then wanting money.  They’ve raised their kids to be like them and they believe that they are entitled to more and more for less and less effort.  It all may have started at 1st as a protest over the shooting of a criminal, but the riots which followed were the ‘must haves’ wanting it all for nothing as they believe they deserve it.  We all have the ability to make a CHOICE.

    • Erick says:

      02:01pm | 12/08/11

      @fml - Are you serious? Shane didn’t ask any relevant questions - he just posted abusive comments disguised as questions.

      “I know that having a childish left right argument is the goal here but does the supplied quote provide fodder for your self righteous hatred???”

      There’s no need for personal abuse in that question, but Shane tosses in a few insults anyway. Of course, as I pointed out, Shane was wrong about the quote and therefore the question was irrelevant.

      “Are you capable of responding to the questions?”

      I did in fact respond to the question. There was only one. And it was based on Shane’s misreading of my initial comment, therefore irrelevant.

      “Or do you just spout bile?”

      Nothing but more abuse here.

      As you can see, Shane contributed nothing but errors and abuse. Why should I respond to that? Normally | don’t bother with trolls, but occasionally I’ll analyse their comments to show how they work.

      Do you really want to associate yourself with a troll who deals in mindless abuse?

    • John the ZOmbie says:

      03:04pm | 12/08/11

      I remember my younger sister coming home from school and telling us how they had a class were the teachers were telling them thier riots. The children were given a number to call if they were abused by thier parents. She also told us that the teachers had said that grounding them “the students” was a form of abuse by parents and if the kids get grounded they can call the number and police will be notified.

    • Tom says:

      04:52pm | 12/08/11

      To all those wondering why etc. These are simply thieving bastards. People with jobs going looting, people from rich backgrounds going looting. That’s not poverty, that’s just scum. Quite a lot of it is to do with the welfare culture that has been created in Britain whereby generations of families have lived entirely on the benefit system. For them to then claim they are disenfranchised is just insulting - if you want to sit on your arse and not work as a family business then don’t complain if/when everyone looks down on you. I do not know this because “I went their on holidays in the 80s”, I know this because I am from there, was born and brought up their, and I am disgusted with the welfare poncing entitlement culture that thrives there. Any time it becomes a preference choice to live on welfare rather than work you are creating one hell of a future issue with your society as Britain has found out.

    • Chris L says:

      08:19pm | 12/08/11

      @Erick - I don’t think Shane was responding to your links but to the link in the article. I think there has been a misunderstanding.

    • TomZ says:

      10:59am | 13/08/11

      Tom, I like your posts although we don’t always have the same opinions. The posting name “Tom” is yours. I am happy to change my name from now on.
      Best regards, TomZ (formerly Tom)

    • Peter#1 says:

      06:25am | 12/08/11

      I agree that the government should have done more.
      It should have declared a state of emergency as soon as the riots began, brought in the armed forces and used live ammunition to send a loud and clear message.
      The only way to control an unruly mob such as this is by fear, fear of death. It would only take a few deaths to get the message across.
      The great irony is that the only deaths have been of innocent people trying to protect their livelihood.
      These lame, limp-wristed, apologists for these thugs should be locked up along with the people whose despicable actions they defend.

    • Sam says:

      07:27am | 12/08/11

      ‘The only way to control an unruly mob such as this is by fear, fear of death. It would only take a few deaths to get the message across.’

      Yeah, that’s working so well for the Syrians. I’m no apologist for these troglodytes, but I’m honestly more shocked at the calls for the use of ridiculous levels of force that have come from law & order types over the past few days than I am at the looting. They’re bogans, idiots pure and simple, but you lunatics calling for a democratic government to levy LIVE ROUNDS against people who are breaking into shops and stealing things are just something else. Water cannons, plastic bullets, riot shields, all fair game, but you want cops to fire hot lead at kids? Seems to me that introducing the death penalty for theft is the kind of thing you’d find in one of the imaginary Shariah societies you crazies are always foaming at the mouth about…

    • Tom says:

      08:15am | 12/08/11

      These people are bullies and bullies do not respect kindness. They only respect strength. Twenty years ago I would have argued with you, but time and time again we get a clear message that the “let’s understand them” thing encourages them to bully their fellow countrymen.

    • Anna C says:

      08:56am | 12/08/11

      I agree with Tom. You don’t get anywhere appeasing bullies; it didn’t work for Neville Chamberlain against Hitler and it certainly won’t work with these rioters. The only thing that these rioters seem to understand and respect is violence. So if it takes a show of force from the authorities to quash these demonstrations then I am all for it.

    • Tony of Poorakistan says:

      10:05am | 12/08/11

      I agree Sam.

      This situation will simmer, fester and break out on a recurring basis if something is not done. The only thing these pieces of flith understand is violence, so give them some and don’t hold back.

      Once you have made it perfectly clear, the current mob of scum will live in fear, yes, but that is not the real aim. The aim is to disrupt the cycle. The next generation or the one after will have no direct knowledge of those that died because they had no respect for society, but it will be part of their history and education that you cannot steal from people who work for what they own, just because you cannot be bothered working yourself. You WILL be punished and that punishment will be meted out at the same time you commit your crime with absolutely no mercy, no taxpayer-funded lawyers, no out-of-touch judges and no second chances.

      Along with the the summary justice (and yes, it would be justice, unlike the limp-wristed crap handed out by the courts) must come a long-term strategy to teach these people respect for the property of others and to instill the desire to work towards bettering themselves, rather than bludging off others.

    • VVS says:

      10:16am | 12/08/11

      Shoot a few warning shots above their kneecaps…?

    • Bev says:

      10:51am | 12/08/11

      Don’t agree when people are savagely put down it builds hatred and unites the mob and gives them a common purpose. Best recent example Liba or Syria.
      It continues to amaze me that water cannon is considered last not first.
      It inflicts less physical damage to people than other methods and its dam hard to maintain your rage when you are wet and soggy particularly if the weather is cold.  Difficult to use molitov cocktails or light fires when everything is drenched and it makes it easier to douse burning cars or fires as the method is on the scene.

    • Phil says:

      11:08am | 12/08/11

      Peter and Sam spot on. Using live ammo after first firing some warning shots would have calmed things down. FFS the rioters were throwing petrol bombs at authority. They deserve no mercy. This was just an excuse. I agree noone should be able to earn more on Welfare than they do in employment.,... Anyone who thinks otherwise is insane. No one holds a gun to your head and says have 7 children. Its by choice and often for more money from guvmints.
      Lets hold them personally responsible for damage caused and make community service of cleaning up in chains and brightly coloured uniforms if necessary to pay it off if they have no assets.  That and a name and shame list children included.

    • graham says:

      12:27pm | 12/08/11

      Peter 1, you are so unfair. Random shooting? No way, I think that the polce should be told to fight fair. Shoot, by all means, but no hitting below the belt!

    • MarkS says:

      01:07pm | 12/08/11

      Live ammunition would be counter productive, stupid & not required. This was not a revolt, the only use of the army would be as extra manpower.

      Pass laws allowing a greater level of aggression from the police for two weeks tops. Creative flying squads of riot police & army blockers. When a riot begins, seal off the area with the troops. Send the police in with water cannon, plastic bullets, clubs, shields, tear gas. Crush the riot, make sure it is on TV. Do it once & they stop

    • Hoper says:

      07:17pm | 12/08/11

      In my first job (1960) I met a young man who was one of the first wave of black immigrants to reach the UK.  He came from a family of generational unemployment and had siblings and friends who sat around all day and thought the world owed them a living.  He worked hard in his 48 hour week., lowly paid job and sat up all night in an unheated bedsitter and studied law.  When he graduated, he went back to his old country and became a barrister.  He rose to the silk, and used his money and influence to lift people out of poverty through education.  He was later knighted, living proof that poverty is not a genetic disorder, no matter what the circumstances and that anyone can get off their butt and get on, even in good old class riddled UK.  I used to teach in slum schools.  Some of my students who came from the worst backgrounds went on to do great things, other students continued to be no-hopers even from two parent homes with full employment.  Poverty and ‘disadvantage’ is not the cause of all evil, living down to your expectations is.

    • Sceptic says:

      06:30am | 12/08/11

      Lee Jasper = the HEIGHT of stupidity.

      Sad that someone pays him for his advice.

    • Bev says:

      01:35pm | 12/08/11

      @FML Its only a matter of time. I do not think its entirely of the left, yes there is certain amount of moddy coddling, but i would prefer a nanny state to a police state.
      I would prefer neither. 

      A certain amount of molly coddling?
       
      Many see the present nanny state as becoming overbearing.  When certain elements even talk about stiffling free speach (except theirs) we are on the edge of the slope.  Anyway extreme at both ends winds up in the same place in the end.

    • Sceptic says:

      06:37am | 12/08/11

      Finally, an intelligent article on the issue, now we only need to convince these bleeding hearts (looking at you fml, KH) that what they propose, both in cause and resolution, will NEVER have any positive effect.  Make them take responsibility for their own lives, make them get off their arse and make a conscious, social effort to society.

    • KH says:

      09:01am | 12/08/11

      Im sorry, Septic?  When did I ever say that these people should be excused?  I have always been for reducing welfare and making the rules tighter.

    • Phil says:

      09:14am | 12/08/11

      Go out with live rounds not water canons and rubber bullets, it will quickly sort them out.
      It also acts as a quick way of removing from society those who aren’t productive.
      Call it tough love for your country.

    • fml says:

      10:48am | 12/08/11

      What do you propose then sceptic?

      Shoot them, reduce welfare, heavy handedness by police?

      These were the catalyst to the event. Go in and shoot them? and what lose face infront of the world with the olympics around the corner?

      Yes, lets just shoot everyone. Why stop there lets introduce a secret police and a nanny state to ensure this never happens again.

    • Sad Sad Reality says:

      11:45am | 12/08/11

      What do you propose fml?

      Reward them for their acts of mindless savagery?

      Offer them a shoulder to cry on that they will then rip out of its socket and sell on ebay?

      More love?

      More understanding?

      More of the same?

      Cowardly attitudes like yours are why riots like this happen in the first place fml.

    • marley says:

      11:48am | 12/08/11

      @fml - shoot them?  no, not with real bullets, but I don’t have an issue with rubber bullets or a truncheon or two.  These kids are violent, and the police have every right to respond to that violence.

      As for welfare, yes indeed - if the welfare rates deter people from finishing school, or scrabbling for a living like the rest of us, then they need to be lowered.  Society is not responsible for providing the unemployed with all the perks of a middle class life style - like nice shoes.

    • Bev says:

      11:55am | 12/08/11

      fml says:10:48am | 12/08/11
      lets introduce a nanny state

      To late we already have one inflicted on us by the left.

    • Sceptic says:

      12:14pm | 12/08/11

      @fmal

      Shoot them? Such violence from a bunny hugger, such as yourself???

      I propose we let them all move into your place fml.  Your world views should change their ways, let them take care of the missus, babysit the kids while you are at work, tend to the gardens and all hug when you return home.

    • fml says:

      01:04pm | 12/08/11

      SSR no.

      Break the law go to jail.

      “Cowardly attitudes like yours are why riots like this happen in the first place fml.” No actually its because of police harassment, declining standards of living and an incompetent government thats happy to bail out immoral suits working in banks with tax payers money and send the country broke, and then punish its own tax payers..

      riots happen when the government takes away, not when it gives.

      Marley, yes they do. That is more sane a solution than Phil suggested which is live rounds.

      ” Society is not responsible for providing the unemployed with all the perks of a middle class life style - like nice shoes.” i dont think so either, but i cannot see how the current rate of welfare is enabling that.
      I can see how unfettered welfare may be a reason for some not to work, and i would like to see the statistics of continually unemployed people on welfare for extended periods as compared to the unemployed in between jobs finding it difficult to find work in the middle of a recession.

      Sceptic,

      ” propose we let them all move into your place fml. ” Classic i dont have a clue what im talking about argument, so i will put the onus on you and your house. Yes, moving them all to my house is such a valid and feasible answer, i must write immediately to david cameron and suggest this if he hasnt thought of it already. While i am at it let me take in all the homeless, desperate and refugees.

      Bev ,

      Its only a matter of time. I do not think its entirely of the left, yes there is certain amount of moddy coddling, but i would prefer a nanny state to a police state.

    • Bev says:

      02:02pm | 12/08/11

      Bev says:01:35pm | 12/08/11

      @FML Its only a matter of time. I do not think its entirely of the left, yes there is certain amount of moddy coddling, but i would prefer a nanny state to a police state.
      I would prefer neither. 

      A certain amount of molly coddling?
       
      Many see the present nanny state as becoming overbearing.  When certain elements even talk about stiffling free speach (except theirs) we are on the edge of the slope.  Anyway extreme at both ends winds up in the same place in the end.

    • Tom says:

      03:16pm | 12/08/11

      Interesting quote:
      “If you spoil a child with excessive gifts and pampering, what will happen when you stop?
      That’s right, it will have a tantrum… screaming and demanding more of the same – “I don’t want economic austerity, I want a lolly and a new train set.”
      As a parent you’ve got two options: Cave in and keep spoiling the brat. Or put up with the tantrum until the child realises things have to change.”

    • Sceptic says:

      01:17am | 13/08/11

      @fml

      Great stuff - you are at the same level as Erick, just haven’t realised it yet.

    • Fingers says:

      06:37am | 12/08/11

      It’s this simple - did the looters and rioters know right from wrong? Did they know what they were doing was against the law and a dispicable act? Yes and yes. As such, they are filthy scumbags. They weren’t starving or under immenent danger of their lives - they were opportunistic cowardly scumbags. Lock em up.

    • David C says:

      11:35am | 12/08/11

      BT it is this simple, one bad act just does not justify another

    • Bev says:

      11:51am | 12/08/11

      BT says:11:16am | 12/08/11
      I have noticed the usual muddying of waters by lefties used by them to deflect attention from their socialist policies which are the major source of the present problems.  You cannot hide any more, the society you have built sucks!

    • Nick42 says:

      12:23pm | 12/08/11

      I am sick and tired of this right saying it is all the lefts fault and the left saying it is all of the rights fault. Will you people grow up both sides have contributed to this. The Left has by going overboard on building up the welfare state for the last forty years and the right has encouraged the greed and the me me me mind think over the same period time. End result is that we have a bunch people who expect hand outs and he do not give a flying F*** for anybody i.e London

    • HappyCynic says:

      01:58pm | 12/08/11

      @Nick42

      Ending the blame game between the right and left would require both sides to engage in meaningful reforms and constructive, intelligent dialogue as well as a sh*tload of hard work and they’re too stupid and too lazy and far too immature, naive, selfish and opportunistic to even try.

      Far better to let them destroy each other - which they will eventually do.  The rabbling of the left and right will eventually reach a crescendo after which it’ll all descend into chaos.  The chaos kills off both sides and anarchy reigns for a while.  Anarchy sucks while you have to live in it but at least it cleans the slate of all the scum.

    • RyaN says:

      02:46pm | 12/08/11

      @Nick42: why is it that whenever the left stuff up something royally they say that both sides are to blame?

      Fact is, both sides are not to blame, people just getting on with their business, making money through supplying things people want to pay money for then being singled out as greedy and to blame as much as those who created a welfare state then threw open the doors to immigration from anywhere in the world is quite a long bow to draw don’t you think?

    • fml says:

      02:47pm | 12/08/11

      Happycynic,

      “Anarchy sucks while you have to live in it but at least it cleans the slate of all the scum.”

      The strong prevail from anarchy not the clean.

    • Chris L says:

      02:51pm | 12/08/11

      @Nick42 - Hear! Hear!

    • Chris L says:

      02:59pm | 12/08/11

      @RyaN - Those on your side of the political divide often talk about how other people should shoulder responsibility, but somehow the right wing is never to be held responsible, even to share the blame with the left.

    • RyaN says:

      03:26pm | 12/08/11

      @Chris L: I am sure they will take the blame where it is relevant, however accepting blame for something you didn’t do is just stupid!

    • Chris L says:

      08:23pm | 12/08/11

      “I am sure they will take the blame where it is relevant” - I am equally sure that it will never be relevant in your eyes.

    • Catching up says:

      06:39am | 12/08/11

      Where is the evidence that they are all on welfare.

      There appeared to be a mixture of race, culture,  employed and unemployed. Age range from 11 to 36.  Educated and uneducated.

      There was even a young lady from a private school.

      Not all the suburbs were poor areas.

      The behavior was not acceptable but you will have to find better reason than they are lazy and dole bludgers.

    • wakeuppls says:

      07:50am | 12/08/11

      Ok, 99% of them are. 99% of the locations that rioting took place in were in neighbourhoods with low socio-economic status. Sure, a few middle class workers may have joined in, but this was by and large a movement of self-righteous entitlement by the coddled because they have been told they have more rights than everyone else. This is reinforced when police are instructed to stand down.

    • Joseph Logan says:

      08:02am | 12/08/11

      “Catching Up” 

      Most were black -how do you know which ones were employed and those who were not?
      Young lady from a private school?  -I thought she was a BBC reporter.
      Can you come up with a sane, rational set of reasons?
      I will await your response.

    • Michael N says:

      08:29am | 12/08/11

      No - you won’t have to find better reasons at all. Penbo’s point is that these people have been taught entitlement instead of responsibility. Age and race are not central to the issue, welfare addiction transcends both and has been in place for generations. As for the private school girl; no, her parents are unlikely to be on welfare. But I don’t think that their abrogation of parental responsibility in this instance is sufficient to scuttle Penbo’s argument. Let’s get back to “teaching people how to fish” instead of just handing out the finished product.

    • Tom says:

      09:48am | 12/08/11

      No-one said they were ALL on welfare.

    • S.L says:

      06:44am | 12/08/11

      I sent a text to my London based cousin last night asking what really happened. I quote “Just a storm in a teacup” was his reply. Just as I thought.
      The riots were confined to small areas of London, Manchester etc but saying that wouldn’t sell newspapers! Rioters couldn’t give a toss about the guy who was shot by police and only saw it as an opportunity to grab some freeby’s.
      The rest of the country carried on with their business as usual….........

    • Sceptic says:

      07:11am | 12/08/11

      Unless of course it was your business that got burnt to the ground S.L.  Of course, if it doesn’t affect you or your cousin, then why care?

    • S.L says:

      08:07am | 12/08/11

      Sceptic as usual you miss the point. Of course there was businesses ruined, looted and burnt to the ground and such a tragedy it is. But in the next suburb life rolled on. There was no reason for the riots other than opportunism by crims and thugs. The shooting of the drug dealer was the excuse they were waiting for.

    • Sceptic says:

      06:45am | 12/08/11

      Watch the bleeding hearts come in today and try and convince you this is wrong.  Read carefully, you have promoted these idiot welfare systems for decades and it DOESN’T work.

    • Alison says:

      07:48am | 12/08/11

      A primary school teacher in court for his part in the riot Sceptic, you might need to get your info correct before you start on about idiot welfare systems.

    • wakeuppls says:

      08:38am | 12/08/11

      Alison is here thinking the leftist mainstream media is going to have unbiased reporting. If they can find someone that could even be remotely described as slightly right-leaning, they will include them in the reporting. By and large the majority of the rioters were handout-takers. Lets get realistic here.

    • Tom says:

      09:36am | 12/08/11

      Most people accept that the overwhelming majority of looters were welfare recipients. This would have provided mob safety for those few dopey ones who went along because they believed it was somehow cool to hurt innocent people.

      @Alison I don’t think the person you were referring to was actually a “teacher” at the primary school.

    • Anubis says:

      11:24am | 12/08/11

      @ Alison - read the article properly and you will find he was a primary school WORKER not a primary school teacher.

    • Mahhrat says:

      06:48am | 12/08/11

      Education, backed by force.  Create opportunities to succeed, and then punish those who fail?

      It’s an interesting idea, but it means shutting up the advocates for a while.  Figure out how to do THAT and we’re away, I think.

    • stephen says:

      08:21am | 12/08/11

      A lot fail, yet they don’t want to destroy the lives of those who did not.
      There’s enough variety in society, (and within that variety, differing oppurtunities for advancement) for the unusual, the energetic, and the persistent to succeed at.
      The attackers we not starving. They wanted what others had, and they we not taught, at school or otherwise, the risks that have to be taken for a good life.

    • Austin 3:16 says:

      08:17am | 13/08/11

      Define fail

    • Redeker Plan says:

      07:01am | 12/08/11

      I say we take off, nuke the entire site from orbit.  It’s the only way to be sure.

      The other night I saw a couple of teenage girl looters claiming that they were “getting our taxes back, innit?”  The likelihood that either they or their parents have ever worked a day in their life in order to pay any taxes was not discussed.

    • VVS says:

      10:22am | 12/08/11

      “We’d better get back, ‘cause it’ll be dark soon, and they mostly come at night…

      Mostly.”

    • Kurisu Sonsaku says:

      10:29am | 12/08/11

      Service guarantees citizenship.

      Would you like to know more?

    • Bev says:

      10:56am | 12/08/11

      They have been seduced by the dark side of the force.

    • VVS says:

      11:22am | 12/08/11

      “God damn it, that’s not all! Because if one of those things gets down here then that will be all! Then all this - this bullshit that you think is so important, you can just kiss all that goodbye! ”

    • Chris L says:

      11:54am | 12/08/11

      You know who they need?

      “Come quietly or there will be…. trouble.”

    • thatmosis says:

      07:28am | 12/08/11

      Good on you peter#1, couldnt have said it better. The way the Governments pander to the poor unemployed who have never had a job and who’s parents have never had a job is ridiculous. Handouts o nothing except breed generations of layabouts and gimme’s who think the world owes them a living. Add to this the namby pamby courts who hand out slaps on the wrist and this is a receipt for trouble.

    • gobsmack says:

      07:50am | 12/08/11

      What all the theories overlook are the particular dynamics of outbreaks of anarchy.
      Civilised behaviour is but a thin veneer over the more basic of human instincts.  A large portion of the population are law abiding only because they fear the punishment for breaking the law.  If conditions exist where they think they can break the law and get away with it, then they will.
      The trigger point for the riots was the shooting of the guy.  Once the riots reached a certain critical mass, it became a free for all.
      Most people don’t steal, but if a truck crashes and spills valuable goods, watch all the people run out and help themselves.

    • Chris_D says:

      07:56am | 12/08/11

      There are two (2) factors at play here, which has led to the inevitable state of chaos in London.

      1. A lack of authority/discipline from a young enough age to teach these troubled people that actions have consequences, and that they will be held responsible for their actions.

      2. That for too long academics have been in roles as advisors and policy makers, while having none, or little, actual life experience in the roles that they play/fill.

      The everyday person has seen this building over the past 10, 15, 20 years, but there concerns have fallen on largely deaf (PC/do-gooder) ears.  Now they are reaping what has been sown.

    • Bev says:

      11:07am | 12/08/11

      Say 40 years (three generations).  Starting with the hippies, flower power, the rise of feminism and social engineering mostly based on marxism or its derivitives in the late 1960’s.  They were going to build a new and better world.  Welcome to their new world!

    • Phil says:

      11:16am | 12/08/11

      Chris D Agree academics basically have no life skills as they have never left school

    • Shifter says:

      03:31pm | 12/08/11

      @Chris_D - ‘and that they will be held responsible for their actions’

      Pretty sure the vast majority won’t be in this instance.

    • Ian1 says:

      07:58am | 12/08/11

      Thanks for the article David.

      How anyone can come out in support of these monstrous activities belies belief.

    • Jay says:

      08:00am | 12/08/11

      A teacher, postal worker, daughter of a millionaire were some of the people arrested. Please tell me how these people are victims of the economic recession? The left just don’t get that you cannot keep throwing money at half baked solutions.Europe and the US just don’t have the money to throw at another Global financial crisis.Every country has to cut their budgets and probably increase taxes which is going to result in pain for a lot of people rich and poor. The quicker this is done then the quicker evreyone can get out of this quagmire.

    • Tell It Like It Is says:

      09:39am | 12/08/11

      Nearly all teachers feel obliged to be and teach left wing socialist philosophy. So no need to wonder why a teacher was there. The postal worker? Don’t know. Maybe the inevitable need in England and elsewhere to limit the social welfare, jobs etc to save the country affected this person. The daughter of a millionaire? Probably a spoiled brat and engaging in a riot was the only thing she hadn’t done yet. Or maybe she was trying to assuage her guilt at having so much. Who cares? But we don’t know enough about any of the personal circumstances of these individual , anecdotal examples. The bottom line is they are all criminals and don’t deserve anything but the full force of the law. As long as we continue to propagate the concepts of moral relativism and criminal relativism society will continue to slip out of control. What is and is not acceptable needs to be clear cut and dealt with absolutely. No exceptions for hard-luck stories, victims. You shake the dice, you pay the price.

    • Will says:

      08:03am | 12/08/11

      People will be quick to polarise the issue into bludgers vs victims. I think it’s worth considering that a problem as big as those riots is a culmination of factors.

      1. Yes some youths looted for the “fun” of it, there is no excuse.
      2. A lot of youths involved are from lower socio-economic estates and are the product of a cycle which has has bad parents breading bad children.
      3. Police powers need to be increased, as obviously a lack of deterence exists.
      4. The austerity measures brought in by Cameron may have contributed, however austerity measures are needed, because you can;t pay bills with monopoly money.

      People will try to argue that it is only one issue that caused this, try and turn a complex, multi faceted problem into a cheap one liner. Well people it’s not, it doesn’t matter what side of politics you are on, society needs to delve into these issues and work together to tackle them.

    • L. says:

      10:07am | 12/08/11

      “2. A lot of youths involved are from lower socio-economic estates and are the product of a cycle which has has bad parents breading bad children.”

      No…They are not breeding “bad” children, they are raising children badly.

      Big difference.

    • Mick says:

      12:23pm | 12/08/11

      At the rate America is churning out dollars on their Epsons you’d be surprised how much monopoly money is actually worth.

    • Sam says:

      08:05am | 12/08/11

      I class myself as a leftist, ....BUT…. I think the police handled this in the wrong way. If you ask me they should have used tear gas and rubber/beanbag bullets from the start. I dont care who you are , if you are hit with the beanbag or rubber bullet you will think twice about rioting.

      This all reminds me of the LA Riots, same words went around that the people were protesting (Rodney King from memory), but it wasnt protests it was straight out wanting to steal, the same is happening in the UK, its people wanting to cause havoc and steal for the sake of it, nothing more.

      The police needed to go in hard from the start, if you are not involved in the riots then you shouldnt be near the rioters, so the police could use all the force they need. These young people need to be taught a lesson! When they are found guilty in the court then they should be made to clean up areas they destroyed, let them hear the anger from their neighbours who lost their homes or their cars, let them be humiliated and shamed into understanding that they cannot behave this way.

    • Jay says:

      09:00am | 12/08/11

      It was the Lefty’s that stripped the police of their powers and use of force.Now they argue that they should have gone harder. Police would be thinking what will happen in 6 months time when they are charged with assault or whatever charges these bleeding hearts can come up with. I am sure Geoffrey Robertson would be the first one to take the action, knowing that he can go back to his million dollar mansion every night.

    • Andrew says:

      09:02am | 12/08/11

      Sam I am not a leftists so it is great that we can agre on this simple matterSam I am not a leftists, but I agree with your common sense response. What you haven’t touched on is the reason the police reaction was so ineffective. It is because every time the police respond to violence with violence and the image is shown on the news there is an outcry from a vocal minority about how wrong it is. These people are idiots agitating from the safety of their home yet we still take them seriously to the point where many people accept that their view is the view of the majority.

      You cannot put an old head on young shoulders. Young people need to learn from their own mistakes. In order to learn they have to know what is right and wrong. If society doesn’t reinforce these lessons then how can we expect them to learn? When they enact violence against their society they need to be taught that it will be met with violence. Those who believe there is a better way of dealing with it need to step up to the plate, get out of their lounge rooms and replace the police on the front line dealing with these thugs. Then we will see how their attitude changes.

    • Bev says:

      12:11pm | 12/08/11

      Andrew says:09:02am | 12/08/11
      Young people need to learn from their own mistakes.
      Could not agree more.  When we wrap kids in cotton wool, where every team member gets a cup, when nobody fails an exam, disciplining children is seen as damaging to their self esteem,  getting dirty or scratching their knee is verboten.  The list is endless add their rights and no responsibilities and shake but not stir.

    • UK citizen says:

      07:41pm | 12/08/11

      My brother was formerly a career policeman in one of the riot affected areas until he was invalided out because he tried to stop a public disturbance and got thrown down a flight of steps.  The reason the police in the recent riots did not start off with ‘robust policing’ is that they are not allowed to do so without express orders from above.  They do not carry arms unless ordered for a specific action, as would have happened in Duggan’s case, and they have no authority to make a decision to use tear gas, water cannons, bean bags or rubber bullets.  One police superintendant hit the nail on the head when he stated that had the officers used ‘robust policing’ from the start they would have been facing suspension without pay while the matter was investigated, claims of ‘police brutality’ and court cases for compensation.  If they got injured, like my brother, add to this many years of trying to get even the tiniest bit of compensation for being put in harm’s way by your superiors.  In these circumstances, wouldn’t you hang back even through every fibre of your being said to go in there and crack skulls?  In the event, they could do nothing until parliament was recalled to debate and determine appropriate action.

    • stephen says:

      08:10am | 12/08/11

      Paul Howe, our man in the Unions, should go again to Israel.
      He can make a comment about Brixton from there.
      (Or maybe 500 thousand marching in Tel Aviv, (you know, the only country in the Middle East with a Democracy ?) against penury might open his gob ?)

    • Sean Williams says:

      08:12am | 12/08/11

      I am not a conservative but agree that this guy Jasper is talking complete rubbish. But then there has been a great deal of rubbish spoken about this brief outbreak of madness. Anyone with any knowledge of the UK knows this sort of thing is always bubbling under the surface. You just need to listen to the music of The Clash, The Smiths, The Sex Pistols.

      However, the most rubbish spouted has been on Australian forums. The ugly schadenfreude and anti-British bitterness has been a sight to behold. David Aaronovitch in The Times/Australian today gives a little bit of welcome perspective http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/violent-young-men-will-always-be-around/story-e6frg6ux-1226113347248

      Australians need to realise that in big, complex, real countries like the USA and UK it is always dangerous to generalise. There are many Americas and there are many Britains - compare the civilised wonder that was London the weekend of the Royal wedding with this past weekend. As for those worrying that our Olympics will be anything other than first rate, dream on.

      Still glad we are giving you Aussies lots to talk about. Does ANYTHING actually HAPPEN in Australia?

    • Jay says:

      09:06am | 12/08/11

      You would be surprised. We actually are trying to accomodate a large number of Poms who are emmigrating here in record numbers.They work all their lives in the UK and come over here to spend their retirement money in our country.Why is that? i think we both know why.

    • Susan says:

      09:13am | 12/08/11

      Do I detect some bitterness towards Australia Sean? In a country of some 22 million people, there may have been around 400 comments posted on this topic, not all of them anti British, actually very few have been anti British. We can also only comment on what has been reported. So, maybe you could have a word to our newspaper editors who decide what muck to print. Australians are just bewildered like everyone else at the unfortunate happenings in some parts of England. I am surprised that you Sean, coming from a big, complex, real country, would understand this.

    • MarkS says:

      09:15am | 12/08/11

      Happy to see the poms are now forced to rely on envy of their betters to gain a tiny fraction of self esteem. My irish ancestors that had their land stolen & were then transported would be laughing from the grave.

      Sure things happen in Australia, growing economy, strong banks, mainly law abiding people. Not as exciting as pommieland maybe, with it’s entenched underclass, failing banks, rioting, but far better place to live.

      May you live in interesting times.

    • Radar says:

      10:06am | 12/08/11

      I guess if you’re not fighting off hordes of hoodies or ducking bricks then yeah…you could say nothing is happening.

    • Sean Williams says:

      01:55am | 13/08/11

      I actually lived in Australia for a year. Was offered the chance to stay on through sponsorship but frankly couldn’t take the boredom to be honest. I have nothing but good things to say about Australia, it is a perfectly pleasant place to live and I certainly feel no envy or bitterness towards it. But for all its problems and complexities I am glad to back in Britain with its vibrancy and endlessly fascinating culture. Some Aussies are so drugged on their own smugness they can’t accept that as a valid viewpoint. “Interesting times” indeed MarkS, I’ll drink to that - economies are cyclical and our banks may not be as strong but at least ours don’t gouge us with ATM and other charges. Enjoy your banal “affluence” while it lasts.

    • Seanr says:

      08:15am | 12/08/11

      Well said Penbo, argued the same points myself on this blog a couple of days ago so I won’t bother repeating them. Your comments around ‘assumed knowledge’ of the rioters on the big issues, is a good one.

      I have some sympathy for the police in all this, if they go in too hard, they might make mistakes and hurt someone innocent, if they go in too soft, they get rightly criticised for not protecting the law-abiding public.

    • AdamC says:

      09:32am | 12/08/11

      Seanr, I think many of us are guilty of using assumed knowledge to rehypothecate these events into supporting evidence for our world view. The right says the rioters are idle thugs welfarised into violent sponges, biting the teat they gulp their myriad benefits from. The left says they are unfairly disadvantaged desperates, motivated by despair at neoliberal reform and recent services cuts.

      And I have immense sympathy for the cops in all this. Any mistake they make will lead to inevitable hindsight condemnations from the ungrateful public. Meanwhile, many of these looters and thieves will probably escape serious sanction.

    • fml says:

      11:27am | 12/08/11

      I agree,

      The cops must be having serious sleep deprevation, coupled with not seeing their family, and walking out the door each morning wondering if they are going to be hurt, or if they are going to hurt anyone.

    • Dr B S Goh, Australian in Asia says:

      08:23am | 12/08/11

      All the political parties in Australia must sink their differences and learn some lessons from the recent riots in UK. They can happen here.

      We must have new laws to DEPORT any permanent resident or illegal migrants who take an active role in riots.

      We must take away the citizenship of any migrant who play an active part in a riot and be placed on three years good behavior. After three years they can reapply for citizenship.

      Incidentally the Hon Bowen said he was going to deport the people who took part in the riots in the migrant centers. Can journalists check if he has done so and if not why not?

    • PTom says:

      12:37pm | 12/08/11

      Yes, the riots could happen here but we have a few more things to screw up before that happens.

      The laws to deport are already here the only time it is not used is if the person life is at risk in their orginal country.

      How do you plan to take away citizenship from someone that is born here?

    • Dr B S Goh, Australian in Asia says:

      01:25pm | 12/08/11

      @ PTom.

      I was careful to say we take away citizenship from a migrant who behaves in this way.

      For local born if I am in charge I would put the person into a Team to spend a minimum of six months planting trees and doing other things to repair our damage to the Environment.

    • Tell It Like It Is says:

      08:29am | 12/08/11

      Exactly!  And just this week in Australia we had an Aboriginal elder pleading for the welfare handouts to stop. Short-sighted strategies to get and keep Labor votes. As I understand it, many of these people represent generations of unemployment. They don’t even understand the concept of it and probably wouldn’t take a job if offered to them regardless of what it was.  Really they are the low-life and probably already beyond recall, due to drugs and other bad choices. Always baffled me how one of or THE most responsible things a human being can do in this world and get it so wrong is so/too easy: have a baby!  We really should here and in England and elsewhere adopt the Chinese the education and health and other services for one child and the rest you’re on your own. That would certainly solve a LOT of problems. I am sick to death of hearing about this victim mentality. Children everywhere in the Western world and very often children of low socio-economic backgrounds have loads of opportunities nowadays, none of which existed when I was growing up.  And everybody has some story and many, many have hardships to work through even if you’re not Black or a migrant or whatever.  And I have never heard of a child being locked out of a school or denied education if they turn up. That said, the teachers are as hamstrung as the police these days with fears of abuse accusations. Rights have a concomitant duty of moral responsibility and so few young people, even so many here in Australia, choose to ignore that bit and just simply want what they want regardless of its impact on others or society - and they want it NOW!

    • Johor says:

      08:32am | 12/08/11

      I saw this coming during my last years teaching high school in England in the 1970s. Many of those least able kids (and they were in the majority) were lost. No incentives, no aims, poor adult role models around them at home, and not much in the way of prospects. Their lives devoted to seeking distraction from the boring meaningless of their lives. I did what I could to jolly them along but I had no real inside knowledge or understanding of what they had to put up with in the privacy of their own thoughts and feelings.

      Nothing has changed to make their lives more meaningful. In fact conditions have got worse. Add mindless use of texting and social media and the looming CCTV evidence indicating that a police state now exists in all but name. Not very effectively it seems. Now we wait while the prison bars are reinforced with rubber bullets.

      They looted because they were the frustrated consumers they had been encouraged to be by everything in their environment from day one. Consumerism offers absolutely nothing by which to live a meaningful and satisfying life unless you have been so utterly brainwashed that there is literally nothing else except buy, buy, buy and ‘keeping up with the Joneses’.

      Have you watched the “Century of the self” series? A savage indictment of the manufacturing bosses and their manipulation of the subconcious according to S Freud et al. Watch it and understand how we have all been manipulated.

      Yes, those hooligans probably did know the difference between right and wrong - when at a time and of a mind to consider it. Politicians also know the difference between right and wrong when it comes to managing an economy for the benefit of EVERYONE.

      Unless you are a closet Tory Pendo, you should understand that.

    • Ella says:

      09:25am | 12/08/11

      Agree, I worked over there for a year about 10 years ago, and wasn’t really surprised by the riots. Most of the problems I noticed stemmed from three things. Firstly, the incredibly low minimum wage. I think it was less that $10 an hour when I was there, and that was for an adult. Not much incentive to get off the dole when you can barely make a living working 40 hours a week. Second was the enclaves of social housing. They build big estates of these houses and flats and cram in the unemployed, and unemployable. All the research tells you this is a bad idea. It creates a culture. If they interspersed their social housing with normal housing like we mostly do in Australia they would have less problems. If your neighbours are getting up and going to work everyday, are socially engaged you are less likely to feel like its okay to sit around all day doing nothing, at the very least the kids get some different role models. The third problem was the culture of drinking. Young people would go out for an evening with the sole aim of getting off their faces and getting in a fight. And that was the girls I worked with, who were in all other respects decent upstanding members of society. Mostly I think they were just bored. The other thing that shocked me was the extremely high levels of teen pregnancy. Apparently they have the worst levels in Europe. Which kind of indicates something is going wrong with their education system.

    • Bev says:

      11:17am | 12/08/11

      Ella says:09:25am | 12/08/11
      The other thing that shocked me was the extremely high levels of teen pregnancy
      When you can live better by using a child as a welfare meal ticket than by working.  Many take that option.

    • Kika says:

      11:27am | 12/08/11

      I agree Ella.  Unless you know what it’s like in the UK, no one should be able to comment. Their public housing, minimum wage and etc is NOTHING like it is here. The dole bludgers here live like Kings compared to what it is back there. The teen pregnancy rate in the UK is the highest anywhere in the developed world, young kids joining gangs because the gang offers them a family which they don’t have (particularly for kids with no father figures in their lives).

      Another difference here is that we don’t have a class system and want to see kids doing well, whereas in the UK they’ve turned a blind eye to the poor for hundreds if not a thousand years.

      FOR EXAMPLE - if you like linguistics… how can you have 2 ‘languages’ between people who by all intensive purposes are the same nationality and ethnicity, but live only 7km apart?

    • marley says:

      12:33pm | 12/08/11

      re the minimum wage thing - sorry, but Australia is the odd man out on that, not the UK.  Canada, the US and the UK all have relatively similar minimum wages;  Australias’s is nearly twice as high.

      The issue isn’t the minimum wage, it’s that welfare payments are as high or higher, so there’s no incentive to take an entry level job.

    • Mark says:

      08:41am | 12/08/11

      Hey Sean… you call the UK and USA “real” countries?  USA has it’s credit rating dropped and UK has riots like this.  Australia has good credit rating and no riots like this…...so which country is the real one….....UM me thinks it’s here in OZ.  Typical comment from a pig headed POM….......

    • Mahhrat says:

      09:09am | 12/08/11

      *cough* Cronulla couple years back *cough*

    • MarkS says:

      11:51am | 12/08/11

      @Mahhrat
      The Cronulla riots were very different, but with the some of the same underlying issues. A bunch of people of no respect for other Australians would turn up at Cronulla & act as ignorant boors & petty crims.

      The local people objected & asked the police to do something, they did nothing. When a life saver was bashed the local people decided to protect themselves.

      A bit like the way that many local groups in Britain began to form groups to defend themselves against the rioters.

      So the statement “no riots like this’ is quite correct. So you are “cough” wrong “cough”

    • Mahhrat says:

      12:23pm | 12/08/11

      MarkS, nerve touched much?

      A riot is a riot is a riot.  Perhaps 1 in 20 rioters genuinely feel the pain causing the riots, the rest are troublemakers out for a good mob time. 

      If the sentiments expressed in Cronulla were the genuine feelings of all present, it would have been the much more meaningful “revolution” and stuff would’ve got changed.

    • James1 says:

      01:00pm | 12/08/11

      MarkS, the fact of the matter is they went beyond protecting anyone, and started rioting.  Regardless of any provocation, it was simply wanton criminality and thus totally unjustifiable.

    • MarkS says:

      01:20pm | 12/08/11

      I recall the all arson & looting from the so called Cronulla riot. Wut wait

    • PTom says:

      03:35pm | 12/08/11

      MarkS,

      The first day was local people protesting about volience got out of control because of the size and lack of orgainzation supoort to control that night and the next organized group came in from outside the area to cause trouble.
      A riot is a riot so which one is the riot? The two nights of organized attacks or the protest that got out of control that caused little damage?

    • James1 says:

      04:36pm | 12/08/11

      Ah. So in your mind, no burning and no looting means its perfectly okay to riot, break the law and act like a petty thug.

      Whatever floats your boat MarkS, but to me, all criminals are the same.

    • nossy says:

      08:42am | 12/08/11

      Well Penbo UK PM David Cameron has called for rubber bullets etc - whatever it takes to stop the crims and he is right to do so. I know if I was staggering out of a trashed Harvey Norman store with a stolen 130cm Plasma and a “jack” tazered me, battoned me in the “knackers” and shot me up the arse with a rubber bullet it would make me question, perhaps almost immediately, if I should continue to pursue this illicit interest free “transaction”!  hahahahahaahah

    • Joseph Logan says:

      09:07am | 12/08/11

      I was wondering what would be your I.Q?
      Is below zero possible?
      Such profanity, so childish!

    • nossy says:

      09:51am | 12/08/11

      @Joseph Logan - get a life Joey you pratt! Cant you see it was a pisstake you moron! Does mummy know you are using her PC?  hahahahahhaha

    • graham says:

      11:54am | 12/08/11

      @joseph logan. Your children use “such profanity”? You must teach them some respect. They might become rioters, otherwise.

    • nihonin says:

      01:12pm | 12/08/11

      nossy, more profound then profane mate.

    • TomZ says:

      11:05am | 13/08/11

      Joseph Logan, you need to learn tha Nossy is smarter than his rantings indicate. The problem (as with all of us) is that he is sometimes not as smart as he thinks he is.

    • Lady Fong says:

      08:43am | 12/08/11

      DP, talk about missing the point…there is massive anger and pentup frustration among black people in UK [oops, did the Monarchy fail them?]. It is the same response from black people in US…the mentality is, if I can’t have it then you can’t have it, either. The US got the message pronto.  Further, the riots show massive lack of wisdom in the UK…the black population is there to stay, everything needs to be done to make all peoples equal and comfortable. Perhaps the politicos should all take a fact finding trip to Singapore where very wisely and intelligently a multiracial society lives harmoniously with great success. London pinched the idea of a tax to enter the city centre, and then behaved as if they had invented it.
        Then there is over policing of black people…if you are black, ipso facto, you must be a criminal.
          What about the black leadership…prancing and preening in the house of lords and the commons.
          Ideology and philosophy come into the equation as well: Why did David Cameron meet the riots with massive force when he should have been wiser before the riots to have met the needs of people with massive love and massive job creation policies.
          Ah, England, ‘they know not I knew thee, who knew thee too well, long long shall I rue thee, too deeply to tell.’

    • marley says:

      09:28am | 12/08/11

      Take a look at the rioters, Madame Fong. At the beginning, it might have been primarily black kids, but by the end it was all races, mostly young, mostly unemployed, mostly ferals.

      And one of the problems of these riots is that Cameron and the police did NOT meet the rioters with massive force.  I reckon the Singapore police would have been one hell of a lot more violent in response than the British police were.  Maybe that’s why Singapore runs so nicely - a good bit of oppression makes for peace, doesn’t it?

    • Lady Fong says:

      10:56am | 12/08/11

      don’t forget, singapore is a much loved democracy. why must you call law and order in singapore oppression. examine the words you use—-always!

    • fml says:

      11:57am | 12/08/11

      Marley,

      “a good bit of oppression makes for peace, doesn’t it?”

      Surely not, what level of oppression is acceptable? how have people generally reacted to oppression? Being tougher on criminals is one thing, being tougher on the entire population to prevent the probability of a riot is something else entirely.

    • MarkS says:

      12:02pm | 12/08/11

      @Lady Fong
      It takes more then fixed elections & a ruling party to never loses power to make a democracy. Singapore is not a democracy. Examine the words you use.

    • marley says:

      08:56am | 13/08/11

      @fml - look up the word “irony.”

    • Anna C says:

      08:51am | 12/08/11

      Lee Jasper needs to take his head out of his arse. I cannot believe how blinkered some people can be in denying the role that the overtly generous welfare state has had on these riots. 

      Welfare should be a safety-net not a way of life. The example of the Davey family from Anglesea, North Wales clearly demonstrates what is wrong with the welfare system not only in Britain but also in Australia. As a former Centrelink worker for ten years I saw first hand how our welfare system encourages people to decline job offers and stay on benefits because they are better off financially doing so. The financial barriers that prevent people from taking up work need to be removed ASAP. It is depressing and disappointing seeing generations of the same family living on welfare and having nothing to aspire towards when their are opportunities available to those who show a little initiative.

    • Jay says:

      09:16am | 12/08/11

      If people have seven kids how are they meant to feed, shelter and clothe them? Understand what you are saying, however unless it is legislated that poor people cannot breed not sure how you can overcome this problem. If you do not support them then crime and riots will become a common thing.

    • Anna C says:

      09:45am | 12/08/11

      Jay, the government can start addressing these issues by removing the barriers to work which currently exist in this country such as changing the tax rules so that families aren’t disadvantaged financially when they move from welfare to work. It is important and cost effective to give people financial incentives to take up work. People who work committ fewer crimes, have better health and a sense of well being than people living on welfare. Giving people financial incentives to take up work is a good long term investment in our society.

    • Echo says:

      12:39pm | 12/08/11

      @Jay - how about they don’t have 7 kids if they can’t afford to feed, shelter and clothe them or they go out and get a job? how hard is it? even if it’s sewer worker or cleaner, I don’t care if it’s not your glamerous ‘dream job’ just get off your arse and earn the money.

      I agree Anna C, I would ‘earn’ the same wage I am on now on a single parent pension, it’s crazy.  like you said it should be a safety net not a career

    • Fromage67 says:

      01:26pm | 12/08/11

      ““As a former centrelink worker” u should know better. Anyone who calls 450 dollars a fortnight “encouraging people to stay on welfare”, seriously needs to rethink their comments

    • Anna C says:

      02:20pm | 12/08/11

      Fromage67, I am not talking about singles or couples here. I am talking about families receiving Newstart Allowance, Parenting Payment (maximum rate) and Family Tax Benefits (maximum rate), Rent Assistance (maximum rate). Once one of the parents starts work they lose their Newstart Allowance (as expected) and the partner may lose a significant proportion of their Parenting Payment, Family Tax Benefit and Rent Assistance. 

      Once you factor in the amount of tax that they now have to pay because of their new employment, many families are left no better off financially than before. Is it any wonder that some people question why they should bother working 40 hours a week when they are no better off financially than if they had stayed at home and collected welfare. This is why I believe governments should provide financial incentives so that people on welfare can grasp work and other opportunities as they come along and better themselves.

    • Bot Boy says:

      03:49pm | 12/08/11

      @ Anna C “It is important and cost effective to give people financial incentives to take up work”
      That’s why they are lifting the Tax free threshold to $18,000 as part of the Carbon Tax reforms - good idea.

    • PTom says:

      04:04pm | 12/08/11

      Anna C.
      So changing the threshold limit to 18,000 is now a good idea that you have previously opposed.

      Nice work mix up the benefits.
      ” Newstart Allowance, Parenting Payment (maximum rate) and Family Tax Benefits (maximum rate), Rent Assistance (maximum rate)” Trying to implie everyone can get.

      Will maybe you should read abit more then just guess.
      Newstart Allowance - Unemployment paid to the adult for a single adult not the family.
      Parenting Payment - Was to cover the childern on unemployed parents, Stops when the child turns 6 now. Thanks Labor.
      Family Tax Benefits - you have to make a tax claim to get. Thanks Howard.
      Rent Assistance - Only if you rent privately. No public housing.

    • Tator says:

      08:10pm | 12/08/11

      Ptom,
      difference between public housing and private housing is that public housing rents are determined on your income whilst the market determines private rents.  Now if someone is on benefits such as the parenting payment and newstart allowance, their income is determined on those amounts with the basic components in FTB Part A exempt.
      http://www.sa.gov.au/upload/franchise/Housing, property and land/Housing SA/Rent_charges.pdf for SA’s income definitions.  Plus the rents are limited to 25% of total household income.

    • Joe says:

      09:00am | 12/08/11

      The perps simply dont have the education or parental support that allows them to make any other choice. That doesn’t mean they aren’t criminals and the worst kind of bludger but as Penbo says:

      ” If you tell people that life is all take and no give then some of them will end up literally taking things off shop shelves.”

      All that these thugs are measured on by in their peer group is how much they can get away with. They aren’t even part of the system (except maybe the criminal justice system). How can we expect them to conform to our own values when they have never been taught to live by them?

      How do we teach kids from this sort of background how to live better? Or should we just lock them up and forget about them? As if that’s not exactly what has contributed to the problem.

    • Gregg says:

      09:03am | 12/08/11

      I reckon you could be close to getting 100% consensus on agreeing with you on this one Penbo.
      It does however send something of a known message and that’s when times get really tough, you can expect crime to rise.

      Once had a work acquaintance in an organisation facing a lot of changes through privatisation, quite an upstanding down to earth chap who did surprise me one day when we were as workmates do having a bit of a chit chat and he came out and said if he was desperate, he would probably become criminal to support his family.
      That’s somewhat different though to what we have seen with these riots.

      Probably a lot worse potential in many countries and the Dominoe falls may well continue, eventually to good ol Oz.

      Giving credit to the ABC for some things, 4 corners gave a good insight into Naples and Comorra (Mafia ) problems on Monday and didn’t Leigh’s hair frame her better last night on 7:30, all wavy rather than straight.

      Meanwhile Greece has a different approach to asylum seekers, virtually just letting them in and letting them go if they promise to leave within a month!, Fat Chance!

    • KH says:

      09:14am | 12/08/11

      As I said yesterday - both sides of politics in this country like to throw money around like its confetti at election time.  It buys votes, and all they are interested in is winning an election.  They have no vision, and no spine.  Once upon a time welfare was a dirty word.  People were ashamed to take it.  My mum came from that generation - she finally got a pension at 73 - she worked right up until that age.  Fortunately, I have the same attitude.  Sadly, this shame has gone, and now its ‘ok’ to take government handouts.  But hey, when you are handing them out to people who do work, and drive nice cars and own houses, what do you expect?  When the cut off for some benefits is a household income of $150K (and some people are arguing that isn’t ‘well off’!), you can only be left shaking your head in total bewilderment.  Welfare has been made respectable.  Where is the party who will finally put a stop to it?  Who will say that welfare is only for those truly in need?  There are a group who will always remain unemployable - due to disability, or illness, or just stupidity.  But most people claiming handouts in this country are well capable of work.  I would vote for the party who would stop the rot.  Sadly, they don’t exist.  We may not be as bad as the UK yet, but we are certainly going in the right direction.  Maybe now is the time to learn from others’ mistakes, instead of blindly travelling the same path, despite knowing the result.

    • Augie says:

      09:19am | 12/08/11

      Slowly but surely the breakdown of society has occurred before peoples eyes.The corrupt supposed people in power who should be role models.The traditional values which were in force, but accepted have gone out of the window.There is no fear of parental control,teachers,and most of all the police who are really the first and last line of defense.Also the young people of today cannot differentiate between fantasy and reality.The whole system of society needs a major overhaul.The power of control has gone from parents,teachers,police.And has been handed on a plate to the young people of UK who can’t handle it due to their immaturity.They revert back to the law of the jungle.Running amok in packs like wild dogs on a rampage.

    • Tom Green says:

      09:23am | 12/08/11

      David
      Like the British PM your analysis is too superficial. A parental ‘you shouldn’t be doing this” and “you are naughty people”
      Tom

    • Anna C says:

      09:31am | 12/08/11

      I heard on the radio that over the last few years people convicted of burglary/stealing have not been going to prison but instead getting a slap on the wrist from the judiciary due to changes to government policy. For some reason governments have deemed that burglary/stealing were not bad enough crimes requiring incarceration. Go figure????

      I think that by removing the deterrent effect that a possible jail sentence can have on people considering committing these crimes, the authorities have sent out a message to the community that stealing will be tolerated and that you will only get a slap on the wrist if convicted. I think this is partially to blame for the widespread looting we have witnessed during the riots.  We have seen people looting shops from all backgrounds from welfare bludgers to chefs, teacher’s aides and graphic designers taking part. I think that these looters were a bunch of opportunists who knew that even if they were caught for stealing that they wouldn’t face the full force of the justice system. How wrong they were.

    • Kika says:

      10:56am | 12/08/11

      It has been proven for a long, long time that jail has no deterrent value on people committing crimes. Jails were designed to ‘rehabilitate’. They clearly don’t.

      They are now seen as social gathering points for kids and almost like a right of passage for the dregs of society. In fact, they are a breeding ground for criminality and gangs.

      The only purpose for jails is to keep us all happy and safe knowing that the bad guys are locked up away from us.

    • malohi says:

      11:58am | 12/08/11

      The whole left ideology responsible for this mess is captured perfectly in your representation that jails are for rehabilitation.
      no, they were originally for punishment, deterrent and safety of the community on the outside.
      Not everyone is an inherently good person just waiting for a lefty saviour to paternalistically reform them. There are people who are just lazy and selfish. there are people who will bash you for the fun of it and as we have seen there are people who, with little prompting will destroy your things and burn your house because it is there and they want to see it burn.

      The awareness of consequences for your actions the corollary of which is responsibility must be enforced to keep society running. If vocal paternalistic ideals are allowed to flourish and remove the priorities of punishment and segregation as accountability such that they yeild almost completely to rehab, the house of card eventualy falls.

      tl;dr - left approach to criminal responsibility= smug paternalism = no discentive for criminal behaviour.

    • Anna C says:

      12:13pm | 12/08/11

      Kika, if jail doesn’t have a deterrent effect on criminals then what do you suggest the authorities do? The authorities can’t keep turning a blind eye to petty crime and they certainly don’t have the funds to turn jails into places where criminals can be rehabilitated?  If the only purpose of jails is to keep us all happy and safe knowing that the bad guys are locked away from us as you suggest, well you know that’s good enough for me.

    • Kika says:

      01:48pm | 12/08/11

      Malohi - since when? Have you done much study? I did. The first concept of a jail was invented back by Jeremy Bentham in the early 19th Century. Prior to that corporal punishment was the preferred punishment - flogging or hanging etc. Bentham realised that these offenders need to be ‘reformed’ from their criminality and sent to institutions to help make them better people. The concept hasn’t changed.

    • GB says:

      01:52pm | 12/08/11

      Wrong Kika. Jails were never originally designed to “rehabilitate”. They were designed to punish criminals and keep the law abiding members of society safe from said criminals. The rehabilitation aspect is a late 20th century invention, designed not out of any altruistic feeling of “everybody deserves a second chance” but more out of necessity as a result of overcrowding and spiralling associated costs. It’s a shame the English don’t have a foreign legion like the French as that is where I’d be sending these self-entitled little shits.

    • Kika says:

      03:43pm | 12/08/11

      Rubbish. Google Jeremy Bentham and learn something instead of making an ass out of u and me.

    • malohi says:

      05:41pm | 12/08/11

      Kika- your reference to Bentham was interesting, but you will of course note that the concept of dungeons and confinement of prisoners dates back to biblical times. Isolation and solitude (excommunication etc) have been used as real punishments or centuries. Not solely for rehab.

      The ideals of Bentham however do not distract from my point, instead personify the focus of it. These paternalistic beliefs that all can be reformed and it is up to us to do it for these poor souls is the basis of our weak system, it is the concept that is underpinning the uproar on this very topic; that (normal)  society is implicitly at fault for the crims and bears their yoke, rather than the crim themselves accounting for their crimes .
      I have no problem with rehabilitation, it surely works to some extent and would save us millions. However, if all punishment (corporal, capital even deprivation of freedom/comforts) is pushed so far to the back in favour of rehab (ie current state of police/court powers and jail conditions) where is the real deterrant to not commit crimes?

      For example, I have prosecuted a case in which there was a robbery of a hotel, staff tied up, knife to throats the whole deal. The junkie crook paid off his drug debts (over $65 k ) went on a shopping spree for him and his mrs and the other $40 k is unaccounted for.
      He spent 2 years in jail, more comfortable than his previous conditions and is now out. They money he is to repay is on his SPERs account which comes out of his centrelink (yep, eligible) at the rate of $15 a fortnight. Where is the deterrent? All I thought at the end was he probably made a smart business decision.

    • malohi says:

      05:41pm | 12/08/11

      Kika- your reference to Bentham was interesting, but you will of course note that the concept of dungeons and confinement of prisoners dates back to biblical times. Isolation and solitude (excommunication etc) have been used as real punishments or centuries. Not solely for rehab.

      The ideals of Bentham however do not distract from my point, instead personify the focus of it. These paternalistic beliefs that all can be reformed and it is up to us to do it for these poor souls is the basis of our weak system, it is the concept that is underpinning the uproar on this very topic; that (normal)  society is implicitly at fault for the crims and bears their yoke, rather than the crim themselves accounting for their crimes .
      I have no problem with rehabilitation, it surely works to some extent and would save us millions. However, if all punishment (corporal, capital even deprivation of freedom/comforts) is pushed so far to the back in favour of rehab (ie current state of police/court powers and jail conditions) where is the real deterrant to not commit crimes?

      For example, I have prosecuted a case in which there was a robbery of a hotel, staff tied up, knife to throats the whole deal. The junkie crook paid off his drug debts (over $65 k ) went on a shopping spree for him and his mrs and the other $40 k is unaccounted for.
      He spent 2 years in jail, more comfortable than his previous conditions and is now out. They money he is to repay is on his SPERs account which comes out of his centrelink (yep, eligible) at the rate of $15 a fortnight. Where is the deterrent? All I thought at the end was he probably made a smart business decision.

    • SirNose says:

      09:32am | 12/08/11

      O for Gawds sake,

      yet another article of “lets look at this stupid guy who thinks he knows all the reasons behind these events.  He can’t know the the reasons because ONLY I know the real reasons.  Let me shine my light of superior knowledge on a society I don’t belong to and have only gleened details from occasionally reading the London papers. “

      At which point all the culture warriors jump on their bandwagons, those agreeing saying things like “Finally, an intelligent article on the issue” and accusing the others (in a major feat of straw-man-idge) of somehow being in support of the oppertunistic, selfish thugs by being rude enough to ask why. Those against nit-pick small issues (like that maybe only 95% of the looters were on welfare) and claim this undermines the whole argument.

      This is getting as petty and pointless as the disgusting Left-Right bickering over the Norway slaughter.

      Right now, Englands stuffed - It’s a law and order issue, so get the streets under control and then let the chattering right and left classes gaze at each others navels.

    • Govt@FauxCitizen says:

      09:36am | 12/08/11

      We too can expect the same some day, thousands of kids going to school refusing to take advantage of a perfectly fine and free education whilst there are even some rebelious ones taught in the private system, they at least have some knowlege of their parent/s working and or attempting to own their own home….I’ve got London to a brick most of these"rioters” are under educated, unemployed and live in public or subsidised housing, the others have their own anarchistic agenda.

      Bludger generation and fatherless ferral children will always go on to produce the same whole sub-society that has low self esteem no sense of community or core family values.
      Thanks largely to the variety of social engineers who make a mockery of parental control, organised Christian religion, family, marriage and divorce. You cannot expect a child to learn these fundamental core values in their adulthood.

    • Kika says:

      10:51am | 12/08/11

      Like!!

    • Echo says:

      12:49pm | 12/08/11

      why are you blaming single mothers? not all children of single mothers are ferral, I have kids and am a single parent but mine sure as hell aren’t ferral. I have a great system for keeping them under control in public. they fear me. and it works well

    • Kika says:

      01:44pm | 12/08/11

      How old are they Echo?

    • Bev says:

      01:59pm | 12/08/11

      Echo says:12:49pm | 12/08/11

      why are you blaming single mothers? not all children of single mothers are ferral
      The exception does not make the rule. When nearly one third of Australian children are growing up in fatherless households and a far greater percentage in Britian and a great many are turning out feral I believe its time to question a system that condones and encourages such a social arrangement don’t you?  Don’t tell me these are all “deadbeat”  hopeless dads because that would be BS.

    • John the Zombie says:

      03:41pm | 12/08/11

      Dont forget the feral party gate crashers. How many times have the police been called to the party due to riots and fights only to be pelted by rocks. Recently a female officer was attacked by a mob in WA. What will the punishment be for these louts? A slap on the wrist because of the leftist policies. These louts have no respect for the police or law and order.

      Also not to bring immigration into this but look at the recent riots. What is the punishment of those who took part. Ow it wont look good on your assesment. Dont forget a group who a couple of years ago also rioted and burnt a building down were given visa to reside in the community till there full assesment is done. Where in th punishment for the burning of the centres.

    • Echo says:

      05:34pm | 12/08/11

      twin 3 yr olds and a 5 year old.

    • iansand says:

      09:38am | 12/08/11

      The riots are inexcusable, but Jasper should be listened to.

      The authorities need to know what caused the riots if they are to minimise the likelihood of recurrence.  While Japer may be loopy what he is saying may be a factor in the underlying cause of the events.  If it is a factor it should be considered.  If there is a reasonable way to address that factor, it should be addressed.

      There are almost certainly other factors, possibly far more significant than those that Jasper identified..  They should also be considered, and addressed if reasonably possible.

      Or the authorities may decide that the whole thing was a bizarre one off, and that nothing needs to be done.

      Of one thing I am absolutely sure - any solution or cause suggested by me would be proposed in a complete factual vacuum, and should be ignored.  Dare I suggest that, among Punchers, I would be in the huge majority?

    • Kika says:

      10:50am | 12/08/11

      I agree. I can’t fathom in my head how so many kids, not just in few isolated areas, but ACROSS the country don’t have that switch in the head that will tell them it’s not right to set someone’s house on fire. Ya-know-woh-I-mean?

    • JR says:

      09:39am | 12/08/11

      Some of the commenters here are just as naive as the ‘do-gooders’ who punish offenders with kid gloves. Rubber bullets and water cannons will get the scum off the streets but won’t do anything more than provide a short-term patch over a complex series of issues that have been brewing for years.

    • marley says:

      12:59pm | 12/08/11

      Getting the kids off the street may not address the root issues, but it will protect lives and property.  That’s what the police are there for.  Let the social workers and the politicians address the core issues, though I fear they’re the ones that caused some of them in the first place.

    • Helen says:

      10:18am | 12/08/11

      Lee Jasper was followed up by a respected Birmingham Youth Worker who basically said “yeah the world DOES owe these youths a living”..while you’ve got to applaud someone who puts in the hard yards with troubled youth, everything this fellow said was pure bulldust laden with excuses. Perhaps the number one priority should be a vast improvement to the quality of youth workers on the streets. If this fellow and Lee Jasper are any example of people “listening to and guiding” British youth then no wonder these rioters are such disrespectful, arrogant sods.

    • SteveS says:

      10:28am | 12/08/11

      Could it be that young and old, working and dole bludgers, educated and uneducated, whites and blacks, were all venting their anger at the most oppressive police state on the face of the earth that ever existed? In the only way they know how? The way they were thought for last 20 or so years to listen to and to respect :The Law of the Jungle?
      inst Great Britain a leader in attacking other countries all over the world in the last 20 years? Killing, maiming, destroying, thieving, pillaging, wrecking havoc on the lives on millions? Teaching people that the might is right? That stealing others peoples fortunes is fine? That destroying many century old towns is somehow justified?
      The thugs in Britain were doing exactly what their own country does , day in , day out, but on the much grander scale.
      Baghdad museum artifacts anyone? Libya and its oil resources? Afghanistan and the gas supplies? Kosovo and its mineral resources?

    • Kika says:

      10:48am | 12/08/11

      20 years? They have been thugs of the world since Sir Francis Drake!!

    • Anna C says:

      10:56am | 12/08/11

      SteveS if you seriously think that England is the most oppressive police state on the face of the earth that ever existed, then you don’t obviously don’t have a good grasp of history or of current affairs. I think a nice little visit to North Korea would probably put things into perspective for you.

    • Kika says:

      11:11am | 12/08/11

      AnnaC - The UK cops are very heavy handed. Much more so than here. I know from personal experience.

    • Anna C says:

      12:02pm | 12/08/11

      @ Kika I am willing to believe you when you talk about the heavy handedness of police in the UK, however for SteveS to suggest that England is the worst police state of all time is just laughable.

    • marley says:

      12:38pm | 12/08/11

      Steve - if you want to know about oppressive police states, why don’t you do a bit of reading on Stalin’s USSR?  or Mao’s China?  or Ceausescu’s Romania?  How about Franco’s Spain?  Hell, most of the police in the UK still don’t even carry guns, the UK has laws on habeas corpus, and you think this is the most oppressive police state ever?  You don’t know what you’re talking about.

    • Lee says:

      10:34am | 12/08/11

      [A]ny breakdown of civil order is inescapably political. Quite large numbers of mostly young people have decided that, on balance, they want to take to the streets and attack the forces of law and order, damage property or steal goods. Their motives may differ — they are bound to differ. But their actions can only be understood adequately in political terms. While the recklessness of adrenaline has something to do with what is happening, the willingness to act is something to be explained. We should perhaps ask them what they were thinking before reaching for phrases like “mindless violence”. We might actually learn something.

    • fml says:

      11:40am | 12/08/11

      ” I’ve heard Theresa May and the Old Etonians whose hols have been curtailed (many would say they’re the real victims) saying the behaviour is “unjustifiable” and “unacceptable”. Wow! Thanks guys! What a wonderful use of the planet’s fast-depleting oxygen resources. Now that’s been dealt with can we move on to more taxing matters such as whether or not Jack The Ripper was a ladies’ man. And what the hell do bears get up to in those woods?”

      Hahah gold

    • jaki says:

      10:45am | 12/08/11

      What a pity that they can’t send all these “poor, disadvantaged” f***wits to Somalia to live for a while. Then they might realise what being poor and disadvantaged is all about. These morons aren’t out stealing food to keep from starving to death. Nah, it’s all about getting an x-box or trainers, innit ?

    • Tchom says:

      11:04am | 12/08/11

      But surely the British have a problem with their culture then, right? Or were all these kids just born selfish?

    • fml says:

      11:32am | 12/08/11

      Damnit why dont these kids realise they should be happy to be poor! there are poorer kids in africa and they can only afford reeboks!

    • marley says:

      11:56am | 12/08/11

      @fml - no, the kids shouldn’t be happy to be poor. But committing arson, looting stores, mugging people in the streets, all for cellphones and shoes, isn’t exactly going to address the situation, is it?  Getting an education will.  Putting your backside into getting a job and starting up the employment ladder will.  But not wanton destruction and theft.

    • jaki says:

      12:17pm | 12/08/11

      Jeez, you’re pathetic. Anything to excuse violent thugs, eh ? Compared to the misery and starvation of the Somalians, these morons aren’t poor. Did the starving Somalians co-ordinate their famine using their Blackberries ? Are they on Twitter complaining about their hunger pains ? Just how poor is that millionaires daughter, or the primary school teacher, or the Olympics ambassador , etc.? They’ve got clothes, food, shelter, welfare. There are millions of people with none of that and you don’t see them smashing up the businesses of people that have worked hard for it.

    • Tchom says:

      01:16pm | 12/08/11

      You guys seriously aren’t interested in the conditions that caused this to happen? It’s just “kids don’t work hard enough. They should go to school and get a job”. It’s as black-and-white as that to you? You don’t think that this is a sympton of a deeper problem? Punishing these kids will make everything go back to the way it was before? Questioning the conditions which raised to kids to be like this isn’t excusing their behaviour, all it is is trying to understand what would make kids do this

      http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/joepublic/2011/aug/09/tottenham-young-people-riot-future?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487

    • fml says:

      01:20pm | 12/08/11

      Marley, Jaki,

      Yes i know looting isnt the answer, but nor is simply saying there are poorer kids in africa, so buck up and get an education.

      Marley, University fees have tripled, cost of living has increased, its a recession, the economy is stagnant, people are/have losing/lost their jobs. The government needs to act to improve the employment situation. Telling someone to get off their arse and get a job when there are limited opportunities or telling someone get an education when the price of education has increased dramatically, all the while the government is doing nothing to improve the situation, but infact actively making it worse is an exercise in futility .

      The government has ignored the situation, and now are wondering why this has happened.

      Now answer me this, if the government spent money on creating jobs, and made education cheaper, would this riot have occurred? Using australia as an example, high employment opportunities, access to private and public education, and the last riot we had was a race riot.

    • marley says:

      02:49pm | 12/08/11

      @fml - yes, university fees have increased and that is, in my view a mistake.  But I don’t think most of the rioters were on a track to university, at least not to judge by their apparent unfamiliarity with grammar or words of more than one syllable.  What they need is to finish secondary school, not drop out and start on the dole at the age of 16.  And secondary school in the UK is free, after all.  So no, I don’t entirely buy your argument about education.

      As for the government “creating jobs” - well first, governments hardly ever create jobs, private industry does.  Second, people have to be willing to take those jobs - and a lot of these kids aren’t.  See the comment below about “shovelling shit.”  Or take a look at how many jobs in the UK (or here for that matter) are filled by backpackers and foreign workers because the locals won’t or can’t do them.  And yes, there’s a high youth unemployment rate in the UK - around 20%, but Australia’s isn’t massively better at 20% for under-19s and 12% for under 24s.


      Basically, I think that, while the government has to carry some of the blame for this, we need to look a lot deeper.  Cuts to the numbers of public servants didn’t cause 17 years olds in Manchester to riot.  There really is a class and social issue that goes well beyond unemployment rates or university fees here.

    • jaki says:

      03:00pm | 12/08/11

      @fml
      If they were marching through the streets with placards, demanding fairness for all, then you might have a point. But they’re just smashing things up, burning buildings, killing innocent people and stealing .
      If a whole lot of people lose their jobs in Australia, say due to the carbon tax, will you defend their right to burn, bash and loot everything in their path ? Nah, you’ll probably bring out the old “uneducated deniers” crap.
      Anyway, a lot of these rioters have been shown to have jobs, so what’s their excuse? How many jobs will be lost from all the businesses that have been burnt down ?

    • fml says:

      03:15pm | 12/08/11

      Marley i agree on your assessment of high school education, not so much on your view of tertiary education, there were riots in the UK when the tertiary fees went up, remember those?

      “Cuts to the numbers of public servants didn’t cause 17 years olds in Manchester to riot.” thats right i doubt many 17 year olds had public servant jobs, but im sure some of their parents had, once the parent loses their job and cant support their family, then the family suffers. Then when benefits are reduced they are even angrier, Rioters are not as stupid as some people think, even the most uneducated would be upset to see the government bail out the banks that have failed (with their taxes) but when these people are down and out the government conveniently overlooks them.

      I do not agree that the creation of jobs is the sole domain of private enterprise, yes a large portion of it, but it is the governments responsibility to encourage spending to boost the economy, which will keep people in jobs. By cutting spending, cutting benefits, people stop spending, the economy stagnates and people lose their jobs further prolonging the recession.

      We have to look at the initial cause of the riots. The opportunists came in afterwards, those opportunists are the cowards and need to be punished, those opportunists would not be rioting without the initial rioters. The cause will be found with them, what was the catalyst that set this whole series of events off?

      I will agree most of the assertions made about the rioters as a whole can be applied to the opportunists. I seriously doubt the opportunists would have begun the rioting, they just joined in when it was easy to doso. But the initial rioters and their cause is the one that will prevent this from happening again.

    • fml says:

      03:19pm | 12/08/11

      Jaki,

      Initially they did, Earlier this year 2000 youths marched peacefully on scotland yard asking for employment opportunities and police harrassment, no one took notice. One of the rioters when interviewed, i put the quote up yesterday reminded the reporter of this, then said, look now, we have started rioting and people are starting to take notice, and asked the reporter would you be here if it were peaceful?

    • Kika says:

      10:46am | 12/08/11

      I love how everyone has a bl**dy opinion on what happened - from an Australian eye.  We have it so lucky here!!!. You have absolutely no idea. Convicted to Paradise - that’s what my Uncle says. We were shipped out from England from the poorest scum of the lot. My ancestors were pretty much all Mile End, Hackey and Bethnal Green scumbags who looted, stole and did whatever they could to make a living. A lot weren’t and came out as free settlers. But 90% of them were from the same people and areas where the riots started today.

      Nothing has changed. England still has a class system.  Just because we came to Australia to live in a warm, sunny beautiful continent where we are all the same and believe in meritocracy and egalitarianism - we assume the whole world is just like us and should think like us!  They don’t!!! Even back in the UK - the poor are still poor and are trapped by the class system which they’ve had for thousands of years.

      The poor still feel robbed by the rich - and the problem gets worse when there is no opportunity for work. The London Olympics & Boris promised these kids jobs and gentrification of their burbs - all of which hasn’t delivered. You’ve got generations of poverty living in council estates which make Australian housing commission homes look like McMansions!!! 1-2 bedroom flats (i.e. what we would call a 1 bedroom flat!), with ‘damp’, rats, mice… I’d like to see Tracey Grimshaw exposing some of these council flats like she does our housing commission homes.

      They are going nuts because they are angry, left out, disenfranchised with their country and reckon the world owes them…

      The Cops have been focusing so much on potential terrorism. Even I, Aussie tourist girl, got stalked by Cops in London last year for being a potential terrorist. When they stopped me, searched my entire camera for suspicious photos indicating that I am wanting to blow the place up (they were mightly disappointed when they heard my Australian accent and my happy family snaps of my holiday in Singapore and Norway) but still wrote me up a ticket warning me not to be a terrorist… While they were doing that they could have been doing real police work in the council estates filtering out the drug crime… ??

    • marley says:

      11:54am | 12/08/11

      Have to agree with what you say.  Americans, Canadians and Australians have no real concept of the class stratifications in the UK, which are quite different to anything anywhere else I’ve been. 

      To be fair to the cops though, they can only do as their political masters bid.  And if the political masters say, “softly softly” on the council estates, that’s what they do.  Too much politics in policing, and in the courts. for my taste.

    • Wendy says:

      10:55am | 12/08/11

      We are looking at our future, when governments hand out, hand out after hand out and give people the notion that the government will provide, then find out that the money has run out and the next government into power has to repay the debt and in order to do this hand outs stop, times become hard then people will riot. They need the least little reason for it to start, but riot they will. This is coming our way and you’d better believe it.

    • loxy says:

      11:48am | 12/08/11

      Totally agree!!!

    • RyaN says:

      10:56am | 12/08/11

      This is due to one thing and one thing alone, governments and ridiculous academics like Dr Spock sticking their noses into places they never belonged in the first place.
      Removing corporal punishment from schools, removing mandatory post school conscription for at least two years and banning parents from disciplining their kids to the point that children have the ability to divorce their parents. The result, a total breakdown in society as you see here.

      All thanks to left wing tree hugging hippie dropkicks.

      The blame for all of this can be laid squarely at the feet of the soft and pathetic joke that makes up the left.

    • Nick42 says:

      12:34pm | 12/08/11

      RyaN as I said above to blame all on one side just makes you look stupid and ingnorant. While I agree with you about the discipline issue and the give money to poor little darlings rather than encouraging them to get a better life is a major problem created by the left. But the right has has also majorly stuffed society by pushing the all about me attitude and do not care about anybody else coupled with the mentality of massive greed. Between the both of them this has created the screwed up world we live in at the moment.

    • RyaN says:

      02:39pm | 12/08/11

      @Nick42: I dunno Nick, how did the right contribute to this welfare state other than through massive over taxation?
      In my opinion they should cut the welfare to anyone who is able bodied and if you don’t get a job in three months you have a mandatory conscription into the army.

      All welfare that is currently given to able bodied people can then be paid to them as military men where they can learn some self respect.

    • Nick42 says:

      03:01pm | 12/08/11

      Hi RyaN I said I agree with you about the welfare state but what I mean with the rights contribution to the current problem is that what I found over the last thirty to forty years there is constant push to get what you want at and do not worry about anybody else style of capitalism, which to me is an actual distortion of the capitalism philosophy. You know the old “greed is good” (I know that is from a movie but it is scarily realistic) mantra which has kept going from the 80’s and I feel this is not a good thing for society.
      Look at some of the comments above about the banks and corporations screwing up and creating the GFC and then being bailed out, why do they deserve corporate welfare and nobody else?
      I find when you mix what I said above with the welfare state mentality where you get paid for doing nothing, especially if it has being going on for several generations you get the London situation - people who expect everything but do not understand they have to actually get off their asses and work to get rather than steal it and like anything in a society eventually it will cross the over to other groups which why we are seeing a small percentage of employed people involved.
      Also apologies if I offended you with the stupid and ignorant comment as by the time I saw your comment I was getting a bit frustrated with people and overacted.

    • Mahhrat says:

      03:08pm | 12/08/11

      @Ryan,  the army isn’t idiot-day-care, it’s a highly specialised team of people trained to unquestioningly do things they don’t understand because they mightn’t see the overall objective.

      Besides, do you really want to give some of these idiots weapons training?

    • RyaN says:

      03:29pm | 12/08/11

      @Mahhrat: I want then broken and respectful, these people are like wild animals that need a good whipping into shape, the army has in the past dealt very well with conscripted participants.

    • RyaN says:

      03:39pm | 12/08/11

      @Nick42: please explain to me how it becomes the responsibility of someone who is just minding his business, working hard, providing jobs and services to his community to now look after wasters who can’t be bothered to get off their asses and do something about their lives?

      This is where the crux of the problem lies, entitlement, these little dropkicks think the world owes them something plus plus plus, hell they want all they have plus what you have and don’t want to get off their lazy asses to get it.

      This isn’t new and is illustrated quite perfectly by the following fable:

      The story of the little red hen

      One day the little red hen found a grain of wheat.
      “Who will help me plant this wheat?” she asked.
      “Not I.” said the dog, chasing his tail.
      “Not I.” said the pig, his snout deep in the trough.
      “Not I.” said the cat, stretched out in the sun.
      “Then I shall plant it myself”

      When the wheat had grown the little red hen asked; “Who will help me cut and thresh this wheat?”
      “Not I.” said the dog.
      “Not I.” said the pig.
      “Not I.” said the cat.

      So the little red hen cut down the wheat, threshed it and when she had finished asked; “Who will help me take this wheat to be milled?”
      “Not I.” said the dog, yawning sleepily.
      “Not I.” said the pig, wallowing in the mud.
      “Not I.” said the cat, preening herself.
      “In that case,” said the little red hen “I shall take it myself”

      When she returned with the flour the little red hen asked; “Who will help me bake this flour into bread?”
      “Not I.” said the dog.
      “Not I.” said the pig.
      “Not I.” said the cat.

      So the little red hen made the flour into dough, kneaded it, left it to stand and then baked it in the oven. Soon she had a large warm fresh loaf. “Who will help me eat this bread?” asked the little red hen.
      “I will!” said the dog, jumping excitedly.
      “I will!” said the pig, drooling.
      “I will!” said the cat, licking her lips.

      “No.” said the little red hen “I planted the wheat, I cut and threshed it, I took it to be milled into flour and then I made the dough and baked it into this bread. And so I will eat this bread!

      —london riots addition—
      So the little red hen sat down to eat the bread.
      The dog jumped up and bit the hen around the neck.
      The pig jumped up and grabbed the bread squealing as he made off with the loaf.
      The cat struck a match and burned the hen house down.

      The right in this story:
      The hen

      The left in this story:
      The dog
      The pig
      The cat

    • RyaN says:

      05:58pm | 12/08/11

      @Nick42: “Look at some of the comments above about the banks and corporations screwing up and creating the GFC and then being bailed out, why do they deserve corporate welfare and nobody else?”
      Oh and in answer to this question, I in no way believe that banks or companies should ever have been bailed out during the GFC. In my honest opinion I believe they should have been left to sink, these banks and companies deserved to go down.

    • Cat says:

      11:00am | 12/08/11

      well I don’t make excuses for the behaviour we’ve been seeing on our screens coming out of london, there is no justification to be had for the disgusting thefts, viollence and vandalism. I do, however think it a bit much to compare comment on welfare reform between there and here - as if the entire situation was the same when it so clearly is not. Damn right I’ll complain about a need to up the amount of certain benefits if the lack of a review and a huge rise in cost of living means we have old age pensioners who are one pitifully small unexpected expense away from not being able to eat or generally unable to meet the costs of living.

    • Kika says:

      11:17am | 12/08/11

      I agree. We are completely different countries with completely different histories and beliefs. Yes, we are essentially the same. Difference there is = class. We believe anyone can rise up and achieve whatever they want to achieve. In the UK it’s different. I mean for fk ske - you’ve got a ‘Lord’ running around trying to tell people what to do about climate change. What are we? Feudal?

    • Echo says:

      01:07pm | 12/08/11

      explains why so many old men have been busted with huge drug hauls in NSW lately

    • Johnny atheos says:

      11:12am | 12/08/11

      The self-replicating loop of failure and poor outcomes from social, immigration and welfare policies that the Left have implanted over many years, with the help of mainly Labor and Socialist governments around the Western World keeps showing the same bad results. They the Labor/Left must bare the most of responsibility for the outcomes in these countries as it’s mainly their polices.

      At a political level there is a real beauty to this welfare feed back system that the left have made for itself, by creating in some cases social failures that never existed. The Left/Labor in power is given a reason to use their social engineering skills, build bureaucracy and employ its own left leaning intelligentsia for research to justify the reason and expense.  The end result to these failed policies is a class of people no matter how dysfunctional will always vote for them.

    • Jo says:

      11:16am | 12/08/11

      There’s no excuse for these acts. Shitting in your own nest is certainly not going to solve your problems either. This was just more of the same impulsive, irrational, self indulgent violence fueled by the pack mentality that seems to overtake young men in particular with such monotonous regularity.

    • mike j says:

      11:35am | 12/08/11

      “One of his many fair-minded measures is that if you are able-bodied and offered a job but turn it down for no reason, you will be kicked off the dole for three months.”

      That sounds fair. So, if someone offers a welfare recipient minimum wage to shovel shit, she has to take it or lose her benefits? Classic capitalist exploitation. You don’t have a sewage problem in your ivory tower, do you, Penberthy?

      People with no money and no job tend to 1) turn to crime, 2) beg on the street, and/or 3) die of starvation, in that order. Which, in particular, were you hoping this ‘fair-minded’ measure would achieve?

      Don’t worry, David. They’re rhetorical questions. No-one expects you to actually follow-through with any of your articles.

      Or, it seems, publish comments that are critical of your position.

    • marley says:

      12:25pm | 12/08/11

      Okay, let me get this straight.  If a guy is offered a job to shovel shit, it’s capitalist exploitation.  So what happens in non-capitalist societies?  Or don’t they produce shit?

    • Steve says:

      12:39pm | 12/08/11

      Mike j. You have overlooked the fact that the unemployed are given cash benefits and council housing. None of the rioters have “no money” and do not face starvation.

      The rioters have less money than they would like. If you are unemployed you are required to adapt to a lesser sum of money and under no circumstances resort to crime. How much fruit and vege shops were targeted? How do you cook sneakers and electrical devices to ward off starvation?

    • James1 says:

      12:46pm | 12/08/11

      “People with no money and no job tend to 1) turn to crime, 2) beg on the street, and/or 3) die of starvation, in that order. Which, in particular, were yu hoping this ‘fair-minded’ measure would achieve?”

      Except you left out option 4 - take the shit shovelling job, earn some money, and avoid 1, 2 and 3 altogether.  I mean, if people would rather starve than do menial work, do they really deserve to eat in the first place?

    • Wayne Kerr says:

      12:48pm | 12/08/11

      @mike j

      “Classic capitalist exploitation”

      Do you honestly think people who make it to earn a reasonable income do so from day 1?

      My first job was at Maccas for bugger all money.  When I left school I joined the bank at the lowest position, batch clerk, which again paid bugger all. Almost 30 years later I’m doing pretty well after a few career changes.  You know how I did this?  Through hard work, long hours and self funded study as well as making my own opportunities. Nobody ever handed me anything, I worked hard and continue to do so.

      So taking your example of offering a welfare recipient a wage to shovel shit at minimum wage, you never know, if they take advantage of the situation and take advantage of opportunities they may well be the one hiring people to shovel shit.  They get no incentive to improve their lot in life if all they’re being paid to do is sit around on their backsides.

    • mike j says:

      06:28pm | 12/08/11

      Apologies for the late reply. I’ve lost faith in this site publishing reasonable posts, even after you append a sarcastic comment and resubmit.

      marley: No, when you mess with the free market, forcing the poor to accept minimum wages for the worst jobs in society, as opposed to assisting them in finding meaningful employment, it’s capitalist exploitation.

      So, that pretty much answers everyone else, too. But:

      Steve: I’m only talking about the policy that David thinks is ‘fair-minded’, which would involve people losing their benefits altogether.

      James1: Aren’t I not talking to you because you’re a pathetic little crybaby who runs to the mods squealing abuse when you’re demonstrably in the wrong?

      Wayne Kerr: I have no objection to asking people on welfare to make a reasonable contribution to the State (work for the dole, etc.), but that’s not the same as exposing them to exploitation from private industry.

    • Tator says:

      08:24am | 13/08/11

      Mike J,
      so turning down an entry level position of any time is ok in your mind.  Here is a question for you.  What level of employment is ok then when you are dealing with basically unskilled people??
      Basically entry level positions exist to get unskilled people into the labour force.  If every long term unemployed person had your attitude that entry level positions are just capitalist exploitation, then none of them would ever join the labour force and be productive members of society rather than being a drain on societies resources.
      Entry level positions such as shit shovellers and checkout chicks and Maccas burger flippers are just a starting point.  The number of people who stay in these entry level positions for their entire working life would be minimal as most would learn new skills and advance through the ranks either by on the job training or realising that there are better paid positions that can be easily reached via a bit of education - ie going back and finishing school.
      In todays world, unless you have qualifications, you start at the botton rung and have to work your way up.

    • marley says:

      09:15am | 13/08/11

      @MikeJ - “when you mess with the free market, forcing the poor to accept minimum wages for the worst jobs in society, as opposed to assisting them in finding meaningful employment, it’s capitalist exploitation.”

      Ok, first, why isn’t shovelling s* or it’s equivalent “meaningful employment?”  It’s a necessary job, or we’d all be wading knee deep.  And why is it exploitation in a capitalist society to have people taking the worst jobs , but not in a pre-capitalist or a socialist society?  It’s not as if the latter societies regard these jobs as more meaningful, or pay better for them.  But someone does them, all the same.

      Basically, you’re talking nonsense.  If there is an actual need for a job to be done, someone is going to have to do it.  Whether it’s shovelling s*t, or waiting tables or assembling widgets, there will always be boring, low skilled jobs that need to be done.  And those doing the jobs will paid commensurate with the skills and education needed to do the job, and with the value society places on that job.  That is in fact the free market.

      And anyway, exactly who do you propose do these jobs if not those with the lowest skill levels?  Would you rather have skilled tradies and professionals behind the shovels?

    • mike j says:

      01:58pm | 13/08/11

      Tator: “If every long term unemployed person had your attitude that entry level positions are just capitalist exploitation”

      I never said that. But thanks for calling.

      marley: meaningfulness is subjective. If menial labour was meaningful to the unemployed person in question, you wouldn’t have to force her to do it in the first place.

      And who said it’s not exploitation when it happens in a socialist society? Surely, that’s called socialist exploitation, instead.

      Guys. This isn’t even close to being debatable. Giving private industry that sort of leverage over the poorest in society is clearly unethical. Do none of you understand how the free market works?

      “those doing the jobs will paid commensurate with the skills and education needed to do the job, and with the value society places on that job”

      AND WITH THE DESIRABILITY OF THE JOB. Donating sperm/eggs/bone marrow, cleaning up radioactive contamination, and being a guinea pig for experimental drugs are all low-skilled jobs, too.

    • marley says:

      09:30am | 14/08/11

      @Mike J - you are arguing that expecting people to do low-level or unattractive jobs is exploitation, whether in a free market or socialist environment.  So, how do you get the jobs done?  You still haven’t answered that one.

      Second, you clearly think that forcing people who are on the dole to take minimum wage jobs is a distortion of the free market.  But it’s not so big a distortion as are the concepts of minimum wages and the dole in the first place.

      Third, you feel it is wrong to have people do jobs they do not find meaningful.  Well, I’ve got a news flash for you.  Most people do jobs they don’t find particularly meaningful.  But that’s not the point of the job.  Unless you’re a hunter-gatherer or a subsistence farmer in Ethiopia, you are going to want things that other people mine, grow or manufacture. The point of the job is to provide you with the wherewithal to buy those things you need or want - housing, food, and, in the 21st century, a plasma TV and a blackberry.  The job is not primarily there to give you self-fulfillment, it’s there to give you a wage.  As you get better qualified, you may get to the “meaningful” stage - but at the entry level, settle for the satisfaction of wages and paying your bills.

      Finally, you say that it is exploitation to expect a person on benefits to take a low level job.  I say it’s exploitation for a person to expect to have society provided him or her with an income and then refuse to contribute to that society by working, if he or she is able to do so.

    • mike j says:

      12:26pm | 14/08/11

      “you are arguing that expecting people to do low-level or unattractive jobs is exploitation”

      No, I’m not, marley. And, having already explained this, I’m finding your deliberate obtuseness a little irritating.

      “So, how do you get the jobs done? You still haven’t answered that one.”

      You provide adequate remuneration (above welfare levels) to encourage people to accept the job. It’s not rocket surgery. In fact, I’M JUST DESCRIBING THE EXISTING EMPLOYMENT MARKET.

      “But it’s not so big a distortion as are the concepts of minimum wages and the dole in the first place.”

      Very true, and the best point you have made thus far. However, these are the ethical considerations of a humane society. The policy in question is the opposite.

      Your third point isn’t a news flash to me. I’m not proposing that everyone should get to be a fashion model or a movie star. In this context, and to stem your increasingly irrelevant diversions from my OP, let’s just take my definition of ‘meaningful employment’ to be ‘a job one would willingly accept’.

      I agree with your last, but the logistics of our welfare system mean that people can abuse it. And I have my own ideas about how to fix this, but that’s another discussion. Cheers.

    • marley says:

      04:05pm | 14/08/11

      Well, Mike J - you’re shifting your argument.  You now seem to be saying that it’s not, after all, exploitation to make people take these minimum wage jobs as long as they make more money than on welfare.

      I would only say that, if minimum wage isn’t above welfare rates, that’s a problem all on its own.  I’ve been assuming the jobs do pay minimum wage that is over the welfare rate.  And that to my mind ends discussion of exploitation.

    • Cornelius says:

      11:44am | 12/08/11

      Beware the beast man…

    • loxy says:

      11:47am | 12/08/11

      I have been absolutely dismayed at how many articles I have read, including ones in papers I usually respect (The Australian), blaming everyone but the rioters for their own behaviour. Their behaviour is nothing short of disgusting and they alone should feel the full wrath of the law!

      Well done David – this is the first sensible article on the London rioters I have seen!

    • Daiden says:

      12:04pm | 12/08/11

      Dear David,

      On this issue I wholeheartedly disagree. The “view” that is held is so important, and it is what will transform, or repress the possibility for real and lasting change that benefits. We cannot afford to get this wrong.

      Any argument that comes from a moral point of view is flawed in this case. Whilst I find the events of the last week heartbreaking, I also feel that this would not happen if those perpetrators felt included, and connected to society. A failure to address this issue at the root only serves to sow the seed for it to happen again. More rules, laws, stricter punishments designed to protect do not encourage growth and a move towards an enlightened society. We want a fully responsible society and that can only come with full maturity.

      It may be time to look at the values that drive the levels of consumerism that are out of control. Marketing that promotes desire as a means to happiness and contentment. For those who there is little chance of achieving (relative) “success”, there will only be the seed for dis-alienation.  Actually, the methods of marketing that prey on the ignorance of the consumer are very connected to the unhappiness that is suffered by those who feel so dis empowered. Yet it too is simply a manifestation of an ignorant society with an underlying agenda rooted in greed.

      The moral stance in this instance can only serve to create separations and denial of a deeper level of responsibility for the cause. A compassionate stance is the only solution that will do away with the divisions and it is the only way to embrace the collective responsibility that will bring genuine change. It serves to benefit all that live within our society.

      Kindly,

    • Fromage67 says:

      01:52pm | 12/08/11

      Great Call

    • Loxy says:

      02:58pm | 12/08/11

      If it was your house or shop burned down or your child who was killed would you still be calling for a compassionate response?

    • Daiden says:

      04:42pm | 12/08/11

      [Loxy says:
        If it was your house or shop burned down or your child who was killed would you still be calling for a compassionate response?]

      Dear Loxy, What fruit comes from the seed of anger, impatience, ignorance, bitterness or resent? Actually the idea we own things is simply a convention that is created to maintain the concept of possession. Impermanence is real, we never own any thing; old age sickness and death will come for everyone. Compassion balanced with wisdom is the only way we will create the society that we all want.

    • LC says:

      07:30pm | 12/08/11

      They do not need iPhones. They do not need the latest in fashion. They don’t need brand new watches and jewelry, they don’t need cars unless they live in the country, they don’t need to see the latest fad movie/album/videogame the moment it comes out. They don’t need anything other than food, drink, basic clothing shelter, an education, and perhaps parents who aren’t afraid to say “NO!” as opposed to buying their kids whatever they want whenever they want it, teach their kids that in order to get these luxury items, they need to work hard at school and in the work force and actually discipline them when necessary; like grounding them and thoroughly enforcing it, for example.

      It’s called living within your means, something which if a lot more people (and governments) did, the GFC and the current GFC2 would never have happened.

      You’d be whistling a different tune if it was you or a family member’s life or livelihood destroyed because of these stupid rioters. Yep, it’s never the criminal’s fault, it’s society’s fault…unless it affects you personally. Classic socialist attitude.

      The riots aren’t being caused due to welfare or lack thereof, they are being caused by kids who don’t know rules and boundaries, hard work and always get their way when they want it. But thankfully, Cameron’s speech of mandatory prison terms for the rioters/looters sounds promising. If they are jailed, even for 2-3 months, it’ll show them they cannot do whatever they like and what’ll happens if they do step over the line, and they’ll be better people for it.

    • marley says:

      08:46am | 13/08/11

      @Daiden - “Compassion balanced with wisdom is the only way we will create the society that we all want.”

      Sorry, Daiden, but you are assuming that this is indeed the kind of society “we” all want.  I didn’t see much compassion or wisdom amongst the rioters.  I doubt that’s the society they want at all.

    • PTom says:

      12:09pm | 12/08/11

      David,

      Wow you say give the new Tory government slack because they are new. They have been in for a year, yet we did not see any slack by the media given to new governments here.

      This has been simmering in the UK for a while. Even in Tunsia things had been happen for a while before the uprising. It just that social media allows like minded to hook up in greater numbers.
      Before there where student riots about cuts, people protesting about mistreat by Police and riots against discrimination.

      Jasper, is right and there is more then just asking low income to pay more, welfare cuts or is it just kids being raised wrong. When the authority lacks creditability and are seen as more and more corrupt and greedy, people start to act in that manner and when the opportunity arises people take what they thinks is rightfully theirs.

      Just like here when people are told the government is illegitimate and the constant call for election, we get nut jobs standing up calling for arms to be taking up against the government.

    • Steve says:

      01:39pm | 12/08/11

      PTom. The extended honeymoon period that the media gave K Rudd from 2007 - 2009 ultimately , I believe , led to his demise. The complete love affair that the Canberra press gallery had for K Rudd caused him to believe that he could spin his way out of anything.

      Contrast that with the obsessive focus on the present opposition. ALP supporters and the media use the opposition as an excuse for ALP failures. “Oh sure we are crap in the ALP but things would be worse under Abbott”

    • fml says:

      01:48pm | 12/08/11

      Wow, someone speaking sense!

      Be prepared for the onslaught.

    • Richard Perin says:

      12:19pm | 12/08/11

      Almost all of the worlds problems could be solved by removing from ourselves the belief that we are in someway better than others. And when I am finally made ruler of this universe, I will cull those who think like this.

      In jest though, a more useful word than blame is responsibility. Why do you English speaking people always confuse your words and meanings. Must be the Irish infulence…..smile

    • Anna C says:

      12:42pm | 12/08/11

      I think that these riots prove that nothing much has changed in England since the times when they were exporting their criminals to Australia.  May be the sad truth is that there will always be a dysfunctional element in the working class i.e. ‘the dregs of our society’ and that apart from the fact that countries like ours now feed, clothe and house them, nothing much has changed in over 200 years. There’s that old saying “You can’t help people who won’t help themselves.”

    • JohnB says:

      01:03pm | 12/08/11

      “countries like ours now feed, clothe and house them,”.......

      Well there’s the problem. Instead of dwindling in numbers, they instead thrive. In Australia the votes are so high form welfare dependents we’ve ended with the worst government in history. How will it unfold if their vote is secured in the weight of welfare numbers?

      I’m not sure if I filled in the census correctly. Where it asked for how many dependents I had, I wrote about 5 or 6 million.

    • James1 says:

      01:03pm | 12/08/11

      I don’t agree that most of them are working class.  The working class works - many of these rioters seem to be from Marx’s lumpenproletariat, which as Penbo notes, Marx had little sympathy for.  Indeed, Marx considered them to be ahistorical, and only useful insofar as they were uneducated and easily influenced, and could provide the cannon fodder for the worker’s revolution.

    • Jo says:

      01:29pm | 12/08/11

      The upper classes were involved in the riots as well and they’re certainly not immune from immorality.

    • MarkS says:

      01:30pm | 12/08/11

      Dysfunctional Non working Welfare class. There is nothing dysfunctional about the working class, they work!

    • Anna C says:

      02:44pm | 12/08/11

      I think you guys are splitting hairs here. A lot of the people we saw rioting are the children and grandchildren of working class people. Yes I get that they are not working but living on welfare so you don’t want to classify them them as working class but that does not take away from the fact that they are the lowest rung on the class system ladder i.e. they are the dysfunctional underclass.

      I think you guys are being tad pedantic here and not seeing the forest for the trees.

    • margaret says:

      01:10pm | 12/08/11

      I was raised in a VERY poor household but , never in a million years would it have occurred to me to steal or act disrespectfully ; to run riot was not even on my radar .......

      In excusing the inexcusable , another crime is being perpetrated .......for God’s sake , when are the bleeding hearts going to stop their nauseating nonsense .....the only thing that will make this ” vermin ” learn , is to make them accountable ...........and PLEASE DO throw their parents into the equation as well ......I only hope that someone , somewhere in Australia will also look , learn and take preventative measures , before we are facing the same consequences .....

    • fml says:

      01:44pm | 12/08/11

      I know right, the way the politicians are acting is bollox.

    • Babs says:

      01:12pm | 12/08/11

      Isn’t it just blokes behaving badly? I lived in London 40 years ago during the Clockwork Orange era.  I found myself in the midst of a skinhead assault in the underground one night, and was lucky not to either witness some very ugly random violence or be attacked myself.  We were all saved by the arrival of a train which dispersed the tension and allowed the station-mster to get help. Those boys would be fathers by now I guess.  There has always been gang violence (a la Romeo & Juliet). Football is a kind of civilised version of it and war a much grander scale version of the same thing. Mostly it’s not ‘about’ anything really, just an expression of some masculine urge to violence that women don’t really understand. Now someone will point out a few girls were involved, which doesn’t really disturb my premise.

    • Bev says:

      02:48pm | 12/08/11

      Didn’t you forget something? There may not be a large number of women in the riots but London to a brick on much of the stolen property winds up in their girlfriends hands and I don’t believe they will ship it back or dob in their boyfriends. You also forgot to mention the upward trend in female crime (much of it violent) or the drunken brawling out of control laddetts who infect the streets on Friday and Saturday night.  Not to mention the hordes of welfare single mums raising a lot of these armies of ferals.

      Just a girly slip of the mind then?

    • Babs says:

      04:01pm | 12/08/11

      yawn - all hearsay and anecdote and supposition - evidence please

    • Bev says:

      06:39pm | 12/08/11

      Babs says:04:01pm | 12/08/11

      yawn - all hearsay and anecdote and supposition - evidence please

      Just the answer I would expect from a feminist.  Spout feminism 101 if anybody disputes it attack the messenger, ignore it, throw a hissy fit or disappear.  Never defend your argument. Your feminists are so predictable.

    • marley says:

      08:07am | 13/08/11

      So, it’s all the welfare single mums raising armies of ferals.  And where are the dads of all those ferals?  Are they paying support for the kids they’ve brought into the world?  Are they manning up and doing the right thing by their offspring?  Or are they just of impregnating another future welfare mom?

    • JohnB says:

      01:12pm | 12/08/11

      A generation raised without fathers. Really, is any of this a surprise?

    • Rubens camejo says:

      02:27pm | 12/08/11

      Not to me

    • Sleve says:

      01:19pm | 12/08/11

      Disgraceful?  Yes.  Blame the rioters?  In part, of course.

      But…your intergenerational blindness is astounding.  All of the riots you mentioned involved young people looting.  But, it seems not all looters are created equal.  To paraphrase, “in my day we were protesting something.”  This started - like all the riots you cite - as a protest.  Once out of control a riot is a riot is a riot - whether in 1958, 1985 or 2011.

      Sure, times have changed, but it seems reminiscence will always be romanticised.  Blame the yoof, I say!

    • Kimota says:

      01:44pm | 12/08/11

      Everything has a cause. Everything has an effect. Wanting to discuss the potential causes - societal or otherwise - does NOT equal making excuses for rioters and is the only smart response in a society that prefers to prevent the same happening again instead of merely cracking down on it when it does.

      Rioting doesn’t happen in a vacuum. Rioters aren’t born preprogrammed to go on the rampage on a particular date, categorised under a vague catch-all of ‘sick criminality’. Something - or more likely a number of things - motivates and creates that behaviour. That’s not an excuse, but a lesson. Understanding the various factors - both socio-economic on the left and the politics of deterrence/punishment on the right - are vastly important and should not be dismissed or underestimated in preventing a repeat.

    • MarkS says:

      02:07pm | 12/08/11

      Sometimes shit just happens. But not in this case, this has reasons. Even if I do not understand them.

    • eddie says:

      01:59pm | 12/08/11

      Have the commentators, perched high up their in offices, come to a consensus on ‘why?’ yet. Call me when they do, I can hardly be bothered wading through another 500 or so grandstanding pieces, shaking out every theory they have on the matter.

    • JohnB says:

      02:25pm | 12/08/11

      I told you eddie. It’s the rising of the fatherless generation.

      I also told you it’s welfare entitlement.

      Either way, those responsible, the socialists, will justify a new way to give more money to create more problems.

      I’m not sure if I filled in the census correctly. Where it asked for how many dependents I had, I wrote about 5 or 6 million.

    • Whitehall $140 Monopoly Dollars Maroon says:

      02:15pm | 12/08/11

      Sydney should stage the 2012 Olympics instead of London.
      Where is the Republic of Australia with a new flag, a new anthem and a new start? Nobody can look up to the “old country” now.
      The mother country is the planet of the apes.Its just another middle east civil war country where the ” Old enemy” is at war with “The Old Dart”!
      The new War Of The Roses is between the Pommie Bastards and the Toff Chooms or Whigs versus Fabians!. Its a battle to decide in Britain who is in charge of the soap in the “Whore House of Europe”  !

    • David Wheaton says:

      02:19pm | 12/08/11

      Since Charles Darwin’s book Origin of the Species.  We have been taught we are just evolved animals and evolution is all about survival of the fittest with death, disease and mass extinctions why such a shock when we see riots by some of the less evolved animals (homo sapiens) who have not evolved as much as others homo sapiens as evolution is about blind chance and meaninglessness which leads to hopelessness

    • Kimota says:

      03:00pm | 12/08/11

      oh, where to begin!

    • Tojo says:

      05:05pm | 12/08/11

      Um, Darwin’s book is “On the Origin of Species” (or “On the Origin of Species by Means of Natural Selection, or the Preservation of Favoured Races in the Struggle for Life” if you want to be really accurate).  When misrepresenting Darwinism, it’d be a start to get the source correct.

    • Whitehall ( Maroon) $140 Monopoly says:

      02:20pm | 12/08/11

      The English are following the old Irish proverb
      “If you meet a good pommie, shoot it before it goes bad.”
      And
      “Ashes to Ashes ! Dust to Dust! If Nick Clegg doesn’t pursue you, then David Cameron must”
      In Monopoly as in real life, Whitehall is worth 140 dollars and it is maroon!

    • Steve says:

      03:00pm | 12/08/11

      My suggestion is for the Government to borrow more money. Their present debt level is not a concern because there are at least 3 countries with higher debt levels.

      If companies and workers had their taxes increased and all of the money raised given to the unemployed then they might not riot again.

      Also there is no mention in the UK bill of rights as to the right to new clothees, shoes and electronic devices. Everyone should have a right to new stuff not just workers.

    • Rick Kane says:

      03:06pm | 12/08/11

      Mr Penberthy, what an incredibly deeply penetrating analysis.  I mean, like, real deep.

      It takes genius to reduce god knows how many people caught up in the UK riots thus:  “Some of the dumbest and most disengaged people on the face of the earth”.

      Later on you drops a Marx reference (of all social commentators you picked Marx, that’s inspired and wicked man) to demonstrate that you aint one of the dumbest and that you’re across both wings of ideological framing. Wow. You sure are the go to guy for considered and empathetic study of sociological contexts and the human condition.

      I will have to totally ignore your razor sharp observation demeaning hundreds (maybe thousands) of people as the ‘dumbest’ because I am more intrigued with asking you what these people are ‘disengaged’ from and how you know it.

    • Hugo says:

      03:40pm | 12/08/11

      Yup. I noticed this comment:

      “The first notable feature of Mr Jasper’s comments is that they afford a remarkably high level of current affairs knowledge to some of the dumbest and most disengaged people on the face of the earth.”

      Given that the rioters were on the news last night saying “This is our banker’s bonus” it looks like their current affairs knowledge is pretty decent. 

      When you start calling thousands of people idiots in articles which highlight your own ignorance, it’s not a good look.

      Actually scratch that….*regardless* of how accurate superior self image is/is not, calling thousands of people idiots is not a good look.

    • marley says:

      08:25am | 14/08/11

      @Hugo - sorry, but I fail to see how stealing a plasma TV from some poor sod trying to make a living selling electronics gives these thugs a moral stance one millimetre higher than the bankers.  And I personally would say that anyone who loots a store in full sight of CCTV cameras and then post spictures of himself with the loot on facebook fully qualifies as being amongst the dumbest people on earth.

    • Tchom says:

      03:31pm | 12/08/11

      I find these comments interesting. It kind of makes the riots make more sense. I’ve been trying to work out why these kids had such little respect for the community where they could commit these crime, where a lot of commenters seem to be taking a lack of respect for the community as a given, and that these kids are just bad eggs who have stopped playing by the rules. Is this just where cultural values are now?

    • stephen says:

      10:18pm | 12/08/11

      It’s not so much respect, but opportunity.
      The looters were not so angry or predetermined to cause upset ; rather, they were bored, a little on drugs and it is notable that so, many whilst robbing, did not bother hiding their faces whilst even in front of a camera.
      Reverse voyeurism ?
      Probably.
      This is their 15 minutes of fame.
      The authorities, however, will have to sort out those who were only thieves, from many who took advantage from carnage, for real crime.

    • No excuses accepted says:

      03:40pm | 12/08/11

      Londons riots by the deadbeats and lazy bludgers is a discrace for socialism and it’s supporters.Trash that have never worked a day in their lives and expect the tax payer to fund their lazy lifestyle and subsidide their accommodation rioted to get back their free money and have some fun.This garbage mob must be jailed and/or heavily fined as an example.Full restitution must also be paid back by these criminals even if they have to labour for the rest of their miserable lives to do so.

    • engineer says:

      03:48pm | 12/08/11

      I grew up about as poor as people get in Australia, and much of my youth was in the western suburbs of sydney.

      The problem as I see it is socialists poison society. They dumb down education and lead people into a culture of government subsidy of their lives. This suits socialist politicians because they can count on votes as long as they lay on the pork. In time we (and Britain) develope whole social security enclaves where several generations have not worked and the community feels detached from wider society. They feel entitled to handouts and have no respect for anything or anyone. Material goods are just there to be taken, and people to be used.

      To address this we need a concerned and protracted effort to break the cycle and the societies down and reintegrate them into the wider community. It starts with education and a social security system with mutual obligations. Unfortunately all we get is broad based “dole bludger bashing” from our politicians, most recently with regards the diability pension. Most people on SS are decent honest and just need a hand. We should be targeting the systematic dependants, those who deliberately make a career out of it, and of course those individuals who cheat the system. That’s hard, expensive and doesn’t cut through with a disengaged electorate like a broad based attack.

      In the interim real punishment needs to be metered out, and the victims put first. It’s easy to talk about wishy washy rehabilitation when it isn’t your home, child or spouse who has been violated. Rehab should be a secondary consideration to protecting the community and compensating the victim through the labour of the perpetrator.

      If you put no price on something it loses any real sense of value. Beatie’s hair brained ambulance system is a recent and obvious example of this.

      Socialist objectives are better achieved by conservative methods.

    • Dave says:

      03:49pm | 12/08/11

      Sadly we will always have professional bludgers,but if they will do nothing to help themselves,then we should return this to them and give them nothing.

    • Shiralee says:

      04:19pm | 12/08/11

      Hello everyone wake up to yourselves. The riots have nothing to do with a guy getting shot, politics or the wealfare system. Its called teaching you children right and wrong. I was poor and I dont go around breking window, stealing etc. Why because I was taught right and wrong and respect.

    • John A Neve says:

      08:55pm | 12/08/11

      Respect for who or what Shiralee?
      Goverments who don’t really respresent the people.
      A church that is so far from God as to be funny.
      A law that does what the pollies tell it.
      Or, maybe, a society that lives on handouts?

      Believe me Shiralee, I respect none of them and sooner or a little later the shit will hit the fan.

    • marley says:

      07:05am | 13/08/11

      @JohnNeve - respect for your fellow man. Respect for his right to walk the streets without being bashed for a stupid cellphone.  Respect for his right to earn a living running a small business and not seeing it totally destroyed for your amusement.  Respect for his right to have a home that isn’t going to be firebombed.  Respect for his right not to be deliberately run down by thugs in a car. 

      I don’t care whether your respect the government, the banking system, or the church.  I don’t have much respect for them myself.  But it would never occur to me that smashing windows, stealing property or assaulting people was a suitable response to the failing of some of our institutions.

    • Ken Wood says:

      05:48pm | 12/08/11

      The difference between these guys and the corporations of the world is these guys were’nt devious. It doesn’t happen here, elsewhere or prior in England. Something is wrong with the system that allows people to get this angry and what they are angry about, is the inequality in a system that allows CEOs to take home millions while some people can’t get a job. The right wing in Australia always gets angry everytime there are tax cuts for the poor, well, what you are looking at in England is the future of Australia’s right wing policies.

    • The Old Wise Man says:

      07:01pm | 12/08/11

      At the risk of offending the enormous proportions of atheist gadflies reading your articles; God bless you Mr Penberthy. Your words of wisdom are greatly appreciated.

    • TheRaptured says:

      07:46pm | 12/08/11

      David Penberthy

      Why are you being so blind in your article and not blaming the bankers for any of this rioting in the UK. These criminals protected by the global bankers who created this problem in the first place have not been brought to justice for their criminal behaviour. So the easiest excuse is to blame the people who have been put in and austerity prison. What we are seeing is a prison break by the victims, while the real criminals are not getting any of the blame. Central banks printing money out of nothing, fuelling inflation and causing massive inflation. I guess your article is the result of your media gods (globalist media owners), who you work for,  who own the real truth that cannot be exposed to the public, in case the public awake to really what is going on. I see you as just another organ of the globalist owned media.

      I had my awakening about a year ago, and cannot ever believe the lies from now on that the media report with the cut and paste reporters.

      Seem harsh but this is true!

    • Dodge says:

      08:07pm | 12/08/11

      Why are people so keen to just write other people off? Where’s the sense of community? What’s with the overriding sense of nihilism? Anyway. There’s been unrest and striking in the UK for months… It was just the Kids’ turn to have a crack. Banging on about breeding people to rely on the state is just kooky conservative dogma. Why conservatives keep talking about humans being lazy as their natural state is beyond me, like humanity got this far with the default state being a lazy anarchist. Get real elitists.

      This nonsense right wing popularist article brought all the people out that folks laugh about when they leave the room. LOL @ dropping marxism in for effect.

    • John Rees says:

      11:32pm | 12/08/11

      You people are verbose.
      Cannot you limit comments to a short sentance?

    • Greg says:

      12:56am | 13/08/11

      Of course left wingers are so breathtakingly stupid that people cannot suppress their laughter until they leave the room, so we laugh right into their faces.

      I suppose this is why they have all these “self-esteem"issues and go about being outraged about everything.

      And it’s not humans that are lazy, it is left wingers, with their parasitic entitlement mentality, always looking to live off productive people.

    • Soos says:

      10:33pm | 12/08/11

      @ nihonin says:12:07pm | 12/08/11
      ...what about women being able to have babies to multiple fathers…
      ..rarely a mention of the male who impregnates multiple women, moving on to the next one as soon as possible, quite often being on the dole himself, unable/unwilling to help with the upbringing of any of them…?

    • Mr. Grey says:

      11:38pm | 12/08/11

      The FORMER Greater London COUNCIL police adviser Lee
      Jasper is a socialist who egotistically signs his
      name as “The General” and calls himself a race
      adviser. He has proven to be more than a fraud.
      Being paid £127K-a-year resigned in disgrace after
      giving £100,000 of public money to an organisation
      run by a woman he called his gorgeous wonderful sexy
      Kazzi who in a letter he wrote to her, said he
      wanted to “honey glaze.” her among other things.
      This man has proven to be a bare-faced liar wrongly claiming he was absolved of cronyism when large amounts of money vanished without visible effect into various “community organisations” run by his friends and business associates. He has NO credibility. Left wing do-gooders are always
      trying to lie to cover up the reality.  The Middle
      Eastern Muslim community who were there protecting
      their stores have no problem saying it was
      predominantly blacks. So why is the media so scared
      to say it or print it. This was looked at by the
      rioters as the most culturally appropriate way they
      know to deal with things but that is not the way of
      their adopted country and their adopted country
      should not be forced into a situation where its
      standards a diluted because of the lack of proper
      integration. The reality here is the laws of
      multiculturalism have a lot to do with the problem.
      Specially the part that tell immigrants to come to a
      country and go on living as if you were in the
      failed country they just left. Instead of
      encouraging integration this produces lots of little
      nations within a nation who don’t fit in with each
      other ending up with them disrespecting and warring
      with each other. Instead of Multiculturalism being a
      nation building tool it has proven to be a dismal
      failure that has become as divisive as any other
      policy before it. A policy that causes the one thing
      it was thought to solve, Racism. Because of its
      divisiveness even second and third generation
      children are becoming alienated in the society
      causing them to turn to crime and rely on government
      handouts. This is a law that needs to be repealed in
      Australia as soon as possible. Don’t mistake this
      for an anti immigration rant its not. We can give
      our arriving immigrants a better chance of a decent
      good life and successful integration without it.
      What is wrong with saying come to our country and
      work hard to integrate into our society. We should
      expect nothing less. - “We need a clearer code of
      values and responsibilities of which we live.” - 
      David Cameron.

    • John says:

      10:55am | 13/08/11

      African crime problem was pretty self-evident in London before the these race riots. It’s just the red socialist political and media establishment who have a socialist agenda to flood europe with the entire third world in order to destroy white society and decimate their nations for the socialist red cause have been covering up, turning a blind eye and playing down the effects of immigrant criminality. One finds this pretty much in every western nation, socialists seem to rule the entire west, and they have marked whites, christianity and their nations for destruction. What gets me why do whites allow socialists to rule their media? Politicians? and their country’s? Can’t they see they have been marked for destruction? I’m amazed how naive, uneducated the majority of white Europeans are. They’re nations have been decimated by mass immigration, mass crime increase’s and still there is no political sway from these destruction red socialist policy’s. It’s seem like they have lost the talent of for site. The future is looking grim.

    • Bleh says:

      11:02am | 13/08/11

      What the held has happened I’m actually agreeing with this article!! Remove the funding for the lazy and get them to work.

      The riots were the most disgusting thing I have ever seen it was a complete embarrasement to the UK.

    • Den says:

      11:21am | 13/08/11

      Having been born in Edmonton, living in Tottenham as a boy, I watched things change, I watched youths who didnt want to work, didnt want to conform. My mates were all colours all races, and we were mates!  I had good role models in my parents who got up at four in the morning to do crap jobs, but I took that with me. I came to Oz and was a young policeman earning $80 a week! I took out a loan, and worked a secret part time job, so i could have a car. What I am saying is that I knew from day one the difference between right and wrong, not interested in your left vs right rants. The question is right or wrong? These people know the difference and chose to ignore it.  If they havn’t got jobs, maybe the poor sod who had his shop burnt may have offered them one!  The Police need to be unshackled from the government, and allowed to do what they are paid for, Protect!  If they are on welfare, then fine, nick them, and make them go back to the very same areas they trashed and burnt and be made to do community service alongside the poor buggers who lost everything.  This matter has been hijacked for all sorts or reasons, the old bash a pom routine, the ignorant oz routine, even bad marriages, (been there too, but bounced back).
      The discussion is about Jasper and his ideas folks.  What right have we to pass judgement I suppose when we cant stay on track in reference to the article.  The simple argument is these people know right from wrong, crossed the line, and now must pay for it.  Not a socialist argument, nor a right wing philsophy, just a fact of truth.

    • Mr, Grey says:

      01:08am | 14/08/11

      You say it’s just a matter of right from wrong and while I don’t disagree the police should be unshackled a little to be able to handle these sorts of problems I think you miss the reason the rioters don’t care if they are doing wrong. See my post 3 above. If you are not integrated into a society you have no national pride and don’t care about how you treat that society. Right from wrong is too simple a way to describe what happened in England. Of course it is wrong but when you look at the tapes and the photo’s you cannot deny it is a ethnic problem that needs to be addressed for it not to reoccur.

    • Toad says:

      01:12pm | 13/08/11

      Yes .... it didn’t take long for the OUR ABC to locate one of the Usual suspects.
      Who is Lee Jasper? Well he is a former mouthpiece of the well-and-truly former London mayor Ken Livingstone on matters racial.
      He spouted on for a good three minutes without Ms Sales interrupting his stream of consciousness (it was a stream of something anyway) once.
      The “protests” were the fault of the financial markets, News of the World phone hacking, austerity measures, a feeling of democratic disenfranchisement and the loss of opportunities for a fully funded university education. This last one made me chortle – most of these yoofs would struggle to read “De Cat in De Hat” aloud, much less catch a bus to Uni. 
      Well, my super fund has taken a direct hit this week and is listing to starboard. I feel disenfranchised but what to do? I know …. I am off down to kick in Gerry Harvey’s window and nick a 60” surround sound plasma and I might torch a bus on the way home for good measure.
      I could ask why MY ABC is giving voice to a bloke who used to be a paid stirrer for a disgraced London mayor
      I would suggest that much of the “protesting” is a direct result of Mr Jasper and his fellow travellers fomenting a victim mentality among dese yoofs.

    • gill says:

      08:13am | 14/08/11

      The riots were inexcusable.
      The thugs and looters must take resonsibility for their actions, people like Lee Jasper with their lame excuses, are supporting this criminal behavior .
      People are fed up with the garbage spewing out of the mouths of lunatic activists.

    • Den says:

      05:09pm | 14/08/11

      @ Mr Grey, the main problem is, “I have a right to steal as I am disadvantaged”.  What utter rubbish!  the world is full of people who are disadvantaged for one reason or another. Trying to neatly pocket it into one of not belonging is wrong, when you look at other youths in the same place, and with the same problems, who didn’t find the need to steal or riot.  It is not of racial problem, it is a generic problem of youth choosing to be a “nothing”. We have these “nothings” here too. Nothings are those that choose to rely on dole rather than work. Nothing is good enough for them, don’t want to work for nothing, those that choose to use welfare needed by others, but consider it their right to not work. When asked what are you doing, will reply “nothing”. Our small town had these nothings, all complaining there was nothing to do, nothing in the way of jobs, the local paper found 142 jobs in our town, but the nothings again decided to do nothing. Bit hard getting up to go to work for less than the dole, dont talk about pride, they cannot even spell it.  No I believe that it is one of right and wrong, and the sooner the nothings learn the difference they may become something!

    • Jackie says:

      04:36pm | 16/08/11

      How would you be if: you lived in poverty, had no hope for the future, no employment prospects and no family support? For millions of people around the world their existence is just about survival.

    • John says:

      11:53am | 17/08/11

      Wow, if i wanted to read biased “journalism” I would read Andrew Bolt in the Herald Sun!

    • Martial470 says:

      03:26pm | 18/08/11

      One basic rule…find out where the work is and go there.
      Get a job, and pay your bills.
      The Green meme do-gooders say that you are misunderstood, and disadvantaged.
      Yes, this is often true, but YOU have a choice to stay that way or move on.
      The difficulty is that means leaving behind your whole social group, and usually your family. Not many people can do this.

    • James says:

      04:45pm | 18/08/11

      Do you have anything to say to bankers who sell “toxic waste” to their clients as AAA grade investments, bet against that “toxic waste” behind their clients backs, crash the world economy and then pay themselves bonuses?

    • Dennis says:

      12:21pm | 26/08/11

      Mr Jasper seems to have got it more right than wrong. The stupidity of the reporter that the rioters were not protesting (protexting) because they hadn’t read the daily telegraph is elitist in the extreme and comes possibly from a man who sits next to similar faceless non talking paper wavers on the local commuter. He/she seems to have even less clue about the mindset of the inequality that these guys see every day. Further what he hasn’t assumed is that most of these guys/gals more likely spend more time on their computers, -yes playing games and twittering etc- but also being very aware of at least the major headlines that come up on Google every time it opens rather than burying their heads in a tree. In the last war a lot of young people signed up to go to war and though not having the advantage of being informed either by TV or the Internet were more than willing to fight against similar elitist corruption in the only way they knew how (thankfully). Maybe by helping to win that war they opened up another can of worms that can only fester in times of peace?  Lets not be naïve these protesters, (hooligans and looters if you prefer) talk, listen and know full well where the problems of this country lay and are now the extreme product of that frustration. The liars the cheats the money grabbers and those delusional enough to think they are the elite of the establishment are the predominant cause and they have no excuse for their greed nor for their expectation that life will go on as normal while they raid the assets of this once proud country unchecked and unpunished.

    • Dennis says:

      02:22pm | 27/08/11

      Den. You have some valid points but they all come from a very one eyed perspective. Is it only the unemployed youth and the nothings as you call them who are lying and stealing. Wasn’t there a lot of nothings that were prepared to fight to save your skin and give you a future. Take a look at the aboriginals here in Australia they never actually worked in our sense but they provided for their families often lived in harsh conditions used only bio-degradeable materials and had a very strong tribal law which we over years have taken away. They weren’t bludgers then but they are often considered to be that now because we have this mindset that every one should work predominately for someone else. If I were younger I would say keep your welfare and I would live off the land but the so called Elite have locked it all up and if I stole a rabbit I would either be hanged or sent over here. This form of government made these rules and you can’t be independant and opt out. It is even in their interest to have the unemployed it helps keep inflation down and often interest rates And maybe it even makes them feel good for providing a Nanny State. Look a bit higher in this class society and you will see who the real hangers on are. Seriously the pre-selection for a politician to any major parties almost guarantees that your likey get someone with an extreme self interest or destined to be corrupt, And if you want to see welfare just look at the perks they have awarded themselves without any consultation from us. That cost alone makes the welfare these nothings get pale into insignificance and will frighten you. The Nanny State functions very well at this level but some people are so indoctrinated into believing that those in power can do no wrong they unjustly point the finger elsewhere.

 

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They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

They must pay for one’s bitter disappointments

A private school girl’s family is sueing her elite, extremely expensive private school for not… Read more

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