In a recent article about balanced reporting, the former director of the Australia Institute Clive Hamilton noted that to give equal weighting that reflected the opinion of those who accept climate change as human induced and a cross section of sceptics would be 39:1.

Greg Combet wants common sense in the climate debate… has it been lacking until now? Pic: Ray Strange

As someone who spends a lot of time on climate debates, I would say that this is kind of generous to sceptics – the ratio would be more like 100:1.

How do I come up with this figure? Recently Stephan Lewandowsky, a Winthrop Professor at the University of Western Australia, analysed the number of peer-reviewed articles published by scientists at the UNSW’s Climate Change Research Centre versus those who argue against anthropogenic global warming. The results since 2007? Zero to the sceptics and 110 peer-reviewed to the research centre. This is only one research centre of hundreds so maybe even 100:1 is generous. So why does the public still remain confused about the reality of climate change?

There are undoubtedly many reasons but key amongst them is the way politicians seem to be obsessed with the five-second quote they believe makes ‘good copy’ for television.

The examples are almost countless.

We can begin by looking at how Greg Combet, the new Minister for Climate Change, has begun approaching his portfolio. Mr Combet said this week it was time to bring ‘common sense’ to the debate. I am not sure what this means but he is obviously indicating that until now common sense has been missing from discussions. I hope Professor Tim Flannery gets the memo from Mr Combet explaining to him that it’s time for common sense.

Another example is the way both the Government and Opposition deal with refugees. The statements focus either on people smugglers being responsible (and the lowest form of life) or that this is somehow a lifestyle choice for the millions of displaced by war and famine. There seems to be little or no attempt to discuss the many push factors that drive people towards such a treacherous and dangerous journey.

In this election, things got even worse. For example, Tony Abbott’s contribution to a rent resources tax was ‘a big new tax on everything’ - a slogan not a policy. A discussion about the loss of trust in politicians by the electorate or politicians bending the truth led to the ALP to call Tony Abbott ‘phoney Tony’ and setting up a fake twitter account – as if that was going to convince us to vote for them.

This is a new way that politicians seem to enjoy communicating with us – and we are all much worse off.  It is as if they think that we have become so dumb or that our attention span so limited that the best we can handle is an insult or two levelled at the other side.

Such simplification of complex problems means that we are then offered simplified solutions. For example, the solution that is offered to refugees is processing people in your preferred Pacific Island – like that will make millions displaced stay at home. Or issues around social cohesion in a multicultural Australia dealt with by a citizenship test. Up until recently, Afghanistan has been about ‘stopping terrorism’ not trying to unwind centuries of colonialism and bad foreign policy.

Has it always been like this or am I romanticising the past?

The answer is that we were often treated with more respect and issues of national importance were dealt with in a cooperative manner.

One of the best examples for us to draw on is the way that Australia dealt with the HIV/AIDS epidemic that threatened hundreds of thousands if not millions in the 1980s. This had all the makings of a catastrophe: it started in the gay community and few understood how it was spread, how many were at risk and how to stop it.

Australia’s response was lauded around the world. Neal Blewett, the then Health Minister under the Hawke Government, forged an agreement with the Opposition health spokesperson and made massive amounts of funds available to Sydney’s gay and sex worker communities to spread the word of the dangers and alter habits that were culturally embedded. As well outlined in the documentary film, Rampant: How a City Stopped a Plague , negotiations also took place with intravenous drug users.

The political risks that Blewett and many others took were immense. He could have been labelled all sorts of things and quickly marginalised. Despite this, Blewett stuck to his well-conceived strategy.

What is key here is the way Blewett refused to simplify debates around this issue. When asked if this was a ‘gay disease’ or ‘God’s revenge’ he did not respond with a slogan or a five second grab but proceeded to explain the complexity of the virus, how we were all at risk and that a broad response was required.

These were well conceived and articulated answers and treated the citizens of Australia as intelligent beings. They also drowned out the claims by those attempting to make political mileage out of this potential epidemic, such as the Reverend Fred Nile, making them appear unreasonable, uninformed and bigoted.

Blewett did not give us ‘good copy’: he gave us intelligent responses. At the time, news outlets responded by giving him more airtime than the five seconds. It was as if when treated as intelligent beings, everyone responded.

I would hate to think how a challenge like HIV/AIDS would be dealt with today: would the same level of cooperation be possible? How would we communicate this complex issue? Would our politicians be up to this challenge or would they react to polls telling them that this was not a priority for Australia’s so-called ‘battlers’ (who they would assume are never gay)? How would Senator Steve Fielding react?

It has all the makings of a disaster.

One would like to think at times of a national emergency we would respond appropriately. If the climate scientists are even half right, then that emergency is around the corner but we cannot get past slogans. It is time for intelligent debate on climate change – now that makes more common sense than anything we are currently being offered.

87 comments

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    • Eric says:

      05:54am | 15/09/10

      James, the problem with your peer-reviewed literature theory is Climategate - which revealed that paid climate scientists had corrupted the peer review mechanism itself. If the media followed your prescription - and many of them did - we’d never have known about this scandal.

      Similarly, while you might like to confine the debate over asylum shoppers to only those parts that help support your side, most people can now access other information from all sides.

      Your fantasy of a totalitarian media that only puts forward one side of an argument was certainly a reality in the past. Fortunately, we now have the Internet, and attempts to suppress dissenting voices along the lines you propose are likely to fail.

    • MarkS says:

      11:19am | 15/09/10

      Whoa Eric, I know you love getting in there first to establish your hardline, bad ass position, but this one has to take the cake. Asylum shoppers? Totalitarian media?? Maybe you’re just a bit glum because you haven’t seen the sun in a while- take five and go outside today mate, it’s a beautiful day in a glorious country smile

    • Bubba Ray says:

      11:28am | 15/09/10

      “climategate” you funny. Work intelligent design and the health benefits of tobacco in there somehow and you’d have a royal flush of sorts.

    • Nathan says:

      11:42am | 15/09/10

      Bubba, unlike AGW, climategate was proven to be true. It was proven that threats, intimidation and corruption was rife in the science community trying to shut out disenting voices. It was also a proven fact that the current climate change does not reflect any of their millions of different models.

      I am a climate skeptic but only because there has been no concrete evedence to prove that AGW exists. If the models that present don’t reflect reality, how can they be used as proof?

    • Leto says:

      01:44pm | 15/09/10

      If scientists cannot agree on man made climate change, how can politicians afford to act on it? I think that climate change has just piggy backed onto a general desire to reduce pollution and help protect the environment.

      I felt that Abbots slogan of “stop the boats” was so belittling and small minded that I couldn’t conceive of anyone voting for him. Perhaps the fact that a large percentage of the population did justifies politicians dumbing things down.

      Watch politicians behaviour during question time. Yes they are adults and yes they apparently run the nation. I think that they deal with the Australian public in the same manner they deal with each other; with great immaturity.

      How can anyone achieve anything in the face of such stupidity?

    • Huddo says:

      03:09pm | 16/09/10

      Yeah we purged everyone who tried to get a sceptical article published, so there weren’t any, which means we must be right.  Oh dear….  When I see these kinds of articles now I just laugh at how pathetic the reasoning is.

      Today’s meme is that BHP supports a carbon tax and they’re a big company right, so climate change must be true right?  Of course they’re the biggest uranium producer on the planet and a carbon would push up the price of coal and make which particular substance cheaper in comparison…..

    • Brad of Bentleigh says:

      06:29am | 15/09/10

      “110 to zero in 2007”, for the UNSW in favour of AGW… what a shocking statistic… AGW must be real and these long rage weatheh blokes must actually know what they’re talking about! - or not.

      Just out of curiousity, how many grants are awarded to someone studying say, the effects on the spotted slippery toad, in the post *non*-AGW world?

      Your statistic proves only that there is cash available when you insert “climate change” or “global warming” into your study title.
      Geez, even in my industry, if we reference these words, it rains cash from the fed and state government… no one beleives it, but they do beleive they’ll get some shekyls for their trouble.

    • TimB says:

      06:31am | 15/09/10

      Sorry James, but I gave up when I got to this part:

      “The results since 2007? Zero to the sceptics and 110 peer-reviewed to the research centre.”

      That’s the entire issue! The “peer-review” process is utterly flawed. It consists of nothing more than the same tiny group of scientists smugly patting each other on the back about how clever they all, are and making sure that anything that contradicts their research doesn’t get a look-in. Only stuff in their “personally approved” publications gets to count towards the hallowed peer reviewed status.
      And when something appears in one of those approved publications that they don’t agree with? They blackball said publication, stripping it of its status as an approved peer-reviewed source.

      Pushing your own beliefs without hard proof and going out of your way to shut down anyone who disagrees with you: That’s not science, that’s religion.

    • jarvanitakis says:

      03:51pm | 15/09/10

      Hey Tim

      I have to totally disagree with you - the peer reviewed process, while flawed, is not about a tiny group of people standing as gate keepers - anything but!

      I am often invited to peer review journal articles and have rejected many I agree with in principle and have accepted many I do not like.

      I have also been rejected many times with the words. ‘though I agree with the author blah blah blah…’ and accepted with words such as ‘I must say, I totally disagree with these arguments but the author’s methodology is sound…’

      There is room for improvement, no doubt, but your arguments are mistaken

      Cheers, j

    • Eric says:

      04:44pm | 15/09/10

      Jarvanitakis, you really should read about Climategate. Then you might understand exactly how the peer-review process was corrupted by self-interested climate scientists.

      As it stands, your comment does not reflect the reality of what happened in this particular area of research.

    • iansand says:

      05:29pm | 15/09/10

      Actually, Eric, it is you who should read about “climategate” from a source other than your mad blogs.

      I am still waiting for Team “Sceptic” to release their emails.  I bet that would be some interesting reading.

    • dead to me says:

      07:08am | 15/09/10

      Australia puts out less than 2% of the world’s CO2 output, even if we meet targets that the Greens want, it would hardly make a dent on the overall international output. The economic consequences would be tremendous for us though. Right now the basic grocery bill is the highest it has ever been, ask the average family if they can afford to pay more and more. The Rudd/Gillard government dropped the ball on CO2 emissions, they bungled the home insulation project and they have not invested in the developlment of alternative energy. They have failed and the idea of common sense being used to manage climate change can’t possible come from this current pseudo government.

    • Mayday says:

      09:10am | 15/09/10

      Well said!
      As Barnaby Joyce pointed out in his own discernible style “a room in Canberra is going to save the world from Global Warming?”

      Electricity costs have risen markedly and will continue to rise and as you say food costs are going up as well.

      The Hockey Stick Graph has finally been repudiated but that information has been kept very quiet, if you are interested the Australian had a good piece on the subject yesterday.

      http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/aunty-is-mistaken-but-not-malicious/story-e6frg6zo-1225921441996

      Finally this subject is becoming an Industry unto itself, a bit like the Y2K
      scare campaign that cost people a lot of money - will we ever learn?

    • Jimmy says:

      12:39pm | 15/09/10

      @dead to me - so what if we’re only 2%? I don’t understand the reasoning behind that argument. Isn’t this an opportunity for this country to once again lead the world in technology and scince, blaze the trail so to speak? Your argument seems to be more about trashing anything that Labor would do, rather than arguing the merits.
      Yes, expenses are high, and utilities bills are increasing. That will get much, much worse if we don’t do anything, and we’ll be painted into a corner with no options, a bed I’d prefer not to lie in.

      @Mayday, the constant invocation of Y2K as a scare campaign with no substance (only created by IT so they could make money etc.) is tiresome and ignorant. Please go and research this properly (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y2k is a good start) before invoking strawman arguments.

    • frednerkle says:

      01:01pm | 15/09/10

      Mayday,  yes this is just like the Y2K bug. The one where myself and millions of IT staff around the world got paid lots of expensive overtime to simulate the rollover to 2000.

      And millions of bugs were found: elevators, air traffic control systems, banking systems, military systems. These were found and fixed. If they werent fixed it would have been chaotic in the short term, and leading to trillions of dollars of lost productivity in the long term. The money spent on my overtime was well worth it to my organisation.

      Because all this work was done quietly by IT staff all round the world, and nothing bad happened, you think smugly to yourself that it was all nonsense and a cash grab. Its an argument from ignorance, like a lot of people make about AGW.

      Climategate was a bad look, and there is far too much political involvement in the process, but it doesnt invalidate the data.

    • Mayday says:

      02:47pm | 15/09/10

      Jimmy/Fred

      Referred to the Wikipedia site to find the whole Y2K thing was a marketing exercise and an excuse for some companies to upgrade their computers and write off old computer systems. 

      It didn’t bring the globe to a standstill…..I stand by my original comment.

      Direct quotes from the article -
      “The generally seamless global transition from the old millennium to the new does suggest that the lavish preparations were over the top”

      “As does the impression that countries whose governments spent very little on tackling the Y2K bug, like Italy and Korea, fared just as well as those who spent a lot, like the UK and the US.”

      “Firstly, there were actually plenty of Y2K problems.  But most were mundane, from broken bus ticket machines in Tasmania to police breath-testing equipment in Hong Kong.”

      British Energy spokesman Bob Fenton agrees: “We’ve had an opportunity to dump a lot of redundant software.”

      Wonder if you two were not in the industry and made lots of money out of fear, just like the global warming alarmists?


    • fred knerkle says:

      04:27pm | 15/09/10

      Mayday,

      to my reading, the wiki article is heavily leaning towards “real and necessary” in regards to work on the Y2K bug. It didnt bring the globe to a standstill because of all the work that was done.

      But of course us in IT, like all the climate scientists in the world went through years of training and study, just so we could scam a few bucks from the system by perpetrating some nebulous hoax.

      Do you sleep with that Tin Foil hat on?

      I

    • Roja says:

      05:05pm | 15/09/10

      The Y2K bug is a great analogy, a bunch of short sighted techies cut corners not realising the long term impact of their decisions.  Sure it was never likely to cause planes to fall out of the sky, but things like nuclear reactors that are on pre-determined time cycles definitely needed to have the software checked. 

      It’s the same sort of short sightedness that many people have about global warming.  I don’t know for sure one way or the other, however if I am wrong and we do something it won’t be the end of the world.  Can’t say the same for the argument against doing something.

    • James Arvanitakis says:

      11:02am | 16/09/10

      Hey dead to me…

      The % of output that we produce is not the point - we have a chance to be world leaders and encourage our industry to develop rather than having a number of important green manufacturing firms going overseas… For example Sungevity (http://www.sungevity.com/) is an amazing organisation that was essentially forced to leave Australia.

      Economically we are a quarry and our manufacturing industry is dying - and our government (both ALP/Lib) have done nothing but let this happen.

      Meanwhile, rather than explaining to us the need for a real change to our industrial and manufacturing policy (which is the actual point of my article) we get cheap sloganeering!

      There are so many ways to response to rising costs - relying on dirty coal is not one of them

      Cheers, james

    • Matt says:

      01:14pm | 16/09/10

      2% of the C02 output from Australia is supposed to be an argument AGAINST reducing emissions?

      How about you consider the fact that Australia has 0.33% of the world’s population in the same paragraph? Or the fact that Australia is 10th highest in its C02 emissions per capita?

      We are punching well above our weight in our C02 emissions and are currently in no place to ask anyone else to make changes to make more worldwide reductions.

      As far as the ‘little people making ends meet’. People can’t pay more for the cost of living than they make. If necessities like electricity go up, then optional spending like rent for a bigger house, or a second plasma for the bathroom go down. Pretty soon you find rents go down as landlords are seeing higher occupancy rates (or they stay still a short while whilst everything else inflates). I would be surprised if the average person noticed any difference at all after a short adjustment period. The argument ‘what about the little person paying more on electricity’ seem valid on the face of it, but this is only on the extremely short-term. It’s actually absorbed into the system quite quickly.

    • acotrel says:

      07:48am | 15/09/10

      As a scientist I deplore the way the climate change debate was subverted by Tony Abbott.  The issue is surely serious enough to require reasoned consideration by the Australian public?  ‘A big new tax on everything’ was totally irresponsible.  The man is a dangerous ratbag!

    • Isaac Newton says:

      08:13am | 15/09/10

      Acotrel is a scientist?  No wonder science is losing credibility with the public.

    • TimB says:

      09:03am | 15/09/10

      @ Issac Newton
      Maybe he’s a scientician.

    • Wayne Fehlhaber says:

      09:14am | 15/09/10

      Acotrel : Struth !  do you get to go anywhere near a laboratory. ?
      Bloody hell ! this could be serious. !

    • Jim says:

      11:11am | 15/09/10

      I don’t think a diploma in social science qualifies you to make a balanced comment acotrel. I’m a scientist too, and although there is no doubt that the planet has been experiencing massive changes in climate for millions of years, the influence man has made on that cycle over the last 150 years is not statistically significant.
      You warmists would be much better served sticking to measurable indicators, similar to the very effective campaign to stop the use of CFC’s and certain pesticides.

    • Ben81 says:

      01:56pm | 15/09/10

      acotrel can you please tell us all just how much difference Australia would make to average world temperatures with an ETS, if any miniscule difference at all, that justifies your label of “dangerous”? 

      If you can’t, (and don’t bother, we won’t do a damn thing even if we completely shut down overnight) don’t lunatics like the Greens telling us the Great Barrier Reef will die if we don’t introduce tax,tax,tax deserve that label?

    • James says:

      08:01am | 15/09/10

      The fact that 0 peer reviewed articles have been published by this ‘research centre’ since 2007 says more about the ideology of those at the centre than anything else.

      There have been literally thousands of peer reviewed articles published which completely demolish the entire AGW shibboleth.

      The thesis of AGW has been so thoroughly debunked in recent years that it is hard to understand how any rational thinking person could possibly accept it as settled science.

      AGW will go the way of all other ‘the end is nigh’ scares.  In a few years it will be forgotten and those who now accept it as settled will remember their erstwhile fervour with quiet embarrassment at their naivety and gullibility.

    • acotrel says:

      08:09am | 15/09/10

      ‘The thesis of AGW has been so thoroughly debunked in recent years that it is hard to understand how any rational thinking person could possibly accept it as settled science.’

      What is ‘SETTLED SCIENCE’ ? Perhaps you are displaying your ignorance?  Everything in science is based on PROBABILITY !

    • incervisiaveritas says:

      09:00am | 15/09/10

      Is that so? Then the formula for water is PROBABLY H20 ?

    • MarK says:

      09:16am | 15/09/10

      “Everything in science is based on PROBABILITY ! “

      The ignorance shown here is astounding.

    • PaulB says:

      09:29am | 15/09/10

      But the official media line has been that the “science is settled” on AGW.  Now it isn’t, its “probability”?  Sorry acotrel, its a bit late to put the fig-leaf of scientific respectability back on.  The climategate emails and the steady stream of lies, exaggerations and “errors” from the IPCC have done more damage than perhaps you realize.  We’ve all seen the propaganda in action, we’ve all seen the ABC and SBC work a speculative outcomes climate change story into every newscast (repetition works on the unsuspecting), and we’ve all seen sceptics compared to “holocaust deniers” (slander also works to silence debate).  We’ve observed how every remedy for climate change mitigation seems to involve more taxes, charges etc. being dragged from us.  In short, we know a lie when we smell one, or at least most of us do.

    • MH says:

      02:17pm | 15/09/10

      Precisely.  It’s like asking how many peer-reviewed atheistic articles were published by the Vatican since 2007.

    • acotrel says:

      08:05am | 15/09/10

      ‘It is time for intelligent debate on climate change – now that makes more common sense than anything we are currently being offered’

      Alternatively we could follow Tony Abbott and place our trust in God?.

    • Tom says:

      09:53am | 15/09/10

      Or, we could get to the core of your debating style and call everyone who doesn’t agree with your point of view a racist.

    • acotrel says:

      08:17am | 15/09/10

      I suggest the leaders of a country have an obligation to manage the risk.  Tony Abbott is proving himself to be unworthy of the role of leader! Judging from the election result, the Australian public recognise this!

    • Nick says:

      08:58am | 15/09/10

      Please Mr scientist, could you explain how introducing an ETS in Australia will have an effect on the climate? and don’t give me this crap about leading the world or doing something is better than nothing when we know China and India is spewing more and more CO2 into the atmosphere day by day.

    • Nicole says:

      09:00am | 15/09/10

      You have a major problem with Abbott, don’t you acotrel? Do you blame him for everything? Maybe you really do believe he is God. Please seek help.

    • Samuel says:

      08:21am | 15/09/10

      It makes no difference whatsoever what the ratio of believers to sceptics is.  It could be 10 000:1.  Science is not a democracy.

    • Adam Diver says:

      11:09am | 15/09/10

      Thankyou!!! The argument that a majority believe something than it must be true is so incredibly stupid particularly from scientist it defies belief. We have an article about the lack of debate, and again I see no evidence of anything in the article.

      Speaking of which, what debate are we having here:

      Global warming is occurring
      Global warming is a result of human activity
      Global warming can only be taxed out of existence
      What is the safe level of warming and what does safe even constitute
      How much carbon are we hapy to have in the atmosphere
      Why the hell do we never talk about nuclear power
      Carbon tax Vs ETS?
      How we get the developing nations to cut emmissions
      Should we protecting ourselves against the possible results of global warming (levys etc)

      If people could be so kind as to define the debate and then use evidence to back up there conclusions we will all benefit.

      P.S - We don’t have debate because people are stupid, go out and talk to people outside your tertiary educated circle and realise how stupid some people are. The governments are not dumb they know how to win votes and its not through proper debate.

    • acotrel says:

      08:25am | 15/09/10

      Dead to me , ‘this current pseudo government’ was what the Australian public voted for!  If Tony Abbott wasn’t silly in the head, he’d have won hands down! The game was handed to him on a plate.

    • Denny says:

      09:41am | 15/09/10

      No Australians did not vote for the ALP, the ALP lost seats and the Coalition gained seats therefor the loser in the hung parliament is Gillard and co. You can spin it all you want acotrel but the ALP lost and the Indepenednts and Greens did this country a great wrong by supporting them. Already this government is falling apart - health, mining tax and asylum seeker issues are all in flux. I don’t think we will get another 3 years of pseudo government BS at this rate, thank God!

    • T.Chong says:

      10:38am | 15/09/10

      Denny, No, Australians did not vote for the L/NP either , hence the lack of 76 seats for Abbott , or Gillard.
      You can spin it all you want, but the ALP is in a coalition with Greens and Independants , and no amount of hissy will change that.
      The coalition is already falling apart, Robb has already tried to oust the token woman from WA.
      BTW Denny, according to Fairfax , Palmer is now urging Abbott to add somethging (anything) ? constructive to the minerals tax debate, instead of just opposing for the sake of opposing.

    • Scarneck says:

      11:11am | 15/09/10

      Acotrel is correct, the response from Tony Abbott on this issue was pathetic.  Abbott would be better suited somewhere in the deep south of America, Louisiana Governor perhaps.

      @ Denny, get over it, the only loser in a hung parliament is the opposition. The ALP are in power and Gillard is our PM.

    • Against the Man says:

      05:32pm | 15/09/10

      Gillard is a fake PM haha her pathetic party lost seats and could not get a majority. Not a skilled a con artist as her boss Ruddy I see. And it looks like the ALP and friends are the one falling apart, heath care and the asylum seeker issue is blowing up in their face and Rudd is getting more international attention. Nice to see the PM’s pseudo daughter posing in Zoo Magazine, quality all the way…the ALP way haha!

    • coxie says:

      08:25am | 15/09/10

      There can be no “intelligent debate on climate change” until the debate on the climate by the so-called ‘intellegent people’, like the ‘king (brown) of the greens’, realize that their current economic benefits are the result of modern-man’s most ingenious evolutionary use of nature’s most powerful chemical reaction, combustion, and, therefore, the real issue is how will ‘intelegent man’ come to extinguish such use to change the climate; U238 is the best answer by a longshot.

    • The Todd says:

      09:34am | 15/09/10

      My dear Coxie, I’d have bowed to your vast intellect and taken you at your word about nuclear fission being the answer to life’s ills…except then I noticed that you misspelled “intelligent” – not once, but twice. Since then it’s been a little more difficult taking you seriously and not imagine you’ve had one too many sips from Cyprus Hill’s garden gnome…

      Although it’s been a long time since I finished Year 9 chemistry, my recollection is that combustion – the reaction between a fuel and an oxidant – is far from being the “most powerful” chemical reaction (though it IS a convenient one for humanity’s purposes). Those poor planets and stars without abundant oxygen just don’t know what they’re missing!

    • Mike T says:

      08:49am | 15/09/10

      Sorry James… im with everyone else!!

      And in other breaking news “smoking does not cause cancer” according to a massive study performed by the Benson & Hedges

    • acotrel says:

      11:01am | 15/09/10

      ‘And in other breaking news “smoking does not cause cancer” according to a massive study performed by the Benson & Hedges’.

        I really like that!  It’s sort of like Abbott’s policies being costed by consultants employed by the Liberal Party?

    • Ben81 says:

      02:10pm | 15/09/10

      acotrel believe it or not, it’s not in the interests of any party to get their costings wrong.  There’s no obligation at all to use Treasury to get policy costings, and there’s no reason to assume that what treasury says is gospel because it quite often isn’t.  Remember, it seems that someone there actually tried to sabotage the campaign of the Liberal party, which is something you would be concerned about if is was Labor having to deal with that garbage. 

      Now anyway if that’s your attitude on the issue, why aren’t you insisting on the NBN being fully costed by treasury just for one of many examples, or does it only work one way?

    • MarK says:

      03:54pm | 15/09/10

      Oh be quiet Ben

      Stop making sense and pointing out the $43 billion hole in Labors budget

      You will make our scientific friend acoterol’s head explode

    • Mike t says:

      04:35pm | 15/09/10

      Thanks Acotel…i will add a few of the “ALP lines” to the breaking new list….

      * Rudd did not leak
      * There was no bribe to the greens prior to the election
      * The BER went smoothly
      * The schools scheme was not rorted
      * Shorten and Arbib were given position based on talent
      *The ALP saved us from recession
      * If Abbot gets in work choices will be back on monday

      Hows that Acotel??  not sure why you even needed to respond to my post with an Abbott rant, but i guess you dont have the capacity to think about issue without Abbot and co front of mind. Can you make a link to Abbott and all the injustices in the world??? im sure you can, you know 6 degress and all that stuff….

    • acotrel says:

      06:26pm | 15/09/10

      Mike t , the BER ‘rorts’ represented a waste of 6% of total funding, what is the ‘waste’ in common commercial contracts?  Do you really believe Peter Garret should ha ve taken over the State OHS laws, and the purchasing authorities and controlled contractors who were doing a simple job of installing insulation.  Do you believe that contractors employed in conjuction with government programmes should have certified management systems for all of their risk areas?  You sound as though you might be a proponent of a dictatorship! Abbott’s comments, when he started slandering Garret, showed he well understoof the industrial laws, bur conveniently twisted the truth to get at the ALP!

    • Mike T says:

      10:18pm | 15/09/10

      “Actonel. Do i believe that Garret should have taken over OHS laws….. well no but when a govt department is warned that a program they are planning/implementing will/is being rorted and resulting in the deaths of individuals they should do one of the following

      1. stop the program
      2. warn individuals

      Is that an insane comment or do you prescribe to the they should do nothing because it’s not there Job??? that sounds celever…i guess you would leave an injured person in the street because its not you job.

      PS. regards to your 6% of the money for the BER be rorted, that may be the case, howevere how much was ineffective??? i beleieve that figure is rising everyday as they continue to remove and pay compensation.

      Please continue to post Actonel it gives me a chuckle

    • Phil says:

      08:52am | 15/09/10

      So James you are obviously convinced by your article that climate change is inevitable.

      How do you propose to fix this ?

      Have you given away the thought of ever getting on a dirty poluting plane!
      Sold your dirty car and bought a bike or an electric car which just so happen to cost more in carbon to produce than they save, but do give that feel good factor, just so you can ride the bike in all weather and take you on all journeys !
      Or do you like lots of others simply want a carbon tax.
      Could you also be from pluto like your leader Sir Bob Brown who thinks that we should just tax the producers they will be good corporate citizens and not pass on the increases! Given most are government owned or controlled in NSW anyway is a laugh and that increases in prices of 60+ percent are already agreed to this is even more laughable.

      See I am not convinced by all this climate change stuff, however think we should give the planet the benefit of the doubt. We should modify where possible our living to assist in reducing carbon output, mind you CO2 is a plant food so I trust all the old growth forests dont die in the future. We should also not kill off our economy otherwise, we will perish.

      If you want a carbon tax then tax everyone, no exceptions. Do not give any concessions, no compensation, because to do that and pay compensation would not give any need for anyone to modify their practises, usage or living ways, and me thinks this type of one fits all tax would be much less of an impact on prices and its a user pays. I dont pay for your bike riding you dont pay for my V8. Sure we could help the disabled, but thats about it. Most climate change and global taxes are simply about wealth redistribution and social engineering as a result of this. To remove the thought of this would show more are willing to give the planet the benefit of the doubt.

      See if we kill the economy, we kill off any ability to help others, be they in overseas aid, assisting our neighbours in need or helping fellow countrymen in need.

      As for your comments on not knowing how aids spread, come on me thinks unprotected sex and sharing needles was a major starting point.

    • The Badger says:

      09:12am | 15/09/10

      You are wasting your time.
      If you want to know the “truth”, just ask bolt

      He can’t be peer reviewed because he has no peers.

    • TimB says:

      01:25pm | 15/09/10

      Usain Bolt?

      Well he is hailed as the fastest man alive so I guess he has no peers in that regard. But I fail to see what he has to do with the article, there’s no mention of him.

      Perhaps you are reading something different to the rest of us.

    • bobw says:

      07:48pm | 15/09/10

      Love it, Badger.

    • Shaking Head says:

      10:25am | 15/09/10

      Scientists should be skeptical, the frequent use of skeptic as an insult is for rabid evangelists and should play no part in any popular science debate.  It is good to challenge consensual thinking, consensus itself does not make a truth.  History is littered with brilliant minds who successfully contradicted the powerful with vested interests even under the threat of death . 
      Hey how about we all just take some responsibility as individuals and consume less .....  didn’t think so

    • Hamish says:

      10:27am | 15/09/10

      I actually agree with the basic premise of this article - that Australian politics has been reduced to empty sloganeering. However, the examples given are actually examples of the exact opposite. Take refugees. People actually know that removing the link between permanent residency and turning up uninvited in a boat does actually stop the boats. It’s happened before. To suggest otherwise is actually doing the exact opposite to what this article proposes - it’s treating the Australian public like morons.

      AGW is another terrible example. For so long people had been brainwashed by the environmental de-industrial complex into believing that all these smarter people than us in white lab coats all agreed that we were all going to die on 7 August 2013 unless we did something right now to stop global warming. Unfortunatley the abject failure of Copenhagen and the revelations that a cabal of high-profile AGW pushers had been playing fast and loose with the data caused people to question whether they wanted to pay a lot more for everything to solve a problem that it was becoming increasingly clear may not exist. The people woke up.

      You can fool some of the people all of the time…and living in Fitzroy North I see a hell of a lot of them.

    • Mark says:

      11:17am | 15/09/10

      The core of the problem is that only a 5 second grab is what is presented on TV or radio. If a politician has a long and complex discussion on a topic then only a few words or sentences are reported and usually out of context.

    • dave says:

      11:19am | 15/09/10

      i’ve just come out of my Y2K bunker to barter for matches. So what’s been happening above ground….

    • Nathan says:

      12:03pm | 15/09/10

      The Y2K bug died and is letting off CO2 emmissions which is in turn changing the climate. It used to be called “Global Warming” untill the globe stopped warming but it continued to change, hence “Climate change”.

      I think these scientists forgot about the “Ice Age” and how the climate changed from then to now. But don’t dare question the science on this, its settled and you will be called a skeptic and compared to the Nazi’s.

    • MarK says:

      03:25pm | 15/09/10

      Not sure dave. My typewriter hasn’t worked since 2000 I guess it was the y2k bug that did it in.

      Guess I will have just use this puter thingy. HArd to find out stuff without my typewriter and my tinfoil hat keeps falling over eyes. They don’t make em like they used to.

    • Henry A says:

      11:26am | 15/09/10

      James - get over it.  AGW is dead.

      Just as the name has changed from AGW/Man Made Global Warming, to Global Warming, now to Climate Change!!

      Everyone on the planet believes in Climate Change as the Earth is and has been in constant state of flux since time began.

      Man is not causing climate change!  So the erratic seasons hot/cold is all man-made??  Man is wrecking the planet sure we all agree that but to claim that man is warming/causing climate “change” is so dumb it is beyond a joke.

      Most people think AGW is BS - you need to get out more!  Not all of us are teenagers and uni students brainwashed by Al Gore/Goldman Sachs propaganda film!

    • The Sun & Mother Nature says:

      11:44am | 15/09/10

      Spot on Henry.

      We have all noticed the sneaky name change from AGW to Climate Change.

      OK so if man is responsible for climate change - how are we rapidly swinging the Earths climate from hot to cold all over the globe?  Anyone??

      Can’t you Climate Change freaks - see the madness of you entire premise?

      Meanwhile Africa starves while the nerds and peons debate carbon credits, clean coal and a way for us to control the Earths climate!

    • The Badger says:

      12:25pm | 15/09/10

      Of course you are right.
      Man doesn’t influence nature at all.
      All those species that have gone extinct in the last 200 years were just part of the survival of the fittest thingy.
      And dumping toxins in the rivers an oceans didn’t kill anything. Long live greed and ignorance

      Denial ain’t just a river in Egypt
      Mark Twain

    • AdamC says:

      12:48pm | 15/09/10

      Badger, a couple of points. First, extinction may be caused by global warming, but it is unlikely that extinctions cause global warming. Therefore, man’s impact on extinctions is not comparable to his impacts on climate. Classic logical fallacy there, but I suspect you knew that already.

      Second, I have always wanted a list of how many species have become extinct in the last, say fifty years. Do you have one?

    • The Badger says:

      01:27pm | 15/09/10

      AdamC
      There is this thing called the internet. All kinds of information and disinformation is out there somewhere within it.
      start here if google isn’t working for you
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/lastchancetosee/sites/about/extinction.shtml

      The first two pars are:
      The world has experienced many periods of mass extinction caused by a variety of natural factors, but the greatest period of mass extinction the world has ever seen is occurring right now.
      It is reckoned that the current rate of extinction is between a hundred and a thousand times faster than the average historical extinction rate for the planet.

    • AdamC says:

      02:39pm | 15/09/10

      Um, Badger, I said a list of species. Your link says:

      “Scientists estimate that during the last century between 20,000 and two million species have become extinct. However, the observed rate of extinction has accelerated dramatically in the last 50 years, linked almost exclusively to the activities of human beings. “

      What are these 20,000 to 200million species that have become extinct? 199 980 000 is quite a range of variance, you would have to agree. To me (as it should to you) this begs the question of how many actual, substantiated extinctions have occurred and how many are merely guesstimates.

    • The Badger says:

      09:57pm | 15/09/10

      One is to many if it caused by man

    • Real Skeptic says:

      11:38am | 15/09/10

      appeal to consensus = fail

    • Amber says:

      11:48am | 15/09/10

      Your last section says it all. If it WAS the disaster that is supposedly about to befall us, that the pollies around the world claim it is, they wouldn’t be waiting for consensus before acting. If a comet was hurtling to earth, would we all sit around and debate action? It is a tax-raising rort that pollies thought up years back and unfortunately the advent of the internet has thwarted their twisted plans, bringing the truth to everyone who wants to hear it.
      All these greenies want to subjugate people to their own power- agenda, but won’t bend over and pick up a paper off the street. Hypocrisy has rarely been so well orrchestrated.

    • Chris L says:

      01:00pm | 15/09/10

      “If a comet was hurtling to earth, would we all sit around and debate action?”

      Sadly I think the answer to that question is Yes.

    • MarK says:

      03:31pm | 15/09/10

      Is this a real comet we have measured tested and have full knowledge that will hit us

      OR

      a computer simulated perhaps it might hit us comet and actually provide some benefit to the world in any case if it actually does and oh it wont cause the seas to rise 100 meters etc etc etc and we have more than 28 days to prove or disprove this computer simulation. You see no one knows form which direction it is coming from or even if it exists there is just a probability it will happen (that’s science acotrel style for ya)

      So we better change the economy and tax a naturally ocurring gas just to be safe.

      God knows the planet deserves it

      Just saying.

    • Nicole says:

      05:51pm | 15/09/10

      Chris L, if a comet was hurtling to earth, I wouldn’t be debating action. I’d be sinking as many beers as possible and smoking a sh!t load of pot!
      PS: I don’t even smoke it, but I reckon I’d make an exception.

    • HappyCynic says:

      11:56am | 15/09/10

      Man the climate sceptics sure love a bandwagon.  This article has nothing to do with climate change (real or not, I reserve my opinion for more civilised and on topic forums)

      What this article has everything to do with is the 5 second soundbites our pollies spew out of that butthole in their face and how it’s fracturing and splintering our country and dumbing down the politically “informed” like the pundits on this site.  I literally can not remember the last time I heard anything of any intelligence from any of our politicans. 

      This is a serious problem and needs to be addressed.  I believe the media needs to play a role in addressing it as well though because they’re the ones who grab the 5 second soundbites and spread them around like a disease.  I’d say can the 24 hour news channels (there’s no news on them anyway) and start putting more substance and less frequent updates into online news sites.  You know live by the whole quality over quantity philosophy.  Oh and also sack every single one of those hate-filled, fear-mongering radio talk show hosts as well.  There isn’t even a grain of truth in any of the junk they pour out over the radio.  Just listening to one for longer than a few seconds makes me sick to my stomach.

    • Henry A says:

      12:04pm | 15/09/10

      Ok explain how man is heating and cooling the globe?

      And you wonder why the skeptic bandwagon is overflowing?

    • Hamish says:

      12:33pm | 15/09/10

      Happy, I agree with the premise of the article, but the examples used are actually examples of ‘5 second soundbites’. The ‘there is global scientific consensus on climate change’ is the most notable and egregious (and irrelevant) five second soundbite of the last 5-10 years.

    • HappyCynic says:

      01:30pm | 15/09/10

      Henry A, your incomprehension of what I wrote is staggeringly ignorant, I said the premise of this article has nothing to do with climate change and gave no opinion on climate change.  Read again or go back to primary school and finish studying remedial english.

      Hamish, I agree, any consensus in science is dangerously ignorant and spewing that out to media is just irresponsible but this is what you get when scientists attempt to enter the political arena (1st mistake)and then get ignored when they attempt to explain their theories in a way that an intelligent person might understand (2nd mistake - there are no intelligent people in the political arena), then journalists either don’t understand (3rd mistake and a mistake that flows back to standards of education) or don’t care because big, long, complicated theories from egg-heads do not sell papers (4th mistake).  But this whole problem extends far beyond the “discussion” around climate change and extends to election campaigns, economic issues, taxation, health, education, basically any and every “discussion” pollies attempt to enter into.

    • MarK says:

      12:06pm | 15/09/10

      All this argument over the “science” of AGW.

      All that “science” is merely computer models programmed with certain information. The information is questionable the process by which the information is rendered is questionable and the results are questionable.

      And for this we reshape the world economy.

      Awesome stuff.

      How about we look at the reports that give the net benefits to the world IF AGW is real. There are many.

      But I digress. As usual Badger has come in with a knock at BoltA and yet he fails to point out that the OP has used a piece by Clive Hamilton to justify his position.

      I mean really. If we are to quote a Hamilton and use him as an expert why does the OP not quote Bolt, Monktom, Montford et al.

      Hamilton???

      And this proves your point? This is the same guy that was going to win Higgins remember. What a joke.

      What a joke.

      We are using a computer model programmed with dodgy data to give us justification to redistribute wealth.

      I lol.

    • The Badger says:

      12:47pm | 15/09/10

      I apologize for pointing at bolt mark.
      He has invested decades in studying many relevant science disciplines, has written many peer reviewed articles on climate change and his opinion should be respected

      .I suppose you lol a lot mark and your three friends (me, myself and I) probably really enjoy your jokes .

      Some people change when they see the light, others when they feel the heat.
      Caroline Schoeder

      which will it be for you?

    • Carl Palmer says:

      02:09pm | 15/09/10

      James, climategate discredits you whole proposition . The Climategate affair exposed what a group of people have always suspected – something was not quite right and it still remains – not quite right.

      The interesting thing for me is this, if these global scientists are so capable and extremely confident of the cause which is supported by their findings then they should be equally capable of suggesting with equal force what needs to be done from a scientific perspective to rectify the problem.  Why the silence.

      Using your HIV example, I doubt that the politicians would have come up with “the solution” I somehow think that the medical community played a critical role in formulating a response.  They would have made the recommendations on how to deal with the problem, the politician’s job was to be convinced that it was right and to then stick – not necessarily “sell” that strategy.  As for climate change, did the global scientific community recommend any solution(s) that would address the greatest moral…………….

    • bobw says:

      11:21pm | 15/09/10

      Good article, James.  It’s a shame the comments section has been hijacked by the peanut gallery of anonymous “experts” that any mention of “climate change” seems to attract.  There seems to be some kind of Pavlovian reflex at work:  (a) see words “climate change”; (b) immediately spout meaningless colour-by-numbers catchphrase as though it constitutes conclusive “argument”.  I’m just waiting for someone to mention the “medieval warm period”.

    • Steve says:

      04:55pm | 21/09/10

      “If the climate scientists are even half right, then that emergency is around the corner ...”  Shame that the odds that their right are higer than that… but since this debate has been going on for 30 years or more, seems to me that we’ve missed the boat already.

    • Davido says:

      05:33pm | 08/10/10

      The average person is stupid. That surprises you?

      If it were up to me I would take the vote away from those who cannot answer some simple questions. One might be…. name the person you will be voting for.

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      11:53am | 09/08/11

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