Last week Penbo railed against Cancer Council advice that drinking any alcohol at all was a cancer risk. The Cancer Council responded, saying they were just relaying the science. Now, winemakers have their say.

It's all about balance. PIc: Naomi Jellicoe

Many of the posts in response to the article by the Cancer Council Australia’s chief lobbyist Paul Grogan picked up the basic flaw in his argument, but as winemakers are one of the targets of CCA’s latest media flurry I would like to add my two cents’ worth.

Grogan’s defensive cries that they “don’t make this stuff up”, but that is not what people are accusing them of. The Winemakers’ Federation of Australia acknowledges that a link has been found between alcohol and a level of cancer risk, just as there is a link between numerous other activities in life and cancer risk. That is not new news, despite recent headlines.

But the council cannot claim, as Grogan does, that this is about letting people “make their own decisions based on the evidence” when it is telling only one side of the story in its current media and advertising campaign.

Where, for example, is the mention that heart disease remains Australia’s biggest killer and largest hospital burden and that research has shown that moderate consumption of alcohol promotes both short-term and long-term cardio-protective effects?

Imagine if winemakers released a television commercial making that point; the anti-alcohol lobby would scream blue murder. Yet the Cancer Council feels it is acceptable to release a commercial that is equally accurate but unbalanced in relation to the overall issue confronting consumers.

And where is the acknowledgement that the aetiological fractions that account for alcohol cancer risk being so significant are mainly due to its co-association with other risk factors such as obesity, exercise, diet and smoking? For example, smoking and drinking in concert increase the risk higher than what they would separately.

The council highlights wine in its advertisement, yet the relationship between wine consumption and cancer is much more complex than the one it presents.

Research shows, for example, that moderate wine consumption may actually reduce the risk of mouth, throat, oesophagus, lung and colorectal cancers as well as Non-Hodgkin’s Lymphoma. A recent study even shows an ingredient which naturally occurs in red wine enhances the effects of a drug used to combat breast cancer.

The key word here is “moderate”. As with everything in life, it’s about finding a balance. If people are going to be assisted to do that, we need to present all the information, not just tell one side of the story to support specific aims.

For now, WFA recommends that to enjoy the benefits and minimise the risks of alcohol consumption, people drink according to the National Health and Medical Research Council’s Australian guidelines.

59 comments

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    • deb says:

      07:05am | 20/05/11

      Moderate? Not a word many Aussies understand.We seem to believe that moderation is a new wave of dishwashers or something.
      I have tried drinking a nice drop of wine moderately and ended up pissed as a fart.
      For me and many others its not the threat of cancer but getting up for work the next day that concerns us.
        Why is wine targeted? because it is cheap .

    • acotrel says:

      08:52am | 20/05/11

      @Andrew I totally agree with your comments.  I have a post grad diploma in occupational hygiene.  During my studies cancer causation was a major topic.  I also worked as a Chemical Hazards Officer for a large corporation, and was involved in assessing the risks associated with various chemicals.  Ethanol has the same risks associated with it as thousands of other chemicals in every day use.  It is recognised as a ‘promoter’ rather than as a carcinogen.  Until recently formaldeyde was always listed as a suspected carcinogen, and ethanol was not even on the horizon. Formaldehyde is now a listed carcinogen, but it would be a brave scientist who tried to list ethanol as a carcinogen.  If you think about the number of alcohol soaked swabs used in hospitals over the years, how many cases of skin cancer werre caused? Most common chemicals carry the notation ‘suspected tumorigen’.  This is usually due to researchers covering their owqn backsides.  Cancer occurs naturally in every population, it’s often impossible to establish causation by independent factors.  There is only one thing I’s say about alcohol causing cancer - the combination of smoking, and drinking is a bad one.  Cigarette smoke contains benzo-a-pyrene, and many other polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons.  The only known combination which RELIABLY causes cancer in test animals is BAP with a promoter!

    • Jay-ded says:

      08:53am | 20/05/11

      I’ll drink to that !

    • Shane says:

      09:25am | 20/05/11

      @acotrel

      I will C&P because I don’t have the time to address all the flaws in your arguments:

      “In human beings, ethanol in alcoholic drinks is mainly oxidised in the liver by alcohol dehydrogenases to acetaldehyde, and is further detoxified to acetate by aldehyde dehydrogenases. Functional variants in genes involved in alcohol metabolism result in differences between individuals in exposure to carcinogenic acetaldehyde, suggesting a possible interaction of genetic susceptibility and alcohol exposure in cancer.”

      So yes, you go ahead and cling to the word ‘possible’ in that quote above while the rest of us accept that there is a link between ethanol and cancer.

      Cheers

    • Tom says:

      09:50am | 20/05/11

      Gawd acetrol, you really get your rocks off on your organic chemistry. You are awesome. Homebrewer? Scientist?

    • acotrel says:

      10:15am | 20/05/11

      @Tom I spent 40 years working as an industrial chemist, and I’m qualified as in occupational hygienist.  I’ve never done the home brewing thing, I have some appreciation of good wine, and my attempts would never compete.

    • acotrel says:

      10:23am | 20/05/11

      @Shane I don’t deny there is an association, but I doubt that alcohol itself is a carcinogen.  It’s recognised as a ‘promoter’.  It causes other chemicals to act and cause cancer! If you smoke, don’t drink!

    • stevem says:

      10:27am | 20/05/11

      I think I’ll agree with acotrel, possibly the first time ever!

      The studies I’ve seen link tongue throat and esophageal cancers with alcohol consumption. By far the strongest correlation was with those that consumed straight spirits.

    • Chris R says:

      08:14am | 20/05/11

      Hmmm…let’s see. It’s the CANCER Council. It’s not the Council for Overall Well Being. This is a group dedicated to eradicating cancer from the world - what I would call a noble pursuit.

      Versus the WINE Federation. A group dedicated to making money from their product. Nothing wrong with that in a general sense but it’s a slightly less noble cause.

      The cancer council, AFAIK, is not advocating prohibition. It’s presenting information. You can ignore it if you like.

    • DM says:

      09:19am | 20/05/11

      I agree with this. Their statement is about ALCOHOL and CANCER. Why should the cancer council weigh in about heart disease?

      Also, the author should really reference where he got the information that heart disease kills more people than cancer. This was the case until a few years ago. The last hard data I saw had cancer overtaking heart disease.

      Yes there is a co-association between alcohol and other factors, but the statement referred to alcohol independently, just as high fat diet, no exercise, and smoking all act independently to promote cancer.

    • HappyCynic says:

      12:11pm | 20/05/11

      But how come we don’t get any balance?  In fact this question applies to everything, politics (the inane, insane and stupid bickering of Abbott and Gillard etc), finance, food, religion, health, climate all of it.

      The only theory I can come up with is that people (as in us, the general population) are, on the whole, too stupid and too ignorant to understand a nuanced and intelligent discussion about both the negative and positive effects of a subject.  It’s either good or bad and it can never be neither or both.

      This kind of absolutism makes idiots of us all.

    • Loxy says:

      08:34am | 20/05/11

      Pretty much everything gives you cancer these days (apparently) so you may as well enjoy life and have a glass or two of wine when you feel like it!

    • acotrel says:

      08:56am | 20/05/11

      @Loxy There are some chemicals I avoid strenuously, ethanol is not one of them.  If you worry about getting cancer from it, you should also worry about jumbo jets crashing onto your house!

    • Que says:

      09:08am | 20/05/11

      I think you need to go back and read the replies from the article this refers to. Your argument has been covered. Remember the NHF is also an advocacy group that gives the tick to McDonalds and Coco-pops. Check the science instead.

    • Kate says:

      09:32am | 20/05/11

      Ha. @Que “Your argument has been covered” could be a retort for most arguments - including Andrew’s article.

      And checking the science is a pretty laborious process. It’s like saying: check google.

    • Que says:

      12:05pm | 20/05/11

      @Kate

      OK, ignore the science. Your choice.

      BTW I can cut and paste the same answers to your questions if you find navigating to the previous article laborious.  Always here to help.

    • Anon says:

      02:11pm | 20/05/11

      @Que - do you really think the Heart Foundation (or Cancer Council, for that matter) would base their positions on anything other than science?  They do it so the average person doesn’t have to.

    • Que says:

      02:59pm | 20/05/11

      @Anon. You mean like the NHF giving the tick to McDonalds and Coco-pops? Follow the money.

    • Gerry says:

      09:07am | 20/05/11

      Andrew makes some good points in his piece here, particularly the bit about alcohol often being but one of a grab bag of the usual suspects: obesity etc. However, he does not spell out what “moderate” means and Deb has indicated some problems with that. More importantly, the idea about red wine being good for the heart is one winemakers love but they never discuss the limits; for men, of a certain (middle) age, with particular predispositions to some heart ailments. Phew, it fits me. Overall though, the limited benefits have to compensate for the damage and I don’t think those selling alcohol like that being discussed too much. Can I have my dead schoolmates back please?

    • Steve says:

      10:18am | 20/05/11

      Actually Andrew DID recommend that people follow the NHMRC low risk drinking guidelines - 2 standard drinks a day.

      People who have a problem drining in moderation simply need to learn some self-control, a quality society seems to no longer value.

    • acotrel says:

      09:17am | 20/05/11

      @Anon Alcohol has other heart effects which are undesirable.  It affects the blood fats levels, and it’s addictive.  It also affects blood pressure.  I’d be suprised if the Heart Foundation recommended it because of it’s benefits. But there is another consideration.  I believe many people these days are very ‘wound up.  Adrenalin released due to stress affects the liver and causes production of cholesterol.  The effect looks genetic, but it probably has a lot to do with learned psychology - the way we handle things.’ A lot of us probably need a small dose of tranquiliser on a regular basis.  Drinking alcohol in moderation is probably not a bad option compared to a heart op to unclog our arteries.

    • Gladys says:

      09:31am | 20/05/11

      Gawd. So can we have a glass of wine or not?

    • Adam says:

      11:11am | 20/05/11

      @Gladys,

      Yep you sure can if you are of legal age and sick to death of the nanny state trying to make all your life choices for you.

      I a’llas one at eleven and a’llas has eleven at one

    • Chewy says:

      09:49am | 20/05/11

      Moderate?
      Perhaps more of your members could release more readily available at retail level 375 & 500 ml bottles.
      I wish for more variety in these sizes and no doubt other consumers do too.

    • Steve says:

      10:27am | 20/05/11

      The wine industry, like pretty much every competive industry, provides what its customers want. 

      If the demand for the smaller bottles was there, or increases, the industry will bottle more in those sizes. 

      I think that one of the barriers to smaller bottle sizes is that as most wine is already cheap due to the glut, less wine in the bottle does not make the price much lower and appears to have worse value.  Also, smaller bottles hence lower price means less turn-over for restaurants and retailers.

    • jf says:

      01:36pm | 20/05/11

      Maybe they could stick to those convenient bottle sizes and just stop sending their reps around to people’s houses and making them drink the whole bottle.

    • Dieter Moeckel says:

      10:01am | 20/05/11

      Wow all the above arguments could be equally compelling for cannabis. “Dope in moderation is good for you. It is an effective analgesic; it makes you happy; it does not give you cancer - in moderation.
      Some 19th century luminaries smoked opium in moderation,
      Stop prohibition or prohibit all drugs - selective prohibition not moderate drugs use is detrimental to our society and community.

    • Steve says:

      10:03am | 20/05/11

      If we avoided all the things that MIGHT slightly increase our RISK of getting cancer we would lead very empty lives.  No having a drink at the pub (alcohol), no swimming at the beach or bushwalking (sunshine), no cappuccinos in trendy cafes (coffee) and no keeping in touch with friends and family (mobile phones).

      Do us a real favour, Cancer Council, use the money you raise to try and find a cure for cancer rather than putting on the world’s most ridiculous guilt trip.

    • Tom says:

      10:35am | 20/05/11

      Wow, ‘find a cure’! Don’t you think prevention is also important?

    • HappyCynic says:

      01:54pm | 20/05/11

      @Tom

      Prevention is almost impossible.  The odds of getting cancer in your lifetime are equivalent to a coin toss.  Heads - you get cancer, Tails - you don’t.  Preventative measures will barely have an impact on those odds.

      Instead I prefer the eat, drink, laugh and die young, leaving a beautiful corpse behind measure of avoiding cancer.  Since getting cancer is less likely when you’re young.

    • acotrel says:

      10:39pm | 20/05/11

      @Happy Cynic.  I suggest that most smokers don’t die of cancer.  It’s usually strokes and lung infections.  If you get cancer from anything else you have probably been negligent using chemicals or asbestos in a workplace.  I’ve never looked at the stats on deaths involving cancer.  How does it compare with the road toll? In any case causation of cancer is helped by a low immune system, and often stress is a cause of that?  Perhaps it’s better to combat stress with a little drinky-poo?  Let’s ask a doctor?  I’ll bet they’ll all give up drinking because they might get cancer?

    • Dieter Moeckel says:

      10:05am | 20/05/11

      Mention the five letter C word and everyone goes mentally ballistic -
      I can remember when charred meat from the BBQ was deemed a putative cancer agent

    • Yuri says:

      10:50am | 20/05/11

      Five letter C word? Obviously you mean 6 letters (Cancer) as the only 5 letter C words I could find on this page were Cheap and Chewy

    • Bob says:

      10:37am | 20/05/11

      There is no evidence that any alcohol consumption is good for the heart. None whatsoever.

      The confusion came about when a study found Resveratrol was good for the heart. Winemakers realised that Resveratrol is a component in their wine, therefore, they claimed, their wine is heart healthy. Not only that, they claimed any study done on Resveratrol as a study that promoted the health benefits of red wine.

      The truth is that the amount of Resveratrol in red wine is not enough to have a therapeutic effect. You’d have to drink 100 litres of wine a day to get enough. That’s why the only way to get the benefits of Resveratrol is through a supplement tablet.

      So, once again a powerful lobby is trying to push their product claiming it has health benefits that have never been found in any properly conducted scientific study.

    • Steve says:

      11:44am | 20/05/11

      @Bob

      not according to the British Medical Journal which published a meta analysis earlier this year. 

      “Conclusions -  Light to moderate alcohol consumption is
      associated with a reduced risk of multiple cardiovascular
      outcomes.”
      BMJ 2011;342:d671doi:10.1136/bmj.d671

    • Que says:

      12:24pm | 20/05/11

      Wow. You are really off the reservation.

      “There is no evidence that any alcohol consumption is good for the heart. None whatsoever.” - that has to be one of the most ignorant statements in this debate to date. Dozens of prospective international trials show the cardiovascular benefits of alcohol are moderate levels (some at higher levels).

      You are right about Resveratrol though. It is probably not the mechanism through which the J-curve mortality benefits of alcohol are achieved. The levels are too small (unlike in southern French and Sicilian wine varieties)

    • Anna C says:

      10:44am | 20/05/11

      I’m sick of all these people like the Cancer Council constantly telling us what to do. What a bunch of killjoys they are. No wonder there is so much Depression in the world; when everyday we are constantly being bombarded with information about how eating this or that, is going to kill you.  What’s with the mixed messages; one day you hear that drinking wine is good for you and then the next day you hear that it’s going to give your cancer.  For god’s sake just shut up all of you and let me enjoy my life in peace.

    • jf says:

      01:39pm | 20/05/11

      “I’m sick of all these people like the Cancer Council constantly telling us what to do.”

      I can’t find one single reference (web, newspaper, tv any…) where the Cancer Counil is “telling us what to do”.

      What on earth would you do if the stopped Anna C? Where would you find an outlet for your rage.

    • Brett says:

      10:48am | 20/05/11

      You only have to look to the past to dismiss the current hysteria in this country about everything.  Just how do so many people survive to their eighties and nineties, when the majority of people smoked?  Perhaps it’s because people were more physoically active in those days and high calory processed foods were not conveniently available on every corner and at every second meal.  As for the well known benefits of a coupel of drinks a day…when will the health nazis ever stop?  Sure, in the beige future , if the health, safety and fun police get their way, we might all end up living a couple of extra years, but will it be really worth it all?  As the oldies say, the key is everything in moderation. Just get on and enjoy our short lives without all the nanny state interference, regulation and hysteria.

    • Muttley says:

      11:41am | 20/05/11

      So alcohol causes cancer? Then i assume all the social police screaming for smokers to cover their health costs will now leap forward to make the same demand of drinkers? Dont think so some how.

    • Paul Grogan says:

      12:19pm | 20/05/11

      As I said in my article, Cancer Council has a responsibility to publish scientific evidence on cancer risk, even if it makes us unpopular among some individuals and commercial interest groups. It’s about choice.

      If an agent of the wine industry says research shows moderate wine consumption “may actually” reduce the risk of mouth, throat, oesophageal, lung and colorectal cancers, but the largest ever independent epidemiological study not only concludes that alcohol is a direct cause of four of those cancers and that there is no substantial evidence of alcohol providing any cancer protective effect, people can choose who to believe.

      And if people are confused about whether or not they should drink alcohol for cardiac benefit, they can check the websites of the American Heart Association and the National Heart Foundation of Australia, which both advise against consuming alcohol for heart health.

      We are fortunate to live in a society that enables us to make personal choices. But what is choice without independent information?

      Paul Grogan

    • Que says:

      12:53pm | 20/05/11

      Paul, information has to be provided in context. The CCA media release was not. The public have a right to know this as well. I sure you are aware how easily the public can be swayed by narrow snippets of information - I assume this was the purpose.

      I could have released a media puff piece along the lines of “any driving puts you at risk of car crashes”. This is of course meaningless because it obscures the benefits of modern society, business, travel etc.

    • Shane says:

      01:01pm | 20/05/11

      @ Que

      Sorry, but reading Paul’s comment all I could think was ‘Sounds reasonable’ and all I could think of while reading yours was ‘Straw Man.’

    • Que says:

      01:08pm | 20/05/11

      “American Heart Association - advise against consuming alcohol for heart health”  - I corrected you yesterday so here I go again.

      You are deliberately misleading the readers.

      The AHA recommends that if you drink keep it at 1-2 per day. They do not recommend you take up drinking if you currently do not. This is different to what you claim.

      Context Paul! Not deceit.

    • Que says:

      01:24pm | 20/05/11

      @Shane

      Don’ t be naive Shane.

    • Shane says:

      02:03pm | 20/05/11

      You are arguing two different points.

      Paul should have written: “Neither the AHA nor the AHF recommend drinking alcohol for heart health.”

      However, Que, your response that the AHA and AHF recommend people, if they drink, do not exceed a certain limit is NOT a rebuttal of Paul’s (incorrectly worded) point, either. To refute Paul’s point you would have to find where the AHA/AHF explicitly recommend drinking wine for heart health OR you would have to find where the AHA/AHF would make a recommendation such as the one Paul says they do, and show that not to be the case. You do neither.

      So in essence Paul muddled up his words and Que argued a different point. What I imagine you were both trying to say is this:

      1. Neither the AHA/AHF recommend drinking wine for heart health.
      2. Both the AHA/AHF recommend that those who choose to drink do so within certain levels.

      Comprehension is a bitch, ain’t it?

    • Que says:

      02:56pm | 20/05/11

      @Shane. I think we agree with each other with regards to the current recommendations.

      The problem is that Paul Grogan conveniently omits the qualifying details when it supports an absolutist approach to alcohol use. This results in quite a different tenor of advice to the lay public and is therefore quite misleading.

      Comprehension is a bitch and Paul seems to conveniently ignore it while interpreting the guidelines.

    • Tell It Like It Is says:

      12:44pm | 20/05/11

      I hope they took account of the preservatives in the wine, as opposed to the wine itself, when doing their research.

    • Steve says:

      01:29pm | 20/05/11

      I think the Cancer Council would agree with the winemakers on this one.  Do you mean the alcohol (the main “preservative” in wine) of sulphur dioxide?  No evidence of the latter causing cancer.

    • Man of the World says:

      01:31pm | 20/05/11

      I suppose it makes them feel important…it’s nice to know there’s no shortage of people telling you how to live your life. Honestly, do these people ever put the shoe on the other foot?? Oh well, never mind. Now, where’s my schedule for breathing in and out? Hope there’s no carbon tax on it…

    • Flexo says:

      01:43pm | 20/05/11

      So when do we expect plain packaging on ALL alcoholic beverages? Or is Roxon selective on which interest groups she picks on based on their union….....

    • Paul Grogan says:

      02:27pm | 20/05/11

      Que, this is what the American Heart Association says, word for word (their use of upper case, not mine): “Given these and other risks, the American Heart Association cautions people NOT to start drinking if they do not already drink alcohol. Consult your doctor on the benefits and risks of consuming alcohol in moderation.”

      It’s right here, under the broad heading “Alcohol and cardiovascular disease”:
      http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Conditions/Alcohol-and-Cardiovascular-Disease_UCM_305173_Article.jsp

      Again, people have a choice, but they should have access to information from independent, transparent groups that are leaders in their field. If people don’t like the message, they can ignore it.

      Others can judge if my verbatim reiteration of public information from the world’s largest independent cardiac health authority, along with weblinks and without any editorialising on my part, somehow equates to a “deceit”.

      We will stick with the evidence.

      Paul Grogan

    • Que says:

      03:21pm | 20/05/11

      Once again you are being deceptive in your comments. You missed the first paragraph:

      “If you drink alcohol, do so in moderation. This means an average of one to two drinks per day for men and one drink per day for women.”

      I can only interpret your approach to science as post-modern.

    • Pete says:

      12:11am | 21/05/11

      Actually, the Cancer Council recommends we stick to the National Health and Medical Research Council guidelines, which say two drinks per day for men or women. I think they are telling us what the risk is (factual information) and recommending we drink in moderation. Is that so bad?

    • Bazza says:

      02:46pm | 20/05/11

      People, just because someone reports the results of a finding doesn’t mean they’re telling you how to live your life. Surely you’d rather know the risks than pretend they didn’t exist?!? So chill out.

    • David says:

      02:46pm | 20/05/11

      Who realy cares , we all must die of something.
      Wine isn’t cheep in Australia in italy it can be baught everywhere for about 2 euro a bottle. Alcohol in general isnt cheep, 500ml bottle of beer in germany is 0.7euro, a 700ml bottle of rum in Cuba is 2CUC. The Cubans smoke like chimnies and drink like fish and live for as long as us and out live the USA. This is inspite of poor hygine water etc.
      They must be doing something right.

    • Alexander the Grape says:

      05:04pm | 20/05/11

      Que. It appears to me that you are the would-be deceiver. As others on this blog point out, the Cancer Council, Heart Foundation etc. just put the information out there. People can then decide for themselves. If you want to drink every day and convince yourself it’s good for you, go for it.

      I love wine. I even grow my own muscatel grapes, which I have attempted to make into wine (not very successfully). But I’m grateful to know the risks of regular, long-term consumption. So I’m going to have a couple of wine-free days a week now, which will be a good thing for me on numerous levels. Among other things, I think the wine will taste better if I don’t drink it every day; and I’ll save money too. I suspect it’s the fear of people making this kind of informed decision that has commercial interests worried.

      If making this kind of personal decision doesn’t suit you, then don’t do it.

      But continually trying to deconstruct the evidence, while maligning those who merely publish it, suggests you have an agenda.

    • Peter says:

      09:27am | 23/05/11

      Cannabis use decreases the risk of cancer, and its not a caussative association as the one you mention. They also brush over the fact that it has killed cancer cells in test-tubes.

      Your logic is flawed though, you will be lucky if the only thing that alcohol gives you is cancer. check emergency hospital emmisions, child abuse, and a plethoroa of other statistics. Na, you wouldnt, doesnt work well in a straw man world.

 

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