One day the Government may need to stage an intervention in Sydney’s plushest suburbs, Byron Bay’s glorious expanse, and the genteel landscape of the Adelaide Hills.

Nothing to be afraid of, son. Illustration: John Tiedemann

These are the places where some children’s lives are at risk because parents have entirely lost trust in governments, and are turning to some dodgy alternative sources of health information.

Studies by the Federal health department, CSIRO and the National Centre for Immunisation Research and Surveillance have shown that while overall Australia’s uptake of vaccination is good – mostly around 90 per cent for children - in certain regions the levels of conscientious objectors have soared, resulting in clusters of deadly diseases.

Just over one per cent of Australians are conscientious objectors – but in some areas it’s up to one in five. NSW Health figures show there are 300 per cent more cases of whooping cough in areas with low vaccination rates.

That’s a bitch of a disease, by the way, one that can and has killed babies. Babies too young to be fully immunised themselves.

NCIRS deputy director Rob Menzies said in a recent news report that highly educated people doing their own research were most likely to reject advice to immunise.

“(A lot) of people are likely to find wacky anti-vaccination sites where a lot of the information is distorted,” he said.

NSW paediatrician Dr Chris Ingall added this: “We’re appalled at how many kids are getting whooping cough because the chardonnay set and the alternatives don’t vaccinate their children”.

He added that his current advice was to ‘cocoon’ newborns; keeping them out of the community and thus out of danger.

The vaccination debate always hits as the flu season kicks in; as it’s doing now. There will be the usual complaints from people who had the flu jab and then get a cold that obviously the needle didn’t work.

And plenty of people will remember with foreboding what happened last year, when CSL’s product Fluvax – a really bad batch of vaccine - triggered febrile convulsions in one in 100 children who received it.

The story of Fluvax, and those affected by it, and by swine flu, was explored in a great piece in the latest Weekend Australian magazine. The feature by Natasha Bita wades into the murky waters of childhood immunisation and rightly comes up with many answers, but no single, overarching answer (unfortunately the anti-vaxxers have taken the fact the article actually explored some of the risks of vaccination as proof that it is evil).

There is never just one answer to the question of vaccination because it, like almost every child rearing decision, is a matter of weighing up risks and benefits.

Conscientious objectors are failing in that decision-making process;  in their minds the risks are exaggerated, the benefits forgotten. So we have these pockets where parents are doing the equivalent of locking their children indoors to protect them from paedophiles, because they misunderstand the relevant risks.

The negative press from the Fluvax case has spread across to other types of vaccinations, ones in which side effects are rare and the health benefits striking.

If more people start to reject vaccination, and the government fails to make up the numbers by making sure there are no other obstacles to vaccination, the worst-case scenario is increasing numbers of children dying, being brain damaged, irreversibly damaged from diseases like whooping cough, or measles. 

Of course the government will not ‘intervene’. Governments have to do something much more difficult than that; and that’s to earn the trust of the skeptical ‘chardonnay sets’ and ‘alternatives’. That these highly educated people think the Australian Vaccination Network and its ilk are a better source of information than the authorities is a fairly embarrassing indictment on our dear leaders. 

140 comments

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    • bec says:

      05:37am | 31/05/11

      I got whooping cough three weeks ago from some kid whose parents are numpty conscientious objectors. So much rage.


      (Also, srsly, ensure your vaccinations are up to date as an adult. Whooping cough blows.)

    • acotrel says:

      08:18am | 31/05/11

      The same people who resist having their kids vaccinated probably believe in psuedoscience!  Aromatherapy is my favourite, but homeopatthy is pretty good:
      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0

      My friend got prostate cancer, and believed in following the ‘natural path’ - he’s dead now!

    • acotrel says:

      08:31am | 31/05/11

      It doesn’t help the cause of preventive medicine, when doctors recommend vaccination against influenza in full recognition that the side effects have almost killed some heart patients.

    • AAAdam says:

      09:11am | 31/05/11

      While I respect the right of individuals to not have vaccinations (or do the same for their children) I believe others have an evn more inalienable right to not be subjected to the effects of such behaviour. Bec getting whooping cough is a classic example of one parents behaviour having an impact on another. Perhaps we should record vaccinations on drivers licences; that way those who are not immunised could be refused access to public venues, pulic transport, schools, shops, etc. Only then would the risk associated with not being immunised be fully internalised within the person/family who made such a decision.

    • rb says:

      09:27am | 31/05/11

      It seems many cases of pertussis are adults that have not maintained their vaccs. How do they know where they are catching it from. Other unvacc adults perhaps?

    • AS says:

      02:01pm | 31/05/11

      @ Bec,
      Presumably as a consenting adult, the choice is yours to be up to date on your own whooping cough vaccination.  What was stopping you?  Having now acquired whooping cough naturally, you will now enjoy life long immunity from whooping cough, as will the child you caught it from - unlike those with artificial vaccination.

    • vaccination con says:

      03:17pm | 31/05/11

      We’re part of a medical family (GP) and didn’t vaccinate our kids nor recommend it. If the advertisements from the multi billion dollar pharmaceutical industry which is endorsed by our corrupt government, were true, only the unvaccinated would get the disease. We all know that this is not true.
      Case closed.

    • marley says:

      04:16pm | 31/05/11

      @vaccination con - for someone with alleged medical connections, you don’t know much, do you?  Let’s take as an example a little outbreak of measles a few years ago in a western country - 80% of the population was vaccinated, 20% not.  If vaccinations don’t work, then logically, of the people who got the measles 80% would have had the vaccine, and 20% would not.  In fact, of the people who got the measles, 3% had been vaccinated and 97% had not.

      And any GP with the slightest knowledge of infectious diseases would know that.

    • Tom says:

      06:28pm | 31/05/11

      vaccination con, where did your supposed GP family member study medicine? They obviously didn’t teach epidemiology or evidence based medicine at this medical school. No drug - and that includes vaccines - is 100% effective. Quite apart from being an argument not to vaccinate, the opposite applies. As not all people will get immunity from vaccination, it is imperative that as many people as possible are vaccinated so those who do not have immunity are less likely to come into contact with an active carrier of the disease. I suggest you google herd immunity.

    • Mary says:

      08:17pm | 31/05/11

      Vaccination Con, I don’t believe for a minute that you are from a “medical family” if you are spouting antivax comments. We aren’t that stupid.

    • AAAdam says:

      10:12am | 01/06/11

      What exactly is a “medical family”? I’d posit it is probably all the hangers on, failures, dole bludgers and other non-achievers that have a GP in their (extended) family and try to leverage off his/her success to gain credibility by calling themselves part of a “medical family”.

    • David says:

      11:55pm | 25/07/11

      Acotrel, my mum and grandfather had cancer, followed our medical system through to the end, they are dead now too.

    • Gregg says:

      05:42am | 31/05/11

      It’ll be OK as long as they keep those anti vaxers a whooping long way from being coughed up into the same pod as those prepared to question global warming and carbon taxing.
      Pity the kids of the former though.

    • Super D says:

      05:48am | 31/05/11

      It’s worth noting that in areas where climate science is most accepted, medical science is least so.

      Frankly if people don’t vaccinate your kids and they get these communicable diseases the kids should be taken into state care until they are over the disease and up to date with their vaccinations.  The parents should be publicly shamed.

    • James In Footscray says:

      09:35am | 31/05/11

      Haha interesting point Super D! Everyone I know who opposes ‘Western interventionist medicine’ also believes strongly in climate action, because it’s ‘the science’. I wonder why?

    • Mitchell says:

      06:52am | 31/05/11

      It’s very easy and cheap to start a website, misrepresent a science journal article that no one is going to read and get your anti vaccine/government/science/mainstream views read by every parent who types vaccine side effects into google.
      Yet funding expensive research and the thousands of hours of work that goes into debunking the misinformation spread far and wide is incredibly hard and takes many years.
      Researchers are still publishing journal articles refuting the MMR vaccine autism swindle 13 years later (12 patients is not even close to being a comprehensive study, and one study has never been definitive anyway)
      Smallpox was a horrible disease (look at some pics!) spread across the world for millennia , vaccines completely wiped it out in 30 years and now it only exists in a few highly quarantined research labs worldwide (scheduled for complete destruction in the next few years), many other debilitating diseases could be easily wiped out by vaccines were it not for religious views and know it all parents from Byron bay.
      Parents are getting more selfish and self absorbed by the day, you can’t legislate against self righteous stupidity so proper marketing is most likely the only answer.

    • Magic says:

      01:54pm | 31/05/11

      Many of these ‘horrible’ disease were already in rapid decline BEFORE wide-spread mass-vaccinations… 

      http://www.scribd.com/doc/25951132/Carl-Scully-Vaccination-Report

      Everyone on both sides are so emotionally… doctors talking about Champagne socialist (negative connotation)... anti-vaccination brigade hysterical about the risks etc.  Most doctors don’t have a clue about the facts… this says something about the level or indoctrination and evangelical tone the entire debate has taken on.  Everyone needs to calm down.  Its an individuals choice and should be made on the best information available not scare tactics from either side (although one side stands to profit hugely from their scare campaign.. not sure about the other).

    • marley says:

      03:09pm | 31/05/11

      @Magic - if you look at your graph, it indicates that the mortality rate was in decline.  That’s true, because we developed various drugs to treat the side effects of many of these diseases so more children survived.  But, and this is the point, the diseases themselves were not in decline - the incidence of measles was as high in 1970 as in 1870 - it just killed fewer children.  But if you think it’s a good idea to allow your child to be exposed to a disease which has a 1 in 1000 chance of killing him even in this day and age, well, you’re a bigger risk taker than I.

    • lm says:

      03:10pm | 31/05/11

      @Magic - the graph that you have linked to describes mortality, not morbidity.  So, DEATHS were in decline, but was incidence of disease?  Naturally there were also advances in medicine that may have helped prevent fatalities - but even 1 fatality is one too many, surely?

    • marley says:

      04:20pm | 31/05/11

      @vaccination con - you claimed above to come from a medical family.  I call b*s* on that.  Anyone with any sort of medical training understands that vaccines do not interfere with the immune system, they stimulate it.  You get a vaccination, and it gives you the blueprint for your system to develop antibodies against a particular disease.  You can get the same antibodies naturally, of course, by getting the disease itself.  Let’s see now, sore arm for a few hours from a shot, or measles, with a 1 in 1000 chance of getting encephalitis?  I go for the vaccine any and every time, and so does anyone with any knowledge at all of the science that underlies it, or of the statistics showing just how effective vaccines are, and how low risk.

    • lm says:

      04:46pm | 31/05/11

      @vaccination con…with regards to immunising pets.  There is really no correlation - the AVA and APVMA, as well as the WSAVA are not saying that vaccination is dangerous, simply that it is not NECESSARY to do it annually as is the current habit - the DOI (duration of immunity) does not warrant it for LOW-RISK animals (which depends on lifestyle and geographical factors).  The reported adverse events for vaccination in Australia for companion animals are extremely low (about 1 in 10,000 - and this is for ALL adverse reactions, not just serious ones). It is simply about risk/benefit analysis, nothing more.

    • RyaN says:

      04:53pm | 31/05/11

      @Mitchell: yeah, like the Black Plague was wiped out permanently by vaccinations.. wait hold on!

    • marley says:

      07:45pm | 31/05/11

      @Ryan - not sure what your point is but, if you’re talking about bubonic plague, and you think it doesn’t exist anymore, well, you’re wrong. It does - outbreaks in India and China in the last ten years make that clear.  But these days, thanks to modern medicine, it’s treatable with antibiotics.

    • rb says:

      08:31am | 31/05/11

      @ Bec
      why is it when you get sick it is somebody elses fault, why were you not up to date with your vaccinations.
      Maybe like most adults you had no idea that communicable diseases spread quickly through the un- vaccinated ADULT population. Do the majority of the adult population even know they are not covered. Vacc last maybe 10yrs at best.
      If Aust is to be a vacc state it needs to include the whole population.

    • bella starkey says:

      08:56am | 31/05/11

      True that, rb.

      A friend of mine got whooping cough and when I told people at work they were all “yeah those people not getting thier kids vaccinated” rather than “when was the last time she had her dtp booster?”

      Yes parents should have thier children vaccinated, but adults should have the good sense to have themselves done too. If you go near a newborn and don’t have your booster shots up to date you are just as irresponsible as an anti-vax parent.

    • marley says:

      09:19am | 31/05/11

      I think an awful lot of adults simply forget about the importance of vaccination.  We don’t see cases of polio or measles much these days, so we tend to think we’re not at risk.  Most of usdon’t realize that the whooping cough vaccination in particular has a short period of efficacy - it starts to lose its effectiveness after four or five years.  I am up to date with my booster shots, but I wonder how many adult Australians could say the same.

    • rb says:

      11:58am | 31/05/11

      @ marley
      I don’t think it is as simple as forgetting about booster shots. I think there is a lack of understanding about how vaccs work. There is blind faith that ‘I had vaccs as a kid and everything will be ok’.

      Not everyone who has a vacc will develop an immunity and there is no followup to check.

      Vaccs don’t last forever.

      Herd immunity only works if the whole population is covered. In Aust only children are routinely vacc. That leaves the majority of the population to carry and spread disease.

    • marley says:

      01:15pm | 31/05/11

      @rb - I think we’re saying the same thing in two different ways. I understand how vaccines work, and the importance of keeping up to date (although I must confess I didn’t realize how short-term the pertussis vaccine was).  I think an awful lot of people are very complacent about the issue because they have no memory of measles, mumps, polio sweeping through the population.  I do.  That’s why my shots are up to date.

    • Jackie says:

      03:07pm | 31/05/11

      perhaps a good way to get more adults to update their vac is to give it away to parents when they bring in their baby for their first shot?

    • Suzanne says:

      04:06pm | 31/05/11

      @Jackie…they do. When I took my daughter for her first vaccines I was offered the pertussis booster, and it’s free too.

    • Jackie says:

      06:30pm | 31/05/11

      @Suzanne, sorry, I didnt know that, they must have changed that since I had mine. I wonder what the take up is?

    • bec says:

      06:36pm | 31/05/11

      Easy to say - complacency. In my case, it was the one disease I overlooked. On all other diseases, I am pretty fastidious about getting vaccinated (including chickenpox, which I’ve had already).

      In my case, though, this student infected not only me, but fourteen of his classmates - and the infant sibling of another boy who was too young to be vaccinated.

    • Cloud Strife says:

      08:42am | 31/05/11

      When I was a small kid, I was really, really sick and almost died. I was pumped full of antibiotics to keep me alive, but the consequence of that is that my natural immune system never got a chance to do it’s job. I catch *everything*.

      If you don’t vax your kids, you’re an idiot. And if I catch something from them (and I will), I will come to your house and you can look after my sooky, sick, grumpy self.

    • katie says:

      03:18pm | 31/05/11

      perhaps time to build your immune system up then, it is possible!! just don’t have any more antibiotics & vaccinations, eat healthily and take herbal supplements. then you won’t catch “everything” and keep blaming it on the aware, questioning individuals who decide to have healthy , unvaccinated children.

    • marley says:

      04:12pm | 31/05/11

      @katie - you can eat every herbal supplement known to man, and if measles comes back and you’re not vaccinated, you’re going to catch it.  Simple as that.  Your healthy lifestyle improves your chance of survival, and that’s about it.  By the way, the absolute best way to build up your immune system is to have vaccinations - because, guess what, vaccinations stimulate the immune system.  That’s their whole purpose.

    • huckstep says:

      08:46am | 31/05/11

      Guess what. I dont vaccinate and my kids are the healthiest of any I know. Same goes for others I know who dodge these jabs that the government pays parents to take. Anyone who starts doing research, at the AVN or not, finds out quickly that typical GPs know very little, they also get paid to perform the jabs - as do parents.
      You also discover that dangerous, even fatal, reactions to to childhood vaccinations are so common that the US has a fund set up to compensate parents whose kids are killed or permanently damaged by the drugs injected into them.
      Did you know a vaccine by Glaxo was recently pulled due to an unacceptable number of adverse reactions? There’s big pharma involved here and it annoys many that ‘educated’ masses, not just home-schooled hippies, are going to force change in this area.
      The Punch would do well to get the other side of the story.

    • Bitten says:

      09:10am | 31/05/11

      I love it when people chant ‘big pharma’. Because homeopathic and naturopathic remedies in the supermarket are free, right? No one’s making money out of the alternative wagon, are they? Just out of the goodness of their hearts…

    • Insert eye-rolling here says:

      09:20am | 31/05/11

      Citations needed for a) “these jabs that the government pays parents to take” - my pre-teens are fully vaccinated but I’ve never received a cheque, and b) “a vaccine by Glaxo was recently pulled due to an unacceptable number of adverse reactions” - what vaccine? When? Did you get that information from a reputable news site or a rabid anti-vac site? Or worse still, the latter masquerading as the former?

    • Suzanne says:

      09:22am | 31/05/11

      I was wondering how long it would take someone to mention “Big Pharma”. Congratulations, you’re a winner, your tinfoil hat will be sent out to you today.

      You seem to have an issue with the government offering incentives to doctors and parents to immunise children, why is that? Do you think it’s some big conspiracy to control your child or is it more likely to be that the governemtn has realised it’s cheaper to keep preventable diseases at bay than to have a hospital full of newborns with whooping cough and measles or suffering the effects of the rubella their mother caught while she was pregnant?

      The fact that you reference the AVN is enough to discredit you compeltely in my eyes but adding that your kids are unvaxed and still healthy shows that you know little about immunology or how it works. I’m not saying I’m an expert either but I’m not arrogant or foolish enough to think that I know better than people who research it for a living.
      FYI: Your kids have been lucky, end of story. My daughter is fully vaxed and also incredibly healthy.

    • Shane says:

      09:24am | 31/05/11

      Guess what? You’re risking the lives of your own kids and every kid they come into contact with. It’s called herd immunity.

      Did you know that vaccines are the most successful public health initiative in human history, and that Big Pharma’s research and development programs are the reason literally millions of people are still alive today…

      Your arrogance and willingness to subscribe to renegade theories is very very worrying.

    • marley says:

      09:27am | 31/05/11

      The AVN doesn’t do research, it just collects anecdotes.  Show me a peer-reviewed piece of research from them, or indeed from any anti-vax organization - you won’t find one.

      As for the US compensation fund - do you know why it exists?  It’s well established that vaccinations, like any medication, can have side effects - mostly they’re benign, but in rare cases, they can be dangerous.  However, if the risk from the vaccine is less than the risk from the disease itself, then large-scale vaccination is a major public health benefit.  The compensation scheme exists to compensate that minority of children who react badly to the vaccination.  The alternative is to not have vaccinations at all, and have far more children reacting far more badly to the disease. 

      Look at it this way:  is it better to have your child take a measles vaccine with a 1 in 100,000 chance of a severe reaction, or catch the measles, with a 1 in 10 chance of a severe reaction?  My guess is, you’re not nearly as educated on this subject as you think you are.

      And I hope your kids have the common sense to get vaccinations in the event they ever decide to leave Australia.  Here, they benefit from herd immunity;  in India or Indonesia, not so much.

    • bella starkey says:

      09:27am | 31/05/11

      Don’t worry, just another AVN nutjob.
      i thought they were getting shut down by the health department or something.

    • Gamer says:

      09:29am | 31/05/11

      I’m going to give you a challenge, huckstep. Find me 10 peer reviewed, non-discredited studies supporting your claims. And I don’t mean correlation studies, unless they can be backed up with proper science.

    • Dep says:

      09:30am | 31/05/11

      @huckstep, if you’d done adequate research you’d understand three things:

      1: How vaccines actually work and therefore…
      2: How many hundreds of thousands of lives they’ve saved and finally…
      3: The number of lives disadvantaged by vaccination is miniscule in comparrison to the lives saved.

      Anyone who believes vaccination is a bad idea need only read up on the near erradication of small pox to appreciate it’s importance.

    • Tom says:

      10:04am | 31/05/11

      I don’t know where to start with you, huckstep. Riddle me this - do you ever wonder why you don’t see kids getting polio, measles, mumps, tetanus, or whooping cough (until the recent spate of anti - vaccination nonsense) these days? And what parents get paid to vaccinate their children? Of course doctors get paid to vaccinate children - it is their job, most people I know get paid to do their jobs. If you are implying they receive kickbacks from drug companies, that is news to me; my mother is a doctor and our family is still eagerly awaiting these kickbacks.

      Like any drug, vaccinations unfortunately have side effects. All drugs have side effects. Unfortunately some will die from these. The diseases prevented by vaccination have had a much larger death toll than the vaccinations.

      The Glaxo case you mention hardly ranks as a negative in my opinion - the risks of the vaccine were demonstrated to exceed its benefit, and it was subsequently pulled off the market.

      The two points at which you fail most obviously here are where you claim your kids are the healthiest of any you know, and where you reference the AVN. Do you have any evidence that your kids are healthier than average, and that it is related to your refusal to vaccinate? I wonder how they would go after a dose of polio. Basically all that can be drawn from this is that they have had the dumb luck not to get infected with any disease for which there is a vaccine. Finally, the misrepresentations, pseudoscience and outright fraud perpetuated by the AVN is well known, and to claim them as anything but a laughing stock is absurd.

    • Luce says:

      10:37am | 31/05/11

      huckstep, you do realize that part of the reason your children haven’t caught any of the communicable diseases that they aren’t vaccinated for is because the majority of other children ARE vaccinated??

      What annoys me is that people like you insist on increasing the risk for your own and everyone else’s children because of your unfounded ideological beliefs, meanwhile chanting that your position is superior because you’re riding the benefit of other people’s actions. If everyone took the same path you are, we’d essentially be back in the middle ages with easily preventable diseases running rife in the community purely because of the self righteousness of people such as yourself.

      Seriously. Get off your high horse and take a proper look around.

    • Red says:

      10:46am | 31/05/11

      Your kids might be fine, but what about the people who catch whatever disease your kids haven’t been immunised against because your kids can carry diseases without displaying any symptoms?

      Some people can’t be immunised because of allergies or other valid medical reasons and by not vaccinating children because of ‘moral’ reasons you’re basically saying that your right to make whatever decisions you like are more important than the lives of other children.

      I’m all for personal choice, but I also think personal responsibility should go right along with it; are you going to comfort the parents of a child who died from a disease that could be eradicated with a little community cooperation?

    • skepdad says:

      10:55am | 31/05/11

      Find a picture of a child who died of polio and stick it on your fridge, huckstep.  Remind yourself every day that it was the fault of people just like you.

    • NicoleG says:

      11:01am | 31/05/11

      Irresponsible idiot!!

    • huckstep says:

      11:13am | 31/05/11

      Some citations
      1.  National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act - [Wikipedia] http://bit.ly/kragcl - Why is there not one in Australia? Our children, if injured, have little recourse.
      2. Regulator quizzes GSK on vaccine contamination | Reuters http://reut.rs/msuJAs and http://bit.ly/kdYbjQ [CNN]
      3. GPs paid to administer jabs. General Practice Immunisation Incentive (GPII) - [Medicare] http://bit.ly/ipCgza & claims by doctors rates of immunisation will fall if their payments are removed http://bit.ly/jzLNlo [Medical Observer]
      4. Aust. parents get payments for shots http://bit.ly/kxw2zS [Medicare]

      Other points
      I am making educated, considered choices for my children. Have you made educated decisions? Because most GPs will only offer a brochure if you enquire, and it offers little in the way of peer-reviewed evidence (what you expect of skeptics).
      While I am not getting Whooping Cough or particular other shots for my kids, others I am ok with. The efficacy of the current Pertussis vaccine is very open to question. http://bit.ly/mwn4ap [UNSW]
      The combining of vaccines also increases chance of harm and clouds research. Our govt makes it very difficult to get separate shots.
      A large and growing number of Australians have distrust for medical science as we are not healthier than ever before. I’m told there are more visits by Australians to alternative/complimentary therapies than there are to GPs. No citation. Cop it. But Complementary/alternative medicine (CAM) is here to stay and its fans should not be brushed off with labels like ‘alternatives’. http://bit.ly/lP3ErM [CTCPJournal]

    • St. Michael says:

      11:13am | 31/05/11

      “Anyone who starts doing research, at the AVN or not, finds out quickly that typical GPs know very little, they also get paid to perform the jabs - as do parents.”

      What, you mean like doing your research at the CDC, being the body that deals with vaccine-available diseases of this kind across a 200-million-strong population and has specific reporting bodies set up to cover adverse reactions?  One that’s not connected with pharamceutical companies because it’s, y’know, government?

      CDC has found one verifiable case of an adverse reaction to the MMR vaccine.  That did not result in death.  That’s it.

      And since you don’t have the guts to publish your sources, I’ll publish mine, derived from the CDC: http://www.quackwatch.org/03HealthPromotion/immu/immu04.html

      No chance of death from MMR, and none proven from DTP.

      And as for the halfwits who think vaccines aren’t necessary or haven’t done any good, some stats from the same site:

      Diphtheria
      Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 175,885
      Cases in 2003: 1
      Decrease in cases per year:  99.9%

      Hib (<5 yrs old)
      Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 20,000 (estimate)
      Cases in 2003: 259
      Decrease in cases per year:  98.8%

      Measles
      Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 503,282
      Cases in 2003: 56
      Decrease in cases per year:  99.9%

      Mumps
      Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 152,209
      Cases in 2003: 231
      Decrease in cases per year:  99.9%

      Pertussis (whooping cough)
      Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 147,271
      Cases in 2003: 11,647
      Decrease in cases per year:  92.1%

      Polio (paralytic)
      Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 16,316
      Cases in 2003: 0
      Decrease in cases per year:  100.0%

      Rubella
      Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 47,745
      Cases in 2003: 7
      Decrease in cases per year:  99.9%

      Smallpox
      Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 48,164
      Cases in 2003: 0
      Decrease in cases per year:  100.0%

      Tetanus
      Cases per year (average) before vaccines: 1,314
      Cases in 2003: 20
      Decrease in cases per year:  98.5%

      Sorry, huckstep, but you got your userid wrong.  It should’ve been huckster.

    • Mathias says:

      11:26am | 31/05/11

      Do you have any pets? are they vaccinated?

    • Luce says:

      11:44am | 31/05/11

      huckstep, you only have to head to google to find peer reviewed evidence for the benefit of vaccines. However its distinctly harder to find peer reviewed evidence for the benefit of non-vaccination. Coincidence I wonder?

      As for alternative therapies, the only reason they are called “alternative” is because there’s no scientific evidence for them. If there was, they’d would be part of mainstream medicine. Another coincidence I wonder?

      Don’t let yourself get so overtaken by conspiracy theory, and dragged away from reason.

    • James In Footscray says:

      11:46am | 31/05/11

      Guess what. I haven’t had a flu injection and I didn’t get the flu. Cat got your tongue, eh, big pharma!

    • St. Michael says:

      11:52am | 31/05/11

      @ huckstep:

      “The efficacy of the current Pertussis vaccine is very open to question. http://bit.ly/mwn4ap [UNSW] “

      You do realise the study you linked to is effectively about new strains of pertussis emerging, not that vaccination is bad?
      Own goal, huckster.

    • Suzanne says:

      11:54am | 31/05/11

      ” But Complementary/alternative medicine (CAM) is here to stay and its fans should not be brushed off with labels like ‘alternatives’.”

      No, tehy should be brushed off with labels like “gullible fools” and “easily swindled”.
      Who do you think produces all the ‘alternative’ medicines? Big Pharma!
      Who do you think benefits everytime you buy your homeopathic magic-memory-water-so-diluted-it-has-no-active-ingredient remedies? Big Pharma!
      Big Pharma loves alternative remedies…they make a fortune without having to do any research or provide any proof of efficacy or comply with any regulations.

      Oh and…“we’re not healthier than ever before”...
      Are you serious?

      Take a look at some third world countries and compare the health of their children with yours. Compare their life expectancy with yours and tell me who’s healthier?

      And yes, I have done the research on vaccinations and I decided the risks were so small they were vastly outweighed by the benefits.When I say ‘research’ I mean I looked at the side effects of the disease and compared them to the possible side effects of the vaccine. I’m not an immunologistbut I have friends who are doctors and nurses who vaccinate and I trust their judgement.

      I’m always amused at the way anti-vaxers like to portray themselves as more caring and better parents because they’ve read a few misinformed websites and decided they’re now ‘educated’ enough to not vaccinate their children.
      It’s funny how it’s nearly always a luxury enjoyed by western middle-class parents though.

    • St. Michael says:

      11:55am | 31/05/11

      @ huckstep:

      Oh, and as to your promotion of “alternative” medicine: http://www.quackwatch.org/01QuackeryRelatedTopics/altwary.html

      You know what they call proven, alternative medicine that works? Medicine.

      Complementary medicine is also a weaselword, since complementary means it complements—assists—conventional medicine.  It is not a replacement, genius.

    • Shane says:

      11:56am | 31/05/11

      St Michael you are indeed a saint! I was looking for a short and succinct summary of that info. You did the hard yards for me. Thanks!

      Huckstep, at some point you will have a twang of doubt in your own self-assuredness, and when that twang hits, I want you to read the numbers posted by St Michael.

      “Yeah but that could be put down to improved hygiene and nutrition…”

      Really? 99 - 100% improvement because we decided to wash our hands and eat our vegetables? That really draws a long bow.

      By the way, Huckstep, I was cured of flu recently by homeopathic medicine. You see, I took 200C duck liver. That’s right. Oscillococcinum worked for me. You see, I took a few doses, then sat down to figure out the amount of water it would have required for the company producing the Oscillococcinum to actually dilute Duck liver to 200C. Eventually it became clear that in order for my dose of Oscillococcinum to be produced, the company would have had to use more water than there is in the Pacific Ocean.

      Of course, once I had finished laughing (nearly three weeks later) my flu had disappeared!

    • St. Michael says:

      12:31pm | 31/05/11

      @ James in Footscray:

      “Guess what. I haven’t had a flu injection and I didn’t get the flu. Cat got your tongue, eh, big pharma!”

      There’s five empty chambers in the gun when you play Russian Roulette, y’know.  Is it still a game you’d like to play?

    • DrFitzBob says:

      12:37pm | 31/05/11

      Oh, Huckstep, you noodle ... “A large and growing number of Australians have distrust for medical science as we are not healthier than ever before. I’m told there are more visits by Australians to alternative/complimentary therapies than there are to GPs. No citation. Cop it.” Yeah, I’ll cop that - the first part follows logically from the second.

    • St. Michael says:

      12:39pm | 31/05/11

      @ Shane: Cheers, but it’s Quackwatch’s numbers as per the CDC, not mine.  Although:

      ““Yeah but that could be put down to improved hygiene and nutrition…”

      Really? 99 - 100% improvement because we decided to wash our hands and eat our vegetables? That really draws a long bow.”

      It is.  Consider the measles rate before and after the vaccine was created in 1963: http://www.quackwatch.org/03HealthPromotion/immu/immu01.html

      I doubt JFK was sleeping on dirty hay with his dogs in the White House the night before he got shot.  So washing your hands and better public hygiene probably isn’t the reason for this disease’s drop in occurrence.  The scarier part, on that same page, is the notation that when pertussis vaccinations go down—the same disease huckster seems to think has an ineffective vaccine—you get pertussis epidemics, regardless of public hygiene.  Who’da thought that, huh?

    • Bitten says:

      01:38pm | 31/05/11

      Sadly, despite years of research and millions of cases of intelligent people restraining themselves, there is no cure for stupidity.

      This Friday is National Idiot Day. Show you care. Let an idiot say something stupid to you. Then punch them in the face. Hard.

      *Disclaimer: to prevent spread of stupidity, ensure you wear protective clothing, so that no stupid splashes on you.

    • Marianne says:

      01:45pm | 31/05/11

      At last one person with some realistic logical educated comments.

    • James1 says:

      01:52pm | 31/05/11

      “A large and growing number of Australians have distrust for medical science as we are not healthier than ever before.”

      How can we reason with you about this, when you make such statements?  Do you really believe this to be the case, huckstep?  All the indicators show that we are, in fact, healthier than ever before.  Infant and child mortality is down, life expectancy is up.  What indicators are you using that show we are worse off for having discovered how to avoid measles, smallpox and polio?

    • Annette Bannon says:

      02:47pm | 31/05/11

      The AVN is an anti-vaccination site not a site to get information about vaccination ,as it is not mean’t for that, it is a cult site for those who wish not to vaccinate.
      Congrats for your comments on your children being the heathiest you know, as all anti-vaxx’s make these claims, that their children are the biggest, strongest, brightest, tallest & can walk through brick walls!.
      Because your children are healthy is meaningless…...I want to know how they are AFTER being exposed to a vaccine preventable disease.
      The vaccine court, in the USA (suprise, suprise), is not what you suggest ( I will let you google that one). And if Big Pharma relied only on vaccines for their profits, they wouldn’t make much!

    • James In Footscray says:

      03:15pm | 31/05/11

      @ St Michael

      I was trying to be ironic but obviously it didn’t work! wink

    • St. Michael says:

      03:43pm | 31/05/11

      @ James in Footscray: I’m sorry, we here in Saintland do not have a sense of humour that we’re aware of. :D

    • LC says:

      03:55pm | 31/05/11

      @Bella,

      They only have to put a disclaimer on their webpage that says they do not give accurate medical advice, they aren’t getting shut down (unfortunately).

    • Andrew says:

      04:21pm | 31/05/11

      Fantastic troll huckstep, well done.

    • Janey says:

      10:49am | 01/06/11

      Your kids probably are the healthiest kids you know.
      Until they catch a deadly disease.
      The doctors are paid to vaccinate children, but they are paid by the government to administer the child vaccination schedule.
      They are not paid by pharmaceutical companies.
      Please provide evidence that parents are paid to have their children vaccinated by anyone.
      Which vaccine by Glaxo was recently pulled?  Evidence please.

    • Sick of This says:

      08:57am | 31/05/11

      Last year, a woman who had her kids in my cousin’s soccer team (kids were all around 6 years of age) said she refused to vaccinate her kids. She had 3. Sure enough the little disease ridden buggars who came along to soccer every weekend passed on whooping cough and another mother whose son was in our soccer team had a newborn who caught whooping cough and died. The mother who didn’t believe in vaccination didn’t even have the grace to look ashamed. People who do not vaccinate their kids are bad parents and frankly, its a form of child abuse. They should be criminally liable where their actions by not vaccinating their kids cause the death or severe illness of others.

    • Mikeymike says:

      03:22pm | 31/05/11

      Child abuse.  Criminally liable.  Yep.  I’d agree with that.  I would suggest that if the disease strains could be proven to have come from the negligent mother’s kids, there would be a lawsuit coming.  Hell of a long shot, but worth it to scare the anti vaxers.

      I’m surprised your cousin let his/her kids go after you found that out.

      I used to think that so long as you kept away from them, morons could only harm themselves.

    • SickofIt says:

      09:24am | 31/05/11

      I live in one of these high risk areas, and let me tell you, the objections of a few cause a whole lot of pain for a whole lot more people.

      Whooping cough is no mere cold. It is nasty and painful, and a real scare for any adults who have any contact with small babies. I kept my newborn at home while people I knew contracted whooping cough and were laid up for weeks. This didn’t have to happen. It’s preventable by a simple jab.

      Yes, your children might be the healthiest of any you know, but you are potentially the carriers of death and disease for others.

      The fact remains that if a measles carrier turns up to school, 100% of the unvaccinated will contract it. It is *that* infectious. Measles can cause encephalitis and death.

      Whooping cough is painful in adults, but deadly in children. There are those adults who remember well the caliper-clad children who had gotten away with their lives after a bout of polio. Diptheria still kills in third world countries.

      While most of the population is vaccinated, you enjoy the protection brought by our goodwill, to the point that the chance of contracting a disease drops to being within reach of the low probability of an adverse reaction. But it doesn’t take many objectors to allow diseases back in. I wonder how long the objectors will hold out when there’s a measles outbreak, or when (God forbid) one of the “healthiest children I know” contract Rubella when pregnant, leading to a blind and deaf baby like my uncle.

      The reason these vaccinations exist is because the disease is worse than the cure. Simple as that.

    • James Ricketson says:

      09:29am | 31/05/11

      Huckstep, the fact that you have healthy unvaccinated kids says nothing about the value or otherwise of vaccinations - no more so than an 80 year old two-pack-a-day smoker’s lack of lung cancer says anything about the connection between smkoing and cancer.

      If you are genuinely interested in ‘the other side of the story’, read BAD SCIENCE by Ben Goldacre, described by one reviewer as “A brilliant book that debunks medical nonsense.” It is a good read and lots of fun.

    • marley says:

      09:59am | 31/05/11

      Actually, what it says about her kids is that they’ve been protected (so far) by all the vaccinated kids around them - they have very little chance of being exposed to an infectious disease because infectious diseases can’t spread within a highly vaccinated population.  However, let the vaccination rates drop, and a carrier arrive from overseas, and you can be damn sure her kids won’t be so healthy.

    • Suzanne says:

      10:05am | 31/05/11

      Agreed, it’s an excellent book for clearing up medical myths. Anytime I hear someone going on about the benefits of homeopathy or anti-vaxing I recommend they read it.

    • Suzanne says:

      10:13am | 31/05/11

      And they’re screwed if they ever decide to travel overseas when they’re older. A week in India or Africa (where mothers would give anything to be able to vaccinate their children, never mind get paid for it too!) and their unvaccinated immune systems will be buggered.

    • Q says:

      09:58am | 31/05/11

      The previous generation vaccinated their children because they saw first-hand the terrible results of these diseases.  Many remember Polio and German Measles and didn’t want their children to suffer.  Unfortunately this generation of parents has not seen the devestation that these diseases can have so do not fully understand the possible outcomes.  We believe that we are enlightened because we have information available at the click of a mouse.  There are some things that information cannot tell you but real experience can, you have to ask yourself are you willing to accept the risk to not only your child but your future grandchildren.

    • Pete says:

      10:45am | 31/05/11

      So, how many of you are parents of teenage girls who have been vaccinated against HPV (75% uptake) It should have been 100%  Cervical Cancer is a horrible disease. 

      Did you know because of the HPV vaccine there has been a flow on effect in heterosexual males(males were not vaccinated) with a significant drop in the incidence of HPV among this group as well, but not in homosexual males.  All children should have been vaccinated

      The biggest Danger now is that young women think that they are bullet proof and dont think they need to participate in Cervical Screening Programs.  WRONG, the Vaccine will only protect you against the 4 most common HPV’s there are over 100 types. 
      Tell your girls to screen. The nastiest and most aggresive cervical cancers usually occur unnoticed in women who don’t screen

    • seniorcynic says:

      10:46am | 31/05/11

      I have been having flu injections for 7 years now paid for by my employer and wondered if they were really worthwhile. Last year my unvaccinated partner caught the flu and I didn’t even get a sniffle.

    • St. Michael says:

      11:59am | 31/05/11

      The Punch really needs a tongue-in-cheek button.

    • Harry says:

      11:13am | 31/05/11

      We get offered free vaccinations in our office. Unfortunately it’s only for swine flu, nothing else.

    • Luce says:

      11:39am | 31/05/11

      Anti-vaxxers are a perfect example of conspiracy theory overtaking reason, and it scares the hell out of me.

      They unnecessarily increase the risk for everyone else because of their self righteous and unfounded views, and then have the gall to claim their kids are healthy as a direct result of non-vaccination, when in actual fact their kids are riding the benefit of other people’s willingness TO vaccinate, and as a result have not been exposed to the disease. Do they understand what would happen if EVERYONE did the same as them??

      Seriously people, WAKE UP!

    • rb says:

      12:30pm | 31/05/11

      @ luce
      how does it increase the risk to you. You’ve been vacc and have regular booster shots yourself. You’re covered right?

    • emel says:

      12:38pm | 31/05/11

      Exactly.
      This reminds me of the union movement.
      Some pay dues - we all get the pay increase.

    • marley says:

      01:21pm | 31/05/11

      @rb - no vaccination is 100% effective.  There’s a failure rate of around 5% with a lot of them.  And there are some people with autoimmune disorders who cannot be vaccinated.  Your decision not to vaccinate allows disease to spread to those who either couldn’t be vaccinated or whose vaccination didn’t work.  That’s the problem.

    • rb says:

      12:10pm | 31/05/11

      While everyone is taking aim at parent who have decided not to vacc and the misinformation out there we should be questioning the lack of understanding about vacc.
      Aust has an unvacc adult population. How did this happen? Is everyone on here fully vaccinated. Up to date with boosters. I’m thinking some of you might be a little bit hypocritical.

    • Mathias says:

      12:40pm | 31/05/11

      To be honest with you, aside from yearly flu vacc, I don’t think (or can’t remember) being vaccinated against anything else since being a child… Didn’t even know I was supposed to as an adult.

    • Suzanne says:

      12:40pm | 31/05/11

      Yes, I am.
      Before I got pregnant I went to my gp and told her of our plans to start a family and she recommended getting my boosters up to date, so I did.
      Given the amount of anti-vax nutters around I didn’t want to take any chances with rubella while I was pregnant or whooping cough with a newborn.

    • St. Michael says:

      12:40pm | 31/05/11

      Unvaccinated against what conditions, rb?

      Pertussis, I grant you, needs a booster, as does Hep B.  But most of the other vaccinable diseases are permanent protection from early childhood.  Fair call, though, that people do need to be aware that some vaccines don’t offer lifetime protection and need boosters.

    • marley says:

      01:25pm | 31/05/11

      @St Michael - it’s my understanding that, if you had the two shot measles vaccine, you’re good to go, but if you only had one, you should get a booster.  The combo pertussis, diptheria, polio, tetanus shot is good for 10 years (but it’s still a good idea to get a tetanus booster if stab yourself with a garden tool, as I managed to do recently).  Other shots - hep A and B are good for life, I believe.  And then there are the shots you should have if heading off to exotic climes - typhoid, cholera, yellow fever…

    • Jim says:

      12:24pm | 31/05/11

      The chardy sipping alternates have many things to answer for…anti-vaxxing just one of them. But it’s not exclusive to that particular breed of squeezer…a female acquaintence of mine, whom I’ve known for over 13 years, recently had 2 children. They’re both shits of kids to be honest…but being who she was she refused to be a parent and teach them right from wrong, instead she went looking for excuses in various parenting books and websites. Every excuse for poor behaviour was rolled out, using funky latte-set terms like ‘sleep association’...ADHD was considered I’m sure (another 90’s invention to give bad parenting an excuse). Now she is on a campaign against vaccinations…claiming the vaccs made her kids naughty and uncontrollable, so she stopped doing them.

      She cannot face up to the fact that she has sooky kids and she should not have been allowed to breed.

      We are no longer friends, but I hope that when her little darlings pass on a disease to someone she gets her arse sued off her!

    • Macon Paine says:

      12:42pm | 31/05/11

      “That these highly educated people think the Australian Vaccination Network and its ilk are a better source of information than the authorities is a fairly embarrassing indictment on our dear leaders.”

      Perhaps, although I’d say its a fairly embarrasing indictment on these so-called “highly educated” people. These people may be highly educated but they clearly aren’t as intelligent as their education would suggest.

      Vaccination is Darwinism at work. Those who vaccinate are the ones who will have a higher chance of survival and of passing on their genes, the ones who don’t wont.

    • Keda says:

      12:50pm | 31/05/11

      I believe that parents want to do what’s best for their kids (I do!) and the anti-vax pseudo-science has a lot of scientific-looking sites devoted to it’s arguments. Scientists, doctors and pro-vax public need to write our side of the story. My 5 week old nearly died of Whooping Cough, and I wrote my side here: http://kedakeda.blogspot.com/2011/03/yes-i-did-choose-to-vaccinate-my-kids.html

    • rb says:

      01:26pm | 31/05/11

      I also think that doctors are not testing for pertussis quickly enough. Someone I knew had been to the dr’s twice before about a persistant cough they couldn’t shake. 3rd visit and a swab taken. Too late for the antibiotics to be of any help and the whole 3 weeks spent out in public.

    • Mark says:

      01:28pm | 31/05/11

      The goverment lies to us all the time. The loonies are wrong but are not lying. Therefore it is not surprising that some gullilble people of certain mind sets believe the loonies.

      But the government does have the power to do something it. The powers useable by minsters under public health acts are more then sufficent for them to order vaccination by force.

      Gutless lying wonders are endangering us all by allowing the loonies have their way.

    • Ken McLeod says:

      01:57pm | 31/05/11

      A Facebook group has been working for 2 years to put an end to the dishonest propaganda being pushed by the so-called “Australian Vaccination Network” and its occasional President, Ms Meryl Dorey.  We now number around 1800 doctors, nurses, scientists, medical students, and concerned parents and grandparents, and have had several successes.

      Find us at https://www.facebook.com/stopavn#!/stopavn?sk=info

    • Realist says:

      02:53pm | 31/05/11

      You really should have included this fantastic video about vaccination vs anti-vaccination on your article: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RfdZTZQvuCo

      The few swear words in it are totally justifiable in arguing against the stupidity of anti-vaccination.

    • Abbie says:

      03:08pm | 31/05/11

      My hippie mother decided back in the late 60’s that vaccination was a whole lot of unnecessary chemicals that were being pumped into children. So when I came along early 70’s wasn’t vaccinated. My father wasn’t to happy about this but went along with it until my twin sisters were born. He took them to get their shots without my mums knowledge.
      When I was 9 I got the measles. I ended up in hospital for 3 weeks, I also contracted pneumonia. After being in hospital I spent another month at home before I was well enough to go even go outside to play. I ended up missing 3 months of school. It was really scary and painful.
      Oddly enough my sisters never caught the measles from me. My mother would say I was just unlucky and that the vaccination wouldn’t have made a difference as my sisters weren’t vaccinated and they didn’t get sick. Thus she was right all along. After a year of hearing my mum say these things, my dad let her know that he had had the twins vaccinated without her knowledge. She left him and us a week later to live in a hippy compound near Bega.
      Needless to say I have vaccinated my own children.

    • Luce says:

      04:07pm | 31/05/11

      Abbie, I can honestly say thats a really sad story, and I’m sorry that your mother left for such a reason.. it defies logic. However, I’m very glad you have more sense then her! Your children will no doubt be so much better off as a result

    • bikinis on top says:

      03:15pm | 31/05/11

      How do you get a small Australia and reduce Australia’s population quickly?
      Ban all vaccines,all drugs, all medecines, all health professionals and all health care right now.
      Put all health care money into wealth care now.

    • Grandcopy says:

      04:14pm | 31/05/11

      Thank you for keeping this topic in the media.

      This was a great article, until the last paragraph when you mentioned the AVN. Giving them any acknowledgement and possible noteriety is a mistake. This anti-vax organisation is already on the way down, after an incriminating report from the HCCC. I just hope they keep fading and there is no extra support or attention directed there way from this article.

    • Kassandra says:

      04:21pm | 31/05/11

      I was a medical student and junior doctor in the days when the diseases we now routinely vaccinate children for were common. I don’t believe any sane parent would willfully expose their children to the risks of those diseases if they had ever seen what they can do. In those days every childrens’ ward in hospitals had a tracheostomy tray for kids who couldn’t breathe from diptheria - cutting a hole in their throat so they could breathe was the only way to save their life. Some of the posters here, for example, seem to think that measles is not a big deal and that it’s better to get immunity “naturally” by being infected with it. Well you see just one child with measles encephalitis and then tell me you still believe that. I saw many such children. In my day at school every class had at least one child wearing calipers on their legs because of the effects of polio. I have seen smallpox which has killed God knows how many people and now it no longer exists thanks to vaccination. Idiots.

    • Bill says:

      05:50pm | 31/05/11

      Just join the ADF - you wll be kept fully up to date with vaccinations for diseases that you have never even heard about!

    • St. Michael says:

      11:32am | 01/06/11

      Regrettably, lead poisoning is not one of them.

    • julia says:

      11:11pm | 31/05/11

      As a parent who seriously considered not vaccinating, I think Tory’s final paragraph is hitting the nail on the head. After reading an anti-vaccination booklet that was chock-full of references to highly credible sounding medical journals, my partner and I were genuinely unsure whether we ought to vaccinate. All of the information that we had received from the govt read so much like propaganda, which patronisingly failed to mention the full picture, ie the fact that vaccination is NOT immunisation (ie, not everyone who is vaccinated will be immune from the disease) and similar important details.

      We skipped the hep B vax at the birth of our first child and when I took her for her 6 week checkup the doctor asked our intentions for the 2 month vaccinations. She was horrified when I expressed doubts and after some riffling around in the back of a cupboard, was able to locate a govt publication that was written for health providers, and addressed some of the issues frequently raised about vaccinations. It was there for the first time that we came across an honest, well-referenced discussion of the full picture about vaccinations. It acknowledged the risks and failings, and in doing so, it convinced us that the benefits outweighed these.

      The govt propoganda we were sent had totally failed to win our trust because it was so dumbed-down. If it wasn’t for this doctor, who knows what we would have decided. My partner and I are both well-educated but we are not scientists and found it very hard to evaluate one scientific sounding claim against another.

      I think to overcome suspicion and conspiracy theories, the govt and health authorities need to be less patronising and more honest - a lot of parents are willing to take the time to consider a complex issue and they want all the info, not just cherrypicking.

      When you throw in the dodgy dealings of the pharmaceutical industry (which I know about from my doctor friends), it is hardly surprising people are sceptical. I think some of the responses here branding these people as selfish, hypocritical, hippy morons are a bit harsh.

    • marley says:

      07:16am | 01/06/11

      @julia - I’m sorry, but you read an anti-vax booklet and took it at face value?  Did you bother to check out any of the quotes and see what those articles really said?  (In my experience, anti-vax publications either use highly unreliable sources or take comments completely out of context.  Just look at some of the comments above as examples).

      Did you bother to look out a pro-vax website to get the opposite view?  Or look up any health department website on the subject?  There’s scads of information out there, readily available.  If the government booklet wasn’t enough, it would have been pretty easy to delve a bit deeper.

    • St. Michael says:

      11:44am | 01/06/11

      @ julia: all due respect, but I’m amazed that being “well-educated” in your words that you hadn’t encountered the factoid that vaccines actually save lives, or the fact that some diseases like smallpox no longer exist due only to vaccination.  This is a point of basic general knowledge that is available to anyone who went through the school system or has done a modicum of reading outside of school.

      I also think, with respect, it’s a bit gutless to blame the government for your own lack of knowledge in this respect.  Should the government be to blame because it didn’t tell you how to operate a car, too?

      I don’t regard it as harsh to regard anti-vaxers as idiots and call them as I see them.  Most of the time, these people are not simply “neutrals” who have been swayed by a lack of information from the government.  They are people—like Jenny McCarthy, who has variously said her children are “crystal children” or “gifted” before locking onto the concept of “MMR = autism”—who actively engage in confirmational bias, who refuse to change their opinions despite all of the reputable scientific evidence otherwise.  Note some of the stories in this thread, where the result was certainly empirically persuasive that nonvaccination resulted in harm to people around them, and yet they still did not acknowledge it or that they’d hurt someone else.

      And then there’s AVN and their fanboys.  They’re a different kettle of fish entirely.  This is not a body of people who are just ignorantly presenting one-off studies.  This is a body of people that is engaging in hyperbole and deliberate lies in spite of all the evidence simply because they realise, like Hitler, that if you tell a lie big enough and loud enough, people will start to believe it.

      It is to our great fortune as a society that all the scientific evidence and the empirical evidence is unequivocally against their stupid ideas, because if they held sway a lot of people would die for no good reason.  I mean it.  Look into any of the diseases I nominated above, and you’ll see they *all* have a *mortality* rate.  As in, you can fucking *die* from diptheria, tetanus, or even chicken pox.

      But as someone else said, and it holds true economically as well—we are cursed with success in vaccination, because nobody’s seen what happens when you get smallpox for a good 30 years or more.  To me, it doesn’t matter: like I said above, you can try and comfort yourself that the revolver in Russian Roulette has five empty chambers and only one that’s loaded.  It’s the lethality of the one in six that matters, and why sane people don’t play Russian Roulette.

    • julia says:

      07:55pm | 01/06/11

      There are counter-arguments to those factoids you refer to, that on face value sound quite valid. You’ve missed my fundamental point - perhaps you have the ability and resources to evaluate those arguments and see them for what they are. Many people do not. My parenting career to date has been based on reading and looking for evidence, but sometimes not being a scientist makes it quite difficult. What really helped me in this case was for the govt info that I eventually found to acknowledge where some of the anti-vax info WAS correct, which it was, and then respond with further info as to why vaccination was still a preferable option overall. I’ve made the point that for me, having that much more accurate and detailed information made a real difference. I think there are other parents out there who would find it similarly useful and convincing. But dismiss me (and them) as lazy or stupid as you will. I don’t see why it’s not valid to ask for the govt to be more liberal with the truth in the material it distributes.

    • St. Michael says:

      03:41pm | 02/06/11

      “You’ve missed my fundamental point - perhaps you have the ability and resources to evaluate those arguments and see them for what they are.”

      Hang on: you are now straw manning yourself here.  You said in your own post that “My partner and I are both well-educated but we are not scientists and found it very hard to evaluate one scientific sounding claim against another.”

      My question is, again, if you’re well-educated how the hell did you manage to miss the prevailing point of view that vaccines are safe and save lives? Why are you suggesting education has left a massive vacuum on the subject?

    • julia says:

      01:12pm | 04/06/11

      St Michael - reread my posts man!
      I’m not going to repeat myself a third time.
      The only new point I will add is that when people have just become parents and are feeling incredibly overwhelmed and sleep-deprived, they may not have time to do tons of background reading or be at their best when it comes to making sense of complex arguments.
      All the more reason for the govt info that is posted to their house to be presented in a way to facilitate evaluation of the pros and cons.
      Call me ignorant, call me stupid. If I am, there are plenty more that are as bad or worse; the need for accurate info cannot be avoided.

    • rb says:

      08:36am | 01/06/11

      @ julia
      you are right on the money. The infomation provided by the government is lacking. For parents who want to ask questions of both sides this is a problem.
      @ marley
      You might be right to say that pro-vacc booklets are crap but problem is so are the governments.
      On the surface it is only a problem for parents who want to make their own informed decision but further down the line the lack of info on vacc has caused this bubble of unprotected adults.

    • marley says:

      10:36am | 01/06/11

      @rb - the pamphlet may well be crap - but it took me less than a minute to locate the National Immunization Handbook on line.  Here’s the page for the MMR vaccination:

      http://www.health.gov.au/internet/immunise/publishing.nsf/Content/Handbook-measles

      Now, if someone chooses to take the word of an anti-vax pamphlet at face value, without checking out the quoted sources, and without bothering to check out a government publication and the sources it quotes, then I regret to say, they are not actually interested in making an “informed decision.”

    • rb says:

      12:06pm | 01/06/11

      ” that family members, particularly parents, were identified as the source of infection in more than 50% of cases and were the presumed source in a higher proportion.”
      This site is a great resource, it also confirms that adults are the biggest risk of infection for pertussis.

    • marley says:

      11:10am | 01/06/11

      That child has an extremely rare mitochondrial disorder which may well have contributed to the outcome.  The same Vaccine Court has recently turned down a number of claims by other parents attempting to link their kids’ autism to vaccination.  There’s a library full of evidence debunking the link between the MMR in particular, and autism.

    • RyaN says:

      11:08am | 01/06/11

      Personally not being anti-vac but having an issue with the flagrant way that doctors ignore the recommendations given with all vaccines not to vaccinate a child within two weeks of ANY illness is what I have a major issue with.
      This is medicine and can be dangerous if not administered according to guidelines however GP’s have been led to believe there is no danger whatsoever with vaccines just like many on here.
      Personally I would never let my child be vaccinated within 2 weeks of being ill, I would never let my child have a bacterial vaccination at the same time as a viral one, and in fact would never let my child have more than one vaccination at a time without a two to three week break in between to allow the immune system to recover.
      I find it hard to accept that people can spew forth such bile and hatred claiming absolute safety.
      I also agree that the risk of the vaccine is less than the risk of the actual disease (depending on the disease).

    • Gamer says:

      11:46am | 01/06/11

      I understand about not getting vaccinated too soon after illness, but whats wrong with giving a bacterial and viral vaccine at the same time?

    • St. Michael says:

      12:45pm | 01/06/11

      “I find it hard to accept that people can spew forth such bile and hatred claiming absolute safety.”

      Straw man much?

      Although in statistical terms, for most vaccines it might as well be.  One in a million chance of an adverse reaction (MMR) is a much better risk than 1 in 100,000 risk of death from contracting measles, mumps, or rubella (Rubella actually having a 25% chance of adverse effects on a foetus, I might add.)

    • marley says:

      01:56pm | 01/06/11

      @St Mike - actually, the risk of death from measles is closer to 1 or 2 in 1000 than in 100,000 - and that’s in western societies.  I find it unimaginable that parents would take that kind of risk with their kids.

    • RyaN says:

      02:45pm | 01/06/11

      @Gamer: in short, when you are healthy, the levels of T-helper cells in your body are balanced. When you have an acute, or viral, infection, T-helper 1 cells take over and T-helper 2 cells are suppressed. When you have a chronic, or bacterial, infection, T-helper 2 takes over and the T-helper 1 cells are suppressed.

    • Fi says:

      09:06pm | 05/06/11

      Every single time I have been vaccinated, I’ve been asked if I’ve been sick in the last fortnight.

      It’s a failure of the doctor you’ve seen, not the vaccination system.

    • RyaN says:

      11:13am | 01/06/11

      I just can’t wait until they bring out a vaccine against Roseola, just like they did with chicken pox.

    • Eleanor says:

      01:58pm | 01/06/11

      Just something I’ve noticed - every flu season, there always seems to be one person in the office who claims ‘I got my flu jab and I still got sick so therefore, it doesn’t work.’

      Bear in mind, to get a flu shot you have to go to a doctor’s office; a place typically filled with sick people. It couldn’t possibly be that you picked up a cold from one of them before you got jabbed, right? And even then, there’s several different flu strains kickin’ around at any given one time.

      Just sayin’.

    • marley says:

      02:48pm | 01/06/11

      Yeah, well the flu shot is always a bit of a crap shoot - the scientists basically try to anticipate which are going to be the dominant flus in the coming season - if they get it right, you’re immune, but if they don’t get it right, you’re not.  It’s different when you are immunizing against a single, known disease like the H1N1 of a couple of years ago.  That was pretty effective.

    • RyaN says:

      02:50pm | 01/06/11

      It is not only wrong to try and pin the increase in Pertussis (whooping cough) cases on the un-vaccinated, it is also devious and plainly inciting hatred.

      There are a few studies at present that point the finger at the DTaP or acellular pertussis vaccines as opposed to whole-cell vaccines to explain why pertussis has been increasing over the past 25 years.

      Here is a recent one.. http://pediatricianinhouse.blogspot.com/2011/05/effectiveness-of-dtap-wanes.html

    • St. Michael says:

      04:11pm | 01/06/11

      I see you’ve actually started citing your references, RyaN ... or is it Ryan of your earlier successes in previous threads on this topic?

      Reading your article is amusing, though.  Particularly this passage:

      “Dr. Levine later told Medscape Medical News that whole-cell vaccines, which are still used routinely in the developing world, were unfairly attacked in the past. “We’re seeing some of the downside of getting rid of the old whole-cell vaccine,” but it’s impossible to go back to whole cell, because of its detractors who impugned the vaccine for causing severe reactions, he said.
      “It really turns out that there’s no difference between acellular and the old whole cell for those rare severe events,” he said.”

      This article is saying the watered-down version of the pertussis vaccine wanes in effectiveness over time.

      The reason the article says the watered-down version is being used, rather than the full strength (whole cell) version is because idiots jumped up and down about the supposed frequency of adverse events from the full strength version.

      The article is saying there’s no difference in frequency of adverse events between the watered-down version and the full strength version, but there’s obviously a difference in effectiveness.

      Congratulations, you just showed anti-vaccinating idiots have successfully pushed medicine into less effective medications that don’t work.

      And incidentally: it’s not wrong to pin the increase in pertussis on the un-vaccinated.  The correlation in the UK is so strong as to be suggestive of cause.  If you’ve got a real study or reference, cite it.

    • RyaN says:

      02:40pm | 02/06/11

      @St. Michael: where exactly did I state I was anti-vac? Just like you hate mongers to jump to conclusions.
      “The correlation in the UK is so strong as to be suggestive of cause. ” and has often been said to the anti-vac people, “correlation does not equal causation”.
      Similarly, spreading your misinformation, assumptions and hate in pointing fingers at the anti-vac people then “if you’ve got a real study or reference, cite it.”

    • RyaN says:

      02:45pm | 02/06/11

      @St. Michael: “Congratulations, you just showed anti-vaccinating idiots have successfully pushed medicine into less effective medications that don’t work.”
      Please explain to me how the “anti-vaccinating idiots” would have caused this, just so I can understand. Clearly if they weren’t going to vaccinate in the first place why would it matter if it was whole cell or acellular, they aren’t going to take either.  Again spreading misinformation and hatred.

    • St. Michael says:

      03:38pm | 02/06/11

      You want a citation for the suggestion that a drop in vaccinations makes pertussis rise? Here: http://www.quackwatch.org/03HealthPromotion/immu/immu01.html

      This information is from the CDC.  Read the text below the graph.  Note the date of the pertussis epidemic in the UK: 1974.  Fears about the vaccine would equate to fears about its adverse effects, and would also be before they started phasing out whole-cell vaccines for pertussis.  You are talking a sudden increase in pertussis predominantly because idiots were jumping up and down about the adverse effects of the vaccine.  If they’d had the vaccine anyway, you would not have seen a pertussis increase.

      “Please explain to me how the “anti-vaccinating idiots” would have caused this, just so I can understand. Clearly if they weren’t going to vaccinate in the first place why would it matter if it was whole cell or acellular, they aren’t going to take either.”

      Because, genius, if morons hadn’t been out there telling people the vaccine has adverse effects and discouraging vaccination as a result, more people would have been vaccinated.  The acellular vaccine is not uneffective against pertussis, it just doesn’t last as long as the whole-cell vaccine does.  Therefore an increase in pertussis is attributable to people not vaccinating against it, not because they chose acellular vs. whole cell vaccines.

      It’s not lies or misinformation, RyaN.  Only what you’re spreading has that definition.

    • RyaN says:

      04:11pm | 02/06/11

      St. Michael: “Only what you’re spreading has that definition. ” do tell exactly what I am spreading?

    • RyaN says:

      04:25pm | 02/06/11

      @St.Michael: referencing that bastion of truthiness, quackwatch doesn’t bode well with your argument mate, not to mention the complete lack of logic in their arguments “but if we were to stop vaccinating, they would come back.” yeah sure, like the smallpox vaccine which we don’t give anymore, where are the major outbreaks?
      Anyway, I won’t be the one arguing against vaccination since I do vaccinate, what I am sick to the back teeth of is you people spreading hatred towards people who make a decision (informed or not) to not vaccinate.
      How about you try nicely and lead people to make the right decisions rather than attacking them and carrying on like a complete bunch of rabid savages.

    • St. Michael says:

      11:34am | 03/06/11

      @ RyaN: “sure, like the smallpox vaccine which we don’t give anymore, where are the major outbreaks?”

      Uh, that would be because smallpox was eradicated outright.  WHO certified it.  Do you not read? And it was eradicated because of a worldwide vaccination program which, had antivaccinating morons like yourself been around, would not have succeeded.

      The same does not apply for all of the other diseases that we vaccinate against.  The only real way we have to control those diseases is to control their capacity to move through a population, which is what anti-vaccinators very stupidly hobble.

      As for what you’re spreading, it’s a four letter word: lies.

      “referencing that bastion of truthiness, quackwatch doesn’t bode well with your argument mate”

      If you can impugn its accuracy, RyaN, do so, or STFU.  Burden of proof is on antivax idiots, not on the science.

    • vb says:

      06:39pm | 01/06/11

      A more appropriate metaphor could have been chosen to compare parents rejcting the vaccine, to parents isolating their children from pedophiles.
      The recent spate of vaccine ‘incidents’ is the cause of the rejection of vaccines for children. Understandably there are certain risks with any vaccine as the time required to properly test any vaccine would exceed the time before any ‘outbreak’ hits. This is the reason a great number of vaccines are not recommended for children under certain ages and is something that needs to be considered by parents. That being said, a greater amount of quality control is required to prevent ‘bad batches’ and an unacceptable risk of side-effects. If the quality management systems were publicly reformed it may instill more confidence in the ‘chardonnay sets’ who are mostly businessmen and women which live in a culture of risk vs reward, with risks more pronounced by the media, most likely their greatest outside influence.

    • marley says:

      08:50pm | 01/06/11

      The problem with your theory is that, first, most vaccines have 20 or 30 years of tracking and are clearly safe.  The risk of disease vs risk of side effects is clearly quantified, and it doesn’t take much risk to check it out.  What parents want is a no-risk vaccine - and that will never exist.  Very low risk, yes, but no risk, no.

    • rb says:

      12:56pm | 02/06/11

      @ marley
      You would stuggle to find a vacc that has been in use for 20yrs. While the use of vaccs is nothing new the individual vaccs are constantly changing. These have to be tested with each change, But how do you test a product for children without testing on children? A calculated guess of dosage and test on children, and when reactions occur reaccess.

    • AM of Brisbane says:

      10:46pm | 03/06/11

      NSW paediatrician Dr Chris Ingall added this: “We’re appalled at how many kids are getting whooping cough because the chardonnay set and the alternatives don’t vaccinate their children”.

      What an insult. I cannot afford chardonnay, and being a truck-driver, I don’t think I am an “alternative” either.
      I am a truckie, and I don’t inject my children with toxic poison.

      NSW paediatricians, and doctors, can go jab themselves, but not my family thanks. Also, for the rest of you cattle, go rest with your herd. My belief differs from yours.
      Go jab yourselves, but don’t accuse me of being a chardonnay drinker, an alternative, or what they usually say, a “hippie”.

      Actually, I do like meditating. Is this wrong for me, being a truckie and all ..... or do you just feel as if you can control my drug intake.
      Go away you drug pushers. Push your own toxic poisons.
      And the smarty-pant who wrote the article should be ashamed of herself.
      Do some investigative journalism for once, don’t rely on your athiest and skeptic views.
      Some skeptic, who does not wonder about injecting toxic pus ... well, typical Skeptic. Certainly not a sceptic. I am a sceptic. You are a skeptic.
      HUGE DIFFERENCE. Your Skepticism is your religion. Mine is not.

    • LC says:

      10:19pm | 28/07/11

      Yes you’re free to do what you want that involves putting risks putting the health of other on the line.
      That is, you’re free to do it if and only if you and your family are living on your own in a shack in the middle of the outback, at least 50 kilometers away from another human, with a man in a bio-suit delivering your food and water.
      If you live like that, you’re perfectly in your rights to do that.
      If not, then sorry, the rights of others to be free of disease comes first.

      Herd immunity is the easiest and cheapest way to stop these diseases and it only works if 90% of people are vaccinated. The remaining 10% must ONLY be made out of those who cannot be vaccinated due to immuno-deficiency disorders and those allergic to the said vaccine (in which case it only being an interm solution until an allergy-safe version of the vaccine is made). And these people would not make up 10% of the total population anyway, maybe 4% at best. The greater the %age of people vaccinated in a community is, the better the chances that the virus/bacteria which causes it will die out, like the smallpox viruses were. And people who catch these diseases (whether it’s out of your brand of borderline-criminal negligence or because they have immune deficiencies) should be put in isolation in a hospital until they completely recover.

      And there’s also this other little thing called mutation. See, your kids could catch a preventable disease and wander through crowds of normal people without causing anyone problems, but should the bacteria/virus which causes it reach an immune host, courtesy through evolution, there’s ALWAYS a chance it could form a brand new virus or bacteria that can affect vaccinated and unvaccinated people alike, causing deaths and life-changing disabilities that with some foresight on behalf of people like you could have been prevented and wasting the medical community’s time and resources to create a vaccine and cure for this new bug. Although this would probably spell the end of the anti-vax movement for at least 60-80 years, so there’s one plus.

      So AM of Brisbane, wake up, wake the hell up, please. For the sake of everyone.

      Make parents who fail to vaccinate their child pay a BIG tax, unless they can show medically valid reasons why it cannot be done from 2 doctors, and direct at least 2/3s of the revenue collected into a safety fund to pay for research and cures for any new diseases that may emerge through mutation due to the negligence of parents like this tool. Hurt their hip pocket, maybe they’ll change their minds. With databasing programs available today, it’s not hard to keep track of these things.

 

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