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Critics of teachers should chalk in their shoes

Cheryl Critchley

by Cheryl Critchley

01 Feb 05:40am

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Filed under: Education, Schools, Teachers, Union, Wages

116 comments

How many of us take work calls at 2am? Or supervise strangers’ kids 24/7 for five days for nothing? Or block out whole weekends to write reports without overtime or time in lieu? Teachers do this and more all the time.

Anyone want to lead the lesson for me today? Photo: The Daily Telegraph

A government high school teacher friend is so busy that some days she literally has no time to go to the toilet. “I would usually work close to 60 hours a week and we are paid for 38 hours,” she says.

Before camps my friend prepares class plans for a fill-in and then marks the work upon her return. She gets eight hours off for reports, enough for one class. Most teachers have six, so the rest is in their own time.

“Keep in mind exams need to be marked before reports can be written,” she adds. “An exam takes 30-40 mins. I have 100 plus. Sometimes exams finish on Friday and reports are due Monday at 9am.

Still think teachers don’t deserve a better deal?

The latest round of Victorian industrial action, set to disrupt school camps and excursions, has brought out the haters who love to brand teachers spoilt, mollycoddled sooks.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Anyone who thinks they’re in it for the “endless holidays” and cushy public service conditions should take a walk in their shoes.

No group is perfect, but most teachers are intelligent, selfless and talented people who dedicate their lives to educating future generations.

Unlike some of their critics, who choose high paying careers that contribute relatively little to society, few if any teachers will earn or accumulate a personal fortune.

They have good holidays but many spend much of that time preparing for next term. Most attend countless unpaid meetings and give up lunch breaks for yard duty and sport.

My parents were both primary teachers and worked endless unpaid hours, many at home. Dad volunteered for extra sport duties and as a deputy principal Mum was on call 24/7 to race up to the school when an alarm went off.

My teacher friends respond to 2am phone calls from VCE students and deal with helicopter parents who interfere in every aspect of their child’s schooling.

Successful corporate types point out how hard they also work, which they do. But most are rewarded with much higher salaries and/or profits. 

After what they say are years of broken promises about making Victoria’s teachers Australia’s highest paid, teachers are fighting to ensure the best and brightest are attracted into the industry.

The Australian Education Union is unhappy with the State Government’s proposed performance pay system, which it says may see a small number among the highest paid but does not help the rest.

Premier Ted Baillieu has so far refused to give the teachers what they say would keep his promise to make them the country’s best paid, offering a smaller percentage rise plus bonuses for top performers. “What we seek to do is to introduce better pay for teachers based on performance,” he told 3AW on January 22.

What he and other politicians, most of whom use private schools, don’t see are the many sacrifices all government teachers already make to ensure our schools are as good as they can be.

On top of the work, teachers must also attend evening functions such as valedictory dinners. One parent recently failed to pick their child up until 3.30am, forcing teachers to wait with the student.

“We always have late parents from camps, productions, awards nights, formals etc,” my friend says. “We get very tired and that … is a work place safety issue.”

After ordering members to not write detailed reports last year, the AEU’s Victorian branch plans another state wide 24 hour stop work on February 14.

Teachers have also been told to work-to-rule with 38-hour weeks, putting many activities, excursions, camps and meetings at risk. Yes it’s annoying but we need to look at the big picture.

Talks with the State Government aimed at settling the dispute started this week and will continue next week, but there are no guarantees. 

Whatever happens, the State Government and armchair critics can’t have it both ways. They want a world class education system, but complain when teachers take action to achieve it.

Something has to give.

Follow Cheryl on Twitter: @CherylCritchley

Comments on this post close at 8pm AEST

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116 comments

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    • TChong says:

      05:08am | 01/02/13

      ICBS that very many teachers ( not Deputys / Principals )  take 2am phone calls from students - unless the teacher must be agreeable to the idea.
      Have an answering machine, a silent number , or just dont give the kids the phone number to begin with.
      I dont understand the “strangers kids 24/7 “
      Is this in reference to a “school camp “?
      And teachers dont get paid for going?
      Are the teachers forced to do unpaid work for a week ?
      If that is the case , the compulsary volunteerism must be an interestingly worded policy.
      Teachers whinging about something they are paid to do ( teaching kids )  , is as ludicrous as a “Health Professional “whining about sick people.

      Reply

    • AFR says:

      06:59am | 01/02/13

      +1

      “Teachers do this and more all the time.” - Um… no… they ....don’t.

      I agree that teaching can be a noble profession and is extremely important. But the BS you sprout in your first paragraph only leads to people that actually work 48+ weeks a year to think even less of the job you do.

    • Brian says:

      08:22am | 01/02/13

      There is no additional pay for going on a camp - i.e. they are paid for 38 hours of the 120 or so they are there. They are also still expected to complete the marking and so on when they return, and leave detailed lesson plans, if their own class is not attending - a common situation due to the requirement to have sufficient adults for the classes that ARE.

      For that matter, in WA at least, teachers are not paid for holidays. If they perform additional work which is actually paid (very little is, but some training courses are) they have an hourly rate which works out to be 38 hours a week, 44 weeks a year for their total salary. They may have 12 weeks off, but they only get paid for 4 like the rest of us…

    • Lola says:

      12:29pm | 01/02/13

      I’m a teacher, and while I think I work hard, the AEU’s commentary is standard bolshie whinging. Most teachers do not a) work over the summer holidays, apart from perhaps a week or two of bits and pieces before term, b) take calls from students at 2am. I’ll admit school camps are a 24/7 affair, hence our school has limited them to once a year, only for the most senior group. Helicopter parents are a problem, but you can manage that: just don’t buy into their dramas. Your not a parent of these kids, just spout waffle when the parents whinge and they soon go away, looking for a more amenable target.

    • Sorry to be a grammarphile, but someone's gotta do says:

      01:11pm | 01/02/13

      @Lola, I hope you’re not an English teacher, because your grammar is lacking somewhat.

    • Justme says:

      05:12am | 01/02/13

      Really Punch? This again? You could cut and paste the comments from all the previous teacher related pieces and save everyone the hassle of posting.

      Reply

    • Pisces says:

      08:24am | 01/02/13

      “Cut and paste” from past articles? What a great idea; after all, teachers do just that. Ever noticed two different names on one Report?

      And give me a break! “...8 hours…” to write ONE report???

    • Macca says:

      09:43am | 01/02/13

      @Pisces. No you idiot, 8 hours to write report for one ENTIRE class of 25+ students. Please read closer.

      And the apparent copy and pasting is because teachers can no longer speak the whole truth. A teacher can’t say a child is failing and needs to get their shit together. Instead, they are “below the benchmark”.

    • Macca says:

      09:43am | 01/02/13

      @Pisces. No you idiot, 8 hours to write report for one ENTIRE class of 25+ students, of which they have six of. Please read closer.

      And the apparent copy and pasting is because teachers can no longer speak the whole truth. A teacher can’t say a child is failing and needs to get their shit together. Instead, they are “below the benchmark”.

    • Pisces says:

      10:11am | 01/02/13

      Thanks Macca but as a teacher, I know EXACTLY what that meant and I certainly don’t need to be told twice by you.

      So all classes comprise “25+” students, do they? What about the VCE classes that have between 9-11 students?

      My friend’s child has just started Prep (public system) and her child’s class has 17 students.

      As for your second sentence, “below the benchmark” is still one comment in a whole series of comments teachers can choose to “cut and paste”. Something that parents can see for themselves as they look at the graph - which is not drawn up by the poor, haggard teachers but a Reporting programme.

      Now who’s obtuse?

    • acotrel says:

      06:09am | 01/02/13

      If all teachers were required to have industrial experience prior to teaching, they would never have let their unpaid workload become so great.  . ‘The system runs on bullshit’ and you are part of it. Welcome to the real world guys

      Reply

    • GROBP says:

      07:20am | 01/02/13

      It’s happened again acotrel. I agree with you.

      I was a (science) teacher for a short while (after lots of industry) and can tell all from experience. It is a ridiculously easy job. The only hard part is dealing with 30 entitled, indulgent brat personalities each lesson. I’d certainly still be there if I needed the money.

    • Pisces says:

      08:31am | 01/02/13

      I’ll tell you what “bullshit” is, it’s the whole idea of VOLUNTEERS.

      Thousands of generous people donate their experience and time to do volunteer work in just about every sphere of life. These are generally older people who are deemed too old to be “gainfully employed”.

      So, if being too old to be in the paid workforce but young enough to give up hours/days (not to mention travel expenses) for free is not “bullshit” (not to mention hypocrisy), then I don’t know what is!

    • GROBP says:

      09:17am | 01/02/13

      No Pisces. I’ll tell you what bullshit is. It’s bringing in skilled workers when Australia’s got over 20% youth unemployed, and who knows how much real unemployment, to work in mines and industry Australia no longer own. Anyone thinks that’s going to turn out well is dreaming.

    • Pisces says:

      09:39am | 01/02/13

      @GROBP

      You are quite right, on both points! I note that many of Australia’s farms are being bought by the Chinese. At least that will fix the obesity problem: few people will be able to afford to put food on the table.

    • Dibbler says:

      06:15am | 01/02/13

      So, what you are arguing is that we should roll over and except the demands of these union thugs who use blackmail and extortion to further feather there nests as tax-payers expense. Most teachers are people who couldnt get into any other degree at university. They work a 30 hour week and get 12 weeks holoidays yet get paid like they are full time.

      Reply

    • Cheryl Critchley says:

      07:06am | 01/02/13

      If you really looked into it teachers actually deserve more than they are asking for. They are NOT asking for overtime payments for camps, but only for the fact that they do all this extra work for nothing to be acknowledged. How many of you guys would do endless free work when your base wage clearly did not make it worthwhile? I suspect not many. I also suspect you’d resist taking your work colleagues on a week-long camp and being responsible for them 24/7, including evenings when they could play up, wihout any overtime. By your reckoning we should pay teachers peanuts, which is not going to attract really good people into the profession, or will see the good ones leave. I know a few excellent teachers who have left or want to leave simply because governments treat them with contempt.

    • scott says:

      09:46am | 01/02/13

      @ Cheryl

      Most employment contracts allow for ‘reasonable overtime’ which is typically unpaid.

      Teachers writing reports, preparing lesson plans and going on excursions sounds like reasonable overtime to me.  It is part of their profession.

    • xnl says:

      12:50pm | 01/02/13

      > “union thugs who use blackmail and extortion to further feather there nests as tax-payers expense”

      These bimonthly teacher topics are pretty boring but you can’t beat em for histrionics

    • Cheryl Critchley says:

      06:20am | 01/02/13

      Maybe they are posting more articles defending teachers because they do work so hard and do so much unpaid and unacknowledged work! Why to people find it so easy to bag teachers when they are doing a really important and often thankless job? And TChong, the 24/7 is at school camps, where they get paid for a 38 hour week but work 24 hours a day for up to a week. They are NOT whingeing about doing this, but the fact that State Government bureaucrats are trying to claim they don’t work after 4pm on camps and not acknowledging the many, many unpaid hours they do.

      Reply

    • Peter says:

      08:46am | 01/02/13

      Dont worry about TChong.  Nobody gives that regular poster and notice.

    • Fezzbo says:

      08:57am | 01/02/13

      I’m at work, being productive 50-60 hours a week most weeks earning my 40 hrs worth of pay. At work. Not sitting at home, cutting and pasting comments from an excel spreadsheet into a “report”. Unpaid and unacknowledged work? Give me a break! They get 12 weeks paid holidays FFS. If you think teachers are so hard up, drop them into a different job that pays the same. Guarantee they’d run back to teaching faster than Usain Bolt…

    • Brian says:

      10:04am | 01/02/13

      Sorry, Fezzbo, they get 4 weeks paid and 8 weeks unpaid holidays. All at times which are dictated by the employer…

    • encee says:

      10:46am | 01/02/13

      @ Cheryl Critchley: “Why to people find it so easy to bag teachers when they are doing a really important and often thankless job”

      Looking at the appalling level of literacy in kids today, I think teachers are OVER paid and need to go back to school themselves.

    • Angry God of Townsville says:

      11:44am | 01/02/13

      No, you are using this as part of a process to distort the opinions of the public. I say distort, because you do not represent both sides of the argument, you do not place the actual amount of pay on the line and you do not comprehend that making the money to pay the tax to pay for all the services and not just teachers limits the amount of money available.

      Every worker in the real world does a number of hours unpaid. Most people have less than two weeks holiday a year because of financial pressures and most would be more than happy to receive the amount Victorian teachers currently receive. You exaggerate the camp claims and that makes your argument weaker.

      Teaching is an important profession, but it, like all others has to operate within an available budget and the use of over emotional blackmail with severe misinformation destroys your credibility.

      The majority of teachers are at school just after 8 and go home before 4, except during exam periods. Experienced teachers are not spending hours on prep, especially now that the National Curriculum is in place. They do get breaks and they are provided with additional training and opportunities during the year that you have also conveniently left un-addressed.

      I respect teachers, but seriously, nobody does a job better for more pay, People who do a better job deserve more pay but teachers unions do not allow for the recognition of excellence by financial reward as only seniority is the basis of pay. Lack of performance sees Australia fall in the performance rankings. Not from lack of IQ but from a teacher constructed curriculum that fails to teach the real parameters required to be a productive and functional adult.

      Teaching should be held accountable to justify their position for more pay. This article fails to realistically address or accurately portray what Victorian teachers have done to earn additional funding, as against the rest of the working environment.

      Sorry if this is a bit harsh, but the money has to come from somewhere and someone has to earn the hard dollars you want for the increase.

    • Fezzbo says:

      02:10pm | 01/02/13

      Wrong Brian. They get recreation leave loading to account for the 8 weeks leave outside of their usual 4 weeks annual leave. And by the way, everyone’s leave is dictated by their employer. You ask “holiday?”, they say “yes” or “no”. Real world.

      I’ll echo Angry God as well; You want more money? Do a better Job. It’s not the rest of the worlds fault you lot have a union that wants the quality of a teacher to be based on tenure rather than excellence. Cry me a bloody river.

      Oh, another thing! I saw an article on the ALEA website last year pointing out concern that average university graduate teacher literacy was recorded at an all time low last year, measuring somewhere between 8th and 9th year levels… Good luck Australian Education System, you’re gonna need it.

    • Brian says:

      05:47pm | 01/02/13

      Can’t argue for any other state, Fezzbo, but there is no such thing as ‘recreational leave loading’ (or any similar phrase) for WA teachers. Go back a few decades and they were literally not paid for 8 of the 12 weeks off, when that changed the total yearly salary did not change, it was simply paid over all 52 weeks.

      And it’s not quite the same as any other employer - with those, you can ask for specific times and the employer will review it. As a teacher, you cannot (unless you have long service leave). Yes, other employers can dictate yes or no, but refusal of annual leave can actually be used as grounds for constructive dismissal if it is repeated or unjustified…

      I suppose I should state, for the record, that I’m not a teacher and that I think the article went too far in claiming hardships, but that doesn’t change the fact a lot of people assume things which are false about being a teacher.

    • Gary Cox says:

      06:21am | 01/02/13

      The biggest problem with teachers is they feel that they have to tell you at every opportunity how hard they work. Everyone else just gets on with it.

      Reply

    • T-rev says:

      07:01am | 01/02/13

      True that. Biggest whingers out there…

    • Brian says:

      08:26am | 01/02/13

      Nurses, police, wharfies, prison officers.

      I have seen television adverts about all of these other professions within the last year, with very similar sorts of stories. Many other professions doubtless also have similar disputes, but as they are not employed by the government there is no point publicising it.

    • Leo says:

      09:33am | 01/02/13

      Brian, that is because no other employer goes out of their way to publically denegrate their employees as Governments do. Except maybe QANTAS.

    • Brian says:

      10:12am | 01/02/13

      I’d argue it’s probably because no other employer is as sensitive as bad publicity as a government who has to be elected, actually. That argument applies both to the fact that the government responds (and yes, the employees almost always start it - because it’s effective) publicly and the fact that the employees go public.

      If you did the same when you were, say, an accountant for ANZ the response would be ‘so what? You’ve got lots of people who have nothing to do with the business who agree with you? Big deal.’

    • Thoughts says:

      06:43am | 01/02/13

      I have two questions-

      First, if teaching is such a great job (as many people claim) with short hours and endless holidays, etc, then why do more than 40% of trained teachers leave the profession within 5 years?

      Second, if its such an easy job, why don’t all the punch readers who comment on how easy a job it is re-train (only 2 yrs for a grad dip in education) and join up for endless holidays and being on the beach by 4.

      Most of the bogan teacher haters on here have NO IDEA what being a teacher is like.  My wife, a highly qualified and experienced teacher, wants nothing more than to leave the profession.  She will be out within the next few years, creating a vacancy for anyone that wants an ‘easy’ job.

      I would NEVER recommend that anyone becomes a teacher - it’s got to be right up there as one of the worst things you could subject yourself to.

      Reply

    • Frank "Grimey" Grimes says:

      07:07am | 01/02/13

      @ Thought

      No one said it was a “great” job, champ. They just said it was an “easy” or “cruisy” job that the majority of educated people could do at the drop of a hat.

      The problem is: easy/cruisy jobs don’t pay well. Fact of life worth learning.

      The lifestyle I want cannot be afforded on a teacher’s salary, therefore I’ll stick with the profession I’m in and not downgrade. My guess is most people have made the same decision.

      If someone hates being a teacher, I suggest they look for other employment if they are qualified to do so,,, just seems like common sense to me,

    • stephen says:

      07:33am | 01/02/13

      Your wife doesn’t leave now because she wants the pay, which is why most graduates become teachers - and the short hours.

      And they take work calls at 2am ?
      Or is that ‘jonny got caught driving a stolen car and he won’t make the swimming carnival’ sort of a phone call.

    • Tim says:

      07:58am | 01/02/13

      “First, if teaching is such a great job (as many people claim) with short hours and endless holidays, etc, then why do more than 40% of trained teachers leave the profession within 5 years?”

      Because they can get paid more in private non education sector jobs.

      “Second, if its such an easy job, why don’t all the punch readers who comment on how easy a job it is re-train (only 2 yrs for a grad dip in education) and join up for endless holidays and being on the beach by 4”.

      Because they can get paid more in private non education sector jobs.

      Until teachers start acting like every other professional and subject themselves to performance pay, then we will be stuck in the situation we currently have where the good and highly qualified teachers will leave the profession because it’s impossible to pay them what they are worth, in a job where everyone gets paid the same.

    • Ian1 says:

      08:18am | 01/02/13

      Hi Thoughts,  I’d like to have a crack at your first question?

      Most leave in the first 5 years for a couple of reasons.  The longer a teacher has been in schools, the more expensive to employ.  Contract offers generally dry up after teaching a few years - ask around.  Many teachers can’t commit to country service for whatever reason, and therefore don’t gain permanency.  But essentially governments can’t afford to staff every classroom with experienced teachers, hence the churn of cheaper inexperienced staff.  Last year the number floated was 17500 teachers registered (in Qld) but without contract or teaching permanency. 

      Then there are some who, after realizing the behavioural and sub-cultural nuances of today’s teens are highly stressful to monitor, leave for their own health’s sake.  The constant curriculum and framework changes are a burden.  Being at the bottom rung of a megalithic bureaucracy where only ‘progressives’ thrive, a dishonour.  By chance meeting former students who already have established for themselves all sorts of careers with better pay and conditions.

      Or the way political agenda has seemingly merged with curriculum.  This has caused more than a few of the best to resign.

    • Big Jay says:

      09:18am | 01/02/13

      @Thoughts

      First - I presume it is because they can’t find permanent work, like most young teachers I know seem to be going through. Also, many trained professionals leave said profession early in the piece cause they’ve started worked out they don’t like it!!

      Second - Personally, I wouldn’t re-train for a myriad of reasons that most people on here are going to put, Specifically, I have no interest in teaching, my chosen career I find more interesting work than teaching and has the potential for vastly more money over career span. That, and I’m not scared of full time work (50hrs a week, 48weeks a year).

    • cil says:

      06:55am | 01/02/13

      then don’t comment…. no one is forcing you!

      Reply

    • Nilbog says:

      06:56am | 01/02/13

      I somewhat agree that teachers should be paid more.

      However, not because they deserve it. If you invited a random school teacher to a party these days they’d most likely be the stupidest person in the room.

      The academic requirement to get into education these days is alarmingly low. And these are the people who will be teaching our next generations?

      We need to pay more to attract smarter children to study education at university and become teachers.

      As usual, teachers will whinge, oblivious to the strains and expectations of other jobs, which are often way more demanding then theirs ever will be.

      Of course, they could always change career, if they were actually qualified to do something else. Oh wait…

      Reply

    • Jeremy says:

      10:27am | 01/02/13

      I can’t think any other professional where you can move into a poorly supervised position, where people seriously depend on your ability, after such a brief degree that requires such a low entry score.

    • Kika says:

      11:35am | 01/02/13

      Totally agree.

      When my parents went to school their teachers were usually teachers because they were either a) experts in their field or (and most often the case) b) Bright women who’s career options were limited to teaching or typing. Those who were teachers were probably the female doctors and lawyers of their day. But of course, when they were married they had to stop teaching so those who wanted a career in teaching and be married had to become scholars at universities.

      I am all for paying teachers more, but the expectations and standards required of the teachers needs to be strict. Just like every other profession in the world their pay should be performance based.

    • Jay2 says:

      07:05am | 01/02/13

      Cheryl, I see both ends of the spectum with teachers.

      I do see the teachers who are dedicated, who get up at 5am to prepare notes; take time to write helpful critiques on exam papers; who stay back at school until 5pm; have hot chocolate days at their own expense etc etc (my sister in law happens to fit into that category) and most importantly the one who tries to get the best individual results of every student. These teachers are worth double what they get. These type of teachers are universally admired by students and parents.

      Then you have the teachers, who arrive five minutes before start time; take lots of sickies; hand out copious of amount of notes that the students have to copy (time filling, not teaching); who say “I’m not explaining this again, if you don’t get it, ask another student at lunchtime”; who yell, scream, intimidate etc and clearly they are turning up to collect a pay cheque and not teach.

      I use to nurse, but there is no way in hell I could teach, it would drive me insane and I’m simply not cut out for that job. I would consider that profession a really hard, stressful one.

      How you cull the bad teachers and reward the good ones, I wouldn’t have a clue, but that’s what should happen.
      My kids, last one in year 12, remember from primary school upwards, all the good and bad teachers, with naturally, vastly different opinions on them.
      Talk to other grown up kids up school, inevitabley the conversation comes up of who was wonderful and who was horrible, but it’s always the good teachers that have long lasting respect and a good reputation.

      Reply

    • Mark says:

      10:39am | 01/02/13

      Best comment on this article so far. As with any industry, there are people who are dedicated to their work and endeavour to do the best they can. Then on the other hand you have the clock watchers who don’t care, and strive to do the bare minimum required.

      There are teachers who are worth much more than what they are paid, and unfortunately most of these will never get rewarded for their hard work. Some of the behaviour of both the parents and students have to be seen to be believed and it is a shame that the teachers have to be subjected to such feral behaviour.

    • Eskimo says:

      07:26am | 01/02/13

      How can you supervise children 24/7 for five days? The denominator in this rhetoric fraction refers to being available for seven days, not five. Indulging in a little hyperbole, are we?

      Reply

    • James1 says:

      10:56am | 01/02/13

      I believe it refers to school camps, which often go for more than five days.

    • chuck says:

      07:42am | 01/02/13

      I had industrial experience before I entered the Dep’t. Only lasted 3 years at the secondary level before I returned to the comfort of the Public service. I’m not sure what was worse during the 3 years, the inability to get the message across, the child minding, the abysmal behaviour of some of the students and their parents, the elitism of the senior teachers who took the best classes, or the Dep’t that didn’t resource the schools adequately nor protect its’ human assets!
      Strange how the state government can spend $‘s on the members in blue but be damned to do much about either the education of the population or its health.

      Reply

    • I Respect Teachers says:

      07:58am | 01/02/13

      Teachers, in general, do a difficult job and do it well. Their holidays and work hours may seem a bit generous. Having grown up with two teachers as parents I can vouch for the fact teachers do stuff out of hours and on holidays but can also testify that they enjoy more time off than some other professions. What I would like to see, and what seems to be missing in all this criticism of teachers and the counter arguments is accountability and performance based pay as part of that accountability. Teaching remains one of the few professions where poor performers who either don’t, or barely achieve outcomes are paid the same as high achievers. So where is the motivation to work hard and seek excellence in your work and your outcomes? We also need accountability to ensure our future generations are adequately prepared to work and contribute to society. So, teachers, here is the challenge - keep doing what you do well but accept accountability and the challenges that performance based pay bring, rather than continuing to work in a framework that champions mediocrity.

      Reply

    • ramases says:

      08:03am | 01/02/13

      Here we go again, poor teachers, 12 weeks paid leave a year, some unable to string a sentence together because of the low standard of person going into the profession as there is no other Uni course that would accept them except an Arts degreee???.
        Complaining about every little thing that goes on and now wanting even more money. I would give them more money if they were doing what they were employed to do, teach the children but this seems to be second choice as demanding more money takes precedence.
        Do the job you were employed for first before even considering asking for more on an already over the top wage.

      Reply

    • Jeremy says:

      10:24am | 01/02/13

      Teachers don’t seem to realize that all the petty extras they feel they have to do, which only some actually do, are par for the course for basically any white collar job.
      I think it’s hilarious that they think people will feel sorry for them because occasionally some teachers work unpaid overtime or weekends. Just a hint, most employers consider any one on salary to be obliged to work as much as is necessarily.

    • Stephen says:

      08:20am | 01/02/13

      Interesting that most teachers are female, and that 40% leave the profession after 5 years…apparently.

      Perhaps the feminisation of the education industry wasn’t so clever after all.

      Cant stand the heat…ask for a pay rise.

      Reply

    • Incredulous says:

      08:28am | 01/02/13

      “teachers are intelligent, selfless and talented people”. Do they also burp rainbows?

      Reply

    • porloc says:

      08:34am | 01/02/13

      What nonsense. Teachers are not in front of students all day, even in primary. Work loads of actual teaching have never been lower.There ae teachers who know their subjects well but some who have only the most basic subject knowledge and teach from the textbook (or now Google.) Some genuinely care about the outcomes for their students but many are indifferent. Much of the work of teachers is in a self created bureaucracy with co-ordinators for everything and endless meetings. Why? Because it is the aim of most teachers to escape the classroom. Some teachers do work hard - the emergency replacement teachers employed on a daily basis have no perks and everything dumped on them.
      Short term contracts make teaching employment uncertain but there are plenty of applicants. Why would you raise wages in an industry where you can get 300 qualified applicants for a single position and even a remote country school will have 20 applicants for a maths position?
      Teachers of an earlier generation made a point of never striking for increased wages. This unon leadership doesn’t seem to realise what a poor impression of their membership this is giving to the public.

      Reply

    • cheryl critchley says:

      09:40am | 01/02/13

      How can a primary teacher avoid students??? Apart from specialist classes they are with them all the time. Not to mention deag with a growing number of parents who sook and whinge at any opportunity. These parebts, who literally complain about nothing,  waste further hours of teachers’ time for ridiculous reasons like their kid not getting into their best friend’s class. As for the 2am calls, my friends gets them often from senior students worried about examsetc. She also gets endless emails, which she cannot ignore.

    • Westy says:

      10:53am | 01/02/13

      Work loads at my kids’ school is increasing because of funding cuts for specialist teachers.  My kids now have their normal classroom teacher for library, ICT (computers) and every second PE lesson.  There is no specialist Reading Recovery tutor any longer to give one-on-one attention to Grade 1s who need a bit of extra help to get their literacy up to scratch before they get lost in the system and this impacts ALL the students in a classroom. 

      Class sizes are increasing (my kids have 30 kids in their classes and abilities range across probably a 4-year spectrum at least ) and each kids needs to have an individual learning plan these days.  My husband would love to not have to spend every evening in meetings, etc, but someone needs to plan and implement all the bureaucratic rubbish that the government inflicts on them. 
      Teachers in earlier generations didn’t need to strike as they were paid fantastically.  Yes, today’s teachers (if they can get a job) get paid well straight out of uni.  But after eight years in the job, they’ve hit the ceiling and that’s it.  Someone with 40 years of experience gets paid the same as someone with 8 years unless they want to take on a “leadership role” (more paperwork, more meetings, less teaching). 
      They’re just asking for fair conditions for EVERYONE in schools (that includes the students as that’s who most teachers are there for) and to be remunerated appropriately.

    • Tbird says:

      11:19am | 01/02/13

      Ever tried working in Customer Service or a Call Centre? Then you’ll know about whinging, complaints, abuse and rudeness.
      Try turning phone off at night? And who gave students the teachers phone numbers ...you reap what you sow.
      My sister is a award winning teacher/assistant principal in a private school in NT and she is forever on holidays jet setting around the world.
      If these state school teachers are any good they’d be recruited to private schools with far better pay and conditions. Just like any other occupation really.

    • James says:

      08:55am | 01/02/13

      How is it reasonable to demand a 30% pay increase over 3-4 years from the government when they’re offering 2.5%? Are you honestly surprised this got knocked back? This union and many other unions seem to run under the belief that money grows on trees and that they’re somehow entitled to a large chunk of it.

      And then when you don’t get your way you lot go on strike and impact all the people who have nothing to do with your wages and no control or say in the matter. That’s selfish beyond belief and I have no time for it whatsoever.

      And BTW if you’re silly enough to give a student your mobile number then you probably deserve to be called at 2am. Once again common sense seems to be lacking.

      Reply

    • Westy says:

      11:04am | 01/02/13

      It’s called a negotiating tactic.  If the least you’ll accept on your car is $10K, you don’t put $10,500 as the asking price.  If you’re buying and only willing to pay $10K, you don’t make your first offer $9990.  You give yourself wiggle room.
      The union has dropped to 4.2% per year for three years (bear in mind this has been dragging on for two years already so no pay increases in that time) but the government has not yet budged at all.

    • St. Michael says:

      12:01pm | 01/02/13

      @ Westy: a “negotiating tactic” coupled with a threat of strikes is what is traditionally known as a “protection racket”.  “You’ve got a nice little education system here.  Wouldn’t want to see it messed up at all, would you? Well, pay us 30% pay increases over 3-4 years and it won’t be.”

      Not to mention asking for skyscraper-high increases is the sort of negotiating tactic that would get you laughed out of most commercial transactions, because it all but invites the other party to simply leave the table and tell you “Come back when you decide to stop imitating your twelve-year old students.”

    • Colin says:

      09:10am | 01/02/13

      Hilarious.

      All of the whingy, whiny bogans out there who think that, “...anyone could be a teacher…” as if they have any clue how to motivate and encourage children in a way that makes them want to learn whilst bolstering their self-esteem, preparing them for life, and nurturing the fire of curiosity within them all.

      I am no teacher - and very much doubt that I could be one because of the special type of person that you need to be to achieve the things I mentioned - but I sure as hell know that the bogans on here who think they could do it would quickly resort to “Clippin’ ‘em about the ears (‘cos a good belt never hurt me none) and showin’ them that life is all about gettin’ enough money for a house, two cars, a flat-screen TV and a jet-ski…and don’t go bein’ no toffy educated type, neither; get yaself a trade and make big bucks”

      Reply

    • porloc says:

      09:29am | 01/02/13

      I have taught in schools both state and private, primary and secondary in the past and did contract teaching to supplement income during the drought. So I do know something about the topic. And I know when the truth is being stretched.
      By the way, most schools don’t use chalk and blackboards anymore.

    • philip says:

      09:45am | 01/02/13

      actually colin its true anyone can be a teacher its not hard to teach a child to read write and do arithmatic as well as teach history from textbooks etc. its just that in the last few hundred years parents do not have the time to do all these things and be able to pay bills and put food on the table at the same time thats why we created a profession that was able to do what we cannot do all in one day.

    • Colin says:

      11:37am | 01/02/13

      @ philip

      “...actually colin its true anyone can be a teacher its not hard to teach a child to read write and do arithmatic as well as teach history from textbooks…”

      Did you not read this part of my post:

      “...they have any clue how to motivate and encourage children in a way that makes them want to learn whilst bolstering their self-esteem, preparing them for life, and nurturing the fire of curiosity within them all…”

      THAT is the hard bit, not the “Easy” bit that I knew people would latch on to.

    • Tubesteak says:

      12:10pm | 01/02/13

      “they have any clue how to motivate and encourage children in a way that makes them want to learn whilst bolstering their self-esteem, preparing them for life, and nurturing the fire of curiosity within them all”

      Times must be different now because teachers didn’t do that in my day. It was up to the student to motivate and drive themselves.

      Teachers just walked into a classroom and started reading from a textbook and then told us to do some exercises in the textbook. Lesson over.

    • Amused Teacher says:

      01:04pm | 01/02/13

      Actually Philip, it’s not true that anyone can become a teacher.

      My double degree course required an ENTER of around 78 or above, which allows for ... wait for it ... only the top 22% of students.  Most of the bogans on here whinging are generally jealous that they didn’t perform well enough at school to be in a profession that requires both brains and emotional intelligence. A profession that is revered in nearly every other society in the world.

      I could say more but I fear it’s wasted. In the meantime:
      * it is = it’s
      * The beginning of sentences and proper nouns (eg ‘Colin’) require capitalisation.
      * Let commas and full stops be your friend.

    • St. Michael says:

      01:28pm | 01/02/13

      Oh dear, another teacher who thinks he’s a professional.  See my comments further down about that.

      More relevantly, here’s a quote from TISC, i.e. the WA government’s website on cutoff scores for teaching this year…

      “At Murdoch University’s main campus the cut-off entry rank for primary school teaching was 60.35, which could be achieved by a student averaging 49 per cent across four Year 12 subjects.  The cut-off was 57.3 at Murdoch’s Rockingham campus, which required an average of about 47 per cent.  Murdoch’s education cut-off has not changed despite education ministers agreeing last year that teaching profession entrants should be in the country’s top 30 per cent for literacy and numeracy.  An ATAR of 70 indicates that a student has ranked in WA’s top 30 per cent.”

      Source: http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/breaking/15870487/low-scores-enough-for-teaching/

      That is, in WA at least you can literally fail every subject in Year 12 and still qualify to teach.

      But hey, let’s go national.  Perhaps a direct quote from The Australian, April 30, 2012?:

      “TEACHING attracted the highest proportion of university offers for school leavers with an Australian Tertiary Admission Rank of less than 50, in direct violation of a government commitment to increase the proportion of entrants with an ATAR of more than 70…Education, along with information technology with 5.9 per cent of offers for those with ATARs below 50, were the least popular subject areas for high-achieving students. Only 5 per cent of offers for students with 90 or above were for teaching and 7.3 per cent for IT.”

      Source: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/higher-education/entry-standards-for-teaching-hit-skids/story-e6frgcjx-1226342146383

      So hey, Amused Teacher, I guess that makes you part of 10% of students silly enough to select teaching rather than law? As it is, I suspect your high(ish) ENTER score comes from the other half of your double degree, not the B. Ed they include with the Kids’ Meal from McDonald’s.

    • Proud, Amused Teacher says:

      01:54pm | 01/02/13

      Oh dear. St Michael, I gave you the benefit of the doubt and responded to you below, as ‘Proud Teacher’, thinking you were making genuine yet misguided observations.

      I see here you are just trying to be provocative with your super clever MacDonalds references (so original!), something with which teachers are familiar. Let me make myself clear: I know I work in a profession and I don’t need to convince anyone of anything that is already a truth. And - no offence - I really don’t care if internet randoms such as yourself agree or don’t like it.

    • NSS says:

      10:23am | 01/02/13

      You pay peanuts, you get monkeys. If this society valued the work performed by teachers and looked at it other than on an hourly rate basis, (which is nonsense for a profession which clearly does not cease work at 3.30pm, as some who can’t see past their noses like to believe), then the profession would attract a better calibre of candidate. Subsequently, our children ) would be nurtured by greater numbers of caring, dedicated, intelligent and passionate educators. Win- win, in my book.

      Think about the importance of the work they do, not just “oow, look at the holidays they get”. Honestly, that is possibly the most unintelligent, simplistic and pointless comment. It says much that it’s “cut and pasted” so often on this site.

      Reply

    • Proud Teacher says:

      04:19pm | 01/02/13

      Great comment.

      The ‘look at dem holidays’ is not the most unintelligent and pointless comment we hear, however. That award goes to “those who can, do, those who can’t, teach”, a bastardised version of what George Bernard Shaw wrote regarding the ineffectiveness of some ADULT EDUCATION teachers. A quote now misquoted and thrown at primary and secondary teachers, by the sorts of people from whom Shaw would have distanced himself quicker than you can say “bogans with a catchphrase”

    • AdamC says:

      10:24am | 01/02/13

      “My teacher friends respond to 2am phone calls from VCE students and deal with helicopter parents who interfere in every aspect of their child’s schooling.”

      Well, Cheryl, if they are doing these things, they are not properly establishing professional boundaries. That is nobody else’s fault but their own.

      I agree that teachers are sometimes unfairly maligned. But they also bring it on themselves. For example, while most teachers are hard-working, well-educated and competent, some are crap. Just like in every other industry or workplace. Teachers seem to think that is not the case. Or, more specifically, that it is impossible to tell the difference between a good teacher and a crap one. As a former school student, I can assure you that this is not the case. 

      Maybe schools should start asking students, parents and teachers themselves who are high-performing teaches and who are unsatisfactory? Maybe assessors could observe teachers in class and grade their technique? Then schools could performance-manage or dismiss bad teachers, and offer additional rewards to good ones. (I understand this is something like what the Victorian government is proposing.)

      Personally, I find it difficult to take the demands of teachers and their unions seriously. If they are happy to critique and grade students’ work, they should accept scrutiny of their own. Also, while teachers no doubt do work outside usual hours, they also do get extra holidays. Australian teachers are also paid quite well by world standards. Indeed, better than teachers in many nations whose education systems perform better than ours. Senior teachers are also paid significantly more than the Australian average, which is about $70k a year. 

      If I were the education union (AEU) I would be more interested in working with the government to reduce the use of fixed-term contracts in the sector. That would do more to help young teachers than an increasingly unpopular industrial campaign.

      Reply

    • Stained says:

      11:44am | 01/02/13

      Good points AdamC, who else knows the poor performers, the students and the parents.  And I expect other teachers also.  They need to instill 360 degree appraisals.  If I were a good teacher and got results I would not be fearful of this.
      I would go even further and ask the union how to set up measures for their membership.  If they don’t want to be part of the solution, then let us know.

    • Me says:

      11:50am | 01/02/13

      Adam, the issue of contracts is one of the other issues currently under negotiation.  Of course, that doesn’t sell as many newspapers, get as many hits or provoke enough comments as focusing only on the pay rise part.

    • Hamish says:

      01:47pm | 01/02/13

      The greatest myth peddled by the AEU is that teaching is this special unique as a beautiful snowflake profession which unlike every single other job on the planet is somehow unable to have its performance measured. I would suggest it’s actually one of the easiest. Peer, student and parent feedback coupled with student benchmarking and skill development audits would give a relatively very accurate measure of teacher performance. Much easier than my job.

      If such a system was instituted you would be able to identify particular talents which teachers possess, whether improving the results of ‘problem’ kids, challenging the very academic kids or being a great generalist. Who knows, education standards and teacher work satisfaction might even improve, Heaven forfend.

    • Cheryl Critchley says:

      02:02pm | 01/02/13

      If you guys all think teaching is so cushy, why aren’t you all doing it???? As for getting students and parents to judge teachers, you cannot be serious. Parents already think they should be running schools and their judgement is clouded by what they think their precious child deserves. Any assessment needs to be done by objective professionals, perhaps with some parent and student feedback.

    • Stained says:

      03:24pm | 01/02/13

      @Cheryl Critchley, parents see that their child’s teachers have immense faults and inabilities to teach with glaring examples of failures.  Just checking their child’s work passes with flying colours.  Blatant grammatical errors and incorrect English are overlooked.
      A great example is the letters page here or comments.  These poor individuals were taught by fools, isn’t this enough evidence?

      As for doing the job themselves or ourselves, the money they are on isn’t enough however, if they introduced performance pay, I’d seriously think about it.  I know I would pass!

    • Westy says:

      10:31am | 01/02/13

      Here we go again.
      1.  The media continually focuses on the “pay rise” (which is not a pay rise in real terms anyway).  The bigger issues here are contracts, class sizes and performance pay (how the heck do you measure the performance of a PE teacher? What about the teacher who has a student who continually falls below the average but manages to improve their self-esteem, effort and behaviour?)
      2.  My husband has no problem working in his holidays.  But what can he do when his principal refuses to even tell him what year level he will be teaching until the first day back, let alone which kids will be in his class or what room he’ll be in?  Is he supposed to prepare lesson plans for each of the 10 possibilities in a Prep-Yr 9 school? 

      This is not about teachers being lazy.  It is about them taking legal industrial action to bring attention to the issues as they do not have the ability to negotiate individually with their employer.  The union has dropped the ball in some respects, eg in communicating with parents and the wider community, but they at least have compromised from 30% down to 4.2% per year.  The Faillieu government (when they have even bothered coming to the negotiating table) have refused to budge from 2.5% over the last two years.  But somehow they make it out to be the teachers’ fault.

      Reply

    • Jonkaby says:

      10:46am | 01/02/13

      Performance pay will never be accepted by the Profession until those supporting the idea realise that the performance of the teacher may not be directly related to the results of the student. Think of the students in the State system that have Autism, are IM, have ED or are part of the Behaviour Unit. Who will teach the students who are blind, deaf or have learning difficulties? There are also the students who have profound intellectual and physical disabilities. These students may never reach the benchmarks, however, the teachers may be extraordinary. Performance pay should be independent of students results.

      Reply

    • Peter says:

      11:09am | 01/02/13

      Very true.  But surely it is possible to view ‘results’ as a trend-line?  Eg. if a new teacher joins and his/her classes consistenly get better results than before, how about that?  Or how about the same teacher applies themselves better and their class results improve? 

      Or are you saying it is impossible for a better teacher to get better results vs a bad teacher (all things being equal)?  Because I would disagree with that.  We’ve all had good/bad teachers in our lives and surely a good teacher brings out the best in students as opposed to the old, lazy clock-watcher who doesn’t even want to be there (and there a lot of them).

    • Jeremy says:

      12:39pm | 01/02/13

      You do realise that in every company I know of each area (portfolio, location) gets different appraisals? They don’t directly compare sales figures in Sydney CBD, and Dubbo. HR don’t get compared to the Investment bankers. 
      No one expects a teacher to get a kid who can’t spell his name to the same level as an Olympiad child. But to pretend that rating teachers is going to be much more difficult or unfair than in other industries is either ignorant, or a scare tactic used by teachers and unions who know many of their members would not past muster.

    • Tubesteak says:

      10:56am | 01/02/13

      How many of us take work calls at 2am?
      Often

      Or supervise strangers’ kids 24/7 for five days for nothing?
      No-one. You get paid to do it during school hours. Its parent’s responsibility to do it outside of these times.

      Or block out whole weekends to write reports without overtime or time in lieu?
      I thought just about everyone these days. Just about every employment contract I have signed has had a bit in it that said this was the norm on top of the “office hours” of 8:45am to 5:15pm. Note that’s not 9-3:30 like teachers….

      Still think teachers don’t deserve a better deal?
      If you do the job for the pay they are offering then you get the deal you deserve. I want a higher pay so do a different job. That’s life

      who choose high paying careers that contribute relatively little to society
      Precisely what are you basing this on? Without bankers nothing would ever get funded: no roads, no bridges, no houses, no companies. Without lawyers to facilitate the regulations now imposed on everything nothing could happen. Without doctors there would be no-one to heal the sick…..


      and guess what: unlike all the teachers I had from Kindy through to Year 12 I can’t just walk into my job and start quoting directly from a textbook and tell kids to do a few exercises that are in a textbook I didn’t write. I actually have to apply specialist experience, education and training I have completed to arrive at an outcome in an environment that constantly changes.

      Reply

    • Vince says:

      12:58pm | 01/02/13

      I’ll take a booty call at 2am, but if my mobile rings I wouldn’t answer it.  But, then again, I turn it off before bed.  If you’re so important that you have to answer the phone at 2am then you are kidding yourself.

    • Stained says:

      11:10am | 01/02/13

      “My teacher friends respond to 2am phone calls from VCE students and deal with helicopter parents who interfere in every aspect of their child’s schooling.” 
      Hang on, they don’t have time to go to the toilet, but they can have time for friendships?  Clichés are just that, silly.  I expect they sip latte with you (next to the toilet).  Your 2am quip is hard to believe, possibly another “can’t go to the toilet” cliché?  Your story has lost all credibility now using an isolated incident like that.  I think we can all say the same thing a few times in our life time, tcht!!
      Cheryl, funny how the less qualified (present entry criteria) still line up to be teachers.  Is it that this is all these can do?  And do not so really well since they want to block any attempt to be scrutinized or measure up to accountability?

      Reply

    • St. Michael says:

      02:05pm | 01/02/13

      The sneering about helicopter parents in particular is galling.  First teachers want parents to be involved in their kids’ educations, now they want them to piss off and not be involved?

    • Cheryl Critchley says:

      02:05pm | 01/02/13

      Haven’t you guys ever sat high-pressure exams? These calls mostly come when students are preparing for exams and my friend knows they will be stressing about it. She’d rather answer than let the student stress all night and get no sleep on the eve of exams or important assignment deadlines. It might be easy for some people to ignore such urgent queries, but teachers who do this actually care. It’s not just a job. It’s a responsiblity.

    • Cheryl Critchley says:

      03:36pm | 01/02/13

      St Michael you must have had a pretty traumatic time at school to have such a bad opinion of teachers. Of course teachers want parents to be involved. I’m talking about extreme parents who interfere nonstop and actually prevent teachers from doing their job. They literally tie them up with vexatious complaints or constantly tell them how to do their job. Parents who generally help and contribute to class life are alwys welcomed. Unfortunately the percentage who detract from class life is increasing. St Michael you should spend a week in a classroom to see what teachersput up with now and you’ll change your mind. And why do people like you always hide behind pseudonyms. If you are so proud of your views why don’t you put your name to them like I have???

    • St. Michael says:

      03:45pm | 01/02/13

      To which the answer is this, Ms. Critchley: if it’s not just a job but a responsibility, why don’t teachers get sued when students fail their subjects?

      Because the AEU will blame every other factor under the sun, be it the class size, economic characteristics of an area, or the student’s home environment for a child’s lack of progress.  By contrast, most professionals take enormous professional risks with every decision they make on behalf of a client, because they know and accept that the buck stops with them if they get it wrong.

    • St. Michael says:

      04:07pm | 01/02/13

      “Haven’t you guys ever sat high-pressure exams?”

      Many times.  And on no occasion would I have been bloody well ringing my teacher at 2 a.m. and asking for the answer to the problem.  Stress? Suck it up.  Anyone who went through a university degree or, you know, life, knows there’s more stress ahead in the next 20+ years of their lives that the little darlings won’t have a handy Phone Fairy around to help them deal with it.  Your friend needs to learn (dare I say it?) some professional boundaries.

    • St. Michael says:

      05:32pm | 01/02/13

      “If you are so proud of your views why don’t you put your name to them like I have???”

      I’ll do so right after all the AEU members in this thread disclose their full names and membership numbers, as well as where they teach, as well as the scores their students have gotten on uni entrance exams for the past five years.  And you might notice, Ms Critchley, that your supporters appear to enjoy hiding behind pseudonyms and first names just as much as your detractors do.  If you don’t like the critique, don’t post up to the Punch.

      And if you wouldn’t mind disclosing your actual teaching experience, that’d be good too.  Because your bio says you’re a freelance journalist.  It doesn’t mention you being a teacher.  That being so, your opinion—and it is an opinion site, after all—on what a teacher goes through is just as valid as mine.  Thus far you’ve produced a whole lot of opinion and not a lot of verifiable fact, which doesn’t put you far above the average Punch contribution in any event.

      I’m sorry that you can’t seem to argue facts or logic and have to start demanding I turn in my anonymity at the door.

    • Mikey says:

      11:42am | 01/02/13

      I have worked in the education sector - University and Registered Training Organisations.  My wife is (or rather was) a school teacher.

      It is my view that if school teachers are looking for a better deal, they should approach it from leveling the playing field and seeking to redress the imbalances between themselves and the rest of the working community.

      You say they work long hours?  Fine, get paid overtime and log the hours.  Also, reduce the annual leave to 4 weeks per year but make it available to be taken at any time.  Restructure assessment and reporting requirements to fit.  If they are on call, get paid an on call allowance.  Going on camp?  Fine, attend camp activities for 8 hours per day, get part timers in to cover the after hours work, or again get on call and overtime rates.  Establish measures for performance payments for high achievers.  And please, do not bring up the special needs classes.  Benchmark student groups entering a class, benchmark them on leaving - there is the bell curve, there you are as a teacher.

      Now apply the same hours, responsibilities and education levels to similar positions in the community and pay accordingly.

      Reply

    • Neil says:

      11:43am | 01/02/13

      The only teachers who should get a pay rise are senior level maths teachers that teach the hard stuff, and maybe physics and chemistry and high level english teachers. The rest of you are pussies.

      A PE teacher gets the same pay as a 4unit maths teacher! They’re the ones who should be complaining.

      Also, maybe if teachers weren’t a part of the PC/Marxist cult (sorry to the ones that aren’t), shoving PC down our kid’s throats, and being responsible for letting kids get away with murder these days, then you might get a bit more sympathy.

      Can’t say many of my teachers at high school were stressed out. The 4Unit maths guy was though, he would have made a good nazi. I say that in the nicest possible way.

      Reply

    • St. Michael says:

      11:50am | 01/02/13

      I am glad two words weren’t used in the article: “profession” or “professional”.  Some of the commenters since then have used those words to describe teachers.  They would be in error, which is probably why Ms Critchley didn’t use the words.  Professions are made up of professionals—i.e. folk like doctors or lawyers.  And the defining feature of professions is that the people who operate in them are paid large sums of money to achieve a particular result which can be directly attributed to their high skill and training, and who can be held accountable if they are negligent in the application of their skills.

      For example, you go to a doctor when you’re sick.  He looks you over, diagnoses Suburan Discontent Syndrome, and prescribes a medication.  You take the medication on his instructions, going back to him for review if need be, and you get better.  If the doctor prescribes the wrong medication, resulting in you dying or getting worse, the doctor’s own profession will ream him out and in most cases reprimand or throw him out of the profession entirely.  The doctor will not be able to rely on excuses such as you apparently being poorly-behaved while consulting him, you having bad parents, coming from a low socioeconomic area, or because they are treating too many patients at the time (in fact treating too many patients itself may well be a cause to reprimand the doctor to begin with).  The doctor will be assessed on his or her professional judgment, because that judgment leads to a result.

      Compare that to the frequent stories of home-schooled children achieving good academic results, not to mention the persistent whinges of the AEU that it’s class size or half a hundred other factors responsible for the student failing.  The more telling things are these: the AEU is demanding massive pay increases for doing the same job they call unacceptably crap and not supposedly part of teaching.  So they don’t want to just teach kids, they demonstrably want to be child care workers.  If you go to the government saying you’ll do toilet cleaning so long as you’re paid handsomely for it, don’t think that you’re entitled to be thought of as anything more than a toilet cleaner.  That’s the difference.

      The AEU is also resisting with all its might any suggestion that teaching *should* become a true profession, because it knows damn well (a) teaching isn’t one and (b) most of the mediocre teachers (who are also most of the union’s most vocal members) would die in a ditch rather than have their performance assessed on anything.

      “Whatever happens, the State Government and armchair critics can’t have it both ways. They want a world class education system, but complain when teachers take action to achieve it.”

      Teachers are not taking action to make a world class education system.  They are asking for a world class pay rate for third world work and third world standards given our literacy and numeracy levels across the board.  If you want to provide a world class education system, teaching has to be a true profession and you have to demonstrate that having a teacher has a particular skill that can be exercised for a direct causative improved result.

      Reply

    • Tim says:

      12:13pm | 01/02/13

      Exactly,
      without developing performance pay and KPI’s for teachers to show they are effective at their job, how can they possibly demand large pay increases across the board?

      They want to be treated as a homogenous group but be paid according to the skills of their best members.

    • Proud Teacher says:

      01:47pm | 01/02/13

      How would teaching performance pay work in the real world? I am not being facetious.

      For example, a teacher teaches extremely well throughout the year. However his/her class has a number of students who experience death in the family/divorce, and this trauma affects their ability to learn. The learning only ‘sinks in’ and is measurable the following year - when they have a crap teacher. So crap teacher would get the extra performance pay at the expense of the excellent first teacher?

      This is just one example of how fraught it can be to measure performance when you are dealing with children and learning. Many who are against performance pay - such as myself - take this position because they see how impossible it would be to truly reward good teachers in this manner.

      What could help, is giving principals the autonomy to hire/fire without the myriad hurdles preventing them from removing staid teachers and hiring bright, passionate ones.

      I agree that there are SOME teachers who would rather ‘die in a ditch’ than have their output analysed.

      I also note you seem to be a bit obsessed with the term ‘profession’. Here’s my two bob: most people I know and most teachers certainly do recognise teaching as a profession. A profession being something for which you need a university degree and a set of skills.

    • NSS says:

      01:48pm | 01/02/13

      St Michael, your contention sounds fine, in theory, however, I’d warrant the formulation and application of your “performance -based KPIs” and “professional accountability standards”  are much harder than your argument suggests. Do please tell us which criteria you would consider indicative of “poor performance? “ Percentage of low achievers in the class? But how is that determined, other than by the teachers assessment,  and these days when non-judgemental language is used, how do you determine the low from the high, when some are” consolidating”? Perhaps the teacher can only work with the students she/he is given, plus the amount of parental back-up which occurs? So ,parental dissatisfaction can be a problem in assessing teachers too, ie personality clashes and when they don’t uphold their end of the bargain. Do you see the problems?

      It is all very well to say teaching is not a profession like doctors and lawyers, however when the criteria for judgement are nebulous the definition becomes rubbery. Vocation? That implies a “calling”, like some sort of spiritual awakening, which not all teachers have either. Occupation?  Situation? Somehow, I feel the amount of training involved, which is ongoing ,warrants more than either of those. The nomenclature is unimportant, however. What is important is that teachers are respected and we pay them enough to hopefully weed out the potentially poor performers (not doubting that they exist. I’ve had experience with several myself,) at the recruitment and training stage.

    • Cheryl Critchley says:

      01:55pm | 01/02/13

      Why do people insist on denegrating teaching? Doctors, lawyers and other “professionals” who have chosen high paid careers were all taught by teachers, most of whom were dedicated to the task. If teachers were that bad then how do people get into law and medicine? Teachers ARE taking action to improve the system. If you continute to pay peanuts how can you expect to attract the best and brightest into teaching?

    • Brian says:

      02:41pm | 01/02/13

      Can’t see any reference to responsibility and accountability in any of the online definitions of professional (I’m sure you can find one, I only checked Wiktionary, Wikipedia, Dictionary.com and a couple of others who showed up on Google)... Wiktionary’s definition is:

      professional (plural professionals)

      1. A person who belongs to a profession
      2. A person who earns his living from a specified activity
      3. An expert.

      Going to take a look at ‘Profession’ garners:

      An occupation, trade, craft, or activity in which one has a professed expertise in a particular area; a job, especially one requiring a high level of skill or training.

      You can argue the nature of ‘high level of skill or training’ but even a poor university degree probably applies, relative to operating a checkout for example.

    • Pattem says:

      03:25pm | 01/02/13

      @St. Michael, and while NAPLAN is meant to be about children’s education and identifying shortcomings/gaps in their learning, why are teachers and the AEU nervous about its implementation?

      The potential that the NAPLAN may result in “Bad Teacher, you’re incompetent…” seems to be the key motivator driving the AEU’s stance on this issue.

      If one (unintended…maybe) result of NAPLAN is that incompetent teachers are identified, how is that a bad thing?

      Lawyers have the Bar,
      Accountants have the CPA
      Doctors have the MBA

      These bodies help to ensure accountability by these Professionals.

      Why shouldn’t teachers have a yardstick, if they want a professional pay-rate?

    • St. Michael says:

      04:03pm | 01/02/13

      @ Proud Teacher: Most of your points actually make mine stronger.  My point is that professionals are paid on performance, and teachers are not professionals.

      By dint of the fact you can’t attribute a student’s marks principally (pardon the pun) to a teacher’s skill, the teacher has no premium to put on their work which can be objectively valued.  A doctor or lawyer—the only real professions that existed before the word was bastardised—does.  Go to a doctor, get sick, get well, it’s generally’s the doctor’s fault one way or the other.  Go to a teacher.  If you get a bad mark, according to the AEU it’s never the teacher’s fault, but if you get a good mark it’s always the teacher’s “skills”.  Teachers are not true “professionals” as many people seem to believe they are.

      @ NSS:

      “What is important is that teachers are respected and we pay them enough to hopefully weed out the potentially poor performers (not doubting that they exist. I’ve had experience with several myself,) at the recruitment and training stage.”

      Okay, so let me get this straight: in order to weed out poor performers, all you plan to do is pay all teachers, including the poor performers, more money?

      @ Cheryl Critchley: “Doctors, lawyers and other “professionals” who have chosen high paid careers were all taught by teachers, most of whom were dedicated to the task”

      For someone in support of teaching you have a severe problem with simple logic.  Doctors and lawyers were taught by teachers.  However, so was murderer, fraudster, drug dealer and other scumbag who ever graced a criminal court with his presence.  As were the no-hopers who presently have no gainful employment at all.  If you’re going to claim the doctors and lawyers, you have to claim the others as well.  Fail.

      As it is: most doctors and lawyers did not become so due to teachers.  They became so because they went to university, listened to rather more advanced teachers called ‘lecturers’, and then served long apprenticeships before being let loose on an unsuspecting public.  That, too, is the mark of a professional.

      “If you continute to pay peanuts how can you expect to attract the best and brightest into teaching?”

      You won’t.  Per the stats I’ve given from TISC and elsewhere, it is a substandard cohort of school graduates that are now applying for teaching.  (Said substandard cohort having been taught by the Elite Teaching Fraternity who also taught doctors, etc.)

      To fix it, it’s as simple as getting 30% over 4 years in pay negotiations.  Teachers much themselves establish they have a marketable skill that produces a particular skill, consistently, and charge a premium for that.  For example: every private coaching tutor who charges kids to help them with exam preparation.  That class of individuals—curiously absent from your diatribe—is closer to a professional teacher than a bog standard government one will ever be, because parents pay directly for results from them.

      @ Brian:

      “Can’t see any reference to responsibility and accountability in any of the online definitions of professional…”

      Take that sparklingly witty argument before either (a) your local Legal Practice Board or (b) your local Medical Board and see how far you get.  There you will get a real definition of what a professional is.  And teachers as presently constituted do not fit into that description.

    • Tim says:

      04:20pm | 01/02/13

      Proud teacher,
      you come up with a number of KPI’s for the teacher to accomplish during the year with their principal as supervisor.

      Unless you’re teaching kindergarten, an idea of the student’s ability will already have been gauged the previous year so it should be possible to determine whether a class is significantly below or above average before the year begins. Over the years it will even itself out.

      Extraneous occurences will be taken into account at performance review time with the principal and perhaps independent reviewers.

      Of course there’ll be problems but the same thing occurs in nearly every other profession. I have no idea why teachers wouldn’t want to have their ability, output and performance measured so they can advance in pay and seniority. Unless they know they aren’t performing

    • Brian says:

      05:22pm | 01/02/13

      No, St. Michael, there I will get the definition of ‘Legal Professional’ and ‘Medical Professional’, neither of which I would suggest that teachers are. Perhaps I should add the International Olympic Committee? They have a definition too. Just because your definition matches a specific body’s (and I can’t find any link to what they would consider a professional, anyway - they generally avoid using the term to describe people anyway, preferring to use it to describe conduct) doesn’t make it the only correct interpretation.

    • NSS says:

      05:41pm | 01/02/13

      @St Mick Read what I wrote again. Decent wages are an incentive to attract a better calibre of person to the profession and keep the talented in the job. There are already plenty of disincentives for teachers.

      Also, itt’s your opinion that teachers aren’t “professionals”. Many would disagree. They simply aren’t doctors nor lawyers. It’s a false equivalency you’re espousing.

      @pattem and Tim. I suggest you read this Punch piece http://www.thepunch.com.au/articles/my-problem-with-the-naplan-tests/
      It may open your eyes a tad in regards to the reasons why NAPLAN and the like are poor indicators of performance of teachers and schools.

    • Proud Teacher says:

      06:48pm | 01/02/13

      Tim,

      How are these circumstances going to be taken into account? What about those that are unknown - problems at home, parental disharmony? Will a teacher be able to sue for not getting performance pay when it eventuates that little Johnny was being sexually abused during his year in his/her class, thus severely affecting his ability to learn and creating a ripple effect when his behaviour affected others?

      What of the schools that promote team teaching to the point that a teacher who can’t ‘collaborate’ effectively brings down the performance of his or her otherwise hardworking and bright team? 

      Why not, as I’ve previously noted, allow principals more autonomy to hire the best and get rid of the deadwood? Why not ensure that principals are effective and knowledgable - rather than being Dept of Ed drones - who have enough balls to defend good teachers instead of being held to ransom by a vocal and generally ignorant minority of parents?

      The idea of performance pay appealed initially - what ambitious and dedicated professional would not want the opportunity to be adequately rewarded? Unfortunately, it is impractical in reality, as has been documented by other countries who have rued the ‘performance pay’ experiment.

    • Andrew says:

      12:11pm | 01/02/13

      Cheryl “I would usually work close to 60 hours a week and we are paid for 38 hours,” she says.

      @Cheryl Really? 60 hours a week for 46 weeks a year?

      Something has happened with teaching over the centuries.  A teacher was well educated with high skills.  Something happened though, other jobs required higher skills, mechanics were dealing with satellite data, tradies run PTY LTD companies.

      The difference is that most teachers are wage earners. Many other jobs now require much much higher skills, are ‘contract’ and earnings represent gross revenue.

      Teachers have the choice to leave. A teaching degree doesn’t mean you have to work in a school. 

      I ran into a teacher in a night school class that taught me in high school.  He was still bitching about the pay. 

      One other teacher left high school and bought into a franchise.  The business collapsed 4 years later.

      Teachers can be so self righteous, so patronising, such whiners yet they wont leave their wage job.  Its the same old oak, every time.

      If the grass is greener, step into private free enterprise with the wolves.

      Dont whine, you don’t know what you got.

      Reply

    • Jerrie says:

      01:13pm | 01/02/13

      Poor teachers. Seriuosly. As most here see them as basically babysitters, why not pay them babysitting hourly rates… How about ..umm $8.00 per hour per student. 8x32=? Multiply that by… Say 6.5 hours per day, then x by five days a week and again x it by four weeks a month. Now x that by 10 months per year. If you can do this… Thank a teacher.

      Reply

    • St. Michael says:

      02:07pm | 01/02/13

      More precisely, thank a teacher who taught you before they all started demanding children bring in calculators to primary school, and stopped teaching rote memorisation of the times tables.

    • Andrew says:

      02:16pm | 01/02/13

      @Jerrie The irony of that is that is teachers cost more than that.  This is the wages mentality, a very different what you are paid hourly and the costs of each employee.

      $51200 approx gross revenue =($256pd*200days(students attend 39 weeks x 5 days))
      then start deducting superannuation, insurances, etc etc

      So what Teachers contracting would have gross revenue about $4000 a week for each week they are officially working?

      Some do the real figures. Someone has them.

    • Bho Ghan-Pryde says:

      02:22pm | 01/02/13

      $8/hour for baby sitting Jerrie? My daughter charges and gets $20/hour. Someones getting a raw deal with your babysitting.

    • Additup says:

      05:36pm | 01/02/13

      @ andrew…... Real figures???? If you calculate this equation, teachers would be earning over $350,000 a year, for only 10 months pay.

      It is even higher if you calculate it @ $20.00 an hour.

    • Addeditup says:

      06:01pm | 01/02/13

      @ jerrie

      How is this?
      $8 x 32 = $256
      $256 x 6.5 = $1664
      $1664 x 5 = $8,320
      $8,320 x 4 = $33,280
      $33,280 x 10 = $332,280

      I will have something like that please!

    • expat says:

      03:03pm | 01/02/13

      If you don’t like the income, get another job!

      When you went to university to study you were well aware of the situation that you were walking into.

      Reply

    • Anubis says:

      03:16pm | 01/02/13

      The author states that ” teachers are fighting to ensure the best and brightest are attracted into the industry.”

      Does that mean then that we can get rid of the deadwood teachers who are hopelessly out of their depth when it comes to actually imparting what little knowledge they possess (like 75% of teachers I have met) and just got into teaching because it was the only course that would accept them?

      Reply

    • Andrew says:

      03:27pm | 01/02/13

      @Bho Ghan-Pryde

      Yeah, so someone rings up, can I have you for 4 hours baby sitting. You spend $10 in petrol getting there. You pay 20% of it in tax.

      If your daughter burns down their house with the children in it, what happens then?

      The contract world is a universe apart for a 8-5pm wage position.

      For a start, you reapply for your job every job, which may be 5 hours.

      People dont understand the difference between wages & contract. You nearly need to add 50% & some to contract hourly rates.

      Imagine being a teacher to be rung up, can you come in for 3 hours?

      Its not apples with apples? Do people not understand?

      Reply

    • Spanner says:

      04:16pm | 01/02/13

      All during my school years I struggled with math, English and just about everything else. Each schooldays was an agony; it affected my health in ways you can’t imagine. The only shining light was Mrs. Hurley who looked past my shortcomings and saw potential, until then unrecognised. She saw that l was not good with cryptic subjects and recommended to my parents to put me into a technical school. God bless her because there l flourished. I retire next year after spending 50 years in the manufacturing industry, the last 30 as an engineering draftsman. When l think back I can only remember two of my teachers, Mrs Hurley and the prick (name withheld) that use to beat me. So I guess there is good and bad teachers but Mrs Hurley was worth ten times more than (name withheld).

      Reply

    • Cramps says:

      04:22pm | 01/02/13

      Possibly the dumbest thing I’ve read on the punch and there have been a couple of doozies. Completely uninformed tripe, you might as well print press release from teachers’ union.

      Reply

    • porloc says:

      05:14pm | 01/02/13

      Contract replacement teachers get $252 in Victoria for a seven hour day. They are on continuously, do not get guaranteed breaks and can be given any number of students.The minimum employment is three hours, the maximum a continuous thirteen weeks. They are quite popular with administrations because they’re cheap, don’t go on strike and there’s an endless supply of them.

      Reply

    • Cheryl Critchley says:

      06:44pm | 01/02/13

      For those claiming teachers don’t have their performance assessed I just spoke to another teacher friend who says their performance is reviewed every year by their principal, so they are monitored annually. I’m just sad that so many people seem to have a pathalogical hatred of the teaching profession which is often based on a lack of knowledge of what it is really like. My parents were dedicated teachers and I have many friends who teach or have taught so I have seen first hand what the do. I am now seeing this through my kids’ teachres, all of whom have been fantastic and spent many hours going above and beyond (my oldest is now in year 9 and they all go to government schools). As well as all the extra meetings and other crap, the teachers always do something personal for each kid at the end of the year. One made the kids a DVD with highlights of their year; and another gave every kid in the grade a clock and a long personalised Christmas message. These things take hours and hours and the kids remember them forever. Yes there are some teachers who do the bare minimum but they are unlikely to last very long in the current system. I just wish people quick to condemn them on the basis of extra holidays and so-called low uni entrance scores would look a bit deeper.

      Reply
 
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