Cover your humps in lycra to keep the boys at bay

Craig Cooper says:

07:54am | 05/06/09

It is rather strange isn’t it Alex.  Pubescent boys and girls wanting to touch each other.  When did this start happening? Where did the world go wrong? 

The solution:

We need to give more money to the genetic research into finding the gene/s responsible for this outrageous behaviour.  The future will be so much brighter when we finally manage to completely rid modern society of this archaic and pointless drive to reproduction.

John says:

08:26am | 05/06/09

Great article Alex, nice to see some moderation being dealt out in the midst of this outrage pandemic.

My only argument with your piece is right at the end where you say that the saddest part of the conversation you had with your 14 year-old brother was that he knew what you were talking about when it came to “willing participation”. I don’t necessarily see it as a bad thing that at a young age, kids are starting to learn what is or isn’t acceptable behaviour when interacting with the opposite number. In my teenage years, er fifteen odd years ago, it just wasn’t talked about. You literally had to fumble around in the dark, no pun intended, with a bit of guesswork and advice from your pimply pre-teen moral compass as to what was or wasn’t “cool” in that department.

I think if kids are getting a message that “take things too far and it doesn’t matter if you’re Matthew Johns or Mahatma Gandhi, bad things are bound to come”, then that’s not necessarily a bad thing. Especially during the younger, habit forming years. But I agree, let’s not make monsters out of the little whipper snappers. They’re not all marauding sex-offenders in the making, they’re just tying to figure things out as best they can.

Eric says:

09:42am | 05/06/09

Men are being unfairly painted as brutes, as you acknowledge. It’s good to see a defence of the male sex, albeit a rather tepid one.

I’d like to see something a bit stronger, pointing out the lies and distortions of feminists, and the massive anti-male bias in almost all areas of society. That’s pretty rare in the mainstream.

Naomi says:

09:48am | 05/06/09

I disagree that “When girls come home with a newsletter saying they have to wear assault-proof clothes to dances there is only one thing they will take from that: Boys are scary, predatory, to be avoided.”

They are also getting the message that, should they be assaulted, what they chose to wear will be evaluated for a message of complicity.

Jessica says:

11:09am | 05/06/09

In reply to Eric’s comment.

Massive anti-male bias in society? You’ve got to be kidding. I could bark on about the struggle of women throughout history for hours but one thing i will say to this incredibly ignorant comment is, look at the reaction to the Matthew Johns case. a lot of people have vilified the woman involved. to think that when a women comes out and reveals something awful that happened to her, people turn to accuse her of bringing it on herself while others are patting Matthew Johns on the back saying “oh good on you mate for apologising’” it was really awful to see the back slapping on the footy show after the pathetic display from Johns and i do have some sympathy for him, but its never long before its less about what he did and more about trying to spin it around to make it the woman’s fault.

I agree with Alex that young teenagers are more than likely to explore their sexual curiosity despite what most adults or organisations or the media will say, and that this isn’t always going to be a bad thing. i think that if we further educate both girls and boys about sexual behaviour and what is and isn’t OK then we would probably see at least a slight improvement in attitudes to females and sex in overly masculine cultures like most of the football codes and even in all boys schools.

the fact is that being a teenager can be a tough gig at times and often teens don’t fully understand the ramifications of their actions which is why the age of consent is 17 (in SA i think could be different in other states) trying to give teens a bit more time to mature so that they are aware of the consequences of being involved in physical/sexual relationships. With so much sex in music, television, films, advertising its no wonder kids are confused about sex and that they develop these unhealthy attitudes, and it’s not just boys but girls as well. The onus is on each and every parent to do the best by their kids, have the awkward conversations, get the tough issues clear and help your kids to develop in a positive way.

Lachlan says:

11:29am | 05/06/09

Dressing provocatively, whether teenagers or adults, carries with it certain risks that the wearer of those clothes ought to be responsible for. And if they’re too young to realise this, they should be taught by their parents. Bicycle shorts is a bit of an alarmist overreaction, but surely parents have a responsibility to make sure their daughters don’t go to a dance dressed like harlots, indeed as they would be that their sons don’t go to a dance expecting to get some ‘action’ without consent. The fact is, there are a small minority of boys and men who don’t respect the morality of consent. You can’t tell these people just by looking at them. Therefore, don’t inadvertently advertise to them that you’re easy, or ‘asking for it’.

Jessica says:

11:45am | 05/06/09

Perhaps this is just another case of a minority ruining things for the majority.  I’m sure most men/boys are not hanging around in gangs to nab drunken women or to feel up their school mates bike shorts but i guess we still have to take action because of the ones who are. It’s unfortunate really.

Candice says:

12:16pm | 05/06/09

Lachlan, to be quite frank, you’re a moron. A woman should be able to wear whatever she likes and not be subjected to sexual assault. Or are you saying that rape is ok if the woman is lying on a beach in her bikini?

There is no justification for sexual assault in any circumstance. Perhaps you should have a read of this http://www.kemh.health.wa.gov.au/services/sarc/documents/info_for_men.pdf

Alison says:

12:16pm | 05/06/09

The whole John’s debacle is not just a shame for Australian men (or men in general); it’s a shame for everybody. To think that this sort of thing can be so poorly handled by the media, by the NRL, and also by the New Zealand police is just appalling. Also the idea that this is supposedly a morally ambiguous issue is simply ludicrous. The judgements made by the people involved in this situation were appalling and even if there was some level of consent involved after John’s had finished with her and then left her with the other 11 men, there is something wrong with a man of his age and supposed level of responsibility in his team thinking that is ok .

What rule is there that says in order to be a team grown men need to penetrate in groups? Is this just for sportsman? Would they do that with their wives? Would it be ok then? Do they have group parties where girlfriends’ and wives are shared round in drunken club house orgies? Clearly Johns and friends were taking advantage of somebody and they weren’t sorry because they got their fill and then moved out the way for the next guy. Whether or not you are a man or a woman the thought of something terrible happening to you and people vilifying you for speaking about it is horrible.

John’s blubbering on channel 9 was absolutely disgusting. He might not be a fundamentally bad man, but his actions were horrific and his embarrassment and hurt at the whole situation is obviously much more about the damage it has done to him and his media career than the damage done to the young woman involved. I have heard some awful things said about the woman involved in the Johns case and I am absolutely disgusted by the opportunism of the anti feminists that loiter around for this kind of opportunity (see Eric) Not all men are bad. Some of them are, some of them gang rape women.  Lots of them don’t and as far as Eric’s comment goes perhaps he can start writing about some of his experiences of being discriminated against as a man. I’m a feminist and I am proud of that, I don’t hate men at all and I know they are not all bad, but this ultra masculine culture of football codes and the sporting community in general gives a particular version of masculinity and men a bad name. The only people that have the ability to change that is them. Take some responsibility, if you want to change the discourse the behaviour has to change first and the only way to do that is to educate. So what if the sex etiquette classes are in overdrive? Obviously there is an issue that needs to be addressed and I wouldn’t want to be the HR department who does nothing and then something happens in their work place. It’s better to be safe than sorry.

Lachlan says:

01:48pm | 05/06/09

Candice, sorry to have upset you.  I wasn’t saying women couldn’t wear what they like. I was saying parents have a responsibility to make sure their daughters were not vulnerable. Just because men or boys shouldn’t assault women (or men for that matter), doesn’t mean that it doesn’t or won’t happen. Your point about wearing a bikini on a beach I have to admit is a good one, but the difference I see there is that you don’t usually go to the beach primarily to get lucky with the opposite sex, whereas for single person this might play a big part in going to a dance.

Candice says:

02:30pm | 05/06/09

Lachlan, the problem is your original post says things like “certain risks that the wearer of those clothes ought to be responsible for” and “don’t inadvertently advertise to them that you’re easy”. While I understand you’re not saying that is the right way to think, you’re still enabling that attitude by suggesting that women should change the way they dress because there are rapists out there. This has been compared to suggesting kids shouldn’t act like kids because that might be prevocative to paedophiles. You’re getting into dangerous territory.

John Greenfield says:

03:17pm | 05/06/09

Candice, a man should be able to leave his car keys on top of his Mercedes when she goes shopping in the Bronx, Redfern or Sunshine, without some woman stealing it.

See, we can all play this game.

Chris says:

03:45pm | 05/06/09

I actually agree with Lachlan’s point about the difference between what is appropriate attire for an environment like the beach, and what is appropriate for a school dance etc.

I think context is a very important point in this whole debate. It’s the reason we somehow don’t swear as much when our grandparents are in ear shot, and why we set out the good cutlery when dear friends drop by, instead of serving them up slop in front of the tube.

Take context away from the situation and it’s a very easy argument to say - if you even remotely agree with laying some sort of responsibility on the females in the situation, then you’re suddenly getting into “dangerous territory”. The paedophile argument Candice I think is a little too sensationalist and pretty much the gist of the entire article in the first place.

Alison says:

05:27pm | 05/06/09

The idea that women should be more or less responsible for the actions of others is absurd. What is the point of leaving your keys on the top of your shiny Mercedes? Women (people) are not bits of property to be left lying around. It is dangerous to shift the responsibility for the actions which are harmful to one person onto that person when it is entirely not their fault. It is dangerous to make it acceptable to say but she was wearing this, she made herself vulnerable. Is it the victim’s responsibility for what has happened to them? Ok so if you go with an argument like this you have to assume a few things.

A – All men are rapists
B – You are not a woman walking down the street you are a potential victim
C – cover your entire body everywhere you go, don’t drink, don’t draw attention to yourself, don’t go out alone, don’t go out at night, don’t talk to anybody you don’t know etc etc etc

If it were Mr. Greenfield’s daughter or wife I am sure his line of argument would change. We need to be able to be sensible with ourselves but there is only so much we can do to stop somebody who is intending to do harm to us from doing so.

The context of this issue is everyday and everyday people should be expected to take responsibility for their own actions towards and should reasonably be able to expect consideration from others in return i.e don’t rape me

John Greenfield says:

06:27pm | 05/06/09

Alison

I can assure you if I were to discover my daughter or wife were hanging around the men’s dunnies at Leagues Clubs or inviting groups of footballers back to hotel rooms, she would be not be seeing the car keys or even outside the house or her bedroom for a VERY long time!

Daniel says:

09:07pm | 05/06/09

I dont mind group sex and think it is actually quite good in private. Not when you are getting paid a fortune & are a role model to younger sporting kids coming through the ranks. These idiots should have known better.

adrian says:

04:08am | 06/06/09

John, as an aside, ever wondered why many young women are being caught out hanging around men’s dunnies? Cocaine.

Sure, Alison, a woman can pretty much wear whatever she likes but only a total dope places fashion before safety first.

We all employ risk minimisation as a first priority in the workplace, yet for some it’s only a secondary consideration in their private life !?

Eric says:

09:49am | 06/06/09

One could change Chris’ analogy a little.

A man should be able to walk down a dark alley in Kings Cross at 2am, waving a handful of $100 notes, in perfect safety.

Yet any man who did so would be regarded as a fool.

There is a difference between “should” and “is”.

John Greenfield says:

12:51pm | 06/06/09

adrian, are you suggesting my daughter/wife is merely a ‘coke whore’? Phew. In that case, I shall be more lenient, and return the car keys and allow them out of the house a bit earlier.

OTOH, your explanation could also be a cause of why their distress sometimes makes its way to our TV screens years later

John Greenfield says:

12:57pm | 06/06/09

Besides, modern etiquette demands that a gentleman discreetly pass the lady his stash, so she may repair to the more salubrious surrounds of the ladies loo to powder her nose. 

janet says:

02:47pm | 07/06/09

How quickly some women forget what their mothers told them. If you are going to dress like a tramp you will be treated like one…under no circumstances would I allow any of my children to dress inappropriately. Sorry, but the truth sometimes hurts.