Shane Scott almost made it. He was just 700m from his home when the motorbike he was riding - after drinking six or seven cans of Jack Daniels and cola at the pub - left the road. He died.

The Australian's Peter Nicholson today

Before getting on his bike he had argued with the publican and convinced him to let him make the 7km ride home. Shortly before giving him the keys, the publican had asked for his wife’s phone number so he could give her a call and get her to come pick Scott up. Scott’s response, according to the publican, was: “If I want you to ring my f**kin’ wife, I’d f**kin’ ask ya.”

But crucially, according to people who were there that night, Scott didn’t seem drunk. He told the publican he was fine to ride home. Now the High Court has decided the publican shouldn’t be held responsible for what happened in a ruling that backs what any bartender working under responsible service laws will tell you - it’s often impossible to tell when someone is on their ear.

There are elements of that scene at Triabunna on Tasmania’s east coast that play out in pubs across the country every night of the week: the patron who appears sober but isn’t, the concerned publican who tries to do the right thing, and a short argument of no apparent consequence.

And less frequent but still too often there are tragic decisions - like Scott’s - to insist on trying to drive home after a skinful.

As I said, tragic. But don’t the ads say, “Drink, Drive, bloody idiot”?

The case against the publican boiled down to this: “Drink, drive, blame the bloody bartender.”

On one hand we’ve had police and politicians arguing drinkers need to take more personal responsibility while down in the courts insurers and lawyers have been arguing - often to financial gain - that the blame for someone being drunk should rest with anyone but the person doing the drinking.

This decision by the High Court squares the legal environment with broader public opinion. It’s refreshing to have something to applaud from our learned friends.

Some more details from the facts of the case are below and you can read the judgment in full here.

Scott had been having a few drinks after finishing his day’s work at the local council. He’d put his bike in a lock-up and told the publican he’d get his wife to come pick him up. Then, according to witness testimony, there was what the judges called a “significant incident”. This is it, in detail:

Mr Scott appeared “friendly and normal”. Mr Scott then left the public bar. He returned 10 or 15 minutes later and placed his head on his hands on the bar. The Licensee came into the bar, told Mr Scott he had had enough, said it was time to go home, and asked for Mrs Scott’s telephone number so that she could be contacted to come and get him. According to [witness] Mrs Thirlway, Mr Scott said: “If I want my wife I’ll f**ken ring her myself”. According to the Licensee, after he had asked Mr Scott whether he wanted him to ring Mrs Scott, Mr Scott became agitated and said: “If I want you to ring my f**kin’ wife, I’d f**kin’ ask ya.”

The Licensee responded: “Whoo hang on, whoo, whoo, whoo, this is not, you know, don’t go crook at me, this is not the arrangement that was made.” Mrs Thirlway told Mr Scott that the Licensee was only trying to do the right thing. Mr Scott then directed to Mrs Thirlway “a bit of a rant about the local council” – “a bit of a hate session about the local council and the local community”. Mrs Thirlway said he had changed “very quickly”, he “fired up all of a sudden”, he became agitated, angry, stroppy and sufficiently strange and unpleasant for her not to want to talk to him again. Mrs Thirlway did not want to be involved in a confrontation and tried to ignore Mr Scott. Mr Scott put his head back on the bar and went quiet.

Importantly, the judges add: “Mrs Thirlway did not notice any signs of intoxication in Mr Scott, either before he left the public bar or after he returned.”

Over to you.

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24 comments

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    • E says:

      12:30pm | 11/11/09

      I wonder what happened between leaving and returning to the pub? Thats the interesting bit of this story, and its missing :(

      Condolenses to the man involved’s family.

    • Tim says:

      12:35pm | 11/11/09

      Its a miracle,
      I can’t believe these judges actually excercised some common sense for a change.
      Make your own decisions, take responsibility for the consequences.

    • Brian B says:

      12:46pm | 11/11/09

      Absolutely the right decision.
      The bartender or publican should not be held responsible for a patron’s judgement on driving or any other matter. It’s called personal responsibility.

    • rob says:

      12:49pm | 11/11/09

      It’s about time society manned up and started to act sensibly. Anyone that is stupid enough or confident enough to get behind a wheel or on a bike after drinking deserves everything that is coming their way. How can you blame a publican for that?
      I went to the bottle shop the other night and bought 2 cases of beer. The young girl serving said to me “big night planned?” and I repled with “well i’ll try not to drink them all”. suppose I’d have gotten back in my ute, drank them all and crashed into a wall. would she be to blame for not stopping me?
      no.
      of course not. we’ve extended ourselves as a society so far into the ridiculous situation we are in now, that these things have to go to court for judges and jurors to decide upon. what happened to normal thinking. what happened to common sense.
      and why considering i’m only 32 do i sound like my parents already!

    • N says:

      12:55pm | 11/11/09

      According to reports Mr Scotts BAC was > 0.2, which is pretty significant and a little hard to believe no one thought he was drunk. Frankly if I were in the bartenders shoes (and I have been before), I would have handed over the keys after such an abusive barrage.
      It’s a difficult court decision, but I think they made the right choice. The publican went above and beyond in his attempts to get Mr Scott home safely, in the end you can’t force someone who doesn’t want your help.

    • Dave says:

      01:47pm | 11/11/09

      I have performed blood alcohols on people [not breath tests, blood tests] and been amazed at results up around 0.45, with the patient appearing only mildly intoxicated.  Usually this is closer to dead!  A lot depends on how much the individual drinks on a regular basis, how much of a tolerance the individual has built up.

      If the Mr Scott was a regular, excessive drinker, then he could have had a 0.2 without even noticing it, let alone the licensee.

    • SR says:

      01:51pm | 11/11/09

      I agree that the driver is to blame for his own death, but I do ponder some questions about it.  Given the fact that society has a major focus on alcohol related crime and driving while intoxicated (ie topic to drop limit from 0.05 to 0.02 - both which in this case I might add are irrelevant) I put this to you, if the man at the bar was driving a big rig and the publican did the same thing and on the way home the driver killed ‘x’ number of children do you think that the personal responsibility of the publican would be more scrutinised and even possibly be held liable for knowingly and willingly doing nothing to prevent a reasonably foreseeable tragedy (after all why do we have laws regulating BAC when operating vehicles or responsible service of alcohol laws).

      The facts indicate that the publican knew how much alcohol was consumed by the driver (small town, not many patrons), knew the patron shouldn’t be driving (wanted to call the drivers wife) and did not even do so much as to make a phone call to the police to report a dangerous crime. If a person does not murder someone but knows that someone has been murdered but fails to report that murder then that person is guilty. Just something to ponder?

    • Matt says:

      01:53pm | 11/11/09

      If you read the case in full you’ll see that even if he had been demonstrably intoxicated, the publican would still have been breaking the law if he refused to return Mr Scott’s keys and motorcycle.  Only a police officer is allowed to prevent a citizen from using a vehicle on the basis of their intoxication.  I was also pleased to see the judges comments that: “Balancing the pleasures of drinking with the importance of minimising the harm that may flow to a drinker is also a matter of personal decision and individual responsibility”.  We have a right to get drunk but must bear the responsibility of any consequences that ensue.

    • AFR says:

      02:06pm | 11/11/09

      Just finished reading the case (had to for work - not just being a smartarse smile ). My intepreatation is that it won’t affect RSA laws as they currently stand. The circumstances in this case were extreme and unusual, and several of the judges at the supreme and high court levels noted that the publican could have done a bit more. The defence that the publican by law HAD to give the bike back is not an overly valid one. There is plenty of precendent where one breaks a law to preserve human life is acceptable. The publican also could have called his wife. He knew the patron was smashed. For a large part of the time, he was the only customer.

      All in all, I agree with the decision of the high court, but its not the “boanza” that the media are saying it is. Also, a life has been tragically lost here - we should lose sight of that.

    • Todd says:

      02:37pm | 11/11/09

      AFR - I read the case as well - the publican did not have the wife’s phone number - paragraph 18 and Mr Scott was abusive when asked for it. 

      Other people present (Mrs Kube and Mrs Thirlway) did not notice Mr Scott was noticebly intoxicated.  So the publican did not ‘know’ the patron was smashed, and asked three times if Mr Scott was right to ride.  Mr Scott had also earlier refused an offer of a lift home by Mrs Kube.

      The Court said that the publican was not allowed to use force to deny Mr Scott his motorcycle.

      You don’t work for one of the anti-alcohol groups do you?

    • helt says:

      02:59pm | 11/11/09

      Its about time personal responsibility was enforced in a court of law. For the longest time people have wiilingly trashed themselves and the blmrd it on the pubs clubs and hotels. I have worked for 13 years in clubs and not one have I seen a publican force a drink down anyones throat. Its a tragedy this fellow died but it was all his own doing. Its like the black list for violent pubs. You cant tell who is a jerk who cant handle alchohol just by looking. Its about time people started blaming the jerks for being jerks instead of finding someone else to blame

    • SM says:

      03:11pm | 11/11/09

      It would seem as though the facts as presented in this case support the conclusions and subsequent decision reached by the court.

      That said, there remains a massive problem in this country with regards to the responsible service of alcohol.  Specifically, those problems relate to the conflict of interest that exists by having those who profit from the sale of alcohol being effectively allowed to police themselves with regards those sales

    • AFR says:

      03:13pm | 11/11/09

      Todd - considring how much I drink, I highly doubt I would be “anti-alcohol”. I actually work in a line of work that generally puts me in support of publicans.

      Like I said earlier, I agree with the judgement. It is a “win” for common sense.

      But I just think that there were things that the publican could have done better, especially considering his many years experience (of course with the benefit of hindsight). If you serve someone 7 cans of RTDs in a couple of hours, and see them with their head on the bar etc, and given you’re the ONLY person serving them (for most of the time), i’m sorry, but you should know they are drunk. As for not calling the wife, well that’s neither here nor there at the end of the day, but when you live in small community, getting someone’s phone number is not difficult.

    • Andrew Goff says:

      03:24pm | 11/11/09

      See the problem with putting the responsibility solely on the individual is: what if he runs into a pedestrian and kills them as well? What did the 3rd party do? Nothing of course.

      There are options of course: but how does mandatory jail time for any drunk drivers sound? Hmmmmmm.

    • davido says:

      09:11pm | 11/11/09

      This is a weird set of facts.

      On the one hand the licensee said the victim had HAD enough. He CUTS the victim off. BUT he then hands OVER the keys to the victim’s motorbike?

      The keys had been given to the licensee to PROTECT the victim from himself. If the licensee didnt want that duty he shouldnt have accepted the keys.

      It seems to me that if you think the patron is drunk enough to CUT them off. Then it seems reasonable to conclude that they are too drunk to drive safely.

      AND Of course we know the victim was too drunk to drive safely!

    • johnsa says:

      11:48pm | 11/11/09

      Another big win for the insurance companies.

      That is the guys who take your money every month, spend it on flash cars and never pay out.

      They must be laughing all the way to the bank.

    • JN says:

      05:10am | 12/11/09

      it also states that there was an agreement that the patron could drink only if his wife was to pick him up from the bar…
      The patron left the bar and came back a short time later and had his head in his arms.. to me, this shows a sign of depression while drunk… no one knows what happened in this time he was gone, but for the reaction shown by the patron to backlash the publican the way he did.
      Clearly the patron was drunk, but nobody could tell if he was or not except the publican who might of had an idea, if he was the only person who had served him the alcohol the whole time.
      The patron was angry at the publican and after a response like that, the publican still has a duty of care to not only the patron, but to also the other patrons in the pub and to himself.. i myself am a security guard/bouncer (whatever you want to call us), and i have seen and been involved with alot of drunk people where they are nice and calm one minute, and the next, they are ready to punch someone in the face.

      i believe the publican could of felt threatened by the patron and as a duty of care to the other patrons within the pub, he handed back the keys to avoid any sort of violence, because i have found if a drunk patron doesn’t get what he wants, then he will do whatever it takes to get it.

      Now think about this, what if the publican didn’t hand back the keys like he did. The patron was already fired up shown by his words after the publican had asked for his wifes number so she could come and pick him up and also in the statement by a witness (Mrs Thirlway). If the publican had not done what he did, things could of turned out with maybe a fight where someone else could of been hurt or killed. yes the patron would of only been thrown in jail and been locked up and still alive, but then that means the publican has not shown a duty of care to the other patrons and could be sued for something else where he would not of had a chance of winning and could possible have to shut down if he had not taken the actions that he did…

      The courts have made the right decision in this case, and i believe the publican did the right thing cause its what i would of done in his situation because he still had a duty of care to everyone else. not just 1 person!!!

    • Jolanda says:

      07:10am | 12/11/09

      I guess given the outcome and in hindsight the publican no doubt wishes he never gave the patron the keys but at the end of the day if the person was aggressive and demanded his keys - what is the publican supposed to do - fight him?  The patron could have left the bar and rung his wife - that he went out and jumped on his bike is a choice he made and he has paid the ultimate price. 

      I just hope that this means that there will be a shift in culture and that people will have to start taking responsiblity for thier actions. 

      The whole culture of not taking responsiblity has been groomed and developed by our Government who like to get away with everything and blame anybody or anything but themselves for thier actions and or inaction. 

      Here is hoping that some common sense is returning to our Judicial process and system.

      Education - Keeping them Honest
      http://jolandachallita.typepad.com/education/
      Our children deserve better

    • yosemite says:

      10:31am | 12/11/09

      This is an outrageous decision.

      How are the poor struggling members of the bar going to afford a new Bentley every year if they can’t get into some of these juicy compensation cases?

    • johnsa says:

      12:04pm | 12/11/09

      The right thing for the publican to do would have been:

      1. not serve enough booze so the man got to a level of .2

      if not 1 then:

      2. refuse to hand over the keys. If the patron got angry… call the cops. That is what they are for.

      if not 2 then:

      3. the licensee should not have accepted responsibility for preventing the man to drive. Giving false protection is no protection.

      The patron exercised GOOD judgment in handing over his keys. He was trying to protect himself.

      The people applauding this decision have been hoodwinked by the big insurance companies. Most of these people read the big headlines and not the detail behind the story. They are jealous of so called big payouts.

      The reality is most victims rarely get compensated, if they do it hardly ever ‘rewards’ them for being the victim.

    • johnno says:

      12:09pm | 12/11/09

      The two real causes of action were:

      A) misrepresentation: the licensee represented that he would withhold the keys. The patron acted on that representation to his detriment.

      B) breach of contract: the licensee breached his contract to withhold the keys. Note how the HC skirts this issue by calling it an ‘informal arrangement’. Only J Hayne addresses this with one line by saing ‘It was not a contract’. It seems to me that it had all the elements of a contract.

    • davido says:

      07:37pm | 12/11/09

      Got to agree with above: why take someone’s keys if you are only going to give them back?

      Defeats the purpose doesnt it?

    • JN says:

      11:11pm | 12/11/09

      Johnsa said:  The patron exercised GOOD judgment in handing over his keys. He was trying to protect himself.

      yes he did do the right thing by handing his keys over, but then he went against his word saying that he would get his wife to pick him up. It says in the article that he became agitated and said: “If I want you to ring my f**kin’ wife, I’d f**kin’ ask ya.
      If he had called his wife like how he said he would of, then none of this would of happened…
      If the publican knew something like this was going to happen, im sure he would not of let him drink in the first place or not drink as much as he did..
      so at the end of the day, the patron said something and did another thing and because of that, he has had 2 suffer the consequences. He drank and drove (in this case rode) and died..

    • Dichotomous Enigma says:

      08:40am | 27/11/09

      Let’s hope this principle is extended to all those situations (especially those involving violence) where smart-arsed lawyers are currently able to claim that their client was too drunk to form intention. Intention to perform a violent act should be deemed to occur concurrently with the decision to drink to excess. It is, in fact, time that a plea of intoxication should attract a higher and mandatory penalty.

 

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