The controversies that have arisen between complementary and alternative medicines (CAMs) and conventional medical practice may come from a difference in their origins.

Weighing it up. Pic: Narelle Autio

Conventional medicine is based on evidence, often derived from randomised clinical trials, resulting in detailed knowledge about the likely benefits and side effects. This information can help a patient decide on a treatment recommendation. Moreover, how the medicine works is often known.

CAMs are not supported by the same type of evidence. Their proposed mechanisms of action do not accord with the way modern science believes the body works. “Evidence” is commonly from testimonials or generations of use, with little information that would allow a patient to judge their chance of responding. Although the evidence produced for conventional medicine can create uncertainty, CAMs are often promoted without that uncertainty.

Worse, from the conventional medical standpoint, is the frustration of the doctor when a patient chooses CAMs instead of a conventional therapy despite scientific evidence showing the therapy is highly effective. Often the patient eventually regrets that choice.

However, CAMs are widely used by the community. It is estimated that up to 80 per cent of patients with cancer use some form of CAMs. However, there is a difference between using CAMs to complement conventional therapy and being led to believe that one must make a choice between the two. Many patients have reported improvement in symptoms with the use of a complementary medicine and would want to continue to use it in addition to other therapies. There can be little harm in that as long as it is not toxic and the price is reasonable.

Given the widespread use of CAMs, it is vital that conventional practitioners are familiar with what is being used. It is most important to know what CAMs interact with other medicines to avoid harm. It is also important that patients are encouraged to reveal their use of CAMs. They will only do this if they feel that they can do so in a supportive environment.

It is in such a setting that doctors may in turn be able to better advise patients about CAMs.

CAMs are not only biologicals, but the term includes physical therapies, meditation and practices to improve spiritual wellbeing. It may be very difficult to collect evidence in the form of randomised trials on such practices or to investigate the mechanisms if benefit is reported, but documenting their use and outcomes may still be a useful exercise. After all, many of our anticancer therapies were used before their mechanisms of action were discovered.

Knowing how widely CAMs are used it would be helpful to step back from controversy and suggest a way forward. Teaching medical students about CAMs would better equip them to understand their patients’ choices.

Subjecting selected CAMs to rigorous research evaluation will allow more widespread acceptance of those CAMs with greatest benefit. Finally, moves toward integrative clinics where a range of both therapies are provided to patients in the same medical setting are worth evaluating to demonstrate whether this will improve overall patient care which is the ultimate goal.

Read more about it here, at Cancer Forum.

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61 comments

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    • Elphaba says:

      02:59pm | 24/03/11

      Absolutely, if devotees are so eager to push the benefits of CAMs onto other people, then they should object to some rigorous testing.  And if the testing proves that it’s nothing more than taking a sugar pill, then that information shouldbe clearly displayed in all buinsesses offering CAMs.

      But I suppose, this comes down to the honesty of patients as well.  Some patients might not want to disclose what CAMs they’re using for fear of doctors telling them otherwise.  An open dialogue with a doctor is essential, and if they tell you that the medicines that they are prescribing you have a much better success rate, then for Godsakes, use them.  Otherwise you are just placing your health in jeopardy.

      And people who cannot voice their preferance - particularly children - should not be subjected to CAMs without their being conventional healthcare as well.  To do so is foolish, and puts lives in danger that cannot speak for themselves.

      I’d trust my doctor any day over a naturopath.  I’m never sick, regular checkups, I’m healthy as a horse.  Nothing wrong with that…

    • Luce says:

      03:11pm | 24/03/11

      But don’t you get it? If you put CAMs through rigorous scientific testing it will negate their primary mechanism of action: the placebo effect, rendering them useless. Do we really want to risk that??

    • Elphaba says:

      03:20pm | 24/03/11

      *shouldn’t.  Shouldn’t object to rigorous testing.

    • FraudianApprentice says:

      03:32pm | 24/03/11

      re. Protectionist Measures, the Godfather and mob rule…
      Martian Scorase demonastrated quite clearly an intimate understanding the Jungian symbology regarding masks, horse costumes and their relationship within the collective… the majority can be seperated into two distinct groups, the head and the… tail.

    • Elphaba says:

      05:33pm | 24/03/11

      @Luce, I don’t think it’ll matter.  Desperate people will still accept hocus pocus despite all rational evidence to the contrary.  I just think that if rigorous testing saves at least one person from thinking they can treat their cancer holistically, it’s worth it.

    • Rick says:

      03:05pm | 24/03/11

      Just thought I’d get in before Eric

    • Erick says:

      03:44pm | 24/03/11

      Damn you!

    • iansand says:

      03:21pm | 24/03/11

      If CAMS are subjected to rigorous testing and prove to be efficacious they become medicine.  I doubt that there is one “alternative” therapy that has not been adopted by conventional medicine once that therapy has been shown to be effective.

    • Richard says:

      03:41pm | 24/03/11

      This is a good article.

      I think its important for everyone to realise that no one has ALL the answers, not yet anyway; but that the best results are often obtained through harmonious co-operation between professionals working in mutual respect and goodwill.

    • malohi says:

      05:40pm | 24/03/11

      Charlitans are not working for good will. Your comment has implications which are deceptive. It implies an equality of co-operation and an that both sides are entitled to equal respect.
      Your arguement is as valid as saying.

      a meterologist doesnt know what the weather will be tomorrow, but can make an educated guess;
      a psychic can predict the weather, but her crystal ball gets a bit foggy. Niether can know for certain;
      therefore both are mutually valid predictions.
      We should rely on both opinions together if we want to best predict the weather…

    • Richard says:

      08:29pm | 24/03/11

      No malohi, a few charlatans does not discredit an entire industry.

      What is with the prejudice on this forum? So many times on this site I’ve seen honest people meekly post up their own personal experiences with CAM, which have been positive and beneficial for them, only for a barrage of cynical know-it-all numb-skulls to bombard and bully them, and pompously profess that “it was all in your head” and “there is no possible way” and “placebo” this and “woo woo” that.

      I’m sorry, but in the real world, people’s own personal experiences do matter, and they can’t be dismissed with such callous narrow-mindedness and blinkered pig-headedness. There are phenoma in our world which are still inexplicable. But when something works for someone, they know it; they intuitively know it. They can feel it, even if they can’t describe it. No one else can know what they’ve felt, it was a personal, subjective experience. But within themselves, it was more real to them at that point in time than all the theory in every single medical text book in the world.

      If you don’t want to use CAM; fine. But don’t assume that positive experiences cannot be gleaned from the application of some forms of CAM, because the personal testimony of many people who’ve actually used them proves otherwise.

    • malohi says:

      10:13pm | 24/03/11

      Richard. I am not attacking you, i have no doubt that you have conviction in your words.
      It is the line of logic that someone saying it works without being able to reproduce the result under controlled circumstances still has credibility in some peoples mind.
      There are desperate people in pain and hopelessnes, some of whom are dying… can you not see the danger in flooding the market with remedies that have no real effect?  Can you not see the repulsivness of having people outlay money for it?
      If you get that, then surely the next step is that if you want to proffer a product making medical claims, you should have to prove it works to avoid such undesirable circumstances.
      Anything less is the realm of charletins.
      Even back in the days of carlils carbolic smokeball it was known that it is the most ignorant and vulnerable in society who fell victims to such scams.. it is not new.

      People will believe fantastic things with such passion ( religion, psychics, horroscopes, accupuncture, fake moon landing) and thier anecdotal evidence is so believable… because they genuinely believe it. But when it comes to the treatment of serious illness… surely we can put the grown up pants on and say enough is enough.

      Please dont take it as a personal insult.

    • Lisa H. says:

      12:21am | 25/03/11

      So test the alternatives according to scientific method! The sick and elderly deserve that kind of respect, and alternative therapies deserve to undergo the proper process of testing. Let’s get alternative therapies out of the dark ages!

    • Richard says:

      09:37am | 25/03/11

      Did you read the article Lisa H.?

      “CAMs are not only biologicals, but the term includes physical therapies, meditation and practices to improve spiritual wellbeing. It may be very difficult to collect evidence in the form of randomised trials on such practices or to investigate the mechanisms if benefit is reported, but documenting their use and outcomes may still be a useful exercise. After all, many of our anticancer therapies were used before their mechanisms of action were discovered.”

      How are you going to compare the benefits of meditation against a sugar pill? The whole idea is ludicrous. The sick and elderly people deserve better than to be deprived access to therapies that have the potential to help them, just because a sneering arrogant few are unable to conceive of a reality not sanctioned by the conventional wisdom.

    • Tony says:

      03:42pm | 24/03/11

      One of the issues is that most of the time the practitioners of alternative therapies will advise patients to not use conventional therapies. In addition, some natural practitioners will try and scare the patient from using conventional therapies.

      Another point to make is that certain individuals prefer to be ignorant than educated. How many times have I been told that conventional therapies do not work and I get given statistics on treatment side effects. You know what? It’s true that most conventional therapies especially those with cancer therapies have side effects and some of the side effects can be harmful. Guess what? This is a good thing because we actually KNOW the side effects, harmful or good. Conventional therapies have been trialed and tested over and over again. How about natural therapies? We have absolutely no knowledge of how harmful they are.

      And here is the crux of the problem. Natural practitioners do not need their remedies to be tested because they believe it works. Even if a researcher or scientist test their remedies, these natural practitioners won’t believe the results because most likely they will accuse the researcher of being bias.

    • Razor says:

      04:03pm | 24/03/11

      Acupuncture - who thought it was a good idea to stivk needles into the body to make other parts work?  And some of it does work?

    • Seano says:

      07:23pm | 24/03/11

      Not really better than any placebo. But with the risk of dirty needles, permanent damage from a misplaced needle, that proven therapies will be ignored and of course the chance of being ripped off.

    • Richard says:

      09:09pm | 24/03/11

      Seano mate, straight up you are wrong. Sterile single use needles are always used and professional Acupuncturists are trained for YEARS to apply needles with skill, so the risk of a “misplaced needle” is minuscule. The only reported cases of permanent damage from acupuncture in Australia have ironically been caused by General Practitioner Doctors practising “Medical Acupuncture”.

      Which actually that raises a relevant point, because it seems to be the popular quote on this forum lately to say “there is a name for alternative medicines that have been proved correct. It’s name is medicine” or some such story. I’ve honestly seen that quote or words to that effect written about 20 times in the last 2~3 weeks on the punch by different commenters and even authors.

      While I actually disagree with that statement, if you do want to apply that test to acupuncture, you’ll find that its validity nevertheless still upheld, because there are thousands of registered GP Medical Doctors in Australia offering “Medical Acupuncture” treatments as a one of their clinical services. I’m sure you’re aware of them, they’re everywhere. In fact the first time I ever had acupuncture it was administered by my GP.

      Acupuncture is a proven therapy. The World Health Organisation (WHO) recognises the use of acupuncture as an effective and safe treatment for some 50 different conditions and diseases, ranging from Asthma and Arthritis through to Trigeminal Neuralgia and Vaginitis.

      Of course, Acupuncture itself is a quite specific skill, so a General Practitioner who has completed a weekend course in “Medical Acupuncture” will never be as proficient at it as a fully qualified and licensed Acupuncturist would be. But nevertheless, even abiding by your standard, the facts are direct. Its all there, right out in the open, for everyone to see, how utterly wrong you are Seano.

    • Jo says:

      01:49am | 25/03/11

      I second Richard on this. There is a huge amount of evidence that acupuncture works. It should not be classed as a CAM as (in my opinion) that risks categorising it alongside a whole lot of things that DO NOT work. In additional to chiropractors being acupuncturists,  many physios and doctors are trained in acupuncture and will use it alongside their conventional treatment.  My rheumatologist is happy that I use it for pain relief and to settle individual joints, as I have ceased needing injections of cortisone for that. I have no, however, ceased using my ongoing medication needed to keep the disease in remission. Also, at least everywhere I have had acupuncture in Australia, it has always been single-use sterile needles that have been disposed of safely afterwards (no needle-stick injuries).

    • Richard says:

      09:52am | 25/03/11

      No Seano, one biased article on some poxy two-bit website, run by a crusty conservative ex head-shrink, does NOT hold weight against the avalanche of clinical evidence available that proves the effectiveness of acupuncture.

      I see your retired psychiatrist, Stephen Barrett M.D, and raise you Dr. Leon Hammer M.D.: http://www.dragonrises.org/bio-leonhammer.html

      Not every medical doctor is pursuing such a pathetic witch-hunt as your idol Dr. Barrett is Seano.

    • Seano says:

      03:09pm | 25/03/11

      You can beat a good player but it’s hard to beat a good scorer. Of course this bloke isn’t making money out of flogging bollocks. lol

    • Nick says:

      04:34pm | 24/03/11

      I heard a good quote the other day. “There is a name for alternative medicines that have been proved correct. It’s name is medicine”.

      I think that for starters clinical trials should aim to collaborate and become larger, as the smaller trials often become negated by small sample size and don’t account for natural variation or chance.

      Secondly it doesn’t matter if alternative therapies are proved useless and, destroy the placebo effect. There will always be another option, medical researchers aren’t going to go on a rampage and disprove everything overnight.

      In the end, cancer sufferers will exhaust every possible avenue to try and live, perhaps through further testing we can at least try and save them money to improve their quality of life, since their may be very little quantity remaining.

    • Matt C says:

      09:07pm | 24/03/11

      re. “I heard a good quote the other day. “There is a name for alternative medicines that have been proved correct. It’s name is medicine”.

      That would be from Tim Minchin: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1yxDWxUIM0

    • Terry Wright says:

      06:07pm | 24/03/11

      What’s evidence got to do with health? If we allowed evidence to dictate health policy we would have legalised ecstasy and cannabis by now, introduced Heroin Assisted Treatment (HAT) and decriminalised illicit drugs.

    • Mick S says:

      06:46pm | 24/03/11

      Health is not the problem here.
      If drug abuse is treated as a health issue instead of a legal issue then legalisation or crimilisation is not an issue.
      Alternatively, if health evidence was used to determine legal status, then alcohol and tobacco would be illegal.

    • michael j says:

      11:07pm | 24/03/11

      does this mean there will be a resurgence in LSD to take peoples minds of their cancer related health problems,,,,,,,,,

    • braunman says:

      12:00pm | 28/03/11

      @Terry,

      Funny you should mention Heroin. In the past heroin and other poppy derivitives (opium ect) actually were used in medicine. Needless to say there’s several very good reasons they arent anymore…

    • Glen says:

      07:13pm | 24/03/11

      You can read more from Professor Olver and other authors in an indepth review of complementary and alternative medicine published today in Cancer Forum (http://www.cancerforum.com.au).

    • chungo mung says:

      10:55pm | 24/03/11

      spot on Richard with all of your points. it is all about the dominance of narrow and conservative thinking. those that practice this sort of outlook depend on proof for any knowledge they are willing to believe in, and hilariously, they have faith in these notions of proof, and methods of proof, to a degree that mimmicks those they ridicule for believing in CAMS or anything alternative for that matter.

      the conspiracy is one of ignorance, that maintains an intellectual status quo and hinders the broad progress of knowledge. we westeners are so cocksure of our own paradigm of knowledge and thinking, that we automatically discredit and disrespect the methods and histories of knowledge that pervade other cultures and countries. these people believe everything ‘alternative’ is a farce, but if they are told on the nightly news the the ‘mood’ of the market is shakey, having been effected by tentative financial situation in one country or another and its effect on the price of oil and the polularity of ‘whatever’ - then these same people lap up each detail (or disagree, but still bind themselves to the basic paradigm of information in their alternate views) and say ‘yes sir, yes sir, three bags full sir’ to the “information” they are fed from our media source. the irony is the fact that the ignorant and close-minded love so much to quickly call everyone else ignorant.

      with all the evidence out there regarding the failings of modern medicine methods and attitudes, as well as the epidemic proportions of disease and conditions “(like obesity, cancer, heart disease, mental illness and so on and so on) you would think that people would be willing to broaden the possibilities of perception when it comes to health.

    • stephen says:

      11:51pm | 24/03/11

      But Cams is only a Medicine.
      Can its application offer a prognosis, or is it only an aspect of treatment ?
      Doctors want to know what will happen if a treatment is applied. Is this sort of treatment been a subject of study ?
      Doctors are scientists, who like to understand the formation of the body through small things : cells, and germs , via the microscope.
      You propose a different point of view -  a connection - which I think must be made between the physical body - cells and muscles, etc - and the mind.
      They are both chemical-based, but the mind is subject to a formal/informal feedback via every sense-organ which, in spite of the body, and eventually evidenced upon it, can cause a ‘closed loop’.
      Isn’t this your theory ?

      I have done some private research on this topic, especially to do with children, who have a different set of behaviours.
      It’s very interesting.

    • Huey says:

      08:31am | 25/03/11

      Ackshually, while not having any time for “alternatives”  after seeing my grandaughter finally thrive after being treated by a naturopath; I consulted and tried her advice (which was diet based) three days later the problem was gone. “Medicine” had given me little relief (and costly at that) over twenty years.
      Maybe I saw bad doctors and a good naturopath. Anyhoo that’s MY anecdote.

    • Steve Thompson says:

      09:12am | 25/03/11

      The medical profession suffer from the highly contagious “not invented here syndrome”.

    • Shane says:

      09:13am | 25/03/11

      Any article on CAMs always brings the loonies out of the woodwork. As long as people are using tried, tested, proven medicine as a first resort, there’s little harm in most CAMs as a last resort. Unless, as Professor Olver says, they are actively harmful (colloidal silver) or criminally overpriced hokum (Homeopathy).

      Feel fre to recommend whatever alternatives you want, but for the sake of the scared ****less, gullible, ignorant and/or desperate… don’t ever recommend using it at the expense of proven medicine…

    • Lola says:

      12:25pm | 25/03/11

      Refer to my comment further down - there is a danger if the CAMs interact with other medecines - substances that wouldn’t be dangerous on their own can suddenly even become lethal via such interactions

    • Paul says:

      09:55am | 25/03/11

      It’s a common myth that alternative medical treatments have not been tested scientifically. Many of them have, and very few have been found to work as claimed. The US National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine and the NIH’s Office of Cancer Complementary and Alternative Medicine spend $244 billion every year on researching this. This study http://caonline.amcancersoc.org/cgi/content/full/54/2/110 is worth a read, and I also recommend this website http://members.bordernet.com.au/~pmoran/index.htm for some critical looks at alternative treatments for cancer.

    • TrueBeliever says:

      10:04am | 25/03/11

      It’s all a lie, CAM’s do work! Big Pharma just doesn’t want you using cheaper alternatives, wake up sheeple!

    • TrueUnbeliever says:

      10:17am | 25/03/11

      Placebo!

    • Richard says:

      10:51am | 25/03/11

      True Unbeliever, if your so certain that its all just “Placebo!”, then please kindly describe exactly how a placebo works and why this discredits CAM.

    • Shane says:

      11:17am | 25/03/11

      Who’s the sheep? The person trusting a company with thousands of scientists testing every product thousands of times before it hits the market? Or the people who believe that homoetherapists are truly diluting their “solutions” as much as they say they are, even though simple maths would tell you they’d need all the water on the planet several times over if they were telling the truth?

      So, to reiterate: Following scientists vs following homeotherapists proven by mathematics to be blatently lying. Who’s the sheep again?

    • TrueUnbeliever says:

      11:51am | 25/03/11

      Richard, a placebo is the perceived benefit from a substance when it is actually having no effect at all, based on the expectation that it is working. Sometimes the body compensates to produce a mild effect, other times its the person seeing and feeling what they want, instead of whats actually there.

      Many CAMs are believed to work by placebo, as there is no other foreseeable mechanism of action. It discredits them because it means they’re not actually doing anything. Sure, some people will feel better, but its not exactly a reliable way to treat illness, and anyone who think it is, is fooling themselves. Using CAMs alongside traditional medicine is one thing, but using them as the sole source of treatment is madness.

      Shane, I completely agree. It honestly mystifies me that people get drawn in by the idea that the more you dilute a homeopathic substance, the more effect it will have. They are so diluted that the chance of a single molecule of the original substance actually being present in a little vial of homeopathic stuff is incredibly small. Its just water!

    • Richard says:

      12:25pm | 25/03/11

      No, that is totally incorrect TrueUnbeliever.

      The placebo effect is when a real existential disease is cured or improved through the administration of “a substance or procedure… that is objectively without specific activity for the condition being treated”.

      Wikipedia states that “Sometimes patients given a placebo treatment will have a perceived or actual improvement in a medical condition” notice how is says “actual improvement”?

      It goes on… “placebos can also have a surprisingly positive effect even on a patient who knows that the given treatment is without any active drug”.

      ” Pharmacological substances administered through any means can act as placebos, including pills, creams, inhalants, and injections.”

      “Medical devices such as ultrasound can act as placebos.”

      “The physician has even been called a placebo;[18]33–34 a study found that patient recovery can be increased by words that suggest the patient “would be better in a few days”, and if the patient is given treatment, that “the treatment would certainly make him better” rather than negative words such as “I am not sure that the treatment I am going to give you will have an effect”.[19] The placebo effect may be a component of pharmacological therapies: Pain killing and anxiety reducing drugs that are infused secretly without an individual’s knowledge are less effective than when a patient knows they are receiving them.”

      I think the point of all this is that the body isn’t just a separate, mechanistic object that is totally disconnected from the mind (and, I would argue, the spirit).

      Therefore it follows that the most effective treatments are the ones with address the whole body-mind-spirit axis holistically.

      Even if some treatments have no effect on the body, it is still foolish to dismiss them out of hand and to claim that they are a waste of time, or that they should be abolished, because the placebo effect proves that other factors play a role in physical healing.

      This all goes to reinforce the notion that there are phenomena in our world which are still inexplicable. But clinical results speak for themselves. I don’t agree that there is any point in CAM needing to jump through all of the hoops erected by Western medicine to try and prove their worth in the particular narrow context of that paradigm.

      Real results speak for themselves, and if a bunch of nerdy white guys wearing lab coats want to dispute that, because it didn’t tick all the boxes on their stupid randomated, convoluted, double deaf dumb and blind laboratory trial, well too bad for them.

    • TrueUnbeliever says:

      01:47pm | 25/03/11

      Richard, I view the success of CAMs the same way as I view the success of hypnosis: it will work if a) you want it to work, b) you believe it will work, making you susceptible to the idea.

      Not everyone views the world the same way. For some it is necessary to understand (or know that someone else more knowledgeable understands) the physical mechanism by which something works in order to have a belief that it will work. Relying on the wish that something will work, while ignorant to whether it actually will or won’t, is not satisfactory. At least not for all people.

      I say this as someone who has studied in this field for a number of years, and as someone who has faced some pretty serious medical problems, and will most likely have to again in the future - f**k holistic treatments. I want proper intervention and proper doctors. I know too much to think anything other than traditional medicine and a healthy lifestyle is going to keep me alive.

      p.s. there is absolutely nothing wrong with nerds or white lab coats. If it wasn’t for them we’d still be living in the dark ages.

    • Shane says:

      03:37pm | 25/03/11

      Richard, I’m assuming you’re the same Richard who earlier posted a link to the Oz article about medication supposedly killing more people than cancer (i.e. more than 43,000 people in Australia each year).

      I would advise against taking such a statistic at face value from:

      a) A pharmacist aka NOT a researcher
      b) A study that came to that lofty conclusion based on 20,000 consultancies at pharmacies, rather than based on AIHW figures.
      c) Somebody who has a book they want to sell and publicise.

      Fortunately, I can assure you that Mr Lee ticks all three boxes. That study is absolutely bogus. You believe whatever you want to believe, but the claims he makes are absolute crap.

      On another note, there are many treatments out there where causality is still unknown, but if results are proven, it is on the market. The point about many CAMs is that the results are NOT there. Or they are, but only in tiny sample sizes that could be put down to any number of obvious explanations. Fortunately, we live in a society that demands more before we pump somethine like colloidal silver into our bloodstream. We demand results. And that is why many CAMs will remain on the peripheral - their results simply aren’t convincing. Anecdotal evidence that doesn’t stand up to scientific scrutiny is worth less than the paper your mother’s brother’s cousin’s personal trainer writes it on… it can be actively dangerous.

      ps Nerdy guys in lab coats = the reason millions are still breathing today rather than lying in a coffin somewhere with leach-marks all over their skin.

    • Seano says:

      05:59pm | 25/03/11

      “Fortunately, I can assure you that Mr Lee ticks all three boxes. That study is absolutely bogus. You believe whatever you want to believe, but the claims he makes are absolute crap.”

      Richard is all about believing everything and then finding evidence however tenuous and dubious to back up him up (whilst happily shooting down any sensible research on flimsy pretexts). This is why I’m not putting too much evidence into debating him (well that and the fact I’ve been super busy, I do love an argument after all). He’s either a desperate to believe or someone who makes money from peddalling crap (or both).

    • Paul says:

      07:37pm | 25/03/11

      Richard, you seem to profoundly misunderstand the placebo effect.  Placebos have the greatest effect on illnesses that have a large psychological component. That’s fine as far as it goes, but you can’t cure cancer, an infection or a broken leg with a placebo. There is very little evidence for a powerful innate healing mechanism stimulated by placebos. People who report an improvement in a condition after taking a placebo will usually show little or no objective improvement when compared with no treatment.

    • Richard says:

      08:41pm | 25/03/11

      “Richard is all about believing everything and then finding evidence however tenuous and dubious to back up him up ... He’s either a desperate to believe or someone who makes money from peddalling crap (or both).”

      I’m just someone who’s experienced benefits from using CAM, and seen other people have positive experiences with it too (with my own eyes, first hand). I take objection to being told that I’m too dumb to distinguish between what has helped me and what hasn’t. Its my own body, no one else will ever know its ins and outs as well as me, and when something works for me, and then you come along and say it was all bullshit, of course I’m not going to believe you: you weren’t in my skin, you didn’t experience what I experienced, so how the fuck would you know, Seano?.

      I do not dispute the primacy of modern scientific western medicine. Of course it is superior to other, unscientific disciplines. But I know for a fact there is a place for CAM in certain circumstances; and honestly, why would be so militantly dogmatic about something as important as your health?

      If there is a possibility that something can help you, if others have tried it and told you that it helped them, what on earth do you have to gain from dismissing it out of hand?

      You think they were lying to you? Why would a normal person with nothing to gain lie about that? They wouldn’t, they are only telling you it helped them because people like to share their positive experiences with other people.

      I really do have faith in science, and I believe they day is coming when it will have all the answers. But at the moment it does not. There is knowledge available to humanity that lies outside the present boundaries of science, and I will not ignore it, and I am totally baffled by those who do want to ignore it.

    • Seano says:

      07:03pm | 27/03/11

      I don’t care what you experienced. Anecdotal evidence is worthless. I know what the science and the research says, most of the voodoo you support performs roughly as good as placebo. Being only as good as a placebo is NOT a big win for acupuncture no matter how much you pretend it is.  Calling this garbage a CAM is just the latest fall-back position to justify selling sugar pills in a different form.

      “But I know for a fact there is a place for CAM in certain circumstances; and honestly, why would be so militantly dogmatic about something as important as your health?”

      Because the majority of the garbage being pushed as CAM are complete woo woo that don’t state up front how weak they actually are often letting people think they’re as good as scientific western medicine. They are often marketed by charlatans who prey on the weak, sick and desperate.

    • Paul says:

      08:43pm | 29/03/11

      Richard wrote: ” I take objection to being told that I’m too dumb to distinguish between what has helped me and what hasn’t.”

      The problem is we are all too dumb to distinguish between what has helped us and what hasn’t. It’s all too easy to assume that an improvement in a condition is due to the treatment you just had, or the pill you just took when it might well have improved on its own. Humans look for patterns in their experience and we see connections that aren’t there.

      That’s why clinical trials were invented. Doctors honestly believed that bloodletting was helping their patients until clinical trials demonstrated that it was in reality killing them.

    • TrueBeliever says:

      11:50am | 25/03/11

      Wow, people took my comment seriously.

      I thought the name ‘TrueBeliever’ made it blindingly obvious it was sarcrasm, but with the types that The Punch attracts I guess I should have known better…

    • James1 says:

      12:04pm | 25/03/11

      Lets face it TB, you are not very consistent in your attitude towards evidentiary standards.

      I know what you mean about The Punch though.  I mean, there are people getting around here who claim to have direct evidence of the existence of god…

    • James1 says:

      12:02pm | 25/03/11

      “Although the evidence produced for conventional medicine can create uncertainty, CAMs are often promoted without that uncertainty.”

      Not quite.  The ads almost always claim that these CAMs “may reduce indicence” or “may be effective”.  If some people are too stupid to use and understand English exactly, then I have no sympathy.

    • Steve says:

      12:05pm | 25/03/11

      The motto of John Fielder (one of Australia’s most experienced altenative therapists) is: “An alternative to medicine, not alternative medicine”. He explains: “... our bodies are at all times working towards life and health (homeostasis). If given the chance and right environment will achieve this if it is at all possible to do so”. It’s an important reminder that the body, given the right conditions, heals itself rather than being healed by medicines (conventional or alternative).

    • Lola says:

      12:24pm | 25/03/11

      “It is also important that patients are encouraged to reveal their use of CAMs.”

      This is, in my view, the most important thing. Some fo these CAMs can interact quite unexpectedly with conventional medicines, for better or worse - there are some cases of fatal consequences to mixes between herbal remedies and cancer medications (but I would have to go back to my uni books to find them sorry would have loved to reference)

      Patients must tell their doctor what they’re taking so their doctor has all the facts and can reduce the risk of adverse reactions.

      Sure, take CAMs - everything’s worth a try if you’re ill or in chronic pain. Just do it safely and sensibly.

    • Take Professional Advice says:

      02:37pm | 25/03/11

      Alternative medicines can be very strong, especially the herb varieties.  They have contraindications with each other as well.  Health food suppliers have no qualifications in the medical field, so should not be advising anything to anyone.
      They don’t inquire what other medications consumers are on.  This could prove very fatal, cause permanent damage or make you very ill.  You must always let your Dr know what you are thinking of taking, and he is qualified to be able to identify if there are any risks. As an example, people on some hypertension medication shouldn’t take some of the basic vitamins or herbal medicines available, as it could prove fatal, or counteract the medication your Dr has prescribed for you.  One shoe does not fit all.  Even eating grapefruit or drinking grapefruit juice if you are on some medications can be harmful.  Always be vigilent and always seek advice from your Dr or Pharmacist.  They have nothing to loose by giving you sound advice.  You may be surprised they often do recommend alternatives.

    • Richard says:

      10:17am | 26/03/11

      Look, I think there is a lot of misconception as to the actual nature of Coplimentary Therapies. In my view, they are not for fighting diseases, that is what proper medicine is for.

      But for maximising health and well-being, before a disease becomes manifest, or during the process of using medicine to fight a disease (which often inflicts collateral damage on the health and well-being of the patient), or in the aftermath of a disease, when the body can be depleted, CAM comes into its own.

      Thus there is a place for CAM, and if sneering sceptics don’t want to utilise them, well ultimately that’s ok, because ultimately its their own loss.

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