Colleges don’t cause misogyny in young men

bec says:

07:38am | 13/11/09

Rape isn’t a ‘mistake’ or a lapse of judgement. It is the deliberate act to enforce violence upon another person.

SarahinCanberra says:

08:15am | 13/11/09

I definitely agree that colleges are not where the poor behaviour begins. The college events that we’ve seen hit the media are reflections on broader society. For example the objectification of women and violence (whether discursive or actual) against women are serious social issues that we are yet to conquer. I also agree that the collective college identity can be very supportive for those who are embraced by it.
However, colleges and university campuses are often not places of safety for young women. In my experience misogynistic jokes are laughed off, and sexual harassment is often swept under the carpet, the effect of which is to ostracize and dis-empower the victim. Action is of course taken when there is an accusation of rape, but anything less than that is construed as meaningless fun.
Young people will make mistakes, that’s part of growing up. But we need to ensure that when boundaries, particularly the boundaries of personal dignity, are crossed there are appropriate consequences. There are times when the ‘unconditional love’ of the college family needs to extend to correcting the behaviour of the residents. And the unconditional love also needs to be extended to the women who are brave enough to make complaints, rather than victim blaming.
We should also be actively encouraging our young men to be self reflective, and reward positive behaviour. Oweek inductions for students would be the perfect opportunity to give the residents some training in respectful relationships, and how to negotiate sexual activity to ensure that all parties are fully consenting. Campaigns such as White Ribbon Day give men a chance to take responsibility and leadership in the fight to eliminate violence against women.
Colleges cannot take full responsibility for the misogyny of their residents. There is, however, much more that they can do to ensure that everyone is safe and respected.

Eric says:

08:23am | 13/11/09

Nice non-sequitur from Bec. What has rape got to do with this story?

You seem a tad obsessed.

Lauren says:

08:58am | 13/11/09

The initial story was about a woman being raped at college. That is what Bec is talking about.
And I completely agree with her. Rape is a horrendous, life-changing crime that will haunt the victim and their family for the rest of their lives. It is a grossly violent attack that is very difficult to comprehend if it hasn’t happened to you. So no, it is not simply a “mistake” or “lapse in judgement.”
And as for colleges being safe havens for students “who aren’t having fun” - give me a break. Your retort, Tamzin, is as weak as the mos you guys grow for Movember. I am sick of privileged, private school boys crying foul when things don’t go their way. Own up to the misogyny, do something about it and then come see us.

Paul says:

09:00am | 13/11/09

Sounds like a teaparty the way you put it. College and small inbred communities like this also breed a strange blend of homophobia and homoerotica. Just as they once bred mateship and bizarre bullying and bastardisation rituals. Repressed white people and their shadows? Just as well you have the PR money and political contacts to kill stories - certain gossip mags would be drooling all over these colleges.

Jo says:

09:08am | 13/11/09

Nice to see the other side of the story. great article Tamzin. I spent two years at college and had the time of my life. Yes there’s a lot of partying but there is much more fun and friendship that has nothing to do with alcohol (as Tamzin described). The events of sexual assault that have come to light are shocking, and yes, must be addressed, but enough of the generalisations and sensational stories damning colleges. In my two years at college I never felt threatened and I didn’t witness anything described in the papers recently (probably by people who didn’t go there).

Eric says:

09:12am | 13/11/09

Funny, Lauren, I thought the initial story was about a probably non-existent “pro-rape” page on Facebook. Mere unsupported allegations don’t count as proof.

Misogyny is not a major problem in our society, but misandry is. The man-hating replies from yourself, Bec, and SarahinCanberra illustrate the depth and extent to which demonisation of men and masculinity has spread in mainstream society.

Rather than preaching guilt and hatred which will only alienate men, perhaps so-called “anti-violence” campaigners should recognise that hostility only breeds hostility.

Darren says:

09:19am | 13/11/09

@ the University I went to one of the residential colleges had an annual ‘porn and prawn’ night. The boys were put in one room and given copious amounts of alcohol and watched pornographic movies - including bestiality - the girls were in another room and also given free grog and watched some nice soft-porn movies - after a couple of hours the two groups merged - not surprisingly sexual assault was rampant - naturally this was a cllege with a firm basis in ‘Christianity’.

DG says:

09:33am | 13/11/09

In no way do I endorse violence towards any person nor do I suggest that anyone deserves to be a victim of violent crime. 

@SarahinCanberra :

Here’s a novel approach - if you don’t like the behaviour avoid the participants. It won’t take long for the behaviour to change. The reality is that women choose to participate in these activities whether it be because they like the attention, are having fun or fear of being less popular. Sometimes it comes down to this - a choice between being popular or being true to yourself? If you choose to be popular at the cost of something that you believe in (whether it be getting drunk due to peer pressure, having sex to fit in or treating others poorly because everyone else is doing it) that’s a choice that you make. Accept it.

Personally, I chose the later - I was ostracised by some for my decision. Personally I decided that I would rather kill myself than following in the footsteps of the popular crew. I even tried once. Having my time over again I probably wouldn’t change a thing (except for the suicide attempt). As I’ve said many times before, I would rather do what’s right than be happy or popular. However, I digress….

A much as some women complain about guys behaving like this, those guys are the ones that get the attention of the women (as demonstrated in the above image). What better way could there be for women to encourage this behaviour than to reward the participants? Not only that it teaches those guys that don’t like the activities that they have a choice - participate or be ignored (most intimidating for many men is the thought of being ignored by women, but both men and women will ignore those that don’t participate).

Women face the same dilemma - participate or be ignored.

I appreciate the sentiment of “rewarding positive behaviour” - but given a choice between “popularity, sex and fun” or “a nominal reward for doing the right thing”. It’s just not going to happen.

As for the violence issue - it’s gender neutral. More males are victims of assault than women, but it’s not a men’s problem - the problem is individuals that perpetrate violence on ANY other person. By associating the crime with the victim (rather than the perpetrator) you perpetuate that the status of the victim changes the crime. It doesn’t. Let’s stop drawing these artificial, divisive lines and acknowledge the real problem.

To Violence: Australia says no.

As for the comments that are made: As an Aboriginal I’ve head my fair share of offensive comments and jokes about my people and culture. The reality is that I believe people have the right to say and think whatever they like - even if I don’t like what they are saying. They can tell all the Koori jokes and generally say whatever they want so long as the treat me the same way the treat everyone else. I don’t believe I have some right to go from the cradle to the grave without seeing or hearing anything that I may find offensive (If I did, religion would be getting the flick).

Kelly says:

09:46am | 13/11/09

Eric calling someone else obsessed?!???!?! That will do me for today! Hypocrisy - thy name is Eric.

Patrick says:

10:00am | 13/11/09

Cheers to Sarah for such a great response.  And I think Tamzin is correct in saying that events like these represent a broader youth culture. 

However, this does not absolve colleges from failing to effectively deal with the issue, irrespective of positive steps taken by NAAUC.  But let’s be realistic, simply supporting the Red Frogs movement or holding debating competitions amid the plethora of bar nights etc. is a cop-out on for non-alcohol related socialising . There is clearly a problem and it seems to stem from the mostly under-table but sometimes blatant misogynistic attitudes of young men.  I would hope that colleges such as St Paul’s, probably home to a number of future business and political leaders, would encourage leadership in young men on this issue rather than trying to brush it under the table. 

As Bec said, rape is not a mistake or lapse of judgement.  I’m not pointing the finger at colleges but it is time that young men put as much effort into preventing rape as groups of young women already have.  Schools and colleges aren’t the only solution, but they are the best place to start.

Mo Bro says:

10:33am | 13/11/09

“Your retort, Tamzin, is as weak as the mos you guys grow for Movember. “

How dare you bring the Mo’s into this…

iansand says:

10:36am | 13/11/09

I know the solution.  The minimum entry age for colleges should be 30.  That will get rid of the excesses of youthful exuberance*.

Next problem!!

*Youthful exuberance is very, very bad and should only be expressed in forms that pass the Wowser Committee.

Tom says:

11:29am | 13/11/09

Lauren, if I were a college boy I too would be crying foul if I were the subject of some ridiculous, unsubstantiated reportage such as I would characterise the initial SMH story as. In the wake of the Lebanese gang rapes, there was (rightly so) uproar at the disgraceful claims of some journalists that a rape culture existed within the Lebanese community. The same principle applies here. The actions of a few are not representative of the community (especially in this case when a so - called pro rape page was actually a crassly named soccer team), and to condemn the entire college culture based upon such tenuous evidence is absurd. Just because many of the targets of this story are ‘privileged, private school boys’ does not excuse it in any way acceptable.

Stuart says:

11:40am | 13/11/09

Thankyou for the article showing the positive side of college culture. As a long time resident and, for the last two years, a residential tutor at an Adelaide college, I have never been more proud of the work that colleges do here. Whilst some colleges, like the Sydney college in question, have reputations or issues that are very serious, other colleges continually strive to provide a safe and comfortable community for residents. Yes, we do sometimes have events that are risque- the annual ‘Porn Party’ here is a pub night with a very adult theme- we also look out for students more than the ordinary. We are indeed a community- like any community there are undesirable elements, and to combat that we work as a community.

Lisa says:

12:01pm | 13/11/09

I agree with DG that, to young people, consent to sexual acts is often the difference between between feeling excluded, or included, in a community. However, as we all know, (but rarely discuss) consent is a multi-layered concept, and differences in position will mean that often the two participants in a sexual act will be consenting to two completely different acts as far as the meaning of the act, and emotional investment.
Many women ‘just want to be loved’, and are baldly taken advantage of for that. They are encouraged to make an emotional investment which, in truth, is badly advised, so they will be physically affectionate.
Women should be educated more clearly that men are often if not usually acting from a vastly different sexual culture than their own, a sexual culture that is significantly more opportunistic, less honest and encourages a sometimes very much delayed emotional investment.
Political correctness means we have covered up this rather old fashioned advice to our daughters. Raunch culture cannot hide the fact that women are being hurt by this ‘gender neutral’ sexual culture.

DG says:

12:31pm | 13/11/09

@Lisa:
“Women should be educated more clearly that men are often if not usually acting from a vastly different sexual culture than their own, a sexual culture that is significantly more opportunistic, less honest and encourages a sometimes very much delayed emotional investment.”

Less honest? How is it less honest to give affection to get intimacy, than to give intimacy to get affection? Both sides are guilty of the same thing - doing or saying what they think will get them what they want. Welcome to the human race. As you said - girls feel pressured to have sex to get affection. The sex is no more ‘honest’ than the affection that was provided to get the sex - both are just going through the motion to get what they actually want. It’s a simple trade - if you don’t like what’s on offer then say no.

Why is it fair to say that women are taken advantage of, but not that men are taken advantage of? Women understand that men provide affection to get sex, men understand that women provide sex to get affection. Some times men give the affection without getting sex and sometimes women have sex without getting the affection…. The reality is, both ways, the parties made a decision KNOWING that there was no obligation on the other party to do anything, but hoping that if they worked hard enough (did what their partner wanted) they would get what they wanted.

As for it being covered up? Where did that come from? I don’t remember any one ever covering that up. The message has always been “It’s OK to say NO and No means No. You don’t have to do something that you don’t want to do” (i.e it’s up to each individual if they want to do it). The bit that has been hidden is that there is a cost associated with that - whether it be social standing in your peer group, lack of interest from the other sex or being ostracised for being “a prude”.

The advice to kids should be “Nothing is free. If you want something, you’ll have to give something up. It’s up to you to decided if the cost is worth it.” Maybe if young people were taught about cost/benefit rather than being instilled with the belief that they can have everything a number of problems could be avoided.

DG says:

12:37pm | 13/11/09

@Lisa (12:01pm | 13/11/09)

“Raunch culture cannot hide the fact that women are being hurt by this ‘gender neutral’ sexual culture”

I’m not sure what you are saying here. Are you suggesting that men and women SHOULD be treated differently because of their gender? Isn’t that sexist?

The reality is that both genders have been hurt by the gender neutral focus of society - but that is inevitable when there is a concept of ‘equal rights’ - both lose their gender identity.

Timbo says:

12:38pm | 13/11/09

Tamzin said “College isn’t for everyone, but it’s a safe space to make the mistakes that you’re going to make. A college community creates an amazing support network.”

Agree about making mistakes - still doing that 15 years after leaving a great college experience.

Agree about the support network - uni is totally different if you live in a college.

But Tamzin still seems to be saying, there all these good things about college, so don’t worry about the other stuff, it’ll all turn out ok in the end.

No, actually.  We can do better.

And thanks, iansand, for being so helpful as to say it’s either open slather or wowserism.  Very intelligent contribution.

But what I really wanted to say is this.  College students, college life, college values merely reflect the world around them.  They are the free-est, most lively, most intense times.  College problems shout at us “there’s something wrong with the world the way we’ve constructed it!”

When will we as Aussies stop pursuing this line that because I can do, that makes it ok?  That’s what makes me cringe when I see Aussies abroad, and it’s the same thing at the heart of this college mess.

We can do better.

iansand says:

01:27pm | 13/11/09

Timbo@12:38 If you took that comment seriously I now understand a lot more about this debate.  Earnestness should not be mistaken for insight.  Nor should prolixity.

AdamC says:

01:31pm | 13/11/09

Congratulations, Tamzin, on an eloquent and passionate defence of colleges.

To those (there are a few of you) who made unmeasured remarks about ‘private school boys’ and ‘misogyny’, how would you respond to Lisa’s point about the problems with the highly permissive raunch culture we have created over the last few decades of social change? It seems her explanation of the behaviours in question is far stronger than anyone else’s here. Of course, it is also much harder to do something about.

Tom also makes a good point. It would be interesting to get into the minds of the thought police and find out how they decide which cultures are acceptable to criticise and which ones aren’t.

Lisa says:

01:34pm | 13/11/09

Interesting conversation DG. In my response I focused on women’s aspects, because these were being focused on in the originating article. I agree that men, also, are hurt by sexual interaction (or the lack of it), of course.
I will take issue that people consent with full knowledge though. The main cause of problems is the LACK of full information relating to their sexual activity.
Men and women confuse the issue deliberately by being anything but honest with either themselves or their partner when it comes to sexual interaction.
But I guess clearer information would take some of the ‘fun’ (and the cruelty, which is often mysoginistic) out of the game.
Most women DON’T fully admit that sex is transactional, because women’s culture actively works to shield them from this experience of sex.
Many women are shielded from the full extent of woman-hatred or woman-disrespect which permeates male popular culture . When I got married, and became fully aware of the banter between men, I was pretty surprised, and that’s saying it kindly.

bec says:

02:20pm | 13/11/09

Wow. I didn’t even mention the gender of either the perpetrators or victims of sexual assault - leaving open the obvious that males too are victims and females often perpetrators - and Eric leaps upon it calling sexism. Gee, and people thought us feminists were overly sensitive!

What I have a problem with is the implication that the events alleged can be written off as mistakes (evident in Tamzin’s words “even the most amazing and sensible 18-25 year olds will make mistakes”) or as youthful folly. Bullshit. Mistakes are when you jump in a shopping trolley after a few too many and hurtle into a lamp-post, breaking your collarbones and necessitating too many stitches. Mistakes are when you sleep through your alarm and miss an exam. Sexual assault - the commission of, the inability to stop it, and making jokes about it - is the pathetic and conscious action of dickheads. Let’s stop lessening the guilt of sociopathic people who will never make the world a better place.

Oh, and by the way: if this whole incident REALLY just arises from a poorly named soccer team page on Facebook, why have the people who’ve written it not spoken up, or provided screencaptures? Hell, they could even provide us with the name of the particular sporting fixtures their team plays in, when they last played, where, and with whom. If it really WERE a sporting team, it would be easy enough to verify. As of yet nothing concrete has been provided. You’d think if it was an innocent mistake it would have been brought up by now.

Naomi says:

02:30pm | 13/11/09

Colleges don’t CAUSE this kind of behaviour. I acknowledge that there are parts of College/Uni lifestyles that contribute to drunken incidents and it can make people uncomfortable. Ultimately though, as Tamzin has stated, there are so many other facets of College life that have nothing to do with boozey misogyny. There are social issues afront, but you cannot attribute it to College life as these events and goings on are pretty much dictated by individuals and not promoted or endorsed by Colleges themselves.

Eleanor says:

02:37pm | 13/11/09

DG, I think you and Lisa actually largely agree with each other.  Maybe you should re-read what she wrote.

suze says:

02:58pm | 13/11/09

Oh Eric, more mens victimization propaganda to undermine the issue of bad behavior from privileged young men. You can’t say the pro-rape site “probably” didn’t exist especially when the schools principle acknowledged it’s existence and distanced himself from it so in fact you are manipulating the facts just to get that special misandry word circulating once again to detract attention from the ugly culture of mens privilege to objectify women.
I think you would find there are many men, not just women who have issues about mysogyny and violence towards women.
Many men are after all victims of other “men”.
It seems you are justifying misogyny as a mans right to masculinity. Don’t forget, the biggest perpetrators of violence towards men are in fact “men”!  Masculinity isn’t about violence. 

The hoo ha is about stopping the culture that deprives one of dignity and rape is the great oppressor of all time and there is never any justifying it.
If i was at a college and witness to a wet T’Shirt competition I’d have felt entirely violated. To validate it being ok because it happens at a backpack hotel is stupidity. A backpacker hotel is full of STD carrying horny drunk morons mostly. Should that culture be acceptable at a privileged school or any school for that matter? I think not!

DG says:

03:05pm | 13/11/09

@Lisa:

I don’t know if one can conclude that the transactional nature of the relationship can be simply considered a sign of hatred or a belief that the other person is inferior because of their gender.

I suspect that the person who lies about their intentions to get sex or affection is just as likely to lie about other things to get what they want (again, gender neutral).

I can’t speak for your suggestion that woman’s culture protects women from the truth - the women I have spoken to about such issues appear to be well aware that it is often transactional in nature*.

I’m not sure a bout “woman-hatred or woman-disrespect which permeates male popular culture” - I suspect what is actually apathy on the male part comes across at hatred or disrespect.

Again, based on personal experience, around the same (small) proportion of men and women hate or disrespect the opposite gender. They do tend to ruin it for every one else. Most of the males I know (I should point out that as someone who tends to choose the right thing rather than the popular thing, my group of mates may be less devious than the population at large) that those who go out with the intention of getting laid know that they will have to buy a few drinks, be attentive and affectionate for a while.

They also know that so long as they keep up their end of the deal they’ll keep getting laid. It’s not a matter of disrespect for the other person because they are female it’s a matter of greed and self interest, if the other person wont give them what they want, they aren’t going to play around giving the person what they want. Similarly, I know a number of women who keep putting out knowing that they’ll keep getting nice things and he’ll keep treating her ‘right’ while she puts out.

Simply put each has something that the other wants - many see the dating game as a way of seeing what they have to do to get what they want. Of course, I understand that many assume the game is short lived and expect that, within weeks, it will be a relationship of mutual satisfaction rather than an ongoing transaction.

Meanwhile there are some of us that behave in a certain way because we like a person (i.e bothered to get to know them before considering a relations) we start demonstrating our affection as a result of the growing relationship (rather than with an expectation of reciprocation), things progress as we genuinely believe our partner to be special and keep giving them what they want (showing them they are special) long after that partner stops giving anything back.

Lisa says:

03:11pm | 13/11/09

My observation of men’s culture only actually took place after I was married, and therefore in a privileged position, accepted as an unspeaking observer.
To my mind, my husband’s banter, and those of his fellows, revolves around a fictional female character that is perhaps a conglomeration of the worst imaginery aspects of feminine sexuality.
Eg. my man’s friends will characterise women as: whiny, opportunistic, exploitive, vulgar, fickle, disloyal, lazy, childlike and hypocritical.
They constantly characterise women as promising, or selling, their bodies for money.
All of these opinions are, of course, completely polically incorrect. Undoubtedly, that is one reason why these characterisations are nurtured within male-only groups.

CJ says:

03:36pm | 13/11/09

Ergh, I was glad I wasn’t in the collage at my Uni, there was a society called “High Table” where all the guys would try to have sex with as many girls as possible, do horrible things to them and watch while their mates were having sex with these girls. Completely horrible. Those guys always seemed to be the ones with the most money, private school upbringing, etc. And I’m sure they’re the ones who end up in those big corporate boys clubs too, where that behaviour is still condoned.

Helen says:

03:46pm | 13/11/09

This article was a great piece of PR - just muddied the logical waters in a big way. Tamzin is attacking a straw man argument that the Colleges “cause” rape culture and misogyny in our society. The fact is that our society is permeated with it and the Colleges are simply a very efficient hothouse for it, filled as they are with young men who are often quite uberprivileged and entitled (future leaders, blah etc.)

It’s disappointing to see commenters in the thread, yet again, arguing that women and girls should be the ones to police the behaviour or change their own behaviour or expectations. It’s the way we raise our boys that should change.

And what “Bec” said. Rape is not a “mistake”. “Mistake” is a word often used by what psychologists describe as “enablers”.

DG says:

04:13pm | 13/11/09

Eleanor (02:37pm | 13/11/09)

I do largely agree with Lisa. it was more the case that I felt her reply was that women were disadvantaged more than men. From my side, as a male, it seemed quite the opposite (growing up) - it seemed that women have all of the power and the men are running around doing whatever they can get win the woman’s attentions.

In retrospect it appears to be about equal - both feel that they are being used and betrayed by the other sex. Perhaps the difference is that while women tend to me open with other women about the feelings of betrayal (i.e the evil man only after one thing…), males are trained to pretend they don’t care. But after a few beers I’ve hear more than one bloke say that they felt they had been used and admit that they had experienced much the same thing in their teenage years.

@suze (02:58pm | 13/11/09)

“If i was at a college and witness to a wet T’Shirt competition I’d have felt entirely violated.”

Why? I admit that I am not comfortable with such displays but I wouldn’t demand that they stop. I would accept that I wasn’t interested and would leave. They aren’t breaking any laws and so long as everyone has choosen to be there (whatever their motivation) - what’s the problem?

If the women participating don’t like it they can leave, if the men participating don’t like it they can leave. If enough people don’t like it, the activity will end. Instead there are plenty of people that like these activities, as demonstrated by the fact that people attend. If women didn’t choose to attend you can be certain that the activity would cease immediately.

The fact that I am not one of the people that enjoys these activities does not mean that they should be prohibited. I don’t assume that I have a right to demand that no one do anything that may offend me - if I find something offensive I leave.  What consenting people choose to do to each other when I am not there is up to them.

Now if people are physically assaulted that’s a different matter, again - I don’t think any one is advocating the use of violence.

ER says:

04:18pm | 13/11/09

The white t-shirt party MAY have happened at any pub but it didn’t. it DID happen at a College supported event and for that they should be held accountable.

Taking responsibility for your actions is the first step in adulthood.

Lisa says:

04:56pm | 13/11/09

Hear, hear Helen, I wholeheartedly agree that boys should be raised differently. Unfortunately, the failings here rest with Mum as well as Dad. Mum too often adopts a ‘see no evil’ approach to sexual matters involving her boy. In fact, culturally, we have an acceptance of women being misused by men, chalking it up as ‘none of our business’. Values (‘morality’) judgements are seen as personal, and therefore, not up for discussion, even between parents and children. As long as it is not our child being hurt, we are prepared to turn a blind eye. And as sexual hurt can be a subtle matter, affecting only a single individual in a very private way, it is easy to pretend the damage has not been done at all.

Adam says:

06:23pm | 13/11/09

Typical BS from supposedly intelligent contributors. I’ll make it simple for all of you:

1. The story was just a beat up of a stupid soccer page - obviously a slow news day.

2. The actions of one should not be assumed to be condoned or encouraged by the many - you need a bit more evidence!

3. Most human beings (white, black, male, female) will exploit others when raised with privilege (power, money, concessions). The only difference will be how that exploitation manifests - men may exploit for sex, women may exploit for everything else (more concessions, power and money!).

WHY?

Human beings are largely ignorant, emotional animals that lack the intelligence to change this let alone be aware of it.

The only way to therefore stop undesirable, destructive, behaviour is to make things very simple e.g. no violence at all, anytime, anywhere unless in self defence.

When you start making concessions for one group, you automatically tell those humans that they are special and others are not e.g. only violence against women is openly condemned although most violence is committed by a minority of men (& women) against MEN!

This approach not only fails, it ironically makes the situation/relations worse (not enough room or time to explain dynamics - I might later if you guys can’t figure it out but think how you would feel if someone had power over you for no other reason than colour, money or gender).

Therefore, the only way that humans (read: hairless monkeys) can create a decent society, is to:

1. Reaffirm respect for all humanity not just those that we relate to or look like; and

2. We need to ensure the principles we live by are clear and applicable to all humans and, surprise, our actions are consistent with those principles.

Quite frankly I’m tired of moronic, misandrist, feminists (and their male lackeys) calling me a misogynist when I despise everyone equally i.e. ditch the headline.

bec says:

06:32pm | 13/11/09

You know, DG, when I was younger, I experienced harassment that I was expected to laugh over. If someone ever touched me at a party and I called them on it, an ugly look would fall across their face and they’d call me a bitch for being so uppity - couldn’t I take a joke?

When I was in my teens I was accosted by a group of ten boys from a single-sex Catholic school who all took their shirts off and pinned me against the wall of the bus on the way home. I had nowhere to move and I was vastly outsized, and nobody got up to see if I was all right. You know what I did?

I laughed. Because I was young, supremely lacking in confidence, and absolutely terrified. People may have thought, had they been watching, that I was part of a joke, or I must have been loving the attention. I was hating it. But it was just a joke, see? Who cares about the feelings or dignity of the person to whom the joke is directed? GOD, POLITICAL CORRECTNESS GONE MAD THESE DAYS MEANS WE HAVE TO TREAT PEOPLE WITH DIGNITY!!!

Sometimes it’s about more than just participation. Sometimes, you are called the bitch, and sometimes it goes further than that. Sometimes the punishment is that creepy guy following behind you on the walk home to whisper all the things he’d do to you if other people weren’t around. Other times, the punishment is your friends being assaulted and internalising the blame.

It legitimately feels like we can’t win. If we put up with how people are treating us because of fear or because of social isolation, we’re just skanks who weren’t raised properly and who CLEARLY wanted to be treated in a certain way. A good dicking would set us straight in that case. If we don’t put up with it, we’re boner-killing feminazis who hate other people having a good time, and who clearly need a good dicking to set us straight. If we avoid the parties altogether, we’re just stuck up snobs who don’t know how to have a good time or how to recognise a good man when we see one - and damn, perhaps a good dicking would set us straight?

Which of the evils would you choose, if you were young, female, isolated from home and from a close network of friends? I’ll thank you to keep the magic realism out of your answer.

suze says:

06:39pm | 13/11/09

DG, Wet T-Shirt competitions at a school not illegal therefore “ok” and if ya don’t like it look away?
Have you any concept how juvenile that is?
People have the right to go to school for an education NOT be subjected to the sexual objectification of fellow students. It creates a peer pressure, a bully mentality and turns those who do into sluts and those who don’t into prudes while the boys walk off with a hard-on, unscathed.  No accountability, no responsibility and a lesson carried into adulthood that objectifying women is “ok” whether she’s your partner, sister, daughter, mother or work colleague..
Masturbation is not illegal does that mean its “ok” to do it at school in public? Or how about oral sex?
Checking out womens breast through wet T-Shirts when you are suppose to be their equal is degrading and the damage done because of one womans voluntary participation affects ALL women and of how men view them and treat them. I would say women who “choose” to do this have NO self respect and are clearly on a path where they feel they must use their bodies for attention and feel the only validation they need is from sleazy men. I think that itself is VERY sad.  Leave that crap for the Summernats and low EQ bogans and keep it the hell out of schools.

Murray says:

02:08am | 14/11/09

Tamzin, Thankyou for defending the college system. I attended King’s College at UQ for 3 years and I attended a Naauc conference at Mannix in Melbourne. Just like you, I am in no way condoning rape or the actions of a few, though I think St Pauls and the college system does need someone to defend them. The Warden of St Pauls said that the young men who attend are not there to be parented, and this is so true, colleges are a residence not a family home. They provide academic guidance and a place to meet new friends etc, and if a couple of people do something wrong, I don’t see why the College needs to be attacked for allegedly promoting or harbouring this sort of behavior. The students are mostly over 18, therefor legal adults, and if they stuff up, they should be responsible, not the college.

The problem is that no one looking from the outside of the college community can understand it fully. Looking from the outside, and only hearing the unfortunate things that happen in college, people get a really terrible idea of what college is all about.

Being one of the only 3 remaining all male college’s in Australia, I think it’s important for St Pauls to recover from this. King’s has taken to bettering it’s image through seminars about such things as sexual harrasment. Positive steps like this have to be taken at St Pauls to show that they are serious about improving the mindset of the men who live there, though I’m sure 99% of them are already upstanding young men. 
On a final note, coming from a state school in central Queenland, College is an amzing place, itis a unique experience and one that has bettered me in so many ways

Helen says:

11:30am | 14/11/09

To Adam and all the other people who have claimed “it was just a Soccer page”, including the College staff - pull the other one. It’s obvious that if the page itself proved that it was just innocent and a metaphor(!), it would have been left up, or at least comprehensive screenshots would have been provided to show just how innocuous it was. In the absence of such, I call shenanigans.If it was all innocent, it wouldn’t have been so comprehensively pulled and hushed up.

Kathleen Ryan says:

09:16am | 15/11/09

Where is teaching of proper moral values. That might sound old fashion, but the fact remains that young men & women are at a crutial part of their careers. Making friends, fitting in, wanting to be accepted can be a big torment if the climate of behavoir is to “let it all hang out” ... “anything goes” attitude. The aim is to educate so we have well balanced, decent proffessionals taking the lead. If dominant behavoir is overpowing with sex and indecent behavoir, then studies will take a second place, or less, even to the point of distraction, regret, pain, hurt, imotional instability. The rest of their lives can be mared by over bearing, all too invasive behavoir when the young lady or man is vunerable. Their whole future can be effected. Or worse, they could go out into life with that same loose attitude towards the opposite sex, then maybe end up in trouble of all sorts. Where did it begin with the likes of the footballers who were caughtout in their poor attitude towards women when away from home? We must teach good values and prevent exploitation by some who are rampant in their miss conduct and have not respect of themselves or the young women they wish to be free and easy with. There are always consequnces. It’s a long time to regret even if it’s only a distant memory. How can a man later in life be proud of his randy behavoir when in time as a married man expects fidelity from his mate, or maybe feel ashamed of what he did in the past?

Tim says:

11:05am | 15/11/09

Helen, the flip side to what you say is that if it were as damning as suggested, the Herald would have used more than a couple of taglines from the group, and published the whole site…I don’t know why the page was pulled and neither do you; nor if it was pulled by the creators or Facebook itself. Do you think if there truly were pro - rape supporters at St Paul’s college that they would be stupid enough to advertise that position in a publicly accessible page, and attach their own names to it?

I don’t think there are many people here that would argue naming a soccer team in such a way isn’t tacky and immature, but how it amounts to evidence of a ‘rape culture’ or systematic sexual harassment within colleges is beyond me. Trial by media is never a good thing; there were similar claims about a rape culture in Lebanese communities following the Skaf gang rapes a few years ago, and these claims were rightfully deplored by many. That the media and many of you are so quick to leap to such a conclusion about college residents, when the evidence amounts to a Facebook page and some hearsay on internet blogs, is a sad reflection upon you all; and that college students are primarily from privileged backgrounds does not in any way excuse such claims.

eddie says:

05:36pm | 15/11/09

Bikie gangs are misunderstood too.

Lucy says:

11:26pm | 15/11/09

the group was called “define statutory” which, yes, is tacky and immature. However I think a lot of people forget that most college kids are 17, 18, 19, 20 years old. So some of them dating and sleeping with a 15 year old is something that happens, I know a couple of guys and girls who dated people in that were two years younger than them in first year uni. Statutory rape is having sex with anyone under the age of 16 whether they consent or not. Hence “define statutory” I think the group name is tacky but it isn’t pro rape.

Sarah says:

11:37pm | 15/11/09

Women enjoy sex too. This whole “objectifying women” kind of offends me. Like we have no mind of our own and just go along with what the men want us to do? It is our decision to have sex, and it isn’t like we just do it for a man’s benefit.

On the other hand, girls are not labelled as “prudes” if they don’t have sex regularly or at all. I’m a third year student and I know girls who are virgins who are well liked, not considered prudes, and who have many male friends.

The youth culture of drinking is not something that is limited to colleges. Since this story broke I have been invited to no less than 5 white and tight wet t shirt parties. We have a lot of fun, and a lot of it is alcohol related. I don’t think that the colleges should be blamed for this.

iansand says:

07:35pm | 18/11/09

Only because there is no way this statement will reported:

STATEMENT FROM ST PAUL’S COLLEGE

18 November, 2009

As the Warden of St Paul’s College, Dr Ivan Head immediately made clear in his initial statement issued on 11 November, the Council of St Paul’s College deplores the sentiments reported to be expressed on a private Facebook site in recent media reports and which are at odds with the College’s aims and ethos.

After viewing copies of some of the Facebook material in question for the first time last Friday (which was when the material was made available) the College has made inquiries and established that:

•  The Facebook site was created in the service of a social sports team entered in a soccer competition and its Administrator was a former St Paul’s resident;
•  Through their involvement in the same sporting team, a small number of current St Paul’s residents accepted an invitation to join the Facebook group;
•  The police have advised the Warden, Dr Ivan Head, that there appear to be no legal implications flowing from information appearing on the Facebook site.

The College is undertaking further investigations and will determine what disciplinary action may be required.

In the meantime, the College has moved swiftly to address the broader issues of College culture by taking the following steps:

•  The College has repeated its warning to residents against engaging in online forums, particularly those that demean women, and reiterating that relations with women on and off campus are to be guided at all times by dignity and respect.

•  In conjunction with The University of Sydney, the College is reviewing its policies, procedures and educational materials for the conduct and behaviour of its residents, including in relation to sexual harassment, alcohol consumption and use of social media.  We are determined these should mirror best practice and be appropriate to contemporary standards.  Residents (new and returning) will be required to confirm in writing their intention to comply with these policies and procedures.

•  Reiterating to all St Paul’s residents that respect for the dignity and equality of women is non-negotiable at the College, and that all residents are expected to uphold and act on this principle.

•  The College will be strengthening the emphasis given to appropriate behaviour toward women in its program for incoming residents during University Orientation Week early next year, inviting addresses by external experts and reviewing planned events to ensure they align with College values and principles.

•  Following a unanimous resolution passed by the St Paul’s College Students’ Club last week, the College is proceeding with sponsorship of and engagement in the White Ribbon campaign, in support of efforts globally to stop violence against women.

St Paul’s remains concerned about an allegation raised on ABC TV Stateline last week, concerning matters never raised with the College.  We urge strongly that if any person has a complaint requiring police attention, it be referred to police for proper investigation.

If this statement is true the involvement of Pauls residents was minimal.

stephanie says:

10:08am | 19/11/09

I don’t think I can stand to read through the rest of these comments (20 or so, will have to suffice) so I apologize if the following suggestion has all ready been made…

If this subject has struck a nerve, I invite each of you to visit: oneinfourusa.org
I attended a US university and have recently returned to Australia after a long absence. The experience I had at the university was just as the author espouses: fun, caring and mostly safe. As with any closed quarters, there were a couple of assaults in my four year tenure. But the administration made a point of always announcing such infractions to remind students to be wary and to reiterate zero-tolerance of such activity. While there was obviously rampant drinking and general youth-related larrikin-like behaviour, something that happened in the first week of orientation changed the experience I might have had to endure in the most profound way. In that first week every single male student was compelled to watch a video and attend a seminar put on by one in four (an all male group dedicated to ending rape and educating men and women). I have never seen the video, but I certainly felt its impact. Through out the first week, as group by group the boys emerged from the seminar the dialogue shifted from a purely carefree excited energy to a quieter, more reflective, mood. The men didn’t necessarily share what they had seen, but essentially they were all changed by it. Later on I found out that the video they had seen retells the story of a male on male rape encounter and the seminar that follows encourages men to discuss the vulnerability, shock, hurt and loss they experienced in watching this atrocity. Each man was changed. The dialogue we heard over the coming months was about ensuring consent before engaging in sexual acts. Some took it in a more lighthearted sense, even going so far as to draft up a consensual agreement they jokingly intended to have all willing participants sign… But for the most part everyone experienced a greater respect and understanding of what rape can do to those involved.

Now as a survivor of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (and prior to this Rape and assault) this individual event changed the experience I had at college. I will forever be grateful for the anonymous people who put on this seminar.

I want to make one final comment. Just because I was raped AND drugged and beaten at age 15, at an alcohol fueled party, does not mean that if I had just been raped- my experience would have been any less real. Just because my memories of the night are confused by the drugs that were slipped into my drink and that my body was repeatedly abused with punches and tearing in a truly violent sense, does not mean that I would not take those two experiences every day in replacement of the rape. A violent, shocking rape experience is horrid, but I would argue that a manipulative, forced sexual encounter is JUST as horrible in the longer term. Rape is the forced submission of one person to another that steals respect and dignity and plays a dirty, sick game in the mind and psyche of the victim. Thoughts of personal fault and guilt are sickening and physically debilitating. Even though I was beaten and drugged in my experience, I wrestled with personal guilt and shame for five arduous years and experienced phobia after phobia rule my life as my mind tried to make sense of what had happened. Rape is a disgusting weapon that will inflict mental, emotional and physical pain on a person for years to come. Perhaps most divisive, is it’s ability to devalue the victim and make them believe they are worthless.

Please visit that website.