If your doctor sent you off to try reiki, coffee enemas, or (my personal favourite) vaginal blowing, you should go straight to the registration board.

Coffee! Put it in your mouth, fool! Pic: Supplied

But what if they’re recommending St John’s Wort, or acupuncture? Where does medicine end and dodgy science begin?

The latest Medical Journal of Australia delves into these quackery-tainted waters with two pieces on whether doctors should be prescribing complementary and alternative ‘medicines’ (CAM).

My gut reaction to the idea of taxpayers funding doctors to recommend anything like homeopathy or reiki or machines that go ‘ping’ is, shall we say, negative. The idea of endorsing the sort of bullshit that gets peddled by the snake oil merchants looking to make a quick buck by exploiting the poor and vulnerable is one that should be shut down immediately.

But let’s move past the immediate emotive reaction, shall we?

The complicating factors are:

1) Millions of Australians use CAM so for doctors to adopt a hands-off approach is head-in-the-sand avoidance; doctors need to know if patients are using other therapies in case there are reactions with existing medications, and they need to be able to talk patients through the evidence and the choices. So, consultations need to allow for full and frank discussions. Which, by the way, is nigh impossible at the moment with the have-an-antibiotic-and-a-liedown state of affairs.

2) Some CAM work.

3) The placebo effect works.

In the MJA, University of NSW Emeritus Professor of Medicine John Dwyer is scathing of doctors being involved at all in CAM. He says people are increasingly exposed to a “plethora of nonsense (non-science) claims that waste their money, distance them from effective care strategies and, not infrequently, cause harm”.

He says many people are sold on the pleasures of CAM, of long appointments with massages and conversation, false promises and placebos, and that doctors who sign up for ‘integrative medicine’ are blurring the boundaries possibly for commercial gain – and along with private health insurance funds that cover therapies like iridology and reflexology, give them a “totally undeserved imprimatur”.

He also rightly points out the corruption of pharmacies’ shelves, where homeopathic preparations sit alongside Panadol.

Taking the other side, Dr Marie Pirotta from the University of Melbourne says Medicare – ie taxpayers – should pay for consultations to discuss complementary and alternative procedures.

She makes the point that CAM covers bizarre treatments, but also some sensible ones. She also refers to a study that found “as little as a quarter of conventional medicine is based on level-1 evidence”.

She says doctors can alienate patients if they do not talk about CAM, and that they should be able to advise of alternative, evidence-based options.

While the MJA debate has been set up as two opposed positions, it’s not hard to see that there’s common ground.

It’s clear doctors need to engage in the conversation about different therapies – even the wacky, useless ones – because their patients are already using them. It’s clear doctors need to help everyone become more health literate, because people are absorbing false beliefs from a range of sources, not least the internet. It’s clear people need to learn that ‘natural’ does not mean ‘harmless’.

It’s clear somehow doctors need to get enough wriggle room in their hectic days to have these sorts of discussions with patients – a vain hope, perhaps.

But what would help them along would be a more thorough grounding in science for all Australians so they are better equipped to sort good medicine from bad, and an independently produced, trustworthy list based on evidence and an evaluation of benefits and risks that sets therapies out in black and white – and all shades of grey.

124 comments

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    • bec says:

      05:59am | 12/07/11

      I saw a bottle of Bach’s flower remedies on my dental hygienist’s desk. I never returned.

    • Mayday says:

      11:55am | 12/07/11

      He must be suffering from depression, my 12 year old niece is seeing a psychologist and her mum is giving her this stuff to help her deal with her fathers nasty ways.

      The way I see it,  the psychologist keeps the school happy, it was they who advised this route which she was reluctant to take and the ‘flowers’ keep mum happy….....my poor niece!

    • stephen says:

      05:22pm | 12/07/11

      Piss the father off.
      Actions speaks louder than therapy.

    • TChong says:

      06:07am | 12/07/11

      If any of these so called alternative therapies, particularly medicines worked, you can be very sure that Big Pharma would have bottled the concoction, and flogging it for whatever the market will tolerate.
      The reason why “They” dont bottle magic Dingle berries or essence of homeopathy is because these things dont work.
      The profit motive makes conspiracies theories of denying access to wonder cures/ drugs irrevalent.

    • Joan says:

      07:10am | 12/07/11

      CAM operators really rip off the consumer . The cost of the visit of inital consultation to a naturopath can cost up to $150. and consumer will be ordered costly CAM meds, and there are many willing to part with hundreds of dollars in CAM treatment per month, yet same person whinges loudly if they had to pay a DR fee or prescription med fee. The placebo effect keeps CAM operators in business and a belief by some in things `natural` , ancient , and primitive . .As for Health funds they make more money out of the peanuts that do CAM than they payout. as rebates are always limited.  Its all about money for Health Funds not educationg the public.

    • MK says:

      08:12am | 12/07/11

      Wrong TChong!,
      for big Pharma whetehr or not something works is not the most important,
      making squillions,
      whether or nto they can patent it,
      marketability,
      whether or not it sort of works ... kind of..
      and finally at the bottom of their priorities patient safety
      (beyond the risk that if it kills to many people too quickly, that will hurt marketability)

    • Lisa H. says:

      10:57am | 12/07/11

      The real issue is why it is so popular. The study of science must be very poorly taught in Australia. Or perhaps it is our culturally inherited profound mistrust of ‘official’ (mainstream) success. Tall poppy medicine!

      I know plenty of peers - educated women in their late 30s and 40s - who will happily take their children to a quack for ‘resistance testing’ (you hold a substance and the quack pushes your arm to judge whether your body rejects it!!) and then happily dose them with ‘the cure’, of unstandardised herbals.

      People do enjoy the ‘treatment’ (recognition) of the ‘whole person’, and their emotional state, which comes with CAM. It’s the whole ‘pat on the head’ thing… which probably really does make the patient feel better, if only for a short time. And recognised as a person, rather than a set of systems.

      The popularity of CAMs also do show there is plenty of room for science to grow. The issue of effective medicines having unintended side effects is no doubt a big reason why people choose to take ineffective medicines (first, do no harm…)

    • Richard says:

      11:17am | 12/07/11

      Well Chongy, a vast number of Traditional Chinese Herbal medicines ARE being bottled by Big Pharma, because they do work. For just one example, check astragalus, a famous Chinese Medicinal Herbal medicine known and used for many thousands of years in Traditional culture, is currently being used in the very initial stages of research into telomere lengthening.

      “Telomerase is the enzyme that regenerates telomeres. Telomeres form the end pieces of our DNA strands in chromosomes. Without telomerase, telomeres shorten every time a cell divides. As we age, cumulative divisions increase, and the length of the telomere caps decreases. Eventually, the strands get too short to permit cells to divide and regenerate accurately. Cells become senescent - old. Eventually, when enough of our cells become senescent, we die.

      Until recently, most scientists believed it was impossible to halt or reverse the molecular aging that takes place inside of our cells. That began to change with the publication of a paper detailing a study done by Geron Corp., Sierra Sciences, T.A. Sciences and the Spanish National Cancer Research Center.

      “The paper describes the activity of TA-65, the first compound discovered that activates telomerase in the human body. T.A. Sciences, based on licensing from Geron, markets TA-65. Geron is the original discoverer of the compound. TA-65 is derived from the roots of Astragalus membranaceus, a plant used in traditional Chinese medicine.”
      http://dailyreckoning.com/the-immortalizing-enzyme/#hl-telomere immortality

      And this is just one example, there are literally hundreds more examples of active compounds found naturally in the medicinal herbs of Traditional Chinese Medicine being isolated and used in Pharmacological drugs, and hundreds more yet to be discovered.

    • Markus says:

      12:34pm | 12/07/11

      That’s good news, Richard.
      I welcome the use of any other traditional remedies that can stand up to scientific method.

      I would also kindly appreciate you cease your griping about a conspiracy against all CAMs, simply because there are some that just cannot stand up to the same method.

    • Just Sayin' says:

      12:36pm | 12/07/11

      There’s a term for CAM and TCM that actually works.  It’s one of them new-fangled words:  “Medicine”.

    • Tim the Toolman says:

      01:42pm | 12/07/11

      @Richard:
      “And this is just one example, there are literally hundreds more examples of active compounds found naturally in the medicinal herbs of Traditional Chinese Medicine being isolated and used in Pharmacological drugs, and hundreds more yet to be discovered. “

      Which says nothing about Chinese medicine other than that they used that compound.  I can guarantee they weren’t using it for anything like what the pharmaceutical companies are, not the least because they lacked that level of understanding of the human body.  It’s like claiming that because some tribes in the amazon used a type of elave to prevent fungal infections on their feet, they “knew” that it was also an anti-depressant (at which point, you can probably engage some other new age crap that says if you’re toe is covered in fungus, you’ll be unhappy due to an energy imbalance)...

      Apologies if I’m rambling…I have a head cold and I assume there must be too much negative energy around me.  Now if I just had some crystals or some water which has been run past some garlic at 100Kph…

    • Outraged says:

      02:35pm | 12/07/11

      @Richard- if Chinese medicines really worked, then why do Chinese people have a terribly low life-expectancy? Shouldn’t they all be looking super healthy and out-living Western people?

    • Richard says:

      02:40pm | 12/07/11

      Tim the Toolman, you owe me my money back because your “guarantee they weren’t using it for anything like what the pharmaceutical companies are” is DEAD WRONG.

      Huang Qi/Astralagalus was and is used as a Qi tonic in Traditional Chinese Medicine to raise the yang and prevent aging. You don’t know a single thing about what you’re talking about. The arrogance of you commenters is astounding.

      So you’ve got a head cold huh? Why not go to the chemist and get some pseudo-ephedrine? Oh what’s that? You didn’t realise that pseudo-ephedrine is a synthetic form of the herb Ma Huang/Ephedra which has been used in Traditional Chinese Medicine to treat head colds for Thousands of Years? Isn’t it amazing how much you DON’T know, Tim the Toolman?

    • Andrew says:

      09:03pm | 12/07/11

      Yes Richard, your point is taken.  However for every 1 of the ‘chinese herbal remedies’ that works, there are about 100 that don’t.  And those that do are manufactured, bottled, and sold as REAL medicine.  Those that don’t are just sold as “chinese herbal remedies”.  Ground tiger penis anybody?  Much better than viagra, and ALL NATURAL!  As far as I’m concerned, only treatments and drugs which have undergone rigorous scientific testing should be allowed to be marketed and used.  Everything belongs in the “scams” bucket.  If you’re so confident in the efficacy of chinese medicines, then conduct a double blind study with a few thousand participants, and we’ll look at the results then..

    • Richard says:

      09:50pm | 12/07/11

      Meh Andrew, I don’t care what you think. If you wan’t to close yourself off to a whole world of possibilities just because you’re narrow-minded, fine. Do what you like, you’re the one losing out.

      As for me, well I take Chinese Medicinal Herbs every day. For a gastric pain. I went to the Doctor, I described all the symptoms to him, I took all the blood tests and breath tests and whatever else other tests he sent me off to have, all the results came back negative, so as far as he was concerned there was nothing wrong with me. So I went on to the internet and bought a bottle of pills (Jian Pi Wan if anyone is interested, Black Pearl brand) for $5 and my symptoms completely resolved.

      Apparently it not uncommon for unexplained symptoms which orthodox medicine has no way of dealing with to be improved or cured through the use of Chinese Medicine, as these researchers have shown: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-1392181/Accupuncture-help-millions-patients-unexplained-symptoms.html?ITO=1490

    • braunman says:

      10:03am | 13/07/11

      @Richard,

      I hate to tell you this, but the daily mail isn’t exactly the most reliable news source. They’re a tabloid like The Sun or (until recently) News of the World. You shouldn’t rely on them for unbiased scientific advise.

    • atthepub says:

      06:49am | 12/07/11

      Tory, this is a genuine question. Do you think that there’s something wrong with grandma’s remedies? And if you do or don’t, where would you draw the line? And are you aware that many ‘medicine’ is based on herbs but artificially recreated in labs because herbs cannot be patented? Are you aware that stacks of illnesses come about because of stress and that massage/acupuncture and many other ‘alternate/age-old’ remedies relax and therefore cure people?

      Placebo can actually be the cheapest, quickest and most innocent meds to ever cure anyone. Surely there’s nothing wrong with that.

      It’s just that you seem to have such a hard line drawn in the sand and I really wonder where you draw the distinction?

    • malohi says:

      07:46am | 12/07/11

      There is nothing wrong with placebo…
      Except people who are most vulnerable ( sick or stupid) and perhaps requiring life saving medicine are either out of pocket or waste valuable time with the wares of charlitans.

      But I know you can’t comprehend this so I will give it a shot;
      This post has been blessed by an Indian e-Chieftain, after reading it you will mystically gain +10 intelligence allowing you to comprehend the undesirability of selling sick people things that do nothing.

    • NigelC says:

      07:57am | 12/07/11

      Complementary and alternative medicines that do have an effect are called ‘medicine’.

    • Tory Shepherd

      Tory Shepherd says:

      09:39am | 12/07/11

      Hi, atthepub - did you read down to this bit? “But what would help them along would be a more thorough grounding in science for all Australians so they are better equipped to sort good medicine from bad, and an independently produced, trustworthy list based on evidence and an evaluation of benefits and risks that sets therapies out in black and white – and all shades of grey. “

      I don’t think there is a strict line to draw. As I said higher up, some CAM work. But many don’t, and doctors can’t just prescribe stuff because people want it, because people can be fooled.

      I know many age-old remedies work, whether because of the placebo effect or, like St John’s Wort, they were used BECAUSE they work and it’s only later that people work out why.

      So no hard line in the sand, but equally better information and distinction.

    • Tory Shepherd

      Tory Shepherd says:

      09:40am | 12/07/11

      Oh, and also it’s not so much ‘grandma’s remedies’ that are the problem, it’s the multi-billion-dollar industry pumping out products that don’t work to a gullible public, who may avoid using meds that do work, which can be fatal.

    • atthepub says:

      10:35am | 12/07/11

      Thanks Tory, yes I did read down that far. The evidence based meds list for ‘all’ meds/therapies seems to be a few light years away though, there’s been talk about that for a while now. I understand where you’re coming from and couldn’t agree more re better info available to the general public. For some reason I was under the impression that you were vehemently against anything ‘natural’ and couldn’t understand why. So apologies if I misread this and some of your other posts on similar subjects.

    • Tory Shepherd

      Tory Shepherd says:

      01:16pm | 12/07/11

      I often have a dig at ‘natural’ remedies because it frustrates me that people think ‘natural’ means harmless, desirable, etc. . The word is just one of my personal bugbears!

    • antman says:

      02:52pm | 12/07/11

      Having studied science (chemistry) at Uni, I understand your frustration at the implication that “natural” means “safe”. Both arsenic and cyanide, to name a couple of very un-safe materials, are “natural”. It’s like hysteria over “chemicals”. What, may I ask, is everything in the “natural” world composed of if not chemicals?

    • deb says:

      06:57am | 12/07/11

      We stick to the one Doc we have faith in,straight down the line no frills.He is so good that appointments have to be made months in advance.
      Young, but old fashioned in his attitude. A real doctor like the one you could trust your whole family to.
      Not too many around,been to some who cant even take blood pressure! prescribe using the internet! scary, scary !
      No i wont tell you his name,to hard to get in to see him now.
      We travel half an hour just for a visit.

    • CJ Morgan says:

      07:41am | 12/07/11

      You forget another important area where CAM is useful, i.e. in the treatment of illness where there is no biomedical cure, or where the standard biomedical treatment has failed.  As a former medical professional who has recently had cancer surgery, I choose to use various herbal concoctions recommended by my GP, because they have a similar statistical success rate to chemotherapy and radiation, without the harmful side effects.

      I wish I could share the blind faith that many accord the biomedical establishment, but unfortunately I know too much about its monolithic nature. 

      @ TChong:  sorry mate, I used to think that, but very often the reason that Big Pharma doesn’t develop the medicines that are used in CAM is that they are commonplace substances that would be impossible to patent.  On the other hand, if there’s a profit in it, they’re only too happy to flog it.

      Efficacy isn’t what drives pharmaceutical companies - profit is.  Indeed, many of the medicines routinely prescribed by medical doctors and listed on the PBS simply don’t work in the majority of cases, or the condition isn’t common enough to be worth the R&D due to the costs involved.

      Having said that, I acknowledge that much CAM is bunkum.  Fortunately, it’s generally not all that expensive apart from initial consultations.  However, given the popularity of CAM I’d like to see somewhat better regular regulation of the sector, because there are plenty of snake-oil salesmen out there.

    • Palm Beach says:

      08:12am | 12/07/11

      For those interested in this subject who want to know more, from writer with great sens sense of humour, have a look at BAD SCIENCE by Ben Goldacre: “A fine lesson in how to skewer the enemies of reason and the peddlers of cant and half truths.”

    • Shane* says:

      09:02am | 12/07/11

      Punch Team, if you have a shred of journalistic integrity you’ll edit CJ Morgan’s comment. For someone facing the fear and uncertainty of a cancer diagnosis and the corresponding (PROVEN) treatment path, to read that a concoction of herbs will have the same effect as chemo or radio is patently wrong and occasionally dangerous.

      There is a limit to free speech, and that limit is placing others in harm’s way.

    • Tory Shepherd

      Tory Shepherd says:

      09:42am | 12/07/11

      Hi, Shane* sorry, we can’t just edit anything we don’t agree with. What CJ believes is rubbish that’s peddled all over the internet, so what we hope to do here is start a conversation about it.

    • Shane* says:

      09:52am | 12/07/11

      Thanks Tory, I understand your hands are largely tied by the “slippery slope” argument against moderation.

      Still, I worry that the more these comments are posted the more legitimacy the absolute garbage contained therein gathers.

      I hope people ignore CJ’s nonsense, and if you think there’s nothing dangerous about placing faith in alternative medicine, google Penelope Dingle.

    • Aaron says:

      10:33am | 12/07/11

      @Shane* and Tory, without knowing which herbal concoctions CJ is discussing how can you claim that he is talking bunkum? I’m not agreeing with CJ and neither am I agreeing with you.

      The main reason I don’t like getting involved in arguments around science is the whole “Prove it” “No you prove it” approach that seems to take place and that quite often people refuse to listen to the alternative arguments.

      To be honest in my opinion the worst thing that we ever discovered was radiation therapy and chemotherapy… breaking the hippocratic oath to maybe make someone “better” but most likely make them even sicker just doesn’t gel with me.

    • Lisa H. says:

      11:17am | 12/07/11

      “Efficacy isn’t what drives pharmaceutical companies - profit is”
      - if that’s the case< why don’t the pharma companies just save all the research bills, and sell herbal meds?
      Sick people will still buy.

    • Markus says:

      11:41am | 12/07/11

      @Aaron, it doesn’t matter which herbal concoction it is, as none of them stand up to scientific method.
      Claiming that they have a statistically similar success rate to chemo, an admittedly risky process but one which stands up to scientific method, is bunkum, dangerous bunkum.

    • Shane* says:

      12:05pm | 12/07/11

      @Aaron,

      More likely to make them sicker? I suggest you do some reading about cancer survival rates before and after chemo and radiotherapy became common, then get back to me. Until then your honestly held opinion is, in my honestly held opinion, worthless.

      “Prove it” vs “No you prove it!”?

      OK, I will - I can prove chemo and radio work. Can you prove anything else even approaches them for effectiveness? Somehow I doubt it.

      It’s not a two-way street mate. You have one side saying : “We know this works. Here’s the proof. Here are the double-blind longitudinal studies. Here are the chemical mechanisms that allow it to be so. Here are the peer-reviewed published papers supporting it. Here are the scans before and after treatment. Here is the survival data showing a rapid improvement after we introduced it. Here are the cured patients.”

      On the other side, you have people saying: “Yeah, well we think this works. We have no supporting evidence outside of personal anecdotes. We have no solid data. Any time it’s gone to clinical trial it’s been shown to have nothing more than placebo effect. We have many many people dying whilst taking our treatment but with the convenient “out” clause that they were too advanced when they presented for treatment or that they didn’t truly believe it would work, which is apparently necessary. We have an entire industry desperately trawling for a curative alternative therapy, but with nothing to show for it. We have a cavalcade of loonie subscribers who also propagate our twisted conspiracy theories about the pharmaceutical industry, an industry without which we would likely have life expectancy around 45. We believe that if one in ten of our patients get better, that is a good result. We believe the most successful public health initiative in human history (immunisation) is garbage. We believe water has a memory. We believe, we believe, we believe…”

      Like I said, it it comes down to a “you prove your treatment works!” debate, I’ve got you covered.

    • antman says:

      03:38pm | 12/07/11

      Having worked for a big pharma, I know it’s all about profit. For really big pharma companies, it’s only about mega-profit blockbusters these days, otherwise it won’t get developed. Likewise, pharmaceutical companies are unlikely to develop cure for many chronic diseases like Type 1 diabetes because there’s many times more profit to be earned from treating the disease than from curing it.

    • Shane* says:

      04:42pm | 12/07/11

      @antman, Your claims fail the logic test.

      Say Pharma Company X developed a cure for diabetes, but they supressed it because they want to keep those chronic sufferer dollars rolling in and they’re happy being one of (literally) thousands of other diabetes meds on the market.

      Seperately and a year later, Pharma Company Y develops the cure, patents it, and releases it to global acclaim, government rubber stamping, and a predetermined list of millions of patients willing to pay for it. They make BILLIONS AND BILLIONS OF DOLLARS while simultaneously rendering anything on the market from Company X totally obsolete.

      So, to recap, the company who release the cure make billions by cornering the market (Did someone say Viagra?!) the company that doesn’t release it risks letting someone else beating them to the punch, decimated sales and rendered obsolete by a fierce competitor.

      “Well then how come it’s not on the market then, Shane*? Why don’t they invest big in it hmmm? RIDDLE ME THAT!?”

      They DO. They’re all searching for a cure. It’s just that average Joe Punter prefers to think of medical progress as being something like Florey/Fleming and Penecillin, when in reality it takes years of tiny amounts of progress and linear development rather than one huge EUREKA moment.

      I’ve never worked in Pharma, nor do I intend to. They’ve done some bad stuff in the past, but to suggest that today they’re actively avoiding doing any work to look for cures? That’s nonsense mate. It would be morally wrong, sure, but it would make zero business sense to boot.

    • CJ Morgan says:

      05:24pm | 12/07/11

      Wow - defensive reactions much?

      For the benefit of the shills - I should have emphasised that my choices with respect to CAM post-cancer treatment is exactly that.  The specialists have done all they can, other than prolong my life in ways that will likely make it quite miserable.  The surgeons have successfully removed my tumours, but can do nothing to prevent reinvasion.

      Under these circumstances I’m personally prepared to have a look at alternative approaches, using herbal medicines that are well-known outside biomedicine.  They may well be bunkum, but they have no side effects and are relatively cheap.  So far so good - last CT scan showed no reinvasion, bloods are all good.

      Admittedly, I have a better-informed background to most people, and I am in no way advocating CAM instead of biomedical treatments that may effect a cure - so long as the medical professionals are honest about the treatments they prescribe.  I once had an oncologist tell my mother that, while her throat cancer was incurable, chemotherapy would “improve her quality of life”.

      Now that’s what I call bunkum.

    • CJ Morgan says:

      05:22am | 13/07/11

      Having slept on it, I’m still a little perplexed at the strength of negative reaction to my comment.  To reiterate, I made it crystal clear that I was talking about CAM being useful ” in the treatment of illness where there is no biomedical cure, or where the standard biomedical treatment has failed”.

      Surely in such instances it is none of allopathic medicine’s business what strategies patients employ once biomedicine fails them?

    • James Ricketson says:

      07:43am | 12/07/11

      I went to a doctor once wth an ailment. He said,“I can proscribe you some medicine to take and you will get better or you can take no medicine at all and you’ll get better.” I opted for the latter but, no doubt, if I had opted for the former I would be tempted to think that it was the medicine/acupunture/homeopathic remedy etc that had made me better.

      The placebo effect works in such a high proportion of cases that it is clear, when going to see a doctor, acupuncturist, chiropractor (name your healer of choice) at work, that the ‘treatment’ is not necessarily the thing that makes the patient well again. Having seen ‘witch doctors’ at work (and achieving results) there is clearly a large element of belief involved in healing - just as there is in religious belief systems. A ‘thorough grounding in science’ is not going to dent people’s faith in whatever alternative medicine they believe in and which works for them - anymore than scientific explanations for phenomena alter those of people who believe that Jesus was born of a virgin , that praying to Ganesh will remove obstacles in life or that lots of virgins await you in Paradise if you blow people up on busses.

    • iansand says:

      08:18am | 12/07/11

      I think it was Voltaire who said that medicine is the art of entertaining the patient while nature takes its course.  Of course that was pre-antibiotic medicine.

    • MelbourneStevo says:

      07:50am | 12/07/11

      To quote Tim Minchin, do you know what they call alternative medicines that work? Medicine!

    • Minger says:

      08:33am | 12/07/11

      Haha. Totally beat me to the punch… Storm is one of the greatest videos ever.

    • Ripped-off says:

      08:21am | 12/07/11

      It’s about consumer protection. When I buy a product - be it a car or medicine - I want it to do what it claims. If it is just lolly water dressed up as an anti-cancer treatment, that is fraud. Treat it as such.

    • iansand says:

      08:21am | 12/07/11

      I have heard it said (I don’t know if it’s true) that aspirin, being a derivative of willow bark and thus a herbal remedy, would not be given regulatory approval if it came onto the market today.  Has anyone worked out how aspirin works?

    • bella starkey says:

      09:27am | 12/07/11

      The chemical that is the active ingredient in asprin ( salicylic acid, which does wonders for zits by the way) is found in nature. The version that comes in tablet form is synthesised for a number of reasons, namely to control the dosage.

      Herbal remedies as such aren’t immune from regulation, it’s just that companies that make them never specifically claim that the have any effect so they avoid the whole rigmarole of having to prove that they work.

      Ever noticed that on your bottle of vitamins it says “may help” rather than saying it actually does something?

    • Mark says:

      09:56am | 12/07/11

      Cyclooxygenase (COX-I and COX-II) inhibition.

    • F-Point says:

      10:01am | 12/07/11

      It may have been said, but it is wrong.  Acetylsalicylic acid’s mechanism of action has been known since the 70’s.. Vane won a Nobel Prize, and a knighthood for working it out.  It inhibits an enzyme called cyclo-oxygenase which is important in the body’s synthesis of prostaglandin (which have lots of functions) and thromboxane (blood clotting).

    • julebri says:

      10:07am | 12/07/11

      Hi Ian,

      Aspirin would have no hope of passing regulatory approval if it was discovered today, mainly due to toxicity concerns, not because it comes from Willow Bark.

      Aspirin works in the same was as Nurofen and Voltaren etc.  It acts on Cyclooxygenase, an enzyme that is involved in the inflammation pathway that ultimately transmits pain to nerves.

    • pat says:

      10:07am | 12/07/11

      Virtually all drugs come from nature sooner or later, even illicit drugs that are seen as purely synthetic such as speed (ephedrine from a plant known as ephedra) and MDMA (MDP2P from safrole from sassafras).  Aspirin irreversibly inhibits cycloxygenase for the life of the platelet inhibiting the ability to produce thromboxane and adhere to the site of vascular injury.

    • chungo mung says:

      08:29am | 12/07/11

      All you fools that bang on against CAM so flatly are ignorant of the realities of modern medicine. Is it not relevant that modern medicine has lead to antibiotic resistant strains of microbe? Is it not relevant that there are wards in hospitals full of accident survivors who are able to do nothing more than lie still on a bed, get wheeled around the ward and slowly chew nutritious mush due to brain damage and paralysis? Is it not relevant that there has been so much failure in western medicine that the industry is so closely aligned to the litigation industry?

      It is relevant, because what CAM represents is an opportunity to travel a philosophical middle path that may help us to balance out our approach to medicine. The ‘pure’ results (outside of broader context) orientated approach to medicine doesn’t focus on prevention and often fails to see the broader contexts of health issues and realities.

      Here in the modern western world many of us are so righteous about our ways that we are quick to assume that everyone else has got it wrong.

    • julebri says:

      10:13am | 12/07/11

      I’m not sure your philosophical middle path will be much use when your appendix bursts and you expect your surgeon to perform without modern anaesthetics.

      Quick grab the bottle of Ether and hope for the best.

      Better grab a stick to bite on as well, surgery really hurts without anaesthesia.

    • James1 says:

      10:33am | 12/07/11

      “Is it not relevant that there are wards in hospitals full of accident survivors who are able to do nothing more than lie still on a bed, get wheeled around the ward and slowly chew nutritious mush due to brain damage and paralysis?”

      Is it not relevant that these accident survivors would be dead without conventional medicine?  Is it not relevant that without antibiotics, hundreds of millions of people would have died from infections that can be easily cured?  Is it not relevant that we expect modern medicine not to fail to the extent that people sue when it doesn’t acheive the desired result?

      It seems that, in your rush to go down a philosophical middle path, you have overlooked all the good the conventional medicine has done.

    • chungo mung says:

      11:30am | 12/07/11

      I never sugested to throw out all biomedical answers and approaches julebri, your attitude is exactly what I am talking about “quick grab the bottle of ether and hope for the best” - is a simplified generalisation… where did i say that anaethesia was bad for surgery? righteous negative assumptions that dramatise the debate instead of expanding it is the talk of people without the ability to think outside the square. - Of course one needs to be informed and carefull when replacing proven methods of the western model with alternative methods, but being informed and understanding reality can only occur with awareness and without simple quick answers based on dramatic opinion.

      And James, it is relevant that antibiotics works, indeed, it is also relevant that antibiotics is now causing new concerns. I have not overlooked conventional methods, I have only suggested openness to CAM as western biomedical approaches do not have all the answers nor present all the options.

      This is not a world of black and white or hippies and total science believers, it may be easier to comprehend our world by simplifying understanding to this model, but it does not help us to expand and further knowledge in the most effective way.

    • atthepub says:

      12:03pm | 12/07/11

      Nice point julebri. True story. Parent of two teenagers ends up in hospital with ruptured appendix. Due to septicemia doctors decide against operation. Instead put patient on iv and pump patient full of antibiotics to which patient is allergic. Patient gets kicked out of hospital (too hard basket). Daughters phone around every doctor in their country town, and not one is prepared to visit this new patient in town whose appendix ruptured as soon as the removal truck was unloaded.

      Parent is at home, can’t even keep down water. Daughters shave ice and put on parents tongue to keep alive, is clearly on the way out. Daughters visit a naturopath who prescribes pyrogen and cleavers. After a year of prayer, initially pyrogen and cleavers and later on some other herbs, parent who has been unable to get up from the bed is slowly starting to recover without any operation, doctors visits or meds.

      If it had been up to any of the doctors in our town, I would not be writing this, I would have been 6 ft under a few years ago.

      I’ve been involved in the medical industry for 25 years and unimpressed.

      True story which can be verified.

      pyrogen http://www.homeotreatment.com/pyrogen.htm
      cleavers http://www.herbosophy.com.au/Cleavers.html

    • Markus says:

      12:03pm | 12/07/11

      Openness to a specific CAM will come as a direct result of said CAM actually holding up to scientific method.

      Until such time, it has no place being recommended in medical science, either as an alternative or as a complementary treatment.

    • julebri says:

      12:27pm | 12/07/11

      And here’s the rub chungo,

      In a world of grey science, no right or wrong, who decides where to draw the line? 

      I’m backing the guy with evidence based research on his side.

    • julebri says:

      01:16pm | 12/07/11

      @ atthepub

      A truly remarkable story.

      Can’t help but think a better response from the medical profession would have saved you months in a near death state.

    • Lexi says:

      08:42am | 12/07/11

      I beg to differ today, Tory. My gyn/ob did loads of tests when my hubby and I were trying to fall pregnant. They revealed I had low progesterone and this was why we weren’t falling pregnant. I had two sessions of acupuncture and fell pregnant. You can say it was coincidence or placebo effect if you like. I call it success. When I had a threatened misscarriage, the doctors wouldn’t do the test I was asking for and I was getting progressively more distraught. Went to my acupuncturist again - after one visit I went from hysterical to calm and the bleeding stopped. Again - you can call it what you like, but I say it worked. And I’d use it again in a heartbeat. A few single use needles has got to be better than taking a host of synthetic hormones, which would have been the doctor’s solution to low progesterone.
      I’m not saying alternative medicine is appropriate for all scenarios, but then neither is western medicine. Yep, I still go to the GP for antibiotics, tests, diagnosis, among other things. But I won’t close my mind to other safe treatments.

    • mark says:

      11:35am | 12/07/11

      Ummm, Lexi. I think you need to read up on what the placebo effect actually is. The example you have given sounds exactly like a placebo effect. You were so convinced that acupuncture was going to help you that you settled down and got pregnant anyway. Whos to say that you wouldn’t have got pregnant without acupuncture. You can still get pregnant with low progesterone is just that the chances are significantly reduced. Note the use to the word “Chance”. That is what getting pregnant is all about. My wife got pregnant 3 months after having surgery to remove a cist from her ovary (the ovary had to be completely removed). She got pregnant in one of her first cycles, firing on one cylinder. There is no “do this and you will get pregnant” process.

    • mark says:

      11:44am | 12/07/11

      The safest treatment in the world is one that doesn’t do anything in the first place.

    • Kika says:

      12:32pm | 12/07/11

      I think there IS something in acupuncture. It makes sense. If you hit certain pressure points I’m sure the body reacts.
      Sounds as though you may need to see an endocrinologist though to work out why your hormone levels aren’t stable. If you have an underlying thyroid issue such as Hashimotos this can affect your body’s ability to produce progesterone.

    • Jimbo says:

      12:32pm | 12/07/11

      Lexi, there are very few people and couples that are completely infertile. The conception rates for couples are 20% in one month, 85% in a year, and 97% in three years. Hence, if you keep trying you are very likely to fall pregnant eventually, even if one or both partners has factors lowering their fertility.

      It saddens me that many people have no understanding whatsoever of the difference between correlation and causation. To use a very simple example, people that carry lighters are much more likely to get lung cancer than those who don’t. Obviously the lighter doesn’t cause the cancer, the smoking does.

      Another example are those graphs showing that global temperatures have increased as the number of pirates has declined. There is a correlation between the two factors, but I very much doubt that the decline in pirate numbers has caused an increase in global temperatures.

    • Tory Shepherd

      Tory Shepherd says:

      01:18pm | 12/07/11

      Acupuncture’s an interesting one, which is why I singled it out along with St John’s Wort. There’s evidence it is effective in some cases - but on the other hand practitioners claim it’s effective for a much broader range of problems than it actually is.

    • atthepub says:

      02:32pm | 12/07/11

      I watched a certain doctor put in needles in many different patients with many different ailments and he often would put the needles in the same places. Often these patients would fall asleep during treatment and swear by the treatment. When I asked doc why the same treatment for all these different ailments, he would say; I put the needles along the meridians where it relaxes the patient regardless of their condition. They come in once or twice a week, relax, have a good sleep and everything doesn’t seem so bad after that.

      Placebo? Who knows. Effective? Most patients swore by it. With chronic illnesses sometimes that’s as good as it gets.

    • OchreBunyip says:

      08:52am | 12/07/11

      The main misconception regarding medicine is that doctors know all there is to know about the human body and the properties of every plant and substance on the planet. Granted, in these matters they are far more educated than the punters but there is a lot that is still unknown. Along the way we’ll try out new ideas, many will turn out to be bunkum but some will turn out to be valuable. Recent research into chronic pain management, as one example, has revealed new approaches to pain management that rely on the body’s natural responses. It looks like quackery but it works, and modern pain measurement techniques prove it works.

    • Lisa H. says:

      11:15am | 12/07/11

      I get you completely!
      Doctors don’t know everything…but they are far more educated than the punters…(punters such as naturopaths, and even nursing staff *shock*)
      And yes, research science has a lot further to go.

      But…which doctor do you know has told you that s/he ‘knows everything’?
      Every scientist / biologist / medical doctor I know readily admits that research is ongoing.
      Good doctors constantly update their knowledge as well.
      Science is an unfolding journey.

    • Kika says:

      12:52pm | 12/07/11

      6 years + of university study into anatomy, biology, pharmacy etc… I don’t know. I think I’d trust them to know more about these things than me.

    • Dave says:

      09:02am | 12/07/11

      I am all for your personal favourite!!!!

    • Tory Shepherd

      Tory Shepherd says:

      09:43am | 12/07/11

      *shudder*

    • Jim says:

      09:04am | 12/07/11

      Because of the industry I work in I face the prospect of random drug testing every morning. If I have a cold or flu I can’t take the normal tablets as they contain codeine which will show up on a screen…so I take the herbal ones instead. They work fine. I’ve also used acupuncture as a last resort for tendon damage in my arm…it didn’t do a damn thing.

    • The Badger says:

      10:02am | 12/07/11

      It would seem to me that someone who is subject to drug testing on a random basis, would know a little bit more about it than you do.
      There is no reason why you can’t take a cold or flu medication that has codeine in it.
      What you can’t do is drink an entire bottle.
      Drug screens to which you are subjected are designed to indicate the presence of certain drugs in your urine or saliva (depending on your companies preference) and only register if an amount is detected above a certain level. The level is set so that you don’t get a presumed positive when taking these types of over the counter flu medications in recommended doses.
      In any event, should you get a presumed positive, a sample will be sent off to a pathology lab which will then run a gas chromatography mass spectrometry analysis of your “sample” and it will be determined that you indeed had “flu medication” in your sample.
      So when the tester asks you if you have had any medications before taking your sample, just tell them yes and you’ll be right - unless you drank the whole bottle on the way to work
      NO positive.
      PS - you are more likely to have pseudoephedrine show up than codeine.

    • fairsfair says:

      11:12am | 12/07/11

      Well at my workplace Badge (because there is no lab out the back) we just do a saliva test. It shows up red if there is any presence, nothing if you are clear. If you return a red response you are required to fill in a five page document about what you have taken and the reasoning, if that is deemed unacceptable by managment you are sent home via the doctor for a blood test.

      Maybe Jim is just trying to avoid the repercussions of the positive response? Maybe he doesn’t want he conversation with his boss that he is not a drug addict, he just has a sniffle. He is not the only one.

      Codiene is illegal in Greece. It is an opiate and Psudoephedrine is an amphetamine. Both raise markers that you have to explain your way out of.

    • Richard says:

      11:24am | 12/07/11

      Why always the clamour by some to say that Acupuncture does not work? When you see the lack of efficacy of some allopathic treatments - (even surgery) then it’s possible to conclude that nothing is 100% - nor ever could be. It’s to be hoped that any such treatment is put in the hands of properly trained Traditional Acupuncturists ( i.e. members of the Australian Acupuncture and Chinese Medicine Association (AACMA) or similar) - who have undergone a minimum of four years training in an approved training institution. If so, and you allow the treatment enough time to work (its a gentle, gradual approach, not a once of thing bam you’re done type of thing), you have good prospects for recovery.

    • Lisa H. says:

      11:54am | 12/07/11

      Science is a process.
      It’s not an ‘exclusive’, either-or scenario of ‘western science medicine’ vs ‘the world’.
      As research into popular herbs / practices such as acupuncture continues, they will become part of ‘western medical practice’.
      And only people with an axe to grind will have a problem with that.
      personally, I welcome the refinement of dose rates, actives, full understanding of effects and side-effects (if any).
      The real issue is that herbal / natural medicine companies are currently happy to take the profits, selling on rumours and half-truths but avoiding Therapeutic Goods Act administration or proper testing as much as possible, because it is extremely costly to run adequate scientific tests!

    • The Badger says:

      12:03pm | 12/07/11

      Fairsfair

      You have progressive management in that they are testing for the psycho-active component of drugs (the stuff that makes you high) by using saliva as the drug screening mechanism. Urine tests, test for metabolites which are the by products of drugs and only indicate that you have consumed drugs at some time in the past.
      For example, someone who smoked a joint of marijuana can test positive for weeks after the fact and would obviously not be under the influence of the psycho active component of the drug and obvious;y not be impaired. It is for this reason that urine testing for marijuana punishes the worker who may indulge in this activity days before they return to work in a fit for duty state.
      You can only be confirmed to be positive by a GCMS or other mass spectrometry test.
      I’m sure there is no 5 page document that needs to be filled out and in any event, the burden of proof is on management to prove you are in excess of the limits set out in the relevant standards (urine or saliva).
      PS - A doctor or nurse can draw blood, but the testing for drugs can only be quantified by a certified pathology lab.

      Jim doesn’t understand the technicalities of drug testing.
      One of the first things you are asked in any drug screen is whether you have taken any medications, prescription of otherwise. FYI, there are prescription drugs that will give false indications for drugs on the screening test and that is one of the reasons you are asked the question.

    • fairsfair says:

      01:10pm | 12/07/11

      Badger, you are unreal champ.

      I am sure you know more about my workplace’s drug testing practices than I do. Carry on.

    • Jim says:

      01:46pm | 12/07/11

      What fairsfair said ^^

      A false positive is still a positive for all intents when it comes to paperwork and a big please explain. You won’t find many people in mining that take the risk of using a normal Codral in case they get screened. FYI Badgina - I’ve worked for several companies over the last 15 years, each one has a different policy regarding prescription meds. Some require a form to be filled out as soon as you start taking them, some give you the opportunity to declare them before a test, others don’t. But I’m glad you know more about my workplace than I do…

      And Richard - I’m not rubbishing acupuncture. I know a lot of people that swear by it…it just did nothing for me.

    • The Badger says:

      06:16pm | 12/07/11

      jim,
      Only a “sample” delivered through a chain of custody to a pathology lab can be used to determine whether or not you have tested positive to a prohibited drug.
      If you don’t know that, you don’t know shit.
      The Onus is on your employer to prove you are impaired and above the standards set out in your company policy, which by the way incorporates AS/NZ 4308:2008. Your company tests for metabolites in urine. This is the standard they test to.
      If you policy sends you home to await confirmation from the pathology lab, that’s their policy. No disciplinary action can be taken against an employee because he screens positive. The positive screen must be confirmed through quantitative testing via mass spectrometry.
      That’s the way it is. You show your ignorance by refuting what I know to be true.
      Now go clean that black dust off your face, walk down to OH&S come back and apologise when you get my facts confirmed.

    • James1 says:

      10:19am | 12/07/11

      I know a husband and wife chiropractor team who love CAM and refuse to vaccinate their children.  At the moment, three of their five kids have whooping cough.  One in particular has had it for nearly three months.

    • AdamC says:

      10:38am | 12/07/11

      The hysteria around vaccination is terribly damaging.

    • fairsfair says:

      10:43am | 12/07/11

      I was not immunised for whooping cough as my mother had an epileptic fit at age 15 and for some reason the doctors realised at the time of immunisation of her third child that I may have an adverse reaction to the vaccine.

      I was 5/6 when I got whooping cough and I remember it vividly. My brother and sister had it and were over it in 2 weeks. I had it for 6 months and was skin and bone with a tiny afro. It was not a good time for me. I still remember twenty years later what it felt like to cough repeatedly until you vomited up stomach acid every hour or so. You could get about ten minutes sleep once the pain died down and the coughing started again. I remember being so thirsty and tired and not being able to even drink water.

      You can jam CAM for serious stuff. I am all for trying out accupuncture on injury and muscles etc - but for actual illness - get off. My father has seen some pretty good results from accupuncture on his stroke but after being diagnosed with prostate cancer in 2009 and chatting to his accupuncturist about his treatment options we realised it is just a crock. He wanted $25 000 to travel to china to pick up some herbs (tiger penis, eye of newt or christ knows what to probably only get busted by border security on his arrival) and return to treat my dad. We contemplated doing both in tandem (radium, hormone treatment plus chinese medicine), but no - it was all or nothing. Needless to say radiation won out and thankfully my dad’s cancer is gone.

      I think it is so sad that people are caught up in it.

    • Lisa H. says:

      11:08am | 12/07/11

      Absolutely pathetic parenting.

    • 70 Liberal Punch Trolls says:

      10:37am | 12/07/11

      Chill out in the cold weather, Tory ! Ask the Tea Party about coffee edemas.

    • 70 Liberal Punch Trolls says:

      10:39am | 12/07/11

      I will leave the vagina blowing to you, Tory! Chill out in the cold weather, Tory!

    • stockinbingal roo says:

      10:49am | 12/07/11

      I’m surprised I thought Punch readers hated everything to do with Science, make up your minds please.

    • Erick says:

      11:17am | 12/07/11

      You’re surprised because you think things that are wrong.

    • mark says:

      11:07am | 12/07/11

      It should be noted that many doctors in Australia have already tried to incorporate this into their practices but have failed. I can give you a direct account of this. My mother is a GP and works in a practice with other GPs. One of those GPs decided to look into incorporating some of the alternative therapies into the practice and signed herself up to a natural therapy course to see what all the fuss was about. She approached it with an open mind. After sitting in this course for no more than a week, she had to leave because she couldn’t take it anymore. The peddling of half knowledge, extremely simplified ideas of how the human body works or blatantly inaccurate theories by people who’s academic qualifications were not worth the photocopier paper they were printed on was more than she could handle.

      The experience did have one positive effect. She told me she came to the realisation of why these therapies were so popular. Because they are simple!!! They are dumbed down medicine/science that can be used in a simple marketing ploy. Like the adds on TV that seem to assume that scientist spend all day looking a computer images of big black spiky things (these are bad) being destroyed by nice blue blobby things (these are good) with the explanation that this is how you achieve health. People in today’s society have a control freak mentality that does not allow them to simply trust those employed in advanced fields such as medicine that they dont understand. What natural therapies offer is a simple, easily explainable solution to what makes you feel unwell. The problem is that the Human body is far from simple. It is one of the most complex organisms that has ever existed on earth. The solutions to ailments are not simple and bodily processes cannot be accurately explained by the level of ‘toxins’ in your body.

      The other great mistake that people make is the natural myth. That is that “what is good is always natural and what is natural is always good”. This has basically fuelled the work ‘Natural’ as a marketing gold mine. Just about every produce these days has Natural written somewhere on it. The reality is that the vast majority of things in nature (assuming nature to be mostly referring to plant life or plant processes) are toxic to the human organism. Dont believe me? well let me give you some examples. Tobacco, Marijuana, Arsenic, Poison Ivy, Alcohol (yes fermentation is a natural process), poppies….... only to mention those off the top of my head. The list goes on. With this in mind you ask yourself what is the point of natural? In order to determine if something is toxic, natural products should go through the same tests as artificial products. Problem is they dont. Thats why they are cheap to produce. The true difference between natural and artificial is really in our heads. Nature doesn’t adapt to suit our wellness needs. It adapts to survive. Having positive effects on human health is not a survival trait.

    • F-Point says:

      11:55am | 12/07/11

      Awesome comment.

      A few additional naturals: Cyanide, Ricin, Botulinum toxin

    • Shane* says:

      12:11pm | 12/07/11

      Thread Winner: “Nature doesn’t adapt to suit our wellness needs. It adapts to survive.”

    • Adrian says:

      01:52pm | 12/07/11

      Mark I think I love you.

    • atthepub says:

      02:45pm | 12/07/11

      Drink too much water and you drown.

    • Richard says:

      11:54am | 12/07/11

      “(John Dwyer) says many people are sold on the pleasures of CAM, of long appointments with massages and conversation, false promises and placebos”

      John Dwyer says nonsense. Everything depends on the circumstances. For example, one of the most common complaints to the Doctor these days are headaches. Now if the headaches are tension headaches being caused by tight neck, shoulder and scalp muscles, then “long appointments with massages” are EXACTLY what is required, preferably deep tissue massage, with additional acupuncture as well to amplify the effect. There is simply no other treatment a conventional Doctor can prescribe in this case that would be as efficacious as a long, deep, muscle relaxing massage and acupuncture session.

      And I mean, what does a psychologist do if not have “conversations” with their patients. That is exactly what they do, the only thing they do, but you never hear narrow-minded doubters banging on about psychology being “placebo”, even though they don’t do anything else but talk to the patient (for a price of $150 per hour no less as well, far more expansive than any normal CAM appointment).

      And this nonsense about “placebos” is the most bandied about but useless word in this debate. You do realise what a placebo even is, don’t they? Its just a sugar pill: that’s it. So the theory is that sugar is always in your body, its normal for sugar to be in your body. So if all you’ve taken is a sugar pill and you get better, then it must be all in your mind, because nothing physically has changed from normal.

      But with a physical discipline like acupuncture, something actually HAS changed, something that’s not normally in your body HAS been put into your body (i.e. the needles). So if a change is brought about, it by definition CANNOT be placebo, because a very definite therapeutic intervention was applied.

      I don’t know why medico snobs seem to be waging a continual war against CAM these days. They have all the statist regulation and socialist market intervention on their side with Medicare and the AMA etc. The deck is stacked in their favour, yet they still launch these regular tirades against things they don’t understand and don’t even seem to be interested in learning about. Why? They feel their monopoly is threatened? Stiff! Let the market decide. People are generally intelligent and know what’s best for themselves. If something works for them, they are the only ones who can know it, and their opinion is the only one that counts.

      It is a terribly condescending attitude of his (and yours Tory) to think that all people are dumb and they need to be protected and they don’t know what’s good for them so they have to be told what to do and given no options. Back off! Give people their freedom and let them discover what’s best for their own self in their own unique circumstances.

    • Kassandra says:

      01:47pm | 12/07/11

      That’s not what placebo (effect) is. It is the non-specific effects of receiving treatment as distinct from the specific effect of the treatment given. The only way to tell the difference is to have a controlled trial where a presumed effective treatment is compared with a non-specific intervention or sham treatment (the placebo).

      The placebo effect is, in essence, the power of belief : the effect that the person’s beliefs about receiving a treatment or procedure has on the outcome. This can be positive or negative and it can be very powerful. Primitive magic ceremonies resulting in death (voodoo, pointing the bone etc) act through the victim’s belief that they will die. There’s a very good book on the placebo effect by Jerome Frank called “Persuasion and Healing” which is old now but has never been bettered imo.

      The three main forms of pseudo-treatment effects (where a remedy or intervention appears to have had an effect but this effect is non-specific or illusory) are placebo effect, spontaneous remission and regression to the mean. These are the reasons for CAM (not to mention traffic fines and speed cameras) seeming to be effective when they really aren’t.

    • Richard says:

      02:31pm | 12/07/11

      Kassandra, you don’t know what you’re talking about. You’re just regurgitating the same old trite conventional wisdom. Pro-tip, its not an insult against you when people recover from using CAM, and just because your mind is too inflexible to conceive the reason why, doesn’t mean you’re justified to just dismiss it away and pretend it doesn’t happen.

      You know, the Taoists were the first scientist on earth. They were the first people to use observation and deduction, to formulate theories and hypotheses and test them. They invented hang-gliding, they invented gun powder, they invented medicine. Yet the language they used to describe their science was poetic and artistic: very hard to fully grasp if you’re going to be so stuck in your dogmatic ignorance like Kassandra is. But that doesn’t detract from its validity. Scientifically, we know there is bio-chemical electro-magnetic energy in the body, we know this! But when a Taoist comes along and says the word “Qi” you all roll your eyes around and act as if he’s a quack. That’s bullshit! He is just speaking in a different language, why you wanna be so xenophobic?

      Also, Chinese medicine, like many other Chinese sciences, defines data on the basis of the inductive and synthetic mode of cognition. Inductivity corresponds to a logical link between two effective positions existing at the same time in different places in space. (Conversely, causality is the logical link between two effective positions given at different times at the same place in space.) In other words, effects based on on positions that are separate in space yet simultaneous in time are mutually inductive and thus are called inductive effects. In Western science prior to the development of electrodynamics and nuclear physics (which are founded essentially on inductivity), the inductive nexus was limited to subordinate uses in protosciences such as astrology. Now Western man, as a consequence of two thousand years of intellectual tradition, persists in the habit of making causal connections first and inductive links, if at all, only as an afterthought. This habit must still be considered the biggest obstacle to an adequate appreciation of Chinese science in general and Chinese medicine in particular.

    • F-Point says:

      03:20pm | 12/07/11

      Richard,
      If you’re going to bang on with a whole lot of words that mean little (para 3), you should quote your source.  Otherwise its known at plagiarism.

      Regardless, Kassandra does seem to know exactly what she’s talking about.

    • Kassandra says:

      03:39pm | 12/07/11

      Richard, go to China and see what kind of medicine they practice there today. It is predominantly orthodox (scientific) medicine much the same as here, but what diagnostic and treatment resources you have access to depends on where you live and what connections and/or money you have.

    • Richard says:

      04:11pm | 12/07/11

      Yes Kassandra, I did a Level 8 Internship at Ruikang Hospital in Nanning China 3 years ago. And I can tell you that best practice in China involves extensive use of acupuncture, massage and herbal medicine, for both in-patients and out-patients, in conjunction with orthodox medicine. And what is wrong with that?

      Kassandra, you lack practical understanding of CAM at the coal-face. When it comes down to real, lived experience for individuals, ” placebo effect, spontaneous remission, regression to the mean”, whatever, it doesn’t matter. All that matters whether or not the individual experiences benefits, whether the individual gets better. Sometimes things can’t be explained. If they could, it would mean that we already possess all knowledge, but we don’t.

      But why do you seek to deny honest CAM practitioners there skill? That skill did not come easily, it was hard fought for. And it involves opening up one’s mind to a completely different mode of thinking, and that is also very hard. But its quite galling for many poor CAM practitioners to beaver away working very hard to learn and practice their craft, only to have all their work just dismissed away by people like you who are really far less informed than they think they are.

      For example, I had a patient come to me the other day for his fourth session, and he was really ecstatic about the positive results we have obtained with his chronic back injury, saying that for the first time in years he was able run and around and play soccer and fall over and everything without any pain or discomfort whatsoever (this is in the context of a severe and debilitating chronic condition arising from a terrible accident which necessitated 3 months in hospital at the time).

      Then he told me that his daughter is studying to be a surgeon. “Cool” I said. “Nah” he shook his head, “she told me that its all in my head.”

      All in his head! I mean, wtf? He has a real legitimate back problem… I put sharp physical objects into the muscles of his back, and use intricate sophisticated techniques/manipulations to designed to bring about an effect (which I spent more than 4 years learning btw)... subsequently his back get DOES better… but somehow its supposed to be “all in his head”?  How ridiculous.

      Its cannot be “in his head”, it is most definitely in his back. So it cannot be placebo. It cannot be reversion to the mean, or else why did a years long problem only start to get better when I started to apply therapeutic intervention. You then say “oh so it must me spontaneous remission”, but acupuncture is only designed to assist the body to heal itself anyway, so that is exactly the kind of positive effect I’m talking about.

      Luckily, this patient’s real world experience trumps the narrow, bigoted indoctrinations of the medico-snob system, and he has not only continued to be my patron, but referred many other people along to see me as well. As it should be. But no thanks to people like you Kassandra who perpetuate ignorance under the guise of scientific understanding, when all you’re doing is pedaling jealous arrogance.

      And F-point, because you asked so nicely, here is your reference: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Traditional_Chinese_medicine

    • Lisa H. says:

      07:11pm | 12/07/11

      According to a rather shocking article I read recently, up to 90 per cent of pre-psychosis diagnoses can be false. I’m not sure psychology or even psychiatry is out of the ‘quack’ box yet, based on these figures.

      Is current mental health treatment good science or a CAM?

      http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=12185

    • Kika says:

      12:46pm | 12/07/11

      I think it comes down to the placebo effect. If you ‘think’ what you are doing is ‘healing’ then psychosematically I think you can help your body do what it’s capable of doing anyway. 
      I think it’s hard to branch all alternative remedies into one basket too. Acupuncture and other Chinese style medicines has something to say for itself. Same with Ayurveda. But both of these have been practiced for thousands of years and studied and are still along the lines of trying to understand the human body physiology and working medicinal plants and herbs to help the body work as it should.

      But where does it end? Reiki? Iridology? Entrail examination?

      I am concerned for people being taken advantaged of in their weakness.

    • SalC says:

      12:51pm | 12/07/11

      I was recommended acupuncture for my IBS and after a few sessions I was feeling so much better.  After relaying this to my gastroenterologist I asked him what he would have recommended had I not told him and his answer was, there’s nothing more I can do.

    • Darragh Scully says:

      12:53pm | 12/07/11

      I have not read all the comments today. I just skipped past them. Im not sure even if anyone else has mentioned this then but…....Does anyone get the feeling there is a primer in this story for a release about corruption in the Pharmacy industry. Take how doctors were taking bribes from Pharmaceutical companies in Australia, and forgive me because I cant find the reference for that at the minute.

      Though more recently ‘Corrupt’ drug firm practices exposed (MILES KEMP From: The Advertiser January 30, 2010 12:01am) noted that there is a distinct connection to economic reasoning between Doctors and Pharmaceutical companies. What did the Doctors get out of it? Not quite sure though the above article I tried to find…no wait a minute there it is.

      “This was one of 14,649 “educational events” put on by drug companies in Australia in six months at a cost of a $31 million. According to researchers from the University of Newcastle, this works out to an average of 600 events a week and about $1000 a year spent on each Australian doctor. It may seem a big investment, but the companies get access to doctors, the key to more than $10 billion annual sales to patients. In exchange, doctors learn about new treatments and get points towards professional development requirements.” (Doctors’ danger swallowing drug companies’ line. Miranda Rout From: The Australian March 06, 2010 12:00AM http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/health-science/doctors-danger-swallowing-drug-companies-line/story-e6frg8y6-1225837527835 )

      So whats in it for the Doctors to prescribe CAM. I wonder right now if Doctors can see past the money and think about what they are doing more reasonably? I mean taking Bribes from Pharma like Schering-Plough to promote their product to patients, cooking the research figures and publishing bogus papers (http://www.naturalnews.com/clinical_trials.html) just to get Kickbacks from the pharmacy companies. How can CAM compete with that when we all know how much Doctors get paid and its alot more than you and I and ussually alot more than the Tax department or the Police can keep tabs on.

      Then again after studying Chemistry a little bit I feel like there is a fair amount of Hype of CAM v Mainstream Medicine. Alot of mainstream medicine works and you cant argue with it for that reason. There in lays the channel that illegitimate profitering can go. CAM isint new. Its mostly old traditional remedies that have since been advanced upon. Though you do have to wonder. Since 1945 or so there has been a huge supply of white collar crime. One main areas is the buying of patents that work better than whats in the production lines for the purpose of concealing it as a secret and keeping a dominant position in the market. Green technology, Oxygen Therapy…nuff said. Not nearly enough. But you dont have to much time to dwell on it. Though I sense in the force we will see a rather large Medical related scam broadcasted about the place in the next few weeks.

    • Fiddler says:

      02:00pm | 12/07/11

      I have a friend who used to go out with a GP. This GP netted close to forty thousand a month. I really don’t think a $1000 a years worth of junkets would influence them that much

    • darragh scully says:

      03:34pm | 12/07/11

      I have to aggree with you Fids.
      Not all of them will take it.
      Then again if the hard sell is put on you strong enough what would you do.
      Its really up to someone to keep the whole industry regulated.
      Clearly the ones who are tempted by the bonuses are going to mess with other peoples lives. Take those psychiatric drugs for example and the side effects they have on people.
      Whats it like Dating a doctor? I wonder. Do you ever get to see someone who earns that much a month. The hours must be like shocking.

    • mark says:

      08:18am | 13/07/11

      “How can CAM compete with that when we all know how much Doctors get paid and its alot more than you and I and ussually alot more than the Tax department or the Police can keep tabs on.”

      You made on major incorrect assumption with that statement. The most CAM peddlers are poor struggling hippies trying to make ends meat. The CAM industry in Australia is worth Billions and there are several self made millionaires who have gotten rich of the supply of these herbal products and services. CAM is not a cottage industry its a money making monster. The influence on doctors is not that CAM cannot raise the funds its more that they cannot raise the credibility.

      I would also like to mention that most CAM treatments are also new. Things like detox treatments are new ideas peddled as old ones. Most of the treatments that are old come from the days when we used to bleed people or put leeches on them (basically to get the bad blood out). Yes some of our treatments from the past have evolved and been improved. I believe its called modern medicine.

    • James Hunter says:

      01:14pm | 12/07/11

      I find St Johns Wort the most effective and side effect free anti depressant that I have used. I have tried many prescription ones some with realybad side effects like diahrroea ,night time sweats,short term memory loss.
      The only prescription thing that is as effective is Welbutrin but it is not on the PBS so is too expensive fo me.
      St Johns Wort is the single most Prescribed anti depressant in Germany but here it is only concidered a quackery by most doctors and nearly all psychiatrists.
      So either the Germans are stupid and I am mistaken in my belief that it works or there is some sort of either colluysion to keep things the drug companies cant make money from of the shelves or medical professionals rely too much for imformation from drug companies and dont do enough home work..
      What ever it works for me. ( and for some others that I have recomended it to.)

    • Shane* says:

      01:55pm | 12/07/11

      Actually St John’s Wort is one of the few “alternative” medicines to have proven efficacy. Most doctors acknowledge this.

      Be careful, though, and be sure you tell your doctor you’re using it. It interacts with other meds quite often , and can play havoc with them, reducing their effectiveness or causing some pretty serious side effects. Also be very careful which brand you use… some of them don’t actually contain the active ingredient at all.

    • bella starkey says:

      01:58pm | 12/07/11

      I think doctors are more concerned that people with psychological illnesses will self prescribe with things like St Johns Wort which can be very dangerous.

      I’d keep in mind that most large supplement producers are actually owned by the big drug companies.

    • Sara Somewhere says:

      03:33pm | 12/07/11

      Very true Shane*. Do you know what they call a woman who is on the Pill and St John’s Wort? Pregnant.

    • Ruby says:

      01:43pm | 12/07/11

      By way of follow up to this article, perhaps investigate how many colonic irrigations have resulted in ruptured bowels.  Going for a trendy ‘celeb endorsed’ colonic and ending up with a colostomy (or dead) doesn’t sound very attractive to me (let alone having to stick a tube up your bum for no good reason).

    • lucy mann says:

      02:06pm | 12/07/11

      if it’s vaginal blowing that gets you off, then that’s no placebo effect. bring on the medicare subsidies!

    • The righteous one says:

      02:18pm | 12/07/11

      I used to go to a doctor once upon a time whom I nickednamed Jesus, because it would be a miracle if he actually laid his hands on you.

    • apocoretharian says:

      04:11pm | 12/07/11

      so tic tac suppositories are more mind over matter?

    • Fuel for thought says:

      04:28pm | 12/07/11

      reiki… magnetic fields, hemoglobin, ferral content, polarisation and tree huggers???

    • taught you are says:

      04:32pm | 12/07/11

      reiki for shinto gardens no. 2?

    • Anthony G says:

      05:24pm | 12/07/11

      I use to go to a homeopath in Victoria and was an absolute genius I sent many people to him who had been around the roundabout with conventional medicine and he fixed all of them. he even fixed my father in law who was booked in to have a colostomy bag the following week but when he got opened up they were amazed to see his bowel intact and no longer needing it done I myself went around the specialist roundabout several times costing thousands with cameras being put in every crevice in my body with no success. This guy had me on the road to success feeling allot better after my first visit. He is called Meridian therapy and i hadn’t been to a GP for 10 years until i did my knee last year

    • Lesley Laurel says:

      06:00pm | 12/07/11

      I like alternative medecines and herbal remedies.
      I once went to see a Psychopath as an alternative medecine.
      It worked wonders.Now I vote Labor and I feel great.

    • Kate says:

      06:25pm | 12/07/11

      I worry when products are sold in vitamin shops without any proper consultation between sales assistants and the patients.
      For example, St John’s Wort can work very well for mild depression, but it’s not supposed to be taken in conjunction with other anti-depressants or the Pill. If nobody actually points this out to the person taking it, there could be some pretty awful consequences.
      I’m sure these things work for some people, but I’ve been skeptical of ‘alternative’ medicine since my mum dragged me to one of these clinics because I was having stomach problems. I got diagnosed with food intolerances and avoided gluten and dairy for a very painful year before discovering I was not intolerant to anything, I was just anxious and getting sick as a result. One year eating the most blah foods imaginable and taking all these vitamin supplements for absolutely no reason!

    • Massage Therapist says:

      10:35pm | 12/07/11

      So, I work in what some people would call CAM. Aside from relaxational, sports and physiotherapeutic massage, I also offer things like reflexology and reiki, because there’s a demand for it. Bottom line? It’s a complete crock. Reflexology is a nice footrub, nothing more or less. Reiki is a waste of time. But the others? They have real benefits - if the benefit you have in mind is… well, a massage.

      Having clients come with hopes of a cure for this, that and the other makes me realise all the more than some people are far too easily led.

    • braunman says:

      10:18am | 13/07/11

      Interesting story. At least in your case they’re going to someone who actually knows what they’re talking about regarding the human body. Suppose that’s one way of getting CAM believers to see a trained medial specialist! How do you carry out your version of reflexology/reiki? Do you pretend to do the CAM techniquies while performing the actual physiotherepy treatment?

    • Tc says:

      02:45am | 13/07/11

      I thought I would add my own story.  6 months ago I was diagnosed with MS.  I googled and to put it simply there were a hell of a lot of results.  A number were all CAM and it struck me how hard it was to find what was real and what were empty promises.  So what did I do?
      I saw my neurologist who believed/hoped I wasn’t in the serious category based on my symptoms, but he did suggest medication.  “You can start injecting now and in twenty years you’ll be a 100% and buy me a beer for being a great doctor, or you don’t and you’ll be still be 100% in twenty years and you’ll be one of the fortunate people with MS”.  The fact is MS is a lottery that even the proven medications can’t fully control.  I decided to inject weekly as the chances were better.
      Yet what I found upsetting is how there are certain “cures” on the net from people whose MS no long effects them (probably the 20% with benign MS).  Making a profit from scared people who fear they won’t be able walk their daughter down the aisle, or kick the footy with their kids,  some cures that expect the sufferer to give up the conventional therapy, the only therapy that has shown to have an impact statistically.
      Having said that I have looked at what could be considered CAMS.
      There is inconclusive evidence that a low sat diet can hold back MS…..I went for it because if it doesn’t work then at least I will be healthier.
      Meditation is thought to hold MS back ..... no scientific proof, but the little bits I’ve done have made me feel calmer and relaxed so not a bad side effect.
      There are a couple of others, but all at the very least have been proven to be good for health if not able to stop MS so its all win win. 

      The point I am trying to make is that MS is a good example of the limitations of medicine and the despicable actions of many in the CAM community to prey on these limitations, to prey on the ignorant and the scared.

 

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