Clad in his spectacular Bishop’s regalia, Greek Orthodox Bishop Ezekiel throws a cross in the water at the annual “Thefeonia” at Station Pier. This Greek “Festival of the Waters” is held at Port Melbourne in early January every year, where I’ve represented Federal Labor to the sometimes 5 to 6 thousand members of the Greek Australian community. 

Christians and Muslims joined ranks in a mass protest under the watchful eyes of riot police in Cairo. Photo: AFP

Usually I’m there with an array of local State and Federal Greek Australian politicians, but, in my own mind, my presence is emblematic of the natural tolerance and pluralism of modern Australia.  All the politicians release doves and make brief speeches. 

At the “Thefeonia” this year it seemed appropriate that I briefly expressed the nation’s solidarity with another ancient Christian community, Australia’s Copts, who are approximately 80,000 strong across Australia four of whose churches, in Australia were amongst the sixty four listed worldwide as targets by an Al Qaeda website.

Many of the Greek Orthodox people present expressed their quiet thanks that I had raised this matter. One woman told me that a Coptic family in Melbourne had seven members of their family killed when the Saints Church in East Alexandria, Egypt, was attacked at Midnight Mass on the 31st December, killing 22 innocent men women and children and seriously wounding 98 people.

The attack came after weeks of escalating violence against the Copts in Egypt. The Copt represent 10 per cent of the 80 million people in Egypt, they are the largest Christian community remaining in the Middle East. They are a link to ancient Egypt, as their Coptic language is the last remnant of the language of the hieroglyphs, and their culture and traditions pre-date Islam.

Like a tottering Pharaoh, no amount of Grecian 2000 can hide the fact that an authoritarian like Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak is in his mid 80s.  A blatantly rigged parliamentary election, together with the disintegration of internal order, suggests that Hosni Mubarak’s plan to install his son Gamal, laughably known as ‘Gary’, will not happen.

Egypt’s feared security chief, Omar Solmain, may not carry out his Dear Leader’s wishes, preferring himself. The sudden demise of the Tunisian dictator, Ben Ali, coupled together with the breakdown of order in Cairo, and Hosni’s chronological imperative means that the strategically vital regime in Egypt is at risk. So much of Middle East stability is built on the regime in Cairo. Foreign assistance won’t help. 

Actually, in the distorted perception of the Middle East, the 3 billion dollars that goes to Israel is foremost in most Western minds (Israel could easily, and should do, without this United States subsidy. Israel’s GDP in 2009 was $195.3 Billion and provided that they can access and buy the top flight military technology, they would benefit both themselves and the United States by seeking this independence). 

Problematically, Congress already provides a matching annual grant and lifeline from the United States to Egypt of 2.77 billion dollars per annum. Without this US subsidy, bread prices would skyrocket and the Mubarak regime would collapse.

Surprisingly, despite the dramatic attacks on the Coptic Christians in Egypt, and its immediate effects in Australia with the Jihadist listing of local churches, none of our Jerusalem-based reporters ventured to Alexandria or Egypt.  This news lapse wasn’t just an Australian phenomena. Jeffrey Goldberg writing in the Atlantic Monthly, noted what he thought was ”the lackadaisical coverage of the most important story coming out of the Middle East now.”

In the attack on Egypt’s big Christian minority, Goldberg was right to see the wider murderous anti-Christian campaign in Egypt and Iraq, indeed throughout the Middle East.  In Iraq a couple of months prior to the Islamist attack in Alexandria,  Al Qaeda boasted of its slaughter in a Baghdad church where Jihadists murdered 58 men, women and children and a number of priests. 

Christians are under siege from Islamist in the Palestinian territories, but have bought themselves a temporary truce in Lebanon where the disgraced and disgraceful Christian warlord General Aoun is in alliance with Iran’s-Lebanese franchise -Hezbollah. Only in Israel has the number of Christians increased from 34,000 in 1948 to 151,700 ( according to the Israeli Centre Bureau of Statistics Report of 2010). 

Mubarak’s maladroit reaction to Pope Benedict’s plea that Governments do more to protect religious minorities was to withdraw the Egyptian Ambassador to the Vatican.  Pope Benedict insisted “Words are not enough in confronting religious intolerance, there must be a concrete and constant effort by the world’s nations”. US President Obama and French President Sarkozy also specifically denounced the anti-Christian violence. There were questions about whether Australia had spoken out loudly enough.

However, it was pathetic to see the excuses of Mubarak’s regime.

Waheed Ra’fat, one of the managing editors of the Al-Watani Al-Yom publication, which belongs to President Hosni Mubarak’s ruling National Party, wrote this week:

Mossad is the accused because it stands to benefit most from distracting Egypt’s attention from what is going to happen in South Sudan on January 9. The Mossad has a strategy of instigating fitna [civil war, disagreement and division within Islam].

Coptic Christians in Australia also pointed out that Al-Ashram, another Egyptian newspaper that serves as an organ for Mubarak’s regime, went so far as to state “that Mossad had succeeded in infiltrating Al-Qaeda and was using Muslim terrorists to launch deadly attacks”.

This reaction contrasts sharply with moderate Muslims in Egypt who stood united with the Copts at Coptic Christmas Eve mass services.

Things are obviously a little wacko in Egypt, where recently the Governor of Sinai said Egyptian officials believed that a fatal shark attack in one of their resorts could have been a “plot” by the Mossad.  Oh, I forgot - the Islamists believe that even the birds of the air are part of a “Zionist plot”. Saudi officials recently arrested a vulture who was part of a Haifa University bird tracking experiment.

Peter Day in the Australian Spectator noted Egypt’s fate is on the line.

Hani Shukrallah, an independent journalist and former editor-in-chief of Al-Ahram, writes in the paper that an Egypt free of its ancient Christian Coptic minority is for the first time not beyond his imagining. He hopes to be dead before that: ‘This will be an Egypt which I do not recognise and to which I have no desire to belong’.

Yet sadly we face something wider even then the fate of Egypt - for this is another aspect of Al Qaeda Jihadist war- the systematic attempt to drive Christianity out of the Middle East.  This systematic attack on Middle East Christians is but a part of the Salafist war waged by them. It is fought by their many satellites and franchises from the Algerian Salafist front of the Combat and Call, to Jemah Islamiya in Malaysia and Indonesia.

But it is Al Qaeda’s virtual warriors, their autonomous avatars in the West who they program via the internet which occupies 90 per cent of the time of western security agencies, such as MI5. 

It is these home-grown Jihadists that we have to fear the most. Fortunately for Australia our security agencies have so far foiled all attempts of terror attacks on mainland Australia. Even if all Jewish and Coptic sites in Australia have to remain highly guarded, it may be necessary so Australia continues to avoid mass causality attacks.

71 comments

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    • Zaf says:

      11:05am | 20/01/11

      I read it twice but still couldn’t figure out what this article was about.  tldr

    • Elphaba says:

      02:26pm | 20/01/11

      @Zaf, I thought it was just me…

    • im says:

      03:12pm | 20/01/11

      try reading it again i mean the headline should tell it all, Its about murder and blind followings of religion to the detriment of mankind.

    • Gregg says:

      04:18pm | 20/01/11

      Exactly im though one wonders whether we’ll ever have a solution to controlling the mayhem or will it just deteriorate as human pressures grow with increasing populations and the many less priviliged eye off what the more priviliged have, it being continuosly flagged to them by our modern media.
      It’s no small wonder that the militant extremists can recruit the dissatisfied into criminal/terrorist cells and that religion is being used as merely a vehicle to assuage those recruits with any doubt.

    • papachango says:

      05:27pm | 20/01/11

      there’s some truthful points in there, but the article is a bit incoherent, and rambles without much structure.

    • Robert Smissen, rural SA, God's own country says:

      09:03pm | 20/01/11

      Easy, in the middle ages “Christians” (Crusaders) travelled to the middle east & slaughtered Mulims in their thousands, now Muslims are returning the favour, easy.

    • Levi says:

      03:53am | 21/01/11

      @ Robert Smissen….Yeh mate, and 500 years before that the Prophet Muhammad preached his religion of hate and terror to the Arab tribes, who then proceeded to conquer Asia minor, Persia, North Africa, Spain, large parts of central asia, Sicily, the Balearic islands, Southern Italy, Armenia, and many more. Many of those regions had substantial or majority Christian populations who were subsequently exterminated or forcibly converted to Islam. Yeh mate, the Christians really started the war. Ignorant fools like you make me sick. Put down the sensationalist propaganda about the crusades that you read that crap from and read a real history book. Pfff

    • GingerKitty says:

      03:02pm | 21/01/11

      @ Levi

      You poor, confused person.

      Religion of hate and terror? Please pick up the QURAN before making comments such as those. Or if you dont want to do that, have a look at this website http://imamkhattab.org/?q=node/3
      After you have gained an understand of what Islam is, then make comments such as the one you posted.

      One of the 5 pillars of Islam is Zakat, meaning charity. Every year, it is part of a Musilm’s duty to give 2.5% of their wealth to the needy, how is that hate and terror? Remember, that is part of the 5 pillars, the fundamentals which make up Islam.

    • Robert Smissen, rural SA, God's own country says:

      10:38pm | 21/01/11

      Levi old chum I suggest you check you facts by doing a little more reading to round out your education. When the prophet sent his people out to spread religion, he told them to be harsh with pagans who didn’t resile from worshiping idols but to accept people of the book, in otherwords the Jews & Christians, he didn’t send his missionaries into Europe because he recognised their worshipping God. However the Roman Catholic Church were the ones who send “crusaders” into the middle east to kill Jews Muslims & quite a few Christians as well.

    • Levi says:

      10:37am | 25/01/11

      Righto GingerKitty, Christianity has the same thing called a tithe, although obviously you know so much about Islam i assume you knew that about Christianity, but failed to mention it in order to strengthen your own lacklustre argument. A “pillar” consisting of an act of charity does not even come close to balancing “striking at the neck of the infidel” (Godless, western, evil anglo-saxon types like me, oh we are so evil). Contrast that with a statement like “beating your swords into ploughshares’ and then we can talk. For all the evils Christians (or westerners, of Franks as we were once called by the Saracens) have committed, we have had around 900 years to evolve to the point that we are at now. Unfortunately Islam is a medieval religion, with medieval hatreds and medieval practices, it has no reasonable place among civilised people.

      Robert Smissen, I think you need to pick up a history book yourself, or don’t you get them in rural SA? Mohammed didn’t send missionaries into Europe? Tariq ibn Zayid at the head of 30,000 muslim soldiers crossing from North Africa to Spain? I would consider them missionaries in their own right, and they obviously had a fairly big problem with Christians, even if they were people of the book. Crap on about them being tolerant to conquered peoples, all conquered non-muslims were called dhimmi and had to pay a tax to retain their faith, which naturally necessitated conversion for poorer people. Interfaith marriages between Christians and muslims REQUIRE that the children are raised as muslims, Yep sounds real tolerant. What about Sultan Mehmeds army that conquered Constantinople, the heart of Christianity in the east? Or Sultan Suleyman who laid seige to Vienna in the 16th century? I can guarantee you Robert my understanding of this period of history is much more in depth than yours, and the extent of Muslim violence and aggression has been much greater over the past 1400 years than Christians could ever dream of achieving.

      You carry on about the crusades, but Muslim incursions into Europe were on a much grander and longer lasting scale. The Christian crusades lasted 400 years at the very most, the last 200 years of which consisted of abortive and ineffective excursions, mainly for wealthy kings and dukes to try to gain favor with the pope. The Christian crusades stopped being effective after the time of Richard the Lionheart, and even then were doomed to failure.

      The muslims on the other hand consquered Christian spain and stayed for over 700 years, until the were finally given the boot in 1492 at the fall of Granada. You take isolated examples of violence and war-making by Christians and apply it to them as a whole, yet you take isolated examples of kindness and generosity by some muslims and use that to justify their aggressive, autocratic tendencies.

      Double standards won’t get you anywhere in this world, you may convince some people that you are correct or well-educated, but people much smarter than yourselves see through your crap.

      I for one am not affiliated with any religion, although I do know which side of the cultural sphere i would rather be on, the prosperous, creative, and tolerant christian ‘western’ sphere. Not the intolerant, backward-looking, and just plain sneaky muslim world.

    • hot tub political machine says:

      11:06am | 20/01/11

      Peter knew it - identify yourself as a follower of Jesus Christ and you have a target painted on you. Being killed for being a Christian has been fashionable for over 2000 years now. Such is life, we can’t always be safe.

    • Stephy says:

      01:41pm | 20/01/11

      True. Very true.

    • Rosie says:

      12:11pm | 20/01/11

      It is the mindless cleansing through murder and terrorism to drive Christianity out of the Middle East with the Al Qaeda Jihadist war that has become a political problem. In their eyes it should purely be an Islamic society and because the West is associated with “Christianity” it becomes a soft target and we therefore become involved. It is up to our leaders to deal with it for the betterment of their country and its citizens.

      It is extremely sad because historically “Christians” can have the 1st claim to one of the most beautiful parts of the Middle East because without them we would be years and years behind.

    • James says:

      12:31pm | 20/01/11

      Yes it is terrible and something the Middle East needs like a hole in the head.

    • Richard says:

      12:40pm | 20/01/11

      Wow, there is something wrong with the political commentariat in Australia when an inflammatory piece of anti-Israeli/anti-Semitic rhetoric by a Greens Councillor from Marrickville can garner hundreds of comments (over half of them disgustingly discriminatory against our Israeli allies), yet here we are given a powerfully evocative piece on the heart-rending plight of the beautiful Coptic Christian community in Egypt, yet only a handful of commenters would condescend to reply to it (half of them in a derogative manner at that).

      My sadness at the Midnight Mass Massacre in Alexandria was tempered only by strange bewilderment at the fact that no-one else seemed to care about it. Copts are people too, just because they happen to follow (an archaic and gnostic form of) Christianity doesn’t mean they don’t deserve sympathy and support in this time of besiegement.

      Left-wingers are wrong to think that Israel and Christianity are enemies, to think that violent Islamic extremism is justified under any circumstances. Such commenters sometimes make me feel ashamed to be alive in the year 2011.

    • hot tub political machine says:

      12:51pm | 20/01/11

      I’m curious as to which comments you found derogative Richard.

    • James1 says:

      01:12pm | 20/01/11

      Israel is not an ally of Australia.  It is a friend of Australia, sure.  But it is not an ally.

    • Jim says:

      01:24pm | 20/01/11

      “powerfully evocative”? The only thing it stirred in me was a headache trying to follow it.

      If someone like Bronwyn Bishop wrote this the ALP crowd would be howling and pointing fingers, wouldn’t they.

    • papachango says:

      01:24pm | 20/01/11

      Its true that this is one minority group that the lefties seem to care not a jot about. You could argue that they’re a long way from Australia, but then why do they care so much for the plight of the Palestinans?

      where is this greens councillor atricle you mention?

    • Gerry Gee says:

      09:33pm | 20/01/11

      “Agree it’s not anti-semitic, but it’s defintiley anti-Israel”

      Actually, it’s both. Israel is a state for the Jewish people and the boycott singles out that state and not a single other one for sanction. This, despite a world full of human rights abusers including numerous examples in the Arab world especially the two Palestinian ones which are corrupt and encourage incitement and violence against Jews. Greens Councillor Fiona Byrne has admitted she’s not au fait with the issues and yet supports a discriminatory policy that contradicts the written down policy of her party.  She’s standing for a state seat in the next NSW elections as the Greens candidate for Marrickville. I trust her as much as I trust the disgusting ignoramuses who supported her comments on the ABC site.

    • James1 says:

      08:37am | 21/01/11

      In that case Gerry, she is also anti-Arab, because the State of Israel includes a sizeable Arab population.  The BDS discriminates against Arab commerce just as much as it does Jewish commerce.

    • GingerKitty says:

      03:07pm | 21/01/11

      Israel is not an ally of anyone. That country is based on extreme violations of HUMAN RIGHTS and being a Zionist should be considered a crime against humanity.
      Islamic extremism is definetly not justified, yet neither is the massacre of thousands of Palestinians.

    • Graham S says:

      12:50pm | 20/01/11

      The sooner the world wakes up to the fact that Islam is complete, total, 100% system of life controlling every single aspect of a Muslims life having religious, legal, political, economic, social, and military components based on the 5 pillars of Islam the better off we’ll all be. In simple terms it is not a religion and in its fullest form is a dangerous, anti Christain, anti western, anti democratic, intolerant, medieval life form. Compare the followers of Islam in Saudi Arabia which is 100% Islam to those agitating for “Muslim rights” in France, Denmark and The UK where Muslim population is growing, the emergance of anti Muslim politicians in The Netherlands, France & Sweden who are a wake up to them and the insideous methods used by Mulims in Australia for segregated swimming pools and other mild forms of getting their way despite the fact they chose to live in a Christian based, democratic, tolerant society such as ours. We are burden with multicultural urgers who seem to forget Australia and most Western societies do not want these people here. If Muslims don’t like it here, there’s a building at the end of the freeway called the Airport. Go there.

    • James1 says:

      01:21pm | 20/01/11

      To be fair, Saudi Arabia is 100% Muslim in the same way that, say, the Holy Roman Empire was 100% Catholic.

      Also, if a person or a group of people hire a swimming pool for private use, what business of yours is it if they use it as they see fit?

    • papachango says:

      01:31pm | 20/01/11

      I agree, but you’re talking about Islamism, which is a political system based on Sharia law, as opposed to Islam which is just a religious faith. The two are often intertwined, but it is possible to have Islam without Islamism. Turkey, Indonesia, and to some extent Malaysia have managed it. That’s because these countries have a secular government like Western ‘christian’ countries.

      You will notice that women are treated much more equally and have many more rights and freedoms in these places compared to Islamic republics like Saudi and Yemen. Trouble is Saudi has all the money and influence, and it practices one of the worst forms of Islamism, and attempts to export it throught the Muslim world and beyond.

      Rome used to do that too before the Reformation.

    • Stephy says:

      01:45pm | 20/01/11

      When was the Roman Empire Catholic? You can’t be referring to Biblical times, they had their own gods then.

    • James1 says:

      02:16pm | 20/01/11

      Not the Roman Empire, Steph.  The Holy Roman Empire - think Charlemagne, rather than ancient Rome.  Its Wikipedia page is reasonably accurate - last time I edited it at least, which admittedly was a couple of months ago.

    • A Bob says:

      02:22pm | 20/01/11

      Stephy, catholicism existed prior to Christianity.

      ‘Catholic’ means ‘universal’. When the Romans took over a region the locals were able to keep all of their religion and culture subject to a few conditions; they couldn’t proselytise or use their culture to defy Roman laws, which were mainly administrative and consisted of raising taxes. The Roman Empire wasn’t about spreading ideology. Rome had their own gods, but they were optional.

      Hence the catholic, or universal nature of the empire. This is why the Jews were such trouble makers, they refused to recognise Roman authority. Christians were even more so, due to the evangelical nature of the religion. It corrupted the empire from within eventually having a Christian emperor. Thus, the catholic Roman Empire became the Roman Catholic Church. Their methods of evangelism (after they persecuted the crap out of everyone) became one of incorporation and the church is very diverse.

    • papachango says:

      02:43pm | 20/01/11

      @James1 - correct about the Holy roman empire, the Inquisition, Crusades and all that, but then we had this thing called the Reformation. The Islamic world BADLY needs one of them to enable it to emerge from the medieval backwater most of it currently is. Worked for us, the Reformation was closely followed by the Enlightment, the Renaissance and the Age of Reason.

      I’ve no objection to any religious or other group hiring a swimming pool or whatever for their own purposes, but the incident the OP is referring to is the government segregating public facilities to pander to the religious sensitivities of a particular group, which I do not agree with.

      Also the council that decided to enforce Muslim dress codes on everyone at a Public Event. It wasn’t the local Muslim community’s fault, they objected as strongly as everyone else; it was an over zealous leftwing PC council.

      A Bob - you need to read up on the history of Christianity a bit more. it caught on thanks to Constantine in the Eastern Roman empire who set it up as the official religion of Constantinople in what became Byzantium. Rome only took it up later, after the Roman empire had fallen. Hence Eastern Othodox chritianity (from which the Copts are derived) pre-dates Roman catholicism

    • A Bob says:

      02:57pm | 20/01/11

      In addition to James, the Roman Catholic Church is the continuation of the Roman Empire, hence the appointment of Charlemagne as ‘emperor’.

      To allow the Empire to end would have stuffed up a prophecy made in Daniel, you know, King Neb’s dream, which would have made life politically difficult at the time. The prophecy has since been ‘reinterpreted’ to suit the needs of the reformation.

    • James1 says:

      03:19pm | 20/01/11

      You misunderstand my point papachango.  I simply meant that in Saudi Arabia, one is a Muslim by definition, as one would have been Catholic by definition in the Holy Roman Empire.  In practice, however, in both places many, many citizens were not actually Catholic/Muslim.

      My reply to your question about the Greens councillor seems to have been swallowed by the internet, but you can find it on the ABC Unleashed website.  The author’s name is Fiona Byrne.  But as I tried to say earlier, there is nothing anti-Semitic about it, or even anti-Israel.  Indeed, the author explicitly recognises the legitimacy of the state of Israel.  She does take issue with its occupation of the West Bank.

      Also just noticed a major internal inconsistency in Graham’s post.  How could a “tolerant society such as ours… not want these people here”?  Is this a case of “we will tolerate you if you become Christian?”

      I am not a Christian.  Should I leave?

    • papachango says:

      03:49pm | 20/01/11

      @James1 yes I noticed that, and it would be pretty intolerant to say ‘we don’t want Muslims here’, when the vast majority of them don’t urge violent jihad and are quite happy to abide by Australian law.

      Buit I’ll give the OP the benefit of the doubt and assume it was a reference to a tolerant society not tolerating the intolerable. i.e. there is no room for religious extremists in a secular, liberal (again, in the classical not US sense) society. I’m not a Christian either BTW

    • papachango says:

      04:10pm | 20/01/11

      James 1 thanks for the pointer. I read the article, and while it’s more measured than some of the anti-israel propaganda you see, it’s definitely extremely biassed - no mention nor condemnation is made of hamas and hezbollah’s acts of terror.

      Agree it’s not anti-semitic, but it’s defintiley anti-Israel, and a can’t see how you’d see otherwise - she has not a good word to say about the entire country, and claiming ‘we’re not anti israel’ is like the old ‘I’m not racist but…’ chestnut. Also there is no recognition at all of israel’s legitimacy as a state.

      She says ‘Council has not expressed an opinion about the future of Israel and whether Palestine should be a separate state.’ Call me a cynic, but I read that as ‘We don’t want Israel to exist but don’t have the courage to say so’

    • TheRealDave says:

      04:14pm | 20/01/11

      A Bob - I am not sure what history book you’ve been reading but Christianity as we know it was a late Empire invention at the behest of Constantine who was desperately trying to keep the crumbling Empire together so he took a religion, re-organised it and brought its leaders together and locked them in a room until they came up with a single story and then press ganged it as the official religion of the Empire. One People, One Empire, One Religion kinda thing…sounds kinda familiar doesn’t it?

      As for the Jews, many were happy to cede control to the Romans. They retained their status quo and privileges under the Empire. Hell, the Romans didn’t even have to fight for it, just promised to put one royal line in power UNDER their Empire.

    • Gregg says:

      04:40pm | 20/01/11

      @ James 1
      If you wish to compare what was with the Holy Roman Empire which you yourself describe as the Catholicism to use a word, within the greater Roman Empire with for instance what is in Saudia Arabia and a few other countries and the trend described by the author, aside from comparing what was then to now, perhaps you ought to look at what the author has revealed about how some feel on where we are going.

      It is no small wonder that a moderate in Egypt would say he hopes he is not alive to see what is developing.

      And btw, re
      ” Also, if a person or a group of people hire a swimming pool for private use, what business of yours is it if they use it as they see fit?  ”
      It was some twenty years ago now that the then Fitzroy Council I believe it was declared Wednesday to be womens only day in the council public baths because of desire from Islamists.
      Nothing in that about a group of people hiring a swimming pool for private use.

      And everybody should have said very plainly a Big No!

      And then we have had some Saudi big wig up on the GC a couple of years back who died of who knows what and whereas under Australian Law an autopsy should have been performed, his body was whisked away so as he could be buried before the sun set the following day.

      A few years before that, there was a body of a Muslim being held in a Mosque and release being refused, a stand off happened with police, not sure how it worked out.

      But many Muslims do have their own livelihoods and who would know what else occurs outside of our laws.

    • A Bob says:

      06:42pm | 20/01/11

      Guys, my first post was explaining to Stephy the real origin of catholicism. The empire was all but disintegrated by the time of Constantine who did reinvent it as the new state religion. That was what I meant by the ‘after they persecuted the crap out of everyone’ phrase.

      However, once the purge was done, the Church needed to establish political credibility across Europe. They forged documents declaring that the Church had the right to appoint the Emperor of Rome,  and put Charlemagne in charge. They declared that this new empire was the continuation of the original Roman Empire to uphold the then accepted interpretation of Daniel.

      As the Church/Empire expanded though it really wasn’t that fussy about who it took in. Hence the adoption of pagan festivals etc. Whatever it took, just so long as the numbers went up. This was all justified under the Roman tradition of Catholicism.

      And I know what was happening elsewhere in the world while all this was happening in Greece, Ethiopia etc that the Roman church didn’t reach.

      Sorry that I don’t have specific dates for all of this stuff but it’s just a blog, not a Ph.D. theseis and all my books are in storage. There is more to life than Wikipedia.

    • papachango says:

      08:52pm | 20/01/11

      A Bob - I used to hate having to learn dates in History class, but they’re sometimes kinda important, especially if you make claims like Constantine started Christianity as the state religion, then they put Charlemagne in charge.

      Constantine brought in Christianity in c 313 AD, whereas Charlemagne was made Holy Roman Emperor in 800AD. That’s nearly five hundred years later, so it’s safe to conclude that the two empires had nothing much to do with each other.

    • A Bob says:

      11:14pm | 20/01/11

      papachango: I never said Constantine installed Charlemagne. When Constantine formed the first Roman church around 313AD there was a period of persecution where what was left of the Roman Empire got forcibly converted to a state form of Christianity. Charlemagne was installed by Pope Leo III around 800AD.

      What I said was that the Church at the time (800AD) legitimised their crowning of Charlemagne by cooking up some documents that claimed to give the right to appoint succession to the Papacy during the time of Constantine. I’ve been trying to find the name of these documents but can’t, it’s in one of my books and they are interstate.

      This appointment was made of necessity to survive, Charlemagne was doing a pretty good job of conquering things at the time so the Papacy took the “if you can’t beat ‘em, join ‘em” approach by essentially merging their religious clout with his military power.

      It’s not me claiming that the Holy Roman Empire was a natural continuation of the original Roman Empire, but the claim of the Church in 800AD. It took a few hundred years before the forgery was uncovered.

      I hope this is more clear.

      Anyway, this is tangential to my original answer to Stephy. The Roman Empire was always Catholic, they invented the idea. The Church, at some time after the persecutions stopped, re-embraced the concept to expand.

    • Levi says:

      04:02am | 21/01/11

      James1…you’re a worry bloke. The Holy Roman Empire was never 100% catholic. At one point or another there was always a minority religion. Gothic Arianism, Saxon Paganism, Calvinism, Hugenots, not to mention the little thing we call the ‘reformation’. Islam on the other hand, while it can be classified into many different ‘codes’ or ‘denominations’ has one broadly uniting attribute. Hatred. Unfortunately for all so called ‘moderate’ muslims out there, The Quran teaches nothing but hate and intolerance to those of differing faiths. This whole Christianity v Islam v Judaism v whatever else is moot when you examine what the Quran really says

    • James1 says:

      08:35am | 21/01/11

      I would respond Levi but there seems little point if you are not even going to attempt to understand what I am talking about.

      My point was that the Holy Roman Empire - not the Roman Empire which is completely different and from an earlier historical period, defined all of its citizens as Catholic.  It doesn’t necessarily mean they were all Catholics, let alone practicing ones.  Thus, the point I was making is that it is patently untrue that 100% of Saudis practice Islam.

      Why don’t you go back, read what I have written, try to comprehend it, and then try to contribute something relevant.

    • Kevin says:

      12:51pm | 20/01/11

      Think what you like of him, Mubarak cracked down on the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt ensuring that it wouldn’t be overrun by islamic extremists.  It is because he is regarded as a moderating influence in the region that the West continues to back his regime.

    • James Hunter says:

      01:05pm | 20/01/11

      The way extreme Islamists are attacking Christianity worldwide it could easily come to pass that the Christians may become sick of turning the other cheak and start behaving like the Muslims and extract a few eyes for eyes.

      I am almost at the poinyt of saying bring it on because mad mullahs certainly can not be reasoned with, They behave like animals and take and use our Christian tolerance against us. We will need to recognise our own weakness and refute it.

    • papachango says:

      02:56pm | 20/01/11

      I have to disagree. Lets not turn it into a Christian vs Islam thing.

      We must continue to be tough on Islamic extremism, and support Israel in its self defence.

      But at the same time, we left all that ‘holy war’ crap behind since the crusades, and it would be undoing the whole Reformation and 500 years of Western progress and liberalism to go back to it.

      Insofar as we interact with the islamic world we must encourage them to go through their own Reformation, and that includes supporting moderate and secular government of Muslim countries, as well as those who are brave enough to stand up to the mad mullahs.

    • James1 says:

      03:24pm | 20/01/11

      Agreed papachango.  The worst thing we could do would be to descend to the depths plumbed by the extremists.  If we were to sacrifice the liberal (in the traditional sense, not the American sense), secular basis of our society, then as far as I am concerned the terrorists have won.

      We need to encourage our fellow travellers in the Islamic world to push reform (which is happening in Islamic circles - particularly amongst the educated), rather than proving the extremists’ contention that the West is full of crusaders.

    • papachango says:

      05:35pm | 20/01/11

      James1 - looks liek we agree on the approach, but I’m not as optimisitc as you about Islam reforming itself anytime soon.

      The situation in Tunisia is a positive sign; I’ve been watching the French news a bit which has had a lot of interviews with locals off the street, and they appeared more educated, and make all the right noises about freedom and democracy etc.

      But they have simply overthrown a tyrant, not an Islamic fundamentalist, and they were already reasonably exposed to Western values being closer to Europe. Besides which there is still the risk that fundamentalists will step in to fill the power vacuum.

      In the places where it matters, Saudi, Iran, Palestine etc, there is not the same level of education, or what education there is is full of anti Western and anti Jewish propaganda. Bin Laden was ‘well educated’ after all.

    • Sir Ronald Bradnam says:

      01:10pm | 20/01/11

      the sooner more people realise that there is no such thing as sky fairies wether you call them god, allah, mohammed, buddha. Whatever you chose to call your imaginary friend doesnt matter the better off everybody on this little planet will be. I am sick of the constant my god is better than your god, the only way to get to see my god is if you go through me because I am a bigger believer in sky faries than you are.
      There is more evidence of tooth faries as least when i put a tooth under my pillow there was a $2 coin the next day.

    • James Hunter says:

      04:04pm | 20/01/11

      You are absolutely correct and have hit the nail on the haed. Start by banning all religion s and I would take aim at the extremeists in the muslims and the church of rome. each as crazy as the other .The catholics insistance i=on encouraging breeding in (especially) dirt poor countries where the only way they get fed is if we give them aid.Food aid should be tied to mandatory birth control. But that is another sermon. sorry to get of topic.

    • Mark says:

      06:39pm | 20/01/11

      Always the most boring person in the room without excpetion, I give you the athiests! Happy to live under the freedoms of democracy with many of the guilding principles coming from Christianity, happy to have the hundreds of Christian organisations help the sick and needy, but hey, let’s ban all religion they say! What’s next fellas, ban all those with political views different to your own? How about those that look different? You would have loved Germany in the early 40’s boys, your views fit right in.

    • Sir Ronald Bradnam says:

      06:37am | 21/01/11

      Ah mark spoken like the true fanatic, democracy and christianity have nothing in common. The christian organisation dont have the monopoly on doing good in the community but there is plenty of non christian orgs that do an equal amount of community work for the needy and less fortunate, I personally spend one day a week working in or for the community so you dont have to be a christian to do that. Also pleased you brought up about the nazis, there is plenty of documented evidence of nazis within the catholic church and not to much is said about the help that was recieved after the war with the assistance in helping nazis relocate to south america with italian and vatican travel docs. My veiws are fine mate and i am comfortable with myself and dont have the illusion that once I kick off this mortal coil there will be a supernatural dictator that i will have to answer and account to and then be directed to two doors on going up and one going down. Think about it mate it doesnt really make sense to intelligent people.

    • Chris L says:

      08:42am | 21/01/11

      Bans seldom work, I don’t understand why people even today talk about banning things as if it will work. The alcohol prohibition, the “war on drugs”, various attempts through history to ban one religion or another and religion’s own attempts to ban such things as prostitution and pornography. Banning religion won’t work and won’t solve anything. Education and a secular government will.

      PS Mark, democracy and the rule of law are both concepts that predate christianity.

    • Mark says:

      11:50am | 21/01/11

      Another trait of the athiest, unable to see their own hypocricy. Ban religion they say, but don’t say I am anything but open minded! Again, what’s next, ban any political thought other than what you believe? you are right, Nazi Germany wasn’t the right analogy, maybe North Korea is where you belong.

    • Chris L says:

      03:29pm | 21/01/11

      Mark, North Korea is a theocracy that worships Kim Jong Il. Definately nothing atheistic about that place.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      01:15pm | 20/01/11

      Actually, the biggest killers of Christians in history have been other Christians. The Albigensian Crusade, the Spanish Inquisition and the Thirty Years War all examples that the Church hated heretics only slightly less than they hated the Muslim infidel.

    • Chris L says:

      10:55pm | 20/01/11

      Add to that England during the reigns of Henry VIII, Bloody Mary and the “Virgin” Queen. Another example would be Ireland not so many decades ago.

      Much like how the biggest targets of muslim extremism seem to be other muslims.

      All this over differing interpretations of their various beliefs. I’m waiting for a violent break-away sect of scientologists to start their own brand of litigious slaughter.

    • Greg says:

      01:20pm | 20/01/11

      The tragedy for all of us is that while Islam is acknowledged to be a faith of peace and compassion, the peaceful and compassionate majority of Muslims appear to have no voice. Or else, it is drowned by the increasingly frenetic drumbeat of the Jihadists and their shrill spokesmen. Islam needs leaders who can speak aloud for the majority of muslims and who can fight the contest of ideas within islam which the Jihadists appear, by default, to be winning. Nobody can argue that either the Christian or Jewish faiths have resolved their own contests of ideas, of course, but the majority of their leaders explicitly renounce violence and condemn it when it happens. Of course, any religious faith is to some extent a man-made construct and therefore at the mercy of human flaws and failings, which is why the separation of Church and Faith is so important, as the Christian theocracies of the Middle Ages, Renaissance and Reformation eras demonstrated.

    • hot tub political machine says:

      01:43pm | 20/01/11

      I reckon that’s a problem for the world and not just Islam. How the hell do we make reasonable people get more airtime than extremists?

      Perhaps we could convince the boring spokespeople for anything to be interviewed with a backdrop of attractive naked people taking drugs and gambling.

    • Marilyn Shepherd says:

      01:52pm | 20/01/11

      What complete and utter tosh.  The christians of Palestine are not under threat and the christian groups in Lebanon run the place and they did happen to help Israel murder tens of thousands of Palestinians.

      The few christians left in Israel though are certainly under threat and moron Danby, there are many Iraqi and Iranian christians in the refugee prisons you now seem happy to support because it keeps the rednecks happy.

      Now let’s look at the nonsense about aid to Israel with 5 million jews getting $3 billion and 80 million Egpytians getting $2.7 billion.

      Honestly you are such an ignorant shill Michael.

    • stephen says:

      02:55pm | 20/01/11

      ...yeah but the gyppos are getting it for their bread.

      I’m gonna remember all these names on this post and the thousand others too scared to say something, the next time our war against the Taliban and Bin-Laden gets a speaking about, cause it’s these Islamo-fascists that’s the culprit. We’re fighting these people cause they’ll be after the Christians in Turkey next, then the moderates in North Africa, then Iran will get their fingers in the pie, then it’ll be on.

    • annie j says:

      03:20pm | 20/01/11

      marilyn what about the christians in Iraq their number has dropped 89% approx since the iraq war 2. they have 3 options to leave the country convert to Islam or be killed. another crime that the good old USA is liable for partial blame.

    • Labor Ruined NSW says:

      04:11pm | 20/01/11

      Ignorant shill hey. Sounds a bit like the pot calling the kettle black, Marilyn. By the way, are you denying that the vast majority of Iraqi’s and Iraninans comming here and being detained are Muslims?

      Maybe you would like to cast your hollier than though eye over the recent rape crimes commited in Melbourne and Adelaide by your beloved “refugees”.

      I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again: you are a disgrace. Why don’t you go somewhere like Indonesia and actually help out in one of the refugee camps instead of calling us all rednecks.

    • Gerry Gee says:

      04:26pm | 20/01/11

      Marilyn, I suppose in your case ignorance is bliss but in both the West Bank under the Palestine Authority and Gaza under Hamas Christians are leaving at an alarming rate. Many are finding refuge in Israel. The Christian population of Lebanon has been in decline for years. In Bethlehem there was once a plurality of Christians, now they are a dwindling minority. Incidentally, Bethlehem is a sister city to Marrickville which cynically decided to boycott Israel while Palestinian terrorists were firing missiles into Israeli homes, synagogues, schools and kindergartens. It’s a mad, mad world.

    • Robert Smissen, rural SA, God's own country says:

      12:07pm | 21/01/11

      Marilin I always like reading your post, they absolutely guss with the milk of human kindness. To make it easier for you, who do you like, can you name three? ? ?

    • MIchael says:

      03:25pm | 20/01/11

      I don’t understand in every Islamic country in the world the non Muslim minorities are killed, intimidated   under threat or treated as second class citizens this includes the Christians.
      It is interesting why there has never been a ‘‘Christian’ Palestinian suicide bomber and Palestinian Christians are under threat and like in Muslim controlled Bethlehem where the christian population has dwindled. Even Lebanon used to be a predominately christian country now they are also the intimidated minority bit hard to blame the Israelis for this .
      Even in today’s OZ newspaper the headline is ‘‘Gillard should step down and ‘‘let the Muslims take over’’ and this is what so many other Muslims who have threatened the west that it is inevitable that the Muslims will take over..
      This Preacher has articulated what many in the west fear.The   Australian Muslim preacher goes on to say he hates Australians.
      No doubt there will be the usual mantra from the Muslim community and their left wing allies that this preacher is a Minority { just like the Minority 20 Muslims that declared Islamic Jihad on the West on 9/11, and just like all the other minority extremists Muslims that live amongst us in the west planning mass suicide.. ] No doubt it is Israels fault that these Muslims who live in Europe and USA that are planning attacks and the ongoing Islamic violence in Chechnya, Kashmir, Philippines, Thailand, Iraq, Lebanon, Afghanistan, Somalia, Sudan and the Islamist Pirates is because of the poor Palestinians and those pesky Zionists.
      The Christians just like the Jews are under attack from these Minority’’ Muslims and have much more in common with the Jews.

      There are 57 Islamic Countries worldwide and The Hamas Palestinian leadership call for a ‘’ Islamic state of Palestine’ under their charter yet another Islamic country and they begrudge one tiny Jewish country one third the size of Tasmania.. go figure

      By the way The Egyptians get approx $3 billion dollars per year and the Jordanians $1 Billion per year from America since signing their peace treaties with Israel.
      Imagine how much more money the Palestinians would get from the Americans if they elected a leadership that represents all factions, stopped their incitement of hatred and- antisemitism against Jews, ceased their rockets and suicide attacks, recognized Israel as per the UN Declaration as Jewish nation , stopped their intransigence and negotiated a similar peace treaty.

      BTW Great article Mr Danby { and I am not a Labour supporter]

    • Tim the Toolman says:

      03:41pm | 20/01/11

      My invisible friend is the only real one!  Bang!

      Nothing new here, same thing that’s been happening since religion was invented.

    • papachango says:

      05:38pm | 20/01/11

      Yes but religion (as in the belief in one or more invisible friends) has been a part of every single human civilisation since the Neolithic age. It’s probably been around ever since we evolved to get the mental capacity to wonder what happens after death.

      While there are some athiests, and agnostics like myself, it’s part of our DNA. Attempts to ban it have been disastrous.

    • Ben Derusai says:

      04:14pm | 20/01/11

      Like the many Islamists she aligns herself with, Marilyn Shepherd doesn’t let any facts get in the way of a good hatred. Furthermore , her foul mouth is well known in media circles and only emphasises the sheer fantasy that passes for thought process in her head. I thought Danby’s article was factual, lucidly written and a great example of what makes Australia such a great country.

    • stephen says:

      07:06pm | 20/01/11

      Quite.
      And does he look like that now ?
      He’d make a terrific sports commentator.

    • Grumpy says:

      09:05am | 21/01/11

      Why cant muslims, xtians, and jews all just get along and hate the scientologists together?

    • GingerKitty says:

      03:19pm | 21/01/11

      Grumpy…in a pefect world they would.

      Alot of people fail to realise that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are Abrahamic religions. All three religions are the branches of the SAME tree.

      I think the problem with the Muslim community is largely the lack of education. The less educated you are, the easier it is to be brainwashed by mad mullahs, who will convince a young man to become a suicide bomber, however they themselves will never do such a thing.
      Furthermore, modern Muslims do not practice their religion correctly. A huge part of Islam is to educate yourself, both in the worldy and spiritual sense, however due to the economic circumstances under which the majority of Muslims are born, this sadly doesnt happen.

    • Michael says:

      10:24am | 22/01/11

      When you have racists and bigots like Marilyn Shepperd and extremist political parties like the Greens supporting and cheer leading the Muslim community what can we expect.
      If only Muslims would learn to integrate ,leave their hatred ,intolerance and Middle east politics behind where they came from.

    • youdy beaudy says:

      12:38pm | 22/01/11

      Why can’t we all practice peace. Now, peace in our time would be good for a change wouldn’t it?. Anyone out there for peace!!!??.

 

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