China exports censorship to an Australian film festival

ea says:

08:28am | 03/08/09

Hope the Festival sticks with it and is a great success.

Shane From Melbourne says:

09:22am | 03/08/09

If the Australian government had any they would buy the rights of the documentary and hold public screenings as an act of defiance towards Chinese censorship. As it is they will remain quiet and hope it all goes away like the Stern Hu case.

Henrietta from Melbourne says:

09:51am | 03/08/09

This is so outrageous!

How on earth the Australian government is just sitting back and watching this happen is beyond me. The Melbourne Film Festival ought to stick to their guns. I hope Australians don’t fall for this crap

John F says:

10:20am | 03/08/09

The Chinese nationals involved are doing more damage to their own country’s reputation that they are to a humble film festival.

iansand says:

11:04am | 03/08/09

The next superpower flexing its muscles.  They will be a lot less benign than the present one.

James says:

11:12am | 03/08/09

A year on from the Beijing Olympics, with which China tried to appear as if it cared about what the outside world thought of it, the worlds opinion of China is now slipping southwards once again.  Perhaps 8 isn’t such a lucky number after all.

A minister from the Chinese Government was interviewed on the ABC over the weekend.  He spoke about how the Australian Government should respect the sovereignty of China & their laws and not attempt to interfere with the Stern Hu case.

In the same interview he said that Australia should not allow Rebiya Kadeer entry into Australia and should not allow for the documentary on Uighur people to be shown in Australia. 

Australian law allows for the showing of documentaries such as this, whether or not you agree with them, it would also allow for the showing of a documentary from the Chinese Government showing their side of the story.  Australian law also allows for Australian Immigration to decide who is allowed a Visa, regardless of whether other countries agree.  To suggest that Australia should treat foreigners and films differently because of the wishes of the Chinese Govt. is an attack on Australian sovereignty, laws & freedom of speech.

zhòu mà  - w?i shàn (Damn hypocrites?)

pete says:

11:51am | 03/08/09

“The next superpower flexing its muscles.  They will be a lot less benign than the present one. “

You think they are benign?  locking people up without a trial. Kidnapping them and placing them where they know torture occurs.  Oh sorry, stopping people from breathing by means of water is’nt torture, I forgot.

The only difference I can see in behaviour is that one is overt and the other covert

G says:

12:15pm | 03/08/09

Well does this suprise anyone…

Considering we have CensorTron4000 MP Stephen Conroy attempting to bring in a censorship regime similar to China’s and pinko commie Prime Minister KRudd at the helm trying to please his chinese overlords.

Seriously these guys need to go.

iansand says:

12:19pm | 03/08/09

pete@10:51 I am afraid not.  Those things you itemise are regular occurrences in China, to its citizens and anyone else who has the misfortune to come into conflict with the Chinese authorities.  If you think the levels of individual freedom and oppression in the USA and China are comparable within several orders of magnitude you had better hang onto your hat for the next few decades.  You will be in for one heck of a bumpy ride.

Quincy says:

12:20pm | 03/08/09

Censorship exists in Australia too. Look at Kyle.

marley says:

12:27pm | 03/08/09

The current superpower locks up people and “renders” them as well, but under the full gaze of the media because, whatever its faults, the USA genuinely believes in freedom of speech.  How else would we even know about Guantanamo or water boarding?

The PRC does the same or worse to its enemies, but hides it from the view of a very circumscribed media.  It is now attempting to impose the same principles in Australia that it imposes in China - information as a commodity to be managed exclusively by the government, propaganda campaigns to be used as a tool to drown out alternate opinions, cyber-bullying to eliminate dissent.  Should the PRC ever decide to invade another country, I doubt that you would see critical articles in their press or media, or mass demonstrations in their streets, or prominent politicians and artists declaring their opposition in public.  The Party wouldn’t lose office, their courts wouldn’t overturn their military tribunals, and we’d never hear about soldiers torturing prisoners. 

Personally, I find the fact that the Chinese are flexing their muscle in such an obvious way to be quite alarming.

Madison says:

01:18pm | 03/08/09

James: “To suggest that Australia should treat foreigners and films differently because of the wishes of the Chinese Govt. is an attack on Australian sovereignty, laws & freedom of speech.”

Kadeer is no simple foreigner. She is an outlaw to the Chinese. Think of it like an Australian commits treason here and flees to say, Brazil and decides to sell their version of a story loaded with bias. The authorities here would do all they could to cull it, with good reason. As for our mate Stern Hu, he was caught on the wrong side of the law over there and their judicial sovereignty should be respected.

This isn’t a case of hypocrisy as the two instances are not one of the same.

PaulM says:

01:30pm | 03/08/09

Anyone who’s followed the Tibetan situation knows that this sort of bully boy approach is standard operating procedure for the Chinese Communist Party.  Just have a look how they use threats and bullying to try and stop anyone seeing the Dalai Lama.  But still, bringing it onto Australian soil in this way is a new low.  Hopefully it will be well publicised and will get people thinking more about what China actually is, and isn’t!  This story should be front page news across the country, but from what I’ve seen online today, sadly, it isn’t.

IanM says:

02:21pm | 03/08/09

How is it that a Chinese consulate official can can call the film festival and “strongly urge” them not to continue, which is followed by a Chinese based denial of service attack on an Australian website and the mass media says bugger all? This is Chinese foreign interference on a grand scale. They have tightly controlled internet access throughout their country, so the logical assumption is that when a cyber attack occurs that originates from China it is fully state sponsored.

Shama says:

02:22pm | 03/08/09

Madison, we can’t do much about other people’s laws but it’s not hypocritical to be against them.  I don’t think Australia is going to put pressure on anyone just because they screen a film on someone Australia doesn’t like. It can be criticised by its own people - and others.  This freedom China doesn’t afford.  And let’s not forget Mandela was once a “oulaw” and the Dalai Lama remains so.

Human ideas on freedom are universal.  In the past the MFF has screened films that have positive representations of China - they should be free to choose their material instead of it being politicised as the Chinese rep did on the news yesterday.  Just because a country formulates laws that curtail freedoms we take for granted doesn’t make it OK.

Lachlan says:

02:52pm | 03/08/09

Madison, spoken like a true totalitarian. Yes, let’s bring back censorship and ban films that the authorities of another country don’t like. And while we’re at it, let’s censor our own media for stories our authorities don’t want us to know. Then we can build a gigantic firewall around our internet connection to the outside world and stop our own people from finding out about what goes on in their country.

James says:

03:20pm | 03/08/09

Exactly Shama.

Madison.. if you are the same contributor here on each China related article you seem to be wearing some very darkly tinted rose coloured glasses. 

Go &  travel around China & surrounding countries where Chinese, Tibetan refugees and other minority groups in religious & cultural exile live, then compare their experiences with the information and understanding of those that live in metropolitan China.  Then you may understand the disgusting levels of brainwashing and censorship undertaken by the Chinese Government and why we should not allow them to force it upon us.

Given that you don’t believe Kadeer should be allowed into Australia, do you feel the same about the Dalai Lama?

Chris says:

03:40pm | 03/08/09

Lachlan, Don’t worry Kevin’s working on it as we speak. Besides the ALP uses similar sorts of bullying tactics against it’s opponents and it is that ideological and philosophical similarity between the present day ALP and the Chinese government that concerns me the most.

Madison says:

03:52pm | 03/08/09

James, I never said Kadeer should not be let into our country. I was just pointing out the reasoning behind the advice of Beijing authorities. To me, her innocence is questionable. But to the Chinese, she is guilty as sin and thus their negative reaction towards her endeavors. As for the Dalai Lama? He’s more than welcome here as long as his purpose is not to indoctrinate people. Religion should neither be taught nor preached. It should be discovered by the individual in their own good time. Hmm, a debate on politics and religion? Healthy or otherwise, we’re just asking for trouble now.

James says:

04:22pm | 03/08/09

“...the reasoning behind the advice of Beijing…” 
What advice?

A representative of the Melbourne Consulate General of China TOLD the director of the MIFF to not show the film and to have no association with it.  Telling and suggesting are not one and the same. 
Not following their “advice” resulted in website attacks, bombardment of phone lines and attempts to buy up all tickets to the film.  And lets not forget the other films associated with Chinese people that have been withdrawn for fear of repercussions at home.

It’s a very odd way of giving “advice”  and all too much of a coincidence to suggest that it had nothing to do with China, or that China did not encourage the behaviour.

“...we’re just asking for trouble now.”

Well at least we are allowed to do so.

Shama says:

04:48pm | 03/08/09

Madison, everything in this life is taught or preached.  Nothing arrives on its own to implant itself into your head.  The Dalai Lama is free to preach his way but not coerce people to accept his dogma - of course the Chinese government can deliver a few lessons on coercion. And of course like you the Chinese government would also like us to be quiet, compliant people who never engage in debate, healthy or otherwise.

The MFF is an impartial forum - not a place where someone thought of as “guilty as sin” cannot have a doco on them screening. Its a pity that this government and at least some people in this country are made timid and apologetic by economic compulsions.

Madison says:

07:31pm | 03/08/09

James, your comments are contradictory. And to save you asking another stupid question ‘How?’, I’ll now point it out and save you another pointless rant. You ask “What advice?”, then continue on to say “not following their advice resulted…”

I believe the quote you’re referring to by Moore is “I was urged to withdraw this particular documentary,” No one TOLD anyone to do anything because the jurisdiction here was understood. Which is more than I can say for the you.

So James, stop splitting hairs with me because clearly Moore has been advised and I never mentioned anything about “suggesting” or “telling”. I understand you may be upset that I picked you up on not understanding the concept of hypocrisy but that’s hardly my fault.

Madison says:

07:47pm | 03/08/09

Shama not everything in life must be taught or preached. In fact, there are many things in life I’d personally like to discover for myself. God is one such thing that I’d like to find in my own time without the pollution of religious manuscripts.

Again, let me say I’m simply pointing out the reasoning behind Beijing’s actions. Personally I have no issues with the actual screening of the film and would be quite interested to see what it’s all about. In Moore’s position, with the benefit of hindsight, I wonder if it was worth all the trouble to stick to his guns on this one. I suppose any publicity is good publicity.

Chase Stevens says:

02:59am | 04/08/09

Is it wrong for me to be scared of the chinese government?

James says:

10:22am | 04/08/09

Oh dear. I contradicted myself on purpose and thought I’d made it clear that my use of the word advice was facetious by placing it in quotation marks. 
Anyone that thinks attempting to force someone into a particular action is just a way of giving advice is either a fool or a wannabe dictator.

“..I’m simply pointing out the reasoning behind Beijing’s actions….”
lets pretend it was just a friendly bit of advice, how do you explain their actions?  How can you excuse the website attacks, phone jamming etc.? 

In this case the “advice” was undeniably threatening and the website attacks and phone jamming were the result of non compliance with their “advice”.  Unfortunately they will never be able to tie them to the Chinese government, given their history of a “nothing to see here” attitude.

You might not think that something as simple as a website attack or phone jamming is serious, but it is an attack on our freedom of speech and right to protest.

“...not understanding the concept of hypocrisy…”
Bah, I’m not upset & for the record, I love many aspects of China & have spent quite a bit of time there and in surrounding countries, but despise the way the country is run.

Whether or not it’s hypocrisy is debatable, but in my opinion it is hypocrisy. 
As of yet there is nothing to suggest that our government has attempted to interfere with the judicial sovereignty of China in the Stern Hu case, they are merely looking to ensure that he is allowed basic human rights.

There IS evidence to show that “someone” has attempted to interfere with our rights in Australia .  Therefore you cannot compare the two cases and it is hypocritical of the Chinese government to tell our government not to interfere in China, when “someone” has already interfered with events on Australian soil.

Oh and we are not alone.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/8171791.stm

Sam says:

11:40am | 04/08/09

What Uighur people? You mean Chinese separatists, you mean a terrorist group. In China, there is no “Human Rights”... there is only Chinese Law. Human Rights aren’t above Chinese Law and Chinese Law is for every one inside China. There is no such thing as Uighur, Tibetan, or any other divide and conquer strategy. If you people think democracy is such a great thing, then by all means keep it while you drown in your own individualistic insignificance. China does not recognise your voice or your misguided right to vote. Democracy does not exist inside China, we have consensus and national interest instead. You call it Communism, we call it “One for all and all for one”. We are not the bully who is trying to shove democracy down everyone’s throat. We are not the bully who bullied the American Indians, the Aboriginies, countless victims of colonialism… and we know the only reason you don’t come to China and bully us there is because you don’t think you would succeed. You are the bullies of Human Rights and Democracy. We already have a harmonious society and effective government that actually delivers results. Our trains are quieter, smoother, cheaper and the air conditioning works. We don’t have water restrictions designed to ligitimise a desalination lobby. We don’t have bullying in our schools or our sporting fields or at night spots. We don’t have to spend our taxpayers’ money on wars that were created by our own incompetence. We support a huge population whereas you can’t even deal with your own children of the streets. We are not the country where someone who uncloggs a toilet makes more than a university professor. Clearly you people live in an upside-down world, so please keep it and eat our dust for eternity. China is the triumph of intellect over braun, and we will not bullied into listening to the voices of fools (just because they can vote in their little hick hometown). If you have any brains, you’ll play follow the leader (the real leader who owns the leader you think you should be following).

Hannah says:

11:46am | 04/08/09

As anyone else would say ‘that’s not on’
Screen this documentary in BIFF too

Madison says:

11:57am | 04/08/09

My thoughts exactly Sam. Democracy, especially compulsory voting as is the case here, gives morons with IQs lower than their age a way to steer the country. The negative effects of such can be seen here.

the truth is scary says:

12:48pm | 04/08/09

the fact our govt is attempting to introduce censorship in this country should be of just as much concern. the fact our govt has adopted the same styles of governance seems to be litlle concern in this country. Our govt is a huge sponsor of repression by selling China our minerals and resources endanger the future of our children in the process. We should not be dealing with China nor should we be adopting their style of repression but we are.

Shama says:

01:09pm | 04/08/09

As someone who has lived in China and Australia and is not Australian, I cannot even begin to respond to Sam because its way beyond idiotic on so many levels - though I must admit to permitting myself a laugh re well run trains. The root of the problems of China and other Asian countries (I am Asian) is this sense of false superiority, often moral in tone and vilifying of a western past which by now is history.  The only casualty of such an attitude is truth. Grow up.

James says:

01:58pm | 04/08/09

“...We are not the bully who bullied the American Indians, the Aboriginies, countless victims of colonialism… “

Australia does not deny it’s past, whether it was right or wrong.
The actions of our settlers and past governments are taught in our schools and we are free to make up our own minds about what happened.  One side of the story is not shoved down our throats and those that want to speak out and criticise are allowed to do so without fear of being “silenced”

China has bullied it’s own people, but generally denies doing so.

I don’t agree with any form of censorship, but you can hardly compare the proposed Australian internet censorship to the censorship and state domination of media in China, there is no proposal to censor facts of past or current events in the Australian media.

“...We already have a harmonious society ...”
Provided that the line is towed, you swallow every piece of information from the government as fact and you do not want freedom.

“Our trains are quieter, smoother, cheaper and the air conditioning works…”

Crikey, that just shows the level of ignorance from people in large cities that don’t really know what’s going on in the rest of their country.

I take it you’ve never traveled by train outside metropolitan areas of China?  I take it you’ve never been at a train station in peak times ,such as prior to Chinese New Year, and watched people fighting to get on a train just to be packed in denser than sardines?  Air conditioning doesn’t work everywhere at least it is not a necessity here to filter out the pollution.

“...gives morons with IQs lower than their age a way to steer the country. The negative effects of such can be seen here….”

LOL, there’s some bloody old people on here and in politics if that’s the case.

Madison says:

02:06pm | 04/08/09

CHINA has the false sense of superiority???????? You’ve got to be kidding!

Sam says:

02:13pm | 04/08/09

Shama, why don’t you present your argument, or don’t you have one? You grow up, your post had no substance therefore it is far more idiotic than mine could ever be.

I have lived in China and in Australia and I grew up in the UK and I’ve lived in Lybia, Malta, Greece, Bulgaria and Sweden… and China is the best place to raise children in my opinion. While teaching English in China, I saw how closely nit the children are. They are so beautiful, unlike the wretches with the misfounded sense of superiority in our high schools. The trains in metropolitan cities like Beijing are far better. And the trains that have recently been built, that travel at more than 300km/hr, are better than Qantas business class (and cheaper than a daily zone 1+2), and I don’t have to put up with all binge drinking losers and their noise pollution.

Have a laugh at your own sentence about “problems in China”... what problems? 10% GDP growth? Affirmative action for minority groups? An effective government that cannot be swayed by the opinions of Big Brother and Australian Idol followers?

And what false sense of superiority are you referring to? We are not necessarily stronger than you, but we’re a whole lot richer, count the bills yourself if you wish or maybe just look for government debt or gold reserves statistics. What prevented Australia from a technical recession? Nothing other than last minute additional orders of minerals so Kevin Rudd wouldn’t suffer too much in the polls. The war on terror that the US is waging to safeguard your decadent lifestyle is funded by, you guessed it, Chinese owned Treasury Bills. “Superiority”, that’s not the point we emphasize, that’s your fear talking. We simplly affrirm that we are united and we won’t be bullied by illiterate hypocrites.

And since when does “history” mean we should forget about it? Any analyst will tell you the best way to predict the future is to study the past. If you choose to forget history, all the better for us who use it to reinforce the truth, for there is no truth without an examination of history. And I’m Australian (among other nationalities), it’s just that I think that hippies in Brunswick St should not be allowed to vote until they get a job and have a shower.

Shama says:

02:16pm | 04/08/09

Madison, I hope you live in China, though the ease of your frequent postings suggests othewise.  Frankly I can’t see any reason why you would want to live here when earthly paradise exists elsewhere. 

Yes China is way superior than the rest of us mortals because they have an “ancient culture” and apparently call the shots these days.  If that’s your idea of truthful superiority you can keep it.

Sam says:

02:18pm | 04/08/09

Australia does not deny it’s past, whether it was right or wrong.
The actions of our settlers and past governments are taught in our schools and we are free to make up our own minds about what happened.  One side of the story is not shoved down our throats and those that want to speak out and criticise are allowed to do so without fear of being “silenced”

China has bullied it’s own people, but generally denies doing so.

excuse me James, but I went to school here and we were never taught about the stolen generation or the white australia policy or assimilation or the continued oppression of Aboriginies. And you are NOT free to make up your own mind, it happened, you were wrong, you are guilty still. How can you claim that you have the right to make up your own mind on a matter of historical fact? Delusional. And if what you say is valid, then why shouldn’t China have the right “to make up its own mind” whether to accept or deny your claims? You just killed your own argument, and I haven’t even analysed your second paragraph yet.

Sam says:

02:23pm | 04/08/09

Provided that the line is towed, you swallow every piece of information from the government as fact and you do not want freedom.

No James, we should tolerate dissent and separatist activities and terrorism because of your “Human Rights”? Off-course the line must be towed, every Chinese ows their life to China, just like all the RSL diggers have tried to teach you. You owe the generations that came before you for the great lifestyle you enjoy. You owe your country. You can’t just vote it out with a text message!!!!

We don’t need your definition of freedom. We already have all the freedom a human being deserves. We certainly don’t want our government to give us enough freedom to divorce our parents and leave them in nursing homes to die alone wondering where they went wrong. Keep your foolish notion of freedom to yourself. We’re not interested, we’re too busy making money, money money, and eating seafood while you choke on your meat pie with sauce.

Shama says:

02:26pm | 04/08/09

For the record, I am not Australian. I am Indian and haven’t lived here long. I know my history. I know what colonialism is. I know what it it to be a country that was poor and has now been taken more seriously. I know what it is to live in a country with many minorities that need to be accommodated.  And I still find your post riddled with a mix of rage and superciliousness. Not to speak of disturbing sentiments about Uighurs and then suddenly Brunswick Street hippies.  Only you it would apepar have the right to express yourself freely - the “debris” of society can go home.

I don’t want to waste the Punch’s real estate with long posts that go nowhere.  So I’ll stop here.

Sam says:

02:32pm | 04/08/09

Shama, we will live where ever we want. We love China, and we like Australia too, but since we have a vested interest in Australia’s future success, we can’t allow people like you to ruin it for our children (and your children too for that matter).

Sam says:

02:48pm | 04/08/09

Shama,

The “debris” of society should not be allowed to ruin the country with the same individualistic opinionated nonesense that ruined their own lives and rendered them “debris” in the first place. These people’s lives are better, not because they have a voice, but because someone has the power to ignore their childish whinning. “I think this, I think that… Me me me what about me!” It should be a crime to pollute people’s minds with your own irresponsibility.

And don’t worry about The Punch… I just contributed to their credibility by bothering to contribute to it. (oops, false sense of superiority again!!!)

James says:

02:57pm | 04/08/09

“I went to school here and we were never taught about the stolen generation or the white australia policy or assimilation or the continued oppression of Aboriginies. And you are NOT free to make up your own mind”

Well my mates and I who went to a range of different schools, public and private,  were taught about the above and some have studied it at universities. I’m sorry that you missed out at your school. 

We’ve still got a bit of work to do there obviously.  At least you are free to do your own research if you wish to catch up or challenge your education.  You can read any book and access any website you want in your quest for knowledge.

You are free to travel anywhere in Australia and talk to any one that you want to about past events.  You can talk to Aborigines that were, and to some extent still are,  effected by past and current events. 

You can then make up your own mind about whether or not what the government & textbooks tell us is the truth or not.  If you disagree with it you can shout your opinion as loud as you damn well like without fear of being shot in the back or locked away without charge for life.  You can even take your thoughts and attempt to transfer them into action by running for parliament or council or start your own organisation to give people a voice.

You can even openly criticise the government to no end.

“...We’re not interested, we’re too busy making money, money money, and eating seafood while you choke on your meat pie with sauce….”

Thanks for confirming a previous comment about China’s false sense of superiority.  You can have as much money, eat as much seafood, and have as big a GDP growth as you want, but it will never make up for the MASSIVE inequalities in standards of living and incomes that exist in China.  Sure, there are inequalities here, but the gap between poverty and middle class is no where near as big as in China.  If you already have one child and you happen to break a condom or the pill doesn’t work you can be safe in the knowledge that your 2nd or 3rd child wont become an alien to our country.  If you happen to have beliefs that contradict state sanctioned religions and wish to follow another religion you can do so knowing you will not be kicked out or silenced.

Madison says:

02:58pm | 04/08/09

Sharma, the whole idea of communism is that we are all equal. For you to suggest that China has any sense of superiority(false or otherwise) shows your lack of understanding of some very key concepts.

“I don’t want to waste the Punch’s real estate with long posts that go nowhere.  So I’ll stop here.”

I think you’re just a little out of breath and substance as I’m sure the comment boxes are here to be used.

Shama says:

03:12pm | 04/08/09

You are quite wrong, Madison.  I have plenty to say. 

However, I don’t bother to read long comments in their entirety though I have made an exception here as I was responding.  This is because I see no point in showing off on the comments board or indulging in bouts of verbal diarrhoea. 

The initial post was regarding the screening of a doco by the MFF.  The comments section is only intended as a response - not to write garrulous posts offering one’s worldview.  If these comments were worth anything each of us would have our own column.  None of us do.

One should have the good sense to know when to call it quits.  The last word does not mean a battle won.

Sam says:

03:27pm | 04/08/09

James,

I’ve lived in China, and my wife is Chinese. All religions are sanctioned by the Chinese government so long as they don’t interfere with matters of state. Religion in China is as it should be everywhere else in the world, a personal matter between you and yourself. You are not free to allow your messianic delusions manifest themselves into political activism. BTW, in Australia, if you allow your religion to control you beyond a “code of conduct” and begin to make trouble by protesting against government policy, you are likely to be labelled a terrorist or simplly be involuntarily institutionalised, so there’s not much difference in effect, only that here there is the illusion that you alone can change the world. Which you are by definition incapable of.

A very important concept for westerners who want to understand China, is to understand that the individual lives within a society and anything that individual desires cannot adversely affect society. No Drugs, No thuggery on the streets or in schools, no organised crime, and obviously no political aspirations under the guise of religious mandates. In China too, if you want to contribute to making China even greater, you are welcome to become a member of the Communist Party, a party that is free from the necessities of political competition (ie. no need to lie to the people and make promises it doesn’t intend on delivering like here) and able to efficiently exercise effective decision making through consultation and colaboration of the countries brightest minds.

You’re actually wrong about the gap between poor and middle class in China being greater than in Australia. In Australia, the middle class are much closer to the rich than they are to the poor. In China, the middle class are much closer to the poor, with a huge gap between middle and rich. So, here we see your misconceptions about China.

Thanks for your recommending I challenge my education, but it is clear from the breadth of my argument and the lack of in yours, that I should respectfully suggest you point the finger at your own one-sided education.

Madison says:

03:27pm | 04/08/09

James, you’re right, the Chinese are not perfect but no form of government is. Perfection is but a Utopian ideal. The difference between China and the West is that the West self righteously thinks that democracy is the only way a country should be governed and continuously presses any non conformist countries to follow suit.

Sam says:

03:44pm | 04/08/09

Shama,

Get back to work if you don’t want to argue. You’re not winning any votes for teaching blogging etiquette!!! Your lack of “worldview” is precisely why you’ve chosen to side with the unwinnable war against commonsense (the commonsense being that separatist activities related to China will be squashed overtly or covertly or both)

James says:

04:09pm | 04/08/09

Madison, I have never suggested that any form of government is perfect.

“...In China, the middle class are much closer to the poor, with a huge gap between middle and rich…”

True, I worded my comment about that very badly in hindsight.  My point was more about the levels of poverty in china, and just how wide spread it is. 

..Thanks for your recommending I challenge my education..

I did not recommend anything, nor did I point the finger.  Don’t be so insecure.  I said you have the freedom to challenge your education, I didn’t say you had to do it or even recommend it.  You said you were not educated about Aboriginal history in an Australian school, but there is nothing stopping you from gaining an education about it now.  There would be in China.

I do not believe I have any serious misconceptions about China, most of my opinions and thoughts have been verified by my friends in China and colleagues or by myself while traveling.

My opinions here have represented MY dislike towards a totalitarian dictatorship, lack of freedom and severe levels of censorship.

I will continue to have a love hate relationship with the country (and more to the point, its government) but will not allow that to get in the way of my friendships, work, studies or future travel experiences. 

“...No Drugs, No thuggery on the streets or in schools, no organised crime…”

Please tell me you’re joking?  Surely no one can be that ignorant.  You can’t seriously believe that there is no level of any of the above in China, there might be less than here, but you can’t say it doesn’t exist at all.

“...religions are sanctioned by the Chinese government so long as they don’t interfere with matters of state….”

It is the Chinese Govt. definition of the word - interfere -  that is the problem, in my opinion.

I find it strange that people like Sam & Madison choose to live in or have any association with Australia.

“Peace” out.

Sam says:

04:56pm | 04/08/09

James,

Your “recommendation” was implied. And your assumption that I haven’t learned anything about Aboriginal history since I wasn’t taught any of it at school is what lead you to make your “recommendation”. So you’re wrong on both counts. You did recommend it, and you assumed that I haven’t already “challenged” my education. And actually, you’re wrong again. We have the internet in China, so there too we are free to learn about how the Aboriginies were/are treated in Australia.

>>My opinions here have represented MY dislike towards a totalitarian dictatorship, lack of freedom and severe levels of censorship.

Why? if the “dictatorship” (which the CCP is not) looks after you better than a system that allows your livelihood to be governed by the law of averages (or in Australia’s case, the law of the below-averages

Again, there is no lack of freedom in China, misconception number (I’ve lost count).

And “severe” levels of censorship, no just the appropriate level of governance necessary to protect you from your frivolous wanderings through the flood of mind-polluting opinions of the below-averages mentioned above. We have them too in China, see the populace is never immune from stupidity, so we’re not superior as a race/people, but we have the advantage of a responsible government that doesn’t allow its children to fall into the traps of life and tells them “you’re free to do whatever you want, we respect your human rights!”.

>>Please tell me you’re joking?  Surely no one can be that ignorant.  You can’t seriously believe that there is no level of any of the above in China, there might be less than here, but you can’t say it doesn’t exist at all.

Only a real ignoramus like you would read my passage and interprit it as a statement of fact regarding current crime statistics. It was written, and intended to be comprehended, as a summary of policy towards anti-social behaviour. For you benefit, here is the passage again…

“A very important concept for westerners who want to understand China, is to understand that the individual lives within a society and anything that individual desires cannot adversely affect society. No Drugs, No thuggery on the streets or in schools, no organised crime, and obviously no political aspirations under the guise of religious mandates.”

>>It is the Chinese Govt. definition of the word - interfere -  that is the problem, in my opinion.

Here’s your false sense of superiority, you think your opinion is more worthy than that of a government or elite minds dedicated to the national interest? You are delusional afterall. Who better to define it? you? or your equivalent Chinese citizen? Decisions in China are made by collaboration of experts, not every clown off the street gets to influence the results.

>>I find it strange that people like Sam & Madison choose to live in or have any association with Australia.

Aha… finally revealed your true self. Thank you. You don’t actually believe in democracy either, unless people agree with you. And I detect a hint of racism too. Well Done James, you’ve made my day. Madison and I live in Australia because we are free human beings. Free of your definitions of human rights and free of your hidden prejudice towards your own race. We bought our freedom with our money and our work, whereas you bought your freedom by killing thousands of people in countless regions of the world with your bullets. You remember that. Even with your bullets, you couldn’t enslave us, because ultimately we earned our “rights” with our brains and you earned your rights with bullets.

>> Peace out…

The ultimate disingenousness from an upside-down world. We know you’d rather turn Hitler on us than live in a world as equals with us, so we have no choice but to buy your pacifism and keep you watching Masterchef and keep telling you “you can make the world a better place”... hahaha.

I love Australia, because natural selection doesn’t depend on text votes and Australia is as much mine as it is yours.

James says:

05:45pm | 04/08/09

I said you CAN do something, and by ‘you’ i mean everyone all over the world can seek to challenge their education or knowledge about Australian history, that is all, no implications, assumptions, recommendations or otherwise.  You have assumed a lot from very little and that’s your problem.

I do feel that my definition of the word ‘interfere’ , in the context you mentioned it, is superior - but not for the sake of being so.

If you do not believe that an individual can contribute towards making the world a better place (for another individual, group, country etc.), then why do you still choose to live? whats the point, what are you achieving with your life other than purely existing?  It seems pointless to me.

........Aha… finally revealed your true self. Thank you. You don’t actually believe in democracy either, unless people agree with you. And I detect a hint of racism too….......We bought our freedom with our money and our work, whereas you bought your freedom by killing thousands of people in countless regions of the world with your bullets…....

Firstly, I haven’t actually said that I believe in democracy!  All of my comments and that of many others were originally in relation to this article and why we should not allow China to enforce its censorship on us.

Secondly, I am Australian born to a Canadian father and Chinese mother.  But I love how you’ve assumed that I am some sort of white neo-nazi.  You have made the assumption that I am related to the first settlers of this country and that I believe in what they did.  You have also assumed that I have no relation to China.  Your comments are full of contempt and indications of a sense of superiority yet you criticise a few of my comments for suggesting superiority. 

Thirdly, I’m curious about the concept of you being able to buy freedom?
(I do not believe it’s true freedom if it was forced, ie. If your only option to achieve freedom was to leave your country)

My point was that I do not understand why you live here, neither of you have said anything positive about this country and seem to knock the average Australian quite a bit, it’s funny that you reckon there is some sort of racist undertone to my comment when it has nothing to do with your race, it’s your attitude.

Sam says:

05:50pm | 04/08/09

It’s home time… to be continued 9am tomorrow morning if anybody else wants to have a go (providing I don’t have work to do!)
Tell everyone in Brunswick Street to give it their best shot. Let your inner xenophobe come out and play. Show me what you’ve got.

Madison says:

06:02pm | 04/08/09

James says:

Madison, I have never suggested that any form of government is perfect.

And I never said you did. But all of your rants seem to pointing fingers at the failures of the Chinese government and I’m agreeing with you that China is not perfect but neither is anyone else. It really does take a real moron to misconstrue the meaning of a single paragraph.

As for perfection in governance, China is a lot closer to it than any democracy out vilifying them are.

Madison says:

06:07pm | 04/08/09

James, are you in politics or a disabled gymnast?

You condemn the Chinese government yet now you say you don’t necessarily believe in democracy?

Without any legs to stand on you sure do some amazing back flips.

James says:

07:54pm | 04/08/09

...yet now you say you don’t necessarily believe in democracy?...

I did not say “don’t necessarily believe” I just didn’t say either way.

I said “...I haven’t actually said that I believe in democracy…” in response to sams assumption that I did believe in it, and by democracy I meant ‘our’ (australias) version of democracy (or the way the concept of democracy is applied to our society)

That is what the conversation now seems to be about {the aus. way of governance compared to the Chinese way]  [which are not the only ways to govern, and denouncing the Chinese government doesn’t automatically mean I’m a cheerleader of the Australian government, just that it’s MY preferred option out of the two]

I do believe in the idea of democracy but I don’t totally agree with the way it is applied in Australia.  I choose to live by ‘our’ way of governance, no matter how flawed it is, and not the Chinese way,  mostly because I believe that the lifestyle that it allows is far better -FOR ME-

So where’s the back flip? 

..As for perfection in governance, China is a lot closer to it than any democracy out vilifying them are…

Perfection in governance doesn’t automatically create a perfect society despite that being it’s aim - While striving for a perfect and uniformed society China continues to cleanse out any group that disagrees with it’s ideals.  The only way that it will ever work is if they close their borders completely, dig a moat around themselves and become totally self reliant.

In this instance China is attempting to enforce it’s ideals onto us, which should not be allowed.  If they want to show a film outlining their side of things I’m sure a film festival such as the MIFF would allow them to do so.

...Tell everyone in Brunswick Street to give it their best shot. Let your inner xenophobe come out and play…

It is clear that you are the one with prejudices.  My only prejudices are based around attitudes, not any particular race.

You are the xenophobe that seems to assume that every Australian is some how responsible for, or agrees with, the mistreatment of Aboriginal Australians.

You are the xenophobe that assumes that every Australian agrees with or supports war…

....bought your freedom by killing thousands of people in countless regions of the world with your bullets. You remember that. Even with your bullets, you couldn’t enslave us, because ultimately we earned our “rights” with our brains and you earned your rights with bullets….

That is a very xenophobic statement that tars every Australian with the same brush.

Sam says:

11:38pm | 04/08/09

Madison, that was hillarious. Back flips without any legs! Thanks.

James, you bought into the crap they sold you, are you half Chinese or just a half-wit? A certain level of censorship/control is part of any effective government. I don’t have anything against Australia (the country)... but I absolutely detest the average moron that roams the streets and gets to vote. Like I said we have morons in China too, but we don’t let them run the country, and we don’t tell them they are special when they wonder off the beaten path. We don’t give them support while they indulge in drugs. We don’t provide them with housing to sweep our problems under the carpet. Losers need to learn the hard way, or they will never learn. In China, you will see the losers on the streets struggling, learning the lessons of life. In Australia, losers are provided with no incentive to lift their game.

On the way home tonight I saw one of these losers, and I felt sorry for him. I thought “Oh my God, imagine if that was my son, what’s become of him, why did this happen to him.” I quickly came to the conclusion that the system had let him down and foresaken his soul. His existence wasn’t valued, so he was left to assign an arbitrary purpose to his existence… but before he found his purpose he had already fallen so low that there was little hope he could ever recover and pick himself back up and make a respectable human being out of himself. It’s exactly this kind of “lost” existence that I am most opposed to. Kong Ze said “plant a tree, build a house, sire a son”, only in Australia do you hear “I want to go on Australian Idol, did you see Dancinfg With The Stars, I think Julie is a good cook”. There is a prescribed formula for success, and your respect for individualism is only killing those whose rights you claim to be protecting. Why don’t you give up your voice and choose to learn from your superiors instead, or maybe you just like the sound of your own voice. Long live Australia, and Long Live China… and may God have mercy on the lost souls all over the world, especially the lost souls who believe in separatism or independence or genuine autonomy or whatever you want to call it.

Sam says:

11:45am | 05/08/09

James,

If you don’t stand for something you’ll fall for anything. You don’t believe in anything except your own opinion. You feel that your voice doesn’t matter, but you’re still trying to find someone who’ll support your stance… and what stance is that… not A, not B, just somwhere between A and B and you haven’t defined exactly where in your own mind. You’re lost mate, and your vote is purely an exercise in ego-maintenance. You backflip all over the place and your arguments are riddled with self-deating statements. You say you prefer Australia’s form of government becase it affords you a better lifestyle, which shows the level of your selfish thought process. Actually you’d prefer to live in Somalia if the terrorists there provided you with a better lifestyle. You’ll simply sway whichever the direction of the wind. You don’t care about your community, or your country, or the other individuals that are not catered for by your individual choices. You don’t seek a system for all, you’re only concerned that the system suits you. You’re the result of a typical western upbringing that puts the worthless individual at the centre of the universe… but with so many individuals, how can they all be at the centre? The answer is simple, they are only the centre of their own universe and they’d rather hold onto that delusion than to realign themselves with the reality that they are individually insignificant. Your self-centred opinions only serve to prolong the disunity of our (Australia’s) society, because it is our vote that leads us to persue individualistic goals rather than the 10%GDP growth that would afford you (and everyone else) a better lifestyle.

And if you’re so keen to take this thread back to its original topic, then fine… We can accommodate you there too. Kadeer is a criminal as much as Bin-Laden. If you can’t agree with that statement then you’re obviously regarding the Chinese with contempt. If you accept that Bin-Laden is a criminal then you ought to accept that Kadeer is too. Now imagine if an Australian muslim terrorist went to Somalia or Afghanistan to recruit other supporters of their separatist cause (for example - they want genuine autonomy for Tasmania). I mean this is laughable, if Australia had any ability to influence the activities of this separatis, it would certainly try. So, really, nobody is necessarily attacking free speech, but giving a criminal a podium and marketing platform for criminal aspirations, hey do it to yourselves, you and your lost buddies, but don’t for a moment think that China is one of your lost buddies who will respect your worthless opinion. Your opinion means nothing to us, so the only thing you’re acheiving is ego-maintenance and china-bashing. The first is hurting yourself without you knowing it, the second will hurt you indirectly by straining relations between your daddy (Australia) and your uncle (China). So I wonder, when will you wake up from your selfish opinionated nonesense.

Paulc says:

12:38pm | 05/08/09

Well what sickens me is Sam and Madison sledging off the country they live in in support for a totalitarian regime, and that is your choice and your opinion and in this country that is your right!, try that in your beloved China, so that also means that if we want to show and watch documentaries of our choosing that is our right which you cannot do in China, so simple solution guys pack you bags and live in China instead of filing blogs with your one eyed uneducated tyraids

Madison says:

12:56pm | 05/08/09

James, Sam assumed you believed in democracy and you came out and said in direct response, “I haven’t actually said that I believe in democracy.”

Well what are we suppose to think in context of things? Sorry for assuming the obvious. Then in your last post you said “I do believe in the idea of democracy… but I don’t totally agree with the way it is applied in Australia.”

James, you’re right, it was no back flip, it was a 2½ back somersault in a pike position.

As for the difference between “I don’t necessarily believe in democracy.” and “I haven’t actually said that I believe in democracy…”... buddy, you’re really splitting hairs with me there. Stop pointing out the exact wordings you used when the meaning is obvious and just argue your point. Oh yeah, that’s right, you don’t have one. Or it’s somewhere between no man’s land.

Madison says:

01:07pm | 05/08/09

Paulc nice of you to pipe up now. Uneducated? I think your delusional. I had a fine education here, and I bet my next paycheck it was better than yours. Sam and I were not sledging off Australia and you’re a fool if you read our posts and came to that conclusion. We were giving a backhand to the poorly educated blunt tools who hamper our nations progress. The likes of you no doubt.

Sam says:

01:09pm | 05/08/09

Paulc, pack your bags and find another planet!
I wasn’t bagging Australia, just the selfish opinionated individuals it is full of, who can’t stand to have their own “human rights” credibility called into question. If Australia was the sum of its people, nobody would come here, not even the first settlers, but thankfully Australia isn’t a collection of individualists, it is a country that merely tolerates them.
You’re sickened are you? Touched a nerve did I? Any counter-argument? or shall we proceed into a sledging match where you tell me how you’re more worthy of being Australian because I don’t agree with your stance? Believe in freedom of speech do you? rubbish, you want to deport anyone who doesn’t agree with you. Believe democracy looks after the collective interest? rubbish, it’s only an anti-corruption measure (because you’re so suceptible to corruption, given your lack of community) and a way to appease the populace (given you’re such a violent lot - as your history and crime statistics amplly proves). When you all grow up and start realising that all you individuals’ fates are inter-linked and you cannot escape from the consequences of your selfish thinking, then you’ll be ready to accept a more efficient form of government that doesn’t have to answer to every Tom, Dick and Harry with a selfish voice.

James says:

01:17pm | 05/08/09

Very funny. 

The meaning is not obvious, I was pointing out the fact that Sam ASSUMED what I believed in, just because I disagreed with the complete opposite way of doing things.

The general idea of democracy, and the way it is applied in Australia are not EXACTLY the same thing.  You can believe in the idea of democracy without totally supporting the way it is applied in any particular country. 

It’s sad that Sam and Madison think every thing is so black and white and that if you do not support one way, you must totally support the other. 

...You say you prefer Australia’s form of government becase it affords you a better lifestyle, which shows the level of your selfish thought process…

That from someone who believes that it is better to let people rot and starve on the street, instead of trying to help people who are worse off than ones self.  You think that letting people starve and rot away until they die is not ‘sweeping the problems under the carpet’ but giving welfare support is.

Paulc says:

02:42pm | 05/08/09

wow what a bite,

So Madison,  just giving a backhand to the poorly educated blunt tools who hamper our nations progress. The likes of you no doubt.

And Sam, If Australia was the sum of its people, nobody would come here, not even the first settlers, but thankfully Australia isn’t a collection of individualists, it is a country that merely tolerates them.
You’re sickened are you? Touched a nerve did I?

have you two actually listened to yourselves oh well we tolerate intelectual snobs as well, as for me I not proud to be Australian at times even embarrassed by it, but it is the society in which I live and there are some very good aspects and some very poor aspects and have to agree with James in the context you cant have one with out the other in a democracy, otherwise you have what you have in the Former USSR, Nazi Germany, China today, The Taliban attempting control Afghanistan and Pakistan, etc and this about whether to show a film about Uigers and whether Rebiah Kadeer comes to this country as a guest without influence from another country as was the Chinese Governments anger over Australia receiving the Dalai Lama, and if you think I am a Blunt Tool or susceptable to corruption then that is your prerogative after all we live in a democracy not perfect by any means but not bad either

Sam says:

02:48pm | 05/08/09

James,

People need to face the consequences of their life choices. If you support them, you’re providing no deterrent to others who are already on the slippery slope. The street strugglers in China do fine in the end, because they learn to stand on their own feet, and they don’t drain our tax dollars in the meantime.

And if you want to be so wishy washy about your definition of democracy then I put it to you that China is a democracy. A democracy within a huge party of experts who are dedicated to the national interest, rather than a democracy within an individualistic under-educated populace.

Shama says:

03:09pm | 05/08/09

Today’s news states that “A teenager was reportedly beaten to death by trainers at a rehabilitation camp in China where his parents had sent him to cure his internet addiction.”

Sam hope they don’t send you off to China given your number of posts.  Might help to get back to work and build the glorious future of the great nations of Australia and China.  Right now you are only continuing the great Aussie tradition of bludging and draining tax dollars.

Of course all your posts may well be an elaborate joke. If so time to fess.

James says:

03:11pm | 05/08/09

...People need to face the consequences of their life choices…

I agree.

...The street strugglers in China do fine in the end, because they learn to stand on their own feet,...

Some do, a hell of a lot don’t.  It would be naive to suggest differently.

...And if you want to be so wishy washy about your definition of democracy then I put it to you that China is a democracy….

I’m not talking about THE definition of democracy, I’m talking about the difference between THE definition and it’s ultimate APPLICATION IN AUSTRALIA

Sam says:

03:26pm | 05/08/09

Paulc,

The US considers Bin Laden a criminal and yet nobody has seen any evidence that would stand up in court. We’re not privy to that evidence (although I think it does exist), yet we respect that he is viewed in a negative light by the US, so we wouldn’t consider him a guest or grant him a visa would we? Now China considers Kadeer a separatist and has actually put some evidence of her manipulative attempts into the public doamin (do your own research), but you have the temerity to question this which shows your utter lack of respect for China’s authority and jurisdiction on the matter. Just because Australia started as a haven for convicts, doesn’t mean it should stay that way, and it is utterly silly to jeopardise our relationship with one of our biggest trading partners for the sake of what? Championing the freedom of speech of separatist movements? Where were you when David Hicks was hung out to dry for far less.

Sam says:

03:40pm | 05/08/09

Shama,

Have a look at ninemsn right now, have a laugh, it’s free. Do you think we are a healthier society? I’m not bludging on the doll, I’m bludging at work, there’s a difference. Actually, I’m helping shape the future of humanity, and having a laugh at the same time.

Sam says:

03:43pm | 05/08/09

James,

Are you gonna make a point one of these days? Or are you stuck in defensive mode from my attacks? You complained about us digressing from the point of this article, yet I still see no counter-argument. Again… why should Australians not respect China’s classification of Kadeer as a separatist? why?

Paulc says:

04:05pm | 05/08/09

Sam, there is alot of international evidence against Bin Laden in fact his own words condem him, but so far I personally have not seen evidence against Kadeer, only what the Chinese government has suggested, I may be wrong entirely about her but I believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt first. I am not questioning China’s jurisdiction at all, in fact the Stern Hu case if Stern HU has commited a crime in china, then it is China’s durisdictional right to persue Stern Hu, what I am questioning is whether China has the right to push its jurisdiction past its own borders and certainly onto another sovereign state, as for David Hicks he was involved with terrorists by his own admission.

So what does the fact that Australia was “started as a haven for convict’s” got to do with showing a lack of respect for Chinese authority? unless that is how the Chinese think of Australia in general.

Urabi says:

04:34pm | 05/08/09

So, Madison and Sam, what’s the conclusion? Should MIFF drop the movie? I just wondering, from all of your very long comments, are you guys actually justifying China’s action to try to censor a film festival held in a foreign country?

Oh, btw, I’m not a westerner.

Sam says:

04:52pm | 05/08/09

Paulc,

Who can argue with that kind of selective logic? Tell me, why are we pushing our ideas about nuclear disarmament onto the North Koreans? It wouldn’t be to counteract the rise of China as a influencial superpower would it? Why are we pushing our ideas about environmentalism onto the developing world? It wouldn’t be because the Indian and Chinese economies are threatening to upset the existing power of the “developed” world would it? Why are we pushing our ideas of democracy into the Middle East? It wouldn’t be because they’ve finally worked out a way of getting under our skin would it? I mean nobody gave a rat’s about North Korea until they announced their arrival on the world stage. Nobody gave a rat’s about carbon emissions before China decided to put its economy into overdrive. Nobody gave a rat’s about the “human rights” of Arabs in their own western-backed cia-built totalitarian regimes before some Arabs totally lost the plot and decided life wasn’t worth living anymore.

Mate, it’s time for a global effort on global issues… and the war on terror is one such issue. No more calls for independence from minority groups. Enough wars for the sake of the political aspirations of a single person. There isn’t going to be an independent Tibet or Xinjian, it’s impossible. So Kadeer is just a trouble-maker who is failing to adapt and holding onto her tribal allegiance rather than embracing a Chinese identity that doesn’t threaten her existence in any way shape or form. I mean, China actually has affirmative action for minority groups and minorities are encouraged to think of themselves as equally Chinese as the Han majority. There is no repression of tribal languages or regional dialects as long as they are separated from the official curriculum. The official curriculum is designed around the standard dialect which is the unifying aspect of China’s muti-culturalism. Kadeer is a rich woman, who became rich in China (so what repression?) and she has nothing left to acheive other than political aspirations. Why support a trouble maker? Why give them false hope? There is no hope for her cause, because her cause is misfounded and China is the last place on Earth where such an effort could succeed.

Why do you give her your ear and benefit of the doubt (what doubt?), and dismiss the Chinese authority’s classification of her as a separatist/terrorist? Upside-down world.

Sam says:

05:17pm | 05/08/09

Urabi,

Good question. No I don’t think the movie should be dropped (I can hear the laughter), but I don’t think you can expect to keep your sponsorship dollars either. I think her invitation and visa should absolutely be cancelled… and I think there should be another documentary screened at the same festival that shows China’s successful efforts at multicultural integration. If there is no such movie, then you can’t expect the Chinese to see your film festival as anything more than “trouble making”. You can have your film festival, but if you’re going to screen commentary on a current political issue, and you’ve shown no interest in showing both sides of the story, then I wouldn’t blame them for regarding you as akin to an enemy of the state. There’s a big difference between showing a doco about history and a doco about what’s currently happening.

Look, I just think you should think about hurting peoples’ feelings before you speak out in support of what you think is the truth. If you don’t know how to do that, then you have a reckless attitude towards relationships and believe me, when it comes to the Chinese, it’ll cost you dearly. Don’t bite the hand that feeds you and don’t backstab your mates. And don’t pretend we’re mates, if we aren’t really looking out for each other. China’s territory will not be compromised without massive loss of life, so don’t encourage the trouble makers, tell them to use the system to improve the situation from within. There is no chance of changing the system, no referendum, no vote. Accept it and let’s get on with day to day living, rather than dreaming of an independent state that would face the same problems anyway.

Madison says:

05:45pm | 05/08/09

Urabi, I don’t mean to sound abrupt, but if you actually read all my posts you’d have realised my stance on the screening of the film.

I think in this instance, freedom of speech prevailed but commonsense and diplomacy took a battering.

Sam says:

05:51pm | 05/08/09

And I must say, some media’s reporting on this issue has been incrediblly unprofessional, readily assuming that the hackers were organised by Beijing. You have no idea how proud the average Chinese kid is, he’ll hack into your sites and send you on a wild goose chase just for kicks. In the end, after a few weeks, Kadeer will still be an outlaw, Xinjiang will still be part of China, and you’ll keep your freedom of speech and Beijing’s list of enemies will have a few more names added to it for later “processing” and Australia and China will still do business… so your voice counted for nothing more than stirring in the end. And you copped as good if not better than what you gave.

For the final time, it’s good bye from “Mr. Superiority Complex”... Sam

johnv_au says:

02:40pm | 07/08/09

If a goverment will arrest a australian national and havent charged him yet what makes you think it would not intimidate its own citizens and futher more we deal with this same country on a large scale so i would say always expect the worst from them its like dealing with children if its not going there way they want to take their bat and ball and go home LETS NOT BE INTIMIDATED BY THESE PEOPLE

Sam says:

03:37pm | 07/08/09

Alright, I’ll come out and play…

johnv_au,

so the US are are like children are they? because you’ve just described the US without realising it. Why should any government have to answer to you? I’m sure the Australian authorities have already accepted that Stern Hu has broken at least one Chinese law, it’s only some members of the Australian public with a negative disposition towards China that keep questioning the every action by the Chinese government just because nobody asked for your vote. Sounds like you’re the one who want to take your bat and ball and go home since you can’t accept the rules of working with China. Who’s trying to bully who? It’s the Australian public who is trying to bully their own government into making noise about a simple legal issue. In China, you’re under Chinese law, and your opinion is even less significant there than it is here. So why don’t you start a movement for independence of Tasmania and see how you’re treated by your own government. What a farse.

Sam says:

05:56pm | 07/08/09

Kadeer is pushing for independence which isn’t going to happen without war, so effectively she’s a trouble maker and her own people don’t agree with her separatist activism… so why don’t you talk to them. What stinks is how you’re treating Kadeer with more respect than the Chinese government. You are recklessly endangering a relationship that I need to keep my job. Maybe you don’t have a job so you’ve got nothing to lose… but I’d rather keep my job and tell Kadeer to jump. You’re forgetting she’s a rich woman who’s already had 10 kids and I’m sure she’s a little home sick, so she’s making trouble for her own selfish political aspirations. She wants “genuine autonomy” or “self determination” for a minority group she claims she represents… that’s absurd. Watch the movie, but you shoot yourself in the leg by giving her the time of day.

Sam says:

12:58am | 08/08/09

And for crying out loud, Chinese people love China, so stop trying to spread the word that the Chinese are treated badly by their own government. They don’t measure governments by the same yard-stick you use and they have an entirely different view on the role of the individual within a society. Once again, it is people outside China who are bullying China to move closer towards a democracy. If you believe in democracy and people’s right to self-determination, then why can’t you accept that the Chinese have chosen a different way of managing a massive piece of land with a massive population that consists of more than 50 ethnic groups that are all catered for under ONE system that employs affirmative action to advantage minority groups. Any notion that the Han majority are in it for themselves is simply false and without any foundation. Regional sub-cultures are only a tourist attraction so why would the central government in Beijing “clamp down” on any of it. It doesn’t make any sense at all. As long as these sub-cultures don’t become politically motivated, they’re encouraged to co-exist. As for the languages, well you can’t expect the central government to give equal weighting to different dialects, otherwise the dominant language will sway according to population distribution.

johnv_au says:

10:47am | 08/08/09

To Sams Mail bag

Sam you contradict yourself so often its hard to see what your trying to actualy say just like your goverment (do you work for the goverment ) you will lose your job what do you do and yes i am working in the mining industry and we are closer to china than you thought but if it means being dictated to by your goverment you can stick you money up your arse we can go somewhere else and that is not just me personaly speaking its australia so remember no one tells us what to do just for money (WE ARE AUSTRALIANS)

By the way get to bed what are you doing up at that time of night

Madison says:

01:39pm | 08/08/09

John, your opinion is yours only and you’re foolish if you think you can speak for the rest of us. There is no way Australia can afford to lose China as an export and import partner. You’re in the mining industry? For starters that does not make you anymore the wiser on China as can be clearly seen by your attitude here. Secondly one should know to never bite the hand that feeds you. Who do you think is putting food on the table for you each night? For your children to buy books and clothes so that they may get a better job than mining the desolate quarries? As Sam rightly put it, Australia needs China more than China needs Australia. For you, that may be a hard pill to swallow but it’ll do you a world of good if you can accept it.

johnv_au says:

03:26pm | 08/08/09

Madison
The hand that feeds us will that be the hand that slaps us too, and ask australians what thay think, and mining has got every thing to do with this issue

CHINA needs our ore to grow , and dont patronize me with who feeds and clothes me and my children they and me will always be free with or without China . and i never said i was wise just able to read between the lines (and by the way are you and sam working shifts on this suject)

Madison says:

07:56pm | 08/08/09

If by asking the MIFF to withdraw this film is a slap to Australia then I put it to you that asking for the release of Stern Hu by Australians is a slap to China. Yes the mining industry is tied in heavily with China but just because you work in it does not make you an automatic expert on diplomatic relations between the two countries and hence your views need to be taken with more than a grain of salt.

You want to know what Australia thinks? Well being a democracy, the government represents the united voice of our nation and they see keeping good diplomatic relations with China as a high priority. So it seems your opinion is of a minority view. And in a democracy the minorities lose. Gee, sorry about that mate. Looks like democracy isn’t all that great after all aye?

As it stands, here in Australia we have an abundant supply of resources and our relative geographical closeness makes it a viable option for the two countries to trade. But let it be made absolutely clear that China DOES NOT need Australia to grow. It would be naive to think China could not obtain the same resources elsewhere because after, we’re only exporting rock at global market prices. I stand by my original argument and think you should think(is it that hard?) twice before biting the hand that feeds you.

Sam says:

12:23am | 11/08/09

johnv_au

>>“Sam you contradict yourself so often its hard to see what your trying to actualy say just like your goverment (do you work for the goverment ) you will lose your job what do you do and yes i am working in the mining industry and we are closer to china than you thought but if it means being dictated to by your goverment you can stick you money up your arse we can go somewhere else and that is not just me personaly speaking its australia so remember no one tells us what to do just for money (WE ARE AUSTRALIANS)”

“WE ARE AUSTRALIANS” ... so are we.

Just because you don’t understand my arguments doesn’t mean they’re contradictory. You’ve been overpaid for the past 5 years purely because of China’s imports. Actually, if China decided to do less business with Australia, your job would probably be the first to go. Your determination to have your selfish voice heard is only matched by the irresponsibile nature of what you have to say. You are the reason why I argue against this “democracy”. Democracy is only good when people care about each other and consider the common good. I told you that I was concerned about my job, but my concern wouldn’t even register in your mind. Thank goodness Australia isn’t full of people with reckless mindsets like yours. Grow up, finish high school, then shove it.

johnv_au says:

11:15am | 11/08/09

SAM
I already said i know where your argument is coming from you want australia to bow down to your masters
Still dont know how it affects your job australia has survived for hundreds of years getting better and better year by year without china
I dont think i’m over paid left school at 14 and worked in the industry for 35 years helping australia become a wealthy country and give my kids a good start in life OH and you ?now you throw it back in my face unlike China we share the wealth again its called democr—- you know the rest .
SAM can correct the spelling and grammer I’m still trying to get through high school in my spare time

Democracy is only good when people care about each other and consider the common good. I told you that I was concerned about my job, but my concern wouldn’t even register in your mind. Thank goodness Australia isn’t full of people with reckless mindsets like yours. Grow up, finish high school. You are the reason why I argue against this “democracy”.

YOUR WORDS make a stand one way or the other, I believe you have the right to your say, but you stoop to insults when i have mine

Sam says:

11:43am | 11/08/09

johnv_au,

No I don’t want Australia to bow down to anyone. My argument is not with the Australian government who have in my view managed the issue as best as they can given the limitations of our system. My argument is with the members of the Australian public who are bullying the Australian government to make a silly stand against China for the sake of ...
(1) your over-inflated sense of self-worth/ego/sound of your own voice
(2) your hypocritical pity for a separatist/terrorist sympathiser/trouble maker
(3) and you don’t fool me, I know there’s a whole heap of xenophobes out there (that means people who are scared of being taken over by migrants and especially asians). These xenophobes are becoming more and more the minority and have fewer opportunities to voice their concerns, so when they get the chance, they scream louder and louder, and they’ll jump on any anti-china anti-migrant anti-refugee bandwagon. On one hand you pretend to care for the plight of the Uighur people, but on the other hand, you wouldn’t want to take in a bunch of muslim refugees if you could avoid it. Take a good hard look at yourself, mate, coz I can see straight through the lot of ya. You’re confused, and your numbers are dwindling, and you’re grasping at thin air, and you’ve got little to hold on to other than that inflated sense of self-worth that you’ve been programmed to believe in.

Mark my words…You will not have the last word on this page.

Shama says:

03:07pm | 11/08/09

Hey Sam why don’t you go to The Australian website which has a piece on Kadeer’s address at the Canberra Press Club and kill the disucssion there.

I guess johnv_au has to work and cannot afford the luxury of full time commenting which is why you will always have the last word.

Sam says:

04:08pm | 11/08/09

Thanks Shama, I’ll do my best. It’s a tough job but someone’s gotta do it.

johnv_au says:

11:57am | 12/08/09

Well Sam is permited to go to the australian website and read the address to the press club by Kadeer and make my own mind up and kill the disucssion ?? THATS ALL I WANTED IN THE FIRST PLACE

Sam says:

12:24pm | 12/08/09

johnv_au,

John, you’re a terrorist-sympathiser.

Actually I couldn’t find the transcript of her address. It’s not freely available. I wondered what she has to say, but it seems it must have contained so little merit worthy of publication.

Madison says:

01:10pm | 12/08/09

It wasn’t broadcast on the ABC. I doubt very much John got a hold of it. His illiterate ramblings mislead you Sam, he was just referring to the same piece Sharma was.

Here’s a little discerning insight into it-
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-08/11/content_11865477.htm

Sam says:

01:40pm | 12/08/09

Thanks Madison, I don’t understand why some people prefer to go to war rather than live in harmony. Are they so easily mislead by misinformation and political spin, or are they inherently violent and self-righteous? What’s your opinion?

johnv_au says:

01:55pm | 12/08/09

I’m still waiting for you to give me permission to go and read it ,sam

And I dont want a war the last thing anyone wants I HOPE

Sam says:

03:02pm | 12/08/09

johnv_au,

The link Madison supplied is for a piece on XinHua that briefly and effectively drills a million holes in Kadeer’s credibility. I haven’t found a transcript, but I believe it is available for a fee from the National Press Club.

You have my permission to click on the link (as long as you sing the Australian national anthem while you’re doing it).

If you want to be serious, for a second, I ask you to consider that the whole population of the world would benefit if the world was without people who seek independence for their own backyards. People need to work within the system to improve their circumstances. The more revolutions and civil wars there are, the more we’ll all drift towards communism, and then martial law. China’s current set of policies allow any individual to aspire to wealth as much as in Australia. Once upon a time, democracy was thought of as the only way for people to have self-determination, but China has proven that is a false assumption. People should try to understand that China today is not what China was 50 years ago. Bottom line is, China demands our respect and we’d all be better off if we gave it freely. Any talk of human rights violations and oppression in China is 99% misinformation trying to tugg at your heart strings. Go to China and live there for a little while, and you’ll see that life there ain’t half as bad as what some people make it out to be (especially Western media interests who can’t bear not having the right to publish or broadcast to 20% of the world’s population). Big business is pulling your leg and keeping the common Aussie and common Chinaman from seeing eye to eye.

johnv_au says:

03:49pm | 12/08/09

A benevolent dictator but can we find one
You have me and australins wrong if you think we dont like Chinese people. And we are as suspicious of big business as we are of reports from media we know that we are being manipulated but we also have media that tell us how it realy is so with the aid of the internet we will find some truth
We also know China is the next world power but what to expect that is why we want to be free to read or listen to all information and choose who we believe and who we do not believe ( and that dosent mean only China we are as Suspicious of our own politician’s
Australian national anthem I’ll ask my kids they sing it every day

China demands our respect ? China can earn our respect as can anyone who wants it, and we will earn the respect of China

Sam says:

04:43pm | 12/08/09

johnv_au,

Sounds good, but why did you so readily accept the US declaring Al-Qaida as a terrorist group inspite of not only a lack of evidence in the public domain, but also - later on - evidence that some evidence linking Al-Qaida to 911 was fabricated… whereas you don’t so readily accept that there is a separatist movement in XinJiang that was behind the riots on July 5th and that separatist movement is championed by Kadeer’s political aspirations and independence hopes. When it comes to matters of national security, we’ve all accepted the argument that sometimes the public don’t need to know the extent of the evidence linking the perpetrator with the alleged crime, and perhaps we’ve got a lot more in common with the Americans so we got behind them after 911 without so much as a whimper about due process or freedom of expression for the cynical few. The Russians also used this loosely defined “terrorism” in their operations in Georgia and Chechneya and the world swallowed it. The Turks use it against the Kurds who are amazingly terrorists on one side of the Turkish/Iraqi border while they are protected by the Americans on the other side of that border as victims of Saddam’s terrorist regime. The situation is far from clear for the average Joe Bloe, but basically if you stay out of trouble and don’t have any aspirations to violently oppose the big boys on the block you should be fine. So why would Beijing bother to squash something, if there was nothing there that prompted that sort of reaction? I thought it was clear that we’ve reached a point in our history where we don’t support further violent uprisings, or does it depend on who is being violent and who is being challenged? If discreditted historian David Irving can’t come here to preach anti-semtism in the form of holocaust denial, how on Earth can you allow Kadeer to promote her political aspirations which incite violence and racial tensions? She is a criminal in China, do you think she is doing her people any favours other than giving them false hope? What does she think she will acheive, other than cause a slight hiccup for Chinese foreign policy relations by taking advantage of Australians’ kind-heartedness and generousity. She’s making trouble for you and for me and the entire human race, there are people dying, if you care enough for the living (enough Michael Jackson - sorry!)

johnv_au says:

04:51pm | 12/08/09

Madison
You always bring the conversation to its lowest level dont you, if put in a corner revert to name calling
you may be better educated than me, but you are not using it very well, what a wast of money and time
As i told you already sticks and stones
A little Maturity will help so you can ask some of your grown up friends to help you if you decide to make any more comments

johnv_au says:

05:58pm | 12/08/09

but why did you so readily accept the US declaring Al-Qaida as a terrorist group inspite of not only a lack of evidence in the public domain, but also - later on - evidence that some evidence linking Al-Qaida to 911 was fabricated… whereas you don’t so readily accept that there is a separatist movement in XinJiang that was behind the riots on July 5th and that separatist movement is championed by Kadeer’s political aspirations and independence hopes.

The above is exactly what i am trying to say to you Sam i NEVER SAID AND I DONT ACCEPT I just want to watch the film and i wil then tell you what i think if your interested if not the conversation has to end here

Madison says:

06:21pm | 12/08/09

HAHA John, how did you corner me? It’d be impossible for someone of your calibre to get even close to cornering me. I don’t believe you’ve responded to my last post @ 06:56pm | 08/08/09. And what names have I called you? I said your post was illiterate and misleading which it was. Learn to differentiate between fact and name calling.

Madison says:

06:29pm | 12/08/09

John, so now you accept the fact Kadeer is a separatist troublemaker yet think it’s okay for her to glorify her cause in Australia. Are you serious?

johnv_au says:

07:21pm | 12/08/09

Is there anybody else out there want to talk to these two i’m on holidays tomorrow 3 weeks in hong kong I promise not incite the locals Sam

Sam says:

12:17am | 13/08/09

johnv_au

Have a good holiday, HK is great fun. Over and out.

acotrel says:

09:47am | 13/08/09

It’s ‘the moment of truth’!  Do we really have principle, or does the dollar have the final say?

Madison says:

11:31am | 13/08/09

Get another load of this western bias.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25920872-7583,00.html

Sam says:

01:19pm | 13/08/09

yeah, a principle called self-righteousness.

Shama says:

04:21pm | 13/08/09

I think the readers of this column are clear that Sam and Madison are in agreement with the policies of the Chinese government.  However, it’s hardly likely that they are speaking on behalf of the Chinese.  I lived in Shanghai for awhile and have Han Chinese friends there.  They are nationalists but their thoughts are way more nuanced than the blinkered opinions of these two gentlemen. Though I hesitate to use the word gentleman given their comments on the illiteracy of commenters on this board.  It’s a pity that they haven’t picked up the egalitarianism of the country they live in. And mates your English isn’t so flash either.

Re the Al Qaeda, I think you will find volumes of all kinds of opinions in the West - I don’t think anyone is exactly silent on the hypocrisies of the West - why you gentlemen are exposing it quite freely on this board. Simply because hypocrisy exists here doesn’t make it right elsewhere - the point is that citizens are free to criticise their government and to debate the issues here.  You can make a doco on 9/11 conspiracy theories and no one is going to pull it out for contradicting the official version.  At most it will be great material for the comedy circuit.  A sense of humour may also be a good thing to pick up from the country you live in.

If the Chinese government is in the right, it should have no need to go around being a bully (or have its apologists on this board pull out those old chestnuts of confucian order and those cliched arguments on this counrty being full of drunken yobs on the dole).  A dignified silence or dialog would have earned it more kudos than being the heavy on the street.  To be honest it seems a government in dire need of being able to engage with the world in a language other than money and might.  Thankfully it’s people are more diverse than the official line.

Sam says:

04:52pm | 13/08/09

oh Shama, your analysis is sooooo childish. You only know how to argue your opinion without looking into alterior motives. At the end of the day, Beijing’s control over its territory has been further consolidated by the chinese population’s reaction to the western reporting on the Urumqi riots and their championing of Kadeer’s freedom of speech. All Australia has acheived is to strengthen Beijing’s authoritarian grip, actually the chinese people are gladly rushing into Beijings comforting authoritarian arms because they are continually shown examples of western hipocracy and unfair reporting. Beijing doesn’t need to enforce its authority, it’s gets it by default because the west can’t pretend to be principled against Al-Qaida and then backflip for “East Turkistan”. You’ve no idea what’s actually happening do you?

Shama says:

05:09pm | 13/08/09

Sam you armchair analyst, I have as much idea as you have of what’s happening in China. I read a variety of papers as much as you do.  And nothing is as childish as proclaiming someone else to be childish (tut tut shush shush you child is such a hopeless way of arguing). 

Please use this electronic Hyde Park to go on braying your version of events.  In turn I will go and transmit my childish opinions in an electronic Jing An Park. But hang on - China has banned all social networking sites haven’t they?  Now how on earth did all those Chinese people get exposed to bad Western reporting and so strongly prevail? 

By the way you could do with some help in constructing your arguments with better analysis, language and spelling.  Still your long suffering readers give you permission to post - soon you will bump this column as the most commented on and be right above that symbol of Australian degeneracy, Kyle.

Sam says:

05:38pm | 13/08/09

Shama, losing the plot a bit aren’t you? Want to win an argument based on spelling? I doubt you’d win anyhow. You wanna give me English lessons, good because you can’t teach debating that’s for sure. I reckon more than half your posts aren’t even about the topic, you’re constantly defending yourself. And claiming the moral highgroud won’t do you much good on a blog… get with the times. Where did you get this “China has banned all networking sites”... obviously you’ve never been there mate, because they’re mad on qq, msn, skype, 163, sohu… just because they don’t use your sites! And mobile phone credit is so cheap… and I hope you don’t really believe that no more than 5 people can gather without a permit… because that’s just not reality. Everyday after work, there are hundreds of people gathered in any open space you can find, dancing, playing music, practicing a traditional art of some sort, or playing chess… they don’t need to write on your facebook wall!!! And how do they know about biased western media, they have ADSL and they love to discuss things like how the bbc cropped something vital out of the picture to change the impression it would give the reader… oh, they’ve got you covered mate, they’ve got you well and truely covered. But hey, since you bring up Kyle, go on tell me how lucky we are to have the freedom to treat 14 rape victims that way. God bless our freedoms.

Shama says:

05:48pm | 13/08/09

Also Sam your Al-Qaeda analogy is quite wrong.  If tomorrow AQ were to fly planes through a Beijing building because of Xinjiang the world’s reaction would be different.

Xinjiang is right now an internal matter, there is no external aggressor.  States are constantly reformed and remade because of dissent in the provinces for many reasons.  They can be remade because of ideological differences too.  Politically the state in power normally deals with it by a show of force along with concessions.  I have no doubt that in Xinjiang both methods are being employed.  However in art and literature dissent is portrayed in a neutral manner (let’s hear all sides of the story approach) and may even be romanticised.  We all know how the American South, the Irish rebellion or even terrorist groups like the Weathermen were dealt with.  But importantly, other versions of these events are allowed to exist.  The American South can restage battles it won in the Civil War or write books from their point of view.  Films can be made sympathetic to the Irish cause.  You can make a documentary on the Weathermen and let the viewer decide whether they were principled or bad.  I think this is where the Chinese government erred simply because they have got used to a culture of propaganda.  They are so immersed in it that they cannot understand that this is not a common language of all parts of the world.  Unfortunately, the paranoia in banning documentaries, facebook and the like puts them on par with despot regimes instead of a sophisticated, assured world power.

Bridge says:

06:30pm | 13/08/09

I wonder who actually watched the documentation, ‘the 10 conditions of love’.

Sam says:

10:32pm | 13/08/09

Shama, the chinese are mad about qq which is an instant messenger. They’re not short of social networking sites either… and don’t tell me about no gathering between 5 people or more because that’s simplly nonsense, There are hundreds of people gathering in the streets daily for dancing, musical performances, various traditional arts and they love their chinese chess. They’re not oppressed, they’re too busy living. But off-course you only concentrate on the negative news about some internet addicts, as if we don’t have PS3 addicts here! I didn’t mean the “childish” reference to put you down, I was sincerely pointing out that you haven’t posted any comment that attempts to read into what’s happening. You’re simplly pro freedom of speech and anti foreign “bullying” from Beijing (Duh! you call that analysis?). My English is better than yours, I just dumb it down for the benefit of others. Wouldn’t want to really blow you guys out of the water with a discourse on individual freedom in its currently acceptable form. And since you bring up the subject of Kyle…I don’t believe Kyle should have been free to do what he did, and nor should the mother have been free to do what she did, and nor should the girl have been free to do what she did. 3 free people in a comedy of errors, all shooting themselves and their community in the leg with their irresponsible “freedom”. Freedom as it is currently defined is irresponsible and significantly hampers any prospect of a harmonious society or global community… but you’d rather hold on to your individual freedom than ever see the dream of a global community realised.

Madison says:

01:00am | 14/08/09

China hasn’t banned social networking; take a look at xiaonei. I doubt very much you’ve even been to China so I can’t imagine how you would have more idea about China just by reading western newspapers than someone who makes daily contact with Chinese counterparts and gets both sides of the story though Chinese and Western media.

And Shama, neither Sam or I have proclaimed to be english language professors. It’s not the reason we comment. If you think we’re here to show off our language prowess then you’ve got some seriously whacky thought processes. I took a swipe at johnv_au because some of his posts were so incoherent that it become tedious to read and reread only to still be misled. If you must degenerate and go down that line then I’ll suggest your grammar ain’t too crash hot either. Clean your hands before you point that finger.

Madison says:

02:59am | 14/08/09

Shama, if you have lived in Shanghai do you mind saying the common greeting phrase “how are you” in Shanghai for me? I feel a tug on my leg, that’s all.

Shama says:

09:49am | 14/08/09

Madison your comment on basic Chinese phrases is stupid.  Even casual tourists to China would know this and I won’t dignify your post with a response.  I lived near Jing An park which is why I mentioned it.  And its moronic to think you two are the sole people here with contact with a Chinese person.  Or even that we should take your claims seriously.  If I am lying, who’s to say you two souls have uttered nothing but the truth?

I think we are talking at cross purposes here.  Your posts sound entirely stupid and unstructured to me - China good, West bad, but I wanna live here, China will dominate the world, blah blah.  I can’t see that you have addressed anything Mr. Penberthy said so its now just a name calling exercise.  The issue is whether a foreign government should try and pressure Australia to ban a doco.  Instead of addressing this you seem to have gone on to give your own theories on all kinds of things.  You remind me in fact of small people who sit in their offices and feel grandiose by associating with whatever looks mighty and strong and then sneer at the rest.  The fact remains that the Chinese government is a bully with regard to the MFF, the fact remains that you can post anything here but I can’t hop across to a Chinese site and post that China should let the MFF show the movie.

Excuse me but access to Chinese social networks does not by any means indicate in any way that the Chinese have access to a wide variety of information. 

I don’t care how many times you or I misspell, we are just commenters on this site.  You should have been civil enough to not question people’s literacy on this board - it hurts doesn’t it when your abilities are questioned?  And Sam’s dumbing down of his language is hilarious. Who do you think the readers of The Punch are mate? Maybe it’s just that you are dumb.  As for debates - the art of a good debate would entail that you know what brevity means.

Sam says:

10:35am | 14/08/09

Shama,

You’d love to live in a world where you define successful debators by their grammar and brevity and vocabulary and ability to quote prominent historical figures… but that isn’t the real world. In the real world, it’s about the sentiment of your argument and whether listeners can appreciate your contention. Your point is simple and basic and void of higher understanding, pro freedom of speech and anti foreign interference (well done!). My point is, separatism is a path to independence and independence costs blood. It is far more humane and civilised to work within the system to acheive positive outcomes. Who cares about the movie and Kadeer, the crux of the issue is Western support for anyone who “stands up” to China… That’s not foreign interference is it? How’s that for “brevity”...

Shama says:

11:35am | 14/08/09

Sam debate is never merely about sentiment.  And your last post proves this. It’s well reasoned, thought out and lucid. 

Separatism is common everywhere.  People are pragmatic enough to make adjustments, that’s how the world works.  You can take the view that any disruption of the status quo is threatening or you can take the view that the status quo must be threatened (and may I point out that the Chinese have often remade their history).  I don’t think you should shut down either point of view.  Also I think you are making a mistake in thinking that people are supporting Kadeer because she is “standing up” to China.  It is possible to admire the Chinese and hold a different opinion on Xinjiang.  So let’s just say that as with any argument we agree to disagree.  And its great that people can disagree.

My apologies for my comments on language. They were solely in response to previous posts.

Sam says:

12:14pm | 14/08/09

OK, agree to disagree… that’s a positive point about our system. You don’t have to appologise, you gave as good as you took, but since you did, I’ll reciprocate with an appology of my own for my vulgar attacks. I propose we move on to Burma, I find Suu Kyi far more worthy of our support than Kadeer. Now there’s a clear example of a government that doesn’t do it’s best for its people. I really believe that Beijing is not in that category. I’m the world’s greatest cynic but I believe in Beijing’s ethics and management.

Shama says:

12:48pm | 14/08/09

I am not part of the Kadeer fan club.  But demonising her or silencing her doesn’t help either.

The Punch has not seen it fit to cover Aung San’s latest detention or Burma in general (unless I have been so busy posting here I missed it, anyway they seem to be Oz centric).  Even if they did, there might be like 6 responses?!

Madison says:

01:32pm | 14/08/09

Shama, there is no way an Indian national who has lived in Shanghai for a few years would be more privy on China than someone who was born in Macau SAR, raised by Shanghainese parents who lived through the cultural revolution, seen both the good and bad the communist regime has dished out, has himself lived in Shanghai and more rural areas of China and has had schooling in China and in Australia. My grandfather was persecuted to death by the communist party in the 50’s through public denounciations for having property, my father was sent to rural labour camps soon after and harbored a hatred for the communist regime for decades. But even he will admit that the communist party of today has changed so dramatically from the days of old and that the steps they are taking now are positive and decisions they are making are sound.

As for not addressing the topic? I think Sam and I have made it very clear why we think China pressured the MIFF not to screen the movie. But for your benefit here it is again. China has asked the MIFF not to screen the film portraying someone they believe is a threat to national security aka terrorist. It’s a perfectly normal course of action. Australia or any other country would do the same if put in the same situation. And as for the argument on whether Kadeer is indeed a terrorist, I ask - who are you to question China’s judicial sovereignty? To China, Kadeer is a terrorist and will be dealt with as such, and that includes asking other countries to not glorify her cause.

Shama says:

01:53pm | 14/08/09

Madison, due respect to your history. But history doesn’t automatically make you the expert on the Chinese government’s reaction.

Due repect to China’s sovereign status. They can do what they want in China including branding people terrorists (judging by your accounts Mao was a terrorist too). And due respect to Xinjiang’s history too. 

This is a country where people make movies on Ned Kelly and Chopper Read.  Enough said about what Australia’s hypothetical reaction will be.

Madison says:

02:06pm | 14/08/09

Yes but Ned Kelly and Chopper Read are not at large (well okay Chopper may still be but his pretty much docile now). Plus, they were both criminals, not a threat to the stability of the country. Your argument is void.

Sam says:

02:30pm | 14/08/09

I think Madison is closer to expert status on this topic than any of us. His account also illustrates precisely why war and revolution should be avoided as much as possible. If you think the Uighurs of XinJiang are somehow unfairly treated now, just immagine what’ll become of them if full-on revolution is attempted. All the while Kadeer is egging them on from a safe distance. How irresponsible? her own family have told her where to go.

Shama says:

02:32pm | 14/08/09

The Australian situation is hypothetical - there is no separatist movement here.  Kelly and Read were examples of Australian attitudes (and of course Australia had enough Irish convicts at the beginning of its history, it was in fact home to inconvenient separatists).

India has numerous separatist movements. The Army is stationed in various places, there is rioting once in awhile.  The government will try to preserve the union.  But to the best of my knowledge they don’t issue veiled threats to prevent these people from speaking elsewhere.  You might even find them interviewed on Indian TV.  Regional parties that want autonomy get elected once in awhile.  Also maps that come into India are still corrected.  But India doesn’t act belligerently regarding maps elsewhere that show Kashmir quite differently from what India wants it to be.

China honestly needs a more nuanced attitude regarding what it projects re Xinjiang, Taiwan, Tibet etc no matter that the ground realities may indicate co-existence.

Sam says:

02:49pm | 14/08/09

I think India has to take a different approach because of the deeply ingrained sanctity of life in Indian religions. If the Indian government became heavy-handed with its separatists, it could backfire and cause a public backlash. China doesn’t have a deeply religious population so it’s easier to impose on the individual the idea that they are secondary to the community and the nation. So the Chinese government can deal with outbursts of separatism efficiently and decisively, whereas I imagine the Indian government would employ a more long-term strategy to either discredit the separatists or to win the hearts and minds of those who contemplate it. What do you think Shama? you’d be more of an expert on this one…

Shama says:

03:04pm | 14/08/09

Sam I am afraid the sanctity of life in India is a myth!

I think India is possibly more diverse, has more languages, cultures and the like which makes a difference.  Also the Chinese like order and are efficient, we are very chaotic.  But sometimes the chaos helps us and issues die away.

Madison touched on communism in China. Subordinating the individual and identifying an enemy in Mao’s society obviously cost Madion’s family.  So I find it odd that Madison (I presume he is Han) cannot empathise with people who may similarly be outsiders or voiceless in Chinese society today.

Sam says:

03:32pm | 14/08/09

Well Shama, that’s because in China it doesn’t make a difference if you’re Han or not, that’s just a western divide and conquer strategy. The only thing that matters is whether you support the current government. Whether it’s Mr. Mao or Mr. Hu Jin Tao, disloyalty is not tolerated. There is no racial divide within China because of Beijing, quite the contrary, the ethnic groups are proud of their culture and use it to attract business which serves Beijing’s economy and tourism industries very well, but watch out you don’t become political motivated, that’s when you’ll begin having problems.

Madison says:

03:35pm | 14/08/09

Shama, you draw on some funny historical analogies. Irish convicts as separatists? Kelly and Read as terrorists? Get off it. You’re arguments are becoming more and more ludicrous. Have a look at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXL9mxV49xo and tell me if that compares to the current protests in India. And the lack of automatic weapons and planes does not make this any less an act of terrorism.

If we were to discuss what Australia would hypothetically do in the same given situation, I think we should turn to the Bali bombers. Granted the events did not occur on our soil but the main targets were Australian and that makes it an act of terror against Australia. If the Bali bombers made a film glorifying their cause and sent it to China and the Chinese warmly accepted the film and invited the masterminds to speak in their press I am absolutely positive our government would have some stern words for China.

Mao’s classification of public enemies was no doubt wrong but the current administration has not used the same principles to brand Kadeer an enemy.

Sam says:

03:41pm | 14/08/09

That’s a good one Madison…  “Stern words” (I’m still laughing

Sam says:

04:10pm | 14/08/09

Hey Madison, they’re China bashing again at the australian

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25925627-5015664,00.html

They’re so slow processing posts… I’m going after Don, you take the rest. I’ll be the bad cop, you be the good cop. Let’s get ‘em. Zhong Guo, Jia Yo.

Shama says:

04:28pm | 14/08/09

Madsion, its well known that Irish political prisoners were transported to Australia. I can’t be bothered with digging up references but here is one.

http://members.iinet.net.au/~perthdps/convicts/res-13.html

Please don’t put words in my mouth re Kelly and Read. I never said they were “terrorists”. 

For the rest I can’t be bothered mainly because your posts are full of ifs and buts and hypothesis on what Australia may do.  You ignore all the actual exmples I give.  Anyway interviews with the Bali bombers, their manifestos etc. have been aired here. 

Lastly I thought we were beginning to be genuinely curious and having a civilised debate.  It’s pointless if you are here only to mock and hurl abuses at the intellectual abilities of posters.  And then you crib when told about the superiority complex of Asians.

Madison says:

04:49pm | 14/08/09

Shama,

“Madsion, its well known that Irish political prisoners were transported to Australia. I can’t be bothered with digging up references but here is one.”

Convicts who commit crimes and are transported to Australia to do hard labour are not separatists!

“Please don’t put words in my mouth re Kelly and Read. I never said they were “terrorists”.”

HA! I knew you were going to say that Shama! You used the example of criminals in direct response to my comment on Australia welcoming Kadeer while China views her as a terrorist. Again, sorry for assuming the obvious- you and James would make a dream team!

The Australian is indeed slow to review comments plus they omit every second comment of mine on their articles. And there they are condemning censorship!

Madison says:

04:59pm | 14/08/09

Shama why do you need to go down that road again? Of late, I’ve done nothing but stay on topic and merely labeled some of the examples you raise during your arguments as irrelevant and impractical. I’m sorry if you feel I’ve mocked or abused you, it was not my intention. I was aiming to point out the errors in the rationale behind some of the examples you chose to use.

Shama says:

05:11pm | 14/08/09

You never bothered to read the link is all I can say.

Read and Kelly are examples that Australia is a society where people, regardless of their activities being anti-social, can be discussed and portrayed in various ways. I am sorry if your thick head can only understand the obvious.  I apologise that I cannot find a Ms. Kadeer of Australian nationality - because only with literal examples can you follow an argument.

You still haven’t said anything about my actual examples.  I assume that your knowledge of the world is limited.  Maybe instead of posting at The Australian you can read their World section.

Sam says:

05:21pm | 14/08/09

They’re definitely selective about publishing posts regardless whether they meet their guidelines or not. Most of mine took 12 hours to get on, and somehow that “Don” fellow’s post was always after me as if he’s the one doing the moderating. Leaving me to wait another 12 hours before my response could eclipse his. It’s not just censorship, it’s manipulation of opinions to acheive a predestined outcome (that’s what I call democracy anyway). I mean who needs to fix elections when the same foreign policies are adopted regardless who’s in power. Elections are only for who gets to look like they’re doing something on some trivial internal matter like whether to say “sorry” or not, or whether the tax payer is openly robbed with an obscene marginal tax rate or covertly pick pocketed with a GST on essential items. I’d like to see my government take my employer to task for not giving me a promotion/a performance review/or even a cpi adjustment for the past 3 years!!! Exploitation is happening to me right here right now, and we’re lecturing the Chinese about how they treat their people! Thank God it’s Friday, I’m out of puff, and it’s been a busy week surfing the net. Have a good one guys.

Li says:

05:39pm | 14/08/09

Sam and Madison, get a life. It seems that you are very wealthy as far as time is concerned. I mean if you could have given me the total amount of time you have spent on spewing ABSOLUTE rubbish, I repeat, ABSOLUTE rubbish, I could have used it much more productively, like trying to write out the square root of 2. I mean I’m sitting here absolutely marveled by your sheer ability to manufacture manure at the speed of light, LOL! You’re really some of the best internet trollers I’ve seen, hey you wanna go and try bringing down stormfront?

Li says:

06:16pm | 14/08/09

wow Sam, I really really wish more Chinese were like you. If people in China were more paranoid and inquisitive about the government like you were, we could even have a regime change, LOL! Zhong Guo Ren Min Jia Yo!

Madison says:

06:32pm | 14/08/09

Li you’re a tool with nothing constructive to say. If you think it’s rubbish don’t read it, don’t respond and get on with your miserable life.

Shama says:

10:02pm | 14/08/09

Li you’re so right I love you.

robbie says:

07:59am | 15/08/09

It’s interesting that Australias past wrong doings are mentioned in a bad light (towards the start of these comments) as a comparison to Chinese history and their current issues.  But there is no acknowledgment of any form of change in the way Australian Aboriginals and immigrants are treated by the government and the general population. 

Yet when it comes to the Chinese family history of one of the protagonists of this thread the attitude appears to be -it’s all good, China has changed - [But Australia hasn’t…]

————-”...even he will admit that the communist party of today has changed so dramatically from the days of old and that the steps they are taking now are positive and decisions they are making are sound.”——————-

This is just one example of the double standards apparent here in a lot of the dominant comments.

Shane from Melbourne says:

08:32am | 15/08/09

Internet blogging rule #1- never get into a “debate” with the chinese hypernationalists like Sam and Madison. Waste of time.