The Government will be hoping that the convoluted and dense reckoning of professor Ross Garnaut will counter the slick and glib one-liners of Tony Abbott.

It'll be fine. They'll love it. Yep, they'll love it. Photo: Ray Strange

The Opposition has successfully been telling the public that a “carbon tax” - or on occasion the “toxic tax” - will wreck household budgets already flattened by other cost-increasing factors.

The proposed carbon price has been depicted as a financial horror which would dwarf those already-punishing family expenses.

The Government has been silent on this apart from saying more than 50 per cent of revenue from a carbon price would go to those families to cover the cost rises caused by industries passing on their pollution penalties.

But it has been gagged from saying more because it has locked itself into negotiations with the Greens and independents on the final shape of a carbon emissions pricing scheme.

Garnaut isn’t gagged. Far from it. He likes having a chat and today packed some detail onto that skeletal promise of a big chunk of revenue going to families.

It would arrive in the form of billions of dollars worth of tax cuts and welfare increases, he said in a a report released at the National Press Club.

Ross Garnaut is an economist who has never pretended to be a climate expert, but who has accepted the advice of those who are tops in that field and have warned that the globe is getting dangerously hotter because of carbon emissions.

He probably has never claimed to be an exciting luncheon speaker. Today he told an opening anecdote which went on for roughly as long as it took for primeval vegetation to be compressed into coal.

The punchline was that Prime Minister Julia Gillard agree with him: “We’re against the extinction of the species.”

Having cleared that up, Garnaut used his speech to confront some of the arguments against action on carbon emissions by setting a price and after three to five years allowing the market to decide that price.

And he did so with his usual academic honesty. He sneered at any idea of a quick fix, but didn’t downplay the seriousness of the issue.

“The benefits of reducing damage from climate change will come later - many of them to later generations of Australians,” he told the National Press Club.

“In fact there will be more and more benefits for later and later generations.”

He took a shot at sectoral interests who opposed carbon pricing: “Parts of big business have taken on the role of spoiler.”

He took a club to the current debate: “There is no reason why carbon pricing should continue to be a matter of partisan political division in Australia.

“In much of the world - perhaps everywhere except Australia and the United States - concern for global warming is a conservative as much as a social democratic issue.”

And he took to those claiming our efforts would be pointless with total derision: “This is an argument that Australia is a pissant country.

“Well, I do not accept that Australia is a pissant country. All the evidence is against it. Australia matters.

“We matter even though our emissions are only 1.5 per cent of the world’s, just like the UK matters with its 1.7 per cent.”

More important for the Government, Garnaut laid out a process for compensating low and middle-income families for the prices pushed up by a carbon price. It might not be the final version, but it is likely to be very similar.

And the key was that some $6 billion would go to increasing family benefits and lowering taxes, with lots of argument and data to back up the proposal..

Even this Government, which has appeared hobbled on the issue it raised as critical to the nation - and its own fate - should be able to use that.

210 comments

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    • Tchom says:

      03:59pm | 31/05/11

      The government still needs to disclose what the tax is, where exactly the money will go. The huge amount sledging on both sides is pathetic and counter-productive. I guess this is really our own fault for voting in a minority government

    • AAAdam says:

      04:43pm | 31/05/11

      We’re getting the horse ahead of the cart. There is no empirical evidence of manmade climate change, yet they are planning to introduce a tax to “fix” it. My BS meter is already going off the charts!

      P.S. If you do have empirical evidence of manmade climate change, go claim the $10k prize. Then maybe we’ll talk about ways to fix it. Until it’s proven this is just another unproven doomsday prediction, accompanied by some high pressure sales techniques and celebrity endorsements, which the government are using to milk us of our money!

    • AAAdam says:

      04:46pm | 31/05/11

      Ooops, I meant we are getting the “cart head of the horse”. My bad raspberry

    • Sam says:

      04:56pm | 31/05/11

      Agreed Tchom.

      Without the details its really hard to judge what the outcomes are going to be.
      In the meantime all the name calling makes both sides of politics look pathetic.

    • Bruce says:

      05:21pm | 31/05/11

      Something I do not understand, What happens tp proposed re-imbursement funds to low and medium families when companies reduce their CO2 emmisions ? Isn’t that the objective of the tax ? You can almost guarantee the big companies are already working on alternatives to reduce their tax liabilities.

    • Old Bloke says:

      05:22pm | 31/05/11

      I just wish everyone stopped and thought about this instead of uncritically accepting the word of others!
      A new significant tax on industry that consumes energy (tell me of any significant ones that don’t) will have to be passed on or the business will eventually fail with resultant unemployment!
      If then consumers are protected with a subsidy (tax relief, grabts whatever it is a subsidy) what then is the whole point?
      A blunt instrument with doubtful outcomes!

    • Iain says:

      06:12pm | 31/05/11

      Note for AAAdam, you might be surprised to learn the $10k prize you are linking to is just plain ridiculous.  For example the 30,000 petition it refers was thoroughly debunked about two years ago http://www.desmogblog.com/30000-global-warming-petition-easily-debunked-propaganda and is so out of date. Instead of leaving in a state of denial, actually spend some time to look at facts.  If you don’t like the IPCC for whatever reason, look at raw weather data from BOM and NOAA where so many records were smashed in 2010 for temperature.

    • Neil Innes says:

      06:16pm | 31/05/11

      Look at the picture of Garnaut - looks like he has sat upon a large cucumber, Oh, the discomfort and look at the fake smile of Julia - Oh, Sheep, I hope this last gasp grab works - come on in spinner Garnaut! LOL.LOL.LOL.

    • AAAdam says:

      08:33pm | 31/05/11

      Iain, the $10k is real. The bet is real. I am willing to be swayed by empirical evidence. Do you have any? Or are you trying to sidetrack the argument?

      Anyway, how’s this for sidetracking. Ahhhh, the IPCC. Have you seen what their lead atmospheric scientist thinks about manmade climate change and the proposed carbon tax? Even he says its rubbish.

    • ZSRenn says:

      09:24pm | 31/05/11

      Whilst reading the germ report try and count how many
      times the word should or could appear.

      It’s Crazy!

      This could happen that should happen!

      It could It should.

      Are we going to really back our economy on 10,000 could or shoulds
      (Rough guess to hard to count)

      All this for 0.073% of global emissions.

      What a joke!

    • ZSRenn says:

      10:04pm | 31/05/11

      Ok I have finished reading it and figuring that this report was by an economist I would see a balance sheet somewhere but no just more shoulds and coulds!

    • AAAdam says:

      10:12pm | 31/05/11

      ZSRenn - That is an awesome gem to have found and it is what we’ve been saying all along!

    • ZSRenn says:

      10:35pm | 31/05/11

      there are plenty more triple A Check out this one!

      “A carbon price has some short-term negative effects on productivity growth and incomes”

      I wonder what he means by short-term because he doesn’t elaborate.

    • acotrel says:

      06:55am | 01/06/11

      I’ve got an idea where the money collected through the price on carbon should go.  Perhaps we should subsidise manufacturing industry in regional towns.  That would stimulate decentralisation, remove the pressure on citry infrastructure, and provide a nucleus for development of new energy technologies.  Companies like H J Heinze ( Girgarre)move offshore to better pastures where labour is cheaper, and easier to exploit.  The free market has failed us again!” We need positive government action to encourage businesses to stay here and reverse the trend. The price on carbon could be win-win for Australia?:

    • Patrick Kelly says:

      08:00am | 01/06/11

      ZSRenn@10:35

      “A carbon price has some short-term negative effects on productivity growth and incomes”

      I wonder what he means by short-term because he doesn’t elaborate.

      I’ll explain. The negative effect while short term is extremely fast acting and effective. After all modern economic activity is curtailed and we (those that are left) are living in the nouveaux middle ages on subsistence agriculture, the negative impacts will cease.  Touche. Objective achieved.

    • AAAdam says:

      08:08am | 01/06/11

      @ Actorel - “The free market has failed us again!”

      The free market may not be perfect, however, it is the most efficient means we have for allocating resources. What you are proposing (the iron fist of central control) is far less efficient than the invisible hand of the free market.

      @ ZSRenn - I agree once again. I looked at Iains link last night regarding the 30,000 scientist petition. All it really did was attempt to breakdown the types of scientists who had signed the petition. Far from debunking it, it just demonstrated 30,000 highly educated people, schooled in critical thinking, from a variety of scientific disciplines, think AGW is rubbish (so the left can’t keep painting sceptics as intellectual inferiors without any knowledge of science or continue saying “the science is settled”).

    • Joan says:

      08:10am | 01/06/11

      Funny how nobody except SBS last night news showed Garnaut use the word pissant in refernce to Australians and nobody has bothered to report his most vile comment . My message to Mr Garnaut and his big con, his message ... your all going to better off after I have guggled with the taxes, permits and chainof committees…  is I`d rather be a free, clear thinker than a Garnaut pissant.  Thank heavens for SBS ! Mr Garnaut outed .... what he really thinks ... and just showed how so up himself he is.

    • Sony B Goode says:

      08:42am | 01/06/11

      Acotrel never misses a beat to display his loathing of free markets he clearly prefers the lead set by the labor party: fascism.  Lie, cheat, backstab and do whatever it takes to get into and stay in power.

      The electorate is some inconvenient nuisance that must be hoodwinked every election and not allowed to vote on any major policy.

      Gillars is fascist in chief, the architect of the nation, the supreme being. All bow before her radiant omniscience.

    • Joan says:

      09:01am | 01/06/11

      The words from Garnaut `“I don’t accept that my country is a pissant country`. The classic sales pitch of a con-artist the message is - if you don’t buy what I have to sell you are a flawed character.  And all the news media missed this con trick. How pathetic.

    • Anubis says:

      09:08am | 01/06/11

      @ Acotrel - nice thoughts about where the money should go but the question is What money? If you listened to Professor Gumnut when he was interviewed last night he said 55% of money raised should go to low income earners (under $80k a year), 35% to subsidies for trade affected industries. This just leaves ten percent which is the legally binding tithe we have to submit to the IPCC/UN for redistribution to third world countries and tin-pot dictators. Leaves nothing for investment in industries, alternative energies etc. Certainly riules out Joolyas comment two days ago that the CArbon Tax “pot-o-money” could be applied to the building of roads, railways and infrastructure. This is actually going to cost us more than the tax raises. As shown above by Gumnut’s comments 100% is already allocated. He has also gone on record as stating that the scheme should be administered by not 1 but 3 Bureaucracies - where is the money for these coming from…...General Revenue or will they just apply an extra few percent Excise on petrol to cover this???

      Another Joolya scheme that is going to bleed the country dry.

    • Anubis says:

      09:08am | 01/06/11

      @ Acotrel - nice thoughts about where the money should go but the question is What money? If you listened to Professor Gumnut when he was interviewed last night he said 55% of money raised should go to low income earners (under $80k a year), 35% to subsidies for trade affected industries. This just leaves ten percent which is the legally binding tithe we have to submit to the IPCC/UN for redistribution to third world countries and tin-pot dictators. Leaves nothing for investment in industries, alternative energies etc. Certainly riules out Joolyas comment two days ago that the CArbon Tax “pot-o-money” could be applied to the building of roads, railways and infrastructure. This is actually going to cost us more than the tax raises. As shown above by Gumnut’s comments 100% is already allocated. He has also gone on record as stating that the scheme should be administered by not 1 but 3 Bureaucracies - where is the money for these coming from…...General Revenue or will they just apply an extra few percent Excise on petrol to cover this???

      Another Joolya scheme that is going to bleed the country dry.

    • Max Redlands says:

      04:19pm | 31/05/11

      Actually Mal I think it’s not only gone beyond the science it’s also gone beyond the economics of the matter. It seems to me the majority of the general public (of which I include myself as a member) are just over the whole thing on the basis it’s all a lot of BS.

      Even if the science is in (which is clearly the subject of debate) and even if the economic impact is sustainable no one has yet explained how and more specifically how much this measure is going to effect the environment and this Protean notion of AGW/Climate Change/whatever next.

      All based on OPINIONS of what MAY happen in the future.

      It just looks like a big money churn at best (hooray!! green jobs!! - lots more government bureaucrats to administer the churn) and at worst an underhanded attempt at wealth redistribution hiding behind a feigned concern for the environment.

    • persephone says:

      05:13pm | 31/05/11

      Well, wrong on all counts.

      The science is essentially settled - you’ll never get 100 per cent consensus on anything, but it’s near as - and how the measure is going to work has been explained exhaustively.

      If you’re too ignorant or stubborn to find the information and read it, don’t sit there and wonder why the world’s leaving you behind.

    • Matt says:

      05:54pm | 31/05/11

      Hi again persephone. Can you please list all the other countries with a carbon tax of $26/tonne or over. Then, take a subset of those countries that do not have any form of nuclear power generation and list that as well.

      Thanks.

    • Maree says:

      06:09pm | 31/05/11

      Max: Well said. However, in regards to wealth redistribution. It most probably will be limited, as large business seek to reduce their tax liabilities by either introducing new technology or moving their processing operations off shore. Any good business will do this. Therefore, churne of tax revenue has to reduce and reimbursements to low and middle income will have to reduce. This then ultimately achieves the desired outcome - reduction in CO2.  You do not have to believe me, just ask any good business analyst.

    • Unconvinced says:

      06:15pm | 31/05/11

      The science is settled is it? I think that depends on what evidence you put your faith in. There is a whole lot of evidence that points to a somewhat different conclusion to that which the Govt and others would like us to believe.

    • NicoleG says:

      06:17pm | 31/05/11

      Pers, if I see ‘The Science Is Settled’ one more freaking time, I’m going to scream. And for the record, it’s a bluddy TAX.

    • Max Redlands says:

      06:19pm | 31/05/11

      @ persephone

      Did you read what I said??

      I said even if the science is in (and for the sake of the argument I’ll give you that) I still maintain the general public is not convinced.(Witness the rather bizzare attempts by Cate & Co. to bring them around).

      And yes I know you have, ad infinitum, proffered your explanation of how the thing works and I understand the logic of that argumant but how do you account for the mooted “compensation” which will essentiallly negate the effect intended.

      Further I note you have continually failed to answer the question as to how much effect,  in quantifiable terms, these measures will have, particularly given any difference , on a global basis, will be insignificant.

      I am not “ignorant” as you so rudely suggest. Rather anyone who puts much stock in anything Flannery has to say is a fool.

      All I’ve seen of your contribution, apart from endlessly parrotting the received “wisdom” from a proponent’s point of view, is a failure to address any hard questions put to you.

    • luke says:

      07:03pm | 31/05/11

      Max, there is not much difference between either parties policies, both are aiming for 5% reduction on carbon emissions where you pay a tax and the other where you don’t pay a tax. The end result relating to the environment will be exactly the same.

      Considering our emissions are negligible in the grand scheme of things, I, like the vast majority of Australians do not want to pay a tax when both political parties are offering the same deal for the environment.

      The carbon tax will cost some jobs, I guess that is why compensation is needed.

      It is not really a wealth redistribution scheme but more of a money grab by the Gillard government, maybe they are desperate to return a budget surplus, something a labor government hasn’t achieved for 27 years.

    • persephone says:

      07:30pm | 31/05/11

      Nicole

      actually, I think that’s the first time I’ve used the phrase….for much the same reasons…

      Max

      if you had read as much of my stuff as you say you have, you’d know I don’t have much time for Flannery.

      I’ll point out when he’s been taken out of context, but I don’t cite him as any kind of authority (because he isn’t).

      And I have answered the question - a question which establishes at the start how little the poser understands the issue - of targets.

      luke

      given that the government isn’t keeping a cent of the money, how can it be a money grab?

    • Max Redlands says:

      07:32pm | 31/05/11

      and then you factor in the people’s reaction to the policy back flip that started the whole thing.

      Politically it is a disaster area .

    • Mouse says:

      08:14pm | 31/05/11

      OMG Max “All I’ve seen of your contribution, apart from endlessly parrotting the received “wisdom” from a proponent’s point of view, is a failure to address any hard questions put to you.”
      Persephone IS gillard!!

    • dementer says:

      08:44pm | 31/05/11

      pers you say it quite alot actually.

      24th May ,25th May and today

    • luke says:

      08:47pm | 31/05/11

      persephone, it is a money grab even if the Gillard government is not going to keep a cent. They’re raising taxes to fund their promises of compensation to a very small percentage of the population and give the rest to big business in the green industry.

      Under the coalitions plan there is no tax, therefore no money grab and with the same target of a 5% reduction in greenhouse emissions.

      I shudder to think how many unscrupulous green entrepreneurs are going to plunder and waste the revenue of taxpayers monies the Gillard government is collecting. Remember the budget blowouts from the insulation scheme and school halls fiascos?

    • NicoleG says:

      09:33pm | 31/05/11

      Jesus Christ Mouse. Don’t say that! I disagree with Pers all the time, but I still like her lots. She’s not Gillard! If I’m wrong, feel free to come and beat me!

    • persephone says:

      09:45pm | 31/05/11

      luke

      er, the Direct Action plan is funded from taxpayers’ money.

      For that to happen, there has to be a tax somewhere along the line.

      If they’re spending money on DA, that means that they’re taking more tax than they would need if they weren’t.

      It’s just as much of a tax as a carbon price is.

      Demeter

      I know, you’d think they’ve have understood it by now!

      But still the same silly questions are being asked….

      Nicole

      Thanks, although being mistaken for the PM is OK with me!

    • Max Redlands says:

      09:48pm | 31/05/11

      @ Persophone

      ” - a question which establishes at the start how little the poser understands the issue - of targets”

      again with the insults

      i am a poster not a poser (or was that a typo?)

      It seems you don’t even understand the basis of my position. It is not about the carbon tax per se. I am talking about the electorate’s response to the government’s attempt to make the policy law.

      My view is they’re not buying it for a whole host of reasons. As i said i count myself as one of them.

    • Mouse says:

      10:25pm | 31/05/11

      Sorry Nic,  couldn’t resist that one!  lol ;o)

    • Anubis says:

      09:22am | 01/06/11

      @Perse-phony - If the science is settled then why are ALL the reoports littered with might, may, possibly contribute, could. But nowhere will you find definitely, will result in or any other positive statements. It is all guesswork based on faulty computer modelling. Tell me - just how will did the modelling work when they ran it over the past 500 years ???  Didn’t really come close to what actually happened in that time frame. The whiole “science is settled” movement is crap, you know it, we know it but you ridiculous lefties refuse to acknowledge it. This pissant (to use a Prof Gumnut phrase) Government is hell bent on tearing the economy apart on multiple if’s, might. could’s, maybes with nothing definite or positive to go on. Whether the science is settled or not is not the real current argument - the current argument is that this CArbon (Dioxide) Tax or Price on Carbon as you lefties call it will do nothing to affect climate variability (even Guru Flim Flam acknowledges this) and is everything about wealth redistribution (confirmed by a Labor MP on QA the other night) and satisfying the Green’s urge to send us back to an agrarian lifestyle consisting of peasant farmers and the Labor/Green overlords. For months you have been trying to defend the indefensible. Your arguments are shot down every time yet you persist. Perssephone it is you, and people like you, that have made the Labor Party and the Greens about as palatable as a mouth full of fire ants. You would do us all a favour if you would pack your propaganda kit away and just go away you annoying little troll

    • Matt says:

      09:29am | 01/06/11

      Still waiting for an answer, persephone. Unless the answer is “zero”?

    • luke says:

      11:50am | 01/06/11

      persephone, unlike ALP governments, the coalition can fund programs through good fiscal management. They can easily fund the DA by not being anywhere near as incompetent as Labor.

      Therefore, no new tax grab is needed, no spending more than necessary.

    • Alarm Clock says:

      12:22pm | 01/06/11

      luke
      The coalition plan is for a great big new tax (16 billion dollars / year).

      Wake up to yourself mate.

    • Helen says:

      04:19pm | 31/05/11

      Oh poor Cate’s being gagged is she? Nevermind that she’s expressing her views in nationally broacast high-rotation ads that she isn’t even paying for, somehow, according to Farr she’s being “gagged” because a few people disagee with her.

      Get that - she’s entered one of the hottest political debates in the country, not unexpectedly shes copped a little criticism, and Farr says she’s been gagged. This isn’t true in any sense and is a completely indefensilbe statement.

      Maybe Lindsay Tanner has a point about the media.

    • sam says:

      05:21pm | 31/05/11

      At work at the moment we have people from the USA branch visit our humble little office.
      They were asking why Cate is being criticised for voicing her opinion, as celebs endorse political ideas all the time back home.
      My boss just said to them ‘that shit don’t fly here’.

    • luke says:

      04:20pm | 31/05/11

      A lot of assumptions from Garnaut, he has one fine crystal ball to be able to predict such findings. At least he is honest about their being no quick fix and no benefit in the immediate future.

      It is still hard to fathom how paying a tax is going to put more money in your pocket. Let’s increase the gst while we are at it and put even more money into our pockets.
      Nevermind the loss of employment for some families, I guess that is where the compensation will kick in, people may lose their homes but at least they will get a pittance for their inconvenience.

      “We’re against the extinction of the species.” nothing like a good scare campaign to get people listening. Is he saying the carbon tax is our saviour?

    • john says:

      04:22pm | 31/05/11

      Clearly the government is in control of the carbon price/tax, it knows what is required, they have instructed us to say yes to it and we should trust them with this. They have furnished their argument for the tax with professors and famous people we all like so we can take the bait on the end of the hook. We will all be compensated and everyone will live happily ever after.  smile

      All sunshine, rainbows and lollypops, nothing to worry about.

    • CiNiC says:

      11:19pm | 31/05/11

      Well said.
      “move along, nothing to see here”
      Just a point i would like to bring up,
      Does anyone actually think that the “TAX” money will stay here?
      There is a nice big bank thats already got dibs on it. Just incase you thought it would benefit us…
      Its called the “WORLD BANK”.
      Check it out . See for yourself wink
      N.W.O.  Yippee….  HERE WE ARE….

    • Thomas Anderson says:

      04:29pm | 31/05/11

      Tell ya where the money will go. Salaries of the bureaucrats who will administer the tax. Maybe some will reach the bottom of the food chain, and a couple of trees will be planted. Maybe.

    • ZSRenn says:

      04:31pm | 31/05/11

      Hang on a minute Mal!

      Garnaut is calling for a $40 / tonne tax and is using figures gained from treehugger.com rather than the CSIRO figures for the amount of Carbon that is emitted by Australia. 

      Only if he gets his $40/ tonne tax over the line will the government be able to deliver the benefits he is squawking

      He is calling for 3 levels of bureaucracy to manage the Carbon tax and how much does that level of maintenance cost.

      This $40/ tonne Carbon Tax adds about $2500 / household to the annual bill where $6,000,000,000 is only about $1200 / household return in benefits.

      This is a $1300 /annum / household to save 0.073% of global emissions.

    • Crap filter says:

      05:23pm | 31/05/11

      That’s not right.

      The final report recommends that Australia’s initial carbon price be in the range of $20 to $30.  “The mid-point of this range would be appropriate in the absence of compelling reasons to move away from it,” said Professor Garnaut. Today.

      The Climate Change Committee is still weighing up the final recommendation.

    • Ben81 says:

      06:08pm | 31/05/11

      I think you’re both mixing up who said what a bit but what it comes down to is that coal power production, which is responsible for about 1/3 of our emissions, will still remain the cheapest option unless the price moves past $40 a tonne according to research by Deloittes commissioned by the government.
      And even then, the only next viable alternative will be gas power before you start looking at the massive cost of making renewables economically viable alternatives.
      They still won’t be viable for baseload power anyway, but that’s another story.

      The main concern is of course that if this should actually happen these industries will still have to be propped up somehow after the biggest polluters are gone, and that the hit to our cost of living will be completely unjustified given the miniscule impact we’ll have on reducing the worlds emissions.

    • Crap Filter says:

      06:38pm | 31/05/11

      Nup. My quote? From the Garnaut Press Release, today’s date.

    • Ben81 says:

      10:24pm | 31/05/11

      I just included you in that Crap filter because you went to correct the guy without saying Garnaut’s advice and the Deloitte report are two different things, the latter being where the $40 figure comes from.  To me it seems more obvious to correct the source of the $40 figure than to suggest it’s wrong.

    • Crap filter says:

      07:55am | 01/06/11

      You included me for your own reasons, knowing full well I was right.

      ZSRs claim was on Garnaut, only. Garnaut, whose report is the sole topic of the article.

      You tried, wrongly,  to rope me in to ZSRs error, for your own reasons, but with the effect of spreading confusion about the Garnaut price recommendation, which I am happy to repeat.

      “The final report recommends that Australia’s initial carbon price be in the range of $20 to $30.  “The mid-point of this range would be appropriate in the absence of compelling reasons to move away from it,” said Professor Garnaut. “

      His examples apply $26 (per tonne CO2-equivalent).

      Mixed up? Clear as a bell.

    • ZSRenn says:

      09:19am | 01/06/11

      @ Crap Filter It doesn’t matter if Garnaut says it’s going to be $40/ tonne or $20/ tonne. He has said both and many other figures as well and it seems he doesn’t have a clue.

      At the end of the day the Garnaut report yeasterday suggested that $11.5 Billion would be collected and suggested a refund to the tax payer of $6 Billion.

      That works out at a shortfall of $1100 / household

      +Any fuel tax that will be added.
      +Any handing down of prices from Industry.

      It is still too much to save 0.073% of Global emissions

    • Ben81 says:

      12:47pm | 01/06/11

      “You included me for your own reasons, knowing full well I was right. “
      Of course, that’s Garnaut’s report.  All I said was that it’s more obvious to correct the source of the $40 figure which you can’t possibly have missed hearing about and would obviously avoid for your own reasons.

    • Crap filter says:

      03:33pm | 01/06/11

      Not at all.

      Here’s your own words: “I think you’re both mixing up who said what”

      No, not so. You want to stick $40 tonne to the board, but at the end of the day, the artcle is on Garnaut, the ZSR blunder was about Garnaut, and I have correctly quoted Garnaut.

      Pick any other number you like for whatever reason you like, but Garnaut said what he said.

      So now you’d like to try and blame me for your mistakes and for ZSRs? Yeah right, sure. Uh huh. Bull.

    • Ben81 says:

      07:24pm | 01/06/11

      Try “Actually that $40 figure comes from the Deloitte report not the Garnaut one”
      Easier to say that than pretend the $40 figure doesn’t exist, the one that is required to actually effect our carbon dioxide emissions (is that still even what this tax is about?) which is what ZSRenn was talking about.
      If me saying that pointing out the plainly obvious would be easier upsets you then too bad, deal with it.

    • Crap Filter says:

      08:14pm | 01/06/11

      Upset, eh. Haw. The barest flicker of remaining interest in this part of the thread? Your tired old “let’s try and put words in the other guy’s mouth” trick. Uh huh. Nup. Won’t wash.

      Garnaut’s press release:
      The final report recommends that Australia’s initial carbon price be in the range of $20 to $30.  “The mid-point of this range would be appropriate in the absence of compelling reasons to move away from it,” said Professor Garnaut.

      That doesn’t suit you because you want to make some different point.  So what. However hard you try to wriggle out of it, that’s the fact, its what Garnaut recommends and it’s what I said. 

      You and ZSREnn keep on trying to spin it another way, but so what. You’re wrong, however much you keep a-spinning.

      You can try and re-write what you both said, but ist up there above, and you can’t rub it out. Tough.

      I maybe bored shitless by your sly loaded nonsense, sunshine, but I’m not going to roll over for it, today, tomorrow or next week. Got that?

    • Ben81 says:

      11:12pm | 01/06/11

      Yep, that’s what Garnaut said.  ZSRenn was wrong, you were right and can feel all warm and fuzzy about being right on the internet.
      All I said is that it would be pretty damn obvious to point out that the $40 figure came from another report and not mentioning that as if it’s just a figure pulled out of the air makes it look like you didn’t realise either, and that’s why I included you in saying things were mixed up, whoopty shit.  I thought my first explanation would have settled it, but there you go.
      Go ahead and write a short essay if it makes you feel better about the situation, buhbye

    • Crap Filter says:

      03:43pm | 02/06/11

      Ben 81 tried over and over to rewrite what I said, what the OP said, and even what he said. Loaded up with sly digs about *my* supposed feelings, motives, blah blah. All to keep another figure from another source out on the table. Devious? Not half.

      But what Garnaut recommended is there in black and white, full stop.

      “Australia’s initial carbon price be in the range of $20 to $30. The mid-point of this range would be appropriate in the absence of compelling reasons to move away from it”

    • John says:

      04:31pm | 31/05/11

      The carbon tax is happening - my biggest concern is all the talk lately of how low (in particular) and middle income earners will be “better off”.

      This is a joke.  I can understand fair compensation… but using the environment as an excuse to redistribute wealth is just another example of this government’s deceit and attempted populism.

      I’m a middle income earner, but I’m no communist.  People should NOT be profiting from this.  Julia and Co seem happy to tell people they will be.

      They care little about the environment and more about their own power.

    • Dementer says:

      04:32pm | 31/05/11

      Hes doesnt have to worry about a carbon prices becuase his mining company isnt based in Australia.

    • Old Bloke says:

      05:18pm | 31/05/11

      The fact that his mining comapny has been one of the worst polluters in New Guinea seas for years is OK.  It is that terrible clear gas we have to worry about.

    • dementer says:

      08:48pm | 31/05/11

      only 400 years to get the river back to the original state.

      Ahhh Oktedi Mine posioning kids for over 20 years

      It pretty much a blank cheque for him higher every other miner has to pay better performer his mine will be.

      he is no fool

    • Occam's Blunt Razor says:

      04:43pm | 31/05/11

      No, despite the Professor wishing it so, Australia is insignificant.

      One cannot just assume that China and the US of A will act to reduce their emmissions.  China is increasing at an increasing rate.

    • Michael says:

      04:43pm | 31/05/11

      Ultimately this is an additional GST to be paid by the consumer.  It is unlikely if they are a middle to high income earner that they will receive sufficient “compensation”.  What will it cost?  Since its supported by Dr Hewson, can he please explain what the carbon tax will be on a birthday cake.

    • Que says:

      04:45pm | 31/05/11

      Can we please get rid of Malcolm Farr? He is the Malcolm Fraser of journalism. Go a hug someone else’s tree.

      This whole carbon dioxide tax is rediculous. The human condition is truly a weird one.

    • Glen says:

      04:51pm | 31/05/11

      Am I the only person in this country that is VERY concerned how the frig a small business is meant to measure and pay this tax? Do the accountants and law experts even know? What about the ATO?

      If I were a retailer do I have to calc my carbon usage in product and delivery? If I am a beef farmer do I measure the carbon cost per kilo of cow or how much it breaths out? Oh no surely the faultless and skilled Labor Government is not going to attempt a table of carbon activities for each industry… And do I pay this on my BAS? Do I divide by 11? By 9? Multiply by 1.2342352? I mean WTF?

      Jesus oh god we are ALL heading for disaster; do these government people even realise small businesses employ people?

      Labor is at the helm of a vast ship called Australia approaching the coast on a stormy night and The Greens have deliberately made the lighthouse carbon neutral…

      Don’t blame me. I voted for Tony Abbott.

    • Panic in the farmyard says:

      05:09pm | 31/05/11

      Good god
      We’ll all be ruined, ruined I tells ya.

      The sky is falling - The sky is falling, everyone back in the henhouse.

    • Glen says:

      05:24pm | 31/05/11

      Oh don’t worry Panic, as a business person I have no intention of lowering my lifestyle (or heating for that matter). I am sure in your leftist zeal you will have no problem paying MY carbon tax for ME when I and every other company SLUG you with a price rise.

    • josh says:

      05:25pm | 31/05/11

      From the article: The punchline was that Prime Minister Julia Gillard agree with him: “We’re against the extinction of the species.”

      Sorry what was that about the sky falling again?

    • Iain says:

      05:29pm | 31/05/11

      Glen you need to do some reading.  You will not cop a carbon tax, it’s a price on pollution put on the big polluters like power companies and mining companies, nothing will change in the way you do business - there may be some price increases but certainly no increased paperwork.  Tony Abbott’s Direct Action plan is a cost on taxpayers though and Greg Hunt has already stated a price at $15 a tonne which all taxpayers will cop.

    • Crap Filter says:

      05:36pm | 31/05/11

      You won’t and you don’t.

      There’s NO direct tax on anyone except some of the biggest businesses - about 1,000 in all.

      The Libs have been trying to pretend it is, but they’re wrong.

    • Glen says:

      05:46pm | 31/05/11

      Oh my poor deluded Iain you don’t honestly believe Bobby, Milne, Hanson-Young and co are content with 26/tonne on utilities? Do you seriously?

      I don’t think even Green policy makes would believe that.

      They won’t stop there!!!

    • Panic in the farmyard says:

      05:53pm | 31/05/11

      Crap Filter,
      Don’t confuse Glen, he’s a F&*king farmer.

      Facts are irrelevant.

      Runs around with Glen in ever diminishing circles
      The sky is falling, the sky is falling.

    • persephone says:

      05:56pm | 31/05/11

      You won’t be paying the tax, so you don’t have to worry about those calculations.

      The big emitters - and who they are wouldn’t be hard to calculate - will be charged according to their emissions. (Basically, if you’re going to be paying the tax directly, you’d already know that).

      You will see some prices go up, but you’re not being expected to collect the tax at all.

      However, there will be an incentive for you as a business to buy lower emission products - because they’ll be cheaper.

      Although I respect your concerns, it is this kind of ignorance about the way carbon pricing operates which means that, when it’s introduced, a lot of people will wonder why they were so concerned.

    • Glen says:

      06:04pm | 31/05/11

      Panic hates farmers - everybody what further proof do you need that The Left hates Australia?

    • Panic in the farmyard says:

      06:33pm | 31/05/11

      Glen
      I am, you are, we are ... go on, you know the rest.

      I don’t hate farmers, I hate ignorant conservatives who spread division and hate by repetitive lies.

    • persephone says:

      07:36pm | 31/05/11

      Quite a bit more, Glen, as I doubt Panic represents the whole of the Left or that farmers represent all Australians.

    • Crap Filter says:

      07:48pm | 31/05/11

      Uh huh. Right. So all those questions were fakes, all along.

      Just like Abbott in Question time today, eh.

      Funny that.

    • libertarian vegetarian says:

      08:10pm | 31/05/11

      Do you people really believe the crap you write, even a bit???

      Persephone “However, there will be an incentive for you as a business to buy lower emission products - because they’ll be cheaper.”
      Um no, pretty much all the cheaper products already come from China, how do you think taxing Aussie manufactureres more will make things cheaper???

      This tax will effect every single buusiness. Whether it means your electricity bill goes up or the cost of your raw materials or the fact that your customers will either a. have less money to spend or b. choose the cheaper overseas import you cant compete against.

      Like Glen, I see the day that business will end up having to collect this revenue. We are already unpaid revenue collectors to a huge degree, we don’t need any more.

    • persephone says:

      10:02pm | 31/05/11

      lv

      talking about writing crap….

      Look, it’s quite simple.

      Companies which use high emission sources of power will charge higher prices for their products than companies which don’t.

      So you, as a consumer, will tend to buy the products from the company which charges you less.

      To compete, the other company will have to find ways of cutting their costs to lower prices, and the most obvious way of doing this would be to reduce their emissions.

      That’s basic market forces at work.

      However, suppose you decide you’re not going to; you’re going to accept the higher price.

      That means the company continues to pay a high price for carbon, which means there is money available to develop cleaner energy sources.

    • Ben81 says:

      10:45pm | 31/05/11

      pers “So you, as a consumer, will tend to buy the products from the company which charges you less. “
      Yep, and that more expensive product will be the Australian product, and the consumers of our products are here and all over the world.  All for no impact on climate change and a negligible impact on world emissions.

      “To compete, the other company will have to find ways of cutting their costs to lower prices, and the most obvious way of doing this would be to reduce their emissions.

      That’s basic market forces at work.”

      Or, just shift production to where it’s cheaper.  That’s basic market forces at work.

    • martinX says:

      11:39pm | 31/05/11

      Persephone, the Carbon Tax is being introduced to encourage low emission power generation technology. It does this by making electricity generated by coal etc more expensive than that generated by solar, wind, etc.

      Since solar, wind etc generated power is about 6 times more expensive than coal generated power (we have no idea how lucky we are right now), all products that rise in price because of a carbon tax will stay high in price. Even if the producers of those products switch to use low emission power, that power will still be more expensive than untaxed coal can ever be and so long as those products are made in Australia they will never be “cheap” again, just cheaper those made using taxed, coal-powered technology.

      The average multinational is already looking at offshoring production. The average locally-based manufacturer is going to be screwed.

    • Gregg says:

      07:41am | 01/06/11

      Oh persey,
      If it was going to be so simple!
      ” talking about writing crap….

      Look, it’s quite simple.

      Companies which use high emission sources of power will charge higher prices for their products than companies which don’t.

      So you, as a consumer, will tend to buy the products from the company which charges you less.

      To compete, the other company will have to find ways of cutting their costs to lower prices, and the most obvious way of doing this would be to reduce their emissions.

      That’s basic market forces at work.

      However, suppose you decide you’re not going to; you’re going to accept the higher price.

      That means the company continues to pay a high price for carbon, which means there is money available to develop cleaner energy sources. “

      First of all, there’re hardly going to be a heap of low emission power alternatives about that manufacturers can choose from.
      Secondly, what low emission power is about is already more expensive and could even remain so with a carbon tax on coal/gas fired PSs.

      The way the market forces work is people and organisations sure look to see where they can get the cheapest reliable product/service from and with plenty of manufacturers having to pay more for power, more sourcing from abroad is quite likely.

      Now, even if your Utopic situation could arise and high emission units are eventually shut down so they are not producing carbon, what do you reckon that will do for the Tax?
      Huh!, you grunt.

      It’s as simple as no Carbon, No Tax and following simple Simon
      No Tax, and so where will the compensation come from?

      And really, what cleaner energy sources do you reckon are really feasible for base load power for industries to be competitive with coal fired PSs abroad where labor costs are far far cheaper anyway.
      There’ll certainly be less Tax $$$$ available for development!

      Do think it through with a tad realism Perse.

    • Anubis says:

      09:40am | 01/06/11

      You will not have to calculate it. The Carbon Tax is being levied (so the Gub’ment tells us) on only the 1000 top polluters. Unless your small business is in the top 1000 dirty, dirty companies you won’t have to calculate a thing, except maybe how much the flow on prices are going to destroy your financial viability.

    • Coop says:

      04:34pm | 01/06/11

      I see… government intervention results in “basic market forces at work”. Good one

    • loulou says:

      04:51pm | 31/05/11

      Is Garnaut the weird-looking man with Her Slyness?

    • Bris Jack says:

      04:52pm | 31/05/11

      Nobody seems to include the money that was promised to 3rd world countries in the carbon tax budget or am I mistaken?.

    • mel says:

      05:12pm | 31/05/11

      You aren’t mistaken

    • Joel B1 says:

      04:52pm | 31/05/11

      Well, at least now we know the magical tax CO2 is based on $26/tonne.

      And it is magical. It takes from some and gives to others and every-one is soooo happy they vote Gillard in as first Oz President for life.

      Sure, that’s a fantasy, But this sleight of an ex-socialists hand trick is set to become a very uncomfortable reality. Unless you’ve done a “course in climate” and have a spare $53,000,000.00 in the bank.

      And talk about claiming the moral high-ground “We’re against the extinction of the species.”!

      Did our fathers and mothers and their fathers and mothers work so hard that we should be fooled by this deceitful and prestigious minority government led by PM Gillard?

      Finally, well done Farr, no surprises here.

    • Vaunted says:

      04:55pm | 31/05/11

      This circus has gone on long enough. In my 35 years as a voter I’ve never seen so much open disgust and contempt for an Australian PM and government. Julia Gillard has to go.

    • RyaN says:

      04:57pm | 31/05/11

      Oh here we go, another smug, cashed up lefty tosser telling us that we should accept more taxes that will achieve absolutely nothing other than to fund their taxpayer junkets, massive pay increases and superannuation.
      Oh goodie I can’t wait to hear them be defended by their same smug lefty journalists. Let them eat cake hey Mal, let them eat cake. I am sure you will spit on us when we are in the streets begging for some food after this punitive carbon tax destroys families throughout Australia.

    • wrightio says:

      04:57pm | 31/05/11

      hmm.. who do i believe? do i believe a bureaucratic economist or do i believe those who have the necessary credentials to tell us the truth of the whole sorry mess? People such as Dr David Evans (incidentally a former alarmist, now a skeptic based on all the evidence) and Dr Bob Carter?
      The choice is easy really..
      Carbon tax.. based on lies Juliar.

    • Trusted spruikers says:

      05:11pm | 31/05/11

      When in doubt, go with the dolt from the sun herald. Or the parrot if the dolt is out at a stolen generation / holocaust denier rally.

    • Hunter says:

      04:59pm | 31/05/11

      How will the compensation work? I don’t receive welfare benefits and income is too low to pay tax so how will I be compensated to meet the increased cost of living?

    • Sony B Goode says:

      05:36pm | 31/05/11

      good luck with that.

    • persephone says:

      06:01pm | 31/05/11

      Er, what?

      Your income is too low to pay tax - so it’d have to be about $6k, allowing you to do a few deductions - and you don’t receive benefits?

      You seriously expect us to beleive you’re living on $120 a week?

      I’d get myself along to Centrelink as soon as possible, if I were you.

    • Eva says:

      07:03pm | 31/05/11

      Hunter,

      I am in the same position. One of the people who really needed the $900 handout but never got it because as one of the non centrelink poor who gets all their tax returned we simply fall through the cracks.

    • RyaN says:

      09:44pm | 31/05/11

      @Hunter: it won’t, what is clear is that this compensation line is as reliable as this line “there will be no carbon tax under a government I lead”.
      Fact is this government just cannot be trusted.

    • Matt says:

      09:49am | 01/06/11

      Big fail there persephone. An individual can earn $16,000 without paying tax… + $3,333 if they are a mature aged worker… if they are over 60 and drawing a superannuation pension, it is $48,158. Senior Australian eligible for the SATO can earn up to $30,685 for singles, or $26,680 for each member of a couple.

      Or do you want me to get the big crayons out for you, perse? Otherwise, feel free to call a guy you don’t know from a bar of soap a liar.

    • Tator says:

      01:20pm | 01/06/11

      Persephone,
      try looking at things like the Low Income Tax Offset where your tax free threshold is adjusted with a tax rebate of up to $1500 when you earn less than $30k and the Senior Australian Tax Offsett

    • Michael says:

      02:14pm | 01/06/11

      @Persephone,

      you should take a break you have had your arse handed to you every day for quite some time now, caught out lying, protesting that you don’t misrepresent people when two posts later there is the proof right before our eyes.

      Seriously i like to read your posts but you are really hurting any credibility you ever had.

      You also keep referring to reports and science that are still being hotly debated as settled.

      Did you watch Insight last night? the Enviro science guy was called for overstating temperature fluctuation in greenland he was saying “several degrees” when it’s 1.5 or so

      Just because you believe doesn’t mean you can all lie to get your bullshit past the post

    • lift the standard says:

      05:07pm | 31/05/11

      What i dont get about this debate is how quickly the opposition has turned a tax on some industries as a tax on every australian, i understand that this is most likely to be passed on to us but equally the oppositions ‘direct action’ policy where the government pays considerable dollars to industry to help them offset cost of carbon emissions have to come from somewhere, like an increase in taxes or a decreease in services. both are indirect and both will have an impact on every australian. so shouldn’t the debate be about which is the better scheme to help make a positive change to our environment long term, socially and economically? our level of debate stands in stark contrast to recent announcement in Germany and UK. We need the opposition to stop playing both sides, either they believe in human induced climate change and then discuss the merits of their scheme and how it will return better environment, social and economic for australians or they dont and just debate the science of client change, stop this ‘nudge nudge wink wink sort of do sort of dont attitude’.

    • Glen says:

      05:09pm | 31/05/11

      $26/tonne and wealth redistribution for the mass of Labor voters. Good-bye mining boom, hello Great Depression Mark II. Lucky Country no more.

      Well at least there will be some job openings at the new Department of the NKVD.

      I think I am going to cry. Stupid stupid people.

    • persephone says:

      06:05pm | 31/05/11

      Mining companies have known that a carbon price was coming in Australia since at least 2007.

      Hasn’t stopped them investing, and when they identify present and future threats to their business in Australia in reports to their shareholders, they don’t mention a carbon price (or a mining tax), but things like the high Australian dollar.

    • gytr says:

      08:16pm | 31/05/11

      Persephone as I explained before to you in another article: Any expenditure on capital in mining/mining exploration/mining related construction is a tax write off.

      Any asset can be moth balled.

      Any increase in the cost to market makes assets more marginal and overseas assets (such as in oh, say Canada, Tanzania, Russia or the US or any of the other african nations who won’t be doing shit about carbon dioxide pricing because they use the excuse China isn’t doing shit about carbon dioxide pricing) means OUR SHIT GETS SHUT DOWN

      You seriously piss me off. You continually spew bullshit rhetoric straight from the political pamphlets.

      YOU AND YOUR GODS WILL COST ME MY JOB!

      So get out in the real world and WORK for a living instead of accepting cash handouts for bullshit rhetoric.

    • persephone says:

      10:07pm | 31/05/11

      gytr

      Well, isn’t it strange that the mining companies don’t say anything in their literature, then!

      Doesn’t that mean they’re misleading their shareholders, by not identifying a carbon price as a threat? They’re certainly willing to blame the dollar—why not pricing carbon?

      The reason is that they’ve known it’s inevitable for some time, and they’ve factored that into their calculations and worked out that the investment is still worth it.

      Oh -

      I do work for a living, and not here.

      I’m always interested that people think I’m paid to do this - can only assume it’s the quality of my work!

    • gytr says:

      08:05am | 01/06/11

      You’re employed by a government organisation aren’t you? An educator by some of the posts you’ve thrown up?

      If so, I repeat, “get out in the real world and WORK for a living instead of accepting cash handouts for bullshit rhetoric”

      Your industry is protected.

      The majority of other industries aren’t.

    • Joan says:

      05:09pm | 31/05/11

      The Uk goes were Australian politicians fear to tread—-nuclear.  UK already has Nuclear power and going for more as it goes to a Carbon Tax. UK Cameron smart guy, smart enough to secure base load unlike Juliar, Garnaut and Combet with only playing and fiddling with taxes on their mind, and paying bugger all to base load . Watch for jobs going off shore, and house price melt down as jobless can’t pay mortgages or rent

    • Crap Filter says:

      05:26pm | 31/05/11

      Not quite. They’re looking to off-shore wind-power, big time. They’ve said so.

    • Joan says:

      07:49pm | 31/05/11

      Yeah they are looking to nuclear big time too…. I heard and saw Cameron’s guy interviewed… they leaving nothing to chance and pinning all nation hopes on just a tax , they have an all encompassing plan not just one big Carbon Tax on everything

    • ZSRenn says:

      04:12pm | 01/06/11

      @ Shit for Brains

      Wind power is not and never will be sufficient for a base power source.

      Apart from nuclear there is no other base power source other than coal at the moment unless you want to spend a quadrillion dollars on yet unproven tools.

      Perhaps you need to understand what you are talking about before you start filtering crap because more is coming out of the filter than is going in.

    • Crap Filter says:

      11:02pm | 01/06/11

      Now let’s see, what was that the UK people were saying…ah yes.

      “Offshore wind.
      Given the vast UK resource, this is a valuable option for power sector decarbonisation. Deployment in the 2020s could play a significant role in power decarbonisation; the appropriate scale will depend on cost reductions achieved in the period to 2020 and the pace of development and deployment of other technologies. We will consider offshore wind in detail in our renewable energy review, to be published in Spring 2011.”

      “The path through the 2020s: challenges decarbonising the power sector
      There is a very good opportunity for power sector decarbonisation through the 2020s. This comes from the profile of prospective plant closure and therefore the need for investment in at least 27 GW new capacity between 2021 and 2030 (Figure 6.7), with additional investment required where existing plant is operated at lower load factors or retires early, and to meet demand growth.”

      “The scenario includes 23 GW new wind capacity and 4 GW of new non-wind renewables (on a nameplate basis), and four CCS demonstration plants by 2020, with three new nuclear plants by 2022.
      • This would result in a total of around 45 GW (approximately 25 GW when wind is adjusted for its lower annual availability3) of low-carbon plant on the system in 2020 after allowing for closure of existing nuclear plant in the 2010s.”
      http://www.theccc.org.uk/reports/fourth-carbon-budget

      23GW by offshore wind, of 27GW new capacity required. But what would they know, eh.

    • Harquebus says:

      02:22pm | 02/06/11

      And tell ‘em to get off the Flash.

    • Crap filter says:

      05:10pm | 31/05/11

      Looks to me like this last couple of days will be seen as the turning of the tide in this debate, when we look back in a year or two.

      There’s the moment when Cate Blanchett got called a whore by some dill just for speaking up. And The Punch was silly enough to let it through.

      Then there’s Question Time today. The Liberals silly enough to try dirty tricks, taking tiny tiny snippets out of Garnaut. But the whole thing’s there for anyone to see!

      There’s plenty of good decent people on both sides of politics. They don’t like dirty tricks. They don’t like filthy insults.

      Let the turning tide flush that crap away.

    • Joel B1 says:

      05:22pm | 31/05/11

      @Crap Filter,

      “the turning of the tide in this debate”

      What debate?

      The one based on “No Carbon tax”? The one where we don’t get to vote, the one where Gillard is elected on a plain faced straight-up lie?

      If you want to live in a socialist country bugger off some-where else mate.

    • Ben81 says:

      05:33pm | 31/05/11

      The tide turned after Julia Gillard told us during the election campaign that no government that she leads would introduce a carbon tax, and then announced one after the election,  You may have noticed that a lot of people aren’t really happy with all of this.

    • Crap Filter says:

      06:06pm | 31/05/11

      The debate we’ve been having for the past four years.

      Living in a basically decent country where my vote and opinions are at least as good as yours, sunshine.

      In my country, where decent ordinary blokes speak their mind without filth or tricks. Suck it up.

    • Joel B1 says:

      08:18pm | 31/05/11

      @Shit Feeder

      “decent ordinary blokes speak their mind without filth or tricks. Suck it up”

      f#ck you, and that lying b#ch Gillard.

      Cheers!

    • Joel B1 says:

      08:50pm | 31/05/11

      @Crap Head

      You what?

      Your glorious leader Gillard said “No carbon tax”

      Yet you reckon she didn’t?

      Lefties. No grip on reality.

    • Crap filter says:

      09:28pm | 31/05/11

      Whatever.

      No amount of filth will ever make it right for Cate Blanchett to have been called a whore on The Punch.

    • Bris Jack says:

      05:57am | 01/06/11

      Yes, the tide is turning.
      The tax was going to be good for planet,  it’s now good for the economy

    • Crap filter says:

      07:44am | 01/06/11

      Right. And what did the PM say?

      “Yes, I did say that and circumstances have changed,” Ms Gillard told the Nine Network on Sunday.

      “What my vision was was to be elected as prime minister and to introduce an emissions trading scheme, which is not a carbon tax.”

      With the electorate returning a hung parliament, Ms Gillard says she was forced to deal with the Greens to form a minority government.

      The pact led to the establishment of a multi-party climate change committee, which includes Greens members.

      Last week, Ms Gillard announced a carbon tax would begin in July 2012.

      The prime minister explained that a fixed-price period, for an interim three to five years, would effectively operate as a carbon tax.

      “A carbon tax is where you fix price,” Ms Gillard says.

      “An emissions trading scheme is where you fix quantity and allow the market to sort out price ... that’s what I wanted to do.”

      Ms Gillard also downplayed suggestions the Greens are running the government, comparing herself to her predecessor John Howard, who negotiated with then Australian Democrats leader Meg Lees in 1999 to legislate a GST.

      “Effectively I am in that same position,” she says.

      “I am making some changes in order to work with the parliament that Australians voted for.”

      Sounds fair enough to me.

    • Mouse says:

      11:11am | 01/06/11

      OK, gillard had to compromise with the Greens and Independents to get into power. That’s fine, we all understand that happens in the course of doing most things, but remember one of her elections platforms was “no carbon tax ” with her government. So why did she say that she didn’t say no carbon tax? She said it repeatedly and heatedly, she berated both the Opposition and journalists, from the election until February. Now she is telling us that it will happen and we have no say in it. Howard and the GST, he took it to an election. THAT is what people are pissed off with. Whether you agree with it or not, it is the way it was done and she can blame nobody else.

    • Ben81 says:

      01:01pm | 01/06/11

      Yes we’re aware of the circumstances surrounding the carbon tax crap filter and that we simply must introduce one now that we have one single person in parliament who campaigned for it and she didn’t want to upset them and couldn’t say no to such a stupid policy.  Even though she can upset them by shipping asylum seekers to Malaysia, go figure.

      The comparison to the GST is a complete joke.by the way, John Howard didn’t begrudgingly introduce it as a Democrats policy, he took their support with some silly amendments that didn’t compromise the whole package.

    • Crap Filter says:

      05:58pm | 31/05/11

      What Garnaut said:

      “Revenue from an emissions trading scheme can be directed to three groups of recipients: Australian households; businesses; and other countries. The debate over carbon pricing and the allocation of revenues often focuses on the initial incidence of the carbon price burden and the initial allocation of revenues among these groups.

      While important, the extent to which the allocation of revenues among groups and purposes changes over time is perhaps a more
      important consideration and the focus of this note.

      Australian households will ultimately bear the full cost of a carbon price. Returns to capital are determined in international markets and any reduction in them by domestic policy measures is temporary, except to the extent that the policy measures fall on rents from natural resources,
      monopoly or technology.

      It makes sense from equity and efficiency perspectives for households to ultimately receive the vast majority of the carbon pricing revenue. From both perspectives there is a great opportunity to improve workforce incentives among low income groups by delivering assistance to them through cuts in labour income taxes.

      Moreover, and despite the unfortunate myth to the contrary, providing tax cuts for low and middle income households will not blunt the incentive to lower emissions and achieve our targets.

      Instead, it will assist household to re-orientate their expenditures toward goods and services that embody low emissions and at the same time the carbon price will set in train a supply side adjustment that enables emissions reductions to be achieved at lowest cost.”
      http://www.garnautreview.org.au/update-2011/garnaut-review-2011.html

      Rather different, hey, when you see exactly what he was talking about. Rational debate -  a great thing.

    • Sony B Goode says:

      06:52pm | 31/05/11

      Gaurnaut “It makes sense from equity and efficiency perspectives for households”

      Only a communist uses the word equity like that. Everyone else in the real world uses it for hard assets.  Only communists and socialists use “equity” to mean someone elses money: ie redistribution.

      Gaurnaut is just another one of the Gillard’s commies.

    • Wayne says:

      07:07pm | 31/05/11

      Crap filter, how much will this carbon tax in Australia reduce global temperature by? NIL, How much will sea level not rise by if this tax is introduced, Answer NIL, How much will this tax stop coral bleaching? Answer NIL. In other words this tax will not affect the climate by any measurable amount. This tax therefore has nothing to do with climate change. It is purely a tax based on a false link to being able to affect climate when it wont. It is also wealth redistribution by stealth, with money for jam to fill government coffers for anything left over. If the carbon tax in Australia will reduce temperature advise by how much.

    • Crap Filter says:

      08:48pm | 31/05/11

      Meh. TTE carefully slanted Garnaut’s words. Didn’t get away with that.

      Now Wayne tries a bit of bait and switch, with another piece of artful slant.

      Take his very first question. Slanted. Wrong. How?
      National emissions targets around the world aim to help SLOW the RISE in global temps by 2050, to something we might live with. 

      It’s far too late to actually stop it rising, let alone fall. It may already be too late to keep it to +2 degrees. But every national emissions plan will help.

      The UK Conservative PM Cameron the other day talking about their new emissions targets said
      “This is the right approach for Britain if we are to combat climate change, secure our energy supplies for the long-term and seize the economic opportunities that green industries hold.”

      “The transition to a low-carbon economy is necessary, real, and global. By stepping up, showing leadership and competing with the world, the UK can prove that there need not be a tension between green and growth.”

      So there you go Wayne. For your other “gotchas”, how about you PYFO and do some homework yourself. Garnaut or the UK Carbon Budget papers would be a good start.

    • Wayne says:

      10:55pm | 31/05/11

      Crap filter, how much will Australias carbon tax stop the temperature rise by? NIL. It doesn’t matter how you spin it, the carbon tax by not reducing the temperature therefore has nothing to do with climate change, it has to do with an emotional excuse to tax us (lets not also forget the emotional appeal to mention children, grandchildren and all beyond). It is wealth redistribution and the balance for the coffers. Sure we need to move away from fossil fuels but a carbon tax based on the inference it fixes climate change is misleading. We need R&D to discover viable base load electricity alternatives as well as how to power machinery and vehicles for transport and agriculture. We dont need a carbon tax to invest in R&D to find the real answers (the current unreliable wind turbines and solar panels in their current form are nowhere near the answer). What is more if the cost of Australian manufactured goods increase, the consumer will simply buy Chinese which are already cheaper.

    • David C says:

      05:20pm | 31/05/11

      Why is the starting rate of the tax set so high? India only taxes about $1.00 per tonne and it is only levelled at coal?
      What is the rise anticipated going forward? B.C Canada is looking at increase theirs $5.00 a year..

    • gytr says:

      08:20pm | 31/05/11

      AND BC has no cement industry anymore… it moved completely to India

    • Michael says:

      05:22pm | 31/05/11

      News just in, even without the carbon tax Queensland’s electricity charges are to jump 6.6% from July 1, 2011.  No consumer will receive compensation in this round of price gouging.  Thanks Anna.

    • Ben81 says:

      05:39pm | 31/05/11

      “We matter even though our emissions are only 1.5 per cent of the world’s, just like the UK matters with its 1.7 per cent.”

      Well let’s see what David Cameron has to say about that, he’s the one people are pointing to lately as a comparison with his announced cuts isn’t he?
      “It doesn’t actually help climate change if you simply drive an energy intensive industry to locate in Poland rather than Britain”
      “We believe that Europe should follow our lead and go for a 30 percent reduction.” “so there is a review clause in what is being announced in 2014 to make sure that if they are not on that pathway, then we shouldn’t put ourselves on it too”.

      Gee there’s a small difference between that and us pressing ahead with a pointless tax that may achieve some small cuts that the world won’t even notice at the price of an increased cost of living for everyone and the price of Australian products being driven up isn’t there?

    • persephone says:

      06:14pm | 31/05/11

      Er, what’s different between this and a carbon price?

      We already know (well, those of us who’ve bothered to read the info for ourselves, rather than listen to the redneck du jour) that there’ll be a review after three years.

      One of the purposes of the review is to see what other countries are doing - just as the UK is proposing, just as Russia and Japan and the USA are.

      Perfectly sensible to stop, take a breath, and make sure you’re not out of step with everyone else.

    • Ben81 says:

      09:05pm | 31/05/11

      Pers show me where Labor or the Greens have said that if other countries don’t make the same cuts as we do then we shouldn’t either and the announced review clause that makes that clear.
      We’re all still waiting to see what will be announced regarding the protection of energy intensive industries here aren’t we.

      All I did is use David Cameron’s quotes to point out that no, any small amount we can cut from those emissions do not matter.  We don’t have to wait three years to know that anything we can cut will be absolutely insignificant and overtaken by other countries in a matter of months, perhaps partly even by industries directly moving production from here overseas.

    • John C says:

      05:43pm | 31/05/11

      Is that Ross Garnaut of Lihir Gold fame, the exploration company alleged to have dumped waste at sea and which has had disputes over compensation to land owners? Or is it a different Ross Garnault?

    • Richard Dobson says:

      10:27pm | 31/05/11

      Exactly right. If you were to draw up a list of Australian environmental villains, Ross Garnaut would be at the very top of the list.

      This whole saga really stranger than fiction isn’t it John C? The number one environmental villain in Australia is being hailed by the left as some sort of Green hero, the economy is contracting yet inflation is sky-rocketing meaning stagflation is setting in for good, power bills have left the stratosphere and are headed to the moon, and all our government seems to be capable of doing is to try and ram a carbon tax down our throats, in response to some far-off distant threat, 50 or 100 years in the future, from some ambiguous type of ‘change’, predicted by a brand new and disreputable branch of science, which itself is hotly disputed… We didn’t elect a government to carry on like such clowns!

      I have been warning on this website for a number of months that people will die as a result of the electricity price madness in our country, and that this disgraceful federal government will have blood on its hands. Well last week, unfortunately, my darkest and most horrible predictions came true. It happened to a woman who lived around the corner from me in Toowoomba.

      The Chronicle reported on the 25 of May last week: “The woman who perished in a house fire at Drayton on Monday has been remembered as a well-liked person with a heart of gold.”

      “Family members yesterday revealed the soaring price of electricity was a factor in the death of Carol Lucas, 57, who was asleep in her bedroom when flames engulfed her home on the corner of Boothby and Cambooya Sts.”

      “Her son, 35-year-old Clint Lucas, escaped the inferno with seconds to spare.”

      “Ms Lucas’s ex-husband Peter Lucas yesterday told The Chronicle of the events surrounding the tragedy and the wonderful life Ms Lucas had led.”

      “Carol had bought the new heater only two weeks ago because the oil heater was costing too much in electricity,” Mr Lucas said as he choked back tears.

      “She was such a well-liked woman with a heart of gold and it is heartbreaking to think that she is gone, especially under these circumstances.”

      http://www.thechronicle.com.au/story/2011/05/25/family-loss-woman-fire-victim-drayton-house-lucas/

      What will it take to get this disgraceful government to stop tilting at windmills (even as the rest of the world retreats from this lunatic campaign to villify carbon dioxide, a harmless natural trace gas) and force them to focus on their actual responsibilities? There Is A Crisis In This Country Right Now! A dead-set Crisis caused by the government’s foolish and reckless insistence on carbon pricing, scaring off all investment in the new electricity infrastructure we desperately require.

      We need new power stations. They need to be coal power stations. This is a fact of current Australian reality, and all the ideology in the world won’t let you escape this stark, brutal fact.

      I call upon the government to accept the reality that we live in and forget about pointless exercises in far-left greeny ideology. This country needs a mature, responsible government, not a side-show of children, fairies and clowns.

    • James In Footscray says:

      05:51pm | 31/05/11

      Hi Mal, didn’t you say on Insiders you’d never come out on any side of the carbon debate? Are we safe to assume that no longer applies?!

    • Jason says:

      05:55pm | 31/05/11

      What with Cate and Garnaut, and a good piece by John Cook over at the Drum (among others), the Boltistas have been working overtime the past couple of days.

    • Glen says:

      06:23pm | 31/05/11

      Bolt - istas… oh you cheeky left bugger, yes that really worked out well for Cuba.

    • H B Bear says:

      06:05pm | 31/05/11

      “We matter even though our emissions are only 1.5 per cent of the world’s, just like the UK matters with its 1.7 per cent.”

      Sorry Mr Garnaut, saying something is true doesn’t make it so.  We could shut Australia tomorrow and it would barely make any difference to anyone.  Take it up with the Chinese and the Americans.  Good luck with that.

    • Wally Soames says:

      06:11pm | 31/05/11

      Yeah no listen , its about time people stopped puttin’ the two bar heater on when they dont need it for christsake. Put a bloody pair a socks on eh, when your watchin’ them cereals like Home & Away and Bold & the Buter..beautiful etc. durin’ the day that is. At night, well get the missus in bed early, warm the bed up like. Yeah no I agree with the blokes that say we are goin’ to be worse off, but I,  gees mate, I’m worse off now, compared to others who will be worser off later, or even worser off now, yeah no, I recon I’ll be worser off if we don’t argree with the Ross bloke, and get Miss Julia to fix it up like. Me and Doris don’t want to be worser off like.

    • Neil Innes says:

      06:12pm | 31/05/11

      Malcolm, do you realise the dishonesty of your report on Garnaut? He said Australia matters, as we emit 1.5% of world emissions and the UK with 3 times more population only emits 1.7% - either Garnaut does not know simple maths or he is dishonest! We are a ‘pissant’ country in the scheme of things - when the USA, Canada, Russia, and other nations have just pulled out of Kyoto protocol 2 - they realise that they cannot get a CT through and that the people just do not believe the Governments or ‘bought’ scientists. AGW is a scam and Australia implementing a CT is a scam and as small minded as the brain of an ant - A PISSANT!

    • AnthonyG says:

      09:34pm | 31/05/11

      Of course we create alot of emissions. Big deal you can’t supply the world with resources using AA batteries now can we the figures are always going to be against us

    • Sony B Goode says:

      06:12pm | 31/05/11

      The interesting thing about persephone is not some much what s/he says but s/he doesn’t say. Not once has s/he denied that redistribution is the goal of the ALP and of this tax. If one looks closely there are strong analogies between Persephone and Goebbels ministry of information.

      The more Persephone and her ilk try to persuade the more they come across as fake, phoney and dishonest, constantly twisting, distorting, ignoring the truth and manipulating anything and everything to claim the moral high ground.

      So far form labor we have had an increase in luxury car tax, a “flood levy “ tax increase, a slug on miners, a reduction on family tax benefit,  a massive debt the size this country has never seen before, spent almost entirely on fighting some phantasmagorical enemy called carbon dioxide (wouldn’t have been so bad if they blew it on infrastructure, like rail, roads, ports, dams, etc), a forced increase in super of 3%/wages offsetting a minuscule cut in small business tax rate of 1% and now we have a redistributive carbon tax on everything to save us from “extinction”.

      And to put icing on the cake, very redistributionist scheme they have touched has turned to shit.

      Gillard is a double crossing, double dealing, deceitful little socialist that has done her best to set the country on a path of class warfare.

      Like some teenagers left alone in the house for a week they, the ALP have wrought havoc, good times for their mates and are so intoxicated on power they will be surprised to see some adult supervision walk in the door at the next election.

    • AnthonyG says:

      06:18pm | 31/05/11

      I think the globe should be hotter therefore the government can pay me copious amounts of cash for not letting nature take its course. I want higher sea levels and temperatures. Just think if there were no icebergs the Titanic wouldn’t have sunk. if we lose some polar bears and penguins so be it. Its called evolution. some species will die some will flourish. That’s life some of us are beautiful some are mingers its not my fault.

    • WayneT says:

      06:21pm | 31/05/11

      By offering compensation in the first place the government will be admitting that the ‘BIG’ polluters are going to pass on the cost.  How does this tackle Anthropogenic Global Warming?  What it does mean however is that higher wage earners will have to face the full brunt of increasing prices through this tax to big business who will then by way of this tax prop up the unemployed, pensioners, and low wage earners in our so called community.  Sounds a little like communism’s wealth redistribution coming from our card carrying Fabian Society Prime Minister.

    • TCB 24 X 7 says:

      08:07pm | 31/05/11

      Exactly,
      The polluters pass the costs to consumers, who supposedly will be compensated, therefore neither polluters or consumers give a Shit.
                          And the pollution Continues.
                You dont need a proffessor to work that one out.

    • nossy says:

      06:24pm | 31/05/11

      Well done to Professor Garnaut Malcolm - I am sure Dr NO would love him to be silenced ! As the Newspoll shows though Abbott despite all the good publicity the Coalition have had lately STILL cant best Gillard as Preferred PM ! Good grief ! In fact the poll shows Gillard gaining a couple of points and Abbott slipping back one. They say a chain is only as strong as its weakest link Jack and I have managed to locate the Coalitions weakest link - its Tones Abbott , Labors greatest asset !

    • Joel B1 says:

      08:23pm | 31/05/11

      Noosy, you big tool!

      Dr No aka Abbott just had your heroine Julia second his motion for confidence in the speaker in the house of reps.

      Gillard was too busy looking dictatorial to bother.

      Nice leader you’ve got there nossy.

      PS just go away, I sick of all the pissed off Labor voters coming over to side of truth and honesty saying, we would be ALP-ists but that prime number nossy shows us how bloody stupid we are.

    • Eva says:

      06:56pm | 31/05/11

      Listening to what Mr Garnaut wants in the way of a three layer bureaucratic nightmare has made me realise the only reason for the tax is to employ more white shirts in the pay of the government.

    • bikinis on top says:

      07:40pm | 31/05/11

      Ross Garnaut for Prime Minister!
      His report and his press club speech were timely, welcome and brillant.
      Thanks Ross Garnaut,Kate Blanchett and Michael Caton.

    • Joel B1 says:

      08:27pm | 31/05/11

      @bikinis on top,

      If you are going to suck up to celebs like a ALP Prime Minister at least try to get their name right.

      It’s Cate not Kate.

      Still, don’t let facts get in your way!

      Not like you ever have.

    • Paul says:

      07:42pm | 31/05/11

      If my cost of living is going up due to the carbon tax I will put up my prices to cover it.  My clients will pay the extra as there is a shortage of providers in my industry.  May I suggest that the short sighted people who keep saying there will be no effect as it is the polluters who will pay the tax really have little idea about flow on effects in the economy.  I can still have my lifestyle but only by increasing prices.  I fully intend to do so.

    • Glen says:

      09:35pm | 31/05/11

      Mate you, I and 100% of businesses/companies out there will be doing this. Ironically enough even the all natural holistic alternative stores will jack up prices. Dare I say even union member fees will rise! Labor / Green voters are in for a rude shock.

    • bikinis on top says:

      07:42pm | 31/05/11

      Gag the Liberal Conservative environazis instead!

    • Coaster says:

      08:12pm | 31/05/11

      is he an Economist or an E-Communist? - Sounds like simple Labor wealth redistribution to me?

    • Richard says:

      08:14pm | 31/05/11

      Mal, I get it that you support a carbon tax, and that is fine. I guess about 40% of the population are strongly behind it, and that is their right (as it is yours). But when it starts to affect the quality of your reporting I do think you should try to use a bit of ‘observing ego’ to bring it back in check.

      You accuse Tony Abbott of using ” slick and glib one-liners”, but don’t you realise that that phrase itself is a slick and glib one-liner? You say that “the Opposition has successfully been telling the public that a “carbon tax” - or on occasion the “toxic tax” - will wreck household budgets already flattened by other cost-increasing factors”, but don’t you realise you have it back to front?

      The Opposition isn’t selling a message and the public is buying it, its the Public that has a firm and implacable opposition to the Carbon Tax. (the public always has, at least since the Copenhagen failure in ‘09, if not before then. Sorry if that bursts your comfortable leftist view of the world, but the facts support my assertion). The Opposition is listening to the people and adopting a position that reflects their majority held views.

      Remember when the Opposition supported the CPRS? The party room was pretty much behind Malcolm (except for the notable exception of Nick Minchin… But even Tony Abbott was behind the CPRS, remember?). It was the rank-and-file members of the Liberal party who launched an open revolt against it and forced the removal of Malcolm Turnbull as leader. It is the rank-and-file everyday people in Australia who oppose a Carbon Tax, and Tony Abbott is the only one listening to us.

      You lefty idealists cannot convince us, I’m sorry. Its not about more information and then we’ll come around, its not about waiting until the compensation details are released and then we’ll see the light. We are just dead-set against it (well, at least a very firm 60% of us are dead-set against it anyway). We are, we will be, and that is an electoral fact of Australian political life which you can take all the way to the polling booth.

      Politicians can either accept the hard facts and adopt their strategy to deal with it, or they can ignore facts, they can ignore the majority will of the people, and thus seal their electoral fate at the ballot box.

      You all underestimate our intelligence. You lefties all think that if you can just “educate” us a little bit more, we’ll come around to your point of view, we’ll see finally that you were right all along and we’ll wonder why we didn’t realise it in the first place. But that is such an arrogantly pig-headed and incorrect attitude. We are intelligent, we really are. And we’ve put a lot of thought into our positions: a lot of lot of deep deep thought. We all have different reasons for holding the beliefs and stances that we hold, and they are all different stances in subtle ways, but they all add up to one inescapable fact: We Oppose A Carbon Tax.

      Not because Tony told us to, not because BoltA told us to, but because we are rational intelligent human beings who investigated the facts for ourselves and made up our own independent minds on the issue. My advice to politician who wants to experience political success in Australia is to Listen to the People: listen to us! Don’t tell us we are dumb and we don’t know what we’re talking about and tell us that all we need is a bit of re-education and we’ll see the light. No. Listen to us, listen to the will of the people.

    • Brett says:

      09:59pm | 31/05/11

      Funny you should mention 60%. That’s almost the same figure that was against the GST when it was first polled, yet Howard correctly didn’t listen to the polls. He listened to his economic advisers, and here we all are..

      If you think those poll numbers aren’t influenced by Tony Abbott’s tribal rants you’re delusional. 60% is as firm as the 80% that were FOR a carbon tax on polluters back in the Howard days.

    • Richard says:

      11:08pm | 31/05/11

      But Brett, the failure at Copenhagen changed everything, and now even more so after the decisions this week by France, Russia, Canada and Japan to follow the lead of China and the USA (the 2 biggest carbon emitters by far) to pull out of carbon reductions treaties.

      There is ideology and then there is reality. A responsible Doctor may hate his patient personally, but if he is called upon to save his patient’s life, he must. Likewise, our government may not want more coal-fired power stations to be built in this country, but people will keep dying unless they do get built and electricity prices are brought down.

      Will this government be responsible and relent from carbon taxation, or will they continue to be reckless and irresponsible by continuing pointlessly down the path of carbon tax folly (while every major nation says “no”)?

    • Crap filter says:

      08:50am | 01/06/11

      If his stand is as prinipled as he claims, Richard might well want to go a step further.

      By approaching the Liberal Party and its Leader,  to recommend they argue what case they may have with honesty, instead of all the devious endless spin, seen even in Question Time yesterday on Garnaut.

      Worth a try, surely? If they have a case, the plain truth should cut it. Shouldn’t it?

    • Richard says:

      09:14am | 01/06/11

      Er, what Crap Filter? Don’t you get it? I’m saying that the Liberal’s (and their leader’s) argument is Irrelevant. Who cares how much carbon gets exhaled out of the mouths of politicians in Canberra?

      The critical point is that the People are against the carbon tax.

      The Pee Pull.

      Us.

      The voters.

      The electorate.

      The majority.

      Mainstream Australia.

      Get it? Wise politicians will listen to us and respect our intelligence and our views. Foolish politicians will ignore us and condescend us and tell us we’re stupid (at their peril).

    • Crap filter says:

      10:42am | 01/06/11

      Get it? That the electorate and the parliament are pretty much the same?

      The same mix of lazy and hard-working, of thoughtful and dense, average, above average and below average? Of honest and devious? Of self-interested and generous? Of greedy and thrifty?  Sure I get it. Who doesn’t?
      The same mix of people, in and out of parliament. That’s no reason to decide public policy by bad faith, by devious spin, by sloppy “analysis” and etc,  on boards like this or in our parliament.  That’ll give us only bad policy, whether the people choose it or parliament decides it. 

      So whether its the parliament, the people, or some frantic ranting unrepresentative minority online bear-pit, I for one am not going to roll over for public policy by witch hunt, revolting filth, or devious spin.

      No one tells me what to think. No one tells me not to think. No-one tells me not to look for myself. No one.

      Let the people be given the facts. Then we’ll see.

    • Joel B1 says:

      08:40pm | 31/05/11

      Prime Minister Gillard’s wasted here, she needs to get a magic show Kris Cross LA style.

      [In an affected nasal twang] “Look no Carbon tax! But if I move the sheet of gullibility around ... [drum roll] behold a Carbon Tax!” [cue applause from Farr and other sycophants].

    • Tony says:

      08:59pm | 31/05/11

      “there will be no carbon tax under Labor”
      No one believes anything a Labor politician says anymore.
      Labor = bullish@it

    • TCB 24 X 7 says:

      12:47am | 01/06/11

      Aussies have stopped listening to labor a long time ago.

    • Joan says:

      02:22pm | 01/06/11

      @TCB

      Who cares? They keep voting them into Government.

    • Joan says:

      03:34pm | 01/06/11

      @TCB 24X 7

      Just watch Juliar like the wreck of the Hesperus head Australia for the rock sand   send Australia crashing dead broke the usual Labor way, then the rest of Australia who voted Labor will dump Labor too. Millions already weeping on blogs that they rue the day they voted for Juliar…the backstabbing No Carbon Tax liar.  Juliar the ongoing national disaster in 2011 Australia.

    • Joan says:

      03:50pm | 01/06/11

      @ Joan

      You forgot the falling sky.

      The fact that the Australian economy is in such great shape after 4 years of Labor Government is really driving you crazy, isn’t it?

    • TCB 24 X 7 says:

      06:18pm | 01/06/11

      Did you check the latest figures on the economy , it dropped 1.2%

    • Joan says:

      06:52pm | 01/06/11

      @TCB

      Yeah right. Did the sky fall on it?

    • Joan says:

      07:21pm | 01/06/11

      @TCB 24X 7

      The rain is falling, the dams are full and disaster 2011 Juliar ripping the economy to shreds. Juliars Carbon Tax on everything will bury Australian jobs. Swans jobs jobs jobs wil be jobs for China.  jobs for NZ with Heinz first set to sail jobs to NZ

    • Joan says:

      11:12pm | 01/06/11

      @TCB

      The fact that Australia has record employment after 4 years of Labor Government is really driving you crazy, isn’t it?

    • Sony B Goode says:

      11:32pm | 01/06/11

      “The fact that Australia has record employment after 4 years of Labor Government is really driving you crazy, isn’t it?”
      I like the way labor fascists claim credit for every positive even when it has nothing to do with them.
      The employment is mining sucking up jobs from the economy, one mate just left a professional job to drive dump trucks for double the salary.
      Watch what happens when china sneezes or catches a cold. Labor’s record won’t look so good then will it?

    • Joan says:

      09:22am | 02/06/11

      @Sonybgood

      The sky will fall? And if it did, that wouldn’t change the fact that Australia has record employment after 4 years of Labor Government. It’s really driving you crazy, isn’t it?

      And when the sky falls and Australia has double digit unemployment, you’ll be posting comments claiming that it has nothing to do with the Government, won’t you?

    • Joel B1 says:

      09:07pm | 31/05/11

      Farr,

      Your younger days reading Enid Blyton rather embarrassingly shine through in this outstanding bit of fanboy drivel.

      “Ross Garnaut is an economist who has never pretended to be a climate expert, but who has accepted the advice of those who are tops in that field and have warned that the globe is getting dangerously hotter because of carbon emissions.”

      That’s just like “Julian knew that Uncle Quentin was a top notch boffin, he worked with formula for the Ministry. His cousin George, Uncle Quentin’s daughter knew better, “he’s just a manipulative or manipulated old shit” she said. Timmy the dog said “woof”“.

      To your loss however, Blyton never did expand on sycophantism did she?

    • Dr B S Goh says:

      09:20pm | 31/05/11

      Are we being lied to again? The figures simply do NOT add up. According to the Media the Chief Climate Adviser to the PM says 55% of the carbon tax goes to the poorer part of the community, 35% goes to businesses affected making a subtotal of 90%. Then a big sum for R&D to promote renewable energy making a sum total of about 100%. What about the 10% under an Agreement with UN which we agreed to hand over to the UN. What about Admin costs at least 10% if not 20% to pay for civil servants and Advisers. According to public record people like T Flannery gets $180,000 per year for his part-time job as an Adviser to Govt.

      The most important missing number is the outcome on global warming. According to my calculations it is irrelevant. Indian just announced it has 1,200,000,000 people with 180,000,000 added in the last TEN years.

      I think is better we forget about the carbon tax. Remove our embargo and sell uranium to India so it can reduce its independence on coal.

      There is a huge outcry in Australia on what happen to the live cattle we send to India.

      I suggest a Four Corners Team do a show on what happens to our coal when it is shipped to Asia. Does it go to some old crappy power station spewing out tons of CO2? I had suggested that it is better that Australia put a tax on all coal exports and this new tax is fully refundable if it can be shown that the end user of our coal are CO2 efficient power stations.

    • Dr B S Goh says:

      09:50pm | 31/05/11

      Oops.. a very bad error in the above post. “There is a huge outcry in Australia on what happen to the live cattle we send to India:should read Indonesia and not India.” My sincere apologies to my Indian friends who are Hindus. The cows are sacred in their religion.

    • Paul Mason says:

      09:26pm | 31/05/11

      Don’t get excited and concern your selves unduly.Once Tony is in Gov.in the not to distant future ,he will pull the pin on the great big new carbon tax,BOOM,and all will be well and things can get back to normal.So settle down and have a good nights sleep.

    • Anubis says:

      10:55am | 01/06/11

      @Paul Mason - Except Joolya said they would make the Carbon Tax so complex and intricately linked in Government policy and taxation that it would be nigh on impossible to unravel it.

    • Joel B1 says:

      09:34pm | 31/05/11

      Our Prime Minister Gillard has scored a humanity saving success with this.

      Our economy will flourish with many green jobs.

      We will be the envy of the modern world.

      Thank you Prime Minister Julia Gillard, you have saved us.

    • Shane From Melbourne says:

      11:48pm | 31/05/11

      Peak Oil will occur and humanity will enter a Dark Age. But the carbon tax and anti carbon tax brigades can still fight it out if they want. I no longer care. Humanity doesn’t deserve to be saved from it’s own stupidity. Nihilism is the only rational philosophy in response to humanity’s failure to regulate its exponential population growth and blatant disregard for the environment.

    • Anubis says:

      11:03am | 01/06/11

      @Joel B1 - Just what is ti you are smoking Joel B1 ? Do you have lots and lots of Rainbows, unicorns, fairy and glittery things in that Green skied world of yours ?

      Just how is Gillard’s Carbon Tax a humanity saving success? It has been acknowledged that it will do nothing to address climatic conditions (real or imagined), compensation will rule out people taking any action to address their behaviours, trade affected industries will also be compensated (so no impetus for action there) and there will be no money left for R&D into alternative power sources. If you follow Garnaut’s speech 55% to compensation for households, 35% for compensation to Industry. leaves 10% which perfectly matches the Tithe we are required to give to IPCC/UN Wiorld Bank for redistribution to third world countries and tin-pot dictators. On top of this we are to get three levels of pen pushers to manage the scheme (just where is the money for this coming from), and we still have to continue paying the conga line of suckholes led by Professor Gumnut and Flim-Flam Flannery. Actually looks to me like this great new redistribution scheme is going to cost us all money, even before you factor in the cascading price rises created by those companies getting taxed passing on their costs throughout the supply chain.

      How can turning Australia into a land of agrarian peasants be a humanity saving success. You sir are delusional.

    • Mark says:

      02:33pm | 01/06/11

      @ Joel

      Prime Minister Gillard does deserve credit, but we should also always remember the words of John Howard.

      “Over time the scientific evidence that the climate is warming has become quite compelling and the link between emissions of greenhouse gases from human activity and higher temperatures is also convincing.

      Being among the first movers on carbon trading in this region will bring new opportunities and we intend to grasp them.”

      Thanks, John.

    • stephen says:

      10:04pm | 31/05/11

      Mr Garnault for PM.
      He’s one of the 2 or 3 of importance in this country where his brain is connected to his spine.

    • Lapun says:

      04:19pm | 01/06/11

      And thence to his a….ole.

    • Dr B S Goh says:

      11:05pm | 31/05/11

      @ Richard Dobson. It is very sad to see an advanced and educated country like Australia behaving like a zombie. We are being seduced by economics hocus pocus. Australia’s proposed carbon tax will have almost zero effects on global warming. It will cause harm to the Australian economy and it will produce illusions that we are doing something effective about global warming.

      I prefer we have simple and effective ways forward. Have a tax surcharge of say 0.1% on taxable income. Use this new tax and spend it on R&D on ways to generate electricity which does not use coal or on ways to capture the CO2 from coal power stations.

      There was a recent report that in Spain CO2 was captured from a power station to grow algae and turned into biofuel.

      I accept that global warming is a serious threat to humanity. But I think the nasty effects global population will hit us like a ton of bricks long before global warming makes life miserable for us in Australia.

      Australia is at risk of being overrun by a tsunami of millions of boatpeople when we experience a critical global food shortage within 30 years.

    • AlanS says:

      11:24pm | 31/05/11

      I am confused. Garnaut is an economist who has little knowledge of climate science. But he talks to so-called experts in this field and the labor government believes every word he utters. Yet there are many top of their field climate experts who dispute the entire notion of climate change. Has he spoken to these people as well? Or just the left wing greenie scientists.

      He has been the beneficiary of a great deal of taxpayer dollars I would assume for his efforts for the Labor party over many years now. But still the vast majority don’t agree with his findings.

      Something isn’t right somewhere. Either he is wrong or the vast majority who have done their own research don’t agree with his findings. Maybe it is time for a different approach from a different person or group.

    • Crap Filter says:

      08:03am | 01/06/11

      He’s an economist. His task was to look at economic effects and responses.

      This he has now done, twice, with background on climate change reported here:

      “The fact is, that despite human imperfection, modern science on climate change has held up well under withering scrutiny. The vast majority of those who have spent their professional lives seeking to understand climate and the impacts of human activity on it have no doubt that average temperatures on earth are rising and that human-induced increases in greenhouse gases are making major contributions to these rises. They are supported in this by the learned academies of science in all of the countries of scientific accomplishment.”
      http://www.garnautreview.org.au/update-2011/garnaut-review-2011/chapter1.html

      Nuthin but dang Left wing Greenies, eh. Pull the other one.

    • Lapun says:

      02:18pm | 01/06/11

      Alan S - Garnaut I think manages to confuse us all.  Perhaps most of all the Government.    Frankly I sat through the televised address and questions after and found that midst all the stammering and muttering I hardly understood a word.    Presumably his written report would be somewhat more enlightening.  Malcolm Farr was right about one thing - Garnaut is not an entertaining or stimulating speaker.

    • Anthony says:

      08:03am | 01/06/11

      written and endorsed by the Green ALP.

    • Crap filter says:

      08:28am | 01/06/11

      Yeah yeah, yeah yeah. Sure pal. Whatever.

    • Harquebus says:

      08:57am | 01/06/11

      Ross Garnaut is a fool and only fools take him seriously. He is not even aware of peak oil. That’s because he is an economic eggspurt and not a geologist. One knows no limits, the other knows different.

    • Joan says:

      03:56pm | 01/06/11

      More importantly, what’s his opinion on Flash?

    • Harquebus says:

      02:21pm | 02/06/11

      Pay him and he will tell you whatever you want to hear.

    • Crap Filter says:

      09:28am | 01/06/11

      Yeah yeah, yeah yeah.  No “Peak Oil” 2-word slogan. Sure pal. Whatever. 

      This, instead:

      “Relative prices of different energy sources are the other principal
      determinant of the fuel mix. If oil prices increase relative to prices of
      other energy sources, as is widely considered to be likely, this will trigger
      a substitution away from oil and towards other energy sources. The effect
      on carbon emissions is unpredictable. Replacement energy sources may be lower in carbon intensity, as in the case of electricity from gas, nuclear or
      renewable sources. Alternatively, they may have greater carbon intensity, as
      in the case of coal, and coal-based liquid fuels, tar sands and conversion of
      gas to liquids.

      For the time being, the price of gas relative to oil will tend to fall in
      the United States and elsewhere as new supplies emerge in high volumes.
      However, the International Energy Agency argues that the decoupling of
      contract gas prices from oil prices does not necessarily mean weaker gas
      prices in the longer term. The price incentives to replace coal and oil by gas
      are likely to be positive and influential for a considerable while, but at some
      time will come under pressure from perceptions of scarcity.

      A comparison of the global energy mix at 2030 under old and new
      International Energy Agency projections illustrates the point. The agency’s
      most recent projections have the share of oil in global energy supply at 2030 at 28.5 per cent, down from 31.5 per cent in previous projections. This reduction is made up in roughly equal measure by increased use of coal, nuclear power and electricity from renewables, including biomass. The substitution effects differ greatly between countries, but the net effect of moving from the old to the new projections slightly reduce the expected carbon intensity of the global energy supply.”
      p24

      and
      “There are multiple motives for innovation in some of these areas.
      Increased efficiency in the use of energy, the development of new energy
      sources for electricity and the accumulation of carbon in soils may all lead
      to lower costs independently of the need to reduce emissions. The rising
      costs of oil—with depletion of the limited stock of natural resources that are
      readily and cheaply accessible—strengthen this motive for energy saving and alternative energy. This motive has been further strengthened recently by the large increases in current expectations of future oil prices.”
      p114

      and

      “The economics of petrol versus electricity as a source of fuel have
      changed with higher oil prices. In the 2008 Review, forward oil prices in the
      US$60–70 per barrel range were built into the modelling, but global forecasts now tend to be in the range of US$120–130 per barrel. Strong growth in developing country demand and limited opportunities for expanding supply raise the possibility of prices going much higher at times, pending the development of alternative sources of energy for transport. “
      p129

      and etc etc etc etc. For goodness sake.

    • fox says:

      12:23pm | 01/06/11

      Is it just me or is the ‘families will get their money back’ incredibly stupid? Imagine the layers of bureacracy required and the billions that will be wasted for people to pay a tax.. just to (supposedly) get it paid it back to them after going through 5 different government departments.

      Like a blunt pencil.

    • Paddy says:

      03:18pm | 01/06/11

      How much are Macquarie Bank and Goldman Sachs going to make from the carbon tax each year????????

    • The Daily Reckoning says:

      03:33pm | 01/06/11

      “Yesterday, the people’s champion, Ross Garnaut, threw down the gauntlet to anyone in Australia who does not respect his authority. He has claimed that the scientific evidence now shows, “beyond a reasonable doubt”, that man-made carbon dioxide emissions are causing the Earth to warm, or the climate to change, or something, or both.

      —Thus ends, apparently the debate about the science. The government’s man—who by the way has been paid $265,700 of your money to reach a conclusion that happens to support the government’s policy—has spoken. If you’d be good enough to shut your mouth and your mind now, he can get on with the business of saving Australia and the world from its own greedy foolishness.

      —In the final (thank goodness) part of his eight-part climate review, he announced three big plans yesterday: how to split up the $11.5 billion dollars he reckons will be raised by establishing a price for carbon emissions, the establishment of a non-political independent authority to determine what the level of greenhouse emissions in Australia should be each year, and an independent agency to determine how emissions-intensive industry should be assisted in paying the new tax.

      —That is a full day’s work, even by government standards. But it’s about what you’d expect from a dedicated believer in an intrusive, meddlesome, and punitive State. He wants two new government agencies and the power to discriminate over who gets all the money that will now be flowing through government coffers.

      —Oh, the hubris. Garnaut doesn’t trust the political process to set a target for carbon emissions. So he wants a committee set up to do it, which sounds a lot like the Reserve Bank setting the price for money with interest rates. Great, just what we need, an unaccountable, un-elected group of smarty-pants men and women telling us how much to pay for something, except in this case it will be energy instead of credit.

      —Why do authoritarian civil servants distrust democracy so much? Probably because it interferes with their ability to impose on the world their own pet ideas and theories about how you should live.

      —Perhaps the worst part about his diabolical, bullying, morally self-righteous, and intellectually arrogant plan is that the proposed independent agency will be in the position of passing judgement on which industries get assistance and which do not. The proper word for this kind of review is: discrimination.

      —Now, we are not against discrimination. It means exercising judgement. And in individual cases, we’re all for it. But we’re dead set against it when a law is set up that allows unelected apparatchiks to penalise or reward industries based on their own whims (or judgement).

      —This uneven application of an opaque law is fertile ground for corruption, the dispensation of political favours, and bribery. It’s how things are done in countries where the rule of law gives way to the rule of smart men who know better than everyone else what we all should do.

      —And in a testament to his own self-belief, Garnaut had the audacity to criticise the business community for acting for its vested interests as opposed to the “national” interest he claimed to be acting for.  Having portrayed power generation and industrial companies as polluters, rather than as employers and productive enterprises delivering valuable goods to Australia, he goes one step further and asserts that they are acting contrary to what is good for the nation.

      —If name calling were a form of argument, we’d call Garnaut a jackass. But name calling is not a form of argument. So we won’t call him a jackass.

      —But we will say this is a standard and devious debating tactic of those who believe that the State improves your quality of life more than Enterprise: accuse them of acting for selfish and greedy reasons and tell everyone you are acting for “the public” and “the nation”.

      —What’s good for the public and the nation is a democratically governed Australia with a vibrant economy in which public policy debates are not unilaterally shut down by unelected civil servants. To be quite honest it’s astonishing how the mainstream media and so many people in official public life take this so seriously. It’s a clear exhibition of how strong their faith is in centralisation, State power, and coercion by law. You can almost see the smog of moral righteousness emanating from Canberra too.”

    • Steve says:

      04:33pm | 01/06/11

      Wow. Awesome post. Thank you.

    • Susan Q says:

      05:50pm | 01/06/11

      Top notch post mate.

      You relieved my anger so much I didn’t need to rage-post as usual.

      Thanks and look forward to more input from you!

    • Mark says:

      06:55pm | 01/06/11

      @TDR

      If name calling were a form of argument, we’d call you a jackass. But name calling is not a form of argument. So we won’t call you a jackass.

    • Govt@FauxCitizen says:

      10:18pm | 01/06/11

      Oh dear they’ve wheeled him out again!,, lord have mercy for the cacophony we are about to receive,,,, Ho Hum, preaching more opinionated self righteous pissant drivell, of course Garnaut is independant and impartial, that’s why he was handpicked for the job by his fabian mates for a predictable and unbiased report for a measly few hundred thousand dollars “priceless”, but the best is he gets to preach more of his drivell to the faithful at the annual Victorian fabian dinner on September 2.

 

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