Campaign countdown: Visit to the heart of darkness

watchingwithinterest says:

08:33am | 10/06/10

Totally agree.  My first thought when I saw that he had announced this new cash give away.  When will the man learn that Australians want him to keep his wallet closed

Andrew says:

11:36am | 10/06/10

Actually Sherlock (and listen up Leo), he didn’t arrive with buckets of cash. He came with truckloads of promises - and I wouldn’t bank on that given Rudd and Canberra’s track record of saying whatever they need to get agreement and then renegging.

That’s one of WA’s biggest fears; that Canberra will take it all and distribute to their mates in the east for short term political gain. We are already shortchanged on the return of GST funds. Nobody can trust or rely on handouts from a Canberra hostile to the west.

persephone says:

12:36pm | 10/06/10

Andrew

so the Senate should use its numbers to make sure the mining states are guaranteed their share of the funding.

If the government’s offer is genuine, that shouldn’t be a problem.

If it isn’t, that’ll flush them out.

Andrew II says:

12:48pm | 10/06/10

Pers, I think what Andrew is saying is that Rudd can’t be trusted (just ask Iemma). Its good to know that you have so little faith in your dear leader’s word that you suggest he needs to be “locked in” to any promise by the senate. How sad for you that even a dogmatic Labor supporter has no faith in the word of their hero.

persephone says:

03:40pm | 10/06/10

No, Andrew II, just saying that if the Coalition is so paranoid there are things they can do.

And, as I also said, the government wouldn’t have any problem with something like that.

antiperspirant says:

08:10pm | 10/06/10

“so the Senate should use its numbers to make sure the mining states are guaranteed their share of the funding.”

They can’t make it permanent.

The constitution allows the government to make laws with respect to taxation. You cannot limit that.

There is no guarantee, there is no promise.

They will change the spending and taxing model to suit the times as they should. it is stupidity in the extreme not to do that. No tax or taxation law should be for perpetuity.

So stop this stupid argument that the tax receipts all going back and 40% will be returned on losses.

The first hint of a recession or a normal cyclical downturn in mineral prices that will go as unsustainable.

It is all based around a treasury computer model.

Garbage in garbage out. This tax is about environmental policy and control of an industry. It is about power.

All it does is weaken a country.

Shame.

Wayne Fehlhaber says:

08:36am | 10/06/10

Joel :  Because Rudd knows that he will lose lots of seats in Qld. and W.A.  It’s called vote buying or pork barreling.

Norma says:

09:06am | 10/06/10

You are not supposed to be clever enough to ask this Joel. Rudd’s advisers assume voters are dumb. Dumb voters in Qld and WA may fall for it, but I would suggest Rudd will lose more support via this tactic in other states than he will gain in the 2 resource rich states.

persephone says:

09:10am | 10/06/10

Joel

because part of the justification for the tax has always been that the states can’t afford to provide the level of infrastructure required by mining.

The tax proposal has always included an infrastructure fund, with the money from this always identified as going mainly to the mining states.

All that’s new in this announcement, as is made clear by the articles Leo links to, is that WA is getting an extra $400 million.

Rob r Charteris says:

09:23am | 10/06/10

LOL ‘It’s called vote buying or pork barreling’ well it worked for Howard why not give it a try ppPPpp

Willy K says:

10:42am | 10/06/10

Exactly.  When Rudd pulled that stunt it was at that millisecond that he signed his own political death warrant.

A dangerous incompetent fraud.

He has to go ASAP.

Shifter says:

04:47pm | 10/06/10

@Joel:  Because WA and Queensland have the majority of these resources that the money is being generated from.

Why should other states be entitled to a ‘fair’ share of this revenue when it does not happen for any other source?

The Dark Knight says:

10:00am | 11/06/10

Bit naive in your Knowledge there shifter!!
  How about the bulk of NSW GST being shifted across the board fee of charge???

harriet says:

09:17am | 10/06/10

Gina had her first ride on a bus yesterday, as well as her first rally. What a giggle “axe the tax”, oh ah !  Now in to the hyatt for lunch and alert the chauffeur for my departure.

Diamantina Dick says:

09:28am | 10/06/10

“massively distorted property, rental and labour markets”

This actually means increased housing equity wealth, good investment property returns and increased wages.

I’m still looking for where the problems is?

Steve says:

09:53am | 10/06/10

Holly, I’ll accept that the country’s richest are not able to be objective about the proposed tax, but that does not mean that what they are saying is wrong.

I think that you are assuming that if it is bad for them, then it must be good for the rest of us. Whereas, if the tax is well designed and implemented, it will be good for all, as Treasury claim. However, if the tax is not well designed, it will drive away investment, which will be bad for all of us, as the miners claim. It must be either a win-win, or a lose-lose. Your, lose-win or win-lose way of thinking is not correct.

Don’t pay attention to the class warfare arguments. Think that if you had lots of money to invest, and the tax here were say 20% higher than other countries, and the government were prone to changing the rules half way through the game, where would YOU invest? Not in Australia, I’ll bet. Nor would I.

John says:

09:57am | 10/06/10

Poor Twiggy.. no time time to get changed from the miner’s gear, fresh from digging a hole.. straight from his private jet.. And Gina squealing because someone else might benefit from the largesse… is that not her birthright after all?.. and the rent a crowd..

Shouldn’t we actually be finding ways to give them even more subsidies. And so to we need to continue subsidize good old Clive and the other multinationals..

I wonder why the poor conservatives amongst us rush to their defence. I guess that is their nature after all. No vision, mediocrity as a goal for this country, give it all away to other sovereignties, dig a hole,..damn the environment and a dose of xenophobia for good measure.

Saskia says:

10:34am | 10/06/10

What us wrong with self-made wealthy people???  Private enterprise is what builds this country and fills all of our wallets.  Don’t you get economics???

And it’s ‘Fremantle’ and that ‘community’ meeting was a vetted group of ALP stalwarts - what a fraud.

Rudd keeps on saying that the mining boom will not last forever so why hook Australia’s prosperity in with it?  Also why then spend the RSPT tax money on mining infrastructure when the miners would do it anyway???

Tax the miners then spend the tax on mining infrastructure that the miners will do better and cheaper anyway!!!

This govt is stark raving nuts.  Nothing makes sense.  It either a socialist style power grab or sheer vanity to find the funds to paper over Rudd’s record deficit so he doesn’t go down as the worst PM of all time.

Too late.

Steve says:

11:36am | 10/06/10

@Saskia
“Don’t you get economics???”

No, they don’t. Here is a link to a survey that show that the more “left” a person is, the more questions about basic economics they get completely wrong.

http://econjwatch.org/file_download/432/ButurovicKleinMay2010.pdf

James1 says:

01:29pm | 10/06/10

To be fair Steve, historically every economist ever has gotten in wrong eventually.  Economics is not a science, it is politics in different clothing.  Ask three economists the same question, you get four answers.

Steve says:

02:43pm | 10/06/10

@James1

The survey questions were very basic, non-controversial things. Some examples: Is a company with the largest market share a monopoly? Does mandatory licensing of professional services increase prices? Is the standard of living higher today than 30 years ago?

On average, lefties got 65% of the questions wrong, whereas right wingers got 16% wrong. Overall, the clear result is that left-wing ideology makes it very hard for people to accept simple economic realities.

miles says:

08:58pm | 10/06/10

@steve
“Is a company with the largest market share a monopoly? Does mandatory licensing of professional services increase prices? Is the standard of living higher today than 30 years ago?”

If that market share approaches 100%. Not necessarily, it just mandates a minimum quality of service, though limiting those licences does increase prices. Whose standard of living?

The simplistic and often binary approach economics takes with such questions is well suited to a right-wing agenda. Doesn’t mean the ‘basic’ answers to those ‘basic’ questions are actually correct.

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/06/07/does-studying-economics-make-you-more-republican/

I wonder if they would find the same thing with Australian economists’ political persuasions.

Colin P says:

10:54pm | 10/06/10

After the Bats Affair, the Schools Affair, Computers in Schools Affair, et. al. Rudd and the cohorts building mining infrastructure. Now that would be a road to nowhere.

Steve says:

10:27am | 11/06/10

@miles
Thanks for the nytimes blog link. I had not seen it. It confirms a link between right wing ideology and economic enlightenment for that sample of graduates.

I may have misrepresented the study that I quoted previously. They did not use binary questions. I made them binary as a simplification.

My point to Saskia was that studies like these suggest strongly that it is common for lefties to display amazing economic ignorance.

The take home message is that right wing posters need to explain and even argue for basic economic principles that they regard as self-evident if they are to have any hope of moving people with a left-wing ideology.

Charity Box says:

12:40pm | 10/06/10

Persephone,regardless its money that still has to be repayed,the Hawke/Keating government were the ones that destroyed,minning/infrastructuer with the FBT,top rate tax of 45 %,on everything,so why should the minners,build infrastructure.

persephone says:

12:49pm | 10/06/10

Charity

this money doesn’t have to be repaid.

These projects are to be funded from the proceeds of the resource tax.

Part of the income received from the super profits tax will be put into an infrastructure fund.

The $2 billion referred to largely comes from this fund, and will be used to build infrastructure in WA, so the miners won’t have to.

So, no, they don’t have to repay the money spent on infrastructure and no, they don’t have to fund infrastructure either (although making an indirect contribution).

N says:

01:37pm | 10/06/10

Actually its money allocated from a deficit economy, so being pulled out of thin air is entirely accurate.

Grumbles says:

11:24am | 10/06/10

WA currently gets 72c in every GST dollar back. What was your point?

Chris Martin says:

10:01am | 11/06/10

agreed Ryan. It sickens and disgusts me to see this sort of attitude.  Holly, you should think yourself lucky you live in Australia where you can live a life expecting others to provide for you (others being those who are prepared to get of their arses and have a crack). Just keep voting Labor and you’ll be fine, until they run out of everyone else’s money to splash around making live easy for those who choose not to contribute or would rather live in la-la land sprouting ideologies rather than the real world.

elle effe says:

01:45am | 11/06/10

Yes, Fabio, my son in the Pilbara tells me this is the ONLY topic of conversation: tax and jobs and the fact that Rudd is gone if he keeps on with this.

James says:

10:17am | 11/06/10

Im just still in shock the fact that he hasnt visited these places? We’re the people that its going to affect. We’re the people out of a job. Rather than going to Perth and talking to a bunch of suits , go out to the these regional centres , kalgoorlie and up north in particular and get a scope of what you propose. Not to do that makes me so angry, NEVER voting labor again after this.

John S says:

03:49pm | 10/06/10

Holly - they can afford a house - they just have to go and earn the money! If you can’t affor don ewith the money from your current job, change jobs. Don’t have the skills to get a new job, go and learn them. It is a virtuous spiral.

Randal says:

03:56pm | 10/06/10

Maybe Holly those nasty rich mining companies should just pack up shop and move somewhere else, that’s got to be better for the Australian economy.

Heck, think of the effect that would have on housing prices in WA, they would come spiraling down, pity no one would have a job in WA to afford to by one, but at least you would get to see the trickle down affect in all its glory.

Andrew says:

12:43pm | 10/06/10

Um, so Saudi Arabia is your model? Are you advocating the full nationalisation of all resources (rather than the 40% put forward by Rudd)?

You are aware that Saudi Arabia is one of the most corrupt regimes in the world run by a ruling Royal family with no democratic elections. Are you are further aware that 99.9% of the wealth of Saudi Arabia is in the hands of that royal family (perhaps in total 25,000 men). And Saudi Arabia is home to some of the worst human rights abuses in the world (which may explain why 16 of the 18 9/11 terrorists were Sauadis).

Perhaps if you knew something of the world geopolitical landscape and economic theory (particularly theory in relation to state based industries and nationalisation) you might have some credibility. Clearly you do not.

Unfortunately it is sound bite believing dopes like you that tend to get people like Kevin Rudd and his band of socialists elected.

Randal says:

01:53pm | 10/06/10

GBNL in fact the total contribution of the government’s spending totaled 0.8% of GDP growth for the past 12 months, with the vast effect being fueled into the Retail sector during the December quarter following the $900.00 hand out.

Infrastructure spending had little or no affect, and Australia’s total growth through this period was 2.7%, with the small growth being driven primarily by the resources sector and the record prices for commodities.

So I am afraid you are incorrect in your assessment in all areas.

As for grabbing minerals too cheaply, I will now remind you that the only reason that the treasury has forecasted a return to a small budgetary surplus in 3 years is due to the expected influx of taxation paid by the resources sector during an anticipated continuation of the record commodity prices.

That in itself should tell anyone with a rationale thought that the resources sector is more than paying its way and that the Really Stupid Profit Tax will kill the goose laying this golden egg.

persephone says:

12:44pm | 10/06/10

Oh dear, I wouldn’t quote Xstrata in this argument.

They’ve been shown to be…er…‘misleading’ when it comes to the amount of tax they pay at present…

http://www.smh.com.au/business/xstrata-claims-on-tax-and-job-losses-do-not-add-up-20100608-xtm7.html

...as well as having to admit that the 60 jobs you’ve referred to never existed in the first place.

As for mothballing the 3000 jobs, given that these are potential jobs which might be there several years from now, they can be unmothballed just as quickly - and will be, when the legisltion goes through.

Andrew says:

01:21pm | 10/06/10

If that is the case Pers, why aren’t the ASIC taking action against Xstrata and their execs for breaches of the Corp Act and ASIC Act. Why isn’t the ASX suspending them for trading for breaches of the Listing Rules?

Don’t try to mislead everyone with your leftie labor propaganda. If Rudd, Swann, Tanner, Gillard or the rest of the Labor leadership were held to the same account as Public Companies and their execs they would be facing prison time. No ifs no buts no maybes.

Go peddle your proaganda elsewhere.

I do have one question for you. Is there nothing this government has ever done or would ever do that you would disagree with? How can anyone take you seriously when you don’t respect yourself?

Harriet says:

02:06pm | 10/06/10

Gee Andrew your wish has been granted.Have you read todays news? As requested ,ASIC is reminding directors of mining companies of their responsibilities regarding statements on proposed mining tax.

antiperspirant says:

02:10pm | 10/06/10

Go find the governments lies pers.

Easy to do dear.

Front page news. Nice cheery pick though.

$38 million on advertising and they can’t sell it. All to a Labor party friend.

Just wow. Pigs meet trough.

persephone says:

03:48pm | 10/06/10

Andrew

Xstrata is not listed on the Australian stock exchange, so do not have to report to it and is not subject to its rules.

I have disagreed with the freezing of asylum seeker applications and with the low carbon emissions target (although I understand the reasons for both these decisions). I would also like to see more money going to Landcare and indeed to agriculture generally.

I’m still in the undecided box when it comes to the internet filter.

The kind of subject area where I disagree with the government is rarely covered by punch articles, however.

Be interested to hear where you disagree with Abbott - do tell.

Randal says:

04:15pm | 10/06/10

Now that’s not quite right is it Pers, there is no evidence that Xstrata has not paid in excess of 40% tax as they claim and even on conservative estimates they are paying well in excess of 30% tax, well above the Swan lie of 17%...

And those 60 contractors jobs are very real Pers, as well as the risk to thousands of jobs as pointed out by Xstrata statement on June 10:

Xstrata spokesman James Rickards told The Observer yesterday that Xstrata was a publicly listed company with a legal obligation to ensure information was accurate and not misleading.

“All of Xstrata’s public statements, including those regarding the suspension of two Queensland projects and the resulting impact on jobs, remain accurate,” Mr Rickards said.

“The two projects would have created over 3250 new jobs, which are now at risk. At Ernest Henry, approximately 60 contractors’ positions, originally planned to commence construction work within the next three months, have been cancelled.

“At Wandoan, we are relocating our permanent employees while the project is suspended. The equivalent of 150 full-time roles was scheduled to be created over the next 12 months (commencing from July) as part of the ramp-up of activities. These roles will no longer be required.”

But I guess in the ALP world of fantasy politics these 210 positions that would have been created in the next 6-12 months and the additional thousands of jobs hinging on this project are simply unimportant.

Likewise the 60 billion dollars worth of resources investment that has either been pulled or is currently on hold, and the 10’s of thousands of jobs that would have created through this investment are not real either as in that fantasy land this Really Stupid Profits Tax is good for investment.

I think it might be time to get the smelling salts outs and get you and your Labor pals back in the real world, as these are real jobs for real working families, amazing how unimportant these families become when it comes down to sucking as much tax out of the economy as possible.

Randal says:

04:23pm | 10/06/10

Pers, I think that you will find that Xstrata is listed on the London Stock Exchange, and can rest assured that they are no more lax in holding companies to account for making false or misleading statements to investors than the ASX.

There you are and you can know rest assured in the veracity of the claims of Xstrata, glad we sorted that one out for you, and I am very pleased to see you beginning to see the flaws in the Rudd government, just open those eyes even further and the full extent of their wretchedness will be there for you to see in all its horrid glory.

Christian Real says:

07:23pm | 14/06/10

This story was found in “The daily Telegraph”, ” News.com.au,”  “The courier Mail,” and other prominent newspapers
“Xstrata preparing work at ‘shelved’ Ernest henry project,says minister”
From AAP
June 12, 2010
“Xstrata has been accused of misleading Australian over the impact of the proposed super-profits tax after signing a contract for work on a project the company said had been shelved.”
“The mining giant has signed a $3.4 milion mining services contract with another company to manage a copper tailings facility at its Ernest Henry copper mine in Queensland.”
“The contract was signed last week on the same day the Anglo-Swiss company said it was suspending operations at the mine because of the impact of the resource super-profits tax (RSPT)”
Then another news item I picked up of the net on Xstrata:
“Xstrata attacks our Queensland communities”
(Steve Smyth’s blog december 4)
“I’ve become increasingly alarmed at Xstrata’s behaviour in our Queensland mining towns”
“It seems to me that Xstrata is acting to bust up the close-knit communities that have formed in towns like tieri and glenden, which house the workers and their families from the Oakey Creek and Newlands mines.”
“Xstrata is doing its best to buy up all assets and services,pushing local businesspeople out of town and making sure the money paid out in wages comes straight back into company coffers.”
In tieri, i’ve heard disturbing reports that employees and contractors are been pressured not to stay in or drink at the local hotel Xstrata unsuccessfully tried to buy. They already own pretty much everything else.”
This story was found at : http://www.xstratafacts.com/content/xstrata-attacks-our-queensland-communities

Colin P says:

10:32pm | 10/06/10

The tax will never get to print. It will never become law. Rudd hasn’t a hope in hell of getting it passed at referendum particularly in WA and QLD.

Colin P says:

10:30pm | 10/06/10

Go peg a mining lease, spend a few million, employ a few thousand people and you could be like her.

No! Then stop crying.

Chris Martin says:

10:06am | 11/06/10

Bang on Colin. This is not about feeling sorry for wealthy individuals. Moron’s like you Greg are just being sucked in yet again. Most likely because you have nothing and are envious of those that do. Most wealthy people are wealthy because they worked hard and/or took risks - they didn’t just sit on a pc bitching about those who had more than them.

antiperspirant says:

02:08pm | 10/06/10

Well duh.

They also borrowed $38 million to make sure we remember.

Evan Findlay says:

08:09pm | 10/06/10

I loved the ties and the suits and designer jeans. And Twiggy’s work shirt looked like he just picked it up from the dry cleaners. Talk about rent a crowds.

persephone says:

06:44pm | 10/06/10

Yes, I’ve heard of the Eureka stockade.

The miners were being charged at exactly the same rate, regardless of whether they were making a profit or not.

Sort of analogous to the royalty system.

So removing royalties and replacing them with a tax on profits would get the nod of approval from the Eureka stockaders, just as it is getting the nod from their spiritual heirs, the unionists.

Angry God says:

07:37pm | 10/06/10

Persephoney, the Royalties paid by mining companies are based on volume. So your analogy is totally wrong.

As for the Unions supporting the loss of jobs and the reduction of wages that the lefties are espousing, one wonders if the Union leadership is only eyeing a vacant seat as opposed to representing their fee paying members. They seem to be disconnected from the reality if they think that you can tax a nation to prosperity.

This tax will impact on those members who are contractors as they will be the first impacted as companies looking to manage their costs. That you find others loosing their job whilst you are paid to astroturf for the ALP a fair trade highlights your lack of moral fibre.

Companies will also look to their other assets in other countries where they will not be impacted by this grab required by an incompetant government who spend like overtly impacted by alcohol members of a naval service for poorly controlled projects that cost more than they should and now the cupboard has had its shelves chopped up for firewood.

antiperspirant says:

09:06pm | 10/06/10

Glad your so supportive of a Treasury computer model programmed with input from an environmentalist.

You really do not get the danger inherent here. This is an untried model. this is all based around assumptions. This is all brought to you by the people that talked the economy down because of the “inflation genie” that never saw the GFC that had to spend billions. well let us not be coy, watse billions to appease there agenda.

These are the people in charge of this this.

You should be afraid. Name one thing that Rudd has introduced that has gone according to plan. Bureaucratically they are an embarrassment.

This whole fiasco has followed one of Rudds 2 tricks he uses.

Find a cause or a problem where there was none. Exaggerate it. Bring it down to a class and or ideological war. Think that by being Kevin and superior everyone will follow you and the other 3 of the gang of 4. When it all blows up throw money at it to buy it off. Same as te Batt debacle. Same as the illegal immigrants debacle….same old same old.

It is boring and repetitive.

It is so obvious I can’t believe people still fall for it.

Colin P says:

10:24pm | 10/06/10

Actually there will be thousands of unemployed miners pretty soon. You can donate to their welfare fund.The magnates won’t need your help. They will be overseas by then. All you’ll have is Kevin Rudd and Wayne Swan. They need your help too. The bucket has run dry and they need to buy some votes.

Billy B says:

08:10am | 11/06/10

Sarcasm personified!

Alfred Deakin says:

12:15pm | 11/06/10

As if mining magnates care about the underlings! Over the years they have closed many mines and effectively shut down many towns when the mines became a little less profitable for them!

I love Xstrata saying they are stopping copper projects (wouldn’t have anything to do with the world’s falling price of copper!) while at the same time they are EXPANDING their coal projects in Queensland.

elle effe says:

01:59am | 11/06/10

Actually, Shane,, you may be more on the money than you realise. WA is very close to removing itself from the mainstream of Australia.  Feelings are running very high. And northern & central Queensland have huge issues with Brisbane and the southern states. Just as the Hunter region has big issues with Sydney.

This mining tax may be another unintended consequence for Labor in terms of national cohesiveness.